If, for the purpose of this discussion, we tentatively accept Leary's model of Consciousness (8-Circuit Grid) http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-8-systems.html (http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-8-systems.html) as a useful map of human consciousness, where would you place the following individuals (based on their primary/public actions) and why? Further, do these cases seem to support Leary's thoughts on the progression of consciousness or refute it:
George W. Bush
Al Gore
Steven Hawking
Paris Hilton
Pat Robertson
That should be a good start to this thread... post your thoughts on the circuitry of these people, post your own list of people, post well, whatever the hell you think would be useful to such a thread.
2
3
5
2
3
On gut instinct. I'm using more RAW's model, but they are pretty much the same, as I recall.
Its an interesting model...of course, some people will be hard to place because they oscillate between a large range, which any model should take into account....but there are far worse ones.
Quote from: Cain on June 12, 2007, 08:02:19 PM
2
3
5
2
3
On gut instinct. I'm using more RAW's model, but they are pretty much the same, as I recall.
Its an interesting model...of course, some people will be hard to place because they oscillate between a large range, which any model should take into account....but there are far worse ones.
I personally use RAW's explanation of Leary's Model as well... he just does a better job of laying it out ;-)
It's interesting that many people would see Gore and Robertson as very different, yet it does seem to me as well, that they're operating with the same basic programming. Hawking seems to emulate the positive aspects of the fifth circuit and Paris, I think, perhaps the more hedonistic aspects (though I'd be interested to hear why you placed her at 2nd)... I think GWB may have started at third, but 9/11 seems to have brought out his 2nd quite strongly.
I also agree with your summation of the Model. It's not True, its just a model... one that I find rather useful ;-)
Y'all don't see Hawkins as almost entirely 3rd circuit? Manipulation and use of symbols?
Higher math and astrophysics? Hello?
LMNO,
I agree to some extent... however, Hawking does seem to have a lot of post-terrestrial thought. For the past several years he's been a very strong advocate of humans leaving this particular mudball... maybe I should have asked for a listing of pertinent circuits for each individual.
Hawking 5/3
Hilton 5/4
GWB 2/3 (or 3/2? I suppose it depends on how much he actually believes about the whole War on Terror thing)
Robertson 3/2
Al Gore 3/4
At least that's my guess....
Thats a pretty good way of expressing it, actually. Allows for a lot more nuance.
As for Paris....I'm not sure why I rated her as a 2. Something that came across from a few interviews and her reactions to her album being slated, seemed quite 2-like.
Quote from: Cain on June 12, 2007, 09:01:39 PM
Thats a pretty good way of expressing it, actually. Allows for a lot more nuance.
As for Paris....I'm not sure why I rated her as a 2. Something that came across from a few interviews and her reactions to her album being slated, seemed quite 2-like.
I would guess that mosbunal artists would pop into 2nd circuit defense when it came to their art ;-)
The impression I got from the 8 circuit model was one of progression through assimilation, in that the activation of a higher circuit would not preclude the lower circuits which would still remain in operation.
For me it becomes a kind of game when one reaches circuit 5, in that there is a tendency to lose c5 lucidity and get wrapped up in the lower circuits. The reason for this is that c5 doesn't replace these, it merely manifests as a level of awareness over and above.
Your mind is still obsessed with survival, territory, abstract pattern recognition and extrapolation (which imo is the heart of c3), and abstract social interactions. These circuits will endeavour to take precedence over the others in descending order. Put simply if your life is in immediate danger then your ability to think in abstracts will be compromised until circuit 2 is satisfied that you're out of the woods. Likewise you'd like to help out a friend or family member but not if it means you lose your house.
With C5 comes the quantum leap - awareness of the way the lower circuits are actually operating but try to keep a hold of this awareness when you're being attacked by a dude with a knife and you'll see what I'm talking about. I'm not saying it's impossible, just tricky to begin with, becoming easier with practice.
What I think I'm saying is that everyone on the list will probably operate on the first 4 circuits as par for the course. You'd really have to have some kind of mental disorder to be missing one of these in this day and age, since they define observable human psychology. To class someone as predominantly displaying x-circuit characteristics is probably more to do with that persons situation than the type of person they are.
The higher circuits are the ones in question. I'm not entirely sure yet but I reckon somewhere around 5-6 is the awakening commonly referred to as 'enlightenment'
I think there's a lot of folks who haven't made this jump yet. These people are funny as hell because they are relatively easy to manipulate at 1-4 circuit level, for shits and giggles.
