When you come from the fringe, and enter an economic system, you bring some chaos, street smarts, wisdom or some kind of non-system thinking with you. And to a certain extent, this energy can help the system grow and evolve, and compete more efficiently.
-,ÄúHoward Campbell,Äù, Poker without Cards
Ideology tries to integrate even the most radical acts
- taken from a cartoon of the same title, by the SI
,ÄúWake up Neo, there is no counterculture,Äù
- James Curcio, Culture-hacking
So, I was reading on Sunday a lovely little article on some awfully designed website that the Israeli government are coming up with new theoretical models for their operations. That in and of itself is not too worrying. I try to steer away from the whole Israel-Palestine issue, mainly because I have no good reason to stick my arm into a hornets nest and wave it around. However, the thing about Israel is while their recent military performance may have been poor, they do consider themselves under threat and so are always looking for an edge, especially a theoretical one for urban warfare.
However, when I see that they are using doctrines based on Deleuze, Debord, ,Äúpostmodern anarchists,Äù and ,Äúnomadic terrorists,Äù, I can't help but feel they are starting to make a move into our intellectual territory, coming towards the theories we ourselves use, the axioms we take for granted, but from totally the operate direction. In short, the co-option of our ideas and strategies, for the most Greyfaced of purposes ,Äì to restore order, as quickly and as smoothly as possible.
We committed one of the two sins when it came to thinking about politics. We knew they never meant well, but we had pretty much accepted they were stupid, too. At least, stupid enough to not have learnt from people like us. Yet, they have. While this doctrine may not have spread yet, it soon will and it will catch on like wildfire, because its exactly what is needed for the current political climate. Debord's concepts in particular are worrying, as they are the basis for Hakim Bey's writing (probably lumped under one of the postmodern anarchists, I suspect, with Lyotard). So, in other words, they're figuring out ways to deal with scale free networks, TAZ's, and swarming techniques that could conceivably be used to undermine, hollow out or collapse a state. Principle ideas in subversion are being turned on their head in order to aid state power and given whose hands that currently resides in, I cannot trust their motives.
Clearly, this is a problem.
For too long, I feel, we have been content to rest on our laurels. Discordianism has pretty much been at the centre of a lot of western agitation against the Powers That Be, if only indirectly. RAW and Thornley, along with others, helped build up this mystical, near mythical ,Äúcounterculture,Äù in direct opposition to current one, where common wisdom was questioned and new (or old) radical theories were floated. Again, with the early days of the internet, it was the Illuminatus! influenced hackers who were communicating on the BBS's. A network of sorts was in place and ideas were encouraged and swapped, for the little good they have done to date.
Every time a subversive text has proved its worth, it has been co-opted at its moment of failure. This is nothing new, of course, but it is worth noting. And while in many cases, this was simply to ride out the effects of those who aimed at the removal of the current system, someone has been dangerously smart and has gone back to those ideas, not with plans to use them for the original intent, but to prevent against them.
And they have other advantages on us. The texts we are talking about were mostly written in the late 70s, the 80s and the 90s. In fact, the Israeli courses almost look like a who's who of subversive modern philosophers, from Derrida to Foucault. Obviously not subversive enough, however. They also have hundreds of ,Äúshadow institutes,Äù where the bright and the patriotic are being paid to study this and come up with novel solutions to the problems of the modern world, problems often based within theories expressed in those books. Money, numbers and areas for practical trial runs.
The question of course is what is there to do about this?
Well, option one is to do nothing. Fade into irrelevance. Give up, admit we gave them a good run and go back to our television sets. Not bloody likely, but possible. Its disheartening when you realize the CoN is not only smart, its also very good at reversal, even of ideas of use to you. There is also the rather vague hope that eventually the militaries infected with these ideas will become hotbeds of sedition and subversion, but I can't see it happening.
Secondly, we could go obscure. Keep what we figure out away from the prying eyes of the various minions of Order and go with the idea that the unknown is what the CoN fears the most. Of course, the problem then becomes obvious. How do you go around attracting people to something so secretive? More importantly, how do you stop it from becoming just another elitist social club, like the Freemasons or the OTO?
Then there is choice number three ,Äì throw the guides away. Forget the entire counterculture movement, RAW, postmodernism, everything and go way out there, throwing out the rule book. Off the beaten track, into totally new theories, regain the edge we lost and have some sort of advantage again. While the soldier boys and tacticians keep their eyes on the now, we can concentrate on staying ahead of the curve. Since we have few worries of failed careers for not obeying orders or thinking the wrong thoughts in this regard, as well as not being bound by a current, active threat, we can put one over on the monkeys who are starting to catch up. Screw Crowley and Magick, memes and failed rebellions of the past. The only thing we should be looking at these for is to see how they failed, not why they sorta, half worked.
Thats how I see the options before us today. We can evolve and live up to our titles as neophiliacs, or we can stagnate and die. As always, the choice is change or perish.
This is awesomly awesome, Cain. I'll post a more detailed reply later, after I have some time to roll this around in my head, but definitely one of the best things I have read in awhile!
Ta muchly.
Of course, I was only, in my usual way, trying to shake things up and destroy a couple more Discordian sacred cows in attempt to get some new stuff rolling, but if it works, it works.
While you were ranting there, an idea occurred to me regarding this whole sad state of affairs. My mind went back into military mode and I saw the obvious advantages of co-opting subversive doctrine but then I looked beyond that.
Your opponent's defenses will always be optimized against the weapon he knows you have and, to a lesser degree, to the weapons he only thinks you may have. In this line of reasoning, then, it becomes apparent that the prudent thing to do in order to amplify our meager forces is to put forth a doctrine for all to see which, when optimized against, leaves several fatal flaws in your opponents armour. If done properly, these flaws should be recognized as acceptable from your opponent's defensive posture.
Naturally the converse is equally true. For this I look no further than my childhood friend, Br'er Rabbit. What we want is to let them convince themselves to attack a tar baby while simultaneously concluding that the worst thing they can do to us is toss us all into the briar patch.
So now I'm in search of a tar baby and a briar patch......
Heh, I knew there was another reason we kept you around. Good thinking.
