Not only does the new heath insurance reform bill fail to provide a public option, apparently it also requires every American to get health insurance, whether they can afford it or not.
Congratulations to those executives who will get in on the new ground floor of selling cut rate insurance that provides no actual benefit to america's poor, just so the politicians can claim everyone has health insurance.
I believe this is also known as "The Massachussetts Plan".
Quote from: LMNO on September 22, 2009, 07:37:48 PM
I believe this is also known as "The Massachussetts Plan".
Sometimes I laugh until I can't stop screaming.
Who called it? :lulz:
:lulz:
obama announced this in his speech the other week, but nobody was talking about this part, they were all too focused on the "YOU LIE" hoopla.
He passed it off subtly, quickly dismissing objections by citing that most states already require you to have car insurance.
it does demonstrate an elegant self reflexivity. Obama defined the failure of the current system in terms of how many people don't have insurance. Make it illegal to be uninsured = problem solved! Now you can't point at the 44 million americans that don't have health care!
this is really an excellent illustration of the law of eristic escalation
IMPOSITION OF ORDER = ESCALATION OF DISORDER
Quote from: Cramulus on September 22, 2009, 08:32:59 PM
:lulz:
obama announced this in his speech the other week, but nobody was talking about this part, they were all too focused on the "YOU LIE" hoopla.
He passed it off subtly, quickly dismissing objections by citing that most states already require you to have car insurance.
it does demonstrate an elegant self reflexivity. Obama defined the failure of the current system in terms of how many people don't have insurance. Make it illegal to be uninsured = problem solved! Now you can't point at the 44 million americans that don't have health care!
this is really an excellent illustration of the law of eristic escalation
IMPOSITION OF ORDER = ESCALATION OF DISORDER
I refer to that as "LMNO's Dictum".
I love this century.
What did people expect? If the government gets involved, they make mandates... its how they work.
I started getting my Sunday-morning-show-instigated-Tourett's again this Sunday while Obama was arguing with George Snuffalupogus about this. Poor George--he just kept frowning deeper and deeper.
I hate this century.
but... but... they said it would be FREE..... FREE heath care.... that means we don't have to pay for it..... now its mandatory that we pay for coverage it whether or not we need or want it????
yay government :lulz:
Anyone else see how this new "Bakus" (sp?) plan has stuff in it that doesn't even take effect until 2013?
:lulz:
Quote from: fomenter on September 22, 2009, 08:54:49 PM
but... but... they said it would be FREE..... FREE heath care.... that means we don't have to pay for it..... now its mandatory that we pay for coverage it whether or not we need or want it????
yay government :lulz:
But you do still have your sammich, right? :wink:
IIRC the argument is that some corporations are gaming the system by not giving their employees health care even though they can afford it
so now everybody has to has it, thereby keeping the corporations honest
and for those that can't afford it, Obama said there will be a cheap federally funded option (what happened to that?), but that less than 5% of americans will qualify for it anyway so people shouldn't get their heckles up about it.
Well, the part that's shit is the people who have to fund 15% of their fucking salaries and make 66K a year for their health care. Whether they use the health care or not.
Unless I'm getting my figures wrong.
Quote from: Cramulus on September 22, 2009, 09:00:55 PM
IIRC the argument is that some corporations are gaming the system by not giving their employees health care even though they can afford it
so now everybody has to has it, thereby keeping the corporations honest
and for those that can't afford it, Obama said there will be a cheap federally funded option (what happened to that?), but that less than 5% of americans will qualify for it anyway so people shouldn't get their heckles up about it.
Yeah... and if we don't have Universal Insurance for everyone from the government (which due to dumbasses appears out of the question), then the only way to get costs under control is make everyone have insurance, regular doctor visits and keep serious ailments to as few people as possible.
Its ironic that the so called 'Conservatives/Libertarians' are more worried about a federal program that offers insurance than the federal government acting in an Authoritarian manner demanding that you GO GET health insurance. America, the country of dumb.
5% of Americans?
COMMUNISM! DEATH PANELS! OBAMA WANTS TO KILL YOUR GRANDMA!
Well, at least you guys know one thing for sure, now. Obama does not have the balls to stand up against the wingnuts, either based on principle or even wounded ego (even if he is in the pocket of pharamceuticals and insurance companies, in his position I'd be tempted to make the bill include more clauses orientated towards the public option - just to show the bastards I couldn't be intimidated by them).
