Principia Discordia

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1204359/In-week-Harriet-Harman-takes-charge-feminist-initiative.html

QuoteFeminist agenda: Under controversial plans, schoolboys will be taught not to beat their partners or any other female

:argh!: GODDAMN YOU FEMINISTS, YOU CANT TELL ME WHAT TO DO!

Reminds me of how the bullying policies in US schools are considered "controversial" because it tells kids to not make fun of homosexuals.  It's weird seeing certain Christian groups suddenly becoming pro-bully.

I've said it before, and I'll say it now: this is all symptoms of a deep seated mysognyny. Antifeminism, homophobia, many many of the aspects of fundamentalist politics, and certainly unequality between the sexes. The western world practically seeths with it.

[meme]11/12ths of men are women haters and 2/3rds of women subconsciously think they deserve it [/meme]

Quote from: Kai on August 10, 2009, 01:11:33 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it now: this is all symptoms of a deep seated mysognyny. Antifeminism, homophobia, many many of the aspects of fundamentalist politics, and certainly unequality between the sexes. The western world practically seeths with it.

[meme]11/12ths of men are women haters and 2/3rds of women subconsciously think they deserve it [/meme]

I don't disagree with you. One thing I don't like about that meme though is that it doesn't provide an out, and seems more likely to trap people into that mindset. Maybe add in a bit about in the study, for the age-group forty and above, 11/12ths of men are... ?

Older people with established life patterns and attitudes are less likely to be swayed, plus it gives younger people a target to avoid and to be pissed off about. It's hard to go wrong exploiting generational divide.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 01:35:14 PM

Quote from: Kai on August 10, 2009, 01:11:33 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it now: this is all symptoms of a deep seated mysognyny. Antifeminism, homophobia, many many of the aspects of fundamentalist politics, and certainly unequality between the sexes. The western world practically seeths with it.

[meme]11/12ths of men are women haters and 2/3rds of women subconsciously think they deserve it [/meme]

I don't disagree with you. One thing I don't like about that meme though is that it doesn't provide an out, and seems more likely to trap people into that mindset. Maybe add in a bit about in the study, for the age-group forty and above, 11/12ths of men are... ?

Older people with established life patterns and attitudes are less likely to be swayed, plus it gives younger people a target to avoid and to be pissed off about. It's hard to go wrong exploiting generational divide.

The reason you don't get the meme is you weren't here for either the 11/12th incident (Save the Dolphins!) or the 2/3rds incident. It wasn't meant as anything but a  :horrormirth:

Backstory: Both those fractions are from PD.com in-jokes based on idiot threads.

One was "The world would be a better place for the dolphins if 11/12 people died," or something like that.

The other was something to the effect of, "2/3 of rape victims deserved it."

Quote from: Cain on August 10, 2009, 07:14:44 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1204359/In-week-Harriet-Harman-takes-charge-feminist-initiative.html

QuoteFeminist agenda: Under controversial plans, schoolboys will be taught not to beat their partners or any other female

:x

Though "most men secretly hate women, and most women secretly think they deserve it" is a memebomb with some merit.
Very horrormirth to me tho, specially heavy on the "horror" side of it.

Quote from: [uV*] on August 10, 2009, 05:09:48 PM
Though "most men secretly hate women, and most women secretly think they deserve it" is a memebomb with some merit.
Very horrormirth to me tho, specially heavy on the "horror" side of it.

It's one I would never support. Any other ideas on how to use it in a positive way?

Yeah, it's way too negative and cringey.

A positive line would be to reverse it, oppose it, yet acknowledge it, in some way that isn't too wordy. (And no, adding on "but that's totally wrong so stop it" doesn't count. It has to be witty.)

"Stop hating her, and you, stop thinking you deserve his hate!"

...no. :(

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 05:17:43 PM

Quote from: [uV*] on August 10, 2009, 05:09:48 PM
Though "most men secretly hate women, and most women secretly think they deserve it" is a memebomb with some merit.
Very horrormirth to me tho, specially heavy on the "horror" side of it.

It's one I would never support. Any other ideas on how to use it in a positive way?

Memebombs are not meant to be good advice, they're meant to provoke a reaction. This one provokes a pretty strong reaction.

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 06:12:49 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 05:17:43 PM

Quote from: [uV*] on August 10, 2009, 05:09:48 PM
Though "most men secretly hate women, and most women secretly think they deserve it" is a memebomb with some merit.
Very horrormirth to me tho, specially heavy on the "horror" side of it.

It's one I would never support. Any other ideas on how to use it in a positive way?

Memebombs are not meant to be good advice, they're meant to provoke a reaction. This one provokes a pretty strong reaction.

Agreed. It's a strong reaction that people are more likely to believe, internalise, and follow. Fuck that.

I'm gonna make a start on the age-divide angle if nothing else shows up.

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 06:12:49 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 05:17:43 PM

Quote from: [uV*] on August 10, 2009, 05:09:48 PM
Though "most men secretly hate women, and most women secretly think they deserve it" is a memebomb with some merit.
Very horrormirth to me tho, specially heavy on the "horror" side of it.

It's one I would never support. Any other ideas on how to use it in a positive way?

Memebombs are not meant to be good advice, they're meant to provoke a reaction. This one provokes a pretty strong reaction.

Yes, it does. It works.

A shortened, vaguer, neutered version works too: "You secretly think you deserve it".

Oooh, that actually does work.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 06:17:38 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 06:12:49 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 05:17:43 PM

Quote from: [uV*] on August 10, 2009, 05:09:48 PM
Though "most men secretly hate women, and most women secretly think they deserve it" is a memebomb with some merit.
Very horrormirth to me tho, specially heavy on the "horror" side of it.

It's one I would never support. Any other ideas on how to use it in a positive way?

Memebombs are not meant to be good advice, they're meant to provoke a reaction. This one provokes a pretty strong reaction.

Agreed. It's a strong reaction that people are more likely to believe, internalise, and follow. Fuck that.

I'm gonna make a start on the age-divide angle if nothing else shows up.

You have very little faith in humanity, even by PD standards. Most memebombs provoke a strong reaction because they rephrase something that is already assumed; a closet misogynist will have a terribly strong reaction to this. But a memebomb will also make the assumed idea shocking, and has just as much of a potential for provoking the opposite reaction as for provoking the literally implied one. It's like stealth sarasm by way of trolling, except that the person being trolled is trolling him/herself.

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on August 10, 2009, 06:25:56 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 06:17:38 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 06:12:49 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 05:17:43 PM

Quote from: [uV*] on August 10, 2009, 05:09:48 PM
Though "most men secretly hate women, and most women secretly think they deserve it" is a memebomb with some merit.
Very horrormirth to me tho, specially heavy on the "horror" side of it.

It's one I would never support. Any other ideas on how to use it in a positive way?

Memebombs are not meant to be good advice, they're meant to provoke a reaction. This one provokes a pretty strong reaction.

Agreed. It's a strong reaction that people are more likely to believe, internalise, and follow. Fuck that.

I'm gonna make a start on the age-divide angle if nothing else shows up.

You have very little faith in humanity, even by PD standards. Most memebombs provoke a strong reaction because they rephrase something that is already assumed; a closet misogynist will have a terribly strong reaction to this. But a memebomb will also make the assumed idea shocking, and has just as much of a potential for provoking the opposite reaction as for provoking the literally implied one. It's like stealth sarasm by way of trolling, except that the person being trolled is trolling him/herself.

No. The people being trolled are the victims of the hate this meme perpetuates.

Most people wouldn't give this a much thought before absorbing it - it doesn't even encourage the misogynist to re-evaluate their views, or place them in a different context. I don't want to slippery slope this out of proportion, but hate is not far away from violence.. and once the meme is absorbed then the damage is done.

Is a memebomb that relates to domestic violence having "just as much of a potential for provoking the opposite reaction as for provoking the literally implied one", something that you'd want to promote?

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 06:17:38 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 06:12:49 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 05:17:43 PM

Quote from: [uV*] on August 10, 2009, 05:09:48 PM
Though "most men secretly hate women, and most women secretly think they deserve it" is a memebomb with some merit.
Very horrormirth to me tho, specially heavy on the "horror" side of it.

It's one I would never support. Any other ideas on how to use it in a positive way?

Memebombs are not meant to be good advice, they're meant to provoke a reaction. This one provokes a pretty strong reaction.

Agreed. It's a strong reaction that people are more likely to believe, internalise, and follow. Fuck that.

I'm gonna make a start on the age-divide angle if nothing else shows up.

What?

Basically, what Enki said. People may be pretty fucking dumb, but your own reaction to it should provide a clue as to how other people will react to it. I'm pretty sure more people will react with "WTF, that's horrible" than "LOL yeah, that's totally true."

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:05:46 PM
Basically, what Enki said. People may be pretty fucking dumb, but your own reaction to it should provide a clue as to how other people will react to it. I'm pretty sure more people will react with "WTF, that's horrible" than "LOL yeah, that's totally true."

That is horrible. That is a fact. There is no way out.

At least with the age-divide angle, you encourage people to wonder "am I like those men aged 40+ who hate women, or did I just give myself permission to act differently?"

a meme bomb > stating your opinion in a pithy, witty way


meme bombs are less powerful the more they approach reactionary politics or rational commentary


during OPERATION CHAOS, we trolled rush limbaugh's followers by acting like really over-the-top republitards. We posted on his boards about how WE'D RATHER SEE A HANGING THAN AN INAUGURATION - I'LL BRING THE ROPE!!  --- knowing that our over-the-top hyperbole reflects poorly on the whole group. And that likely some moderates or outliers would be disgusted by the party's embrace of that sentiment, and then be further distanced by it.

It's like how Obama's not doing much to counter the birther movement. I'm sure he's got a birth certificate he's saving in a vault for just the right moment. He knows its a dead end so he's letting it get as much steam as possible.



anyway, sorry for the rambling jack

(http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr70/AidanGriff/roflbot.jpg?t=1249928447)

Quote from: Cramulus on August 10, 2009, 07:16:49 PM
a meme bomb > stating your opinion in a pithy, witty way


meme bombs are less powerful the more they approach reactionary politics or rational commentary


during OPERATION CHAOS, we trolled rush limbaugh's followers by acting like really over-the-top republitards. We posted on his boards about how WE'D RATHER SEE A HANGING THAN AN INAUGURATION - I'LL BRING THE ROPE!!  --- knowing that our over-the-top hyperbole reflects poorly on the whole group. And that likely some moderates or outliers would be disgusted by the party's embrace of that sentiment, and then be further distanced by it.

It's like how Obama's not doing much to counter the birther movement. I'm sure he's got a birth certificate he's saving in a vault for just the right moment. He knows its a dead end so he's letting it get as much steam as possible.



anyway, sorry for the rambling jack

I don't think it's a jack, both examples would work well because they are popular topics with a conclusion - it's more like pulling a trigger than planting bad seeds.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:05:46 PM
Basically, what Enki said. People may be pretty fucking dumb, but your own reaction to it should provide a clue as to how other people will react to it. I'm pretty sure more people will react with "WTF, that's horrible" than "LOL yeah, that's totally true."

That is horrible. That is a fact. There is no way out.

At least with the age-divide angle, you encourage people to wonder "am I like those men aged 40+ who hate women, or did I just give myself permission to act differently?"

What?

Surely you don't actually believe that this memebomb is so powerful and effective that people will thoroughly internalize it without giving it a second thought, and that it will somehow become a deep-rooted part of their personal memeplex and cause them to be misogynistic?

