I attended a UU service today. It was by far the most welcoming congregation I have ever attended. It truly felt like a community with open minds who were working together to help each other and their world. I was myself welcomed just as much, with no expectations than that I am willing to listen.
Sitting here now, I'm thinking about what the Discordia movement is moving towards, or what I feel like its moving towards. We have so much in common with Unitarian Universalists fellowships here, we're open minded, creative people, and I think, really, we're pretty good people too. At least, that's the impression I get from many people here, that we're all around generally good people that want to help each other and the world. But, I also think our bitterness, and anger, while constructive on many occasions, have turned us pessimistic and apathetic. Its easy to look at the world and say "everyone is so stupid, I'm all alone here, I'm isolated in my open mindedness and willingness to create and educate". Its easy to think that way. And when we think that way, there's yet another sort of law of fives confirmation bias going on. When we think we are so isolated in our open mindedness and creativity in a mire of stupidity, we see signs of that isolation everywhere and we fail to see the open minded, creative and intelligent people who are all around us, either in hiding as we are, or they are simply blind to us. We become even more bitter and apathetic in that isolation.
When I think about the stoner irreligion Discordia of the '60s, I like everyone else here can think of so many things wrong with it. A short burst of creativity was quickly replaced with sameness, apathy, and lots of repetitive drug addled spoutings. However, there was so much good about it then. Discordians had this feeling of "sacred nonsense", this spontaneous creative force of weirdness, of different-ness. It could shake people up, it could open their minds and make them laugh. "Bullshit makes the flowers grow, and that's beautiful." This idea of the worthiness of satire, of creative humor and spontaneous weirdness was good. It was irreverent, but that sort of irreverence is needed many times. The holy clown is such a wonderful avatar, because joy and sadness link us to our most base inner feelings about truth and reality. "If it makes you laugh, its true; if it makes you cry, its real." A joke is something that everyone needs.
But we hate that holy clown now; its become for so many of us an object of scorn and disdain, because we are bitter and apathetic in our isolation. Sacred nonsense, its been done, its all the same! Who would care anyway, what with all these stupid people, why would they appreciate it?
They're not all stupid, you know. In fact, there are more intelligent, creative people out there than you realize. Some of them even create communities together. Many are stuck just as we are. Many more have just a spot of dust on the mirror, to borrow a metaphor. I'm tired of my bitter apathy and anger and feelings of isolation. Maybe I'm going soft. I'm sitting here in tears thinking how wonderful it was to be part of a community. This mono no aware moment relates my inner feelings about truth and reality, cause just like everyone I want to be part of something. Maybe I'm a bad Discordian, a grey, a pink, or whatever black sheep that are still sheep are being called these days. I don't care about that.
So, I'm going back next week. And this summer, I'm gonna start putting stickers all over campus. I'll be bringing friends.
:mittens:
Quote from: Kai on April 05, 2009, 10:22:50 PM
But we hate that holy clown now; its become for so many of us an object of scorn and disdain, because we are bitter and apathetic in our isolation. Sacred nonsense, its been done, its all the same! Who would care anyway, what with all these stupid people, why would they appreciate it?
I may be bitter, but I am not apathetic.
Quote from: Kai on April 05, 2009, 10:22:50 PM
I attended a UU service today. It was by far the most welcoming congregation I have ever attended. It truly felt like a community with open minds who were working together to help each other and their world. I was myself welcomed just as much, with no expectations than that I am willing to listen.
Sitting here now, I'm thinking about what the Discordia movement is moving towards, or what I feel like its moving towards. We have so much in common with Unitarian Universalists fellowships here, we're open minded, creative people, and I think, really, we're pretty good people too. At least, that's the impression I get from many people here, that we're all around generally good people that want to help each other and the world. But, I also think our bitterness, and anger, while constructive on many occasions, have turned us pessimistic and apathetic. Its easy to look at the world and say "everyone is so stupid, I'm all alone here, I'm isolated in my open mindedness and willingness to create and educate". Its easy to think that way. And when we think that way, there's yet another sort of law of fives confirmation bias going on. When we think we are so isolated in our open mindedness and creativity in a mire of stupidity, we see signs of that isolation everywhere and we fail to see the open minded, creative and intelligent people who are all around us, either in hiding as we are, or they are simply blind to us. We become even more bitter and apathetic in that isolation.
When I think about the stoner irreligion Discordia of the '60s, I like everyone else here can think of so many things wrong with it. A short burst of creativity was quickly replaced with sameness, apathy, and lots of repetitive drug addled spoutings. However, there was so much good about it then. Discordians had this feeling of "sacred nonsense", this spontaneous creative force of weirdness, of different-ness. It could shake people up, it could open their minds and make them laugh. "Bullshit makes the flowers grow, and that's beautiful." This idea of the worthiness of satire, of creative humor and spontaneous weirdness was good. It was irreverent, but that sort of irreverence is needed many times. The holy clown is such a wonderful avatar, because joy and sadness link us to our most base inner feelings about truth and reality. "If it makes you laugh, its true; if it makes you cry, its real." A joke is something that everyone needs.
But we hate that holy clown now; its become for so many of us an object of scorn and disdain, because we are bitter and apathetic in our isolation. Sacred nonsense, its been done, its all the same! Who would care anyway, what with all these stupid people, why would they appreciate it?
They're not all stupid, you know. In fact, there are more intelligent, creative people out there than you realize. Some of them even create communities together. Many are stuck just as we are. Many more have just a spot of dust on the mirror, to borrow a metaphor. I'm tired of my bitter apathy and anger and feelings of isolation. Maybe I'm going soft. I'm sitting here in tears thinking how wonderful it was to be part of a community. This mono no aware moment relates my inner feelings about truth and reality, cause just like everyone I want to be part of something. Maybe I'm a bad Discordian, a grey, a pink, or whatever black sheep that are still sheep are being called these days. I don't care about that.
So, I'm going back next week. And this summer, I'm gonna start putting stickers all over campus. I'll be bringing friends.
You are a pope, do as you will.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 05, 2009, 11:13:43 PM
Quote from: Kai on April 05, 2009, 10:22:50 PM
But we hate that holy clown now; its become for so many of us an object of scorn and disdain, because we are bitter and apathetic in our isolation. Sacred nonsense, its been done, its all the same! Who would care anyway, what with all these stupid people, why would they appreciate it?
I may be bitter, but I am not apathetic.
Okay.
If you aren't apathetic, then I didn't have you in mind when I used the word.
Quote from: Aufenthatt on April 05, 2009, 11:20:19 PM
You are a pope, do as you will.
I plan on it.
Hope you do too.
Quote from: Kai on April 05, 2009, 11:45:47 PM
Quote from: Aufenthatt on April 05, 2009, 11:20:19 PM
You are a pope, do as you will.
I plan on it.
Hope you do too.
I think its time for a new set of symbols and a new name.
Good stuff Kai!
As a UU and a Discordian, I've found that the two mesh quite nicely - glad to hear you found it a welcoming environment! UU congregations are good for finding people of like-mind, especially in the youth groups. Every spag from here I've had the pleasure of meeting has reminded me of the people I knew growing up in the UU youth program (in a good way :mrgreen:), and the same kind of approach (TFY,S!) is definitely at the heart of both theologies/philosophies.
Hope it bears fruit Kai :D
Quote from: That One Guy on April 06, 2009, 07:34:57 PM
Good stuff Kai!
As a UU and a Discordian, I've found that the two mesh quite nicely - glad to hear you found it a welcoming environment! UU congregations are good for finding people of like-mind, especially in the youth groups. Every spag from here I've had the pleasure of meeting has reminded me of the people I knew growing up in the UU youth program (in a good way :mrgreen:), and the same kind of approach (TFY,S!) is definitely at the heart of both theologies/philosophies.
Hope it bears fruit Kai :D
Yeah, it seems like they mix just great. While UUs have the creative order of a more structure yet open minded community, discordians have the creative disorder of a nonstructured, spontaneous society. They compliment each other in creativity.
Quote from: Kai on April 06, 2009, 11:36:06 PM
Quote from: That One Guy on April 06, 2009, 07:34:57 PM
Good stuff Kai!
As a UU and a Discordian, I've found that the two mesh quite nicely - glad to hear you found it a welcoming environment! UU congregations are good for finding people of like-mind, especially in the youth groups. Every spag from here I've had the pleasure of meeting has reminded me of the people I knew growing up in the UU youth program (in a good way :mrgreen:), and the same kind of approach (TFY,S!) is definitely at the heart of both theologies/philosophies.
Hope it bears fruit Kai :D
Yeah, it seems like they mix just great. While UUs have the creative order of a more structure yet open minded community, discordians have the creative disorder of a nonstructured, spontaneous society. They compliment each other in creativity.
