trying to get this project off the ground (again) (http://www.discoflux.com/node/143)
the link takes you to my site which would allow for broad collaboration and stuff. kinda like a wiki except you can add/edit your own pages easier and post comments to each item for discussion.
i'm thinking this format would make it a lot easier to collaborate and produce new material as well as help organize existing stuff. pages can be moved around, sub-chapters created, etc. take a look, maybe register at the site, and we might be able to get the ball rolling.
Your banner is fancy!
I'm halfway done with an illustration (Actually 5 in 1) for Cain's Apocrypha.
This project needs to contract a lot more visual AIDS before it's cleared for takeoff.
People love illustrations even when they hate them, and will compel people to read at least part of the material.
So, even if you can't illustrate, you CAN help develop specific ideas for a more artistically inclined person to execute and/or build on.
But we don't even know what font it will be printed in
how can we move forward under these conditions?
hence the commenting feature for suggestions/discussion and the ability to post/revise anything. or, we can just assume the project won't go anywhere and act accordingly, i guess.
Quote from: Nigel on May 24, 2008, 04:26:49 AM
But we don't even know what font it will be printed in
how can we move forward under these conditions?
Shouldn't you be lashing out at imaginary threats somewhere else?
The typographer in me wants to agree with Nigel, but I think having more material to typeset would be a good idea first.
That said, LaTeX is FTW.
Quote from: PeregrineBF on May 24, 2008, 11:47:22 AMThe typographer in me wants to agree with Nigel, but I think having more material to typeset would be a good idea first.
That said, LaTeX is FTW.
LaTeX is great, but not really for doing any professional layout that's not supposed to look like a scientific paper.
but whoever will take the job can use whatever tool they want :)
i'd prefer InDesign myself
Quote from: Netaungrot on May 24, 2008, 07:02:37 AMQuote from: Nigel on May 24, 2008, 04:26:49 AMBut we don't even know what font it will be printed in
how can we move forward under these conditions?
Shouldn't you be lashing out at imaginary threats somewhere else?
let's keep things a bit productive here, please, both of you?
anyway, visual AIDS good point. best to have some stuff in black & white, because i dont think we'll be making a full colour production?
Quote from: Netaungrot on May 24, 2008, 07:02:37 AM
Quote from: Nigel on May 24, 2008, 04:26:49 AM
But we don't even know what font it will be printed in
how can we move forward under these conditions?
Shouldn't you be lashing out at imaginary threats somewhere else?
Sorry, my imagination broke.
Quote from: PeregrineBF on May 24, 2008, 11:47:22 AM
The typographer in me wants to agree with Nigel, but I think having more material to typeset would be a good idea first.
That said, LaTeX is FTW.
You don't understand, she's just being a sarcastic cunt.
Quote from: triple zero on May 24, 2008, 03:13:34 PM
anyway, visual AIDS good point. best to have some stuff in black & white, because i dont think we'll be making a full colour production?
Yeah, black and white, or grayscale is important to keep in mind, because few will be able to afford color (full or even spots).
More on the technical side, the art is more than likely going to be used at approximately 5in x 4in at the largest, but this maximum dimension can be oriented landscape or portrait style.
300 pixels per inch for most art and at least 600 pixels per inch for line art (regardless of pixels per inch, it needs to be saved in the TIF or PNG format) will make things go most smoothly.
Quote from: Netaungrot on May 25, 2008, 01:00:25 AM
Quote from: PeregrineBF on May 24, 2008, 11:47:22 AM
The typographer in me wants to agree with Nigel, but I think having more material to typeset would be a good idea first.
That said, LaTeX is FTW.
You don't understand, she's just being a sarcastic cunt.
Awww, did I hurt your feelings? :cry:
Quote from: Nigel on May 25, 2008, 02:37:38 AM
Quote from: Netaungrot on May 25, 2008, 01:00:25 AM
Quote from: PeregrineBF on May 24, 2008, 11:47:22 AM
The typographer in me wants to agree with Nigel, but I think having more material to typeset would be a good idea first.
That said, LaTeX is FTW.
You don't understand, she's just being a sarcastic cunt.
