(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/LewisCarrollSelfPhoto.jpg/240px-LewisCarrollSelfPhoto.jpg)
I was talking to Payne about the author Lewis Carroll, and I learned something very interesting...
Cram I don't know much about the guy
Cram other than that he loved math and hid a lot of it in the books
Payne well this is it
Payne he WASN'T a guy
Payne his transparent effort to hide the fact that he was really a woman, for example
Payne cause you know he just switched his first and last names, right?
Payne cause who the fuck has a surname first and a first name second?
Idem are you guys talking about ayn rand
Payne CAROL FUCKING LEWIS, BITCHES
Payne well
Fred i thought his real name was charles or somethin
Cram wasn't that kind of common in that era?
Cram because women didn't write books
Payne maybe Men really being Women was
Payne not to mention his infamous Chain Dancing Video
Cram so is it just because he has a woman's first name as his last name?
Payne yes
Payne he just switched his names
after processing these data, I had a revelation...
Cram OMG
Cram ANNE FRANK IS REALLY A MAN
also....
FRANK HERBERT IS REALLY A MAN
How does him being a pedophile fit into this?
Quote from: Hoopla on April 14, 2010, 08:53:16 PM
How does him being a pedophile fit into this?
it's part of his (her?) identity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Carroll_identity
QuoteThe Lewis Carroll identity is an identity involving minors
Once you detect this custom of renaming yourself to obfuscate your identity, you start to see it everywhere...
zerogravitytits george washington was an obsessive washer
zerogravitytits also, a hemp smoker
Idem jane austen is really a city
JAMES GARFIELD IS REALLY A CAT
Idem abe lincoln is really a toy
Payne GEORGE BUSH IS REALLY AN UNTRIMMED PUBIC HAIRS
:lulz: Oh, fuck!
Quote from: Hoopla on April 14, 2010, 08:53:16 PM
How does him being a pedophile fit into this?
I really don't think he was. There is, as many people have pointed out, no evidence that he molested or was even sexually attracted to little girls, and some evidence that his "indiscretions" tended to be adulterous, which would have been a great deal more scandalous at the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/07/books/the-close-reader-what-was-on-lewis-carroll-s-mind.html?pagewanted=1
As I understand it he was in love with Alice Littell, maybe infatuated. It might not have progressed beyond that admiration to an actual physical relationship.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 14, 2010, 09:14:54 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on April 14, 2010, 08:53:16 PM
How does him being a pedophile fit into this?
I really don't think he was. There is, as many people have pointed out, no evidence that he molested or was even sexually attracted to little girls, and some evidence that his "indiscretions" tended to be adulterous, which would have been a great deal more scandalous at the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/07/books/the-close-reader-what-was-on-lewis-carroll-s-mind.html?pagewanted=1
Naw, I don't think he was. I was just joshing.
A lot of people have no idea how prevalent images of nude children were in the Victorian age.
but but but
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Carroll_identityThe Lewis Carroll identity is an identity involving minors
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/forumspecific/something-awful-eye.gif)
Quote from: Hoopla on April 14, 2010, 09:19:32 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 14, 2010, 09:14:54 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on April 14, 2010, 08:53:16 PM
How does him being a pedophile fit into this?
I really don't think he was. There is, as many people have pointed out, no evidence that he molested or was even sexually attracted to little girls, and some evidence that his "indiscretions" tended to be adulterous, which would have been a great deal more scandalous at the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/07/books/the-close-reader-what-was-on-lewis-carroll-s-mind.html?pagewanted=1
Naw, I don't think he was. I was just joshing.
A lot of people have no idea how prevalent images of nude children were in the Victorian age.
Oh, OK. :lol: It's not really relevant to the hilarity of this thread anyway, sorry for derailing!
Quote from: Cramulus on April 14, 2010, 09:20:52 PM
but but but
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Carroll_identityThe Lewis Carroll identity is an identity involving minors
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/forumspecific/something-awful-eye.gif)
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
You will not go un
punished!
Quote from: EoC on April 14, 2010, 09:18:20 PM
As I understand it he was in love with Alice Littell, maybe infatuated. It might not have progressed beyond that admiration to an actual physical relationship.
There's really no evidence of that, although there is some circumstantial evidence that he may have been in love with her mother.
Wasn't he the one who has gang raped by four boys in his boarding school? Not that that necessarily has any impact on him being a paedophile or not.
Quote from: Faust on April 15, 2010, 12:47:42 AM
Wasn't he the one who has gang raped by four boys in his boarding school? Not that that necessarily has any impact on him being a paedophile or not.
a surprising number of literary figures were gangbang victims
Quote from: Cramulus on April 15, 2010, 12:50:20 AM
Quote from: Faust on April 15, 2010, 12:47:42 AM
Wasn't he the one who has gang raped by four boys in his boarding school? Not that that necessarily has any impact on him being a paedophile or not.
a surprising number of literary figures were gangbang victims
Between that and the serial killer targeting bad fiction writers such as Robert jordan & David Gemmell just as they get to the final book in their series, writers really have it hard.
Quote from: Faust on April 15, 2010, 12:47:42 AM
Wasn't he the one who has gang raped by four boys in his boarding school? Not that that necessarily has any impact on him being a paedophile or not.
