Ladies and gentleman, we have a problem. It is one that almost 100% of us, myself especially included, are guilty of. It is one that, if it is not overcome, will likely mean we end up getting killed or imprisoned in the bad times that are coming, or at the very best, will leave us in our current situation that we are now in, with minimal influence and held captive to the workings of others.
Our morale sucks.
Really badly sucks.
Now, to be fair, there are a number of reasons for this. We were caught off guard in the 90s and the opening years of the Bush administration. With all the advances that were being made, with an ever more assertive media, 'progressive' governments in charge of the western world, the internet, lack of nuclear terror, the threat of nationalist terrorism receding, we had reason to believe things were, in fact, getting better. Not totally better, to be sure. There was still a lot of injustice, secrecy, casually created violence and poverty in the world. But trends of awareness, the various grass root movements that had arisen and flourished (specifically without the level of government intimidation that had existed during the Cold War) were all good indicators for the future.
In short, we got lazy, and therefore sucker punched, big time.
The current wave of authoritarianism has infected pretty much the whole of the western world. It came fast and unexpectedly. Torture is back on the agenda, secret wire taps, gulags, suspension of haebus corpus etc all came out of nowhere and has dominated the political debate of the last decade, nearly, and will likely continue.
But more importantly, we ourselves have not helped.
We could have. Setbacks can be overcome. Hell, in the 60s they had COINTELPRO, which is even worse than what we have now. At least civil rights leaders are not being assassinated by ,Äúlone gunmen,Äù anymore, though certainly the tarring and feathering they receive in the press is a non-violent equivalent. Things are not yet that bad, so a comeback should have been in the making, probably around 4 years ago or so. But it has not.
Thats because the second problem is not related to external events, but is inside of our heads.
Virtually everyone who becomes a Discordian does so because they chose to, not because they were forced into it. That gives them a peculiar disposition, that is not found among many other groups. Because they signed up freely, and usually have the presence of mind to deal with absurdity, contradiction and multiple conflicting belief systems, they are very hard headed.
And wont back down very easily. To anyone, including other Discordians.
So long as Discordians are willing to stick it to each other as much as they would to a Greyface, then nothing can be solved.
Lets face it, we are numerically weak. We do not use violence (except in exceptional circumstances), command any sort of control over the media or have a ton of cash. Our only chance is a variant of guerrilla warfare, fought on terms of our choosing.
And the key to winning guerrilla wars is moral cohesion. The entire idea is whoever survives the longest without imploding invariably wins. An example is in order: as you recall, in the film of V for Vendetta, it is not Codename V who kills Adam Susan. He plays Norsefire and Finch like fiddles, pitting them against each other until the very top of the government implodes under its own suspicious nature. Susan cannot trust Creedy, Creedy feels threatened by Susan, and Finch suspects both were involved in the terrorist attacks that bought them to power. V sets all this in motion, of course, and eventually topples the fascist government, but they need not have played along. Not if they had trusted their own people.
And because of this, of how we have been for the last several years, we will lose any and every encounter we take part in, except against the weakest of enemies, who are already factionalized or limited in other ways. Right now, we are just about able to hold our own against some fluffy pagans and their sexually deviant webmaster. How can we ever expect to change the international system, or undermine the various governments that we despise, if we cannot even destroy an insignificant twit like this without major planning and grief?
Now, I am not saying we should become consensus city, or that there will not be disagreements of any sort. Nor is this some exceptionally Byzantine and laborious way of telling people to go easy on the n00bs. However, once someone is in, and considered in, that should afford them a certain level of respect and leeway. It is a mark of honour, to be among us, and we should recognize it as such. Furthermore, we will make it known that to battle with any single Discordian would mean to battle not a single faction, while the rest stood by and waited for a final result, but to deal with the entire Discordian society.
To take us on would mean dealing with at least 60 or 70 vicious, smart, free-thinking and amazingly competent individuals (perhaps thousands more, as our networked numbers grow and more recruits are bought into the fold). A single Discordian can be a very formidable opponent, as people like Hunter, TGRR, LMNO, ECH, Silly etc prove. But what of these backed up by the entire weight of several forums worth of people? This is the secret of power, that it resides in relationships and networks, not isolation and individual ability. In short, to take on the Discordians will be to lose.
To that effect, I have buried all axes and vendettas I am carrying. Even those most recent or longest standing ones. I have signed up to EB&G again, with peace in my heart. I will not raise a hand against another Discordian at all, unless it is absolutely necessary, in circumstances I see as being next to impossible. All I expect is similar leeway in return. It need not be perfect, or even chummy, but so long as the fact I am a Discordian and that we have bigger fish to fry is remembered, then I will be fine.
I suggest others do the same, though I do understand it is a bitter pill to swallow, in many cases. Long ago I made the case for not bothering with ideological purity in achieving our goals. Right now, I feel the same applies with personality clashes. We are not numerous enough to pick and choose who we can work with. Lets bury the personal issues, and get on with the job in hand. Which incidentally, is part of what is to come next.
Wow.
My thought is that the chestnut memes of: 'stick apart' and 'cat herding' are tantamount to 'signing our own novelty death warrants' in terms of provoking any change of thinking in the world at large.
Mrs Mang & I were having a related discussion only this morning. We were laughing at people who make statements like: "I don't forgive or forget. If you cross me, you're finished....because I'm Italian." Yeah...like it's Italy's fault that you're a 4th generation intolerable, narrow-minded dickwad.
By the same token, there's a danger that we're too reliant on certain cliches, that practically justify and guarantee that we'll turn on each other and dissipate any momentum.
After a long period of dormancy, I've been churning over ideas concerning BIP and also the newly emerging 'shrapnel' idea. It seems to me that PD.com is more about the spirit, rather than the letter of Discordianism (if such a statement can be made). It's why we have the 50 post suggestion and a general malaise for excessive LOLFNORDPINEAL23!!11 stuff.
The advantage to the PD as a book, is that it does contain some salient points, secreted between surrealist bollocks and fluff. Because the actual 'meat' of the book is stated rather succintly, it's fairly easy for someone of moderate intelligence and literacy to absorb. That's great.
The downside, is that things that are absorbed easily, may quickly bypass critical functioning. It becomes all too convenient to affect the apparent 'vocabulary' of Discordianism, without observing the underlying principles, which I believe to be the more important part.
We're being hamstrung by our own cliches.
For future projects to succeed (ie: completing an updated PD) it'll have to be as succinct. We do not need to recycle any of the Eris, 5 ton of flax vocabulary, because we're developing our own. The WOMPers and other artistic deviants (liek Silly) have provided us with some really fantastic imagery. We're long past the stamps and cut/paste collages of the original PD.
Right now, the language & imagery that we use is contemporary. If there's people still talking about this shit 30 years from now on internet forums, there will probably be a jaded bunch of people, not unlike ourselves who are slapping n00bs for launching into a cascade of mitten icons and describing things as 'win' or 'fail'.
So...uh..in summary. Agree with Cain. More product, less in-fighting (unless absolutely essential). We have a big resource here, intellectually & creatively speaking. We can not only extract the essentials from the PD for a new audience, we can add something uniquely our own. Just so long as we remember that today's cutting edge is tomorrow's telling someone to shut the fuck up and think for themselves.
Damn...so tempting to end this with 'or kill me'...but out of respect to TGRR, I won't.
PS tl:dr
Cheers dude. Some very pertinent points in your reply as well, I feel. I've always been more about the spirit of Discordianism, because I feel if I wasn't, then I would also get hung up on certain cliches and phrases, instead of what it means to me. It also makes me, to a degree, more respectful of those with whom I have theological/philosophical differences.
