How severe would the reason have to be to make the fact that you had a choice irrelevant?
Example: you're driving someone else's car and a milktruck is coming straight at you.
You decide to avoid the milktruck and drive straight into the river.
Result: Car ruined but you're still alive.
My opinion: its still your fault the car is ruined.
What is with all the serious threads in my fluff forum? :argh!:
did you drive your car into a river Regret? :lol:
Did you drive your car into a river of regret?
this serious thread was specifically created too prove that i hate you, now go away.
worse, i had an actual discussion.... :cry: i hate it when people still disagree with me when i stop talking. besides i dont have a car.
other example: your best friend has been depressed lately and wants to kill himself.
You decide to tape him to a chair and feed him antidepressants(hmmm chocolate) 'till he gests better.
Result: you mistreated your best friend but you kept him from making a mistake.
My opinion: You should apologize for the ducttape-incident.
PS. this opinion pissed off my niece... she had a suicide intervention thingy a few years ago.
So you're have a means/ends sort of deal.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 12:29:43 AM
How severe would the reason have to be to make the fact that you had a choice irrelevant?
Example: you're driving someone else's car and a milktruck is coming straight at you.
You decide to avoid the milktruck and drive straight into the river.
Result: Car ruined but you're still alive.
My opinion: its still your fault the car is ruined.
Why isn't it the fucking milk truck driver's fault? He was driving right at me.
I call bullshit.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:21:00 AM
this serious thread was specifically created too prove that i hate you, now go away.
worse, i had an actual discussion.... :cry: i hate it when people still disagree with me when i stop talking. besides i dont have a car.
other example: your best friend has been depressed lately and wants to kill himself.
You decide to tape him to a chair and feed him antidepressants(hmmm chocolate) 'till he gests better.
Result: you mistreated your best friend but you kept him from making a mistake.
My opinion: You should apologize for the ducttape-incident.
PS. this opinion pissed off my niece... she had a suicide intervention thingy a few years ago.
Then, fine. I'm not helping the fucking bastard. Let him die.
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on June 09, 2008, 01:22:05 AM
So you're have a means/ends sort of deal.
that is one way this could go.
i'm (partly) trying to find out how(and if) people incorporate individual responsibility into their lives.
Its the milkman's fault that your choices were limited, but you are still the one who made the choice of not dying in a bloody milkshake.
You are still responsible for the consequences of your actions.
not that anyone remotely humane would actually hate you for that.
you wouldn't keep your best friend from commiting suicide because i would think you should apologize for doing something unethical while trying to save his life? hmmmm interesting...
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:34:50 AM
Its the milkman's fault that your choices were limited, but you are still the one who made the choice of not dying in a bloody milkshake.
You are still responsible for the consequences of your actions.
Horse shit. I am not responsible for the bad actions (or bad driving of others).
You preach the philosophy of a slave.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:34:50 AM
you wouldn't keep your best friend from commiting suicide because i would think you should apologize for doing something unethical while trying to save his life? hmmmm interesting...
Well, if it's unethical, then I'm not going to do it. Fuck it. Let the little snot die.
of course you're not! the only thing you are responsible for is how you act and react.
Wouldn't a slave's philosophy be 'i only did it because i had to'?
that is what you are saying: 'the milkman's actions dictated my own' or 'i had no choice, the milkman made me do it'
the slave is responsible for everything he does or doesn't (like get a fucking knife and use it!)
it's unethical to not save, the action needed to save is also unethical, choose wich you find more important, do it and don't lie to yourself about what you did.
followed by the most important step: get over it, you made your choice.
or you could just pick a better way to save someone
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:56:18 AM
of course you're not! the only thing you are responsible for is how you act and react.
So a rape victim is responsible for catching the rapist's eye?
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:56:18 AM
Wouldn't a slave's philosophy be 'i only did it because i had to'?
No. A slave's philosophy is "It's my fault, no matter what".
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:56:18 AM
that is what you are saying: 'the milkman's actions dictated my own' or 'i had no choice, the milkman made me do it'
When the milk man aims a 2 ton truck at you, what are your fucking options, and who is fucking responsible for the situation?
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:56:18 AM
it's unethical to not save, the action needed to save is also unethical, choose wich you find more important,
If there's no ethical solution, then I'm looking next to liability. Fuck him.
That's a great world you envision, there.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:03:18 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:56:18 AM
of course you're not! the only thing you are responsible for is how you act and react.
So a rape victim is responsible for catching the rapist's eye?
yes, and the rapist is responsible for acting on his eye being caught.
and the victim is responsible for his or her level of resistance.
and the rapist is responsible for not killing himself.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:03:18 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:56:18 AM
Wouldn't a slave's philosophy be 'i only did it because i had to'?