I just like to poop on stuff. :)
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 06, 2009, 11:42:49 PM
Quote from: Kai on April 06, 2009, 11:36:06 PM
Quote from: That One Guy on April 06, 2009, 07:34:57 PM
Good stuff Kai!
As a UU and a Discordian, I've found that the two mesh quite nicely - glad to hear you found it a welcoming environment! UU congregations are good for finding people of like-mind, especially in the youth groups. Every spag from here I've had the pleasure of meeting has reminded me of the people I knew growing up in the UU youth program (in a good way :mrgreen:), and the same kind of approach (TFY,S!) is definitely at the heart of both theologies/philosophies.
Hope it bears fruit Kai :D
Yeah, it seems like they mix just great. While UUs have the creative order of a more structure yet open minded community, discordians have the creative disorder of a nonstructured, spontaneous society. They compliment each other in creativity.
I just like to poop on stuff. :)
You're definitely the most bitter person I know, I mean, if ANYone can take the cake for bitterness, its you. :)
:mittens: for OP. I'd provide comments, but I am exhausted.
I dig, I'm smiling now.
:boot:
(just imagine that's a happy worm rollin' around in a boot instead of what it actually is)
I'd rather be with people who are grinning than people who are surly and spend their time kicking other people.
On L.D.D.'s point: "Hope is the last thing a person does before they are defeated." --Henry Rollins
Quote from: L.D.D. Szarowka on April 14, 2009, 03:48:39 AM
its just really hard to see the way the world is going, and how it is directed, and not be bitter nor angry at the fact of being helpless of modifying it, at least in an important way...
Hey!
What the fuck is wrong with bitterness and anger?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 14, 2009, 04:44:11 AM
Hey!
What the fuck is wrong with bitterness and anger?
.
Perhaps it eventually becomes a dehumanizing thing to pursue.
That's my feeling at least.
Quote from: Batty Kissinger on April 14, 2009, 04:49:16 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 14, 2009, 04:44:11 AM
Hey!
What the fuck is wrong with bitterness and anger?
.
Perhaps it eventually becomes a dehumanizing thing to pursue.
That's my feeling at least.
Good. I fucking hate humans. :argh!:
Quote from: L.D.D. Szarowka on April 14, 2009, 05:23:02 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 14, 2009, 04:44:11 AM
Hey!
What the fuck is wrong with bitterness and anger?
its wrong because its merely reactionary - one should try to be happy, even if one is surrounded by crap - mind you, im not saying to ignore how so many things are wrong, just to get over yourself...
i myself am bitter and angry to a certain extent, but its not something that should be idealized
But I'm not happy unless I'm pissed off. Are you trying to keep me
miserable by convincing me to be all smiley and happy all the fucking time, when I'm not? Should I be JOYFUL because I'm stuck on a planet full of fucking PRIMATES? Goddammit, the thought alone makes me want to feed orphans into a chipper.
WHY YES, MY GOOD MAN, I'M JUST FUCKING THRILLED TO BE HERE! PLEASE SEND MORE STUPID HUMANS TO MAKE ME HAPPIER! MAYBE THEY CAN DO STUPID PRIMATE TRICKS FOR MY AMUSEMENT AND EDIFICATION!
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 14, 2009, 05:30:39 AM
Quote from: L.D.D. Szarowka on April 14, 2009, 05:23:02 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 14, 2009, 04:44:11 AM
Hey!
What the fuck is wrong with bitterness and anger?
its wrong because its merely reactionary - one should try to be happy, even if one is surrounded by crap - mind you, im not saying to ignore how so many things are wrong, just to get over yourself...
i myself am bitter and angry to a certain extent, but its not something that should be idealized
But I'm not happy unless I'm pissed off. Are you trying to keep me miserable by convincing me to be all smiley and happy all the fucking time, when I'm not? Should I be JOYFUL because I'm stuck on a planet full of fucking PRIMATES? Goddammit, the thought alone makes me want to feed orphans into a chipper.
WHY YES, MY GOOD MAN, I'M JUST FUCKING THRILLED TO BE HERE! PLEASE SEND MORE STUPID HUMANS TO MAKE ME HAPPIER! MAYBE THEY CAN DO STUPID PRIMATE TRICKS FOR MY AMUSEMENT AND EDIFICATION!
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
Yeah, we mostly just hate you.
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort." --Herm Albright
I think positivity is the true evil to be relished. To roll around in, like said primates.
Quote from: Batty Kissinger on April 14, 2009, 05:40:23 AM
Yeah, we mostly just hate you.
Figured as much. Hater.
Quote from: Batty Kissinger on April 14, 2009, 05:40:23 AM
"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort." --Herm Albright
I think positivity is the true evil to be relished. To roll around in, like said primates.
You might have a point...but I gotta be me.
Quote from: Batty Kissinger on April 14, 2009, 04:37:25 AMI'd rather be with people who are grinning than people who are surly and spend their time kicking other people.
Here, you get both. 8)
In reference to the last dozen posts or so:
:train:
Quote from: L.D.D. Szarowka on April 14, 2009, 05:57:30 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 14, 2009, 05:30:39 AM
But I'm not happy unless I'm pissed off. Are you trying to keep me miserable by convincing me to be all smiley and happy all the fucking time, when I'm not? Should I be JOYFUL because I'm stuck on a planet full of fucking PRIMATES? Goddammit, the thought alone makes me want to feed orphans into a chipper.
WHY YES, MY GOOD MAN, I'M JUST FUCKING THRILLED TO BE HERE! PLEASE SEND MORE STUPID HUMANS TO MAKE ME HAPPIER! MAYBE THEY CAN DO STUPID PRIMATE TRICKS FOR MY AMUSEMENT AND EDIFICATION!
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
maybe you just have issues, lol
never forget, you're a primate too
Are you familiar with the Church of the SubGenius?
QuoteWhen I think about the stoner irreligion Discordia of the '60s, I like everyone else here can think of so many things wrong with it. A short burst of creativity was quickly replaced with sameness, apathy, and lots of repetitive drug addled spoutings.
I don' think that's a very accurate summation of the Discordian views in the 60's. The sameness and apathy appear to have arisen with the Internet Discordian phenomena. From all the historical stuff I've read, the active Discordians of the 60's, 70's and 80's were anything but apathetic imitators. In fact, I'd met exactly one angry Discordian before I started hanging out here, plenty of Fnordlings, but the anger, pessimism and apathy seems (to me, based on my personal experience) somewhat more visible here than among many other Discordian groups I've poked at. Maybe they're just hiding it, or maybe they're optimists. I dunno.
Otherwise, that was a beautiful piece Kai! Whatever games you choose to play, I hope they bring you happiness :)
Wait, combine UU with discordianism?
Hmm....
"have blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend" + "Think for yourself/Question everything"
Oh yea, seems like a perfect match to me.
Sure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on, or did I miss a meeting at some point. These are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.
There are two main problems that each and every organized religion suffers from.
1) They are lead by humans/groups of humans, and humans are power hungry bastards from birth who will use/abuse whatever they get in search of more, even if they start out with good intentions and ideas.
2) The religion as an organism becomes more concerned with its own survival than the well being, liberties, interests, and happiness of the individual.
I'm not trying to say you can't be a member of a church and a discordian at the same time, but will you all please stop trying to tell me how church a or religion b mixes so well with it? It's like combining your bed and diarrhea... sure, you can do it, but it's not really somewhere you want to curl up and take a nice nap.
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 07:22:54 PM
Wait, combine UU with discordianism?
Hmm....
"have blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend" + "Think for yourself/Question everything"
Oh yea, seems like a perfect match to me.
Yeah, that blind faith is why my UU hymnals had the word "God" completely removed. Ever been to a UU service? :roll:
QuoteSure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on, or did I miss a meeting at some point. These are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.
There are two main problems that each and every organized religion suffers from.
1) They are lead by humans/groups of humans, and humans are power hungry bastards from birth who will use/abuse whatever they get in search of more, even if they start out with good intentions and ideas.
2) The religion as an organism becomes more concerned with its own survival than the well being, liberties, interests, and happiness of the individual.
I'm not trying to say you can't be a member of a church and a discordian at the same time, but will you all please stop trying to tell me how church a or religion b mixes so well with it? It's like combining your bed and diarrhea... sure, you can do it, but it's not really somewhere you want to curl up and take a nice nap.
It helps when you actually are familiar with the religion you're bashing. UU is not really similar to any other organized religion - it's based on the TFY,S principle in that you find what works for you and run with it. My minister when I was growing up was Jewish. We had a very active CUUPs segment (Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans), as well as a VERY large Secular Humanist faction.
Also, the closest we ever got to "prayer" was a moment of silence. So, if you're going to speak out your ass, at least do a LITTLE research first.