But Discordians are, in many ways, social guerrillas. Therefore, those of us who do want a measure of influence will have to start to adapt those measures, and indeed further them. Or else we will be, at best, another minor focus group. (although funnier than most of them). :)
In some ways, it feels like our URL is false advertising. It's not unreasonable that people see it, and go 'Great! I can get all my FNORRD23s out of my system here', not knowing (often when it's too late) that the content of the forum has moved somewhere else.
And yes, I know - 100% guilty of having done that. Though my weak defence is that at the time, the tolerance threshold for it was much higher than it is today and I found my own schtick.
I think that not only do we have to look back on the PD and find what is still relevant, but we should also consider what we have/know that they did not when they first put it together. The world (in some respects) is a very different place than it was when it was written.
great writeup, cain. was this the thing you've had brewing for the past couple of weeks but couldn't post?
now, my reply is going to be a bit on the negative side, but paradoxically enough i still think you brought some very interesting and important points up. it's just that the solutions and conclusions you get from it are--at least for me--not so simple.
i have a few things to say about it, and these are all on personal title, so i'm not speaking for anybody, but you seem to be talking about all discordians on this board, which includes me:
- my morale sucks mostly because of a lot of (rather personal) reasons other than the ones you stated.
Quote from: CainFurthermore, we will make it known that to battle with any single Discordian would mean to battle not a single faction, while the rest stood by and waited for a final result, but to deal with the entire Discordian society.
i don't see any way i could ever promise this and stay true to myself.
i can understand how you explain this would be a good thing, but really, some discordians do really stupid shit and if i were to have myself drawn and make enemies from every little war that is started against them .. i find myself disagreeing WAY too often with some of the things discordians in general say, or say to stand for. and in 90% of the cases i keep this to myself, because while the explanations would be interesting, the drama wouldn't be worth it.
Quote from: CainHow can we ever expect to change the international system, or undermine the various governments that we despise, if we cannot even destroy an insignificant twit like this without major planning and grief?
it would probably help if the people actually carrying out the attempt believed it was necessary
and/or the people believing it was necessary actually carrying it out.
i know i learned one thing, and that's that i can't justify that sort of stuff to myself.
it's like being somebody else's soldier, which made me think at some point "what the fuck am i actually doing here?"
yeah, you can pretty much call that a morale problem, if you like.
(and even then, i'm really bad at this hate thing. even if it was my own. i try it from time to time, and it simply never works out for me)
now apart from that you speak about personal issues with other discordians. i have none. never had, and probably never will, and definitely not for any prolongued time, because if there's anything i can't stand, it's having personal issues with people. and i'm very good at forgiving and making compromises. so from that part, i'm all with you.
but from the part where you suggest we should all side with eachother, stand blindly behind eachother when one of us is "wronged". how do we know who is wrong?
no it's this right, and this ability to think for myself and decide on a case-by-case basis whether i want to support something or not, is one of the big reasons why i find myself so well in discordianism.
i'm not one to blindly follow a cause. because i know causes, and causes aren't people. just like nations, corporations and religions. just like them, causes can suddenly change and turn against you. because what you seem to be suggesting is that we fight for "something bigger than people" .. remember what Pratchett wrote about that in "Interesting Times" ?
(edit: little fixes of really horrible sentences straightened out a bit)
That is true. The problem of freeloaders is a valid one, as it effects any grouping beyond a reasonable side.
Perhaps I should adjust: with correct cause, to attack a single Discordian is to attack them all. If you mouth off and expect backup, you should be left to your own devices, but otherwise, we should be there for our co-religionists. Regardless of what we may think of them personally.
000 reminds me of the worth of checking what I write and then editing, ITT.
huh i'm not really sure how this is a reply to my concerns raised, but:
> If you mouth off and expect backup, you should be left to your own devices
ok makes sense.
> but otherwise, we should be there for our co-religionists. Regardless of what we may think of them personally.
is this just about the personal issues/drama thing? because in that case, as i said i wholeheartedly agree with you and i have not much more to add, except general advice on being forgiving and making compromises (got lots of experience :mrgreen:)
what would such an "otherwise" situation be and what sort of "be there" would be expected?
just a general lack of backstabbing or something more proactive?
btw i wasn't talking about freeloaders. freeloading implies in a way that people are aware that they are freeloading. like "ok i'm gonna be a discordian so they'll back me in my war against XXXX". the situations i was thinking of were more of the kind where the discordian would be completely 169% convinced of his/her own right, but still fighting a battle i'd rather have nothing to do with.
I use freeloading regardless of the intent.
And yes, this is about all the infighting. I wrote it about 3 weeks back, maybe 2, and since then, have been unable to post it. It should most certainly be regarded in the context of recent infighting.
ok, in that case i can't say much more about it, cause it isn't really about me. but it sounds like a good idea :)
which leaves me to say that i think it's really cool and "showing of good character" of you, that you have decided to put all the personal issues aside. i really mean this, cheers to you!
Well said, Cain. You've managed to hit upon one of the reasons I decided to take a step back from posting in general after the last time you left EB&G. I felt that, to a great extent, Discordianism spent a lot more time tearing itself to shreds than it did doing anything else.
Spending a fair amount of time lurking here, though, and reading over what has been produced, I've been pretty impressed with what I've seen, and the message is still very much something that I agree with.
So, with that in mind, if I'm wanted, I'll stick around and help where I can.
Good to have you back, KW.
And 000, really, I dont deserve it. It took me nearly 3 years to come to this conclusion, after all, so I didn't exactly rush in coming to it or anything.
Nice piece.
Some in-fighting is needed.
It's like sparring. It hones our skills and keeps our ideas fresh.
However, like in sparring, we must avoid injury. Once the spar is done, remember that we are basically on the same side.
True. Since we've ripped the shit out of each other, we should have no problem disembowling a cabbage.
Also to weed out and reform the dumb shit.
Bhodes 11/12 idea and Lamenites "Free Range Earth" had to be put down, as they were simply awful ideas. I like to think that we are working toward something useful.
Cain - some obstacles:
Discordians tend to be people who have been burned or have seen others burned by the status-quo.
In one way or another, most of us are "aligned" in this thing only inasmuch as we are all disillusioned by the way larger things seem to be going. The PD says that a Discordian is as likely to be carrying a flag of the establishment as one of the anti-establishment, but I haven't seen a whole lot of truth to that.
Discordians seem to be so anti-establishment, in fact, that we strongly oppose any kind of establishment. At its root, our disdain for the FNORD23 stuff stems from the fear that what we are a part of will become established as a self-perpetuating mythos, and once established will become corruptible, since it is no longer a moving target.
And so, being that this is a movement borne of distrust for movements, our ideological differences are in some ways even harder to overcome than they would be if we were in a less enlightened group. It's hard to trust any consensus when groups based on consensus are hardly ever trustworthy.
Damn Cain. Kudos.
And at the risk of getting flamed from every member on this board, why is it the talents and skill of everyone is being used on insignificant little forums who if left to their own devices and without our attacks forcing them to unite would more than likely dry up and blow away?
Wouldn't our efforts be of far more productive use in fighting the real enemies to freedom and finding new members?
I watch and have even participated in attacking fundie sites, and I have more than not wondered what good it does.
I have also wondered if instead of posting porn wouldn't be better replaced by well written, well thought out posts on why we think they are wrong.
Finding sites of malcontents, for whatever the reason they are malcontented, seems to me should be a much higher priority. Spending time to find those who belong here, and bringing then here. Then proactive movement to the real threats.