Because if that's what's got a bee in your bonnet, you've been meme-bombed. In the face.

As a memebomb, the phrase is not meant to be internalized, accepted, and replicated by those who are exposed to it. It's meant to clash with the memes already floating around in their head, just as it has clashed with yours. This clash, or "discord," is inherently awesome and there needs to be more of it. I've been thinking about founding a bogus religion that is devoted to spreading this "discord."

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:23:36 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:05:46 PM
Basically, what Enki said. People may be pretty fucking dumb, but your own reaction to it should provide a clue as to how other people will react to it. I'm pretty sure more people will react with "WTF, that's horrible" than "LOL yeah, that's totally true."

That is horrible. That is a fact. There is no way out.

At least with the age-divide angle, you encourage people to wonder "am I like those men aged 40+ who hate women, or did I just give myself permission to act differently?"

What?

Surely you don't actually believe that this memebomb is so powerful and effective that people will thoroughly internalize it without giving it a second thought, and that it will somehow become a deep-rooted part of their personal memeplex and cause them to be misogynistic?

Yes. I do believe that, with the one difference that I see misogyny as part of a spectrum, rather than a binary "true", "false".

I believe this is why people have different cultural personalities based upon the people they come in contact with. It's not like we have the ability to measure it yet, or to pinpoint any particular tipping point. But the effect has a very strong probability in my mind.

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:23:36 PM
Because if that's what's got a bee in your bonnet, you've been meme-bombed. In the face.

As a memebomb, the phrase is not meant to be internalized, accepted, and replicated by those who are exposed to it. It's meant to clash with the memes already floating around in their head, just as it has clashed with yours. This clash, or "discord," is inherently awesome and there needs to be more of it. I've been thinking about founding a bogus religion that is devoted to spreading this "discord."

Why is it inherently awesome? Is it inherently awesome if it results in a negligible statistical increase in domestic abuse?

FACT: After reading that meme, 11/12ths of myself started hating me, and 2/3's of me thinks that I deserve it.

Ever since that meme has been brought up I have becoming misogynistic bastard

The problem with memes like this is that they just don't fucking listen.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 07:34:32 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:23:36 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:05:46 PM
Basically, what Enki said. People may be pretty fucking dumb, but your own reaction to it should provide a clue as to how other people will react to it. I'm pretty sure more people will react with "WTF, that's horrible" than "LOL yeah, that's totally true."

That is horrible. That is a fact. There is no way out.

At least with the age-divide angle, you encourage people to wonder "am I like those men aged 40+ who hate women, or did I just give myself permission to act differently?"

What?

Surely you don't actually believe that this memebomb is so powerful and effective that people will thoroughly internalize it without giving it a second thought, and that it will somehow become a deep-rooted part of their personal memeplex and cause them to be misogynistic?

Yes. I do believe that, with the one difference that I see misogyny as part of a spectrum, rather than a binary "true", "false".

I believe this is why people have different cultural personalities based upon the people they come in contact with. It's not like we have the ability to measure it yet, or to pinpoint any particular tipping point. But the effect has a very strong probability in my mind.

Oh, I understand your position now! You're dumb.

And while I can probably agree that misogyny is a spectrum rather than a binary possibility, I fail to see what relevance that has on this argument.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 07:34:32 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:23:36 PM
Because if that's what's got a bee in your bonnet, you've been meme-bombed. In the face.

As a memebomb, the phrase is not meant to be internalized, accepted, and replicated by those who are exposed to it. It's meant to clash with the memes already floating around in their head, just as it has clashed with yours. This clash, or "discord," is inherently awesome and there needs to be more of it. I've been thinking about founding a bogus religion that is devoted to spreading this "discord."

Why is it inherently awesome? Is it inherently awesome if it results in a negligible statistical increase in domestic abuse?

Because it's inherently awesome to say stuff like that around people who take their shit too seriously.






Also, I've beaten 3 women since I first read that memebomb. I did it because all bitches deserve it; they said so themselves after being exposed to the memebomb.

Hmmmm be careful,
do not underestimate The Power Of Stupid.

there will be some 'people' who will be swayed in the wrong direction by this memebomb.

I'd call that an acceptable side effect.

Anybody who would say, "You know he's right" was probably a sexist bastard to begin with.

Srsly, if anything, this kind of memebomb serves to make people CONSCIOUSLY think about the problem, not to simply internalize it. Who the hell reads a memebomb like that and thinks "oh yeah good point" with no further? People will either ignore it (most will, if not forced to pay attention) or think about it. I don't see how anybody would possibly become (more) misogynistic from reading that.

 :cramstipated: :cramstipated: :cramstipated: :cramstipated: :cramstipated::cramstipated:

STOP USING THAT WORD

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:45:31 PM
Oh, I understand your position now! You're dumb.

And while I can probably agree that misogyny is a spectrum rather than a binary possibility, I fail to see what relevance that has on this argument.

Because if it is not a binary construct, then every single meme has an impact one way or the other.

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:45:31 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 07:34:32 PM
Why is it inherently awesome? Is it inherently awesome if it results in a negligible statistical increase in domestic abuse?

Because it's inherently awesome to say stuff like that around people who take their shit too seriously.

Also, I've beaten 3 women since I first read that memebomb. I did it because all bitches deserve it; they said so themselves after being exposed to the memebomb.

When did hitting women, and promoting memes which make that more likely, become funny?

fictionpuss really knows how to ram a word into the ground doesn't he? 

2/3 of the words deserve it.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 10, 2009, 08:14:11 PM
fictionpuss really knows how to ram a word into the ground doesn't he? 

I didn't bring up memebombs.. but don't let that stop you.

he turned an occasionally functional concept into a fly covered pile of shit ..

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:16:40 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 10, 2009, 08:14:11 PM
fictionpuss really knows how to ram a word into the ground doesn't he? 

I didn't bring up memebombs.. but don't let that stop you.

I won't.  Thanks for the seal of approval though. 

Quote from: fomenter on August 10, 2009, 08:17:33 PM
he turned an occasionally functional concept into a fly covered pile of shit ..

formenter - do you want to keep that to the other thread, or start a war over the whole board?

Wow, someone is feeling his oats, isn't he? 

Wait... was that :lmnuendo: ?

I said Oats, not Cream of Wheat. 

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:19:17 PM
"bullshit"

(http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/ArticleImages/WoW/2008/01%20-%20January/WoW20080118Hummel1.jpg)

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 10, 2009, 08:21:44 PM
Wow, someone is feeling his oats, isn't he? 

Not really. I don't want a shit-flinging contest, because getting covered in shit isn't fun. No one wins.

But if formenter wants to keep putting the boot in, rather than respect a truce, then I'm going to throw some back.

Mixed metaphors, but you get the point I presume - it's pretty simple really.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:10:06 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:45:31 PM
Oh, I understand your position now! You're dumb.

And while I can probably agree that misogyny is a spectrum rather than a binary possibility, I fail to see what relevance that has on this argument.

Because if it is not a binary construct, then every single meme has an impact one way or the other.

And you claim to know which way this phrase will influence people on the grand scale?

For that, I laugh at you. Like this --> :lol:

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:10:06 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:45:31 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 07:34:32 PM
Why is it inherently awesome? Is it inherently awesome if it results in a negligible statistical increase in domestic abuse?

Because it's inherently awesome to say stuff like that around people who take their shit too seriously.

Also, I've beaten 3 women since I first read that memebomb. I did it because all bitches deserve it; they said so themselves after being exposed to the memebomb.

When did hitting women, and promoting memes which make that more likely, become funny?

It became funny at the precise moment you decided to take this shit too seriously.

Also, I still disagree that this phrase makes misogyny and domestic abuse more likely. Your reasons for believing it will are poorly argued at best, and moronic at worst.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:10:06 PM
When did hitting women, and promoting memes which make that more likely, become funny?

Since when did this meme make hitting women more likely? All it seems to do is to bring reactions of disgust at mysogyny to the fore.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:26:56 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 10, 2009, 08:21:44 PM
Wow, someone is feeling his oats, isn't he? 

Not really. I don't want a shit-flinging contest, because getting covered in shit isn't fun. No one wins.

But if formenter wants to keep putting the boot in, rather than respect a truce, then I'm going to throw some back.

Mixed metaphors, but you get the point I presume - it's pretty simple really.

I actually don't care.  I'm just killing time.  

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 08:30:10 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:10:06 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:45:31 PM
Oh, I understand your position now! You're dumb.

And while I can probably agree that misogyny is a spectrum rather than a binary possibility, I fail to see what relevance that has on this argument.

Because if it is not a binary construct, then every single meme has an impact one way or the other.

And you claim to know which way this phrase will influence people on the grand scale?

Absolutely not. All I am claiming is that spreading a meme which encourages people to believe that they almost certainly (11/12) hate women on some level, seems entirely likely to do more damage than a meme which encourages people to believe that while this might be true for an older generation, that they have a personal choice.

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 08:30:10 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:10:06 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:45:31 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 07:34:32 PM
Why is it inherently awesome? Is it inherently awesome if it results in a negligible statistical increase in domestic abuse?

Because it's inherently awesome to say stuff like that around people who take their shit too seriously.

Also, I've beaten 3 women since I first read that memebomb. I did it because all bitches deserve it; they said so themselves after being exposed to the memebomb.

When did hitting women, and promoting memes which make that more likely, become funny?

It became funny at the precise moment you decided to take this shit too seriously.

Also, I still disagree that this phrase makes misogyny and domestic abuse more likely. Your reasons for believing it will are poorly argued at best, and moronic at worst.

Well, if I argued the reasons more eloquently (I won't argue that I argue poorly), would that change anything in your mind?

Do you really think humans are that passive, that they will take a sticker or a flyer or an internet or some anonymous comment that they are misogynistic and completely accept it at face value?

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 10, 2009, 08:41:17 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:26:56 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 10, 2009, 08:21:44 PM
Wow, someone is feeling his oats, isn't he? 

Not really. I don't want a shit-flinging contest, because getting covered in shit isn't fun. No one wins.

But if formenter wants to keep putting the boot in, rather than respect a truce, then I'm going to throw some back.

Mixed metaphors, but you get the point I presume - it's pretty simple really.

I actually don't care.  I'm just killing time.  

:argh!: The folks over at CoG said that I should register here because everyone here cares a lot more, but I haven't seen much evidence of this so far.

We do care -- just not in the same way you do, nor about the same things.

I present the last 3 and a half pages of discussion as evidence that "most men secretly hate women, and most women secretly think they deserve it" is a successful memebomb.



Also, it's time to celebrate, PD.com: we've found someone who has an even lower opinion of humanity than most of us!

Quote from: LMNO on August 10, 2009, 08:47:58 PM
Do you really think humans are that passive, that they will take a sticker or a flyer or an internet or some anonymous comment that they are misogynistic and completely accept it at face value?

If they have no reason to disbelieve it (misogyny and masochism being on a spectrum, rather than a grid), and it gets absorbed with no reason to consider it with more depth.. then yes. Absolutely.

I'd say most of what we consider our free-will is dictated by this.

What you've just derided, is the basis for all advertising, after all.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:48:56 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 10, 2009, 08:41:17 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:26:56 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 10, 2009, 08:21:44 PM
Wow, someone is feeling his oats, isn't he? 

Not really. I don't want a shit-flinging contest, because getting covered in shit isn't fun. No one wins.

But if formenter wants to keep putting the boot in, rather than respect a truce, then I'm going to throw some back.