Quote from: That One Guy on April 14, 2009, 08:05:39 PM
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 07:22:54 PM
Wait, combine UU with discordianism?
Hmm....
"have blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend" + "Think for yourself/Question everything"
Oh yea, seems like a perfect match to me.
Yeah, that blind faith is why my UU hymnals had the word "God" completely removed. Ever been to a UU service? :roll:
QuoteSure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on, or did I miss a meeting at some point. These are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.
There are two main problems that each and every organized religion suffers from.
1) They are lead by humans/groups of humans, and humans are power hungry bastards from birth who will use/abuse whatever they get in search of more, even if they start out with good intentions and ideas.
2) The religion as an organism becomes more concerned with its own survival than the well being, liberties, interests, and happiness of the individual.
I'm not trying to say you can't be a member of a church and a discordian at the same time, but will you all please stop trying to tell me how church a or religion b mixes so well with it? It's like combining your bed and diarrhea... sure, you can do it, but it's not really somewhere you want to curl up and take a nice nap.
It helps when you actually are familiar with the religion you're bashing. UU is not really similar to any other organized religion - it's based on the TFY,S principle in that you find what works for you and run with it. My minister when I was growing up was Jewish. We had a very active CUUPs segment (Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans), as well as a VERY large Secular Humanist faction.
Also, the closest we ever got to "prayer" was a moment of silence. So, if you're going to speak out your ass, at least do a LITTLE research first.
THIS is the correct universal motorcycle. UU eschews dogma in favor of discussion and doctrine in favor of decency. While I don't personally find it fulfilling (25 years of church was far too much), it most certainly doesn't deserve to be lumped in with the general malaise of religions in the wild today. It's more like a community support group that accepts 'spirituality' as OK, however people define it.
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 07:22:54 PM
Sure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU
Pretty sure it was evident in my post that I was admitting that I didn't know much about UU. Everything I've found online so far about it stresses the ties to a jewish/christian origin, which will lead pretty much everyone to believe that it has at least some tie with the main belief they have... the belief in god. Actually, considering that is
The core belief in those religions, you kind of actually have to have a belief in god to have a tie to them.
Just because you guys don't have a "let's all talk to our imaginary friend" moment doesn't mean that it's still not the focus either... although I don't remember having ever mentioned anything at all about prayer, since it's not required for you to talk to a god just because you believe in it.
Being based on a "that's fine for you" principal doesn't free an organization from falling into the two main trappings either.... the thing is, those two are actually a part of any large organization, not just religions. The main difference between a religion falling victim to them and, say, GM is that you don't live your life and base your spiritual faith around what a car company says (or at least I really fucking hope not).
And if you're getting all worked up over me talking bad about your religion, then you've obviously fallen way too deep into it and are no longer looking objectively/humorously at things. Pull your head out of it's ass for a few minutes and remember to question your own beliefs.
Here's the sum total of UU dogma:
QuoteThere are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:
* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
That's it. See anything about God? Prayer? Dogma?
I'll be the first to admit UU suffers from the usual organizational pitfalls, if not more than most - a committee system will do that to you every time, and UU is nothing if not a committee system from an organizational standpoint, subject to all the usual annoyances and pitfalls of any committee system. It's why I don't bother going to UU churches, and haven't been to one since I was 18, way back in 1994. I kept the useful bits (the 7 points outlined above) and ditched the obnoxious organizational committee crap.
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 08:18:00 PM
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 07:22:54 PM
And if you're getting all worked up over me talking bad about your religion, then you've obviously fallen way too deep into it and are no longer looking objectively/humorously at things. Pull your head out of it's ass for a few minutes and remember to question your own beliefs.
I'm getting worked up because you're not even close to accurate in your statements about UU. I might have taken a harsh tone, but when someone misses the mark that badly, it's hard to take it as other than accusations made in willful ignorance (especially when you admit you're probably talking out your ass). Amazingly, and this is especially true for those raised UU such as myself, being lumped in with the "organized" religions is a guaranteed way to raise the hackles. Congrats on that.
Check out the main UU site - read a bit from the people actually doing it.
http://www.uua.org/index.shtml
I'll be the first to admit I have my own beliefs and opinions, but they're not set in stone and I take accusations that they are less than lightly. If you can point out where I've not "questioned my own beliefs" rather than pointed out how spectacularly wrong you are about UU, show me and I'll be happy to admit it.
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 08:18:00 PM
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 07:22:54 PM
Sure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU
Pretty sure it was evident in my post that I was admitting that I didn't know much about UU. Everything I've found online so far about it stresses the ties to a jewish/christian origin, which will lead pretty much everyone to believe that it has at least some tie with the main belief they have... the belief in god. Actually, considering that is The core belief in those religions, you kind of actually have to have a belief in god to have a tie to them.
Just because you guys don't have a "let's all talk to our imaginary friend" moment doesn't mean that it's still not the focus either... although I don't remember having ever mentioned anything at all about prayer, since it's not required for you to talk to a god just because you believe in it.
Being based on a "that's fine for you" principal doesn't free an organization from falling into the two main trappings either.... the thing is, those two are actually a part of any large organization, not just religions. The main difference between a religion falling victim to them and, say, GM is that you don't live your life and base your spiritual faith around what a car company says (or at least I really fucking hope not).
And if you're getting all worked up over me talking bad about your religion, then you've obviously fallen way too deep into it and are no longer looking objectively/humorously at things. Pull your head out of it's ass for a few minutes and remember to question your own beliefs.
QuoteThe Cosmic Schmuck Principle holds that if you don't wake up, once a month at least, and realize that you have been acting like a Cosmic Schmuck again then you will probably go on acting like a cosmic schmuck forever; but if you do, occasionally, recognize your Cosmic Schmuckiness, then you might begin to become a little less Schmucky that the general human average at this primitive stage of terrestrial evolution.
Just sayin'.....
Quote from: That One Guy on April 14, 2009, 08:34:05 PM
Here's the sum total of UU dogma:
QuoteThere are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:
* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
That's it. See anything about God? Prayer? Dogma?
No, I see seven principals that are almost exactly the same thing that every other organized religion tries to claim it sticks to, even if that claim doesn't really mesh up with reality. Sure, it doesn't mention god, but why does their own website talk up judeo-christian roots if it doesn't share their main belief? Fine, doesn't say anything about prayer... neither do the 10 commandments, since it's possible for something to be included as part of a religion but not actually on an itemized list of it's basic core beliefs. Ok, no dogma there except that you called it their dogma, but once again, a bullet list of core beliefs a religion holds doesn't always include any/all of that religion's dogma, or do you think such a list of judaism is going to list cutting a baby boy's dick?
Quote from: That One Guy on April 14, 2009, 08:34:05 PM
I'll be the first to admit UU suffers from the usual organizational pitfalls, if not more than most - a committee system will do that to you every time, and UU is nothing if not a committee system from an organizational standpoint, subject to all the usual annoyances and pitfalls of any committee system. It's why I don't bother going to UU churches, and haven't been to one since I was 18, way back in 1994. I kept the useful bits (the 7 points outlined above) and ditched the obnoxious organizational committee crap.
So you admit that you've gotten fed up with some of the crap that makes up the church, and as such have distanced yourself from it while keeping just its core values and principals, yet still say that the church isn't bad and has nothing in common with the irritants that plague others.... seems like you're either arguing against yourself or saying one thing while practicing another.
Quote from: That One Guy on April 14, 2009, 08:34:05 PM
I'm getting worked up because you're not even close to accurate in your statements about UU. I might have taken a harsh tone, but when someone misses the mark that badly, it's hard to take it as other than accusations made in willful ignorance (especially when you admit you're probably talking out your ass). Amazingly, and this is especially true for those raised UU such as myself, being lumped in with the "organized" religions is a guaranteed way to raise the hackles. Congrats on that.
Wait, so you say it is your religion, that it is an organization which suffers all the pitfalls or other organizations, that it has seven main principals which are actually pretty close to the principals of many other religions, yet it's not fair for me to put it in a grouping with the other main organized religions of the world? This is the exact same thing all other members of organized religions spout when they say "My religion has it right and is different from the others".
Quote from: That One Guy on April 14, 2009, 08:34:05 PM
I'll be the first to admit I have my own beliefs and opinions, but they're not set in stone and I take accusations that they are less than lightly. If you can point out where I've not "questioned my own beliefs" rather than pointed out how spectacularly wrong you are about UU, show me and I'll be happy to admit it.