OK, flame away, but I really feel this way.
I agree with the general theme of the OP.
Some really good things have been achieved here, at PD. It created the BIP concept by working together, even though the BIP is not a universally accepted idea, it was created through co-operation by discordians.
Yes, we need a little friction between us to work well sometimes, but all out warfare is a waste of our resources.
Quote from: Hawk on July 14, 2007, 10:39:14 PM
Damn Cain. Kudos.
And at the risk of getting flamed from every member on this board, why is it the talents and skill of everyone is being used on insignificant little forums who if left to their own devices and without our attacks forcing them to unite would more than likely dry up and blow away?
Wouldn't our efforts be of far more productive use in fighting the real enemies to freedom and finding new members?
I watch and have even participated in attacking fundie sites, and I have more than not wondered what good it does.
I have also wondered if instead of posting porn wouldn't be better replaced by well written, well thought out posts on why we think they are wrong.
Finding sites of malcontents, for whatever the reason they are malcontented, seems to me should be a much higher priority. Spending time to find those who belong here, and bringing then here. Then proactive movement to the real threats.
OK, flame away, but I really feel this way.
:mittens:, TITCM, :potd:, rah, 10/10, etc.
Major win there, Cain. I agree alot with what vexation said, in that Discordians tend to avoid establishment, and typically try to hold tight to their individuality so much so that alliances are hard to hold within the community. Again, the sparring idea is good, as opposed to ripping each other to shreds. It'd be great if we could eventually get something accomplished, so this seems the right path there.
Cain isn't proposing any kind of establishment. As much was carefully detailed. Not to put too fine a point on it, but he's saying that we respect each other-not necessarily play nice all the time- but honoring each other to the point that we can put ourselves in the same boat, so to speak.
Naturally, I'm enamored with the idea.
Games, boys and girls... Games.
If you take this forum seriously... rather, the jabs, pokes and prods of your fellow discordant, deviant, disciples of chaos, seriously.... then it seems to me that you'll have problems. However, this is an internet chat forum, with pseudonymous chaotes as regular members (rather than the lone insane troll), We shouldn't need to codify being nice to each other, we should strive to remember that debate, rant or flames from the bowels of a gargantuan red poster, can (maybe should) be remembered as a game. Games of Order, games of Disorder, but games that we can't take seriously. Taking any Internet debate seriously appears likely to cause cancer in lab mice and ulcers in humans,... how much less so Internet debate between the most confounding fools on the net?
Cain has some great points. If Discordians want to invoke creative chaos, poetic terrorism and art sabotage, then mass cooperation will be necessary. Even if I tend to disagree with the fight, it's a game and I can suspend my current model for whatever one my fellow Erisian may be smoking. Why not... I have no evidence that my view IS right. Of course, that doesn't mean that my help might not throw more thasn one monkey wrench into the works... but it won't be directly aimed at an ally.
However, I think it might be healthy to set up a forum here to vent afterwards ;-)
In fact, we could all try to make a habit of invading any and all sides of whatever particular argument may be going on. (ie take out a conservative blog and the next day take out a liberal one).Anyone too addicted to their beleifs seem a ripe target that we could.. well mosbunal of us could agree on.
Maybe?
Damn Cain, right on.
If I had to add anything, I'd say something about part of having a loose consensus with a group of Discordians not only means that they'll have you back when you get fucked with, but also that you should expect someone to call you out for being an asshole when you act it.
Meaning, if any kind of trust can really be had, there has to be an allowance of criticism as well as support under fire.
To use your V example, what if Susan said to Creedy, "man, you're really being a fuckhead about this," and Creedy was all, "yeah, I guess you're right. I better cut that shit out."
I also have to add my voice to agree whole-heartedly with Cain.
It is the nature of smaller groups in opposition to what is perceived as "the norm" or mainstream to fall (sooner or later) into infighting and fracturing over minutae and very minor differences being exploded into earth-shattering, irreparable rifts of ideology. Discordianism has a leg up on this since it's essentially BASED on those minor rifts and the "think for yourself" meme, but as a small cult/religion we are still very succeptable to this fracturing - just look at the "lol23fnordpineal" reactions here to see that at work.
That isn't to say that all discordians MUST support unquestioningly anyone else that claims the Erisian moniker, but the less infighting we participate in the more we can actually accomplish.
I'm a member of the UAW (there's an office professionals branch of that mega-union that covers my current position) because I am able to get better salary and benefits by allying myself in the appropriate circumstances with others of a similar situation for the benefit of ALL than I would be able to get by attempting to negotiate on my own with my employer. This doesn't mean I blindly follow the lead of the rest of the union members, nor do I expect them to blindly obey my ideals just because we all are members. It means that together we can accomplish more for the overall benefit of the group than any of us could manage on our own.
Same thing with Discordians - people in a position of power will only bow to one thing historically - a group of people unified in principle and acting in a concerted, coordinated fashion to present a common concept. Sometimes that is presented behind the barrel of a gun (as in various revolutions) and other times it is presented in the form of protests, petitions, letters to elected officials/networks/whatever. If a handful of repressed housewives or fundamentalists can almost singlehandedly censor the media with a few dozen letters, just think of what a coordinated group of discordians could accomplish!
:evil:
I DISAGREE BECAUSE MY PENILE GLAND TOLD ME NOT TO FOLLOW YUO
My two cents--
I'm not a part of the EB&G drama, nor do I have issue with anyone on this board (except myself). It seems to me that the rift between EB&G and PD have somehow decreased the quality of both locales.
But if we're going to move forward and carry this torch into the coming decades, we don't just need to all get on the same team, we need focus. And we need people to be willing to step up to the plate and lead -- and lead by example -- like Cain is doing.
I conjecture that if we were to complete a project, especially one that draws material from both PD and EB&G posters, it will give both communities the slack they need to move forward and explode like popcorn into something delicious.
Professor Cramulus
I agree in principle. I just want to point out that one of the wedges with some of the people on EB&G was with the BIP-type material. Some feared we were becoming a bit zealous and preachy with it. This will be a hurdle we will have to contend with. I'm not saying it can't happen. Indeed, I'd love to see us re-connect with some of those posters, I just want to put it out there for the purposes of context.
Not to mention, all a lot of them want to do is bitch about MysticWicks.
Quote from: LMNO on July 16, 2007, 03:58:48 PM
Not to mention, all a lot of them want to do is bitch about MysticWicks.
Was going to post something snarky here. Thought better of it on account of it being too easy.
Remember though, if we're really going to embrace Discordia above all else, some of the 23FNORDPINEAL comments may need to be more thoughtful. As I mentioned before, its not the trappings that may be at issue, but rather getting trapped in the trappings. Besides, the boatload of memes that drew mosbunal of us to Discordianism shouldn't necessarily be so completely discounted. After all, 23FNORDPINEALLAWOFFIVES etc etc are Memes in the wild, propagated by a group that has some similar ideals (particularly in regard to the ideals that Cain mentions in the OP). Instead of beating the tar out of our Brothers and Sisters of the Chao, perhaps some reconsideration may be useful.
For some reason the sorting hat from Harry Potter just popped into my head. In the past I've sort of sorted our wild gang of hooligans into Erisians (the mystics and the 23FNORDPINEAL gang), Discordians (the atheist, hard edged, jaded and not necessarily as optimistic pranksters), Sub Geniuses (those actively trying to turn the poor cabbages into coleslaw) and the Illuminati (the ones that play with all the groups, play off of all the groups and play all the groups against each other.