I say, fuck ideology. Don't write anything down for the fuckers to co opt. Everyone lose their damn mind, do whatever the hell they want, and smash every institution they're sick of! Yes it's extreme, yes it's impractical, yes it's down right stupid to act so extremely, but I'll be damned if there's another halfassed intellectual circlejerk that never gets fucking anywhere! Look at what they're doing! Walmart's got secret police, the powers that be are creating a permanent underclass of anyone who's not them, and capitalism has become a sort of warped oligarchy! Don't you think that's fucking extreme? So how the fuck is going half way going to fix anything? Don't just make a TAZ, be a TAZ! Destroy the boring! Don't just sit in a fucking lotus position begging for enlightenment to come! Remember why you're alive and fuck some shit up! You may say it'll run out of steam, but not if we get it big enough to be self sustaining! Make it about youth culture! Give the kids something that keeps them from being the worst horror of them all, bored! The kids have the energy, and shit, look at the statistics, they're pouring more energy into volunteerism and their school life than ever before! The time is right to harness the power that is the young, and unleash hell!
ohhhh oohhhh
awesome rant...
....
ill have to post more.... hopefully tommorrow after work tommorrow morning though...
you missed the fourth (and most obvious) option.
ECH,
applying for a job with the Israeli Government
How about we give them an obvious threat with no obvious target?
I'm not talking Israel specifically, I mean 'them' in general.
But let's consider the Jewish situation. Right now the threat comes from palestine. That's a place. They can, quite easily, locate and strike against that place in retaliation for actions perpetrated against themselves. Now consider teh 'nation' of islam - the idea that they are not bounded by geographic region strikes me as one which has potential.
Nation of Discordia anyone?
Quote from: Random Probability on May 09, 2007, 02:52:35 AM
While you were ranting there, an idea occurred to me regarding this whole sad state of affairs. My mind went back into military mode and I saw the obvious advantages of co-opting subversive doctrine but then I looked beyond that.
Your opponent's defenses will always be optimized against the weapon he knows you have and, to a lesser degree, to the weapons he only thinks you may have. In this line of reasoning, then, it becomes apparent that the prudent thing to do in order to amplify our meager forces is to put forth a doctrine for all to see which, when optimized against, leaves several fatal flaws in your opponents armour. If done properly, these flaws should be recognized as acceptable from your opponent's defensive posture.
Naturally the converse is equally true. For this I look no further than my childhood friend, Br'er Rabbit. What we want is to let them convince themselves to attack a tar baby while simultaneously concluding that the worst thing they can do to us is toss us all into the briar patch.
So now I'm in search of a tar baby and a briar patch......
Good idea.
I'll put this all in the mind-pot and bring it to a boil... We'll see if it makes soup.
A threat with no obvious target? The USA got to that one long before you ... say it with CNN, now - TERRARISTS!
Yeah, I finally stopped just reading to post. Hey, and all that
I think all these ideas need to be mushed together. Here's my best effort, after reading the replies chronologically.
While risking the perils of a sort of 'secret society', we need to take a step back, out of the light and into the shadows. Almost taking on a form of greyfaced hierarchy, those in the shadows devise the phony doctrines and ideas, and disseminate them into the proper hotbeds (myspace loldiscordians maybe?), give it to the kids. LHX and ECH can write 'counter-culture' lyrics and anonymously send them to eminem and young jeezy. Get something with enough momentum, especially after the CoN has shifted it's defenses, and there will be a snap back to their old memes, reflexes kicking in, they can't fight two things at once. At least not two things so diametrically opposed. They'll have to choose, and the choice will hinge on which presents a greater threat. After the smoke clears, we can emerge from the shadows.
OK, but I ain't sending SHIT to Em or Jeezy.
ECH,
copyrights all his lyrics BEFORE he lets you pirates see them
I vote for option three, with the caveat that it's not necessary to destroy everything we have in order to build anew. We can evolve without starting from scratch. That shared history, those tired old memes, those ancient in-jokes, they're part of us and our tumultuous identity.
Yeah, we're gonna have to grow up past the 60s, past the PD, past Wilson, past the Black Iron Prison eventually, but I'm gonna keep my feet planted right here - worshiping Eris.
Call me crazy, but I want to see a popular Discordia. I want it to be a choice that average shmuck's actually heard of. And when it gets all full and sick with bobbies I'll be the first one to assassinate the polyfather, but right now we're so far out on the lunatic fringe you only meet other Discordians at crazy pagan festivals and that's neither my venue nor my type.
Cause I do think Discordia has something to offer to today's youth. There's a growing culture of bored, apathetic, restless kids who are fascinated by rebellion but don't know how or why, they just keep ducking and covering behind rebel memes like fashion and "counterculture", whatever that is.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on May 10, 2007, 05:12:12 PM
I vote for option three, with the caveat that it's not necessary to destroy everything we have in order to build anew. We can evolve without starting from scratch. That shared history, those tired old memes, those ancient in-jokes, they're part of us and our tumultuous identity.
Yeah, we're gonna have to grow up past the 60s, past the PD, past Wilson, past the Black Iron Prison eventually, but I'm gonna keep my feet planted right here - worshiping Eris.
Call me crazy, but I want to see a popular Discordia. I want it to be a choice that average shmuck's actually heard of. And when it gets all full and sick with bobbies I'll be the first one to assassinate the polyfather, but right now we're so far out on the lunatic fringe you only meet other Discordians at crazy pagan festivals and that's neither my venue nor my type.
Cause I do think Discordia has something to offer to today's youth. There's a growing culture of bored, apathetic, restless kids who are fascinated by rebellion but don't know how or why, they just keep ducking and covering behind rebel memes like fashion and "counterculture", whatever that is.
It has something to offer, true. The key is packaging. I think the basic concepts would be very appealing to a young person, especially one who's feeling he/she's losing their way, or drowning in their community or society. At the same time, a kid isn't going to want to look too geeky, thus the packaging comment. Kids still want to impress other kids, especially the opposite gender. Kind of hard to do if you are seen as the Wizard of Wierd.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 10, 2007, 05:17:34 PM
It has something to offer, true. The key is packaging. I think the basic concepts would be very appealing to a young person, especially one who's feeling he/she's losing their way, or drowning in their community or society. At the same time, a kid isn't going to want to look too geeky, thus the packaging comment. Kids still want to impress other kids, especially the opposite gender. Kind of hard to do if you are seen as the Wizard of Wierd.
suggestion:
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/bin/1559500409.jpg)
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 10, 2007, 05:17:34 PM
It has something to offer, true. The key is packaging. I think the basic concepts would be very appealing to a young person, especially one who's feeling he/she's losing their way, or drowning in their community or society. At the same time, a kid isn't going to want to look too geeky, thus the packaging comment. Kids still want to impress other kids, especially the opposite gender. Kind of hard to do if you are seen as the Wizard of Wierd.