How about the fact that I've been talking about not just your religion which you jumped in to defend, but about organized religions in general and how the blind acceptance they require for continued belief in them is a contradiction to the principal of questioning everything. I never once tried to say that your beliefs are set in stone and can't change, but unless you constantly try to pick them apart and re-evaluate them, they are going to stay the same. This response of yours where you instantly jump in to respond in a heated manner over a perceived slight against your religion is actually the blind acceptance of it that I'm arguing against... or in other words, you're proving my point for me. While Ratatosk's response was focused around places where I might have misconceptions regarding UU and attempting to correct them, your first post was more of a kneejerk reaction lacking in substance but filled with attempts at insults. If you do question your beliefs, you wouldn't be as quick to respond angrily to someone talking bad about them while admitting that they are not all that familiar with them and instead would take the opportunity to try to explain, possibly gaining a deeper understanding yourself.
I can only assume you're trolling me, now. If you're not, sorry. However, I have other things to do and have no desire to continue this.
Actually wasn't trolling you. You've been making contradictory statements, insulting me, and using kneejerk reactions instead of actually trying to explain or clarify your points when I try to defend my statements. I'm looking to have a discussion, but you instead seem intent on not even trying to discuss/refute points I bring up. If you were looking to show or convince me that you do still analyze and question your belief set, you're going about it the exact wrong way.
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 09:35:52 PM
Actually wasn't trolling you. You've been making contradictory statements, insulting me, and using kneejerk reactions instead of actually trying to explain or clarify your points when I try to defend my statements. I'm looking to have a discussion, but you instead seem intent on not even trying to discuss/refute points I bring up. If you were looking to show or convince me that you do still analyze and question your belief set, you're going about it the exact wrong way.
But you're discussing something that you are admittedly ignorant of, why should anyone bother to try to communicate thoughtfully? You've made a number of statements that simply aren't true and some generalizations that don't fit with any known experiences I've had or heard of with UU groups. Many members of UU are Atheists, others agnostics, some Buddhists, Pagans, spiritualists, nominal christians, etc etc etc
Go educate yourself and maybe then people will feel its worth their time to discuss your 'points'.
personally thwack, I think you're on the wrong side of the fence here. To me, it reads like this fictional sarcastic parody:
Poster 1: Discordians are internet trolls
Poster 2: actually, I'm a Discordian, and speaking as a mother, that's not true.
Poster 1: You're being closedminded. Think for yourself, shmuck!
Poster 2: :? but check out the Principia, it doesn't even mention internet trolling!
Poster 1: So? The ten commandments don't mention cutting off boys genitals, but j00s do it anyway, because they're sheep, like you
Poster 2: :?
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 14, 2009, 09:42:02 PM
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 09:35:52 PM
Actually wasn't trolling you. You've been making contradictory statements, insulting me, and using kneejerk reactions instead of actually trying to explain or clarify your points when I try to defend my statements. I'm looking to have a discussion, but you instead seem intent on not even trying to discuss/refute points I bring up. If you were looking to show or convince me that you do still analyze and question your belief set, you're going about it the exact wrong way.
But you're discussing something that you are admittedly ignorant of, why should anyone bother to try to communicate thoughtfully? You've made a number of statements that simply aren't true and some generalizations that don't fit with any known experiences I've had or heard of with UU groups. Many members of UU are Atheists, others agnostics, some Buddhists, Pagans, spiritualists, nominal christians, etc etc etc
Go educate yourself and maybe then people will feel its worth their time to discuss your 'points'.
So you're saying that it follows and suffers from none of the trappings that other organized religions do? You're saying That One Guy wasn't acing more like someone pissed over the fact that someone wasn't sharing his view of his religion, but more like someone willing to discuss how another was wrong in their understanding of his beliefs?
What I was saying is that there are certain problems that are inherent in organized religion in general. I admitted that I'm not an expert on UU, but from reading what they have on their site about their belief, operation, and formation, that they are going to fall into many of these too. Considering that the part of what I was saying that That One Guy seemed to have an issue with is my suggestion that UU believes in a god and that he doesn't actually question his own beliefs, but agreed that UU falls victim to the two things I listed as the main problems with organized religion leads me to believe that he's just trying to distance his viewset from that of other main churches in the world.
Was I wrong about some things I said? Yes, yes I was. But not once did someone say "here is where you are wrong, and here is the way things really are on this point". Sure, they don't follow one set of beliefs, and in a way it's actually wrong to try to call it a religion or a church... it's more like a clubhouse for people who agree that the underlying fundamentals for most world religions are a good idea and it would be nice if people would actually follow them, so let's get together and talk about how it's nice to have a belief set of some sorts.
And no, I'm not just ignorantly spouting bullshit. I've been sitting here the whole time reading the bylaws and rules that UU follows. Sure, I still don't have the worlds best grasp on it's current operation from a church service point of view, but I do know its origins and the way it operations from an organizational standpoint.
Quote from: Crampulus on April 14, 2009, 09:42:17 PM
personally thwack, I think you're on the wrong side of the fence here. To me, it reads like this fictional sarcastic parody:
Poster 1: Discordians are internet trolls
Poster 2: actually, I'm a Discordian, and speaking as a mother, that's not true.
Poster 1: You're being closedminded. Think for yourself, shmuck!
Poster 2: :? but check out the Principia, it doesn't even mention internet trolling!
Poster 1: So? The ten commandments don't mention cutting off boys genitals, but j00s do it anyway, because they're sheep, like you
Poster 2: :?
:lulz:
Quote from: Crampulus on April 14, 2009, 09:42:17 PM
personally thwack, I think you're on the wrong side of the fence here. To me, it reads like this fictional sarcastic parody:
Poster 1: Discordians are internet trolls
Poster 2: actually, I'm a Discordian, and speaking as a mother, that's not true.
Poster 1: You're being closedminded. Think for yourself, shmuck!
Poster 2: :? but check out the Principia, it doesn't even mention internet trolling!
Poster 1: So? The ten commandments don't mention cutting off boys genitals, but j00s do it anyway, because they're sheep, like you
Poster 2: :?
Almost perfect, just needs more cowbell. :lol:
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 10:07:44 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 14, 2009, 09:42:02 PM
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 09:35:52 PM
Actually wasn't trolling you. You've been making contradictory statements, insulting me, and using kneejerk reactions instead of actually trying to explain or clarify your points when I try to defend my statements. I'm looking to have a discussion, but you instead seem intent on not even trying to discuss/refute points I bring up. If you were looking to show or convince me that you do still analyze and question your belief set, you're going about it the exact wrong way.
But you're discussing something that you are admittedly ignorant of, why should anyone bother to try to communicate thoughtfully? You've made a number of statements that simply aren't true and some generalizations that don't fit with any known experiences I've had or heard of with UU groups. Many members of UU are Atheists, others agnostics, some Buddhists, Pagans, spiritualists, nominal christians, etc etc etc
Go educate yourself and maybe then people will feel its worth their time to discuss your 'points'.
So you're saying that it follows and suffers from none of the trappings that other organized religions do? You're saying That One Guy wasn't acing more like someone pissed over the fact that someone wasn't sharing his view of his religion, but more like someone willing to discuss how another was wrong in their understanding of his beliefs?
What I was saying is that there are certain problems that are inherent in organized religion in general. I admitted that I'm not an expert on UU, but from reading what they have on their site about their belief, operation, and formation, that they are going to fall into many of these too. Considering that the part of what I was saying that That One Guy seemed to have an issue with is my suggestion that UU believes in a god and that he doesn't actually question his own beliefs, but agreed that UU falls victim to the two things I listed as the main problems with organized religion leads me to believe that he's just trying to distance his viewset from that of other main churches in the world.
Was I wrong about some things I said? Yes, yes I was. But not once did someone say "here is where you are wrong, and here is the way things really are on this point". Sure, they don't follow one set of beliefs, and in a way it's actually wrong to try to call it a religion or a church... it's more like a clubhouse for people who agree that the underlying fundamentals for most world religions are a good idea and it would be nice if people would actually follow them, so let's get together and talk about how it's nice to have a belief set of some sorts.
And no, I'm not just ignorantly spouting bullshit. I've been sitting here the whole time reading the bylaws and rules that UU follows. Sure, I still don't have the worlds best grasp on it's current operation from a church service point of view, but I do know its origins and the way it operations from an organizational standpoint.
Well then do as you will, Rev. I'm just telling you how it appears from this side of the Intertubes... maybe you're right, or maybe you're being a schmuck, only you can know for sure.
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 14, 2009, 10:24:46 PM
Well then do as you will, Rev. I'm just telling you how it appears from this side of the Intertubes... maybe you're right, or maybe you're being a schmuck, only you can know for sure.