I'm sure there are a thousand and twenty-three other ways to sort our motley gang of guerrilla goofballs, but the above should be OK for an example.
Anyway, instead of raping the souls of poor widdle Erisians that wander in, we may be able to direct their efforts. That is, if we're activly planning an attack on site X, they may make excellent distractions. What better to unleash on site X (weeks after another group of us have site ID's and appear to be normal users) than a load of Discordians (which we would post rude things to and tell them to STFU... all the while directing both sides of the mess from here)....
So, I'm in if we're gonna call a Discordian truce and alliance... but we need to keep in mind that Discord comes in many forms, each with their own special use. I'm not calling us all Tools... well ok I guess I am.
I'm not sure how clear it is when we do it, but the point isn't that silly non-sequitors have no place, it's that it's incredibly boring when someone rehashes 40-year-old non sequitors on a board that's heard them 10,000 times.
If you notice, many of the posters here are no strangers to abject sillyness. But we try to do 2 things, usually:
1. Make them original (or riff on a still-new meme).
2. Balance them with more substantative content.
There are, of course exceptions to this.
Also, when I go Discordian somwhere new, I have nothing against using the Old Phrases, because they seem to have some weight. But I don't do it here.
It would be like a bunch of Calculus majors continually joking about long division.
I think that's 90% of the point Rata - that unifying of the Erisians (a camp I myself tend to be in more often than not even though I lean towards the skeptic side of things regarding the occult), the Discordians, the Subgenii, and the Illuminati into one force that is vastly more capable of accomplishing things than any one section might be singly.
We're all tools, so let's get the whole damn toolbox together to be able to wreak mass-havok/change. We can do a lot more with a wide variety of tools than we can with just a few after all.
Quote from: LMNO on July 16, 2007, 04:58:29 PMI'm not sure how clear it is when we do it, but the point isn't that silly non-sequitors have no place, it's that it's incredibly boring when someone rehashes 40-year-old non sequitors on a board that's heard them 10,000 times.
If you notice, many of the posters here are no strangers to abject sillyness. But we try to do 2 things, usually:
1. Make them original (or riff on a still-new meme).
2. Balance them with more substantative content.
There are, of course exceptions to this.
Also, when I go Discordian somwhere new, I have nothing against using the Old Phrases, because they seem to have some weight. But I don't do it here.
It would be like a bunch of Calculus majors continually joking about long division.
but, for example, pestering your friends with the law of fives and the number 23 is a lot of fun, and if you keep it up:
1 - somebody is bound to say: "but that would work for every number", to which you should reply "yes. and this is exactly the point. <blahblah insert more in depth explanation of second half of Lo5s>"
2 - still it's a fun game to play, and the moment when somebody notices for themselves they are seeing more 23s than they'd have expected it serves as a
demonstration for the law of fives, reality-grid-filter-magijck-etc thing you explained in step 1.
just to show that it can still be useful for new (or potential) discordians.
it's just that n00bs coming here, and "subtly" working the numbers 5 and 23 into their posts, are totally demonstrating they didn't GET it, at all. the point is not putting the numbers there, or joking that the illuminati did it, the point is that the numbers will be there if you pay enough attention to them.
Quote from: LMNO on July 16, 2007, 04:58:29 PM
I'm not sure how clear it is when we do it, but the point isn't that silly non-sequitors have no place, it's that it's incredibly boring when someone rehashes 40-year-old non sequitors on a board that's heard them 10,000 times.
If you notice, many of the posters here are no strangers to abject sillyness. But we try to do 2 things, usually:
1. Make them original (or riff on a still-new meme).
2. Balance them with more substantative content.
There are, of course exceptions to this.
Also, when I go Discordian somwhere new, I have nothing against using the Old Phrases, because they seem to have some weight. But I don't do it here.
It would be like a bunch of Calculus majors continually joking about long division.
I understand that LMNO, but when you come to this board, thats not particularly the feel that one gets, if you see what I mean. For new Discordians... they may not yet be Calculus majors, they may be math majors and still find long division pretty damn funny.
So using them as our distraction unit might work quite well... even with a few of us who may be less enamored with the trappings helping mold the newest recruits. This may be particularly useful, because, if new Discordians are anything like old Discordians, the love of Fnord may me mollified by a chance to actively use the memes as part of a Discordian OMF.
This board is directly connected to the version of the PD that I direct potential recruits to... It may be their very first exposure to the potent meme bombs hidden throughout the book, and they may walk in here hours afterward. Honing the weapon may be more useful than telling them to sod off... that's all I'm saying ;-)
To be honest, if they read any of the "Advice to the n00bs" threads we've stickied, they'd see that the
first thing we say is that we've heard it already, so please try something new.
Quote from: triple zero on July 16, 2007, 05:56:48 PM
but, for example, pestering your friends with the law of fives and the number 23 is a lot of fun, and if you keep it up:
1 - somebody is bound to say: "but that would work for every number", to which you should reply "yes. and this is exactly the point. <blahblah insert more in depth explanation of second half of Lo5s>"
2 - still it's a fun game to play, and the moment when somebody notices for themselves they are seeing more 23s than they'd have expected it serves as a demonstration for the law of fives, reality-grid-filter-magijck-etc thing you explained in step 1.
just to show that it can still be useful for new (or potential) discordians.
it's just that n00bs coming here, and "subtly" working the numbers 5 and 23 into their posts, are totally demonstrating they didn't GET it, at all. the point is not putting the numbers there, or joking that the illuminati did it, the point is that the numbers will be there if you pay enough attention to them.
Yes, for friends that don't know about Discordia. But I ask, when DC and Cram and TOG and Payne met up in Boston last weekend, how much of the conversation was about the Law of Fives or the Pentabarf? I'm sure there were a few "Hail Eris"s here and there, but as far as spending time talking about that stuff, I doubt it.
Quote from: LMNO on July 16, 2007, 06:17:15 PM
To be honest, if they read any of the "Advice to the n00bs" threads we've stickied, they'd see that the first thing we say is that we've heard it already, so please try something new.
Quote from: triple zero on July 16, 2007, 05:56:48 PM
but, for example, pestering your friends with the law of fives and the number 23 is a lot of fun, and if you keep it up:
1 - somebody is bound to say: "but that would work for every number", to which you should reply "yes. and this is exactly the point. <blahblah insert more in depth explanation of second half of Lo5s>"
2 - still it's a fun game to play, and the moment when somebody notices for themselves they are seeing more 23s than they'd have expected it serves as a demonstration for the law of fives, reality-grid-filter-magijck-etc thing you explained in step 1.
just to show that it can still be useful for new (or potential) discordians.
it's just that n00bs coming here, and "subtly" working the numbers 5 and 23 into their posts, are totally demonstrating they didn't GET it, at all. the point is not putting the numbers there, or joking that the illuminati did it, the point is that the numbers will be there if you pay enough attention to them.
Yes, for friends that don't know about Discordia. But I ask, when DC and Cram and TOG and Payne met up in Boston last weekend, how much of the conversation was about the Law of Fives or the Pentabarf? I'm sure there were a few "Hail Eris"s here and there, but as far as spending time talking about that stuff, I doubt it.
I understand what you're saying. There's no NEED for the old memes, but then there's no need to bitchslap some newbie for using them.
Think of it like this, if we had a secret society with 'grades' or 'degrees'. Sure a 23rd degree Discordian would have a much better grasp of the secrets of the society, when speaking with other 23rd degree Discordians, he probably wouldn't need to discuss the first or third degree metaphors.
However, that doesn't mean that a 1st or 3rd degree Discordian shouldn't be using the metaphor....