Awww, did I hurt your feelings? :cry:
Yes, I was devastated by you mocking my distaste for Arial.
:roll:
I was just going to let it go, but if you want to come into threads for no other purpose than to try to antagonize me, I can return the favor.
:popcorn:
HEY YOU FUCKING DISCORDIANS! quit sewing discord in my thread!
Quote from: vexati0n on May 25, 2008, 05:12:38 AM
HEY YOU FUCKING DISCORDIANS! quit sewing discord in my thread!
<AHEM> it's "sowing"!
Totally just kidding, I will stop being flippant about this now, and I'm sorry, Net and Vex.
Quote from: Nigel on May 25, 2008, 07:18:19 AM
Quote from: vexati0n on May 25, 2008, 05:12:38 AM
HEY YOU FUCKING DISCORDIANS! quit sewing discord in my thread!
<AHEM> it's "sowing"!
Totally just kidding, I will stop being flippant about this now, and I'm sorry, Net and Vex.
Apology accepted.
More importantly - I can't sign up and the computer is telling me that Mangrove is already in use as a user name. :? :cry:
uhm.. there's no Mangrove. I'll make you an account and PM you your username/password.
I can do some black and white illustrations if people tell me what they want.
ALSO: I'm not big on backgrounds. So there.
<ego> this discussion should be taking place at the Repository </ego>
:|
Quote from: vexati0n on May 28, 2008, 03:59:43 PM
uhm.. there's no Mangrove. I'll make you an account and PM you your username/password.
thank you!
Quote from: vexati0n on May 28, 2008, 05:18:47 PM
<ego> this discussion should be taking place at the Repository </ego>
please keep us updated on any happenings, though. i can't check your depository all the time sorry :)
UPDATE: Lollercaust Proofreading Pls (ALSO, GIT OUT UR FUCKING CHECKBOOK)
The large version lollercaust idea was tearfully abandoned. It was slowly revealed that everyone interested is in a state of chronic poverty, losing butt fat by the week (it's the last to go).
We're sticking with standard formats because large = 'spensive. Well, how about if the design required a slightly larger printer (tabloid, A3) , BUT you only need to print two one-sided pages.
This was an exercise in legibility—even though larger is better for this design—it's possible to print these out on letter and A4 sized sheets and still read it (look for the "fit to printable area" option). When I'm bored enough on public transportation, I'll read the Cheetos packaging some fingerlicking mouthbreather left tucked between the seats or the fine print on the tickets to a show. I know there are people with good eyesight out there, curious enough to read such tiny type.
Now, my guinea spags, read as much of this as you can at different sizes and report back grievances as specifically as possible. I won't take offense. This is the only one out the series that I have hammered out.
:hammer:
11x17
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4863/lollercaustposter11x17ry8.jpg) (http://www.cwyohba.org/noexit/net/lollercaust-poster-11x17.pdf)
Kay. I printed out a copy on 8x11 and an 11x17... My office seems to be out of A4 paper.
Initial reactions:
It's an interesting layout. I like how you have to actually rotate the page to read all the text.
I like the dingbats - I was worried that a big block of text like this would be difficult to read (usually it's a recepie for tl;dr) but I think the dingbats help a bit.
On 8x11, the text is nearly unreadable. I have to squint, and I don't think I'd read more than one section before my eyes were sore. There's a lot of white space on the page. It's sexy, but it doesn't justify such small text. On the 11x17 size it's still small. I think the voracious readers would stick with it, but someone with mild interest will lose interest quickly. I'm one of the people that gets bored and reads the cheetos wrappers, so I think I'd stick with it, but unless we ellicit a lol or two in the first 30 seconds of reading, I think they'll only be reading for 30 seconds.
Maybe decrease the number of stories per sheet? We could have five different lollercaust sheets, with maybe three stories on each? If the intent is to get strangers to read it (which I believe is the goal), we need to make it more accessable to random half-literate morans.
Thanks for the feedback Cram, I'll make some revisions.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 16, 2008, 03:54:29 PM
Maybe decrease the number of stories per sheet? We could have five different lollercaust sheets, with maybe three stories on each? If the intent is to get strangers to read it (which I believe is the goal), we need to make it more accessable to random half-literate morans.