Mixed metaphors, but you get the point I presume - it's pretty simple really.

I actually don't care.  I'm just killing time.  

:argh!: The folks over at CoG said that I should register here because everyone here cares a lot more, but I haven't seen much evidence of this so far.

Yes, and arguing about internet memes accomplishes quite a bit doesn't it?  By golly, if you work hard enough you might cure cancer AND establish universal health care.  

all ideas can change behavior

luckily, human beings are too resillient to be blindly led by statements like "DRINK COKE!" unless they already have a framework which supports that idea.

merely saying "RAPE WOMEN" is not dangerous, not any moreso than it was dangerous for John Swift to say "EAT BABIES". if people were really vulnerable to such statements, we'd be living in a world of totalitarian marketing. One guy with a megaphone could change the world. Until another guy with a megaphone came along.

I also believe that in the end, the human being is responsible for its own actions. If I create a really compelling argument to go kill your parents, and you do, it's still your fault. I might feel bad about it, but in the end, it was your choice. So we shouldn't get too hung up about the far reaching moral implications of certain statements unless you really think that language is mind control. And if you do, (cram wiggles his fingers, implying a magic spell) STOP THINKING THAT.  :fnord:

Quote from: Cramulus on August 10, 2009, 08:54:50 PM
all ideas can change behavior

luckily, human beings are too resillient to be blindly led by statements like "DRINK COKE!" unless they already have a framework which supports that idea.

merely saying "RAPE WOMEN" is not dangerous, not any moreso than it was dangerous for John Swift to say "EAT BABIES". if people were really vulnerable to such statements, we'd be living in a world of totalitarian marketing. One guy with a megaphone could change the world. Until another guy with a megaphone came along.

I also believe that in the end, the human being is responsible for its own actions. If I create a really compelling argument to go kill your parents, and you do, it's still your fault. I might feel bad about it, but in the end, it was your choice.

I agree. I'd also say that the resilience you describe is made up of symbiotic memes.

Quote from: Cramulus on August 10, 2009, 08:54:50 PM
So we shouldn't get too hung up about the far reaching moral implications of certain statements unless you really think that language is mind control. And if you do, (cram wiggles his fingers, implying a magic spell) STOP THINKING THAT.  :fnord:

Why should I not think like that? Everything I've seen points to that conclusion. I think it's mostly without intent - with the big exception of advertising. And the construction of other phrases to make people think in certain ways. Etc.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:46:12 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 08:30:10 PM
And you claim to know which way this phrase will influence people on the grand scale?

Absolutely not. All I am claiming is that spreading a meme which encourages people to believe that they almost certainly (11/12) hate women on some level, seems entirely likely to do more damage than a meme which encourages people to believe that while this might be true for an older generation, that they have a personal choice.

And I'm claiming that you're wrong. I think that most people exposed to the memebomb will react with "That's awful, and even if it is true, it doesn't apply to me." That would then subtly encourage them to be less misogynistic, in order to prove (if only to themselves) that the asshole who thinks most men hate women is wrong.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:46:12 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 08:30:10 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:10:06 PM
When did hitting women, and promoting memes which make that more likely, become funny?

It became funny at the precise moment you decided to take this shit too seriously.

Also, I still disagree that this phrase makes misogyny and domestic abuse more likely. Your reasons for believing it will are poorly argued at best, and moronic at worst.

Well, if I argued the reasons more eloquently (I won't argue that I argue poorly), would that change anything in your mind?

Probably not, on account of you being wrong. Taking a harshly cynical stance on how mind-bogglingly stupid and easily led people are does not make you right.

Quote from: Cramulus on August 10, 2009, 08:54:50 PM
all ideas can change behavior

luckily, human beings are too resillient to be blindly led by statements like "DRINK COKE!" unless they already have a framework which supports that idea.

merely saying "RAPE WOMEN" is not dangerous, not any moreso than it was dangerous for John Swift to say "EAT BABIES". if people were really vulnerable to such statements, we'd be living in a world of totalitarian marketing. One guy with a megaphone could change the world. Until another guy with a megaphone came along.

I also believe that in the end, the human being is responsible for its own actions. If I create a really compelling argument to go kill your parents, and you do, it's still your fault. I might feel bad about it, but in the end, it was your choice. So we shouldn't get too hung up about the far reaching moral implications of certain statements unless you really think that language is mind control. And if you do, (cram wiggles his fingers, implying a magic spell) STOP THINKING THAT.  :fnord:

:mittens:

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Meme? on August 10, 2009, 08:54:23 PM
Yes, and arguing about internet memes accomplishes quite a bit doesn't it?  By golly, if you work hard enough you might cure cancer AND establish universal health care.  

Maybe. Cynicism is nothing but self-fulfilling.

This thread has sooo moved me I've officially changed my username in solidarity.  I'm going to tie ribbons to my trees tonight.  What color should they be?  

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 09:03:02 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Meme? on August 10, 2009, 08:54:23 PM
Yes, and arguing about internet memes accomplishes quite a bit doesn't it?  By golly, if you work hard enough you might cure cancer AND establish universal health care.  

Maybe. Cynicism is nothing but self-fulfilling.

Yes, but I self-fulfill in style!   8)

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 09:01:30 PM

Quote from: Cramulus on August 10, 2009, 08:54:50 PM
So we shouldn't get too hung up about the far reaching moral implications of certain statements unless you really think that language is mind control. And if you do, (cram wiggles his fingers, implying a magic spell) STOP THINKING THAT.  :fnord:

Why should I not think like that? Everything I've seen points to that conclusion. I think it's mostly without intent - with the big exception of advertising. And the construction of other phrases to make people think in certain ways. Etc.

Wait, so saying something and exposing you to an idea will make you significantly more likely to do what the idea suggests, even if you find it offensive or already disagree with it? Cool!


Hey fictionpuss:

You are wrong, admit that I'm right.
You are wrong, admit that I'm right.
You are wrong, admit that I'm right.
You are wrong, admit that I'm right.
You are wrong, admit that I'm right.
You are wrong, admit that I'm right.



Is it working yet? Based on your understanding of human nature, I should already be halfway towards convincing the whole world that I'm an expert in every subject ever.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Meme? on August 10, 2009, 09:03:22 PM
This thread has sooo moved me I've officially changed my username in solidarity.  I'm going to tie ribbons to my trees tonight.  What color should they be?  

Chartreuse

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 09:02:35 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:46:12 PM
Absolutely not. All I am claiming is that spreading a meme which encourages people to believe that they almost certainly (11/12) hate women on some level, seems entirely likely to do more damage than a meme which encourages people to believe that while this might be true for an older generation, that they have a personal choice.

And I'm claiming that you're wrong. I think that most people exposed to the memebomb will react with "That's awful, and even if it is true, it doesn't apply to me." That would then subtly encourage them to be less misogynistic, in order to prove (if only to themselves) that the asshole who thinks most men hate women is wrong.

Well now you're claiming a deeper insight on "which way this phrase will influence people on the grand scale"!

So now we're even, I can relax while you describe your logic as to why the events will occur in the way you describe, and definitely not in the way which I do.

My sticking point: you say that most people will feel compelled of their own accord to evaluate the meme against their own actions, and that this will be more effective than a meme which is specifically constructed to evoke this evaluation.

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 09:02:35 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:46:12 PM
Well, if I argued the reasons more eloquently (I won't argue that I argue poorly), would that change anything in your mind?

Probably not, on account of you being wrong. Taking a harshly cynical stance on how mind-bogglingly stupid and easily led people are does not make you right.

At least now I am not alone in arguing poorly.

How is what I suggest "harshly cynical" and "wrong", when compared to something like the advertising industry?

I LOVE RAPE

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 09:02:35 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 09:01:30 PM

Quote from: Cramulus on August 10, 2009, 08:54:50 PM
So we shouldn't get too hung up about the far reaching moral implications of certain statements unless you really think that language is mind control. And if you do, (cram wiggles his fingers, implying a magic spell) STOP THINKING THAT.  :fnord:

Why should I not think like that? Everything I've seen points to that conclusion. I think it's mostly without intent - with the big exception of advertising. And the construction of other phrases to make people think in certain ways. Etc.

Wait, so saying something and exposing you to an idea will make you significantly more likely to do what the idea suggests, even if you find it offensive or already disagree with it? Cool!

If an idea jives enough with your current memeset, that it is absorbed without further consideration, then it has been partially successful because it has not been rejected.

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 09:02:35 PM
You are wrong, admit that I'm right.
You are wrong, admit that I'm right.
You are wrong, admit that I'm right.
You are wrong, admit that I'm right.
You are wrong, admit that I'm right.
You are wrong, admit that I'm right.



Is it working yet? Based on your understanding of human nature, I should already be halfway towards convincing the whole world that I'm an expert in every subject ever.

You're attempting a strawman. See above.

Hey Cainad, should I buy stocks or bongs? 

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:05:46 PM
Basically, what Enki said. People may be pretty fucking dumb, but your own reaction to it should provide a clue as to how other people will react to it. I'm pretty sure more people will react with "WTF, that's horrible" than "LOL yeah, that's totally true."

That is horrible. That is a fact. There is no way out.

At least with the age-divide angle, you encourage people to wonder "am I like those men aged 40+ who hate women, or did I just give myself permission to act differently?"

There are an awful lot of us who are over 40, though. Is there some particular reason you think men over 40 are more misogynistic, or more deserving of being left in a bubble of perceived misogyny? It certainly hasn't been my experience.

For that matter, I think most people will read that and have a conscious moment of thinking it's fucked-up.

Is Fictionpuss the same guy who thought a chain email hypnotized him?

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Meme? on August 10, 2009, 09:34:26 PM
Hey Cainad, should I buy stocks or bongs? 

I would recommend putting your money in vestments.

Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on August 10, 2009, 09:38:13 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 07:05:46 PM
Basically, what Enki said. People may be pretty fucking dumb, but your own reaction to it should provide a clue as to how other people will react to it. I'm pretty sure more people will react with "WTF, that's horrible" than "LOL yeah, that's totally true."

That is horrible. That is a fact. There is no way out.

At least with the age-divide angle, you encourage people to wonder "am I like those men aged 40+ who hate women, or did I just give myself permission to act differently?"

There are an awful lot of us who are over 40, though. Is there some particular reason you think men over 40 are more misogynistic, or more deserving of being left in a bubble of perceived misogyny? It certainly hasn't been my experience.

The reason for picking 40 is that it evokes the Us Vs. Them mentality - people in their 20s will be developing their relationship habits and are more likely to be close to people in their 30's than 40's. People in their 40's are most likely to have developed a natural immunity to the meme from the fact that they are more likely to be settled into their lifestyles and behaviour patterns - generally speaking they are less impressionable. Someone in their 40's saying "it's not true" to someone in their 20's is less likely to be believed than someone nearer their own demographic.

Of course, this is all handy-wavey fappery rather than science.

So I don't believe the meme, I just added an age-divide in there because of the tendency of younger people to reflexively rebel against what their elders do. It's a relative rather than absolute thing - I tried to improve the existing meme by making it less dangerous, and I do think it's more likely to be positive with that modification.

Almost entirely irrelevant to all of this, is the fact that it's likely to have absolutely no impact on anything ever, either way.

Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on August 10, 2009, 09:38:13 PM
For that matter, I think most people will read that and have a conscious moment of thinking it's fucked-up.

It's the internalising that happens afterwards that gives me pause. But without a way to measure it either way, I guess it's mostly speculation.

Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on August 10, 2009, 10:14:19 PM
Is Fictionpuss the same guy who thought a chain email hypnotized him?

To be fair, I think it did.

To be fair, this might not surprise anyone.

christ.  how does this keep happening?

input time:

I think it is a good memebomb.  it is not something that is likely to be internalized because it bounces off other "memes"... fuck it.  it bounces off other ideas and social constructs already planted within us.  The majority of people read that statement and the "sexuality inequality is wrong!" idea fires up (call it a meme if you must), so they have an adverse reaction to the memebomb and this influences the way they act, because now they have two associated ideas about sexual inequality.  The first is "sexual inequality is bad!" the second is "women deserve it - wait I don't want to be like that fucko..."

It's basically reverse psychology, but fictionpuss seems to be interpreting memebomb here as an actual ideal, rather than what it is, which is a statement design to provoke a response, which then may lead to an ideal being reinforced, whether it agrees or disagrees with the original statement is dependent on the individual.

e.g.

"END THOUGHT CRIME; STOP THINKING"

is unlikely to stop people from thinking.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 09:11:00 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 09:02:35 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:46:12 PM
Absolutely not. All I am claiming is that spreading a meme which encourages people to believe that they almost certainly (11/12) hate women on some level, seems entirely likely to do more damage than a meme which encourages people to believe that while this might be true for an older generation, that they have a personal choice.

And I'm claiming that you're wrong. I think that most people exposed to the memebomb will react with "That's awful, and even if it is true, it doesn't apply to me." That would then subtly encourage them to be less misogynistic, in order to prove (if only to themselves) that the asshole who thinks most men hate women is wrong.

Well now you're claiming a deeper insight on "which way this phrase will influence people on the grand scale"!

So now we're even, I can relax while you describe your logic as to why the events will occur in the way you describe, and definitely not in the way which I do.

My sticking point: you say that most people will feel compelled of their own accord to evaluate the meme against their own actions, and that this will be more effective than a meme which is specifically constructed to evoke this evaluation.

My logic (by which I mean speculation based on my limited understanding of people) is that people will think twice about it (that being half the point of a memebomb), rather than going "durr yeah men hate women and women think they deserve it."

Sure, some assholes will probably accept it at face value, but those people were probably already assholes.

Furthermore, I would argue that the memebomb is constructed to cause one to evaluate one's own behavior. Because it sounds so awful, it jarrs with people's existing thought patterns and makes them think. A blunt, assertive, and controversial statement is indeed more effective than putting out the whole thought you want people to think in meme form. Planting the beginnings of an idea is far more compelling than dumping the whole idea into someone's head.

If I saw a poster or other medium with a pithy message that more or less translated to "Think about whether or not you're a misogynist... well, are you?" I would react with "Nope, now please leave me alone. I already know misogyny is a bad thing, I don't need you telling me about it." And that would be basically the end of it, and then I would make a misogynistic joke just to be an asshole (although that last bit is just me).

If I saw something that essentially said "Pretty much all men are misogynists and pretty much all women accept it" I would more likely think "Hey, fuck you! I'm not a woman-hater!" and then I would spend more time thinking about my own behavior towards women.

These are not merely facts; this is cold, hard, wild speculation.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 09:11:00 PM

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 09:02:35 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 08:46:12 PM
Well, if I argued the reasons more eloquently (I won't argue that I argue poorly), would that change anything in your mind?

Probably not, on account of you being wrong. Taking a harshly cynical stance on how mind-bogglingly stupid and easily led people are does not make you right.

At least now I am not alone in arguing poorly.

How is what I suggest "harshly cynical" and "wrong", when compared to something like the advertising industry?

You seem to think that people are so monstrously stupid that reading the phrase "most men secretly hate women, and most women secretly think they deserve it" will influence them towards greater misogyny. That's pretty damn cynical, and I think it's wrong. Advertising doesn't enter into it.

Quote from: Roaring Biscuit! on August 10, 2009, 10:29:03 PM
christ.  how does this keep happening?

Because PD.com FUCKING RULES.


For the record, I think all of this has been worthwhile discussion. Even the dickery. Fictionpuss, regardless of how totally wrong he is, has given me something to think about: are we responsible for the effects our memebombs might have? It's a worthwhile question, although my answer is still "not really, no."

yes, i think that as these memebombs are the closest thing Discordians have to televangelism, we're doing pretty okay, on the not being twats front.

What I mean by that is, a memebomb does not try to influence people to think in a certain way, but tries to influence them to think about the way they think.  Which is probably a good thing, because to change the minds of people who would Think For Themselves, and continue to be arseholes, we'd have to start being very unDiscordian*.

*or at least in my vision of Discordia, which may vary massively from everyone elses.

Quote from: Roaring Biscuit! on August 10, 2009, 10:29:03 PM
I think it is a good memebomb.  it is not something that is likely to be internalized because it bounces off other "memes"... fuck it.  it bounces off other ideas and social constructs already planted within us.  The majority of people read that statement and the "sexuality inequality is wrong!" idea fires up (call it a meme if you must), so they have an adverse reaction to the memebomb and this influences the way they act, because now they have two associated ideas about sexual inequality.  The first is "sexual inequality is bad!" the second is "women deserve it - wait I don't want to be like that fucko..."

Why the hesitation to call a "meme" a "meme"? If we were talking genetics, would you say "in humans the unit of replication is the gen... the aspects of DN... squiggly spirally stuff which..". It seems absurd to attack every use rather than every misuse.

You miss the part about internalising the belief that those statistics say something about the rest of society. Eater Of Clowns was arguing yesterday that conformity defines reality - right here (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21774.msg739244#msg739244). Am I wrong to bring that sociological aspect into this? We disagreed on the mechanism, but agreed upon the effect.

Quote from: Roaring Biscuit! on August 10, 2009, 10:29:03 PM
It's basically reverse psychology, but fictionpuss seems to be interpreting memebomb here as an actual ideal, rather than what it is, which is a statement design to provoke a response, which then may lead to an ideal being reinforced, whether it agrees or disagrees with the original statement is dependent on the individual.

I think that when you have something which may or may not increase actual instances of domestic abuse, then you do have a responsibility to think it through - I'm not comfortable just washing my hands and saying "it's all just a sociological experiment".

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 10:39:26 PM
My logic (by which I mean speculation based on my limited understanding of people) is that people will think twice about it (that being half the point of a memebomb), rather than going "durr yeah men hate women and women think they deserve it."

Sure, some assholes will probably accept it at face value, but those people were probably already assholes.

So there's no responsibility to be bared by enabling them? Even when you know that's going to be part of the result?

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 10:39:26 PM
Furthermore, I would argue that the memebomb is constructed to cause one to evaluate one's own behavior. Because it sounds so awful, it jarrs with people's existing thought patterns and makes them think. A blunt, assertive, and controversial statement is indeed more effective than putting out the whole thought you want people to think in meme form. Planting the beginnings of an idea is far more compelling than dumping the whole idea into someone's head.

If I saw a poster or other medium with a pithy message that more or less translated to "Think about whether or not you're a misogynist... well, are you?" I would react with "Nope, now please leave me alone. I already know misogyny is a bad thing, I don't need you telling me about it." And that would be basically the end of it, and then I would make a misogynistic joke just to be an asshole (although that last bit is just me).

I agree with your conclusions. However, I was arguing for an age-divide element to encourage further thought, not an explicit "think about" direction to further thought.

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 10:39:26 PM
If I saw something that essentially said "Pretty much all men are misogynists and pretty much all women accept it" I would more likely think "Hey, fuck you! I'm not a woman-hater!" and then I would spend more time thinking about my own behavior towards women.

These are not merely facts; this is cold, hard, wild speculation.

I appreciate it. I suspect we may be disagreeing for the sake of disagreement though, because I don't see much difference in our opinions. There's a wider difference in your opinion of what my opinion is (hence the strawmen), but that's natural.

Quote from: Cainad on August 10, 2009, 10:39:26 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 09:11:00 PM
How is what I suggest "harshly cynical" and "wrong", when compared to something like the advertising industry?

You seem to think that people are so monstrously stupid that reading the phrase "most men secretly hate women, and most women secretly think they deserve it" will influence them towards greater misogyny. That's pretty damn cynical, and I think it's wrong. Advertising doesn't enter into it.

I meant, in what way is it cynical?

Advertising works. It uses similar techniques to burrow ideas into peoples minds. Why is it irrelevant?

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 10:56:05 PM

Quote from: Roaring Biscuit! on August 10, 2009, 10:29:03 PM
I think it is a good memebomb.  it is not something that is likely to be internalized because it bounces off other "memes"... fuck it.  it bounces off other ideas and social constructs already planted within us.  The majority of people read that statement and the "sexuality inequality is wrong!" idea fires up (call it a meme if you must), so they have an adverse reaction to the memebomb and this influences the way they act, because now they have two associated ideas about sexual inequality.  The first is "sexual inequality is bad!" the second is "women deserve it - wait I don't want to be like that fucko..."

Why the hesitation to call a "meme" a "meme"? If we were talking genetics, would you say "in humans the unit of replication is the gen... the aspects of DN... squiggly spirally stuff which..". It seems absurd to attack every use rather than every misuse.

You miss the part about internalising the belief that those statistics say something about the rest of society. Eater Of Clowns was arguing yesterday that conformity defines reality - right here (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21774.msg739244#msg739244). Am I wrong to bring that sociological aspect into this? We disagreed on the mechanism, but agreed upon the effect.

Quote from: Roaring Biscuit! on August 10, 2009, 10:29:03 PM
It's basically reverse psychology, but fictionpuss seems to be interpreting memebomb here as an actual ideal, rather than what it is, which is a statement design to provoke a response, which then may lead to an ideal being reinforced, whether it agrees or disagrees with the original statement is dependent on the individual.

I think that when you have something which may or may not increase actual instances of domestic abuse, then you do have a responsibility to think it through -

I was hesitating to call a meme a meme, firstly because people are getting sick of it, and I'm a crowd pleaser, secondly because it seems it is confusing the situation.  There is a difference, between promoting the meme that 11/12 men hate women, as in the actual idea, and promoting the train of thought that might lead from reading the memebomb on a sticker.

On another note, if you have an issue, rather than doing what we are doing, which is arguing ourselves round in circles, because you think it will have a negative effect, and I don't, why don't we work towards a memebomb that accomplishes the same thing but with a lessened risk?


ok, what if we up the ridiculous:

"110% of men hate women. 2/3 women inwardly agree.  even the ones that aren't born yet."

now we have a memebomb that clearly isn't true, but might still generate the same "am I sexist douchebag" train of thought.

QuoteI'm not comfortable just washing my hands and saying "it's all just a sociological experiment".

past experience says otherwise   :wink:

I'm sorta ignoring the conformist reality thing for now because i can't be bothered to read it just yet.  I imagine it goes: our ideas about reality are based largely on our cultures ideas about reality, so our vision of reality conforms to other peoples, and what we believe about them.  So your saying that if enough people read and believe that it becomes true?

also:

QuoteAdvertising works. It uses similar techniques to burrow ideas into peoples minds. Why is it irrelevant?

it doesn't work even nearly as well as you apparently think.  you probably think sex sells as well don't you?

Is it just me, or is (iirc) Nigel's variant something that circumvents Fictionpuss' arguments?

If I remember correctly (I cba to go back and find it) it was something like:

QuoteYou think you deserve it, don't you? Stupid bitch.