So next time the rich and powerful and not especially caring for the democratic process want something out of Obama, guess what is going to happen? That's right, crazies out of the closet, talking about incipient tyranny and socialism, with pre-made signs, bused in to protest by astro-turfing faux grass roots organisations.
The Republic and liberal democracy = pwned, 169%
:x :argh!: :cry: :evilmad: :horrormirth:
Quote from: Jenne on September 22, 2009, 08:50:48 PM
I started getting my Sunday-morning-show-instigated-Tourett's again this Sunday while Obama was arguing with George Snuffalupogus about this. Poor George--he just kept frowning deeper and deeper.
I hate this century.
You just need to see the humor in Doom.
Quote from: Cain on September 22, 2009, 09:05:50 PM
Well, at least you guys know one thing for sure, now. Obama does not have the balls slightest desire or reason to stand up against the wingnuts,
Fixed for The Horrible Truth.
What are they going to do to people who don't pay for health insurance? Take away their license to health?
How do they collect premiums?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 22, 2009, 09:08:43 PM
Quote from: Jenne on September 22, 2009, 08:50:48 PM
I started getting my Sunday-morning-show-instigated-Tourett's again this Sunday while Obama was arguing with George Snuffalupogus about this. Poor George--he just kept frowning deeper and deeper.
I hate this century.
You just need to see the humor in Doom.
I cannae do it, Cap'n. I've given it all I got! There's nae more!
Quote from: Nigel on September 22, 2009, 09:13:06 PM
What are they going to do to people who don't pay for health insurance? Take away their license to health?
How do they collect premiums?
Garnish their wages? I don't remember how this would work except this is where George Snuffy and Obama went off on each other--about how much of a TAX it is vs. NOT a tax...I think George was winning that one, though he wasn't too happy about it.
Quote from: Nigel on September 22, 2009, 09:13:06 PM
What are they going to do to people who don't pay for health insurance? Take away their license to health?
How do they collect premiums?
:lulz:
"We're sorry you have been sentenced to be dead for the next three months, then provide proof of insurance before you can be resuscitated"
Quote from: Nigel on September 22, 2009, 09:13:06 PM
What are they going to do to people who don't pay for health insurance? Take away their license to health?
How do they collect premiums?
Well, let's see...If you have kids, and you don't provide them with health insurance, I guess they'd call that neglect, and whisk your kids off to some foster hell for "their own good".
Or, if it's just you, they'd fine you. Guess what happens when you can't pay a fine? Oh, yes...you go to the county farm, or worse, until the fine is paid off at a rate of $100/24 hour day. When you get out, you are of course out of work and broke, so I guess you won't be affording insurance, and back you go.
And the band played on.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 22, 2009, 09:16:41 PM
Quote from: Nigel on September 22, 2009, 09:13:06 PM
What are they going to do to people who don't pay for health insurance? Take away their license to health?
How do they collect premiums?
Well, let's see...If you have kids, and you don't provide them with health insurance, I guess they'd call that neglect, and whisk your kids off to some foster hell for "their own good".
Or, if it's just you, they'd fine you. Guess what happens when you can't pay a fine? Oh, yes...you go to the county farm, or worse, until the fine is paid off at a rate of $100/24 hour day. When you get out, you are of course out of work and broke, so I guess you won't be affording insurance, and back you go.
And the band played on.
HA! I hadn't thought about the neglect angle!
Quote from: Jenne on September 22, 2009, 09:13:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 22, 2009, 09:08:43 PM
Quote from: Jenne on September 22, 2009, 08:50:48 PM
I started getting my Sunday-morning-show-instigated-Tourett's again this Sunday while Obama was arguing with George Snuffalupogus about this. Poor George--he just kept frowning deeper and deeper.
I hate this century.
You just need to see the humor in Doom.
I cannae do it, Cap'n. I've given it all I got! There's nae more!
There's always more. Laugh til it hurts. Laugh til your guts bleed. Laugh til the distressed people around you call the police. Laugh til they slam the door shut and start talking about long-term treatment options.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 22, 2009, 09:16:41 PM
Quote from: Nigel on September 22, 2009, 09:13:06 PM
What are they going to do to people who don't pay for health insurance? Take away their license to health?
How do they collect premiums?
Well, let's see...If you have kids, and you don't provide them with health insurance, I guess they'd call that neglect, and whisk your kids off to some foster hell for "their own good".