Then show me where I've messed up or gotten things wrong. If this truly is the one organized religion that meshes well because it lacks the trappings of organized religions then it would be nice to know, but from what I see it's really just more of an organization that falls for the two main problems I mentioned earlier while not being a real religion, but more of a support group for people who follow other religions but are frustrated with the organized side of them.
it might have been where you characterized UU as
Quote"blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend"
or your sweeping generalization that everything with Judeo-Christian roots
is Judeo-Christianity
or even that
all organized religions are bad
(which though it may be true much of the time, do you really think it could be true 100% of the time? If so, what does that say about your evaluation criteria?)
it could even be that you're responding to TOA as if he said that UU "follows and suffers from none of the trappings that other organized religions do". --Which I don't think he ever said, but you seem pretty hot on that issue
TOG said sure, UU has issues. And that he likes it anyway. It has
different issues than other religions.
And then you called him a hypocrite
but personally I think
you were the one missing the point.
Quote from: Crampulus on April 14, 2009, 10:39:34 PM
it might have been where you characterized UU as
Quote"blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend"
or your sweeping generalization that everything with Judeo-Christian roots is Judeo-Christianity
Doesn't have to be the judeo-christian god to still be a big imaginary friend. Any deity will do, and UU does seem to be a big collection of people who have different deities they believe in.
Quote
or even that all organized religions are bad
(which though it may be true much of the time, do you really think it could be true 100% of the time? If so, what does that say about your evaluation criteria?)
something can be bad in general without it being bad 100% of the time. Plus my argument isn't as much with general concepts provided but more with the implementations of those concepts.
Quote
it could even be that you're responding to TOA as if he said that UU "follows and suffers from none of the trappings that other organized religions do". --Which I don't think he ever said, but you seem pretty hot on that issue
actually, my issue isn't with that, but with how he characterized UU as a religion that meshes great with discordianism... something I don't agree with and I guess should better explain why.
Quote
TOG said sure, UU has issues. And that he likes it anyway. It has different issues than other religions.
Actually he didn't say that he likes it that way, but said that he left it 15 years ago because of those issues. He said he kept only the fundamental teachings it was founded on... fundamental teachings that are pretty much the fundamental teachings of most other major world religions.
Quote
And then you called him a hypocrite
Yes, but only after he asked me to point out where he was being one.
Quote
but personally I think you were the one missing the point.
Possibly. I apparently have been doing a bad job at trying to express my main point too, that organized religion and discordianism are not really a good mix.
Organized religion builds off of a belief in a higher power or force. The problem with this is the belief aspect, since this belief is built on faith in the existence of a higher/supreme power. This existence is something that can not be either proven or disproved, but instead must be accepted without accompanying evidence. Now sure, if you don't want to seriously believe in one of the two you can combine them, but belief based off of blind faith is something that doesn't mesh with discordianism.
QuoteWait, combine UU with discordianism?
Hmm....
"have blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend" + "Think for yourself/Question everything"
Oh yea, seems like a perfect match to me.
Schmuck Assumption #1
UU don't generally go for blind or unquestioning faith.
UU don't always think a big imaginary person exists.
QuoteSure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on
Schmuck Assumption #2
Not all Discordians agree that organized religion is a bad thing. There are Discordian Christians, Discordian Wiccans, Discordian Thelemics, Discordian Druids, Discordian Muslims and that's just Discordians that I've met.
QuoteThese are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.
This is nothing like any UU belief I've ever encountered. Therefore, I'm gonna consider it likely to be Schmuck Assumption #3.
I coould keep going but that's not useful. I hope these few examples show you exactly what I meant about assumptions that perhaps were due to the CS principle. But, perhaps you're one of the few who are never Cosmic Schmucks...
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 11:02:19 PM
actually, my issue isn't with that, but with how he characterized UU as a religion that meshes great with discordianism... something I don't agree with and I guess should better explain why.
Possibly. I apparently have been doing a bad job at trying to express my main point too, that organized religion and discordianism are not really a good mix.
Organized religion builds off of a belief in a higher power or force. The problem with this is the belief aspect, since this belief is built on faith in the existence of a higher/supreme power. This existence is something that can not be either proven or disproved, but instead must be accepted without accompanying evidence. Now sure, if you don't want to seriously believe in one of the two you can combine them, but belief based off of blind faith is something that doesn't mesh with discordianism.
Not strictly true in my opinion, its been said billions of times there is no "true" discordianism either way, but there does seem to be a lot of "faith" put in Eris, so faith in a higher power, the fact that it is a chaotic higher power isn't really important for the demonstration.
Second point, the Curse of Greyface, was as you undoubtably know, to place to high a value on order, thus causing both creative and destructive order to be visited on mankind. From my point of view it seems like you are focusing on disorder, and possibly falling into the same trap at the other end of the spectrum.
My view of discordianism (i have no view on UU) is that whether it is classed as a disorganised religion or not, is that it is focused on the individual i.e.
Discordianism is What Works For You.
just thoughts,
edd
I'd like to meet a Discordian Muslim. Especially an Is'maili. I have a proposition concerning the Aga Khan and the resumption of old traditions.
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 14, 2009, 11:13:37 PM
QuoteWait, combine UU with discordianism?
Hmm....
"have blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend" + "Think for yourself/Question everything"
Oh yea, seems like a perfect match to me.
Schmuck Assumption #1
UU don't generally go for blind or unquestioning faith.
UU don't always think a big imaginary person exists.
UU seems to be a collection of members of various other religions/faiths that gather together under a different name/church for various reasons (if I'm wrong here, then let me know what it is instead). Most world religions believe in the existence of either a all-powerful being(s) or something more of a unifying force, which is really mostly the same thing only with less personification and/or direct control(feel free to argue against that if you want, and if so feel free to provide example religions). UU appears to pull actively from this, as stated in their bylaws
Quote from: uua.org - http://www.uua.org/aboutus/bylaws/articleii/6906.shtml
The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:
* Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
* Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion and the transforming power of love;
* Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
* Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
* Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit;
* Spiritual teachings of Earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.
Since such a thing, by it's default nature, can neither be proven or disproved, and since no scientific evidence can be gathered to support its existance, it falls more into the blind faith category.
I'd be happy to debate this further if you like, but I hardly see how this falls into the Schmuck Assumption category.
Quote
QuoteSure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on
Schmuck Assumption #2
Not all Discordians agree that organized religion is a bad thing. There are Discordian Christians, Discordian Wiccans, Discordian Thelemics, Discordian Druids, Discordian Muslims and that's just Discordians that I've met.
True, it was a bit of a schmuck assumption to think that there was anything discordians can agree on. Of course, since you can find examples falling outside the norm for any group and behavior, I don't see how this invalidates the existence of at least a general disagreement between discordianism and organized religion. Beyond that point, just because someone identifies themselves as a member of a religion doesn't mean that person actually agrees with everything about it. I have met plenty of people over the years on and the board here even that will take a moniker associated with an organized religion due to believing in the underlying beliefs but at the same time will be disgusted with that religion as an organization and want nothing to do with it.
Quote
QuoteThese are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.
This is nothing like any UU belief I've ever encountered. Therefore, I'm gonna consider it likely to be Schmuck Assumption #3.
This is one that I'm not in a position to defend and I fully admit that I could have been out of line with. Since I have never attended a UU service, I can't know what tactics they try to employ, therefore have no idea if they do go for the good afterlife/bad afterlife way of trying to influence belief that many religions are so fond of. I admit that I pulled a schmuck assumption here due to the UU website touting it's origins while leaving most information regarding its current beliefs outside of the 7 main bullets buried deeper in the site. I would like to think of this as an honest mistake due to being mislead by the UU site, but I'm not going to try to fight for that.
Quote
I coould keep going but that's not useful. I hope these few examples show you exactly what I meant about assumptions that perhaps were due to the CS principle. But, perhaps you're one of the few who are never Cosmic Schmucks...
I wouldn't say never, as on a long enough timeline we all will take part in being one.
Quote from: L.D.D. Szarowka on April 14, 2009, 05:57:30 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 14, 2009, 05:30:39 AM
But I'm not happy unless I'm pissed off. Are you trying to keep me miserable by convincing me to be all smiley and happy all the fucking time, when I'm not? Should I be JOYFUL because I'm stuck on a planet full of fucking PRIMATES? Goddammit, the thought alone makes me want to feed orphans into a chipper.
WHY YES, MY GOOD MAN, I'M JUST FUCKING THRILLED TO BE HERE! PLEASE SEND MORE STUPID HUMANS TO MAKE ME HAPPIER! MAYBE THEY CAN DO STUPID PRIMATE TRICKS FOR MY AMUSEMENT AND EDIFICATION!
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
maybe you just have issues, lol
never forget, you're a primate too
Yeah, I'm working on that.
Quote from: L.D.D. Szarowka on April 15, 2009, 12:33:28 AM
Quote from: Cainad on April 14, 2009, 02:52:16 PM
Are you familiar with the Church of the SubGenius?
im not, you care to explain? - either way illsee what i can find
btw, im agnostic (leaning towards atheism), and even so im planning on attending some type of jewish church, just to see jewish girls (some variants i think are hot for some odd reason)...