Good Point. Most people who get into the occult and other fringe ideas do so becuase their looking for something that makes them unique and hopefully important. Like everyone, they want to find and fill their own nitche (sp.) That's why the CoN has been winning so long, they perpetuate and control the mainstream, realizing that most people think those who are interested or involved in fringe subcultures are wierd and therefore undesireable/evil/wrong/etc.
And it's true, we are pretty weird.
If you want discordianism to catch you gotta make it look cool, at least in Western Societies.
The CoN controls the counterculture. FACT. Don't believe me? Mouth off about how shit Crowley was, or how Burroughs wrote some awful crap and wait until you get ostracized. Even better, look at what happened when James Curcio helped bring ARG's to the mainstream. Its a rotten, fetid structure all the way down and so long as we rely on yesterday's idols we are prematurely killing tomorrow's heroes.
Solution?
I mean, I know any entrenched idea, no matter how radical, will eventually show the same behaviors as the mainstream, but how does one avoid this?
planning the way to avoid it is futile. then you're inevitably going to build on it, using it as a foundation.
you have to force yourself to adapt faster than the CoN can corner you.
and the only way to do that is through intentional self-sabotage.
Self-Trolling?
Quote from: vexati0n on May 10, 2007, 08:22:32 PM
planning the way to avoid it is futile. then you're inevitably going to build on it, using it as a foundation.
you have to force yourself to adapt faster than the CoN can corner you.
and the only way to do that is through intentional self-sabotage.
seems like a constant stream of new-blood would be necessary for this, or at least a vital component. To help adapt.
Quote from: Cain on May 10, 2007, 08:13:22 PM
The CoN controls the counterculture. FACT. Don't believe me? Mouth off about how shit Crowley was, or how Burroughs wrote some awful crap and wait until you get ostracized. Even better, look at what happened when James Curcio helped bring ARG's to the mainstream. Its a rotten, fetid structure all the way down and so long as we rely on yesterday's idols we are prematurely killing tomorrow's heroes.
:mittens:
Quote from: vexati0n on May 10, 2007, 08:22:32 PM
planning the way to avoid it is futile. then you're inevitably going to build on it, using it as a foundation.
you have to force yourself to adapt faster than the CoN can corner you.
and the only way to do that is through intentional self-sabotage.
nice
<rant forthcoming>
Quote from: LMNO on May 10, 2007, 08:15:44 PM
Solution?
I mean, I know any entrenched idea, no matter how radical, will eventually show the same behaviors as the mainstream, but how does one avoid this?
I guess the depth of the issue is a surprise to me. I talk to the young all the time, from all mindsets, and lead them to where I want them and allow them to think it was their thought process that did it. Fresh blood is always important. The other point is for something to be permanent it must be fluid, changeable, adaptable. And so must the people involved. Last point is misdirection. The stage magicians trick, wave something shiny over while you're working over there.
Excellent points Cain.
perhaps its not the idea that needs to be radical inasmuch as the approach to handling and developing new ideas is radical
part of the problem is this:
although every waking moment is, technically, unpredictable, what we are experiencing right now is a situation where there is a illusion of predictability
to the point of dependency on this predictability
the counter argument that i often hear to this is that you cannot build anything without some dependable foundation
the thing is - that makes sense as well
the trick is to determine WHAT is actually dependable
there is stability in motion
order/disorder balance
Quote from: Cain on May 10, 2007, 08:13:22 PM
The CoN controls the counterculture. FACT. Don't believe me? Mouth off about how shit Crowley was, or how Burroughs wrote some awful crap and wait until you get ostracized. Even better, look at what happened when James Curcio helped bring ARG's to the mainstream. Its a rotten, fetid structure all the way down and so long as we rely on yesterday's idols we are prematurely killing tomorrow's heroes.
Do you mean getting ostracized by those within the counter-culture? If you "Mouth off about how shit Crowley was, or how Burroughs wrote some awful crap" within a subculture that identifies itself and supports these figureheads, of course you're going to be ostracized.
Just because a counter-culture may be opposed to the mainstream doesn't mean that it's free from all the bullshit that plagues the mainstream too. People already talked about the elitest Magickal orders, similar to the Yacht/ Country clubs of popular culture. There's rivalries, disagreements, and yes, hardcore popularity contest(Think Mathers-Crowley.) Plus the counter culture isn't free of idiots, as a matter of fact, the fringe population has given birth to some of the biggest dumbasses of our time. However, this isn't always the case. As we all know, many(if not most) of the greatest geniuses of our time were once considered fringe idealist. The trick is to have the wisdom to know the difference.
(http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/japanese-relocation/images/children-pledge.gif)
This thread needs more
(http://www.pledge.com/i/prod_multisurface.jpg)
pledge.
REJACK:
A good question in considering this idea is; What happens should we choose to shift in our methods? How many people will turn away from what discordianism would become, because it's no longer their flavor?
Half of me wants to say Well, fuck them, then. If they can't hang, let them find something else. However, if we assume this mentality, how long until it takes a shift I don't like, or you don't like? How long until we have a plethora of discordian sects, and a crippling amount of in-fighting?
I suppose you could argue that this is already the case, there are the Loveshades, the Mahadjiqkal Erisians, the Myspacers, us PD.com freaks, subgenii, etc. In my opinion, these groups are still working towards a shared goal, waking up cabbages, and having fun doing it. The last thing we need is to end up cancelling each other out.
Stick apart but work together.
Quote from: cyberus on May 11, 2007, 05:13:01 AM
REJACK:
A good question in considering this idea is; What happens should we choose to shift in our methods? How many people will turn away from what discordianism would become, because it's no longer their flavor?
Half of me wants to say Well, fuck them, then. If they can't hang, let them find something else. However, if we assume this mentality, how long until it takes a shift I don't like, or you don't like? How long until we have a plethora of discordian sects, and a crippling amount of in-fighting?
I suppose you could argue that this is already the case, there are the Loveshades, the Mahadjiqkal Erisians, the Myspacers, us PD.com freaks, subgenii, etc. In my opinion, these groups are still working towards a shared goal, waking up cabbages, and having fun doing it. The last thing we need is to end up cancelling each other out.
Stick apart but work together.
We need to get the Pastafarians and Last Thursdayists on board, and then go "freep" the hell out of MSNBC's comments sections, en masse.