We don't need to use the metaphors, because we've learned the model that they're playing with. Some people post here who don't yet differentiate between the entry model and the rest... but they'll learn (I think) after all, we did. I think instead of actively discouraging the n00bs with "We've heard it before, come up with something new", maybe we could be a bit more manipulati... err helpful ;-)
By no means should you, me, Cram and TOG run around looking for 23s (unless we want to)... but we need not slam some other poor POEE that does. We can use them as our front lines, our skirmish units, our suicide meme-bombers.
Actively encouraging the old metaphor, while subtly pulling the ones that think into new metaphors might be a good application of Cain's OP.
Rat, I appreciate where you're coming from, and I've seen two separate kinds of n00b approaches:
Approach 1. "Hey, anyone actually try out this "Law of Fives" thing? It's pretty awesome. Did you know if you add the date of my birth togetehr you get 23? Cool!"
General Reply: "You do know about the other, unwritten, half of the law, right?" Which generally expands to the Prover proving what the Thinker thinks.
Approach 2. "Hail Eris! Mine Pineal Gland got high on LSD and told me to spam "42" in every single thread on this forum to show y'all how wacky and Discordian I am!"
General Reply: "Fuck off. Seriously."
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 16, 2007, 06:27:54 PM
I understand what you're saying. There's no NEED for the old memes, but then there's no need to bitchslap some newbie for using them.
Think of it like this, if we had a secret society with 'grades' or 'degrees'. Sure a 23rd degree Discordian would have a much better grasp of the secrets of the society, when speaking with other 23rd degree Discordians, he probably wouldn't need to discuss the first or third degree metaphors.
However, that doesn't mean that a 1st or 3rd degree Discordian shouldn't be using the metaphor....
We don't need to use the metaphors, because we've learned the model that they're playing with. Some people post here who don't yet differentiate between the entry model and the rest... but they'll learn (I think) after all, we did. I think instead of actively discouraging the n00bs with "We've heard it before, come up with something new", maybe we could be a bit more manipulati... err helpful ;-)
By no means should you, me, Cram and TOG run around looking for 23s (unless we want to)... but we need not slam some other poor POEE that does. We can use them as our front lines, our skirmish units, our suicide meme-bombers.
Actively encouraging the old metaphor, while subtly pulling the ones that think into new metaphors might be a good application of Cain's OP.
(http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/b/b5/Exploding-head.gif)
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 16, 2007, 05:57:54 PM
This board is directly connected to the version of the PD that I direct potential recruits to... It may be their very first exposure to the potent meme bombs hidden throughout the book, and they may walk in here hours afterward. Honing the weapon may be more useful than telling them to sod off... that's all I'm saying ;-)
I just wanted to comment on this a little bit. Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't have come on ANY forum if I had JUST finished my first-ever reading of anything, let alone something that operates on as many levels as the PD. I will readily admit to wandering off on a few Fridays to partake of a Hot Dog in a bun, getting wrapped up in various 23-isms, and tying that in with my interest in Chaos Magick and various other occult things I was reading up on at the time (and still read up on as the mood suits me).
The first time I read the PD I had already read the Schroedinger's Cat trilogy and the Illuminatus! trilogy so I had some exposure to the fact that there are many levels of meaning involved in the PD. What I think the problem is here in the forums is that people, after doing a first reading of the PD, think they "get it", when they might only be "getting" one or two of the levels being shown. I've read the PD at least a dozen times and every time I read it I take something new out of it and have new concepts to digest and new levels to explore. The more the PD is examined over time, the more levels are exposed to the reader.
Those of us here on this forum are generally those that have been ruminating on the concepts for a while, have examined and applied at least a few of the levels the PD exposed us to, and have had time to let the words and concepts become assimilated into our world-views. Someone that has just finished reading the PD hours previously won't have had the time to let the concepts seep in and accumulate, and as such will come into conflict with those that have.
What is important to remember, especially with the new-to-the-PD-concepts folks, is that ALL of us at one time or another (even if it was a very brief time) were making that first conceptual leap of assimilation. It didn't necessarily hit everyone via the "ZOMG23PinealFnord" spewing, but the concepts DID alter all of our reality-tunnels into something that led us all to where we are now and will continue to alter our perceptions going forward. That kick-in-the-teeth spark in the brain I had when I first read the PD was, I'm sure, hardly unique. What I think leads to conflict is when someone that has JUST experienced that for the first time comes here and assumes that everyone else is at the same point, rather than having had years or even decades to assimilate it.
Also, LMNO's two approaches post highlights the kind of things we encounter typically. The first almost always leads to (if nothing else) a decent discussion, and the second invariably leads to massive flames. We HOPE for the first approach, but we usually SEE the second. I personally attempt to follow response 1 at all times, even if it is for someone that uses approach 2, but if the person approaching doesn't want to or isn't able to get beyond the primary PD metaphors (or even acknowlege that they ARE metaphores) then I stand back and let the flames consume them.
I heartily approve of the concept of using the new-to-the-metaphore types as front-liners. However, that shouldn't mean a blind acceptance of anyone that comes along spouting the first couple meme-levels from the PD - that would leave us far too open to infiltration and subversion of OUR objectives from those WE are trying to subvert. While I don't necessarily approve of insta-bashing anyone that comes along spouting the "pinealisms" there DOES need to be some system in place to separate those that understand that there ARE multiple levels (or seem capable of understanding that) from those that get caught up on or are merely puppeting the "pinealisms". The flaming is one way of doing that - one that has evolved apart from this specific forum and been adapted here for just that purpose. Admittedly we probably lose some that might be able, in time, to see more of the levels at work, but part of testing your limits is finding when you've got more to learn.
Conversely
I read the PD, laughed my ass off and came straight here, hoping that someone else 'got' it.
Thing with the PD is it can be enlightening but only if you weren't enlightened by other means before you read it.
PD was a flag in the sand for me. I came here to see if it had worked.
It's also not our job to "enlighten" anybody, especially if we see more of this cohesion and start seeing larger projects develop. This group is unique in that it can exist as a set of people who have been around for a while, with its own goals and its own culture, while also accepting new members. I don't think we should spend much energy (if any at all) on getting noobs graduated through a series of levels and memes and what-not. Part of the fun of Discordianism is that if you didn't get there (mostly) by yourself, then you never got there.
Besides, if most of the people on this board "Get It," it just means that most of us don't have a clue what Discordianism is going to be about (from a cultural-meme-public relations standpoint) two days from now. Preparing someone for the future of Discordianism has nothing to do with which memes to spew and which ones to avoid.
Spending too much time on the 23fnord stuff, either for it or against it, is missing the point. As in parenting: the object is not to teach them which decision to make, but to teach them how to make the decision. And by the time a person can navigate themselves to a forum on the interwebs, that should be something they already know or are at least capable of teaching themselves.
Quote from: LMNO on July 16, 2007, 06:17:15 PM
To be honest, if they read any of the "Advice to the n00bs" threads we've stickied, they'd see that the first thing we say is that we've heard it already, so please try something new.
maybe we should clean those out a bit.
they're like, what 30-50 pages of rambling now?
i can imagine a n00b not really wanting to go through that [yeah the imporant bits are at the start, but they don't know that].
maybe it's a good idea to unsticky those threads, and recompile the important bits into a new thread and sticky that one.
(so also nobody has to worry about any lulzworthy replies being wiped, they just sink to the bottom)
Quote from: LMNO on July 16, 2007, 06:17:15 PM
When DC and Cram and TOG and Payne met up in Boston last weekend, how much of the conversation was about the Law of Fives or the Pentabarf?
actually we spent all our time talking about your meme bombs.
read: balls
YOU'VE BEEN TEABAGGED.
