I was writing a letter (Yes, honest letter snail mail zomg who still writes those?) to my Grandma and was updating her on my life and ended up writing a bit that I thought I'd like to share. Feel free to kick me, hard, in the nads if it's warranted.
"Anyway, I've decided that when I go back to college I'm going to study English so I can teach. I'll probably start at the high school level and then maybe move on to the college level as I continue studying. Or maybe I'll stay at high school. I don't really know, for certain.
I want to be a writer too. And I want to make music. I think what it is is that I want to make people feel--to think. To move them, get them to go outside their box for five seconds. I think that's why I want to teach, too. I don't expect to make a major impact, not anymore than a book you've read or a song you've heard. Even an influential teacher only does so much; in the end it's your own responsibility to make your own decisions. I think a nudge is helpful, a subtle push or a sly wink is enough. Any more is dogmatic and I'm not here to force it on anyone. It's your decision to listen or to put me down, to turn me off, or tune me out. I respect that; if I'm free to make my decisions then so are you, y'know?"
It's short but, meh.
That's quite a nice sentiment and I hope you can find teaching a rewarding and successful vocation.
I know from my time in school, having a teacher who listened, was intelligent, and didn't simply "go by the book" helped enormously . I've since gotten out of high school early and now attend city college, but without someone to treat me like a thinking human being, my high school experience would have been even more intolerable. Teachers are the precious human factor in the impersonal and inefficient public school system, without them it's just an education mill, and that's crap.
I very much strongly think, that if there is a place, where dreams go to die, and people go to get broken and grinded into submission...
it is school.
It's like being ideologically raped.
Well, yeah, but for children being innoculated with ideas, even inconsensual, is actually a good thing.
And to be fair, if school was for you a place where dreams came to die and you felt you were ground into submission, either your particular school really really sucked, you need to grow up a little or you're an idiot, or some combination of those three.
I mean, I can sort of get what you mean by ground into submission, of course there's some submission going on in schools, that's also a good thing (but you were one of them that thinks anarchy is a good idea right).
However, the bit about where dreams come to die, you're gonna have to explain a little. Why do you feel that? Because it is quite the opposite. You learn about the world, which is creating a fertile soil for dreams, not destroying them.
And Chief, good for you! I'm thinking of becoming a math or physics teacher, myself.
FYI: speaking as a former math teacher - the chalkboard time is a blast. you think you understand a subject, until you teach it for a semester.
however, i taught freshman pre-calc and calculus at an *engineering* college and was amazed at how many of my students disliked or had no interest in math. that will break your spirit.
the worst part for me, and the reason i got out of it, was i couldn't deal with failing people. i know i was supposed to not let those that weren't capable go beyond my class. but, with college freshman, it amounted to telling little johnny that his dreams of becoming an engineer would never materialize. as a judge not lest ye be judged kind of person, that ate my soul.
well if they can't do math, they can't become an engineer. if you think they're smart regardless, you might wanna counsel them on what they become instead.
i dunno what "freshman" is (1st year of college?), but I'm going for highschool ages 12-18, roughly. so the level won't be that hard and if they're not interested, that sucks, because they're going to get the same tests as everybody else.
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 07, 2009, 05:01:29 PM
well if they can't do math, they can't become an engineer. if you think they're smart regardless, you might wanna counsel them on what they become instead.
i dunno what "freshman" is (1st year of college?), but I'm going for highschool ages 12-18, roughly. so the level won't be that hard and if they're not interested, that sucks, because they're going to get the same tests as everybody else.
yes, freshman is first year of college. i think high school would be both better and worse - feel less bad about failing people (no dreams to really shatter yet) but probly even less interested students who are only in your class because they have to be.
just remember - all those "crazy" math and physics teachers you had in school probably didn't start out that way.
oh, I fully intend to start out that way, and take it from there--after all, I learned from the best :-)
Quote from: JohNyx on November 07, 2009, 06:43:11 AM
I very much strongly think, that if there is a place, where dreams go to die, and people go to get broken and grinded into submission...
it is school.
Are you talking about college? Because I found college, what little I had of it, to the be opposite.
Could it be that there are two types of college experiences, vocational and non-vocational?
Quote from: Nigel on November 07, 2009, 11:39:25 PM
Are you talking about college? Because I found college, what little I had of it, to the be opposite.
No, i love college.
Quote from: Triple Zero on November 07, 2009, 12:15:31 PM
I mean, I can sort of get what you mean by ground into submission, of course there's some submission going on in schools, that's also a good thing (but you were one of them that thinks anarchy is a good idea right).