TITCM
With the density of the text body (due to using dingbats to signal new paragraphs rather than indents) I think the viewer NEEDS more white space to rest their eyes.
I'm going to try to use as little as possible and see what I can get away with, but for the moment I'd thought I'd show you an exaggerated interpretation of your critique, Cram. In my mind, the problems with the first version compared to overdoing the suggestions in the other direction can help me triangulate exactly where we should be going. If that makes sense.
8.5 x 11
(http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5803/lollercaustmodernsisyphxn1.jpg) (http://www.cwyohba.org/noexit/net/lollercaust-modern-sisyphus-8.5x11.pdf)
these layouts are so goddamn awesome i'm going to print them at A3 at my local copyshop.
damn Net, AWESOME WORK MAN
srsly.
:thanks:
I'm very pleased you can dig it, 000.
Do keep in mind that even at A3 size the type on the first one may be too small for some (maybe even most) people.
Also, I encourage any and all negative feedback.
Quote from: Netaungrot on June 18, 2008, 03:47:26 AM
Also, I encourage any and all negative feedback.
IT SUCKS AND YOU SHOULD CHOKE ON A RUBBER CHICKEN FOR HAVING MADE IT
Just kidding. These are cool, and I look forward to future variations.
Quote from: Cainad on June 18, 2008, 03:50:54 AM
Quote from: Netaungrot on June 18, 2008, 03:47:26 AM
Also, I encourage any and all negative feedback.
IT SUCKS AND YOU SHOULD CHOKE ON A RUBBER CHICKEN FOR HAVING MADE IT
Just kidding. These are cool, and I look forward to future variations.
Thanks dude.
Really though, even if the slightest thing irks you I'd like to hear about it.
I can't really read it myself, though printed out it probably wont be as bad
Definitely bigger for ease of reading, with no more than three items per page, I think. I'd stay away from black or dark backgrounds because that's harder for the average schmoe to print out multiple copies of on his own printer, but maybe alternate versions, some with white backgrounds and others with cool backgrounds, would be a good idea.
Oh, and here's your
(http://www.allybelly.com/rubber_chicken.jpg)
Love the layout! Totally sweet, and eye-catching as hell.
The only problem I have with it is that it's not in Arial. :(
Quote from: Nigel on June 18, 2008, 07:50:34 AM
Love the layout! Totally sweet, and eye-catching as hell.
The only problem I have with it is that it's not in Arial. :(
:fuckmittens:
Great stuff Net.
Thanks for the support guys.
I'm carefully considering your suggestions/criticisms, so don't hold back.
Shit on my face.
It's an important part of the creative process.
Quote from: Netaungrot on June 17, 2008, 08:30:45 PM
8.5 x 11
(http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5803/lollercaustmodernsisyphxn1.jpg) (http://www.cwyohba.org/noexit/net/lollercaust-modern-sisyphus-8.5x11.pdf)
Just printed a few copies of this out, to let it sink in.
I really like it. The text size is about right, and the dingbats really do help the readability. I would prefer to see the "By Hoopla" relocated somewhere else, as the author credit kind of decreases the "punchline" / oomph at the end of the text. It's distracting.
I'm liking the one piece per page. It really makes you focus in on that piece and digest it (rather than going on to another adjacent parable). I'd like to peruse a PDF with two pieces per page, perhaps?
The play of text and blank space is really dramatic.
This is a really exciting way to Get The Word Out. This is the sort of thing that if I found on a train, I'd pocket it, take it home, and paste it into my scrapbook.
Question: How do you compile this into a pamphlet?
I'm guessing it wouldn't technically be a pamphlet so much as a book of handouts.
just printed at my university printer.
the letters of the bright one are still readable at A4, just very tiny :) now, you know layout better than me, but the margins between the blocks of text seem a bit uneven? especially around the history of Cybin piece.
the sisyphus one, margin on the bottom edge seems a tad cramped. same for the top-right diagonal one.
also the bottom edge is a few tens of degrees out of alignment with the page borders.
i don't like the blocky title font for "Modern Sisyphus"
pffff well that's all i can do. as you can see i'm stretching and nitpicking :)
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 19, 2008, 03:26:47 PM
I really like it. The text size is about right, and the dingbats really do help the readability.