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on August 10, 2009, 11:46:06 PM
Is it just me, or is (iirc) Nigel's variant something that circumvents Fictionpuss' arguments?

If I remember correctly (I cba to go back and find it) it was something like:

QuoteYou think you deserve it, don't you? Stupid bitch.

Here? (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21815.msg739474#msg739474) - "You secretly think you deserve it"

For me, it still has no out - by portraying it as a secret it becomes a belief which can live on as a low-level paranoia. Regardless of whether the individual reacts to it with initial disbelief or not - it would have most effect if it resurfaced when the individual was in a period of low self-esteem, such as in an abusive situation.

The 'out' is that it cause people to consider it. Our goal isn't to program people for or against misogyny, but to get people to think about their actions*.


* Personally, I don't like misogyny, but there are enough things that have been held as terribly disgusting at one time and then necessary later that I am unwilling to try to impose my personal distaste for things in general on others. Therefore, my goal here, and probably the goal of most people with memebombs, is to make people reconsider things, *not* to program them with personal pet beliefs.

Quote from: Roaring Biscuit! on August 10, 2009, 10:29:03 PM
"END THOUGHT CRIME; STOP THINKING"

is unlikely to stop people from thinking.

IM SORRY WHAT DID YOU SAY

I CANT READ

I STOPPED THINKING

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on August 10, 2009, 11:59:17 PM
The 'out' is that it cause people to consider it. Our goal isn't to program people for or against misogyny, but to get people to think about their actions*.


* Personally, I don't like misogyny, but there are enough things that have been held as terribly disgusting at one time and then necessary later that I am unwilling to try to impose my personal distaste for things in general on others.

:| FUCK misogyny. Fuck anything which, at best, has an unpredictable outcome with regards increasing or decreasing it.

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on August 10, 2009, 11:59:17 PM
Therefore, my goal here, and probably the goal of most people with memebombs, is to make people reconsider things, *not* to program them with personal pet beliefs.

I totally support the idea of memebombs. I think it's an awesome concept. As it stands though, I'd score the potential memebomb 8 for impact, and 3 for neutrality.

EDIT - that was dumb - everything has a potentially unpredictable outcome on anything else. I meant unpredictable in that there are arguments for and against whether that outcome will be positive or negative.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 01:35:14 PM

Quote from: Kai on August 10, 2009, 01:11:33 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it now: this is all symptoms of a deep seated mysognyny. Antifeminism, homophobia, many many of the aspects of fundamentalist politics, and certainly unequality between the sexes. The western world practically seeths with it.

[meme]11/12ths of men are women haters and 2/3rds of women subconsciously think they deserve it [/meme]

I don't disagree with you. One thing I don't like about that meme though is that it doesn't provide an out, and seems more likely to trap people into that mindset. Maybe add in a bit about in the study, for the age-group forty and above, 11/12ths of men are... ?

Older people with established life patterns and attitudes are less likely to be swayed, plus it gives younger people a target to avoid and to be pissed off about. It's hard to go wrong exploiting generational divide.

STFU NOOB.

11/12 PDers know you deserved it.

OMG

...


Okay, I said that statement because I thought it was a horrible little piece of horror mirth self referencing our own humor here and hitting close to the truth in some ways while being completely outrageous in others. I put [meme] around it because I figured some people (fictionpuss, I'm looking at you. stop it) would take it way too seriously instead of laughing in ways that only sound like screaming, which was the real intent. Or for it to just fall flat on its face. Or to piss off fred because she hates the word "meme".

With this, and the thread in T&S, I'm starting to feel like an unintentional troll.   :lulz: :oops: :x :roll: :lol:

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 12:06:30 AM

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on August 10, 2009, 11:59:17 PM
The 'out' is that it cause people to consider it. Our goal isn't to program people for or against misogyny, but to get people to think about their actions*.


* Personally, I don't like misogyny, but there are enough things that have been held as terribly disgusting at one time and then necessary later that I am unwilling to try to impose my personal distaste for things in general on others.

:| FUCK misogyny. Fuck anything which, at best, has an unpredictable outcome with regards increasing or decreasing it.

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on August 10, 2009, 11:59:17 PM
Therefore, my goal here, and probably the goal of most people with memebombs, is to make people reconsider things, *not* to program them with personal pet beliefs.

I totally support the idea of memebombs. I think it's an awesome concept. As it stands though, I'd score the potential memebomb 8 for impact, and 3 for neutrality.

EDIT - that was dumb - everything has a potentially unpredictable outcome on anything else. I meant unpredictable in that there are arguments for and against whether that outcome will be positive or negative.

So, fuck risk?

:lulz: :horrormirth:

:lulz: :horrormirth:

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:lulz: :horrormirth:

Quote from: yhnmzw on August 11, 2009, 04:00:24 AM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 12:06:30 AM

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on August 10, 2009, 11:59:17 PM
The 'out' is that it cause people to consider it. Our goal isn't to program people for or against misogyny, but to get people to think about their actions*.


* Personally, I don't like misogyny, but there are enough things that have been held as terribly disgusting at one time and then necessary later that I am unwilling to try to impose my personal distaste for things in general on others.

:| FUCK misogyny. Fuck anything which, at best, has an unpredictable outcome with regards increasing or decreasing it.

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on August 10, 2009, 11:59:17 PM
Therefore, my goal here, and probably the goal of most people with memebombs, is to make people reconsider things, *not* to program them with personal pet beliefs.

I totally support the idea of memebombs. I think it's an awesome concept. As it stands though, I'd score the potential memebomb 8 for impact, and 3 for neutrality.

EDIT - that was dumb - everything has a potentially unpredictable outcome on anything else. I meant unpredictable in that there are arguments for and against whether that outcome will be positive or negative.

So, fuck risk?

By your interpretation of my argument, we shouldn't even connect to the internet, lest a stray post about stamp collecting ends up completely melting the polar ice caps - an entirely unpredictable outcome.

But if I have a memebomb, and a reasonable suspicion that it may do more harm than good - in this case be an enabler for more misogynistic thought - then would I throw it anyway for lulz? Fuck no. Would I encourage anyone else to reconsider? Fuck yeah.

So it's not "fuck risk", it's "fuck risk when the payoff is low, and the risk is too high that someone will get hurt"

Quote from: fictionpussBut if I have a memebomb, and a reasonable suspicion that it may do more harm than good

I have the impression that many of us here have a different idea of what a reasonable suspicion is, as regards the matter at hand.

Quote from: yhnmzw on August 11, 2009, 05:53:46 AM

Quote from: fictionpussBut if I have a memebomb, and a reasonable suspicion that it may do more harm than good

I have the impression that many of us here have a different idea of what a reasonable suspicion is, as regards the matter at hand.

Most likely.

I thought for a while there was a danger that this might be turned into an active memebomb, but without that risk, my interest in arguing this quickly vanishes.

Quote from: yhnmzw on August 11, 2009, 04:00:24 AM
So, fuck risk?

:lulz: :horrormirth:

:lulz: :horrormirth:

:lulz: :horrormirth:

:lulz: :horrormirth:

:lulz: :horrormirth:

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:lulz: :horrormirth:

:lulz: :horrormirth:

:lulz: :horrormirth:

:lulz: :horrormirth:

:lulz: :horrormirth:

:lulz: :horrormirth:

Yeah, and fuck monopoly and scrabble, too

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:05:22 AM
I thought for a while there was a danger that this might be turned into an active memebomb, but without that risk, my interest in arguing this quickly vanishes.

http://principiadiscordia.com/memebombs/?action=show&id=4010

This thread is making me want to beat my wife, hate women, kill my parents, tie black and blue ribbons around trees, stop thinking and just mindlessly agree with everything I read.

oh...


oh holy shit...

I'm turning into........

A REPUBLICAN

~runs~

:facepalm: <- My reaction, upon reading the thread I started.

Also, "commit acts of terrorism, and microwave metal" is now a meme.  Upon reading this, you will commit acts of terrorism, and microwave metal.  Why?  Because meme is a magic word that makes you do what I want.

I just put a terrorist in a microwave.  Am I doing it right?





Also, for the slow ones:


WHAT YOU CALL "MEMETICS" IS JUST ANOTHER MODEL TRYING TO DESCRIBE HOW THE BRAIN WORKS.  IT'S JUST AS INNACURATE IN ITS DESCRIPTION AS ANY OTHER MODEL.  IN FACT, MEMETICS IS EVEN LESS ACCURATE THAN MANY MODELS, BECAUSE NO ONE HAS FOUND A WAY TO SEPARATE A "MEME" FROM "A COMMON IDEA PEOPLE SHARE."

Ooh, forks make sparks. 

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 01:08:09 PM
Also, for the slow ones:


WHAT YOU CALL "MEMETICS" IS JUST ANOTHER MODEL TRYING TO DESCRIBE HOW THE BRAIN WORKS.  IT'S JUST AS INNACURATE IN ITS DESCRIPTION AS ANY OTHER MODEL.  IN FACT, MEMETICS IS EVEN LESS ACCURATE THAN MANY MODELS, BECAUSE NO ONE HAS FOUND A WAY TO SEPARATE A "MEME" FROM "A COMMON IDEA PEOPLE SHARE."

Really? I always thought that memetics tried to describe how ideas replicated and what factors contributed to their fitness. The brain is considered a black box for all of this. If you've seen anyone try to use memetics to model how the brain works then I strongly expect that they're doing it completely wrong.

I'm not sure why separating "meme" from "a common idea people share" would be useful. For example, "gene" doesn't need to be separated from "common genetic sequences which people share" to have some utility.

I can show you a gene; can you show me a meme?

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:05:22 AM

Quote from: yhnmzw on August 11, 2009, 05:53:46 AM

Quote from: fictionpussBut if I have a memebomb, and a reasonable suspicion that it may do more harm than good

I have the impression that many of us here have a different idea of what a reasonable suspicion is, as regards the matter at hand.

Most likely.

I thought for a while there was a danger that this might be turned into an active memebomb, but without that risk, my interest in arguing this quickly vanishes.

I'm going to activate the fuck out of this memebomb.

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on August 11, 2009, 06:16:39 AM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:05:22 AM
I thought for a while there was a danger that this might be turned into an active memebomb, but without that risk, my interest in arguing this quickly vanishes.

http://principiadiscordia.com/memebombs/?action=show&id=4010

:mittens:

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 02:57:36 PM
I can show you a gene; can you show me a meme?

It's funny you should state that so stridently, since the definition of what a gene actually is, has undergone a continual evolution of its own.

But anyway.

I cannot show you an idea. I cannot show you emergence. Thus I cannot show you the results of an idea and emergence combined.

I'll grant that there isn't much of a science to prod and poke and test against yet - the nearest we have are the advertising/PR industries - it's entirely possible that they study memes and propagation strategies (or in their terminology, an ideavirus) and the success they find is an unrelated correlation. I just don't think that's very probable.

Have you read The Selfish Gene? If you haven't, you should go read it. You need to first understand where the hell the word it is you're using comes from so you stop using it haphazardly all over the place.

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on August 11, 2009, 06:16:39 AM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:05:22 AM
I thought for a while there was a danger that this might be turned into an active memebomb, but without that risk, my interest in arguing this quickly vanishes.

http://principiadiscordia.com/memebombs/?action=show&id=4010

8)

I'm engaging in mild hyperbole to make a point.