No. A slave's philosophy is "It's my fault, no matter what".
I prefer a philosophy like "Its my fault, so what? i had a choice and i made it."
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:03:18 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:56:18 AM
that is what you are saying: 'the milkman's actions dictated my own' or 'i had no choice, the milkman made me do it'
When the milk man aims a 2 ton truck at you, what are your fucking options, and who is fucking responsible for the situation?
your options are avoid or die. the milkman is responsible for the situation and you are responsible for the effects of choosing to live.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:03:18 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:56:18 AM
it's unethical to not save, the action needed to save is also unethical, choose wich you find more important,
If there's no ethical solution, then I'm looking next to liability. Fuck him.
That's a great world you envision, there.
there is no absolute ethical solution but there is a most ethical solution, assuming you have some form of honour ofcourse.
oh and don't you ever dare us me as an ethical guide TEFY, S!
Question: why does any of it have to be ANYbody's fault?
Why can't it just be circumstance? There ARE such things as unintentional consequences, and therefore no fault. Sounds to me, Regret, as if you are having problems accepting that sometimes, shit just happens.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 02:24:50 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:03:18 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:56:18 AM
of course you're not! the only thing you are responsible for is how you act and react.
So a rape victim is responsible for catching the rapist's eye?
yes, and the rapist is responsible for acting on his eye being caught.
and the victim is responsible for his or her level of resistance.
and the rapist is responsible for not killing himself.
are you fucking serious?
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 02:29:48 AM
Question: why does any of it have to be ANYbody's fault?
Why can't it just be circumstance? There ARE such things as unintentional consequences, and therefore no fault. Sounds to me, Regret, as if you are having problems accepting that sometimes, shit just happens.
Regret postulates that, for example, a man who throws himself in front of a bullet intended for another is a suicide, rather than the shooter simply being a murderer.
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 02:30:30 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:29:57 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 02:24:50 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:03:18 AM
So a rape victim is responsible for catching the rapist's eye?
yes,
That's all I needed to hear.
Yeah, that's like saying it's our faults we were born. No logic.
It's abhorrent on its very face. It is the philosophy of the cabbage.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 02:24:50 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:03:18 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:56:18 AM
of course you're not! the only thing you are responsible for is how you act and react.
So a rape victim is responsible for catching the rapist's eye?
yes, and the rapist is responsible for acting on his eye being caught.
and the victim is responsible for his or her level of resistance.
and the rapist is responsible for not killing himself.
Reminds me of those horrible WSIB Canadian "accident prevention" commercials.
Quoteyour options are avoid or die. the milkman is responsible for the situation and you are responsible for the effects of choosing to live.
:emo:
Also, would you technically belong to the milkman? :lulz:
Yeah, I'm not understanding what the mental blockage is here.
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 02:29:48 AM
Question: why does any of it have to be ANYbody's fault?
Why can't it just be circumstance? There ARE such things as unintentional consequences, and therefore no fault. Sounds to me, Regret, as if you are having problems accepting that sometimes, shit just happens.
shit happens and how you handle shit happening is your responsibility.
where there is choice there is responsibility.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:29:57 AM
That's all I needed to hear.
crap. i knew someone was gonna jump on that one.
the reason i said yes is because catching is an active word so its something you do, and therefore i assumed you have the choice not to do it. if you have no choice in the matter then its something else but the situations where you have no choice are rarer then you think.
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 02:30:30 AM
Yeah, that's like saying it's our faults we were born. No logic.
there's no choice in being born.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:31:21 AM
Regret postulates that, for example, a man who throws himself in front of a bullet intended for another is a suicide, rather than the shooter simply being a murderer.
its suicide for the hero and murder for the shooter. there IS such a thing as shared responsibility. if the hero wasn't responsible for his actions that implies he had no choice. so why call him a hero then?
There's no choice in avoiding an accident on the road and saving your life, either. Who fucking cares about the car?
See, I think you are picking out minutia that in the end, don't fucking matter, and shouldn't matter, and if they do, in the scheme of things, that person focusing on it should just shoot themselves and get it over with because life is too damned short to live like that.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 02:48:48 AM
shit happens and how you handle shit happening is your responsibility.
Bullshit. A bad act by one renders all of the consequences - and responsibility - on that one.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 02:48:48 AM
where there is choice there is responsibility.
The examples given gave no choices. Only means to mitigate the bad actions of the originating individual.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 02:48:48 AM
crap. i knew someone was gonna jump on that one.
Yeah. Huge holes in your argument can have that effect.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 02:48:48 AM
its suicide for the hero and murder for the shooter.