Or, if it's just you, they'd fine you. Guess what happens when you can't pay a fine? Oh, yes...you go to the county farm, or worse, until the fine is paid off at a rate of $100/24 hour day. When you get out, you are of course out of work and broke, so I guess you won't be affording insurance, and back you go.
And the band played on.
:horrormirth: because its true
Quote from: fomenter on September 22, 2009, 09:18:31 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 22, 2009, 09:16:41 PM
Quote from: Nigel on September 22, 2009, 09:13:06 PM
What are they going to do to people who don't pay for health insurance? Take away their license to health?
How do they collect premiums?
Well, let's see...If you have kids, and you don't provide them with health insurance, I guess they'd call that neglect, and whisk your kids off to some foster hell for "their own good".
Or, if it's just you, they'd fine you. Guess what happens when you can't pay a fine? Oh, yes...you go to the county farm, or worse, until the fine is paid off at a rate of $100/24 hour day. When you get out, you are of course out of work and broke, so I guess you won't be affording insurance, and back you go.
And the band played on.
:horrormirth: because its true
Of course it's true. Woe to that nation that uses its children as weapons against their parents.
I'm surprised Wackenhut's stock isn't going up. After all, there is a big financial incentive in imprisoning people...from the cheap labour to the contracts for corporate sponsors.
Quote from: Cain on September 22, 2009, 09:22:50 PM
I'm surprised Wackenhut's stock isn't going up. After all, there is a big financial incentive in imprisoning people...from the cheap labour to the contracts for corporate sponsors.
Well thats one way to fix the recession.
Well, the Healthy Families Initiative in CA is for people below the $66K mark, so I'm thinking they'll be using something similar for kids federally. I think that's what state programs are really hoping for, because a lot of these pediatric medical and educational programs are hitting the dust with the budget crises going on in every state capitol.
Quote from: Cain on September 22, 2009, 09:22:50 PM
I'm surprised Wackenhut's stock isn't going up. After all, there is a big financial incentive in imprisoning people...from the cheap labour to the contracts for corporate sponsors.
:x O jesus.
Quote from: Cain on September 22, 2009, 09:22:50 PM
I'm surprised Wackenhut's stock isn't going up. After all, there is a big financial incentive in imprisoning people...from the cheap labour to the contracts for corporate sponsors.
They are the biggest lobbyist in America, after all.
And the reason their stock isn't going up is the same reason that the Jews formed nice, neat rows when they got off the trains. Because people don't see what's coming, because they CAN'T see what's coming, because their minds really aren't working right, as a result of conditioning.
This only happens to other people, Cain. And right now, the TV is on, and I have a beer and I'm watching American Idol, and everything is just dandy. Why am I sweating? I don't know. Perhaps the air conditioning is on the fritz. Or maybe, just maybe, the back of my brain is screeching out instructions along the bio-surivival circuit, and even though I won't listen, I can't make it shut up. Oh, well, open another bag of Cheetohs. Fart.
Quote from: Jenne on September 22, 2009, 09:24:51 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 22, 2009, 09:22:50 PM
I'm surprised Wackenhut's stock isn't going up. After all, there is a big financial incentive in imprisoning people...from the cheap labour to the contracts for corporate sponsors.
:x O jesus.
Please walk up this chute. Thanks.
Nope! Waiting for my dad to come down the chute, thanks. :( Meh. Fuck this century.
Quote from: Jenne on September 22, 2009, 09:29:51 PM
Nope! Waiting for my dad to come down the chute, thanks. :( Meh. Fuck this century.
Tell him to wave to all the nice young couples going the other way when he does.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 22, 2009, 09:30:47 PM
Quote from: Jenne on September 22, 2009, 09:29:51 PM
Nope! Waiting for my dad to come down the chute, thanks. :( Meh. Fuck this century.
Tell him to wave to all the nice young couples going the other way when he does.
I'm still waiting for the state of CA to get its ass in gear and release him. I know they're going to do it soon--they have no choice! But at least let us know, Fuckers!
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on September 22, 2009, 08:58:32 PM
Quote from: fomenter on September 22, 2009, 08:54:49 PM
but... but... they said it would be FREE..... FREE heath care.... that means we don't have to pay for it..... now its mandatory that we pay for coverage it whether or not we need or want it????
yay government :lulz:
But you do still have your sammich, right? :wink:
Not if you have to sell your sammich to pay for health care.