Oh yes, but of course, because disliking the educational system is so
totally 100% correlated with anarchy.
Speaking of my last 3 years of high school.
Useful for me:
-Math I,II (beyond that such as matrixes, vectors and abstract junk no way)
-Geography
-Biology
-Introduction to Social Sciences
-English
-Spanish Lecture and Redaction
-Individual and Society
-Informatics
-Anatomy/Phisiology
-Philosophy
-Health Sciences
-Investigation Methodology
-Probability and Statistics
Not useful:
-Chemistry
-Physics
-Mexican History (was nationalist point of view)
-Ecology
-Socioeconomic structure of Mexico
-Law
-Financial Math
-Earth Sciences
-Literature (non-universal and with a teacher with crappy taste)
Im fine with the basic knowledge things that are useful in general, but when it gets down to stuff like physics or carbon chemistry that you wont need or use, unless you go to college to study it, you wont ever run into it again.
Quote from: JohNyx on November 08, 2009, 12:32:52 AM
Im fine with the basic knowledge things that are useful in general, but when it gets down to stuff like physics or carbon chemistry that you wont need or use, unless you go to college to study it, you wont ever run into it again.
that right there is the product of current education systems all over the world: IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE TESTED ON IT YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW IT etc.
I mean I get you're point, that some things you are taught just aren't interesting to you, and probably never will be, but still, it seems pretty bleak to me that you would write something off just because you're not going to have to study it again.
x
:horrormirth: What can one get away with not knowing? How much, of what, for how long? What happens when I can't survive not knowing?
:lulz: What I know, THEY cannot take away from me! It is mine to play with and savor forever!
Quote from: JohNyx on November 07, 2009, 06:43:11 AM
I very much strongly think, that if there is a place, where dreams go to die, and people go to get broken and grinded into submission...
it is school.
Yes, because we need more illiterate people.
In my everyday life i think i couldnt survive without knowing how to square root, what chemical compounds make up orange juice or the theoretical knowledge to solve how many newtons are needed to push down on a spring.
Although, language skills i do agree are important.
Quote from: JohNyx on November 09, 2009, 02:42:06 PM
In my everyday life i think i couldnt survive without knowing how to square root, what chemical compounds make up orange juice or the theoretical knowledge to solve how many newtons are needed to push down on a spring.
Although, language skills i do agree are important.
And survival is everything you could ever want?
Also, I think you meant, "I think I could survive," in your post. Is that so?
Quote from: JohNyx on November 09, 2009, 02:42:06 PM
In my everyday life i think i couldnt survive without knowing how to square root, what chemical compounds make up orange juice or the theoretical knowledge to solve how many newtons are needed to push down on a spring.
Although, language skills i do agree are important.
It might not be important to
you but for some it really is. How the hell else would we get people to do work in fields that require those square roots or chemical compounds? High school just kind of throws information at you and you sift through it and figure out what parts from high school were the most important and take that with you to college, I think. Sometimes when you get to college you change your mind entirely. And for some people, the most important part of high school is just getting the hell out of it. High school isn't tailor made for each student so the knowledge they teach you has to be broad, not in depth. And it doesn't work for every person, a system that broad
can't for everyone, but for the most part it doesn't. It didn't for me, personally. I ended up dropping out partially due to what was going on in my life at the time. I was going through a lot and I ended up just kind of withdrawing because I was temporarily out of my god damned skull. And no, not the OH MAH GAH, I'M CRAZEH. I took my Uncle's (One of my "Dads") death incredibly hard. I Got my GED within three months and went to college about a year later, though. But that's kind of beside the point and I'm getting off topic.
I think what I'm trying to say is that even if it wasn't that important for you, I'm sure for others it was. Not everyone. I personally don't have the mind for Math past a certain point. But I do know that I use damn dirty Algebra just about every god damn day. >_< Physics didn't click for me, largely because I had trouble remembering all of the formulas. English, though. English clicked for me at a very young age and I've been constantly on the prowl for fun and interesting new ways to use language. And History lessons. I used to HATE history back when I was in elementary school but for some reason, part way through high-school, I just couldn't get enough of history. I remember one time when I was a kid I asked "Why do I need to know history? I mean, it's already done and over with, right?". I wish i could go back in time and tell myself to stop being a retard. But I'm off topic again. I'm fairly certain that means I've said everything I was trying to, right then.
Quote from: yhnmzw on November 09, 2009, 03:21:04 PM
Quote from: JohNyx on November 09, 2009, 02:42:06 PM
In my everyday life i think i couldnt survive without knowing how to square root, what chemical compounds make up orange juice or the theoretical knowledge to solve how many newtons are needed to push down on a spring.