The meme-omancers made an analogy that memes were like viruses.  Unfortunately, people started running with that metaphor as if it were actual fact.  But the implications of this literalization means that there "are" tiny little ideas floating around, independent of humans, but needing them as hosts to breed more of themselves; that they "infect" their "hosts."

And that the host is essentially blameless for catching and spreading these ideas.



That last sentence is what I'm getting from your strenuous objections to the 11/12 - 2/3 memebomb; that people will see it, and be attacked by a vicious idea that will wrestle their consciousness and morals to the ground, and force them to act, slapping wives, girlfriends, sisters and mothers.  And then, when captured, they will say the meme out loud, and all in range will suddenly kick their grandmothers in the uterus.

But they're ultimately blameless -- the memebomb made them do it.




Incidentally, this is also why I find the ending of Poker Without Cards ridiculous.

Quote from: Kai on August 11, 2009, 03:32:32 PM
Have you read The Selfish Gene? If you haven't, you should go read it. You need to first understand where the hell the word it is you're using comes from so you stop using it haphazardly all over the place.

Yes I have. In the twelve years that have passed since then I've casually, but frequently, observed how they operate within myself and externally. I read it in parallel with this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679743898/o/qid=975965138/sr=2-3/stevenlevyhomepa), which provides an excellent grounding in emergence.

These two concepts have been central to my thought processes since then, and combining them together adds an extra dimension to the analysis of "memes".

Now you say I'm using the word haphazardly, but you haven't explained how you think I am misusing it.

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 03:36:44 PM
I'm engaging in mild hyperbole to make a point.

The meme-omancers made an analogy that memes were like viruses.  Unfortunately, people started running with that metaphor as if it were actual fact.  But the implications of this literalization means that there "are" tiny little ideas floating around, independent of humans, but needing them as hosts to breed more of themselves; that they "infect" their "hosts."

And that the host is essentially blameless for catching and spreading these ideas.

To me it's a little like saying that since LEGO blocks can be stuck together, then I'm just going to stick them in a box, and shake them around and expect a completed model to emerge.

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 03:36:44 PM
That last sentence is what I'm getting from your strenuous objections to the 11/12 - 2/3 memebomb; that people will see it, and be attacked by a vicious idea that will wrestle their consciousness and morals to the ground, and force them to act, slapping wives, girlfriends, sisters and mothers.  And then, when captured, they will say the meme out loud, and all in range will suddenly kick their grandmothers in the uterus.

But they're ultimately blameless -- the memebomb made them do it.

I think you might have been paying more attention to the strenuous mockery, and strawman construction, than to the words I actually wrote.

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 03:36:44 PM
Incidentally, this is also why I find the ending of Poker Without Cards ridiculous.

I'll have to take your word on that one. Reading Ben Mack/Love in that thread made me absolutely thankful that I didn't read any of his work.

No. Just no. Please do not start using Emergence poorly as well.

You're using a term ambiguously, making it a muddled mess, and no longer a term. The word is so overused in your speech it's near impossible to know what you're even talking about anymore. Much like when I say a word over and over and over out loud and it ends up sounding like gibberish.

Ah, forget it. 



Guess who's getting put on "ignore"?

Quote from: Kai on August 11, 2009, 03:59:57 PM
No. Just no. Please do not start using Emergence poorly as well.

I've been using it for over a decade, so I'm not 'starting' anything.

Quote from: Kai on August 11, 2009, 03:59:57 PM
You're using a term ambiguously, making it a muddled mess, and no longer a term. The word is so overused in your speech it's near impossible to know what you're even talking about anymore. Much like when I say a word over and over and over out loud and it ends up sounding like gibberish.

Then help me out - where am I using it in a confusing manner? If it's "so overused" in my speech, it should be easy to find an example in my post list.

You don't have to help me of course, but if my use is causing such anguish, then that would seem to be the logical solution.

Meh, this all sounds like the "art imitating life" vs. "life imitating art" debate.  A meme is supposed to reflect something that's already out there.  Sure, it can reinforce it with the truthiness of it, but it doesn't carry much power beyond that.

It's still the individual's choice whether or not to pick it up and make any use of it.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 03:57:37 PM

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 03:36:44 PM
That last sentence is what I'm getting from your strenuous objections to the 11/12 - 2/3 memebomb; that people will see it, and be attacked by a vicious idea that will wrestle their consciousness and morals to the ground, and force them to act, slapping wives, girlfriends, sisters and mothers.  And then, when captured, they will say the meme out loud, and all in range will suddenly kick their grandmothers in the uterus.

But they're ultimately blameless -- the memebomb made them do it.

I think you might have been paying more attention to the strenuous mockery, and strawman construction, than to the words I actually wrote.

Ahem...

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 09:01:30 PM

Quote from: Cramulus on August 10, 2009, 08:54:50 PM
We shouldn't get too hung up about the far reaching moral implications of certain statements unless you really think that language is mind control. And if you do, (cram wiggles his fingers, implying a magic spell) STOP THINKING THAT.  :fnord:

Why should I not think like that? Everything I've seen points to that conclusion

Jesus fucking christ.

Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on August 11, 2009, 06:16:39 AM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:05:22 AM
I thought for a while there was a danger that this might be turned into an active memebomb, but without that risk, my interest in arguing this quickly vanishes.

http://principiadiscordia.com/memebombs/?action=show&id=4010

http://principiadiscordia.com/memebombs/kwotes.pl?action=show&id=4013

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 04:32:05 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 03:57:37 PM

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 03:36:44 PM
That last sentence is what I'm getting from your strenuous objections to the 11/12 - 2/3 memebomb; that people will see it, and be attacked by a vicious idea that will wrestle their consciousness and morals to the ground, and force them to act, slapping wives, girlfriends, sisters and mothers.  And then, when captured, they will say the meme out loud, and all in range will suddenly kick their grandmothers in the uterus.

But they're ultimately blameless -- the memebomb made them do it.

I think you might have been paying more attention to the strenuous mockery, and strawman construction, than to the words I actually wrote.

Ahem...

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 09:01:30 PM

Quote from: Cramulus on August 10, 2009, 08:54:50 PM
We shouldn't get too hung up about the far reaching moral implications of certain statements unless you really think that language is mind control. And if you do, (cram wiggles his fingers, implying a magic spell) STOP THINKING THAT.  :fnord:

Why should I not think like that? Everything I've seen points to that conclusion

There is no contradiction here.

I think they work that way, I do not think I understand all the mechanisms by which they work - I do not profess the ability to predict them beyond anything but a crude approximation.

If you think you understand what an electron is, and how it interacts with its environment.. then obviously you can now tell me the winner of the next Superbowl?

My statement says that you believe a meme will control people's minds.


Your statement says you agree with that.



Now SHUT THE FUCK UP.

I propose a new meme.

The meme will be contained within the next set of quotation marks.

"The only way that fictionpuss can be correct about how memes work is if he leaves the Principiadiscordia.com forums and never comes back"

:cramstipated:

Fictionpuss, stop being a fucking wiener.
Nobody's gonna read that meme and say "wow you know, i'd really like to go beat the shit outta ma grammy now" and if they do, the seed was already there and they were on the verge of doing it anyway.

shut up. shut up. shut the fuck up.
your argument is so god damned boring and redundant it makes me wanna whack you with a whiffle bat. one what squeaks upon impact.

like so:

~squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak-a squeak!!~

butthorn.

i hate people who argue just to argue. even if they don't really believe the side they're arguing for. like my brother-in-law.

Quote from: Squid on August 11, 2009, 05:13:33 PM
Nobody's gonna read that meme and say "wow you know, i'd really like to go beat the shit outta ma grammy now" and if they do, the seed was already there and they were on the verge of doing it anyway.

This really reminds me of one of the last trolls we had. Who was that? somebody who took things all too literally

Maybe I'm too tired because I forget.

I think it was Fictionpuss.

edit-
PS- remember that guy?

Quote from: Squid on August 11, 2009, 05:24:49 PM
I think it was Fictionpuss.

edit-
PS- remember that guy?

Same person? I don't think so.

Want to say it was a Daruko account.

sorry Kai, i was being facetious  :p

Quote from: Squid on August 11, 2009, 05:28:54 PM
sorry Kai, i was being facetious  :p

Must just be that tired.

 :lulz:

take nap

Quote from: Squid on August 11, 2009, 05:28:54 PM
sorry Kai, i was being facetious  :p

Guess which word fictionpuss is about to use 50 times in the next 7 posts, incorrectly.

I'm going to send Kai a hypnotic email to make him sleep.  Its infected with sleep memes too.

Oh, that's just.....Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 04:59:41 PM
My statement says that you believe a meme will control people's minds.


Your statement says you agree with that.



Now SHUT THE FUCK UP.

So because electrons will play a part in determining who will win the next Superbowl, we shouldn't study electrons?

Of course not. That would be ridiculous. I'm talking about electrons, and you keep getting mad at me about the Superbowl.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 05:39:18 PM

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 04:59:41 PM
My statement says that you believe a meme will control people's minds.


Your statement says you agree with that.



Now SHUT THE FUCK UP.

So because electrons will play a part in determining who will win the next Superbowl, we shouldn't study electrons?

Of course not. That would be ridiculous. I'm talking about electrons, and you keep getting mad at me about the Superbowl.

Arg.

Fuck this, I'm taking a nap.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 05:39:18 PM

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 04:59:41 PM
My statement says that you believe a meme will control people's minds.


Your statement says you agree with that.



Now SHUT THE FUCK UP.

So because electrons will play a part in determining who will win the next Superbowl, we shouldn't study electrons?

Of course not. That would be ridiculous. I'm talking about electrons, and you keep getting mad at me about the Superbowl.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2552/3811315083_671d6cb77a.jpg)

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 04:06:34 PM

Quote from: Kai on August 11, 2009, 03:59:57 PM
No. Just no. Please do not start using Emergence poorly as well.

I've been using it for over a decade, so I'm not 'starting' anything.

QFT

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 05:39:18 PM

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 04:59:41 PM
My statement says that you believe a meme will control people's minds.


Your statement says you agree with that.



Now SHUT THE FUCK UP.

So because electrons will play a part in determining who will win the next Superbowl, we shouldn't study electrons?

Of course not. That would be ridiculous. I'm talking about electrons, and you keep getting mad at me about the Superbowl.

Are you really not getting it?

When I claimed you believed that you think memes control your mind, you accused me of not reading what you posted, but rather I was only paying attention to the supposed strawman argument of others.

I showed you, very concisely, that you have stated in this very thread that you think language is mind control.


As far as electrons and the superbowl go: since the equations involve probability, you obviously don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21837.0

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 05:50:23 PM
Are you really not getting it?

When I claimed you believed that you think memes control your mind, you accused me of not reading what you posted, but rather I was only paying attention to the supposed strawman argument of others.

I showed you, very concisely, that you have stated in this very thread that you think language is mind control.

Maybe we have a different understanding of what mind control is? If you mean that in the sense of NLP or that you can make someone kill their granny with a rogue-meme, then no - that would be absolutely retarded - and I have never stated anything of that nature.

But do I think that every input we receive effects our mind in ways we have only barely begun to explore - then yes - I would think that self-explanatory.

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 05:50:23 PM
As far as electrons and the superbowl go: since the equations involve probability, you obviously don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Since I perceive the effects of ideas and memes as working in terms of probability - such as "survival of the fittest" describes probability, not a guarantee - then you may see why I perceive the analogy I made as being particularly apt.

STOP CONFLATING UNRELATED THINGS, FUCKHOLE.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:04:18 PM

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 05:50:23 PM
Are you really not getting it?