Quote from: Rumckle on September 22, 2009, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on September 22, 2009, 08:58:32 PM
Quote from: fomenter on September 22, 2009, 08:54:49 PM
but... but... they said it would be FREE..... FREE heath care.... that means we don't have to pay for it..... now its mandatory that we pay for coverage it whether or not we need or want it????
yay government :lulz:
But you do still have your sammich, right? :wink:
Not if you have to sell your sammich to pay for health care.
I love being stuck between assholes like our government, and assholes waving a black flag.
A plague on both their houses.
:lulz:
I'm sure if anarchists got their wish they would be one of the first to regret it.
And assholes who think the people in government eat raw baby flesh while chanting their praises to Leon Trotsky and the only way to sort it all out is a good old dose of protofascism, uh, religiously inspired law and order.
Quote from: Cain on September 22, 2009, 11:14:47 PM
And assholes who think the people in government eat raw baby flesh while chanting their praises to Leon Trotsky and the only way to sort it all out is a good old dose of protofascism, uh, religiously inspired law and order.
Yes.
I begin to find it bothersome.
Quote from: Rumckle on September 22, 2009, 11:13:50 PM
:lulz:
I'm sure if anarchists got their wish they would be one of the first to regret it.
No, they're all tough guys. You can't "get the drop on them". Plus, their friends would fuck you up <--- protogovernment ITT.
Shit, you're right, I mean look at this guy:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=15333.msg745292#msg745292
:scared:
Quote from: Rumckle on September 22, 2009, 11:21:05 PM
Shit, you're right, I mean look at this guy:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=15333.msg745292#msg745292
:scared:
I just shat myself in terror, you bastard.
I'm voting Palin 2012. :argh!: :x
I really fucking hate this nation-state.
PALIN 2012
LET'S GET THIS THING OVER WITH
VOTE APOCALYPSE
PALIN 2012
Quote from: Cramulus on September 22, 2009, 11:50:35 PM
PALIN 2012
LET'S GET THIS THING OVER WITH
VOTE APOCALYPSE
PALIN 2012
FUCK YES
DISCORDIANS FOR PALIN 2012
BTW, Santorum has been talking about running in 2012 also. Can you imagine a Santorum/Palin ticket? :horrormirth:
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on September 23, 2009, 12:08:35 AM
BTW, Santorum has been talking about running in 2012 also. Can you imagine a Santorum/Palin ticket? :horrormirth:
Yes. It's glorious. It /must/ happen.
Quote from: Cain on September 22, 2009, 09:05:50 PM
5% of Americans?
COMMUNISM! DEATH PANELS! OBAMA WANTS TO KILL YOUR GRANDMA!
Well, at least you guys know one thing for sure, now. Obama does not have the balls to stand up against the wingnuts, either based on principle or even wounded ego (even if he is in the pocket of pharamceuticals and insurance companies, in his position I'd be tempted to make the bill include more clauses orientated towards the public option - just to show the bastards I couldn't be intimidated by them).
So next time the rich and powerful and not especially caring for the democratic process want something out of Obama, guess what is going to happen? That's right, crazies out of the closet, talking about incipient tyranny and socialism, with pre-made signs, bused in to protest by astro-turfing faux grass roots organisations.
The Republic and liberal democracy = pwned, 169%
I don't think Obama had any intention of ever standing up to the wingnuts. This was never anything other than a direct transfer of wealth into the pockets of industry buddies. Even if we had a public option, it'd *still* just be a way to give certain corporations more money.
He covered his bets too, on the off chance congress includes some kind of regulation meant to help bring the cost of health care down, the woman he appointed to Health and Human Services, the department reponsible for enforcing any new regulation, is a medical supply industry executive. Enforcement will be gravely lacking.
I'd invest in death bonds if I had anything left.
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on September 23, 2009, 12:08:35 AM
BTW, Santorum has been talking about running in 2012 also. Can you imagine a Santorum/Palin ticket? :horrormirth:
Dirty Ricky? For real? :lulz:
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/harrisburg_politics/Santorum_considers_presidential_run_in_2012.html
QuoteFormer Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum says he is considering seeking the Republican nomination for president in 2012, calling President Obama vulnerable to a challenge from the right and his policies "injurious to America."
"The dynamic has changed," Santorum said Tuesday on a RNC conference call with reporters to discuss Obama's fundraiser for Sen. Arlen Specter (D.,Pa.). "A lot of folks who wouldn't have thought about running against an incumbent president" are thinking about it. "If you'd asked the question a couple of months ago..."