I think what the original dudes were thinking with the anti-institutionalist approach of "stick apart", was that a decentralized approach is less fragile to centralized controls, which was a main concern of early Discordians.
Quote from: Felix on May 11, 2007, 05:20:02 AM
I think what the original dudes were thinking with the anti-institutionalist approach of "stick apart", was that a decentralized approach is less fragile to centralized controls, which was a main concern of early Discordians.
Yep. Back in the bad old days, the mods and their pals used to fuck people over, and then claim that they were just "sticking apart".
Never mind that "sticking apart" was a warning to avoid exactly what they were doing.
a decentralized network is always better, not just for early Discordians. and institutions still suck, probably more now than they did in the 60s.
Quote from: cyberus on May 11, 2007, 05:13:01 AM
REJACK:
Stick apart but work together.
Better...Stick apart but
fight together.
Together meaning in unison against a group as well as against each other.
If anything we should do more to endeavor that none of us can be linked together by an institution.
Quote from: Felix on May 11, 2007, 05:35:18 AM
If anything we should do more to endeavor that none of us can be linked together by an institution.
Nonlocal quantum telepathy ftw!
Quote from: Felix on May 11, 2007, 05:35:18 AM
If anything we should do more to endeavor that none of us can be linked together by an institution.
I personally think the best method of organizing without organizing was mentioned in PD and referenced too in RAW's ILL Trilogy. The idea of individual groups(Cabals) composed of discordians who are in a group to accomplish the same discordian goal. Each group has a different goal, some just fucking outlandish, but every effort/action is related in that it is for the discordian cause(Whatever the fuck that is.)
The method is similar to one of the most ingenious civilizations in history, the ancient Greeks. You see the ancient Greeks never had a centralized government, or any soul authority of any kind. They lived in their own city-states known as the "Polis." Athens was a place no bigger than todays medium-sized cities, but its incredibly small population is responsible for some of the greatest works and techniques in art, architecture, theater, and especially government. The Athenians had an open discussion forum that was directed by a chairperson who was rotated every time. Decisions would be made by a vote or obvious knowing support for one law or another. The open forum was fuel for ingenious creativity and exchange of ideas, some of the best in history.
The Spartans were different, more disciplined and more bureaucratic. However, they did develop methods of war and espionage that are still taught and respected by Generals today. They were Greeks, but they had their own flare that was far different then that of the Athenians and many other polis's. The scattered and divided Greek "Nation" was a pinnacle in human thought and philosophy.
They were successful because they kept the city sates small and manageable to prevent the bullshit that's created out of population control. Obviously the attitudes and beliefs of modern day discordians are going to be far different than those of the ancient Greeks, but if we use the same method of individual outlets for creativity and operation while at the same time fighting and teaching eachother together, we just may well free the world, or save the whales, or find jimmy hoffa, or something.
I'm high as shit right now. Will comment tomorrow.
Quote from: Felix on May 11, 2007, 05:35:18 AM
If anything we should do more to endeavor that none of us can be linked together by an institution.
PLEDGE.
Quote from: vexati0n on May 11, 2007, 05:28:26 AM
a decentralized network is always better, not just for early Discordians. and institutions still suck, probably more now than they did in the 60s.
Troof. We really need to pick up on the 4GW style thinking more. I know I push it hard, but like Roger said, if we can get the last Thursdayists and Pastafarians on board, we'll be working much closer to that sort of goal.
Expressed thusly:
1. They're numerical superiority
2. Our theoretical operational ability
3. Plausible promise
4. Mass swarming attacks against Greyfaced minions
5. ???????????
6. PROFIT!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2007, 06:41:40 AM
Quote from: Felix on May 11, 2007, 05:35:18 AM
If anything we should do more to endeavor that none of us can be linked together by an institution.
PLEDGE.
I was writing that before he posted.
Quote from: Cain on May 11, 2007, 10:31:37 AM
Quote from: vexati0n on May 11, 2007, 05:28:26 AM
a decentralized network is always better, not just for early Discordians. and institutions still suck, probably more now than they did in the 60s.
Troof. We really need to pick up on the 4GW style thinking more. I know I push it hard, but like Roger said, if we can get the last Thursdayists and Pastafarians on board, we'll be working much closer to that sort of goal.
Expressed thusly:
1. They're numerical superiority
2. Our theoretical operational ability
3. Plausible promise
4. Mass swarming attacks against Greyfaced minions
5. ???????????
6. PROFIT!
What? The pastafarians are worse than the Myspace Discordians, and most of them, literally, are 12 years old.
Quote from: Idem on June 06, 2007, 09:31:41 PM
What? The pastafarians are worse than the Myspace Discordians, and most of them, literally, are 12 years old.
Our Lady of Discord stands and from one hand she releases every species, born through surviving the chaotic whim of nature; from the other she draws in every species as it falls to chaos and becomes extinct.
Evolution means survival of the fittest Children of Chaos.
The Pastafarians and the MySpace Discordians... INRI.
If we can be warmed by that fire, shall we deny the fuel?
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
Muncher of The ChaoAcorn
POEE of The Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
What the fuck did you just say? Talk straight and I'll get back to you later.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 06, 2007, 11:47:11 PM
Quote from: Idem on June 06, 2007, 09:31:41 PM
What? The pastafarians are worse than the Myspace Discordians, and most of them, literally, are 12 years old.
Our Lady of Discord stands and from one hand she releases every species, born through surviving the chaotic whim of nature; from the other she draws in every species as it falls to chaos and becomes extinct.
Evolution means survival of the fittest Children of Chaos.
The Pastafarians and the MySpace Discordians... INRI.
If we can be warmed by that fire, shall we deny the fuel?
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
Muncher of The ChaoAcorn
POEE of The Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
*scratches head*
This is a really weird metaphore for evolution.
Also, it seems you are talking about it in a social context. Mixed metaphores then. Biological evolution cannot be equated with social change. Its not only stupid, its immoral, the kind of thing that spawns Nazi science.
And social darwinism is a bolus of fecal matter.
Still, I like some of it. You can do better. Keep it up.
What do you mean INRI? Its not something I've heard of before.
Also, the Pastafarians etc make perfect dupes. We do all the thinking, they do all the legwork. Its pretty easy.
Quote from: Cain on June 07, 2007, 01:48:13 PM
What do you mean INRI? Its not something I've heard of before.