Islly: Yes. Absolutely.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 12, 2007, 08:53:03 PM
LMNO,
I agree to some extent... however, Hawking does seem to have a lot of post-terrestrial thought. For the past several years he's been a very strong advocate of humans leaving this particular mudball...
But the 5th circuit is neuro-somatic. It has nothing to do with space travel.
Also, Pat Robertson is working on a highly charged 4th circuit. Socio-sexual? Absolutley.
Well said, Silly, Well Said.
Recently, someone came over here and was subjected to flames and heat. When they went back to their board they were all disgusted with the "2nd circuit behavior" lail. Isn't looking down on someone for their 2nd circuit behavior in some way engaging in that same tribal power game? I worry that a lot of the people who buy into the 8-circuit model use it as their own means of feeling evolved and enlightened.
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/bin/8CIRCUITFOPS.jpg)
This is not in any way to say I don't dig the 8-circuit model. I just mean to say that knowledge of it doesn't stop you from being a jerk.
:mittens:
Just like saying knowing about the BIP doesn't make you free, and just because you aknowledge pragmatism, you're barstool-proof.
Quote from: SillyCybin on June 13, 2007, 08:58:36 AM
The impression I got from the 8 circuit model was one of progression through assimilation, in that the activation of a higher circuit would not preclude the lower circuits which would still remain in operation.
I agree, however, both Leary and Wilson seemed to indicate that imprints at each circuit may be of differing levels for each individual. Thus someone who is held, cared for etc as a Baby, will be more likely to have a strong, positive First Circuit Imprint (cycles continues for the first four at least). So when we look at people in the limelight, I think we might often see where their strong imprints are, or which circuit they tend to 'default' to (or at least which one seems most active at that time in their life?). That's why I said "based on their primary/public actions". Gore, for example, doesn't seem to focus as much on anal/territorial (to me at least) but rather, he seems, I think, to baseline more on the semantic and social circuit. This doesn't particularly mean that his other circuits aren't working/present and ready to take over if necessary (say fight or flee moment of survival)... I just means that his personality, in my view, tends to center on communicating and social hierarchies (politics).
I think that we can point to aspects of anyone as examples of how their imprints of the four basic circuits appear to be set... but it does seem that the overall personality tends to center on one or two specific circuits. Though I don't think this necessarily holds true for V-VII since it may be that not everyone has activated these circuits yet (assuming that Leary's theories hold water... probably laced with LSD :fnord: ).
Mostly I would like to see people debating the labeling of stars based exactly on this principle. If we consider that all of the circuits are active in some sense, each of us may note a different flavor. My thoughts, Cains thoughts and LMNO's point on Robertson, for example, sent the Old Man through 2,3 and 4... and I suppose that if we wanted to we might even be able to argue that Robertson may actually be making use of Neuro-Somatic circuitry as a spiritual leader and may be invoking some basic fifth circuit scripts in his audience.
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 13, 2007, 03:14:45 PM
Recently, someone came over here and was subjected to flames and heat. When they went back to their board they were all disgusted with the "2nd circuit behavior" lail. Isn't looking down on someone for their 2nd circuit behavior in some way engaging in that same tribal power game? I worry that a lot of the people who buy into the 8-circuit model use it as their own means of feeling evolved and enlightened.
This is not in any way to say I don't dig the 8-circuit model. I just mean to say that knowledge of it doesn't stop you from being a jerk.
However, you do make a good point. Prometheus Rising talks about a lot of the "scripts" and many people tend to have a hard time staying in the "I'm OK, You're OK" script and often slip into either "I'm OK, You're Not OK", or "I'm Not OK, You're Not OK"... aka... everyone is a Cosmic Schmuck some times ;-).
I would say that in the particular situation you mentioned, that maybe there was a lot more 4th circuit activity on both sides. However, sometimes its easier to just call the actions second circuit (Maybe, like calling someone a Doo Doo head in a very real sense?). The fellow you mentioned has been around for quite some time, has made very enlightened commentary on other boards, has been a great classmate in several different classes that I've taken over at MLA and all in all tends to have a high social position among the classic Erisians/Discordians etc. However, here there's a new social structure, with new social rules and new qualifications for rising in the social hierarchy. Thus, my opinion of the encounter, having watched the whole thing from both sides (quietly), was that it seemed very much a fourth circuit struggle between social leaders of two different tribes. In fact, it was that epiphany that, in part, lead me to start posting here. I found the complexity of the social systems within the overall Discordian subculture to be too good to pass up a chance for playing with it.