Okay. Then we can cancel the life insurance policies of anyone who does so. The secret service, for example.
It's a good thing your argument is fundamentally flawed, because your philosophy is a fucked up way to view the world.
i hereby declare Regret a RETARD
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 02:51:48 AM
There's no choice in avoiding an accident on the road and saving your life, either. Who fucking cares about the car?
See, I think you are picking out minutia that in the end, don't fucking matter, and shouldn't matter, and if they do, in the scheme of things, that person focusing on it should just shoot themselves and get it over with because life is too damned short to live like that.
More to the point, we should just stop putting murderers in jail.
Or, conversely, we should sentence women who get raped.
What do you say, Regret? Would 20 years be enough to teach them to wear burkhas?
The Talibs did that already--wait, no, they stoned them to death.
Feh, same difference.
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 02:55:08 AM
The Talibs did that already--wait, no, they stoned them to death.
Feh, same difference.
WELL, SHE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR BEING RAPED! :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:55:44 AM
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 02:55:08 AM
The Talibs did that already--wait, no, they stoned them to death.
Feh, same difference.
WELL, SHE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR BEING RAPED! :lulz:
Yeah...she's the one with the vagina, so it's all her fault.
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 02:56:26 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:55:44 AM
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 02:55:08 AM
The Talibs did that already--wait, no, they stoned them to death.
Feh, same difference.
WELL, SHE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR BEING RAPED! :lulz:
Yeah...she's the one with the vagina, so it's all her fault.
LOOK HOW SHE WAS DRESSED!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:57:02 AM
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 02:56:26 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:55:44 AM
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 02:55:08 AM
The Talibs did that already--wait, no, they stoned them to death.
Feh, same difference.
WELL, SHE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR BEING RAPED! :lulz:
Yeah...she's the one with the vagina, so it's all her fault.
LOOK HOW SHE WAS DRESSED!
Yeah, no excuse for Afghans on that one. Dumbasses.
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 02:51:48 AM
There's no choice in avoiding an accident on the road and saving your life, either. Who fucking cares about the car?
See, I think you are picking out minutia that in the end, don't fucking matter, and shouldn't matter, and if they do, in the scheme of things, that person focusing on it should just shoot themselves and get it over with because life is too damned short to live like that.
very well the easiest choices aren't choices, but at what point does linear causality dissolve into choice?
or are there no choices?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:53:15 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 02:48:48 AM
shit happens and how you handle shit happening is your responsibility.
Bullshit. A bad act by one renders all of the consequences - and responsibility - on that one.
assuming all other acts are less bad(or neutral or good)?
so the worst actor is the one on whom all the responsibilty falls.
Are those that do not help the rape victim responsible for what happened within their realm of influence or not?
Quote from: Fred, the Best Person EVAR!!! on June 09, 2008, 02:53:32 AM
i hereby declare Regret a RETARD
i love you too.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:06:28 AM
assuming all other acts are less bad(or neutral or good)?
so the worst actor is the one on whom all the responsibilty falls.
Are those that do not help the rape victim responsible for what happened within their realm of influence or not?
Nope. The initial bad actor is the one on whom the responsibility falls.
And the 17th century wants its views on rape back.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 02:24:50 AM
yes, and the rapist is responsible for acting on his eye being caught.
and the victim is responsible for his or her level of resistance.
and the rapist is responsible for not killing himself.
wow I can't even count the ways that is retarded
"level of resistance..?"
should have bulked up in the gym before hand?
When the obvious choice (save your own ass, fuck the car) is the ONLY choice, you don't have a choice. Get it? You. Don't. Have. A. Choice. Responsibility ORVER.
Unless you're: 1) from the medieval times 2) from Afghanistan (same thing) or 3) the insurance company.
did i SAY the victim was responsible for getting raped? NO! i said she was responsible for actively 'cathing his eye' that is all.(hypothetical situation as i perceived it, i'm not saying its usually like that) Its not a bad thing she did that and i'm not saying she's responsible for anything that someone else chose to do. you do not chose to get raped so thats not the victims fault.
Have i made myself clear?
choice requires the power to influence the result, with power comes responsibility. go read the first spiderman comic.
you are responsible for the results of your choices.
i'm repeating myself.
K. You're really srs, arencha, saying to go read the comic book. :lulz:
Anyway, no, choice is not power, etc. when it's life and death. Which is why they call it an "accident."
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:16:04 AM
did i SAY the victim was responsible for getting raped? NO! i said she was responsible for actively 'cathing his eye' that is all.
There is no fucking difference.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:16:04 AM
choice requires the power to influence the result, with power comes responsibility. go read the first spiderman comic.