Santorum cited Obama's declining poll numbers and the furor over his plans to overhaul health care and the huge federal spending on the stimulus package and bank and auto-industry bailouts. Most of all, Santorum said that Obama has "failed to deliver on what he promised, to be a transformative president" who would unify the country.
A lot of people are going to take a look and see what they can do to confront this presidency, which many of us –as you are seeing from the tea parties and the like – which many of us believe is injurious to America," Santorum said. He said a 2012 race is "something that I think I would consider."
Santorum was responding to Commonwealth Confidential's question about his recent statement to a national group of Catholic leaders that he was thinking about running and asking for prayers. He was answering a question from a member of the audience at the group's convention when he said he had thought about a presidential run. Santorum said Tuesday that he was trying to make the point that the political climate had turned more favorable to any conservative challenge to Obama.
"I went from not considering it at all to saying I would consider it – and that's as far as I'm willing to go 3 ½ years out," Santorum said.
America - We've had a good run.
Palin 2012
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on September 23, 2009, 12:08:35 AM
BTW, Santorum has been talking about running in 2012 also. Can you imagine a Santorum/Palin ticket? :horrormirth:
What I am envisioning now is Palin covered with Santorum (http://www.spreadingsantorum.com/).
:fap:
Let me start by saying the bill that "bought and paid for" Baucus came out with is pretty awful. The absence of a public option being a big issue. Now, let me also say, that I do happen to agree with the notion of every American being required to have health insurance. Now, before you blow up, hear me out.
When an uninsured person gets sick, where do they go? The only place they can go, the Emergency Room. These people potentially get in the way of insured people who need emergency care as well. Not only that, when they are treated, the cost gets foisted on the rest of us in the form of higher premiums, co-pays, etc., Now, of course, there need to be provisions for people who are unemployed, part-time employees making chicken scratch for wages, homeless, etc. Basically people in poverty. A good bill would have some kind of hardship waiver and I actually recall Obama mentioning something about a hardship waiver related to the mandated insurance idea. In other words, those who can pay should pay.
There was never any way we were going to get "free" health care. There's no such thing. Even if we went to a single payer system, we would still be paying a premium, but it would be something that comes out of our paychecks. But for some reason most Americans can't stomach that kind of system, so if we are going to do reform, we're going to have to use a half-ass approach. And even the Public Option wasn't going to be free. It would've been run like a non-profit which would be beneficial because they don't have the overhead of advertising costs, high executive salaries, etc. So the premium would've been very very low.
Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts. I do agree the proposal from Baucus' group is pretty bad. I think there were good ideas, but they, so far, are being drawn up very poorly.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 23, 2009, 02:04:59 PM
Let me start by saying the bill that "bought and paid for" Baucus came out with is pretty awful. The absence of a public option being a big issue. Now, let me also say, that I do happen to agree with the notion of every American being required to have health insurance. Now, before you blow up, hear me out.
When an uninsured person gets sick, where do they go? The only place they can go, the Emergency Room. These people potentially get in the way of insured people who need emergency care as well. Not only that, when they are treated, the cost gets foisted on the rest of us in the form of higher premiums, co-pays, etc., Now, of course, there need to be provisions for people who are unemployed, part-time employees making chicken scratch for wages, homeless, etc. Basically people in poverty. A good bill would have some kind of hardship waiver and I actually recall Obama mentioning something about a hardship waiver related to the mandated insurance idea. In other words, those who can pay should pay.
There was never any way we were going to get "free" health care. There's no such thing. Even if we went to a single payer system, we would still be paying a premium, but it would be something that comes out of our paychecks. But for some reason most Americans can't stomach that kind of system, so if we are going to do reform, we're going to have to use a half-ass approach. And even the Public Option wasn't going to be free. It would've been run like a non-profit which would be beneficial because they don't have the overhead of advertising costs, high executive salaries, etc. So the premium would've been very very low.
Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts. I do agree the proposal from Baucus' group is pretty bad. I think there were good ideas, but they, so far, are being drawn up very poorly.
Mode income in the USA is $19,900/year. Yeah, they can afford health care.
Next they just need to make it illegal to sue health insurance companies.
Quote from: Idem on September 23, 2009, 05:31:02 PM
Next they just need to make it illegal to sue health insurance companies.