So far, I'm enjoying it. :fnord:
certainly - and to clarify, I totally like the fellow in question and even followed him over to the MLA forums where I lurked a bit.
In fact, him and I might both be alts of the same person.
the way paris acted in prison made me classify her as circuit-1 more, really not more than eat-it or flee-it
anyway, good thread
nice pic as well, cram
Quote from: triple zero on June 15, 2007, 09:49:01 AM
the way paris acted in prison made me classify her as circuit-1 more, really not more than eat-it or flee-it
anyway, good thread
nice pic as well, cram
Nice point! That may make a very good example of how changes in environment can trigger a focal shift from 5th/4th down to 1st. Of course, I would guess that prison might force such a shift for anyone.
I haven't been following the Paris Hilton thing
but I can definitely see how cocaine withdrawal would cause some panicked biosurvival behavior
QuoteVI. The Neuroelectric System
The sixth brain consists of the nervous system becoming aware of itself apart from imprinted gravitational reality-maps (circuits I-IV) and even apart from body-rapture (circuit V). Count Korzybski, the semanticist, called this state "consciousness of abstracting." Dr. John Lilly calls it "metaprogramming," i.e., awareness of programming one's programming. This Einsteinian, relativistic contelligence (consciousness-intelligence) recognizes, for instance, that the Euclidean, Newtonian and Aristotelian reality-maps are just three among billions of possible programs or models for experience. I turned this circuit on with Peyote, LSD and Crowley's "magick" metaprograms.
This level of brain-functioning seems to have been reported first around 500 B.C. among various "occult" groups connected by the Silk Route (Rome-North India). It is so far beyond the terrestrial tunnel-realities that those who have achieved it can barely communicate about it to ordinary humanity (circuits I-IV) and can hardly be understood even by fifth circuit Rapture Engineers.
QuoteTactics for opening and imprinting the sixth circuit are described and rarely experienced in advanced rajah yoga, and in the hermetic (coded) manuals of the medieval-Renaissance alchemists and Illuminati.
First: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance
Secondly:
Yes, obviously the snobbish idea of the person who knows nothing, so finds a special way to know everything. If you don't understand him or her, you just simply can't master the powers to do so.
Thanks for the picture of the elite, it amused me, to say the least.
And then a little personal rant (3):
WHY? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY? Isn't there enough reality in the world that is weird and discordian enough? Why read this bullshit and start doing research on it, you might as well write your own theory. Include enough 'interesting' words and publish it as the all knowing fuck up of the century. Eris people, ERIS! There is no order, stop trying to make one. Yes yes, for you it sounds very interesting, all these orderly dimensions and brainwaves, and... AAAAAAAAAAARGH! :argh!:
Sorry, we already had a little chat about how the system has several flaws.
But please, don't let that get in the way of your little rant :lol:
Quote from: SBCU on June 18, 2007, 09:23:04 AM
WHY? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY? Isn't there enough reality in the world that is weird and discordian enough? Why read this bullshit and start doing research on it, you might as well write your own theory. Include enough 'interesting' words and publish it as the all knowing fuck up of the century. Eris people, ERIS! There is no order, stop trying to make one. Yes yes, for you it sounds very interesting, all these orderly dimensions and brainwaves, and... AAAAAAAAAAARGH! :argh!:
Ah, but SBCU, to me your rant appears to risk falling to the Eristic Delusion, that is the perception that Order does not exist. Order, as much as Disorder appear as necessary and useful tools for the escalation of Chaos... they appear as the building blocks, as it were of Discord, Confusion and Bureaucracy. Look at the Sacred Chao, does it not contain both the Hodge and the Podge? Are not All Men, Women and Children Popes of Eris (either Popes of the Rising Podge or Popes of the Rising Hodge?)
A Lesson on the Sacred Chao
The Sacred Chao is made up of three visual elements. The first is the eternal symbol of balance, the yin and yang, the black and white, the male and female, the polarity of Everything. Inside the black field of this ancient symbol rests an emblazoned 'Golden Apple'. This is the Golden Apple that started the Trojan War, The Golden Apple of Eris. Unfortunately we don't have a definite answer on the exact type of Gold, some believe it may have been Acapulco. The third element is nested on the white field of the Chao. A Five-Sided Pentagon, the symbol of the Department of Defense (or the Dept. of Murder, War etc.)... as well as all good Bureaucracies everywhere.
"But what does it mean?" asked the student seeking enlightenment.