:mullet:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 03:21:08 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:16:04 AM
did i SAY the victim was responsible for getting raped? NO! i said she was responsible for actively 'cathing his eye' that is all.
There is no fucking difference.
Word. Same thing.
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 03:17:26 AM
K. You're really srs, arencha, saying to go read the comic book. :lulz:
Somewhere, Marcus Tullius Cicero is rotating in his grave at about 3600 RPM.
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 03:22:17 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 03:21:08 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:16:04 AM
did i SAY the victim was responsible for getting raped? NO! i said she was responsible for actively 'cathing his eye' that is all.
There is no fucking difference.
Word. Same thing.
And how did she "actively" catch his eye? I don't get that part.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 03:08:26 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:06:28 AM
assuming all other acts are less bad(or neutral or good)?
so the worst actor is the one on whom all the responsibilty falls.
Are those that do not help the rape victim responsible for what happened within their realm of influence or not?
Nope. The initial bad actor is the one on whom the responsibility falls.
And the 17th century wants its views on rape back.
really? i always feel like punching the people that just stand around watching bad things happen without interfering. they are not equally responsible but they are responsible for not improving the situation.
oh and responsibilty =/= blame
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on June 09, 2008, 03:10:58 AM
wow I can't even count the ways that is retarded
"level of resistance..?"
should have bulked up in the gym before hand?
no i'm talking at the moment... it is a retarded point though sorry for that one.
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 03:12:39 AM
When the obvious choice (save your own ass, fuck the car) is the ONLY choice, you don't have a choice. Get it? You. Don't. Have. A. Choice. Responsibility ORVER.
Unless you're: 1) from the medieval times 2) from Afghanistan (same thing) or 3) the insurance company.
1. imagine a slightly les obvious choice.
2. is there a real choice now?
IF no GOTO 1.
IF yes voilá! responsibility starts at this point.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:24:48 AM
really? i always feel like punching the people that just stand around watching bad things happen without interfering. they are not equally responsible but they are responsible for not improving the situation.
Wait. So now even if you DON'T make a decision, you're responsible?
And tell us what YOU did, hero.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 03:23:06 AM
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 03:22:17 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 03:21:08 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:16:04 AM
did i SAY the victim was responsible for getting raped? NO! i said she was responsible for actively 'cathing his eye' that is all.
There is no fucking difference.
Word. Same thing.
And how did she "actively" catch his eye? I don't get that part.
the actively part was my misconception of what you meant with cacthing his eye and what caused my response of "yes."
I now realize i was being very dense there.
let me explain with another example:
if i walk in a dark and unsafe street and get mugged i am responsible for walking there, let me explain further:
i am responsible for the wear and tear i am inflicting on the street, i am responsible for breating the air there, i am in no way responsible for getting mugged. i could walk there juggling bars of gold(i couldn't for i am not that strong and i do not own any gold but thats beside the point) buttnaked and too drunk to notice the "mug me" note tacked to my back and it still wouldn't be my fault.
same point.
i apologize for the misunderstanding.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:34:34 AM
if i walk in a dark and unsafe street and get mugged i am responsible for walking there,
Pfffffffffffffft.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 03:29:10 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:24:48 AM
really? i always feel like punching the people that just stand around watching bad things happen without interfering. they are not equally responsible but they are responsible for not improving the situation.
Wait. So now even if you DON'T make a decision, you're responsible?
And tell us what YOU did, hero.
there is a difference between not acting and not choosing, you can choose not to act. I'd either slap them for being unable to help or for being able to help but not willing. either way they need a wakeup call.
i once walked away from 3 or 4 guys beating up a tourist, i hope i'll never be that weak again.
Wait. Now you're saying that being "responsible" for bad things happening is not the same as being "at fault".
Crap. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...Sophistry.
:x
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:38:21 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 03:29:10 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:24:48 AM
really? i always feel like punching the people that just stand around watching bad things happen without interfering. they are not equally responsible but they are responsible for not improving the situation.
Wait. So now even if you DON'T make a decision, you're responsible?
And tell us what YOU did, hero.
there is a difference between not acting and not choosing, you can choose not to act. I'd either slap them for being unable to help or for being able to help but not willing. either way they need a wakeup call.
i once walked away from 3 or 4 guys beating up a tourist, i hope i'll never be that weak again.
So you demand things of others that you can't or won't do on your own.
This guilt trip of yours explains this thread, anyway.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 03:38:43 AM
Wait. Now you're saying that being "responsible" for bad things happening is not the same as being "at fault".
Crap. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...Semantics.
:x
fixxed.
demand? no, prefer? yes.
I don't have the authority to demand anything.
This guilt trip is one of the reasons why choice, responsiblity and free will interest me, so... yeah its one of the causes of this thread.