Hehe. Heathen.
Go here:
http://subgenius.com
Quote from: L.D.D. Szarowka on April 15, 2009, 12:47:46 AM
arent yetis primates too?
i think i saw this quickly some time ago, i didnt remember the name do...
it seems a bit ethnocentric, but ill see thru it, im sure theres interesting stuff
A bit what? :lulz:
Rev. Thwack: As far as shared doctrine goes, UU's have the most benign. As far as doctrine in general, UU's have the least stiffling of any organized "religion".
At the fellowship I go to, there are people of every background and spirtuality, and generally warm and welcoming. The minister is an athiest, or so I'm told, but the only reason I know is because I asked. Stuff like that sits back seat to things like social action, sharing of celebrations and concerns, and generally just enjoying the company and community of other open minded, accepting and socially progressive people.
By the way, the hymnals don't have all of the old unitarian and universalist ways removed. On easter, we sang "Jesus Christ is Risen Today", which is a traditional easter hymn, and something I and any former christian would probably recognize. Some of the words were changed, but it was more or less intact. And you know what? I didn't feel the least bit self conscious about singing it either.
How many spritual communities do you know where people can be openly gay and welcomed, openly pagan and welcomed, a christian hymn is sung, a 60-70s protest song, a passover candle is lit, and the minister quotes the Mad Farmers Manifesto and "the map is not the territory", all in the same service? Oh, and I forgot to mention the laughing, the kids running around and taking open part in the proceedings, the open way that people speak their needs and wants and joys and sorrows
Yeah, thats pretty different than discordia; discordians just act like assholes to each other :P
Also, Szarowka, I LIKE Roger's angry bitterness. For him, its perfect. For me, not so much.
Quote from: Kai on April 15, 2009, 12:57:54 AM
Also, Szarowka, I LIKE Roger's angry bitterness. For him, its perfect. For me, not so much.
Oh, no, I'm supposed to be full of fucking sunshine and roses and pink unicorns and shit.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 15, 2009, 12:59:34 AM
Quote from: Kai on April 15, 2009, 12:57:54 AM
Also, Szarowka, I LIKE Roger's angry bitterness. For him, its perfect. For me, not so much.
Oh, no, I'm supposed to be full of fucking sunshine and roses and pink unicorns and shit.
And rainbows. And white fluffy clouds. And cute little baby animals.
AND BEAUTIFUL FAIRY PRINCESSES!!!!!
Quote from: L.D.D. Szarowka on April 15, 2009, 01:16:57 AM
ethnocentrism is like focusing too much on the culture of a single limited area, in this case USA
I know what the fuck it MEANS, you twit...what I want to know is...
WHAT THE FUCK AT THAT LINK SAID ANYTHING ABOUT AMERICA, WHATSOEVER?
:lulz:
Quote from: L.D.D. Szarowka on April 15, 2009, 01:29:28 AM
everything :kingmeh:
Fucking idiot. :lulz:
You didn't even look. You decided to try to sound smart, and you owned yourself.
Too fucking funny.
Quote from: L.D.D. Szarowka on April 15, 2009, 01:16:57 AM
ethnocentrism is like focusing too much on the culture of a single limited area, in this case USA
its interesting that mr. scientology supposedly sent in a check for $30 before he died, kind of disturbing that Pee Wee Herman is a minister... its interesting too that R.A.W. is a minister...
and Kai, thats fine with me - i just got here and im sorting the waters :wink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yavx9yxTrsw
I think you just lent us the solution to every debate. Thanks Kai.
Quote from: Batty Kissinger on April 15, 2009, 03:09:40 AM
I think you just lent us the solution to every debate. Thanks Kai.
Boxxy is my lullaby. :love:
Quote from: Kai on April 15, 2009, 03:12:58 AM
Quote from: Batty Kissinger on April 15, 2009, 03:09:40 AM
I think you just lent us the solution to every debate. Thanks Kai.
Boxxy is my lullaby. :love:
BOXXY IS MY MEDICINE!
Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And Summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And oft' is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd:
But thy eternal Summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:
So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives Boxxy, and Boxxy gives life to thee.
Quote from: Kai on April 15, 2009, 03:32:26 AM
Shall I compare thee to a Summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate:
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And Summer's lease hath all too short a date:
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And oft' is his gold complexion dimm'd;
And every fair from fair sometime declines,
By chance or nature's changing course untrimm'd:
But thy eternal Summer shall not fade
Nor lose possession of that fair thou owest;
Nor shall Death brag thou wanderest in his shade,
When in eternal lines to time thou growest:
So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see,
So long lives Boxxy, and Boxxy gives life to thee.
Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious video of forgotten lore,
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
"'Tis some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door-
Only this, and nothing more."
Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December,
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Eagerly I wished the morrow;- vainly I had sought to borrow
From my books surcease of sorrow- sorrow for the lost Boxxy-
For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Boxxy-
Nameless here for evermore.
And the silken sad uncertain rustling of each purple curtain
Thrilled me- filled me with fantastic terrors never felt before;
So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating,
"'Tis some visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door-
Some late visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door;-
This it is, and nothing more."
Presently my soul grew stronger; hesitating then no longer,
"Sir," said I, "or Madam, truly your forgiveness I implore;
But the fact is I was napping, and so gently you came rapping,
And so faintly you came tapping, tapping at my chamber door,
That I scarce was sure I heard you"- here I opened wide the door;-
Darkness there, and nothing more.
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering,
fearing,
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortals ever dared to dream before;
But the silence was unbroken, and the stillness gave no token,
And the only word there spoken was the whispered word, "Boxxy!"
This I whispered, and an echo murmured back the word, "Boxxy!"-
Merely this, and nothing more.
Back into the chamber turning, all my soul within me burning,
Soon again I heard a tapping somewhat louder than before.
"Surely," said I, "surely that is something at my window lattice:
Let me see, then, what thereat is, and this mystery explore-
Let my heart be still a moment and this mystery explore;-
'Tis the wind and nothing more."
Open here I flung the shutter, when, with many a flirt and
flutter,
In there stepped a stately raven of the saintly days of yore;
Not the least obeisance made he; not a minute stopped or stayed
he;
But, with mien of lord or lady, perched above my chamber door-
Perched upon a bust of Pallas just above my chamber door-
Perched, and sat, and nothing more.
Then this ebony bird beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
By the grave and stern decorum of the countenance it wore.
"Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou," I said, "art sure no
craven,
Ghastly grim and ancient raven wandering from the Nightly shore-
Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night's Plutonian shore!"
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore."
Much I marvelled this ungainly fowl to hear discourse so plainly,
Though its answer little meaning- little relevancy bore;
For we cannot help agreeing that no living human being
Ever yet was blest with seeing bird above his chamber door-
Bird or beast upon the sculptured bust above his chamber door,
With such name as "Nevermore."
But the raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only
That one word, as if his soul in that one word he did outpour.
Nothing further then he uttered- not a feather then he fluttered-
Till I scarcely more than muttered, "other friends have flown
before-
On the morrow he will leave me, as my hopes have flown before."
Then the bird said, "Nevermore."
Startled at the stillness broken by reply so aptly spoken,
"Doubtless," said I, "what it utters is its only stock and store,
Caught from some unhappy master whom unmerciful Disaster
Followed fast and followed faster till his songs one burden bore-
Till the dirges of his Hope that melancholy burden bore
Of 'Never- nevermore'."
But the Raven still beguiling all my fancy into smiling,
Straight I wheeled a cushioned seat in front of bird, and bust and
door;
Then upon the velvet sinking, I betook myself to linking
Fancy unto fancy, thinking what this ominous bird of yore-
What this grim, ungainly, ghastly, gaunt and ominous bird of yore
Meant in croaking "Nevermore."
This I sat engaged in guessing, but no syllable expressing
To the fowl whose fiery eyes now burned into my bosom's core;
This and more I sat divining, with my head at ease reclining
On the cushion's velvet lining that the lamplight gloated o'er,
But whose velvet violet lining with the lamplight gloating o'er,
She shall press, ah, nevermore!
Then methought the air grew denser, perfumed from an unseen censer
Swung by Seraphim whose footfalls tinkled on the tufted floor.
"Wretch," I cried, "thy God hath lent thee- by these angels he
hath sent thee
Respite- respite and nepenthe, from thy memories of Boxxy!
Quaff, oh quaff this kind nepenthe and forget this lost Boxxy!"
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore."
"Prophet!" said I, "thing of evil!- prophet still, if bird or
devil!-
Whether Tempter sent, or whether tempest tossed thee here ashore,
Desolate yet all undaunted, on this desert land enchanted-
On this home by horror haunted- tell me truly, I implore-
Is there- is there balm in Gilead?- tell me- tell me, I implore!"