The Sacred Chao is the symbol of the universal balance between Disorder and Order. These are known to most Discordians as "The Hodge", symbol of the Disorder which touches every part of existence(even the parts that your Mommy said not to touch unless you were taking a bath). On the other side there is the Podge, symbol of Order, Bureaucracy, and Dogma.
The Sacred Chao is never in a perfect balance, or a static position. Indeed, it wobbles as each side struggles with the other. The secret to the power of the Chao is exactly that, understanding that an increase in one, will initiate an increase in the other. Every time the Government increases taxes or decreases freedoms, there is a proportional increase in tax evasion or in unlawful activity. When there is an increase in civil disobedience or rebellion, there is a proportional increase in the Police and Authority force, more freedoms are curtailed and the Sacred Chao wobbles from side to side.
An Example:
When bureaucracy placed the Great US Podge in the center of Middle Eastern affairs, we might say that they started to tip the Chao, the eventual retaliation by Hodge-sided terrorists tipped the Chao in the other direction. The recent US-led attacks in the Mid-East, notably Afghanistan and Iraq, was the direct result of the Pentagon Praising Podge People (which has 5 instances of the letter 'p', yet another proof of the Law of Fives), tipping the Chao again. The responses from insurgents (many of whom use Hodge like tactics in an effort to implement their Podge-ish Islamic Rule) is now balancing that.
On and on it goes, in every aspect of reality (or whatever you think is reality). Thus we can say that the universe is made up of a Hodge/Podge of order and disorder, in short Chaos. In fact if you cut an apple in half and look inside, you will see the seeds sitting in a 5 sided Pentagon, for within chaos is always a deeper Order. The same is true of Order, look closely at any government program, beneath the bureaucracy is chaos, pure and simple.
Remember that EVERY model is just a model, a map, a metaphor and can be True in Some Sense, False in Some Sense and Meaningless in Some Sense... including the 8-Circuit grid and Sacred Chao. If we discuss the 8-circuits as a map, a game of order or a model... that doesn't mean we think its an Authority on Truth. Its a way of examining the universe around us and the universe in between our ears. When you can master both Order and Disorder, you'll find that games on either side can escalate Chaos. If you only ever seek disorder, then you may miss out on lots of fun.
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Muncher of the ChaoAcorn
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
POEE of The Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
Rat may be the only Pinealist on this board that I don't feel like smacking the living hell out of.
Quote from: LMNO on June 18, 2007, 05:18:11 PM
Rat may be the only Pinealist on this board that I don't feel like smacking the living hell out of.
I'm a Pinealist?
Trust me, there are worst distinctions.
Considering "Pinealist" is a word I just made up, then yeah. You are.
But that's ok, because I don't want to hit you.
Well, good then. I shall add Pinealist to my list of titles at some point!
:lulz:
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 18, 2007, 05:17:03 PM
Quote from: SBCU on June 18, 2007, 09:23:04 AM
WHY? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY? Isn't there enough reality in the world that is weird and discordian enough? Why read this bullshit and start doing research on it, you might as well write your own theory. Include enough 'interesting' words and publish it as the all knowing fuck up of the century. Eris people, ERIS! There is no order, stop trying to make one. Yes yes, for you it sounds very interesting, all these orderly dimensions and brainwaves, and... AAAAAAAAAAARGH! :argh!:
Ah, but SBCU, to me your rant appears to risk falling to the Eristic Delusion, that is the perception that Order does not exist. Order, as much as Disorder appear as necessary and useful tools for the escalation of Chaos... they appear as the building blocks, as it were of Discord, Confusion and Bureaucracy. Look at the Sacred Chao, does it not contain both the Hodge and the Podge? Are not All Men, Women and Children Popes of Eris (either Popes of the Rising Podge or Popes of the Rising Hodge?)
A Lesson on the Sacred Chao
The Sacred Chao is made up of three visual elements. The first is the eternal symbol of balance, the yin and yang, the black and white, the male and female, the polarity of Everything. Inside the black field of this ancient symbol rests an emblazoned 'Golden Apple'. This is the Golden Apple that started the Trojan War, The Golden Apple of Eris. Unfortunately we don't have a definite answer on the exact type of Gold, some believe it may have been Acapulco. The third element is nested on the white field of the Chao. A Five-Sided Pentagon, the symbol of the Department of Defense (or the Dept. of Murder, War etc.)... as well as all good Bureaucracies everywhere.
"But what does it mean?" asked the student seeking enlightenment.