Teh romans wrote it above the head of some essene fuckhead they nailed to a pole. Dont really mean anything unless you're a specific kind of braindead assmuppet.
I thought they wrote "King of the Jews"? Or are we talking about another Essene?
The words were "Iesvs Nazarenvs Rex Ivdaeorvm." Latin uses "I" instead of the English "J", and "V" instead of "U" (i.e., Jesus Nazarenus Rex Judaeorum). The English translation is "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews."
-ChristianAnswers.net
Ah.
Still, I say the Pastafarians etc make good cannon fodder, given the right direction.
Quote from: Cain on June 07, 2007, 01:55:11 PM
I thought they wrote "King of the Jews"? Or are we talking about another Essene?
No that would have been if the english had nailed him up. Romans spoke and wrote in latin.
Quote from: Cain on June 07, 2007, 01:48:13 PM
What do you mean INRI? Its not something I've heard of before.
Also, the Pastafarians etc make perfect dupes. We do all the thinking, they do all the legwork. Its pretty easy.
INRI may reference the 2000 year old dead Jew... but I meant it in the alchemical sense,
Igne Natura Renovatur Integra , By Fire All Nature Is Perfectly Renewed. Thus through the fires of Chaos, all life is perfectly renewed through the survival of the best, the most fit. So too with iron, gold and sliver, through fire their ores are purified. Finally, with Pastafarians, MySpace Discordians and the rest... there appears to me good reason to use them as dupes, foot soldiers, canon fodder, because in our war... the ones that fail, just go back to writing lame crap on MySpace. Those that are purified by the experiences then progresses from the Land of Thud. For it is not in the reading of the PD that enlightenment is found. The PD is simply the product of an experience of enlightenment. Rather, it is in the experience that enlightenment is found, it is experience that is the Alchemical fire that purifies.
Hey, are you the Ratatosk that hangs out with Ignatious?
Quote from: LMNO on June 07, 2007, 03:30:52 PM
Hey, are you the Ratatosk that hangs out with Ignatious?
A good Discordian never admits to hanging out with Ignatious. However, my past experiences as Ratatosk can be found to occasionally cross with that of His Dry Roasted Holiness.
Ah.
Your initial post makes sense, then.
Quote from: Idem on June 07, 2007, 12:44:19 AM
What the fuck did you just say? Talk straight and I'll get back to you later.
I'm not John McCain.
Quote from: LMNO on June 07, 2007, 03:49:44 PM
Ah.
Your initial post makes sense, then.
How so?
If the podcasts are any indication, you seem to be the type of Discordian that talks about Eris and the glorious delightful chaos of the pinealglandfnord23.
Which leads to clarity regarding you post about evolution and Eris.
Quote from: LMNO on June 07, 2007, 04:03:40 PM
If the podcasts are any indication, you seem to be the type of Discordian that talks about Eris and the glorious delightful chaos of the pinealglandfnord23.
Which leads to clarity regarding you post about evolution and Eris.
Sometimes, when its useful. ;-)
Hi Ratatosk! I remember you from 23ae!
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 07, 2007, 04:45:13 PM
Hi Ratatosk! I remember you from 23ae!
Ah yes, though my workings with Eris have led me from posting much recently... that, I think may change.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on June 07, 2007, 01:16:19 AM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 06, 2007, 11:47:11 PM
Quote from: Idem on June 06, 2007, 09:31:41 PM
What? The pastafarians are worse than the Myspace Discordians, and most of them, literally, are 12 years old.
Our Lady of Discord stands and from one hand she releases every species, born through surviving the chaotic whim of nature; from the other she draws in every species as it falls to chaos and becomes extinct.
Evolution means survival of the fittest Children of Chaos.
The Pastafarians and the MySpace Discordians... INRI.
If we can be warmed by that fire, shall we deny the fuel?
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
Muncher of The ChaoAcorn
POEE of The Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
*scratches head*
This is a really weird metaphore for evolution.
Also, it seems you are talking about it in a social context. Mixed metaphores then. Biological evolution cannot be equated with social change. Its not only stupid, its immoral, the kind of thing that spawns Nazi science.
And social darwinism is a bolus of fecal matter.
Still, I like some of it. You can do better. Keep it up.
Evolution, rather "Survival of the Fittest", works because of Chaos. If the past several million years had been an ordered sort of environment, then the 'not fittest' would have had no disadvantage. If there hadn't been drastic, immediate and chaotic changes, then there would have been no need to evolve. Thus through Chaos (symbolized by Eris) do all species come into existence. However, it is that same Chaos that wipes out entire species. It is a world thrust into Chaos that destroys entire lines of DNA. Thus through Chaos (symbolized by Eris) do all species eventually die out and become extinct.
In a culture that is not chaotic, that is not challenged by absurdity, there is no reason for a subculture... or subcultures or countercultures. It is through Chaos that some idiots believed that they should teach Creationism and thus it is through Chaos that someone was inspired to write an epistle of the FSM and in this the Pastafarians were born. Likewise for the dadaists, Discordians, Sub Geniuses, Goths etc etc etc each exist (or existed) because there was chaotic pressure placed on the culture, spawning a subculture (which fit a niche). In Chaos each of these will grow into something more, or devolve into extinction.
I do not say "Wipe out the Pastafarian, for he is less than us." I do not say "Gas the Goth, for she is less than us."
I say, run everyone through the fire of Action, Discordian, Pastafarian, Goth and SubGenius. Allow each to be tested in the purifying flame of Actually Doing Something. Do not sneer at the 12 year old ZOMG FSM! or the 23 year old ZOMG FNORD! In the action each will have their own tests, and the test will purify them... whats left may be Iron, Gold or nothing more than dross.
From my experience, every Golden Apple has a Golden worm hiding in it somewhere... its just a matter of burning away the crap.
Igne Natura Renovatur Integra
I liked that post.
One word of caution... BMW is a biologist, and takes evolution fairly seriously, and fairly literally, too. I have noticed. Sometimes. Far be it from me to put words in his mouth, of course.
Of course.
Quote from: LMNO on June 07, 2007, 06:31:25 PM
I liked that post.
One word of caution... BMW is a biologist, and takes evolution fairly seriously, and fairly literally, too. I have noticed. Sometimes. Far be it from me to put words in his mouth, of course.
Of course.
I'll be interested in BMW's opinion on my metaphor then... I'd also be interested in a test drive as I currently have an Eagle and hear that BMW's are much nicer.
Quote from: LMNO on June 07, 2007, 06:31:25 PM
I liked that post.