The sun is almost rising here so i'm going to get some sleep, thanks for all the responses.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:49:42 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 03:38:43 AM
Wait. Now you're saying that being "responsible" for bad things happening is not the same as being "at fault".
Crap. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...Semantics.
:x
fixxed.
Same thing, in this case.
Duuude. :lulz: I must be damned bored to keep typing in this thread.
Regret, you chose fucked up examples to explain something that's patently wrong when applied to those very same examples.
You cannot put blame OR responsibility on someone who survives tragedies. Period. E/O/T
Quote
i once walked away from 3 or 4 guys beating up a tourist, i hope i'll never be that weak again.
do you really think they needed your help?
Quote from: rong on June 09, 2008, 04:04:03 AM
Quote
i once walked away from 3 or 4 guys beating up a tourist, i hope i'll never be that weak again.
do you really think they needed your help?
:potd:
Quote from: rong on June 09, 2008, 04:04:03 AM
Quote
i once walked away from 3 or 4 guys beating up a tourist, i hope i'll never be that weak again.
do you really think they needed your help?
:lulz:
This is why I never trust anyone who can't construct and type a grammatical sentence.
QuoteI now realize i was being very dense there.
Yes.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:21:00 AM
this serious thread was specifically created too prove that i hate you, now go away.
worse, i had an actual discussion.... :cry: i hate it when people still disagree with me when i stop talking. besides i dont have a car.
other example: your best friend has been depressed lately and wants to kill himself.
You decide to tape him to a chair and feed him antidepressants(hmmm chocolate) 'till he gests better.
Result: you mistreated your best friend but you kept him from making a mistake.
My opinion: You should apologize for the ducttape-incident.
PS. this opinion pissed off my niece... she had a suicide intervention thingy a few years ago.
Are you 14? Seriously.
When you go to college, take an ethics course.
Then come back and try to have this insipid discussion.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:16:04 AM
did i SAY the victim was responsible for getting raped? NO! i said she was responsible for actively 'cathing his eye' that is all.
Oh, yeah, totally, she's TOTALLY responsible for being ALIVE and having a VAGINA. SHE WAS ASKING FOR IT!
Jesus, can you please just go away now? We already HAVE a 221.
I'd just like to quickly point out that the hypotheses of the OP is the very definition of cock and fail.
Quote from: Nigel on June 09, 2008, 06:12:02 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:16:04 AM
did i SAY the victim was responsible for getting raped? NO! i said she was responsible for actively 'cathing his eye' that is all.
Oh, yeah, totally, she's TOTALLY responsible for being ALIVE and having a VAGINA. SHE WAS ASKING FOR IT!
Jesus, can you please just go away now? We already HAVE a 221.
i seem to be unable to explain that i don't think the victim is responsible for getting raped or for causing to get raped.
my examples were very bad, apologies.
one last try: for free will to exist one must be responsible for their actions, but only if you have a choice.
when do you say someone has a choice?
if 1 the options are equal
or if 2 their life is not threatened
or... 3 in all situations where you have the ability to effect a change
(i choose 3)
i really seem unable to communicate :sad: ah well at least this was good practice.
i don't think that you're having trouble communicating. from what it looks like, people understand your position (I do, at least). They just reject it.
Ok, to what level do you think people are responsible for their choices? After all, in your (perhaps ill-chosen) example, the girl presumably didnt know the guy was going to turn out to be a rapist.
Suppose a simple scenario, you are driving from A to B. You have a choice of 2 routes, practically identical in terms of distance and road quality. One road has a large patch of black ice on a tight bend, causing you to crash if you take that route. Who's fault is the damage, yours, the gritters (who presumably missed that stretch), someone elses?
Regret, it seems to me that you're making the mistake of attaching a discernable linear narrative to the things that happen to a person, and assigning difinitive "cause", "effect", "blame", and "fault" to it.
Your refusal to trace the reasons or meaning behind actions further than 2 steps or so belies a willing passive ignorance that, while making life "simpler", also leads to horrifically bad conclusions.
There is no general rule about responsibility that is going to apply to all possible situations which it seems you're grasping for. Furthermore, there are neurological anomalies, predispositions, and developmental stages that affect responsibility in ways that we're only beginning to understand. On top of that there's the "bedrock" of social psychology called the "fundamental attribution error:" people have a great tendency to overestimate the role of a person's character, and underestimate the role of situational forces in explaining someone else's behavior.
(You may notice that for lulz sake this error is magnified and focused until burning occurs. This is the correct way to cook a lulzcow and adds a satisfying ropiness to lail.)