Yes. Yes we WERE teabagged. It was hilarious :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: LMNO on July 16, 2007, 06:33:30 PM
Rat, I appreciate where you're coming from, and I've seen two separate kinds of n00b approaches:
Approach 1. "Hey, anyone actually try out this "Law of Fives" thing? It's pretty awesome. Did you know if you add the date of my birth togetehr you get 23? Cool!"
General Reply: "You do know about the other, unwritten, half of the law, right?" Which generally expands to the Prover proving what the Thinker thinks.
Approach 2. "Hail Eris! Mine Pineal Gland got high on LSD and told me to spam "42" in every single thread on this forum to show y'all how wacky and Discordian I am!"
General Reply: "Fuck off. Seriously."
Right... what I'm saying is that Approach Number 1, seems useful for potential recruitment into the Discordian subset (those inserting meme-bombs surreptitiously). Approach number 2, may be useful for us as fodder towards targets.
Example:
We determine to attack, Non-Fluffy pagans on LJ (just an example). We spend about 6 weeks with everyone involved joining the site and in a friendly, quiet way, we join the 'community'. The day we attack, we unleash "Approach Number 2" folks with 23PINEALFNORD or Whatever other memes we want. They are good at being trolls, let them serve Eris in their own way.
We make sure that some of the memes they post have value and then we attack those memes, dissecting them in the forum and compiling them in the minds of our targets. Use our FNORDIAN FOOLS to seed the herb of Distraction. Then harvest, dry and smoke the fruits of Eris. ;-)
One of the most important aspects of any guerrilla movement is figuring out how to use ALL of your resources. Even the annoying Pinealist may be a valuable resource in laying siege to greyfaces everywhere. Particularly if we suck them into new memes of our own devising.
Think of them as sleepers... as Useful Fools... as memetic robots... or whatever other metaphors you can jam in there ;-)
i think ratatosk is once again, riding a correct motorcycle.
also,
do you think we could label our n00bs into group1 and group2, and not tell them, or something?
Um. No.
That way lies explicit elitism, as opposed to the inhering implicity of elitism we already employ but often ignore.
aww
:sad:
(i was kidding, btw)
Quote from: triple zero on July 16, 2007, 07:46:13 PM
do you think we could label our n00bs into group1 and group2, and not tell them, or something?
They label themselves. Besides, even the most die hard Pinealist will be willing to adopt new memes if it means getting to actively participate in a BIG Discordian Attack.
LMNO gave a great example of how we already note the difference. The only thing I'd like to see modified is instead of saying STFU n00b, we PM them with "Hey would you like to join our special forces? Go read *insert our propaganda here* and we'll invite you to private board X where we plan attacks."
If they are more like group one, then we PM them with "Would you like to help us play with some heads? Go read *insert our propaganda here* and we'll invite you to a private boards X and Y where we plan attacks..."
Those who only show up on Board X, will (through association) probably get to join set Y at some point, and if nothing else, we redirect their lame posts to somewhere useful... to us.
This is a pretty good idea, Rat.
I enjoin you to write up the appropriate propoganda for the budding Pinealist.
Hey Cain -- I have only read the first post in this thread, and I want to read more, such as all the responses. But I am at work and actually have work to do and keep getting spotted on the forum, so I don't have much time or window today.
So I just wanted to say FUCK YES.
That was a fucking great post.
I will try to actually contribute something later, rather than just be back-slapping. But it deserves back-slapping. I'll stew in it while I work and be back later.
Quote from: LMNO on July 16, 2007, 08:07:07 PM
This is a pretty good idea, Rat.
I enjoin you to write up the appropriate propoganda for the budding Pinealist.
I would be honored..... muhahahahahahahahahahaha
Ok, this is a first pass at the forward to Occultus Forma Discordia (The Secrets of the Models of Discordianism). I think its a good introduction which might pique the interests of a Pinealist, while politely telling the Fluffy Bunny Discordian to please go play elsewhere. If they don't take the hint, then I think they leave themselves open for... well, the appropriate treatment ;-) (Cain, TGGR, this means YOU).
So here's the first quickie draft, please take a look at it and provide me with feedback. I'll be writing the treatise over the next few days and posting excerpts as Eris inspires them. This forward is intended to do three things:
1. Attract potential Discordians who are willing to use a Clue by Four as necessary.
2. Attract potential Discordians who are likely to be a Clue by Four (willing or not).
3. Dissuade the namby-pamby hippy Discordian from continuing down a path that will result in someone peeing in their bowl of Flax.
Please let me know your thoughts:
Occultus Forma Discordia
A Treatise on the Secrets of the Models of Discordianism
Forward
This is not The Truth of Discordianism. If you are looking for The Truth of Discordianism, you are a very silly person. This is not The Secret of Discordianism; if such a thing exists, you need to find it yourself. This is not even necessarily a True version of the Discordian vision as held by Omar, Mal-2, RAW or any other master of mayhem from the Early Days of Her Return. This is a treatise on an interpretation secrets of a model of Discordianism; particularly the model of Discordianism currently being used by this loose cabal of Chaoates which you have voluntarily stumbled into.
If you don,Äôt like what is written in these pages, then stop reading them. If you don,Äôt agree with our interpretations of models, then don,Äôt use them. If you simply want to run around spewing memes, then by all means don,Äôt let us stop you, just do it somewhere else. However, if you want to join our game, if you want to play with our toys, then assume, at least for the moment, that our game of Order hides a bigger game of Disorder. You can play or not, it,Äôs your choice. Do as Thou Will.
This document is designed to introduce you to our interpretation of a model. The model uses markers that you might be familiar with. However, don,Äôt confuse the marker with what the marker represents. A Fnord by any other name could still be a fnord (and a bit harder to trace back to Known Naughty NincomPOEEs). If you don,Äôt agree with the goals of the game (and the rules we,Äôre making up), then you probably won,Äôt want to play. So, before we waste any more of your time, let,Äôs talk about our goals.
We are a tribe of philosophers, hackers, theologians, magicians, scientists, artists, clowns, and similar maniacs who are intrigued with the possibility of modifying the thought processes of individuals,Ķ with our without their knowledge. If you firmly believe that the PD is a ,Äúhappy, hippy, everyone loves and accepts each other,Äù kind of book. Well, then you should probably stop reading right now. From our perspective, Eris rode on the back of Ares chariot, laughing and delighting in the chaos of war. If you don,Äôt want to explore that aspect of Chaos (as well as all the others), then take the blue pill and scamper off to some other Discordian forum. This doesn,Äôt mean you,Äôre wrong or right, it only means that you,Äôre not interested in our game. Do as Thou Will.
If you are of the opinion that Robert Anton Wilson, Mal-2 or Omar KNEW the truth,Ķ then you should probably go play elsewhere. Most of us have immense respect for those Chaoates that came before us, but we do not consider their word Truth or their ideas sacrosanct. Those great tricksters would be the first to tell you that neither they, nor their writings were to be considered as Sacred Cows. In Discordia there exists one Sacred Chao and she doesn,Äôt like competition.
This treatise is an introduction to our game, our ideas, our metaphors and our concepts. It is not written in E-Prime, though everything we write should be considered as perception and possibility,Ķ never as truth or fact. If you can,Äôt grasp this, then you,Äôre probably not up for the sort of games we play. If you don,Äôt like what you,Äôve read so far, then stop reading. This isn,Äôt Truth, it isn,Äôt FACT. We don,Äôt want your ,ÄúYou don,Äôt sound very Discordian,Äù responses. The art of Discordia exists in both Order and Disorder; Order and Disorder aren,Äôt enemies, only opposites.