And then totally deregulate them. The Free Market™ will sort all this shit out.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 23, 2009, 05:14:37 PM
Mode income in the USA is $19,900/year. Yeah, they can afford health care.
No, they couldn't afford it the way the GOP wants them to afford it. And that's where I think a hardship waiver should come into play. Or a public option with a sliding fee scale. Someone making 19,900 a year certainly can't afford the premium I pay for my insurance. But they could contribute something to a public option where the premium was based upon your earnings. So someone who is making a pittance pays a pittance of a premium but still gets the same kind of coverage. Of course this would have to be subsidized in some way so that it doesn't constantly run in the red.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 23, 2009, 06:06:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 23, 2009, 05:14:37 PM
Mode income in the USA is $19,900/year. Yeah, they can afford health care.
No, they couldn't afford it the way the GOP wants them to afford it. And that's where I think a hardship waiver should come into play. Or a public option with a sliding fee scale. Someone making 19,900 a year certainly can't afford the premium I pay for my insurance. But they could contribute something to a public option where the premium was based upon your earnings. So someone who is making a pittance pays a pittance of a premium but still gets the same kind of coverage. Of course this would have to be subsidized in some way so that it doesn't constantly run in the red.
I think you may have missed a hint of sarcasm.
So anyway, I've been thinking about Obama's bizarre and impossible health care plan, which appears to mandate health insurance for everyone. There is no no fucking possible way to enforce this. It's simply not possible. He's not stupid... he knows this. This is only the first step of a multi-part plan, the end goal of which is fully socialized health care... which he knows he cannot achieve in one step. This health care plan is, simply, bullshit to convince the right-leaning folk to let him put the first foot on the slippery slope toward socialized medicine.
Quote from: Nigel on September 23, 2009, 06:19:16 PM
So anyway, I've been thinking about Obama's bizarre and impossible health care plan, which appears to mandate health insurance for everyone. There is no no fucking possible way to enforce this. It's simply not possible. He's not stupid... he knows this. This is only the first step of a multi-part plan, the end goal of which is fully socialized health care... which he knows he cannot achieve in one step. This health care plan is, simply, bullshit to convince the right-leaning folk to let him put the first foot on the slippery slope toward socialized medicine.
Hope springs eternal!
Also, I gave a pretty good method by which they could enforce it, right after your original objection.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 23, 2009, 05:14:37 PM
Mode income in the USA is $19,900/year. Yeah, they can afford health care.
Isn't the poverty line 21k?
I've been waiting for this, more than half the country is now living in poverty :lulz:
Quote from: Nigel on September 23, 2009, 06:14:29 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 23, 2009, 06:06:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 23, 2009, 05:14:37 PM
Mode income in the USA is $19,900/year. Yeah, they can afford health care.
No, they couldn't afford it the way the GOP wants them to afford it. And that's where I think a hardship waiver should come into play. Or a public option with a sliding fee scale. Someone making 19,900 a year certainly can't afford the premium I pay for my insurance. But they could contribute something to a public option where the premium was based upon your earnings. So someone who is making a pittance pays a pittance of a premium but still gets the same kind of coverage. Of course this would have to be subsidized in some way so that it doesn't constantly run in the red.
I think you may have missed a hint of sarcasm.
No I got the sarcasm. I understand that $19,900 isn't a whole lot of money, I've been there, that's why I say if you are going to mandate coverage it has to be done in a way that those people scraping by can contribute to it. It certainly isn't going to be at the same rate as someone who makes what I make.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 23, 2009, 06:36:26 PM
Quote from: Nigel on September 23, 2009, 06:14:29 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 23, 2009, 06:06:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 23, 2009, 05:14:37 PM
Mode income in the USA is $19,900/year. Yeah, they can afford health care.
No, they couldn't afford it the way the GOP wants them to afford it. And that's where I think a hardship waiver should come into play. Or a public option with a sliding fee scale. Someone making 19,900 a year certainly can't afford the premium I pay for my insurance. But they could contribute something to a public option where the premium was based upon your earnings. So someone who is making a pittance pays a pittance of a premium but still gets the same kind of coverage. Of course this would have to be subsidized in some way so that it doesn't constantly run in the red.
I think you may have missed a hint of sarcasm.
No I got the sarcasm. I understand that $19,900 isn't a whole lot of money, I've been there, that's why I say if you are going to mandate coverage it has to be done in a way that those people scraping by can contribute to it. It certainly isn't going to be at the same rate as someone who makes what I make.