It's an idea I stole from way better graphic designers.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 19, 2008, 03:26:47 PM
I would prefer to see the "By Hoopla" relocated somewhere else, as the author credit kind of decreases the "punchline" / oomph at the end of the text. It's distracting.
Agreed.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 19, 2008, 03:26:47 PMI'm liking the one piece per page. It really makes you focus in on that piece and digest it (rather than going on to another adjacent parable). I'd like to peruse a PDF with two pieces per page, perhaps?
I'll try some with 2-3 per page.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on June 19, 2008, 03:26:47 PMThis is a really exciting way to Get The Word Out. This is the sort of thing that if I found on a train, I'd pocket it, take it home, and paste it into my scrapbook.
:D
Quote from: LMNO on June 19, 2008, 03:29:06 PM
Question: How do you compile this into a pamphlet?
If "this" refers to the letter size page, you'd just staple them, or use a hole punch and twine, or japanese book binding. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XHfwe_VfbM)
Also, I'm trying to avoid a situation where people have to figure out the confusing matter of printing a double sided, folding booklet. Less hoops to jump through, etcetera.
And there's a bit of a problem tying all these together in a visual sense. They're all very different styles, dealing with very different topics, so I'm thinking I might as well play that up by putting them on separate pages.
Quote from: triple zero on June 19, 2008, 04:34:11 PM
the letters of the bright one are still readable at A4, just very tiny :) now, you know layout better than me, but the margins between the blocks of text seem a bit uneven? especially around the history of Cybin piece.
I think it probably will look much cleaner when I even out the margins.
The funk is strong in that version. Wait til you see the developed version, it's even funkier.
The biggest problem I've identified with the "poster" concept, besides it requiring the viewer to move it around in space, is that it costs about 5 bucks a pop to print a 2 x 3 foot black and white poster in small runs.
Quote from: triple zero on June 19, 2008, 04:34:11 PM
the sisyphus one, margin on the bottom edge seems a tad cramped. same for the top-right diagonal one.
It is a bit cramped. I could fix that pretty easily.
Quote from: triple zero on June 19, 2008, 04:34:11 PM
also the bottom edge is a few tens of degrees out of alignment with the page borders.
Good eyes, sir.
Another easy fix.
Quote from: triple zero on June 19, 2008, 04:34:11 PM
i don't like the blocky title font for "Modern Sisyphus"
pffff well that's all i can do. as you can see i'm stretching and nitpicking :)
This is good. I'd like everybody to feel comfortable picking nits.
I thought someone would mention that. It's a pixel font that's designed only for computer screens and only at a specific size. It was an outlandish thing for me to do, and it's been done before, but the idea was to reference the interwebs.
And that's the main sticking point for me. How to tie in the internet in a compelling way. Just using a pixel font probably is a bit of a cop out. But maybe we need to call it something else, because the content doesn't seem to reference the internet enough to justify calling it the lollercaust.
Here is the aforementioned developed poster idea with all the Lollercaust writings on it, and at a comfortable reading size. I know it's not practical, but I had to get it out of my system.
2x3 ft.
(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5274/lollercaustposter2x3ftpn8.png) (http://www.cwyohba.org/noexit/net/lollercaust-poster-2x3ft.pdf)
Now I can get down and dirty with the booklet—please stand by.
That looks beautiful.
Quote from: LMNO on June 19, 2008, 08:46:03 PM
That looks beautiful.
Agreed.
If it were possible to make a couple of those, even at that huge size, it'd be worth it. Imagine standing somewhere next to a Coke machine and seeing this beauty plastered to the side?
Who was it that had access to large-size printing?
I'm pretty sure it was Mourning_Star.
Quote from: R.W.H.N? on June 19, 2008, 09:02:44 PM
I'm pretty sure it was Mourning_Star.
Didn't he lose said access shortly after acquiring it?
Net, that is filled with wondrous beauty.
AWESOME
I must find a very large printer... STAT!
:thanks:
I'm flattered.
Minor edits have been made, so if you want a slightly less funky version click the image again.
That is unfathomably purdy.