If however, you are interested then we shall lay upon you some secrets of the models of Discordianism. We,Äôll take you beyond the memes, metaphors and Malaclypse, we,Äôll hone you to a fine point with which to prick the bum of the complacent, the self-satisfied, the Greyfaced, the Hunchbrain, the Pink, the Norm or whatever other name you want to call THEM.
It,Äôs up to you, Do as Thou Will.
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
Muncher of the ChaoAcorn
POEE of the Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
Rata, that is so amazingly full of win that you deserve at LEAST a handful of internets. If that's how we greet the newbies, then I think we're going to get off to a good start - or at least have put up the disclaimer before the firestorm.
Looks great to me!
0) :mittens:
1) what TOG said
2) i love the way how you put some eris/discordia mystique PD-reminiscing stuff in there, that's a thing a lot of us seem to have lost, forgotten how, or simply never did anything with. but it's a very good way of putting the n00bs a bit at ease!
3) to replace all the n00bs-read-this threads with that post, IMO
That is so fucking win there isn't even any room for competition :mittens:
Holy Shit.
Cain, you fucking rock. That's two seperate posts I've read by you today that made me want to full-on kiss you on the mouth.
I wish I had more to contribute to what you all have been doing lately, but for some reason my imagination seems to have completely dried up over the last four months or so . . . but I am waiting . . . soon SOMEthing will come out, and it will hit you all in the face like a Salazorian speedball. I promise. Until then I am dead weight making inane posts and thinking up 'STFU' memes. *sigh*
But, at any rate: RAH.
Rat, that was fucking awesome.
it needs it's own stickied thread, the question is, in which sub-forum should it go?
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 16, 2007, 09:42:24 PM
Ok, this is a first pass at the forward to Occultus Forma Discordia (The Secrets of the Models of Discordianism). I think its a good introduction which might pique the interests of a Pinealist, while politely telling the Fluffy Bunny Discordian to please go play elsewhere. If they don't take the hint, then I think they leave themselves open for... well, the appropriate treatment ;-) (Cain, TGGR, this means YOU).
So here's the first quickie draft, please take a look at it and provide me with feedback. I'll be writing the treatise over the next few days and posting excerpts as Eris inspires them. This forward is intended to do three things:
1. Attract potential Discordians who are willing to use a Clue by Four as necessary.
2. Attract potential Discordians who are likely to be a Clue by Four (willing or not).
3. Dissuade the namby-pamby hippy Discordian from continuing down a path that will result in someone peeing in their bowl of Flax.
Please let me know your thoughts:
Occultus Forma Discordia
A Treatise on the Secrets of the Models of Discordianism
Forward
This is not The Truth of Discordianism. If you are looking for The Truth of Discordianism, you are a very silly person. This is not The Secret of Discordianism; if such a thing exists, you need to find it yourself. This is not even necessarily a True version of the Discordian vision as held by Omar, Mal-2, RAW or any other master of mayhem from the Early Days of Her Return. This is a treatise on an interpretation secrets of a model of Discordianism; particularly the model of Discordianism currently being used by this loose cabal of Chaoates which you have voluntarily stumbled into.
If you don,Äôt like what is written in these pages, then stop reading them. If you don,Äôt agree with our interpretations of models, then don,Äôt use them. If you simply want to run around spewing memes, then by all means don,Äôt let us stop you, just do it somewhere else. However, if you want to join our game, if you want to play with our toys, then assume, at least for the moment, that our game of Order hides a bigger game of Disorder. You can play or not, it,Äôs your choice. Do as Thou Will.
This document is designed to introduce you to our interpretation of a model. The model uses markers that you might be familiar with. However, don,Äôt confuse the marker with what the marker represents. A Fnord by any other name could still be a fnord (and a bit harder to trace back to Known Naughty NincomPOEEs). If you don,Äôt agree with the goals of the game (and the rules we,Äôre making up), then you probably won,Äôt want to play. So, before we waste any more of your time, let,Äôs talk about our goals.
We are a tribe of philosophers, hackers, theologians, magicians, scientists, artists, clowns, and similar maniacs who are intrigued with the possibility of modifying the thought processes of individuals,Ķ with our without their knowledge. If you firmly believe that the PD is a ,Äúhappy, hippy, everyone loves and accepts each other,Äù kind of book. Well, then you should probably stop reading right now. From our perspective, Eris rode on the back of Ares chariot, laughing and delighting in the chaos of war. If you don,Äôt want to explore that aspect of Chaos (as well as all the others), then take the blue pill and scamper off to some other Discordian forum. This doesn,Äôt mean you,Äôre wrong or right, it only means that you,Äôre not interested in our game. Do as Thou Will.
If you are of the opinion that Robert Anton Wilson, Mal-2 or Omar KNEW the truth,Ķ then you should probably go play elsewhere. Most of us have immense respect for those Chaoates that came before us, but we do not consider their word Truth or their ideas sacrosanct. Those great tricksters would be the first to tell you that neither they, nor their writings were to be considered as Sacred Cows. In Discordia there exists one Sacred Chao and she doesn,Äôt like competition.
This treatise is an introduction to our game, our ideas, our metaphors and our concepts. It is not written in E-Prime, though everything we write should be considered as perception and possibility,Ķ never as truth or fact. If you can,Äôt grasp this, then you,Äôre probably not up for the sort of games we play. If you don,Äôt like what you,Äôve read so far, then stop reading. This isn,Äôt Truth, it isn,Äôt FACT. We don,Äôt want your ,ÄúYou don,Äôt sound very Discordian,Äù responses. The art of Discordia exists in both Order and Disorder; Order and Disorder aren,Äôt enemies, only opposites.
If however, you are interested then we shall lay upon you some secrets of the models of Discordianism. We,Äôll take you beyond the memes, metaphors and Malaclypse, we,Äôll hone you to a fine point with which to prick the bum of the complacent, the self-satisfied, the Greyfaced, the Hunchbrain, the Pink, the Norm or whatever other name you want to call THEM.
It,Äôs up to you, Do as Thou Will.
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
Muncher of the ChaoAcorn
POEE of the Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
Damn, I just got to this now, and . . . damn!
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on July 17, 2007, 03:13:21 AM
Rat, that was fucking awesome.
it needs it's own stickied thread, the question is, in which sub-forum should it go?
All of them.
Including Discordian Recipes.
I think it would make most sense in TFYS.
it should be
- in the top one, because that's where n00bs will click first
- in the one that should also have "post your introductions here" in its description (Apple Talk)
- randomly another one, for good measure
A few things:
1. Rat, awesome!
2. "If you firmly believe that the PD is a ,Äúhappy, hippy, everyone loves and accepts each other,Äù kind of book. Well, then you should probably stop reading right now."
The only structural error I found. I suggest:
"If you firmly believe that the PD is a ,Äúhappy, hippy, everyone loves and accepts each other,Äù kind of book, well, you should probably stop reading right now."
3. Not only stickied, I am saving this on my hard drive, and posting it in direct response to a new n00b post.
Err, oh, ah...
Ummm... well thanks for the kudos everyone. Please do as LMNO did though and critique it. :) I want to further develop this into a full pamphlet/series of posts/thingamajig, so this is just a first pass of the forward.
The text (at least as I currently have it outlined)
1. Discuss theory of pattern recognition.
1b. Discuss problems with human pattern recognition.