When I claimed you believed that you think memes control your mind, you accused me of not reading what you posted, but rather I was only paying attention to the supposed strawman argument of others.

I showed you, very concisely, that you have stated in this very thread that you think language is mind control.

Maybe we have a different understanding of what mind control is? If you mean that in the sense of NLP or that you can make someone kill their granny with a rogue-meme, then no - that would be absolutely retarded - and I have never stated anything of that nature.

Yes you fucking did, dipshit:

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 09:01:30 PM

Quote from: Cramulus on August 10, 2009, 08:54:50 PM
We shouldn't get too hung up about the far reaching moral implications of certain statements unless you really think that language is mind control. And if you do, (cram wiggles his fingers, implying a magic spell) STOP THINKING THAT.  :fnord:

Why should I not think like that? Everything I've seen points to that conclusion

Quote from: Cainad on August 11, 2009, 06:00:48 PM
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21837.0

:lulz:

:thanks: I'm a man of my word.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:04:18 PM
Maybe we have a different understanding of what mind control is? If you mean that in the sense of NLP or that you can make someone kill their granny with a rogue-meme, then no - that would be absolutely retarded - and I have never stated anything of that nature.

But do I think that every input we receive effects our mind in ways we have only barely begun to explore - then yes - I would think that self-explanatory.

Yes, every input.  Which reduces the whole "meme" idea to ashes.  Because there is no discernable difference between the impact of a "meme" and a sharp poke to the eye or a moldy ham sandwhich. 

The moldy ham sandwhich is going to condition me to check my bread in the future before I make a sandwhich.
A sharp poke to the eye might cause me to be wary in certain situation.
A "meme" on a sticker may make me think for a second, but unless it is some earth-shattering revelation, it is going to have hardly any significant impact on my day to day life. 

This thread...is awesomely awful.
And fictionpuss...is fucked up. You seem to only apply this logic to one memebomb, and refute it as applied to every ad absurdum counterargument brought against it in this thread... Real logical, you are.

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 05:35:50 PM

Quote from: Squid on August 11, 2009, 05:28:54 PM
sorry Kai, i was being facetious  :p

Guess which word fictionpuss is about to use 50 times in the next 7 posts, incorrectly.

Being.

Ok, in light of RWHN's post, I will amend my statement.

One of the reasons that the movement of an electron won't tell you who won a football game (read as: why quantum effects don't have noticable experiential phenomena) is decoherence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence).  

In RWHN's post, he draws a neat parallel in regards to memes; namely, both analogies provided by fictionpuss were bullshit.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 04:06:34 PM

Quote from: Kai on August 11, 2009, 03:59:57 PM
No. Just no. Please do not start using Emergence poorly as well.

I've been using it for over a decade, so I'm not 'starting' anything.

Yeah, you've been using it poorly this entire time.

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 06:06:09 PM
STOP CONFLATING UNRELATED THINGS, FUCKHOLE.

This. Succinct statement of what I've been trying to say the whole time.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 11, 2009, 06:24:30 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:04:18 PM
Maybe we have a different understanding of what mind control is? If you mean that in the sense of NLP or that you can make someone kill their granny with a rogue-meme, then no - that would be absolutely retarded - and I have never stated anything of that nature.

But do I think that every input we receive effects our mind in ways we have only barely begun to explore - then yes - I would think that self-explanatory.

Yes, every input.  Which reduces the whole "meme" idea to ashes.  Because there is no discernable difference between the impact of a "meme" and a sharp poke to the eye or a moldy ham sandwhich. 

The moldy ham sandwhich is going to condition me to check my bread in the future before I make a sandwhich.
A sharp poke to the eye might cause me to be wary in certain situation.
A "meme" on a sticker may make me think for a second, but unless it is some earth-shattering revelation, it is going to have hardly any significant impact on my day to day life. 

Well would you say we should throw out the concept of "memes" entirely and start again? That we should not try to observe the anatomy of a meme and see if we can use it to some affect?

What level of discussion of memetics can I participate in, without starting a flame-war?

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:47:28 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 11, 2009, 06:24:30 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:04:18 PM
Maybe we have a different understanding of what mind control is? If you mean that in the sense of NLP or that you can make someone kill their granny with a rogue-meme, then no - that would be absolutely retarded - and I have never stated anything of that nature.

But do I think that every input we receive effects our mind in ways we have only barely begun to explore - then yes - I would think that self-explanatory.

Yes, every input.  Which reduces the whole "meme" idea to ashes.  Because there is no discernable difference between the impact of a "meme" and a sharp poke to the eye or a moldy ham sandwhich. 

The moldy ham sandwhich is going to condition me to check my bread in the future before I make a sandwhich.
A sharp poke to the eye might cause me to be wary in certain situation.
A "meme" on a sticker may make me think for a second, but unless it is some earth-shattering revelation, it is going to have hardly any significant impact on my day to day life. 

Well would you say we should throw out the concept of "memes" entirely and start again? That we should not try to observe the anatomy of a meme and see if we can use it to some affect?

What level of discussion of memetics can I participate in, without starting a flame-war?

Do you mean Macro or Micro Memetics?

Quote from: [uV*] on August 11, 2009, 06:31:30 PM
This thread...is awesomely awful.
And fictionpuss...is fucked up. You seem to only apply this logic to one memebomb, and refute it as applied to every ad absurdum counterargument brought against it in this thread... Real logical, you are.

I think I laid out the groundwork quite clearly for why I had a problem with that particular meme. What's the point of introducing an absurd counterargument, when my working is shown such that it can be attacked directly, and I never extended my own thinking to anywhere near the levels of "read this and you'll kick your granny" which I assume you're referring to?

Quote from: A Pesky Nonvoting Screeching on August 11, 2009, 06:54:26 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:47:28 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 11, 2009, 06:24:30 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:04:18 PM
Maybe we have a different understanding of what mind control is? If you mean that in the sense of NLP or that you can make someone kill their granny with a rogue-meme, then no - that would be absolutely retarded - and I have never stated anything of that nature.

But do I think that every input we receive effects our mind in ways we have only barely begun to explore - then yes - I would think that self-explanatory.

Yes, every input.  Which reduces the whole "meme" idea to ashes.  Because there is no discernable difference between the impact of a "meme" and a sharp poke to the eye or a moldy ham sandwhich. 

The moldy ham sandwhich is going to condition me to check my bread in the future before I make a sandwhich.
A sharp poke to the eye might cause me to be wary in certain situation.
A "meme" on a sticker may make me think for a second, but unless it is some earth-shattering revelation, it is going to have hardly any significant impact on my day to day life. 

Well would you say we should throw out the concept of "memes" entirely and start again? That we should not try to observe the anatomy of a meme and see if we can use it to some affect?

What level of discussion of memetics can I participate in, without starting a flame-war?

Do you mean Macro or Micro Memetics?

I'm not convinced that there is a meaningful distinction to be made, I think you would have trouble drawing a neat line between them anyway. But you knew that already.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:47:28 PM
What level of discussion of memetics can I participate in, without starting a flame-war?

If you want an honest answer, don't post about, or even use the word "meme" for a month.

Make multiple entertaining and intelligent posts in the meantime, showing us what a cool person you are.

Then, after we've more or less decided you're not as much of a fuckbag as we thought you were, start a thread with one small, constructive idea regarding how memes are modeled.


That might work.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:55:44 PM

Quote from: [uV*] on August 11, 2009, 06:31:30 PM
This thread...is awesomely awful.
And fictionpuss...is fucked up. You seem to only apply this logic to one memebomb, and refute it as applied to every ad absurdum counterargument brought against it in this thread... Real logical, you are.

I think I laid out the groundwork quite clearly for why I had a problem with that particular meme.

Yes, and it has been repeatedly explained why the rest of us think you are wrong.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:55:44 PM
What's the point of introducing an absurd counterargument, when my working is shown such that it can be attacked directly, and I never extended my own thinking to anywhere near the levels of "read this and you'll kick your granny" which I assume you're referring to?

YES. YOU. COCKING. DID.

YOU DELUSIONAL RETARDED INCONSISTENT MORONIC PEDANTIC WRONG FUCKWIT CHUMBUCKET ASSGUZZLER FUNGAL EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING

FOR THE THIRD FUCKING TIME:

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 09:01:30 PM

Quote from: Cramulus on August 10, 2009, 08:54:50 PM
We shouldn't get too hung up about the far reaching moral implications of certain statements unless you really think that language is mind control. And if you do, (cram wiggles his fingers, implying a magic spell) STOP THINKING THAT.  :fnord:

Why should I not think like that? Everything I've seen points to that conclusion

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:47:28 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 11, 2009, 06:24:30 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:04:18 PM
Maybe we have a different understanding of what mind control is? If you mean that in the sense of NLP or that you can make someone kill their granny with a rogue-meme, then no - that would be absolutely retarded - and I have never stated anything of that nature.

But do I think that every input we receive effects our mind in ways we have only barely begun to explore - then yes - I would think that self-explanatory.

Yes, every input.  Which reduces the whole "meme" idea to ashes.  Because there is no discernable difference between the impact of a "meme" and a sharp poke to the eye or a moldy ham sandwhich. 

The moldy ham sandwhich is going to condition me to check my bread in the future before I make a sandwhich.
A sharp poke to the eye might cause me to be wary in certain situation.
A "meme" on a sticker may make me think for a second, but unless it is some earth-shattering revelation, it is going to have hardly any significant impact on my day to day life. 

Well would you say we should throw out the concept of "memes" entirely and start again? That we should not try to observe the anatomy of a meme and see if we can use it to some affect?

What level of discussion of memetics can I participate in, without starting a flame-war?

Umm, I'm not telling you what you should or should not do.  I don't care.  I'm just another asshat on these boards expressing his opinion about stuff.  I'm just giving my take.  Do with it as you will.  

Quote from: Cainad on August 11, 2009, 06:59:56 PM

YES. YOU. COCKING. DID.

YOU DELUSIONAL RETARDED INCONSISTENT MORONIC PEDANTIC WRONG FUCKWIT CHUMBUCKET ASSGUZZLER FUNGAL EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING

FOR THE THIRD FUCKING TIME:

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 09:01:30 PM

Quote from: Cramulus on August 10, 2009, 08:54:50 PM
We shouldn't get too hung up about the far reaching moral implications of certain statements unless you really think that language is mind control. And if you do, (cram wiggles his fingers, implying a magic spell) STOP THINKING THAT.  :fnord:

Why should I not think like that? Everything I've seen points to that conclusion

stolen for Sig  :lulz:

Quote from: Cainad on August 11, 2009, 06:59:56 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:55:44 PM

Quote from: [uV*] on August 11, 2009, 06:31:30 PM
This thread...is awesomely awful.
And fictionpuss...is fucked up. You seem to only apply this logic to one memebomb, and refute it as applied to every ad absurdum counterargument brought against it in this thread... Real logical, you are.

I think I laid out the groundwork quite clearly for why I had a problem with that particular meme.

Yes, and it has been repeatedly explained why the rest of us think you are wrong.

In terms of "granny kicking" not in terms that I actually used.

Quote from: Cainad on August 11, 2009, 06:59:56 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:55:44 PM
What's the point of introducing an absurd counterargument, when my working is shown such that it can be attacked directly, and I never extended my own thinking to anywhere near the levels of "read this and you'll kick your granny" which I assume you're referring to?

YES. YOU. COCKING. DID.