One word of caution... BMW is a biologist, and takes evolution fairly seriously, and fairly literally, too. I have noticed. Sometimes. Far be it from me to put words in his mouth, of course.
Of course.
Its true. I'm gonna read through and critique later tonight, though no worries, I like your style Rat. For the moment, I am gonna ride home from work and try to beat the huge storm heading my direction.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on June 07, 2007, 09:29:05 PM
Its true. I'm gonna read through and critique later tonight, though no worries, I like your style Rat. For the moment, I am gonna ride home from work and try to beat the huge storm heading my direction.
Well, hell.. I take style over substance any day!
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 07, 2007, 06:26:38 PM
Evolution, rather "Survival of the Fittest", works because of Chaos. If the past several million years had been an ordered sort of environment, then the 'not fittest' would have had no disadvantage. If there hadn't been drastic, immediate and chaotic changes, then there would have been no need to evolve. Thus through Chaos (symbolized by Eris) do all species come into existence. However, it is that same Chaos that wipes out entire species. It is a world thrust into Chaos that destroys entire lines of DNA. Thus through Chaos (symbolized by Eris) do all species eventually die out and become extinct.
The causes for evolution are two: by natural selection (accumulation of traits by inducing greater probability of survival) and genetic drift. Incidentally, when real biologists ( and not these intelligent design wannabes) talk about evolutionary debate, this is the big one. What percent of evolution is caused by drift, and what percent by natural selection? No one is really sure, because its such a slow process. On the otherhand, there are arguements for a process called punctuated equilibrium, where evolution over long periods is generally slow, until some sort of large scale change occurs, and there is a very fast period of evolutionary change. Extinction events seem to be followed by such events. Again, remember this is still on a million year scale. I believe that model would follow closest with your origina assumption. However, you use the word chaos, by which I believe you mean random events. Drift would certainly be a process such as that, but natural selection is most definatly not ruled by chance. Thats a mistake many people make when looking at evolution. For those traits related to greater survival, they will tend to be conserved, whereas those which are negative will not, simply by the process that those that are not fit will not survive to reproduce, and those that are will be the once most likely to reproduce. Like I said, a non random process. Another mistake that is often made is where evolution occurs, at the population and metapopulation level. Genetically speaking, individuals do not evolve (unless you are talking bacterium and horisonal gene transfer, but lets leave that alone). Only a population changes over time, in the overal genetic composition of its individuals accross generations.
Now, because I got off on a tangent, let me address your "coming into existance" line. To me, this speaks of the believe that species spontaineously come about. In truth, the evolution of a new species is nothing more than the splitting of one into two or more. When these two no longer breed for behavioral or environmental reasons, or cannot due to genetic variance, they are considered two species. Neither is actually "new". I think too many people are under the impression that species evolution comes about by abrupt mutation, as in the "chimp becomes a human" idea. Which is of course not true. Species evolution comes about by millions of years of genetic accumulation of traits. What seems so much obvious differences between two sister species started out with a subtle splitting of their common ansestor. It prolly wasn't so obvious at first.
Now for the "extinction" line. Extinction could be attributed to one of two phenomena, either by catastrophe, or by ecological exclusion. The first is very simple, it brings to mind the impact extinction of the Cretaceous, or the great extinction at the end of the Cambrium. Both were likey caused by disruptive catastrophe, likely what you reffer to as chaos in extinction. The second is a complex and non-random process whereas competition and predation comes into play. Its an ecological process, and generally a very slow one. Ecology is a whole other topic, and I really don't have time to go into its complexity here.
And, obviously not all species go extinct. Otherwise Life would not be on this planet today. Its a continuous chain stretching back to the originating ansestral organisms, possibly like the archea of today, probably much simpler.
If you want to compair that to cultural evolution, go ahead, just realize its a terrible mixed metaphor from my perspective. Its like comparing apples and oranges, the processes are completly different, the only similarity being that things change.
Thanks for the viewpoint BMW, I suppose like the rest of the stuff I write, this is only true in some sense :fnord:
I didn't mean it as a full explanation of the entire process of evolution, but perhaps I should rework it before adding it to any of my writings :)
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 08, 2007, 02:53:09 PM
Thanks for the viewpoint BMW, I suppose like the rest of the stuff I write, this is only true in some sense :fnord:
I didn't mean it as a full explanation of the entire process of evolution, but perhaps I should rework it before adding it to any of my writings :)
I find it quite interesting that in your writings actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally. The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians. Like the kings clothes, our dear people are walking around in their order. As long as everybody is telling each other how wonderful their orderly clothes are, there will be order. Then it doesn't matter if the clothes are covered with anarchy, liberal, or even Discordian prints, as long as people have their order in their mind, there is no fun for Eris.
Quote from: SBCU on June 09, 2007, 09:16:25 AM
I find it quite interesting that in your writings actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally. The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians. Like the kings clothes, our dear people are walking around in their order. As long as everybody is telling each other how wonderful their orderly clothes are, there will be order. Then it doesn't matter if the clothes are covered with anarchy, liberal, or even Discordian prints, as long as people have their order in their mind, there is no fun for Eris.
I find it interesting that you interpreted my statements in such a way.
actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally. Maybe. I'm not sure that I said anywhere that "everybody is right", nor am I at all sure I think "everybody is right", in fact I'm not even sure what they're supposedly right about...
The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians.The teachings of Discordia tell us that we shouldn't believe the teachings of Discordia. However, if we were to examine the PD as useful, then consider the following:
1. I don't think Grey man made the Order. From my reading of the PD, the Greyfaced Hunchbrain looked around, saw order and decided that the Whole Universe was ordered. He didn't invent, create or otherwise make order... he simply saw order and ignored chaos (something that some Discordians do in reverse).
B. Order and Chaos can be described as two sides of the Sacred Chao, existing in a constant balance of "active wobbling". That is, an act of discord, will be balanced by an act of order, while an act of order will be balanced by an act of chaos. If order is not balanced, or if chaos is not balanced then the Chao tips and tipping a Chao isn't nearly as fun as rednecks make it out to be.
III.
The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians Don't fall under the Eristic Delusion. Neither Order nor Chaos are necessarily illusion... and both Order and Chaos may well be illusion... if you cut open a Golden apple, you'll usually find a pentagon inside. Order and Chaos can be considered as games we can play, they're ways to arrange the pebbles of Starbuck. We can see them as points on a pentagram, or points on a pentagon, or just a bunch of busted rock scattered about the ground. To presume that there is One True view of reality (either Chaos OR Order) then we fall to Aristotle and his asinine two-valued logic trap.