I have a perferred method. I'd like to cook and eat any congressman found to have taken contributions from health insurance companies, and then look at the public option again.
I can't argue with that one. Baucus Brisket anyone?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 22, 2009, 09:16:41 PM
Quote from: Nigel on September 22, 2009, 09:13:06 PM
What are they going to do to people who don't pay for health insurance? Take away their license to health?
How do they collect premiums?
Well, let's see...If you have kids, and you don't provide them with health insurance, I guess they'd call that neglect, and whisk your kids off to some foster hell for "their own good".
Or, if it's just you, they'd fine you. Guess what happens when you can't pay a fine? Oh, yes...you go to the county farm, or worse, until the fine is paid off at a rate of $100/24 hour day. When you get out, you are of course out of work and broke, so I guess you won't be affording insurance, and back you go.
And the band played on.
Missed it the first time. :lulz:
Of course I could be a literal cunt and explain why that wouldn't work economically, but then I'd have Cain up my ass again... and god knows I prefer it the other way around.
It wouldn't have to work economically.
This is one of those "form over function" things.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 23, 2009, 06:44:50 PMI have a perferred method. I'd like to cook and eat any congressman found to have taken contributions from health insurance companies, and then look at the public option again.
:D I hope you're hungry -- that's about 3/4 of them.
Quote from: Pastor-Mullah Zappathruster on September 23, 2009, 07:29:44 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 23, 2009, 06:44:50 PMI have a perferred method. I'd like to cook and eat any congressman found to have taken contributions from health insurance companies, and then look at the public option again.
:D I hope you're hungry -- that's about 3/4 of them.
I was thinking 11/12ths.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 23, 2009, 07:39:24 PM
Quote from: Pastor-Mullah Zappathruster on September 23, 2009, 07:29:44 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 23, 2009, 06:44:50 PMI have a perferred method. I'd like to cook and eat any congressman found to have taken contributions from health insurance companies, and then look at the public option again.
:D I hope you're hungry -- that's about 3/4 of them.
I was thinking 11/12ths.
You're right. I see what I did. I was just looking at the donations for the 2010 campaign season. If I go back to 2008, then it is about 11/12 of them.
But that's just because Dennis Kucinich is still waiting for the aliens to deliver his donation.
Quote from: Nigel on September 23, 2009, 06:19:16 PM
So anyway, I've been thinking about Obama's bizarre and impossible health care plan, which appears to mandate health insurance for everyone. There is no no fucking possible way to enforce this.
Imagine a new IRS rule... You must submit proof of health insurance along with your taxes, or you will be fined an amount equal to the lowest rate offered.
Oh, and grab your ankles.
Quote from: LMNO on September 23, 2009, 08:09:14 PM
Quote from: Nigel on September 23, 2009, 06:19:16 PM
So anyway, I've been thinking about Obama's bizarre and impossible health care plan, which appears to mandate health insurance for everyone. There is no no fucking possible way to enforce this.
Imagine a new IRS rule... You must submit proof of health insurance along with your taxes, or you will be fined an amount equal to the lowest rate offered.
Oh, and grab your ankles.
Yea, I do love that one. Since fining people who can't afford insurance will definitely enable them to afford it next year! Luckily I got insurance through my job a few years ago and my boyfriend managed to get at his work shortly after the law was passed here, or else we'd be screwed. I had MassHealth for a year or so but got kicked off because I turned 19, wasn't pregnant and didn't quit my job because I made just barely over their cut-off line despite the fact that with my bills and having only a part-time job I had no money left over to cover any health insurance premiums. So I went without health insurance for a few years and tried not to get sick (which didn't always work, somehow) until I finally got taken on full time and eventually got insurance.
My brother just turned 22 and got taken off my parents' health insurance even though he's still in college. He had to enroll in his own plan, obviously, and since he can only work part-time when he's home from school, I'm pretty sure that they only way he can afford it is because my parents are helping him out.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 23, 2009, 09:04:39 PM
Yea, I do love that one. Since fining people who can't afford insurance will definitely enable them to afford it next year!
HAW HAW
Quote from: Nigel on September 23, 2009, 06:19:16 PM
So anyway, I've been thinking about Obama's bizarre and impossible health care plan, which appears to mandate health insurance for everyone. There is no no fucking possible way to enforce this. It's simply not possible. He's not stupid... he knows this. This is only the first step of a multi-part plan, the end goal of which is fully socialized health care... which he knows he cannot achieve in one step. This health care plan is, simply, bullshit to convince the right-leaning folk to let him put the first foot on the slippery slope toward socialized medicine.