Although, language skills i do agree are important.
And survival is everything you could ever want?
Also, I think you meant, "I think I could survive," in your post. Is that so?
Italics = sarcasm
Quote from: JohNyx on November 09, 2009, 02:42:06 PM
In my everyday life i think i couldnt survive without knowing how to square root, what chemical compounds make up orange juice or the theoretical knowledge to solve how many newtons are needed to push down on a spring.
Although, language skills i do agree are important.
Yes, so let's just abandon all math and scientific knowledge, because we can trust our leaders with that sort of stuff.
Quote from: Chief Uwachiquen on November 09, 2009, 04:38:16 PM
Quote from: JohNyx on November 09, 2009, 02:42:06 PM
In my everyday life i think i couldnt survive without knowing how to square root, what chemical compounds make up orange juice or the theoretical knowledge to solve how many newtons are needed to push down on a spring.
Although, language skills i do agree are important.
It might not be important to you but for some it really is. How the hell else would we get people to do work in fields that require those square roots or chemical compounds? High school just kind of throws information at you and you sift through it and figure out what parts from high school were the most important and take that with you to college, I think. Sometimes when you get to college you change your mind entirely. And for some people, the most important part of high school is just getting the hell out of it. High school isn't tailor made for each student so the knowledge they teach you has to be broad, not in depth. And it doesn't work for every person, a system that broad can't for everyone, but for the most part it doesn't. It didn't for me, personally. I ended up dropping out partially due to what was going on in my life at the time. I was going through a lot and I ended up just kind of withdrawing because I was temporarily out of my god damned skull. And no, not the OH MAH GAH, I'M CRAZEH. I took my Uncle's (One of my "Dads") death incredibly hard. I Got my GED within three months and went to college about a year later, though. But that's kind of beside the point and I'm getting off topic.
I think what I'm trying to say is that even if it wasn't that important for you, I'm sure for others it was. Not everyone. I personally don't have the mind for Math past a certain point. But I do know that I use damn dirty Algebra just about every god damn day. >_< Physics didn't click for me, largely because I had trouble remembering all of the formulas. English, though. English clicked for me at a very young age and I've been constantly on the prowl for fun and interesting new ways to use language. And History lessons. I used to HATE history back when I was in elementary school but for some reason, part way through high-school, I just couldn't get enough of history. I remember one time when I was a kid I asked "Why do I need to know history? I mean, it's already done and over with, right?". I wish i could go back in time and tell myself to stop being a retard. But I'm off topic again. I'm fairly certain that means I've said everything I was trying to, right then.
I guess i should learn how to write in... whats it called? E-Prime?
I just think that broad education is fine, as long as its not crazy broad as it is now; theres this thing in society called specialization, which follows the principle of "the more you grab on to, the weaker your overall grasp" (i dont know the direct translation).
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 10, 2009, 04:23:43 AM
Quote from: JohNyx on November 09, 2009, 02:42:06 PM
In my everyday life i think i couldnt survive without knowing how to square root, what chemical compounds make up orange juice or the theoretical knowledge to solve how many newtons are needed to push down on a spring.
Although, language skills i do agree are important.
Yes, so let's just abandon all math and scientific knowledge, because we can trust our leaders with that sort of stuff.
Johnyx,
flogging himself from now on for not being good at a dozen disciplines.
Quote from: JohNyx on November 10, 2009, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 10, 2009, 04:23:43 AM
Quote from: JohNyx on November 09, 2009, 02:42:06 PM
In my everyday life i think i couldnt survive without knowing how to square root, what chemical compounds make up orange juice or the theoretical knowledge to solve how many newtons are needed to push down on a spring.
Although, language skills i do agree are important.
Yes, so let's just abandon all math and scientific knowledge, because we can trust our leaders with that sort of stuff.
Johnyx,
flogging himself from now on for not being good at a dozen disciplines.
Yes, because well-rounded educations are for stupid hippies.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 10, 2009, 04:23:43 AM
Yes, so let's just abandon all math and scientific knowledge, because we can trust our leaders with that sort of stuff.
Winner.
Quote from: JohNyx on November 08, 2009, 12:32:52 AM
Im fine with the basic knowledge things that are useful in general, but when it gets down to stuff like physics or carbon chemistry that you wont need or use, unless you go to college to study it, you wont ever run into it again.
Your body
runs on carbon chemistry.