Quote from: Oedipus complex on June 09, 2008, 01:56:53 PM
Ok, to what level do you think people are responsible for their choices? After all, in your (perhaps ill-chosen) example, the girl presumably didnt know the guy was going to turn out to be a rapist.
Suppose a simple scenario, you are driving from A to B. You have a choice of 2 routes, practically identical in terms of distance and road quality. One road has a large patch of black ice on a tight bend, causing you to crash if you take that route. Who's fault is the damage, yours, the gritters (who presumably missed that stretch), someone elses?
the gritters.
the knowledge you have is ofcourse relevant. if you cannot predict the consequences of your actions then you can not be held responsible for the endresult.
just for the record TGRR came with that example, not that im trying to excuse my retarded response.
the reasons behind actions are important factors in the decision making process but if they are absolute in their power to change the outcome there is no choice to speak of, its all predetermined. If it is not possible to actively choose some option over the other(s) then there is no responsibility for anything ever.
I'm sorry Regret, I can't take the premise of this thread seriously at all. It's like Philosophy 101 for retards.
I think that this entire discussion suffers from IS/IS NOT syndrome.
I think Regret appears right in some sense... I, at least, consider myself responsible for my actions, even if those actions are in response to someone elses actions. I am responsible for everything that I choose to do. In his example of the car and milk truck... I would say that the driver may be responsible for driving into the river... but that does seem to be the best available choice that the driver had. Thus, while Responsibility may sit with the driver... Culpability probably does not. If the car owner was a friend, I'd bet that they would prefer a wet car that the insurance would take care of to a mashed car and friend, which the insurance would take care of... all except for the dead friend part.
The driver may be responsible for deciding how to avoid the collision, but not for the accident itself. To Illustrate, let's look at Regret's scenario and add an option.
The Milk truck is barreling towards our car, the river lies to the right, and some kids are playing on a sidewalk to the left. If we veer left, we'll mash a couple rugrats, but the car will be mostly fine. If we stay the course, the car, the truck and 'we' may get all mashed up, if we cut to the right, the car may get sunk, but we'll survive.
I think, in the above scenario, most people would choose the river... because, if they smashed a few kids on the bumper... they would consider those deaths to be their responsibility. Is responsibility limited to Left turns only? OR is the decision, the choice (whichever it may be), the responsibility of the driver?
However, while Our Actions may be Our Responsibility... I cannot agree that another persons actions are also our responsibility.
A rape victim is not responsible for the actions of the Rapist, just as the car driver is not responsible for the actions of the milk truck driver. However, each of us are responsible for our own actions. A rape victim may have NO CHOICE while the event is happening. The rapist may have weapons, or simply overpower the victim. However, the decisions post-trauma, in my opinion, appear as the responsibility of the victim... will they move forward with their lives, or will they spend the rest of their lives blaming every black man around for the actions of the rapist?
"Everything we are, Everything we want to be
is only happening in our reality- We Decide" - Dr. Phineas Waldolf Steel
Rat, you gave the only logical interpretation that could be placed on this pile of bullshit of a thread.
Paging Aini, paging Aini....
Quote from: LMNO on June 09, 2008, 02:06:57 PM
Regret, it seems to me that you're making the mistake of attaching a discernable linear narrative to the things that happen to a person, and assigning difinitive "cause", "effect", "blame", and "fault" to it.
Your refusal to trace the reasons or meaning behind actions further than 2 steps or so belies a willing passive ignorance that, while making life "simpler", also leads to horrifically bad conclusions.
QFT
Quote from: Jenne on June 09, 2008, 04:37:53 PM
Rat, you gave the only logical interpretation that could be placed on this pile of bullshit of a thread.
*notes that there's a reason he's called "Chatterer"* :eek:
i don't think i said that the actions of another person are our responsibility... but looking back i see how you'd think that.
Ratatosk you are my savior here thanks for clearing this mess up.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 04:59:14 PM
i don't think i said that the actions of another person are our responsibility... but looking back i see how you'd think that.
Ratatosk you are my savior here thanks for clearing this mess up.
Rata presented a totally different argument from you.
Just saying.
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2008, 05:08:04 PM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 04:59:14 PM
i don't think i said that the actions of another person are our responsibility... but looking back i see how you'd think that.
Ratatosk you are my savior here thanks for clearing this mess up.
Rata presented a totally different argument from you.
Just saying.
I dunno... I really read his first argument as being very similar. I think that he didn't clearly delineate between Responsibility and Culpability and thats where things went off the rails. But, I could be wrong.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 09, 2008, 05:11:16 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2008, 05:08:04 PM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 04:59:14 PM
i don't think i said that the actions of another person are our responsibility... but looking back i see how you'd think that.
Ratatosk you are my savior here thanks for clearing this mess up.