YOU DELUSIONAL RETARDED INCONSISTENT MORONIC PEDANTIC WRONG FUCKWIT CHUMBUCKET ASSGUZZLER FUNGAL EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING

FOR THE THIRD FUCKING TIME:

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 10, 2009, 09:01:30 PM

Quote from: Cramulus on August 10, 2009, 08:54:50 PM
We shouldn't get too hung up about the far reaching moral implications of certain statements unless you really think that language is mind control. And if you do, (cram wiggles his fingers, implying a magic spell) STOP THINKING THAT.  :fnord:

Why should I not think like that? Everything I've seen points to that conclusion

And I've already admitted that I made a mistake and misunderstood the connotation of what "mind control" means here. In your defence, that's buried under pages of retarded bullshit.

Quote from: LMNO on August 11, 2009, 06:58:33 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:47:28 PM
What level of discussion of memetics can I participate in, without starting a flame-war?

If you want an honest answer, don't post about, or even use the word "meme" for a month.

I'll give it a try, not for science, but for the memes.

Starting now.

I hope you are more successful than Lysergic. 

Cool.

im kinda confused at what different definitions of mind control are kicking around here.

this topic is now about definitions of mindcontrol.


here is mine

Mindcontrol: to control the mind of another being. where the 'mind' is a human one and control is at least 80%

I just do whatever the bottle tells me. 

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 11, 2009, 07:14:04 PM
I hope you are more successful than Lysergic. 

this should be easier to do than posting only in images,

but in this case it probably just increases the chance some other word will be ass raped in its place

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:57:40 PM

Quote from: A Pesky Nonvoting Screeching on August 11, 2009, 06:54:26 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:47:28 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 11, 2009, 06:24:30 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:04:18 PM
Maybe we have a different understanding of what mind control is? If you mean that in the sense of NLP or that you can make someone kill their granny with a rogue-meme, then no - that would be absolutely retarded - and I have never stated anything of that nature.

But do I think that every input we receive effects our mind in ways we have only barely begun to explore - then yes - I would think that self-explanatory.

Yes, every input.  Which reduces the whole "meme" idea to ashes.  Because there is no discernable difference between the impact of a "meme" and a sharp poke to the eye or a moldy ham sandwhich. 

The moldy ham sandwhich is going to condition me to check my bread in the future before I make a sandwhich.
A sharp poke to the eye might cause me to be wary in certain situation.
A "meme" on a sticker may make me think for a second, but unless it is some earth-shattering revelation, it is going to have hardly any significant impact on my day to day life. 

Well would you say we should throw out the concept of "memes" entirely and start again? That we should not try to observe the anatomy of a meme and see if we can use it to some affect?

What level of discussion of memetics can I participate in, without starting a flame-war?

Do you mean Macro or Micro Memetics?

I'm not convinced that there is a meaningful distinction to be made, I think you would have trouble drawing a neat line between them anyway. But you knew that already.

What the FUCK does "macro or micro memetics" even fucking mean? Srsly. You don't define your words, you don't regulate your terms, you don't do anything that would actually help someone else understand what the hell you're talking about. All you have been doing is assuming everyone has perfect clear understanding of everything you say, and anything otherwise would reflect poorly on their intelligence, rather than on your (lack of) ability to communicate.

Quote from: Kai on August 11, 2009, 07:20:56 PM
All you have been doing is assuming everyone has perfect clear understanding of everything you say, and anything otherwise would reflect poorly on their intelligence,

Apologies if it comes across that way, it certainly doesn't reflect anything I hold to be true internally.

Quote from: Kai on August 11, 2009, 07:20:56 PM
rather than on your (lack of) ability to communicate.

I'm aware of this deficiency - it's a fairly basic life-skill to be missing. I'm not going to stop trying to communicate more effectively - if this bothers you then I'd advise ignoring me in the meantime.

maybe you should start by defining your terms then.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:57:40 PM

Quote from: A Pesky Nonvoting Screeching on August 11, 2009, 06:54:26 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:47:28 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on August 11, 2009, 06:24:30 PM

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 06:04:18 PM
Maybe we have a different understanding of what mind control is? If you mean that in the sense of NLP or that you can make someone kill their granny with a rogue-meme, then no - that would be absolutely retarded - and I have never stated anything of that nature.

But do I think that every input we receive effects our mind in ways we have only barely begun to explore - then yes - I would think that self-explanatory.

Yes, every input.  Which reduces the whole "meme" idea to ashes.  Because there is no discernable difference between the impact of a "meme" and a sharp poke to the eye or a moldy ham sandwhich. 

The moldy ham sandwhich is going to condition me to check my bread in the future before I make a sandwhich.
A sharp poke to the eye might cause me to be wary in certain situation.
A "meme" on a sticker may make me think for a second, but unless it is some earth-shattering revelation, it is going to have hardly any significant impact on my day to day life. 

Well would you say we should throw out the concept of "memes" entirely and start again? That we should not try to observe the anatomy of a meme and see if we can use it to some affect?

What level of discussion of memetics can I participate in, without starting a flame-war?

Do you mean Macro or Micro Memetics?

I'm not convinced that there is a meaningful distinction to be made, I think you would have trouble drawing a neat line between them anyway. But you knew that already.

Of course I knew that. I'm the one that fucking pointed it out to you.

Quote from: Kai on August 11, 2009, 07:34:00 PM
maybe you should start by defining your terms then.

Is that the thing which involves reading a lot and learning existing terms before feeling entitled to have an opinion, instead of just throwing words together which kind of look like they may fit, and then seeing what happens?

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 11, 2009, 07:37:22 PM

Quote from: Kai on August 11, 2009, 07:34:00 PM
maybe you should start by defining your terms then.

Is that the thing which involves reading a lot and learning existing terms before feeling entitled to have an opinion, instead of just throwing words together which kind of look like they may fit, and then seeing what happens?

No.

This is the thing where you figure out what the fuck you mean by the words you use and not assume everyone understand that meaning outright, so you formally define your terms, very much like I did in the thread in T&S. Do I really have to spell this shit out for you?

And yes, you should read a lot and figure out how other people use words. And yes, you should learn how to communicate properly. I'm giving you immediate advice here. Remember what Ruzaro....Ruruzerar.....I'm sorry, I can't remember your name right now, but how R- did in his excellent thread.

Why are you guys wasting your valuable time and effort arguing with FP, anyway? He's either trolling or stupid, and either way you're not getting anywhere.

Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on August 11, 2009, 08:04:40 PM
Why are you guys wasting your valuable time and effort arguing with FP, anyway? He's either trolling or stupid, and either way you're not getting anywhere.

It's a big shit sandwich, and everyone's gotta do their part...



...by shooting it with an assault rifle.

How about a flamethrower?

Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on August 11, 2009, 08:04:40 PM
Why are you guys wasting your valuable time and effort arguing with FP, anyway? He's either trolling or stupid, and either way you're not getting anywhere.

It's kinda fun because I don't feel obligated to play nice, I can speak via frusteration.

Quote from: Kai on August 11, 2009, 08:13:53 PM

Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on August 11, 2009, 08:04:40 PM
Why are you guys wasting your valuable time and effort arguing with FP, anyway? He's either trolling or stupid, and either way you're not getting anywhere.

It's kinda fun because I don't feel obligated to play nice, I can speak via frusteration.

Either way, I feel like I'm learning a lot, so that would make it a win/win.

Quote from: Kai on August 11, 2009, 05:23:09 PM

Quote from: Squid on August 11, 2009, 05:13:33 PM
Nobody's gonna read that meme and say "wow you know, i'd really like to go beat the shit outta ma grammy now" and if they do, the seed was already there and they were on the verge of doing it anyway.

This really reminds me of one of the last trolls we had. Who was that? somebody who took things all too literally

Maybe I'm too tired because I forget.

The Lamanite? (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=13141.0)

(http://www.ethicalshopper.com/files/imagecache/medium_fig/files/images/greenhealth_03_pledge.jpg)

Quote from: Rod Stewart on August 11, 2009, 07:17:11 PM
I just do whatever the bottle tells me. 

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: (we need a drunk smiley)

oh come on iason, this one's fun!

is fictionpuss still arguing that memetics is like hardsell advertising, and hardsell advertising works?

Quote from: [uV*] on August 11, 2009, 09:42:57 PM
oh come on iason, this one's fun!

I have honestly not read any of his posts all the way through. I usually get about halfway through and shout, "OMG, just shut the fuck up already. No one cares!!!"   

:crankey:

Quote from: Iason Ouabache on August 12, 2009, 01:05:25 AM

Quote from: [uV*] on August 11, 2009, 09:42:57 PM
oh come on iason, this one's fun!

I have honestly not read any of his posts all the way through. I usually get about halfway through and shout, "OMG, just shut the fuck up already. No one cares!!!"   

:crankey:

Yeah, this.

(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk61/fnord_photo/roflbot-YjFD.jpg?t=1250041965)

(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk61/fnord_photo/roflbot-09Gk.jpg?t=1250042137)

I am starting to really regret saying that.

if the meme will cause men to hate women, imagine the effects it will have combined with a picture :evil:

Quote from: fomenter on August 12, 2009, 02:56:18 AM
(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk61/fnord_photo/roflbot-YjFD.jpg?t=1250041965)

(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk61/fnord_photo/roflbot-09Gk.jpg?t=1250042137)

You are an awful man, fomenter. :lulz: :mittens:

Quote from: Iason Ouabache on August 12, 2009, 01:05:25 AM

Quote from: [uV*] on August 11, 2009, 09:42:57 PM
oh come on iason, this one's fun!

I have honestly not read any of his posts all the way through. I usually get about halfway through and shout, "OMG, just shut the fuck up already. No one cares!!!"   

:crankey:

His asstardery and chronic wrongness motivated me to make a sheet of stickers that say horrible things. He can't be all bad!

As funny and shock factor as the meme is, it makes me sad to look at a battered woman.

I think it's better without the picture.

Quote from: Cainad on August 12, 2009, 05:11:20 AM
His asstardery and chronic wrongness motivated me to make a sheet of stickers that say horrible things. He can't be all bad!

Wow! Impressionable! Incidentally, did you hear the latest about MJ committing suicide (http://jech.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/57/4/238)?

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 12, 2009, 05:28:07 AM

Quote from: Cainad on August 12, 2009, 05:11:20 AM
His asstardery and chronic wrongness motivated me to make a sheet of stickers that say horrible things. He can't be all bad!

Wow! Impressionable! Incidentally, did you hear the latest about MJ committing suicide (http://jech.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/57/4/238)?

Hey.

Stop failing.

Jesus H Christ.

Quote from: fictionpuss on August 12, 2009, 05:28:07 AM

Quote from: Cainad on August 12, 2009, 05:11:20 AM
His asstardery and chronic wrongness motivated me to make a sheet of stickers that say horrible things. He can't be all bad!

Wow! Impressionable! Incidentally, did you hear the latest about MJ committing suicide (http://jech.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/57/4/238)?

Durr, I can't read it, Bob... wussit say?
  \
:joshua:



It says it's time to eat all the candy in the medicine cabinet that mom says we can't have! Wheee!
          /
:retard:

(http://www.roflmachine.com/fun/bump.jpg)

Just finished reviewing this thread, and I'm shocked by all the controversy this called.
"11/12 men secretly hate women" does no more to encourage misogyny than "Every year 15 million children die of hunger" promotes starvation.

That said, fomenter's images struck me as a tad maudlin. I think the text can speak for itself.

I really love reading through threads like this.