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore."
"Prophet!" said I, "thing of evil- prophet still, if bird or
devil!
By that Heaven that bends above us- by that God we both adore-
Tell this soul with sorrow laden if, within the distant Aidenn,
It shall clasp a sainted maiden whom the angels name Boxxy-
Clasp a rare and radiant maiden whom the angels name Boxxy."
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore."
"Be that word our sign in parting, bird or fiend," I shrieked,
upstarting-
"Get thee back into the tempest and the Night's Plutonian shore!
Leave no black plume as a token of that lie thy soul hath spoken!
Leave my loneliness unbroken!- quit the bust above my door!
Take thy beak from out my heart, and take thy form from off my
door!"
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore."
And the Raven, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door;
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming,
And the lamplight o'er him streaming throws his shadow on the
floor;
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
Shall be lifted- nevermore!
I love you guys. You're my heroes.
*sighs*
I was having a shitty shitty SHITTY night. But the end of this thread is cool. Night.
Quote from: Cain on April 14, 2009, 11:21:09 PM
I'd like to meet a Discordian Muslim. Especially an Is'maili. I have a proposition concerning the Aga Khan and the resumption of old traditions.
Five bucks says that most Discordian Muslims are (would be) Sufis.
Quote from: LMNO on April 15, 2009, 01:17:00 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 14, 2009, 11:21:09 PM
I'd like to meet a Discordian Muslim. Especially an Is'maili. I have a proposition concerning the Aga Khan and the resumption of old traditions.
Five bucks says that most Discordian Muslims are (would be) Sufis.
Sufis suck.
ATTN SUFIS: YOU SUCK. START KILLING PEOPLE, LIKE THE IS'MAILIS, AND MAYBE MORE PEOPLE WILL PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR LITTLE POETRY AND DANCE SESSIONS. YEAH, I WENT THERE.
:jihaad:
(now picture them doing that in circles.)
:mittens:
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 08:18:00 PM
Pretty sure it was evident in my post that I was admitting that I didn't know much about UU.
... then maybe you should shut your ignorant yap and go do some basic research?
:mittens: for the OP
nice, Kai
z_m
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 11:39:20 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 14, 2009, 11:13:37 PM
QuoteWait, combine UU with discordianism?
Hmm....
"have blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend" + "Think for yourself/Question everything"
Oh yea, seems like a perfect match to me.
Schmuck Assumption #1
UU don't generally go for blind or unquestioning faith.
UU don't always think a big imaginary person exists.
UU seems to be a collection of members of various other religions/faiths that gather together under a different name/church for various reasons (if I'm wrong here, then let me know what it is instead). Most world religions believe in the existence of either a all-powerful being(s) or something more of a unifying force, which is really mostly the same thing only with less personification and/or direct control(feel free to argue against that if you want, and if so feel free to provide example religions). UU appears to pull actively from this, as stated in their bylaws
Quote from: uua.org - http://www.uua.org/aboutus/bylaws/articleii/6906.shtml
The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:
* Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
* Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion and the transforming power of love;
* Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
* Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
* Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit;
* Spiritual teachings of Earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.
Since such a thing, by it's default nature, can neither be proven or disproved, and since no scientific evidence can be gathered to support its existance, it falls more into the blind faith category.
I'd be happy to debate this further if you like, but I hardly see how this falls into the Schmuck Assumption category.
Ah, well then in that case I must be mistaken. You are apparently not a Cosmic Schmuck at all. Obviously your interpretation of a Webpage, rather than actual interaction with UU members is sufficient for you to pierce the veil and see the truth of the matter. It's good to know that this isn't simply your opinion based on a cursory glance at something you'd never looked at before.
Quote
Quote
QuoteSure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on
Schmuck Assumption #2
Not all Discordians agree that organized religion is a bad thing. There are Discordian Christians, Discordian Wiccans, Discordian Thelemics, Discordian Druids, Discordian Muslims and that's just Discordians that I've met.
True, it was a bit of a schmuck assumption to think that there was anything discordians can agree on. Of course, since you can find examples falling outside the norm for any group and behavior, I don't see how this invalidates the existence of at least a general disagreement between discordianism and organized religion. Beyond that point, just because someone identifies themselves as a member of a religion doesn't mean that person actually agrees with everything about it. I have met plenty of people over the years on and the board here even that will take a moniker associated with an organized religion due to believing in the underlying beliefs but at the same time will be disgusted with that religion as an organization and want nothing to do with it.
Ah, so your experience with some Discordians are enough to make intelligent assumptions about all Discordians, except for the few fringe idiots.... good to know you're not being a schmuck about this.
Quote
Quote
QuoteThese are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.
This is nothing like any UU belief I've ever encountered. Therefore, I'm gonna consider it likely to be Schmuck Assumption #3.
This is one that I'm not in a position to defend and I fully admit that I could have been out of line with. Since I have never attended a UU service, I can't know what tactics they try to employ, therefore have no idea if they do go for the good afterlife/bad afterlife way of trying to influence belief that many religions are so fond of. I admit that I pulled a schmuck assumption here due to the UU website touting it's origins while leaving most information regarding its current beliefs outside of the 7 main bullets buried deeper in the site. I would like to think of this as an honest mistake due to being mislead by the UU site, but I'm not going to try to fight for that.
Quote
I coould keep going but that's not useful. I hope these few examples show you exactly what I meant about assumptions that perhaps were due to the CS principle. But, perhaps you're one of the few who are never Cosmic Schmucks...
I wouldn't say never, as on a long enough timeline we all will take part in being one.
Indeed..... :kingmeh:
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 15, 2009, 07:01:36 PM
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 14, 2009, 11:39:20 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 14, 2009, 11:13:37 PM
QuoteWait, combine UU with discordianism?
Hmm....
"have blind, unquestioning faith in the existence of this big imaginary friend" + "Think for yourself/Question everything"
Oh yea, seems like a perfect match to me.
Schmuck Assumption #1
UU don't generally go for blind or unquestioning faith.
UU don't always think a big imaginary person exists.
UU seems to be a collection of members of various other religions/faiths that gather together under a different name/church for various reasons (if I'm wrong here, then let me know what it is instead). Most world religions believe in the existence of either a all-powerful being(s) or something more of a unifying force, which is really mostly the same thing only with less personification and/or direct control(feel free to argue against that if you want, and if so feel free to provide example religions). UU appears to pull actively from this, as stated in their bylaws
Quote from: uua.org - http://www.uua.org/aboutus/bylaws/articleii/6906.shtml
The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:
* Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
* Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion and the transforming power of love;
* Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
* Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
* Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit;
* Spiritual teachings of Earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.
Since such a thing, by it's default nature, can neither be proven or disproved, and since no scientific evidence can be gathered to support its existance, it falls more into the blind faith category.
I'd be happy to debate this further if you like, but I hardly see how this falls into the Schmuck Assumption category.
Ah, well then in that case I must be mistaken. You are apparently not a Cosmic Schmuck at all. Obviously your interpretation of a Webpage, rather than actual interaction with UU members is sufficient for you to pierce the veil and see the truth of the matter. It's good to know that this isn't simply your opinion based on a cursory glance at something you'd never looked at before.
So you're trying to say it's wrong to draw a conclusion about an organization based upon what it says about itself on its official web site, what it says in its founding documents, and what other people in this thread who are members of this organization have said about it? You know, if that's true in this case, then UU might want to do a better job trying to put true information out there regarding their beliefs and values. Could also be helpful if you decided to actually mention how/where I was wrong instead of just saying 'nope, try again schmuck'.
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteSure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on
Schmuck Assumption #2
Not all Discordians agree that organized religion is a bad thing. There are Discordian Christians, Discordian Wiccans, Discordian Thelemics, Discordian Druids, Discordian Muslims and that's just Discordians that I've met.
True, it was a bit of a schmuck assumption to think that there was anything discordians can agree on. Of course, since you can find examples falling outside the norm for any group and behavior, I don't see how this invalidates the existence of at least a general disagreement between discordianism and organized religion. Beyond that point, just because someone identifies themselves as a member of a religion doesn't mean that person actually agrees with everything about it. I have met plenty of people over the years on and the board here even that will take a moniker associated with an organized religion due to believing in the underlying beliefs but at the same time will be disgusted with that religion as an organization and want nothing to do with it.
Ah, so your experience with some Discordians are enough to make intelligent assumptions about all Discordians, except for the few fringe idiots.... good to know you're not being a schmuck about this.
And your experience with some is a better ground to make intelligent assumptions to the contrary?
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteThese are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.
This is nothing like any UU belief I've ever encountered. Therefore, I'm gonna consider it likely to be Schmuck Assumption #3.