The Sacred Chao is the symbol of the universal balance between Disorder and Order. These are known to most Discordians as "The Hodge", symbol of the Disorder which touches every part of existence(even the parts that your Mommy said not to touch unless you were taking a bath). On the other side there is the Podge, symbol of Order, Bureaucracy, and Dogma.
The Sacred Chao is never in a perfect balance, or a static position. Indeed, it wobbles as each side struggles with the other. The secret to the power of the Chao is exactly that, understanding that an increase in one, will initiate an increase in the other. Every time the Government increases taxes or decreases freedoms, there is a proportional increase in tax evasion or in unlawful activity. When there is an increase in civil disobedience or rebellion, there is a proportional increase in the Police and Authority force, more freedoms are curtailed and the Sacred Chao wobbles from side to side.
An Example:
When bureaucracy placed the Great US Podge in the center of Middle Eastern affairs, we might say that they started to tip the Chao, the eventual retaliation by Hodge-sided terrorists tipped the Chao in the other direction. The recent US-led attacks in the Mid-East, notably Afghanistan and Iraq, was the direct result of the Pentagon Praising Podge People (which has 5 instances of the letter 'p', yet another proof of the Law of Fives), tipping the Chao again. The responses from insurgents (many of whom use Hodge like tactics in an effort to implement their Podge-ish Islamic Rule) is now balancing that.
On and on it goes, in every aspect of reality (or whatever you think is reality). Thus we can say that the universe is made up of a Hodge/Podge of order and disorder, in short Chaos. In fact if you cut an apple in half and look inside, you will see the seeds sitting in a 5 sided Pentagon, for within chaos is always a deeper Order. The same is true of Order, look closely at any government program, beneath the bureaucracy is chaos, pure and simple.
Remember that EVERY model is just a model, a map, a metaphor and can be True in Some Sense, False in Some Sense and Meaningless in Some Sense... including the 8-Circuit grid and Sacred Chao. If we discuss the 8-circuits as a map, a game of order or a model... that doesn't mean we think its an Authority on Truth. Its a way of examining the universe around us and the universe in between our ears. When you can master both Order and Disorder, you'll find that games on either side can escalate Chaos. If you only ever seek disorder, then you may miss out on lots of fun.
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Muncher of the ChaoAcorn
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
POEE of The Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
Okay... since I've got some experience with religions I think the most logical thing to do now is:
Form my own group, give it a weird name, ad some new 'old' texts and say it's the real PD.
Ad a history with druids, Qabalism, Rosicrucians, Eris, alchemy, Dr. John Dee, Blavatsky and Arthur Waite, which all helped me to find this real PD. Claim the 'newer' PD, which most people follow is only a misunderstanding... And say that in the end of the day the biggest misunderstanding is the inclusion of order in anything.
Or will I be kicked out now?
only if you're gonna be an idiot about it.
Quote from: SBCU on June 23, 2007, 08:55:03 AM
Okay... since I've got some experience with religions I think the most logical thing to do now is:
Form my own group, give it a weird name, ad some new 'old' texts and say it's the real PD.
Ad a history with druids, Qabalism, Rosicrucians, Eris, alchemy, Dr. John Dee, Blavatsky and Arthur Waite, which all helped me to find this real PD. Claim the 'newer' PD, which most people follow is only a misunderstanding... And say that in the end of the day the biggest misunderstanding is the inclusion of order in anything.
Or will I be kicked out now?
I hope you wouldn't be kicked out for being a Discordian (which appears like a useful descriptor for what you stated). Just because "to me" you appear to trip closely to the Eristic Delusion, doesn't mean that you are or that the Eristic Delusion even exists. My Discordia and your Discordia probably should not be the same... what sort of madness would that be? We'd have some organized religion with one TRUTH rather than wildly different ideas, metaphors and concepts.
Perish the thought!
Quote from: SBCU on June 23, 2007, 08:55:03 AM
Okay... since I've got some experience with religions I think the most logical thing to do now is:
Form my own group, give it a weird name, ad some new 'old' texts and say it's the real PD.
Ad a history with druids, Qabalism, Rosicrucians, Eris, alchemy, Dr. John Dee, Blavatsky and Arthur Waite, which all helped me to find this real PD. Claim the 'newer' PD, which most people follow is only a misunderstanding... And say that in the end of the day the biggest misunderstanding is the inclusion of order in anything.
Or will I be kicked out now?
DO IT!
SCHISM!
SCHISM!
SCHISM!