1c. Discuss how 23 and the Law of Fives illustrate this point (and apply it further)
1d. Encourage the creation of new pattern recognition tricks.
2. Discuss the theory of memes
2b. Discuss memes within the PD.
2c. Discuss why memes are useful in some instances and not useful in others (Fnording a target, as opposed to fnording a bunch of Discordians)
3. Discuss the theory of perception modification applying the above two concepts.
3b. Discuss practical ways to attempt this stuff.
4. Introduce the n00b to our cabal and its methods, hierarchy and the areas that n00bs can help out (See my earlier posts).
5. Some sort of bizarre Discordian ending.
So the goal of this document would be to entertain the n00bs and provide them with a sense of connecting beyond the initial trappings of Discordia. At the same time, I'd like to sprinkle in a few new memes (ones that we tend to use)... it seems to me that we all use memes, just as any n00b does. In fact, I would argue that memes like Fnord, Flax, 5, 23 etc are tribal memes for Discordians. Here at PD.com (a sub-tribe) we have more memes and thus our fnords are intermixed with the Con, the BiP etc.
If we provide the n00b with some of our memes (and strong encouragement to read the BiP etc), then perhaps we can dilute the older tribal memes slightly with some new ones.
Section four would require some sort of options for the n00b. Maybe something in the way of a Pineal Personality Test? :lulz:
dude, if you (or several of us) are going to expand all those outlines, we'd basically have a PD'07 going!
ITT: Rat' finds appropriate balance between creative order and creative disorder.
Much celebrating ensued.
:D
this is awesome
ampersand
I think it should be in its own thread
*applause* to you Rat
My opinion, should be stickied to top of every sub-forum with !MUST READ! in the title
Rah!
Quote from: Ratatosk on July 17, 2007, 04:13:13 PM
Err, oh, ah...
Ummm... well thanks for the kudos everyone. Please do as LMNO did though and critique it. :) I want to further develop this into a full pamphlet/series of posts/thingamajig, so this is just a first pass of the forward.
The text (at least as I currently have it outlined)
1. Discuss theory of pattern recognition.
1b. Discuss problems with human pattern recognition.
1c. Discuss how 23 and the Law of Fives illustrate this point (and apply it further)
1d. Encourage the creation of new pattern recognition tricks.
2. Discuss the theory of memes
2b. Discuss memes within the PD.
2c. Discuss why memes are useful in some instances and not useful in others (Fnording a target, as opposed to fnording a bunch of Discordians)
3. Discuss the theory of perception modification applying the above two concepts.
3b. Discuss practical ways to attempt this stuff.
4. Introduce the n00b to our cabal and its methods, hierarchy and the areas that n00bs can help out (See my earlier posts).
5. Some sort of bizarre Discordian ending.
So the goal of this document would be to entertain the n00bs and provide them with a sense of connecting beyond the initial trappings of Discordia. At the same time, I'd like to sprinkle in a few new memes (ones that we tend to use)... it seems to me that we all use memes, just as any n00b does. In fact, I would argue that memes like Fnord, Flax, 5, 23 etc are tribal memes for Discordians. Here at PD.com (a sub-tribe) we have more memes and thus our fnords are intermixed with the Con, the BiP etc.
If we provide the n00b with some of our memes (and strong encouragement to read the BiP etc), then perhaps we can dilute the older tribal memes slightly with some new ones.
Section four would require some sort of options for the n00b. Maybe something in the way of a Pineal Personality Test? :lulz:
6.Profit!
Not No. 6, just NO 6 ;-)
Playing the devil's advocate:
As great as all this sounds, what will it really accomplish? We can troll boards, post a couple of memes here and there, but how far does that actually go? We manage to piss off a few mods and the rest is written off as a load of nonsense. How many people actually figure out what's going on and show up here, or atleast get an idea of whats going on?
It really doesn't matter.
Results do not always mean success, and success does not always mean results.
I troll because it makes me happy. Any results I want will always be IRL results, and are subject to KYFMS.
Quote from: keeper entropic on July 19, 2007, 11:38:31 PM
Playing the devil's advocate:
As great as all this sounds, what will it really accomplish? We can troll boards, post a couple of memes here and there, but how far does that actually go? We manage to piss off a few mods and the rest is written off as a load of nonsense. How many people actually figure out what's going on and show up here, or atleast get an idea of whats going on?
"the Science and Art of causing change to occur in conformity with will." - Crowley
I am a Discordian for many reasons, not the least of which is my fascination with manipulation of my own perceptions and those of everyone else.
I was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I learned a lot about how to manipulate people's perception. Hell, they teach you how to get people to talk, how to trick people into agreeing with something etc. It was surprising how well it worked, except we weren't surprised since it was obviously Jehovah's spirit guiding us....
I left that religion after 25 years because suddenly (in a period of about three months) everything I knew, I questioned. Everything that I believed, I suddenly found to be silly. It wasn't big things that happened, it was small little weird blurbs, insignificant moments... but all together it pulled me out of that reality tunnel. I tried paganism and suddenly found that I could have very spiritual experiences with ritual (as powerful, if not more so than what I'd experienced in the past). I tried psychedelics and suddenly found that I could have powerful experiences with no God or goddess. So I became an Atheist and figured that it was all just chemicals and none of it mattered.
It was around that time that I read the Principia. The effect was immediate and powerful, my reality changed again, just like it had all of these times before... except this time, it wasn't a shift toward understanding the truth. It was a shift toward admitting that all of it, every one of the positions I had been in were equally silly, weird and full of shit. They were all trying to put some Order over the chaos that was human existence. I'd just started dating Sjaantze, Harbinger of Distraction (a covert Discordian who had left the PD "just laying about") and her Dad collected lots of occult books. I randomly picked up one called "Quantum Psychology" because it sounded like more horseshit to laugh at.
Well, I suppose in a sense it was ;-), but in another sense. It described the same sorts of things I'd begun to wonder about. When I finished it I raided his book collection and came away with Prometheus Rising, Cosmic Trigger, The Illuminatus! Trilogy, and Reality is What You Can Get Away With.
If people want to learn the truth and figure out what's going on. They can go on their own adventure and figure out whatever works for them from whomever they think makes sense. If people want to learn the stuff that I currently consider as pretty damn useful (Maybe Logic, Model Agnosticism) then they can find Bob's writings, or Leary's, or Crowley's or any of the other amazing individuals that figured this shit out. I don't have to convert them (though sometimes I do because its fun). I don't have to illuminate them (though sometimes its great entertainment). I don't owe them access to the secrets behind the masks.
I love to hoist a battery operated bubble machine out the window of our car and blast intersections and confused humans with soapy chaos. I'd like to think that some of them laughed, some were surprised, maybe even one of them decided to do something silly too. Any of those would be worth the effort in my opinion. However, those are bonuses, extras, the free Super Size to my Golden Apple Combo Meal... Deep down, in my most secret and happy of places, I do this because it is what I choose to do. I do this for myself. I do it because I love to fuck with people.
It is My Will imposed on their reality, and a bar in my Black Iron Prison.
Quote from: Baron von Hoopla on July 16, 2007, 11:57:31 PM
Holy Shit.
Cain, you fucking rock. That's two seperate posts I've read by you today that made me want to full-on kiss you on the mouth.
What was the other one? I'm genuinely curious.
And besides, I have lots of time at work to think. The advantage of manual labour is that once you learn what you are doing, your mind freewheels while you get paid for it.
Somebody definitely should transplant Rat's post and the ensuing (deserved) enthusiasm. I'd like to critique it but it's going to get in the way of being able to follow the more direct responses to the watershed OP.