:eek: Fuckin sleek!
Quote from: Netaungrot on June 19, 2008, 06:14:52 PM
The funk is strong in that version. Wait til you see the developed version, it's even funkier.
definitely.
QuoteThe biggest problem I've identified with the "poster" concept, besides it requiring the viewer to move it around in space, is that it costs about 5 bucks a pop to print a 2 x 3 foot black and white poster in small runs.
well, there's another thing that just came to mind.
because half the texts are rotated or upside-down, the reader needs to turn and move the paper. which is a cool idea because it increases the interaction.
but if the paper is 2x3' and hanging on a wall, how are they going to read the upside-down texts? you can't really expect them to turn their neck, no matter how cool the text content, it's annoying.
QuoteQuote from: triple zero on June 19, 2008, 04:34:11 PM
also the bottom edge is a few tens of degrees out of alignment with the page borders.
Good eyes, sir.
Another easy fix.
i noticed because i saw some tiny staircase pixels in my printout.
Quote from: triple zero on June 19, 2008, 04:34:11 PMI thought someone would mention that. It's a pixel font that's designed only for computer screens and only at a specific size. It was an outlandish thing for me to do, and it's been done before, but the idea was to reference the interwebs.
And that's the main sticking point for me. How to tie in the internet in a compelling way. Just using a pixel font probably is a bit of a cop out. But maybe we need to call it something else, because the content doesn't seem to reference the internet enough to justify calling it the lollercaust.
i mostly don't like the way it's not very readable if the blocks are that big. maybe a bit more detailed block font would be better.
on the other hand, pixel blocks remind me of the C64, old arcade games and BBS ASCII art, not the internets.
we don't have block fonts on the internets, much.
you'd get closer by using the "white rabbit" font (or something similar) a kind of rounded terminal style font reminiscent of the Matrix.
or, how about this idea: make the title a hyperlink (so, underline it) and point your mouse pointer at it, so it turns into the little hand-icon (make sure to get the default Windows one for optimal recognizability), take a screenshot of that and blow it up to show the pixels.
instant internets feeling!
As impractical as it is, I would hang this up on my wall anyhow for the sheer sexiness of it!
Quote from: triple zero on June 20, 2008, 12:28:28 PM
because half the texts are rotated or upside-down, the reader needs to turn and move the paper. which is a cool idea because it increases the interaction.
but if the paper is 2x3' and hanging on a wall, how are they going to read the upside-down texts? you can't really expect them to turn their neck, no matter how cool the text content, it's annoying.
Maybe they could be applied with packing tape along the top and bottom, and I could add little instructions to cut it down if people want it.
i noticed because i saw some tiny staircase pixels in my printout.
Quote from: triple zero on June 20, 2008, 12:28:28 PM
Quote from: triple zero on June 19, 2008, 04:34:11 PMI thought someone would mention that. It's a pixel font that's designed only for computer screens and only at a specific size. It was an outlandish thing for me to do, and it's been done before, but the idea was to reference the interwebs.
And that's the main sticking point for me. How to tie in the internet in a compelling way. Just using a pixel font probably is a bit of a cop out. But maybe we need to call it something else, because the content doesn't seem to reference the internet enough to justify calling it the lollercaust.
i mostly don't like the way it's not very readable if the blocks are that big. maybe a bit more detailed block font would be better.
on the other hand, pixel blocks remind me of the C64, old arcade games and BBS ASCII art, not the internets.
we don't have block fonts on the internets, much.
you'd get closer by using the "white rabbit" font (or something similar) a kind of rounded terminal style font reminiscent of the Matrix.
or, how about this idea: make the title a hyperlink (so, underline it) and point your mouse pointer at it, so it turns into the little hand-icon (make sure to get the default Windows one for optimal recognizability), take a screenshot of that and blow it up to show the pixels.
instant internets feeling!
Excellent input.
Though, I'm not completely sold on the Lollercaust concept still... not enough intarwebs relevance, IMO.
Again, I appreciate all the support and criticisms very much.
:D
It is not hard to read sideways and upside-down, and it would slow people down so that they would notice something new each time they read it for quite some time. Like a Dr. Bronner's bottle.