Rata presented a totally different argument from you.
Just saying.
I dunno... I really read his first argument as being very similar. I think that he didn't clearly delineate between Responsibility and Culpability and thats where things went off the rails. But, I could be wrong.
Well that's why your arguments are totally different. Culpability and responsability as you presented them are clearly not the same things, and conflating them as Regret did changes the argument focus entirely.
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2008, 05:28:18 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 09, 2008, 05:11:16 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2008, 05:08:04 PM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 04:59:14 PM
i don't think i said that the actions of another person are our responsibility... but looking back i see how you'd think that.
Ratatosk you are my savior here thanks for clearing this mess up.
Rata presented a totally different argument from you.
Just saying.
I dunno... I really read his first argument as being very similar. I think that he didn't clearly delineate between Responsibility and Culpability and thats where things went off the rails. But, I could be wrong.
Well that's why your arguments are totally different. Culpability and responsability as you presented them are clearly not the same things, and conflating them as Regret did changes the argument focus entirely.
Oh to be sure... I think, however, that it wasn't a 'different' argument, so much as he was erroneous in not being clear. I think I may have said what he meant to say is all ;-)
Or maybe not, but if not then the argument would make no sense and Regret usually seems to have some sense, so I'm guessing it was a communication error... maybe.
THERE ARE NO COMMUNICATION ERRORS EVER.
ESPECIALLY HERE.
Quote from: Cain on June 09, 2008, 05:48:12 PM
THERE ARE NO COMMUNICATION ERRORS EVER.
ESPECIALLY HERE.
ROFL
Hey, as long as communication errors lead to 6 pages of FAIL, I say Moar Communication Errors. Its good for the post count:
Big Boards Here We Come!!
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz :fnord:
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 09, 2008, 04:33:48 PM
I think that this entire discussion suffers from IS/IS NOT syndrome.
I think Regret appears right in some sense... I, at least, consider myself responsible for my actions, even if those actions are in response to someone elses actions. I am responsible for everything that I choose to do. In his example of the car and milk truck... I would say that the driver may be responsible for driving into the river... but that does seem to be the best available choice that the driver had. Thus, while Responsibility may sit with the driver... Culpability probably does not. If the car owner was a friend, I'd bet that they would prefer a wet car that the insurance would take care of to a mashed car and friend, which the insurance would take care of... all except for the dead friend part.
The driver may be responsible for deciding how to avoid the collision, but not for the accident itself. To Illustrate, let's look at Regret's scenario and add an option.
The Milk truck is barreling towards our car, the river lies to the right, and some kids are playing on a sidewalk to the left. If we veer left, we'll mash a couple rugrats, but the car will be mostly fine. If we stay the course, the car, the truck and 'we' may get all mashed up, if we cut to the right, the car may get sunk, but we'll survive.
I think, in the above scenario, most people would choose the river... because, if they smashed a few kids on the bumper... they would consider those deaths to be their responsibility. Is responsibility limited to Left turns only? OR is the decision, the choice (whichever it may be), the responsibility of the driver?
However, while Our Actions may be Our Responsibility... I cannot agree that another persons actions are also our responsibility.
A rape victim is not responsible for the actions of the Rapist, just as the car driver is not responsible for the actions of the milk truck driver. However, each of us are responsible for our own actions. A rape victim may have NO CHOICE while the event is happening. The rapist may have weapons, or simply overpower the victim. However, the decisions post-trauma, in my opinion, appear as the responsibility of the victim... will they move forward with their lives, or will they spend the rest of their lives blaming every black man around for the actions of the rapist?
"Everything we are, Everything we want to be
is only happening in our reality- We Decide" - Dr. Phineas Waldolf Steel
:mittens:
Well said.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:53:47 PM
the gritters.
the knowledge you have is ofcourse relevant. if you cannot predict the consequences of your actions then you can not be held responsible for the endresult.
just for the record TGRR came with that example, not that im trying to excuse my retarded response.
the reasons behind actions are important factors in the decision making process but if they are absolute in their power to change the outcome there is no choice to speak of, its all predetermined. If it is not possible to actively choose some option over the other(s) then there is no responsibility for anything ever.
Sorry, forgot the details of the example. And alright, that makes a lot more sense. You came across a little strange for a while there
Quote from: Fred, the Best Person EVAR!!! on June 09, 2008, 02:31:09 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 02:24:50 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:03:18 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:56:18 AM
of course you're not! the only thing you are responsible for is how you act and react.