This is one that I'm not in a position to defend and I fully admit that I could have been out of line with. Since I have never attended a UU service, I can't know what tactics they try to employ, therefore have no idea if they do go for the good afterlife/bad afterlife way of trying to influence belief that many religions are so fond of. I admit that I pulled a schmuck assumption here due to the UU website touting it's origins while leaving most information regarding its current beliefs outside of the 7 main bullets buried deeper in the site. I would like to think of this as an honest mistake due to being mislead by the UU site, but I'm not going to try to fight for that.
Quote
I coould keep going but that's not useful. I hope these few examples show you exactly what I meant about assumptions that perhaps were due to the CS principle. But, perhaps you're one of the few who are never Cosmic Schmucks...
I wouldn't say never, as on a long enough timeline we all will take part in being one.
Indeed..... :kingmeh:
So tell me, considering that I've actually been finding supporting information, clarifying my arguments and standings, and addressing (the few) points brought up by people arguing against my statements, are you really going to be egotistical enough to try and say I'm the only one being a cosmic schmuck in this thread?
If someone has an issue with the accuracy of something I've brought up in this thread, I'd really like to hear it. And no, I don't just mean the "you're wrong, schmuck" and "go fuck yourself" type responses I've been getting, but something that will actually bring some sort of evidence to a specific point I'm wrong about. Just telling someone they are wrong on something without actually doing anything to prove it isn't helpful when they are trying to gain a deeper understanding on a subject, which I wanted to do when this all first started. Right now it's just starting to seem that UU members can't take any kind of jab/criticism of the church and can't be bothered to actually let people know what the hell it's about when they've got the wrong idea.
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 15, 2009, 10:38:59 PM
If someone has an issue with the accuracy of something I've brought up in this thread, I'd really like to hear it. And no, I don't just mean the "you're wrong, schmuck" and "go fuck yourself" type responses I've been getting, but something that will actually bring some sort of evidence to a specific point I'm wrong about.
are we reading the same thread? people have been discussing and explaining what you're wrong about. Nobody's said "fuck you", though they have suggested that you're asking questions out of ignorance and ignoring the answers you don't like. I guess you're taking Ratatosk's Cosmic Shmuck comment as an insult, so you clearly missed the point of it. I thought he pointed out pretty clearly where your misaligned assumptions were.
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 15, 2009, 10:38:59 PM
Right now it's just starting to seem that UU members can't take any kind of jab/criticism of the church and can't be bothered to actually let people know what the hell it's about when they've got the wrong idea.
maybe it seems that way to you. I think a few people, including a few UUs, have explained stuff fairly clearly. But you have an agenda, something about proving a point regarding all organized religions, so you're only hearing what you want to hear.
Earlier in this thread, you said you know very little about UU, and clearly you've only done the slightest bit of web research. That seems like an odd footing on which to refute
actual Unitarians about what UU is about. You can't believe everything you read on the net, man. Sometimes it helps to talk to an actual member.
You're really sounding more and more like this guy, who honestly isn't worth talking to:
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/bin/Imanatheistdebateme.jpg)
Yeh I was gonna say, the facts are all there.
Though this really seems to have come down to a differing of opinions more than anything else something along the lines of of:
Person 1: "I don't like organised religion, and can't see it working with my brand of discordianism"
Person 2: "I'm a UU member, I enjoy being part of that church for [insert reasons here], I feel it works well with my interpretation of dicordiansim"
Person 1: "I still dislike organised religions, and am having difficulty accepting your personal beliefs"
How is this constructive?
Edd
Quote from: Rev Thwack on April 15, 2009, 10:38:59 PM
So you're trying to say it's wrong to draw a conclusion about an organization based upon what it says about itself on its official web site, what it says in its founding documents, and what other people in this thread who are members of this organization have said about it?
Generally, I think a conclusion is probably a bad idea, no matter what you're basing it on.
Quote
You know, if that's true in this case, then UU might want to do a better job trying to put true information out there regarding their beliefs and values. Could also be helpful if you decided to actually mention how/where I was wrong instead of just saying 'nope, try again schmuck'.
What does their website have to do with you making assumptions? As to where you were wrong, I think we've been through this... you're first statement was wrong, entirely. MOst UU do not have blind faith in any particular belief system, though some may hold a belief system. Some UU do not believe in a Big Imaginary Friend, indeed, some UU are atheists.
So then, you made assumptions, based on... well I don't know where those assumptions came from, but I'm gonna guess "your ass". This, in short, is the whole point of the Cosmic Schmuck principle. We are ALL Cosmic Schmucks, we all jump to conclusions, make assumptions and generally confuse what we think and what we know.
From my perspective, you seem to have begun by making extremely broad assumptions and then defended those with quick web surfing... and then you seem to believe that you know as much or more than people who are UU, have interacted with UU members etc.
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteSure, I might be marginalizing and misreading the beliefs of UU, but with judeo-christian origins and roots I kind of doubt it. Isn't the understanding that organized religion is a bad thing one of the few point that discordians actually agree on
Schmuck Assumption #2
Not all Discordians agree that organized religion is a bad thing. There are Discordian Christians, Discordian Wiccans, Discordian Thelemics, Discordian Druids, Discordian Muslims and that's just Discordians that I've met.
True, it was a bit of a schmuck assumption to think that there was anything discordians can agree on. Of course, since you can find examples falling outside the norm for any group and behavior, I don't see how this invalidates the existence of at least a general disagreement between discordianism and organized religion. Beyond that point, just because someone identifies themselves as a member of a religion doesn't mean that person actually agrees with everything about it. I have met plenty of people over the years on and the board here even that will take a moniker associated with an organized religion due to believing in the underlying beliefs but at the same time will be disgusted with that religion as an organization and want nothing to do with it.
Ah, so your experience with some Discordians are enough to make intelligent assumptions about all Discordians, except for the few fringe idiots.... good to know you're not being a schmuck about this.
And your experience with some is a better ground to make intelligent assumptions to the contrary?
[/quote]
I'm not the one making assumptions here about what ALL Discordians agree on. I've met Discordians that explicitly disagree with your maxim. I have no assumption to make.
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteThese are the organizations that say "look to us for answers instead of yourself, but we'll sometimes let you believe that we really want you to look to yourself for them". The places that use scare tactics to get you to live your life according to what they feel you should or shouldn't do instead of just trying to reason with you on behavioral patterns.
This is nothing like any UU belief I've ever encountered. Therefore, I'm gonna consider it likely to be Schmuck Assumption #3.
This is one that I'm not in a position to defend and I fully admit that I could have been out of line with. Since I have never attended a UU service, I can't know what tactics they try to employ, therefore have no idea if they do go for the good afterlife/bad afterlife way of trying to influence belief that many religions are so fond of. I admit that I pulled a schmuck assumption here due to the UU website touting it's origins while leaving most information regarding its current beliefs outside of the 7 main bullets buried deeper in the site. I would like to think of this as an honest mistake due to being mislead by the UU site, but I'm not going to try to fight for that.
Quote
I coould keep going but that's not useful. I hope these few examples show you exactly what I meant about assumptions that perhaps were due to the CS principle. But, perhaps you're one of the few who are never Cosmic Schmucks...
I wouldn't say never, as on a long enough timeline we all will take part in being one.
Indeed..... :kingmeh:
So tell me, considering that I've actually been finding supporting information, clarifying my arguments and standings, and addressing (the few) points brought up by people arguing against my statements, are you really going to be egotistical enough to try and say I'm the only one being a cosmic schmuck in this thread?
If someone has an issue with the accuracy of something I've brought up in this thread, I'd really like to hear it. And no, I don't just mean the "you're wrong, schmuck" and "go fuck yourself" type responses I've been getting, but something that will actually bring some sort of evidence to a specific point I'm wrong about. Just telling someone they are wrong on something without actually doing anything to prove it isn't helpful when they are trying to gain a deeper understanding on a subject, which I wanted to do when this all first started. Right now it's just starting to seem that UU members can't take any kind of jab/criticism of the church and can't be bothered to actually let people know what the hell it's about when they've got the wrong idea.
[/quote]
First, lets be clear, I am not a UU member. I personally find no redeeming value in organized religion.
Second, I think we've pointed out several areas where you were not accurate. If you can't find those, perhaps there are some iron bars in the way.
I find value in spiritual community, and this UU fellowship has both spirituality and community, and there doesn't seem to be any "dogma" beyond the belief in the inherent worth and dignity of every person.
Thwack, since you've never really talked with any UU's, studied UU principles or attended a UU fellowship service, it basically shows you have absolutely no understanding of what Unitarian Universalism is about, or at least less understanding than people who actually have done these things. In which case, you're critique is completely irrelevant. You don't understand it, so how can you really cast judgment?