Ah yes, the only "Just the tip, baby" ploy.
:lmnuendo:
Quote from: Nigel on September 23, 2009, 06:19:16 PM
So anyway, I've been thinking about Obama's bizarre and impossible health care plan, which appears to mandate health insurance for everyone. There is no no fucking possible way to enforce this. It's simply not possible. He's not stupid... he knows this. This is only the first step of a multi-part plan, the end goal of which is fully socialized health care... which he knows he cannot achieve in one step. This health care plan is, simply, bullshit to convince the right-leaning folk to let him put the first foot on the slippery slope toward socialized medicine.
I had thought this too, initially, over the weekend...but a part of me just rejected it outright.
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on September 23, 2009, 09:15:57 PM
Quote from: Nigel on September 23, 2009, 06:19:16 PM
So anyway, I've been thinking about Obama's bizarre and impossible health care plan, which appears to mandate health insurance for everyone. There is no no fucking possible way to enforce this. It's simply not possible. He's not stupid... he knows this. This is only the first step of a multi-part plan, the end goal of which is fully socialized health care... which he knows he cannot achieve in one step. This health care plan is, simply, bullshit to convince the right-leaning folk to let him put the first foot on the slippery slope toward socialized medicine.
Ah yes, the only "Just the tip, baby" ploy.
:lmnuendo:
:lulz: Totally.
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on September 23, 2009, 09:15:57 PM
Quote from: Nigel on September 23, 2009, 06:19:16 PM
So anyway, I've been thinking about Obama's bizarre and impossible health care plan, which appears to mandate health insurance for everyone. There is no no fucking possible way to enforce this. It's simply not possible. He's not stupid... he knows this. This is only the first step of a multi-part plan, the end goal of which is fully socialized health care... which he knows he cannot achieve in one step. This health care plan is, simply, bullshit to convince the right-leaning folk to let him put the first foot on the slippery slope toward socialized medicine.
Ah yes, the only "Just the tip, baby" ploy.
:lmnuendo:
Acceptable if and only if opposing politicians are the target, and behind the tip lie vibrating, rotating, and lots of protrusions.
Quote from: Nigel on September 23, 2009, 06:14:29 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on September 23, 2009, 06:06:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 23, 2009, 05:14:37 PM
Mode income in the USA is $19,900/year. Yeah, they can afford health care.
No, they couldn't afford it the way the GOP wants them to afford it. And that's where I think a hardship waiver should come into play. Or a public option with a sliding fee scale. Someone making 19,900 a year certainly can't afford the premium I pay for my insurance. But they could contribute something to a public option where the premium was based upon your earnings. So someone who is making a pittance pays a pittance of a premium but still gets the same kind of coverage. Of course this would have to be subsidized in some way so that it doesn't constantly run in the red.
I think you may have missed a hint of sarcasm.
now maybe I shouldnt involve myself in this cause I dont know too much about it,
but I always understood that the US spends the most % GNP $$$ on healthcare per person compared to ANY other country in the world, yet they still have this extremely crappy healthcare.
seems to me that "affording" doesn't have shit all to do with it, and neither does socialism (mandatory state insurance) versus capitalism (free market woop-tee-doo) as they both have been shown to work fine in the right conditions. But as long as somewhere in this whole health business all these huge amounts of money go down the shitter without actually increasing the healthcare, THAT is the part where you need improvement.
universal healthcare isnt going to do shitfuckall if the entire health system is inefficient as fuck.
because whichever way you go about it, some crooks in the system somewhere are going to have to start making less $$$$ moneys over the health and lives of american citizens before things improve.
I mean, not until you got THAT bit (general efficiency) at least SORT OF right, arguing about socialism vs capitalism is about as useful as arguing about pie versus cake is the filling is shit.
but as far as I understand "affording" shouldn't have much to do with it.
Socialized healthcare should drop the amount we pay, at least initially. Typical private insurance overhead/profit is around 20%, the best private nonprofit is 13%, Medicare is 4% (according to NPR). Even more money can be shaved off thanks to hospitals not needing trained specialists to fill out insurance paperwork.
This wouldn't stop the meteoric rise in costs that took the cost of healthcare from 7% GNP to 17.6% GNP though (cost is projected to double in the next 9 years).