So a rape victim is responsible for catching the rapist's eye?
yes, and the rapist is responsible for acting on his eye being caught.
and the victim is responsible for his or her level of resistance.
and the rapist is responsible for not killing himself.
are you fucking serious?
some of us dutch are weird like that. especially the "different" ones. part of the culture i guess. seriously, i learned SO MUCH reading this board.
also, Regret, you're in college right? some exact/beta thing? you should take an extracurricular course on Ethics (philosophy) as soon as you get the chance. i promise you won't regret it. (i see Nigel already suggested this.. srsly DO IT, it's good stuff, and if you got a cool professor, funny as well)
TAKE THE ETHICS COURSE
it'll show you how retarded EVERY ethical position is, but more importantly, how certain positions are definitely more retarded than others, especially in specific situations.
cause then, next time you get a silly question like this you can pose them this utilitarian ethic dilemma:
1) you are an operator of a railroad switch. the railroads head into the mountains. due to some mistake you now that there's one guy working in the one tunnel, but five guys working in the other. five ppl die, or one person dies. what do you do?
2) you're a doctor in a hospital. one guy gets brought in with a broken leg, turns out he has some very rare bloodtype. five other guys are dying unless they get a blood-transfusion of that particular rare type. getting all that blood from the guy with the broken leg will surely kill him. five ppl die, or one person dies. what do you do?
oh and RBoG:
Quote from: Rabid Badger of God on June 09, 2008, 05:58:54 AMThis is why I never trust anyone who can't construct and type a grammatical sentence.
apart from Regret making some horrible dumb arguments in this thread, please to be aware that we now have a variety of posters on this board whose first language is not english. deal with it. personally i think it's damned cool that i can have meaningful conversations with people on the other side of the globe, but if you can't separate their dumb arguments from the occasional linguistic mistake, that is your loss.
Life is a paradox. Next fread plz.
Quote from: Suu on June 09, 2008, 10:01:40 PM
Life is a paradox. Next fread plz.
you mean this as the short version of why a definite proper ethics is impossible?
i'm inclined to agree,
but there's a LOT of very useful stuff to be learned by studying all the different roads philosophers went to discover this.
and because you cannot have the end-all "right" kind of ethics, it's especially helpful to learn about the pitfalls along the way (one or more of these pitfalls being what caused Regret's mistakes)
THATS WHY I SAY REGRET, WHY ARENT YOU LEARNING ABOUT ETHICS ALREADY!!! ;-)
Start with Satre's Being and Nothingness.
I am full of good advice.
Bump
oh, god...WHY?
:argh!:
Because I am a cruel and sadistic Goddess of Poor Decision Making.
:lulz:
Quote from: Cain on June 10, 2008, 08:09:25 AM
Start with Satre's Being and Nothingness.
I am full of good advice.
:mittens: :mittens: :mittens:
if i wasn't a tecknotard, i'd make this
post of the day
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 12:29:43 AM
How severe would the reason have to be to make the fact that you had a choice irrelevant?
Example: you're driving someone else's car and a milktruck is coming straight at you.
You decide to avoid the milktruck and drive straight into the river.
Result: Car ruined but you're still alive.
My opinion: its still your fault the car is ruined.
Bullshit. The fault is on the guy who caused the accident. In this case, the milk truck driver.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:16:04 AMdid i SAY the victim was responsible for getting raped? NO! i said she was responsible for actively 'cathing his eye' that is all.(hypothetical situation as i perceived it, i'm not saying its usually like that) Its not a bad thing she did that and i'm not saying she's responsible for anything that someone else chose to do. you do not chose to get raped so thats not the victims fault.
Have i made myself clear?
They're using a different definition of the word "responsible". Conflating the difference between "ought to" and "could have chosen to". Dunno if it's language or culture, but it's useless to argue that way.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 03:21:08 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 03:16:04 AM
did i SAY the victim was responsible for getting raped? NO! i said she was responsible for actively 'cathing his eye' that is all.
There is no fucking difference.
No difference between catching someone's eye and getting raped? Explain me how that works.
Urg. I didn't see the date on these posts. Thanks a lot for wasting my fucking time.
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 02:24:50 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 09, 2008, 02:03:18 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 09, 2008, 01:56:18 AM
of course you're not! the only thing you are responsible for is how you act and react.
So a rape victim is responsible for catching the rapist's eye?
yes, and the rapist is responsible for acting on his eye being caught.
and the victim is responsible for his or her level of resistance.
and the rapist is responsible for not killing himself.
So, does Regret still think being raped is the victim's fault for "catching the rapists eye"?
Quote from: Triple Zero on March 28, 2010, 02:52:57 PM
Urg. I didn't see the date on these posts. Thanks a lot for wasting my fucking time.
Yeah, I was pissed at first when I noticed "June 2008", but I'm all about dragging Regret around by his old arguments.