Four - People with order in their mind tend to be great fun for Eris and all of her Discordian acolytes. If everyone had nothing but Chaos in the brain, then acts of Discord would provide no primer for thought. Without the Greyface, there appears no Hodge to match our Podge.
- Every Man Woman and Child is a Pope of the Erisian Movement (even the Greyfaced Hunchbrains). Every Man, Woman and Child plays on the Hodge side, the Podge side, both sides or sits in the middle like a confused chipmunk.
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Muncher of the ChaoAcorn
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
POEE of the Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 11, 2007, 05:12:29 PM
Quote from: SBCU on June 09, 2007, 09:16:25 AM
I find it quite interesting that in your writings actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally. The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians. Like the kings clothes, our dear people are walking around in their order. As long as everybody is telling each other how wonderful their orderly clothes are, there will be order. Then it doesn't matter if the clothes are covered with anarchy, liberal, or even Discordian prints, as long as people have their order in their mind, there is no fun for Eris.
I find it interesting that you interpreted my statements in such a way.
actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally.
Maybe. I'm not sure that I said anywhere that "everybody is right", nor am I at all sure I think "everybody is right", in fact I'm not even sure what they're supposedly right about...
The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians.
The teachings of Discordia tell us that we shouldn't believe the teachings of Discordia. However, if we were to examine the PD as useful, then consider the following:
1. I don't think Grey man made the Order. From my reading of the PD, the Greyfaced Hunchbrain looked around, saw order and decided that the Whole Universe was ordered. He didn't invent, create or otherwise make order... he simply saw order and ignored chaos (something that some Discordians do in reverse).
B. Order and Chaos can be described as two sides of the Sacred Chao, existing in a constant balance of "active wobbling". That is, an act of discord, will be balanced by an act of order, while an act of order will be balanced by an act of chaos. If order is not balanced, or if chaos is not balanced then the Chao tips and tipping a Chao isn't nearly as fun as rednecks make it out to be.
III. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians Don't fall under the Eristic Delusion. Neither Order nor Chaos are necessarily illusion... and both Order and Chaos may well be illusion... if you cut open a Golden apple, you'll usually find a pentagon inside. Order and Chaos can be considered as games we can play, they're ways to arrange the pebbles of Starbuck. We can see them as points on a pentagram, or points on a pentagon, or just a bunch of busted rock scattered about the ground. To presume that there is One True view of reality (either Chaos OR Order) then we fall to Aristotle and his asinine two-valued logic trap.
Four - People with order in their mind tend to be great fun for Eris and all of her Discordian acolytes. If everyone had nothing but Chaos in the brain, then acts of Discord would provide no primer for thought. Without the Greyface, there appears no Hodge to match our Podge.
- Every Man Woman and Child is a Pope of the Erisian Movement (even the Greyfaced Hunchbrains). Every Man, Woman and Child plays on the Hodge side, the Podge side, both sides or sits in the middle like a confused chipmunk.
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Muncher of the ChaoAcorn
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
POEE of the Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
:mittens:
Fuck yeah.
Quote from: SBCU on June 09, 2007, 09:16:25 AM
I find it quite interesting that in your writings actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally. The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians. Like the kings clothes, our dear people are walking around in their order. As long as everybody is telling each other how wonderful their orderly clothes are, there will be order. Then it doesn't matter if the clothes are covered with anarchy, liberal, or even Discordian prints, as long as people have their order in their mind, there is no fun for Eris.
HOW DOES THAT MENU TASTE?
Disorder is just as much an "illusion" as order is.
damn.
Rat, I give my unofficial title of Resident Discordian Theologian to you.
Have fun with it, mind the spikey bits, and pay no attention to the smell.
yeah, I like this guy. he's exactly what people who are hung up on the symbolism need.
Quote from: LMNO on June 11, 2007, 05:30:36 PM
Rat, I give my unofficial title of Resident Discordian Theologian to you.
Have fun with it, mind the spikey bits, and pay no attention to the smell.
(http://engrish.com/image/engrish/dangerengrish.jpg)
Rat, I officially salute you. Cheers, chap!
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 11, 2007, 05:12:29 PM
People with order in their mind tend to be great fun for Eris and all of her Discordian acolytes. If everyone had nothing but Chaos in the brain, then acts of Discord would provide no primer for thought.
That is pretty freaking important.
Life would become awfully fucking boring if all of a sudden everyone decided chaos was sweet. Without Greyfaces, as it were, how would we get our jollies? :eek: I don't even want to think about such a thing!
Besides, philosophical homogenization is never any fun, no matter how much you dig your philosophy.
Of course, even illusions can kill, if you believe in them enough.
And its fun to use them to mess with the heads of others. But so long as you know they're not real, its all OK.
OFUK, I'm regressing. :sad:
Quote from: Darth Cupcake on June 11, 2007, 05:39:05 PM
Besides, philosophical homogenization is never any fun, no matter how much you dig your philosophy.
Indeed, all philosophies are just models, maps, metaphors of possible answers.... "Nonsense AS Salvation", makes a far different philosophical argument than "Nonsense IS Salvation". Nonsense, Discordianism, Chaos are potential ways to interpret our perceptions of reality. It doesn't make them the best way, nor necessarily the right way (or even a right way)... its just an option (one which most of us, here, seem to like).
I think...
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 11, 2007, 05:53:21 PM
Quote from: Darth Cupcake on June 11, 2007, 05:39:05 PM
Besides, philosophical homogenization is never any fun, no matter how much you dig your philosophy.
Indeed, all philosophies are just models, maps, metaphors of possible answers.... "Nonsense AS Salvation", makes a far different philosophical argument than "Nonsense IS Salvation". Nonsense, Discordianism, Chaos are potential ways to interpret our perceptions of reality. It doesn't make them the best way, nor necessarily the right way (or even a right way)... its just an option (one which most of us, here, seem to like).
I think...
NOOOOOOOOOOO!
ITS 100% CORRECT AND HAS BEEN SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME! NOW YOU DIE, HERETIC!
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 11, 2007, 05:53:21 PM
Quote from: Darth Cupcake on June 11, 2007, 05:39:05 PM
Besides, philosophical homogenization is never any fun, no matter how much you dig your philosophy.