H
|
R - C = O
|
H
See the above compound? That's an aldehyde. Note the strongly polar C = O bond and the relatively loosely pi electrons. Those two factors combine to make aldehydes relatively strong electrophiles, with regrettable consequences to sensitive chemicals like DNA or certain proteins. Aldehydes do all kinds of nasty things to your body, everything from cancer to birth defects to organ failure. Fun! Aldehydes used to be used to keep biology lab specimens preserved, until they cottoned on to the health risks. Also, aldehydes are a metabolic product of alcohol, and are the main part of alcohol that leads to all the damaging health effects.
Carbon chemistry is fun and will help keep you alive - it's pretty difficult to understand the health effects of food if you don't understand what's in them.
The problem with judging education by utility is that you'd end up with a system that just teaches enough basic maths to survive with, enough English (or your own native language) to sign your own name, enough science not to sniff glue and very little else to the vast majority of the population.
I took advanced Philosophy, Biology, History and Spanish for my A levels. Spanish aside, where obviously translations, tour guides etc are possible, most of these are not useful courses for the world of Most Work. Being able to talk about British foreign policy between the wars, the inherent problems of Kantian deontology or the structure of the brain has never been useful in a single job I have done, and likely never will be (yes, even the first one).
The thing is, the modern business structure is essentially split between highly specialized experts in certain fields, managerial types, and then all the work that cannot be done by a robot. The vast majority of today's work is work that cannot be done by a robot. You don't need more than basic literacy and maths to sign a contract, or work on a production line, or serve people in a store. And you don't need literature, or philosophy, or history, or the vast majority of subjects and knowledge most people have to be able to manage other people, or for most specialized fields (the sciences are of course an exception here, as is engineering and a few others).
But none of that really leads to a well-rounded person, does it? Plus, education is a tool for control, and the more people learn, even about apparently useless things, the better.
The flip side of that point of view, Cain, is that you don't just get hired because you have the skills. You also get hired for being a well-rounded person. And I think a lot of that occurs not only through studying interesting subjects but also how the educational process tends to improve people's social skills and self-awareness.
Don't you think personality makes or breaks it when there are a ton of workers with fairly similar skills and experience?
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein
I'm a big believer in the idea that people should have the opportunity to learn as much as possible, and it seems impossible to me to know what it is you would like to learn about in greater detail without getting a basic grounding in all the major areas. I think what school really does, more importantly than anything else, is teach you how to learn. It's certainly what I took away from it, more than anything else, and even if I don't tend to use advanced mathematics or the chemistry I learned in my day to day life, the skills I picked up learning those things I do use on a daily basis.
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on November 10, 2009, 11:09:04 AM
The flip side of that point of view, Cain, is that you don't just get hired because you have the skills. You also get hired for being a well-rounded person. And I think a lot of that occurs not only through studying interesting subjects but also how the educational process tends to improve people's social skills and self-awareness.
Don't you think personality makes or breaks it when there are a ton of workers with fairly similar skills and experience?
True, this can help a lot, especially at the moment.
But the instrumentalist approach to education that I see often neglects this, and even then I think there are things still worth knowing on their own merit (DS posted the quote I had in mind at the early time of the morning I was writing).
I was once given the rationale that including complicated mathematics in a general education isn't necessarily meant to give you mathematical skills directly, but instead to show you how to construct mental pathways that lead to improved general problem solving skills.
But I think a math teacher told me that, so there may have been some bias there.
in an effort to make this thread more "well rounded" i would like to add:
it's not what you know, it's who you know.
Quote from: rong on November 10, 2009, 09:11:31 PM
in an effort to make this thread more "well rounded" i would like to add:
it's not what you know, it's who you know.
:x I am so fucked in that regard. Any time I move to a new location, I make about a dozen, maximum two dozen, acquaintances outside my circle of actual friends, which number 1-4 wherever I go. Everyone else is boring and I never see any reason to connect with them.
Cainad, that is actually one of the social things the Internet is nearly as good for as IRL. The name kind of says it already, networking.
Seriously. You know a shitload of wide variety of people on PD, and most of them will give that littlebit extra if you ask them nicely and it's a small effort for them cause of their area of expertise, but would be really hard or expensive to get proper professional assistence with.
Same goes for other online communities and (ironically to a lesser extent), social networks.
I'm not saying that an online network acquaintance is worth as much as an IRL one (even though you may not meet the IRL ones that often either), but online it is easier to cast your net farther and wider, more targeted and more effectively.
In addition to that, moving around a lot should not be bad for your network either. Sure it will take some effort on your part to keep the contacts warm, but pick a few that are worth it, because having a connection somewhere far away can already be useful simply for the fact that they are far away, or that wherever you are in the world, you will have people somewhere near you?
my 2 ct