Indeed, all philosophies are just models, maps, metaphors of possible answers.... "Nonsense AS Salvation", makes a far different philosophical argument than "Nonsense IS Salvation". Nonsense, Discordianism, Chaos are potential ways to interpret our perceptions of reality. It doesn't make them the best way, nor necessarily the right way (or even a right way)... its just an option (one which most of us, here, seem to like).
I think...
This post makes me happy. 8)
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 11, 2007, 05:12:29 PM
The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians.
The teachings of Discordia tell us that we shouldn't believe the teachings of Discordia. However, if we were to examine the PD as useful, then consider the following:
1. I don't think Grey man made the Order. From my reading of the PD, the Greyfaced Hunchbrain looked around, saw order and decided that the Whole Universe was ordered. He didn't invent, create or otherwise make order... he simply saw order and ignored chaos (something that some Discordians do in reverse).
B. Order and Chaos can be described as two sides of the Sacred Chao, existing in a constant balance of "active wobbling". That is, an act of discord, will be balanced by an act of order, while an act of order will be balanced by an act of chaos. If order is not balanced, or if chaos is not balanced then the Chao tips and tipping a Chao isn't nearly as fun as rednecks make it out to be.
(snip)
can i just be slightly anal and point out:
chaos = order + disorder
you are confusing chaos with disorder. it's a manner of terminology, not more. but it helps. at least for keeping my head a bit straight in this.
chaos = order + disorder.
order and disorder are both sides of the same coin, the sacred chao, which is (defined somewhere, jokingly as) "one unit of chaos".
otherwise i agree with what you just said :) it's just that things get hopelessly muddled if we start thinking out from different ideas of words, if you get my point (and that's sometimes already hard enough, not being a native speaker, versus some of the cunning linguists on this board)
Quote from: triple zero on June 11, 2007, 08:59:14 PM
can i just be slightly anal and point out:
chaos = order + disorder
you are confusing chaos with disorder. it's a manner of terminology, not more. but it helps. at least for keeping my head a bit straight in this.
chaos = order + disorder.
order and disorder are both sides of the same coin, the sacred chao, which is (defined somewhere, jokingly as) "one unit of chaos".
otherwise i agree with what you just said :) it's just that things get hopelessly muddled if we start thinking out from different ideas of words, if you get my point (and that's sometimes already hard enough, not being a native speaker, versus some of the cunning linguists on this board)
If it works for you... SINK IT!!!!
;-)
i never actually really "got" the "SINK" thing from the PD, btw. care to explain a little?
Quote from: triple zero on June 11, 2007, 09:21:05 PM
i never actually really "got" the "SINK" thing from the PD, btw. care to explain a little?
I don't know if it's really anything to "get."
It's just fun to throw stuff in the water and say it's something else. I like to go down to the beach near my mum's house, walk out on the jetty with a bunch of rocks, and throw them in the water when I'm pissed off. (Even if I throw terribly.)
Example: "I SANK MY SENIOR THESIS!" or "I SANK MY EX-BOYFRIEND!" or "I SANK US FOREIGN POLICY!"
Etc. Sink whatever as needed.
Quote from: triple zero on June 11, 2007, 09:21:05 PM
i never actually really "got" the "SINK" thing from the PD, btw. care to explain a little?
The 'Sink' you talk about is not the 'Sink' you play!!!
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 11, 2007, 09:47:01 PM
Quote from: triple zero on June 11, 2007, 09:21:05 PM
i never actually really "got" the "SINK" thing from the PD, btw. care to explain a little?
The 'Sink' you talk about is not the 'Sink' you play!!!
Then I either talk too much or play too little... :sad:
-DC
Suspects both
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 11, 2007, 05:12:29 PM
Quote from: SBCU on June 09, 2007, 09:16:25 AM
I find it quite interesting that in your writings actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally. The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians. Like the kings clothes, our dear people are walking around in their order. As long as everybody is telling each other how wonderful their orderly clothes are, there will be order. Then it doesn't matter if the clothes are covered with anarchy, liberal, or even Discordian prints, as long as people have their order in their mind, there is no fun for Eris.
I find it interesting that you interpreted my statements in such a way.
actually everything and everybody is right, as long as they live up to the formula of chaos, which will come naturally.
Maybe. I'm not sure that I said anywhere that "everybody is right", nor am I at all sure I think "everybody is right", in fact I'm not even sure what they're supposedly right about...
The teachings of Discordia tell us that the Grey man made the order, not that the order was a result of ordering the chaos. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians.
The teachings of Discordia tell us that we shouldn't believe the teachings of Discordia. However, if we were to examine the PD as useful, then consider the following:
1. I don't think Grey man made the Order. From my reading of the PD, the Greyfaced Hunchbrain looked around, saw order and decided that the Whole Universe was ordered. He didn't invent, create or otherwise make order... he simply saw order and ignored chaos (something that some Discordians do in reverse).
B. Order and Chaos can be described as two sides of the Sacred Chao, existing in a constant balance of "active wobbling". That is, an act of discord, will be balanced by an act of order, while an act of order will be balanced by an act of chaos. If order is not balanced, or if chaos is not balanced then the Chao tips and tipping a Chao isn't nearly as fun as rednecks make it out to be.
III. The order is an illusion that needs to be shown as an illusion by Discordians Don't fall under the Eristic Delusion. Neither Order nor Chaos are necessarily illusion... and both Order and Chaos may well be illusion... if you cut open a Golden apple, you'll usually find a pentagon inside. Order and Chaos can be considered as games we can play, they're ways to arrange the pebbles of Starbuck. We can see them as points on a pentagram, or points on a pentagon, or just a bunch of busted rock scattered about the ground. To presume that there is One True view of reality (either Chaos OR Order) then we fall to Aristotle and his asinine two-valued logic trap.
Four - People with order in their mind tend to be great fun for Eris and all of her Discordian acolytes. If everyone had nothing but Chaos in the brain, then acts of Discord would provide no primer for thought. Without the Greyface, there appears no Hodge to match our Podge.
- Every Man Woman and Child is a Pope of the Erisian Movement (even the Greyfaced Hunchbrains). Every Man, Woman and Child plays on the Hodge side, the Podge side, both sides or sits in the middle like a confused chipmunk.
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Muncher of the ChaoAcorn
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
POEE of the Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
:mittens: that was beautifully done.
I stand by 000's semantic adjustment though.
I shall have to modify the semantics for my full rant.
:D