He did hate boarding school and vaguely alluded to being bothered by "nighttime disturbances", which many have speculated were some kind of sexual abuse.
I can't imagine being in an all-boys boarding school during that time could have been fun no matter whether there was sexual abuse.
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on April 15, 2010, 02:27:39 AM
I can't imagine being in an all-boys boarding school during that time could have been fun no matter whether there was sexual abuse.
Eeek, I know. But people have really fixated on Lewis Carroll over the years, ascribing all kinds of weird motivations/experiences to him which there isn't any evidence of really. I think it's because of the holy shit WHOA TRIPPY nature of Alice In Wonderland; they just didn't get it, and, as is normal for our species, felt the need to believe him a deviant freak because the idea that a normal person could produce a piece of writing that out there really messes with our minds.
you have to admit though, the imagery in his fiction is consistent with the profile of a forced figging victim.
Quote from: Cramulus on April 15, 2010, 03:04:09 AM
you have to admit though, the imagery in his fiction is consistent with the profile of a forced figging victim.
:lulz:
Quote from: Cramulus on April 14, 2010, 08:58:25 PM
Once you detect this custom of renaming yourself to obfuscate your identity, you start to see it everywhere...
zerogravitytits george washington was an obsessive washer
zerogravitytits also, a hemp smoker
Idem jane austen is really a city
JAMES GARFIELD IS REALLY A CAT
Idem abe lincoln is really a toy
Payne GEORGE BUSH IS REALLY AN UNTRIMMED PUBIC HAIRS
i love this :horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth:
moar
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 14, 2010, 09:14:54 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on April 14, 2010, 08:53:16 PM
How does him being a pedophile fit into this?
I really don't think he was. There is, as many people have pointed out, no evidence that he molested or was even sexually attracted to little girls, and some evidence that his "indiscretions" tended to be adulterous, which would have been a great deal more scandalous at the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/07/books/the-close-reader-what-was-on-lewis-carroll-s-mind.html?pagewanted=1
No evidence huh? At all? huh?
(http://www.davidokane.com/photography/carroll%20and%20alice%20kissing.jpg)
Hmm.
Quote from: Lysergic on April 15, 2010, 07:26:58 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 14, 2010, 09:14:54 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on April 14, 2010, 08:53:16 PM
How does him being a pedophile fit into this?
I really don't think he was. There is, as many people have pointed out, no evidence that he molested or was even sexually attracted to little girls, and some evidence that his "indiscretions" tended to be adulterous, which would have been a great deal more scandalous at the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/07/books/the-close-reader-what-was-on-lewis-carroll-s-mind.html?pagewanted=1
No evidence huh? At all? huh?
(http://www.davidokane.com/photography/carroll%20and%20alice%20kissing.jpg)
Hmm.
Obvious shoop is obvious.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 15, 2010, 08:14:13 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on April 15, 2010, 07:26:58 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 14, 2010, 09:14:54 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on April 14, 2010, 08:53:16 PM
How does him being a pedophile fit into this?
I really don't think he was. There is, as many people have pointed out, no evidence that he molested or was even sexually attracted to little girls, and some evidence that his "indiscretions" tended to be adulterous, which would have been a great deal more scandalous at the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/07/books/the-close-reader-what-was-on-lewis-carroll-s-mind.html?pagewanted=1
No evidence huh? At all? huh?
(http://www.davidokane.com/photography/carroll%20and%20alice%20kissing.jpg)
Hmm.
Obvious shoop is obvious.
Yeah, keep telling yourself that, it will make the pain of the horrible truth easier to handle.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1142/was-lewis-carroll-a-perv
QuoteIn 1880 Dodgson gave up photography forever. Too much heat? Nobody knows, although around the same time he got flak for kissing one of his girl friends. At any rate the nude photos and plates were returned to the families of the subjects or destroyed on his death. It was long thought that none survived.
But then four turned up. For this we can thank Morton Cohen, who unearthed the photos and published them in his Lewis Carroll: A Biography (1995). One is of a little girl named Evelyn Hatch in a pose that, were Evelyn older or Cecil weirder, would be seductive. As it is I can imagine Evelyn's parents thinking: that Rev. Dodgson, he is one amusing fellow. But he'd better keep his mitts to himself.
dont some people even believe the Shroud of Turin is really just a early photocopy of someone's face
Quote from: Cramulus on April 15, 2010, 12:50:20 AM
Quote from: Faust on April 15, 2010, 12:47:42 AM
Wasn't he the one who has gang raped by four boys in his boarding school? Not that that necessarily has any impact on him being a paedophile or not.
a surprising number of literary figures were gangbang victims
It used to be part of the curriculum, a prerequisite for literacy. Called "dipping the quill". It was in fact an early 20th century Russian behavioural scientist named P. Komstokdan conducting controversial experiments involving mental patients and, for some reason, horses, who demonstrated the lack of educational value of this time-worn practice.
And Lewis Carroll (or Carol Lewis) was also, Jack the Ripper.According the the well respected Spag/Ripperologist* Richard Wallace, he hid anagrams proving that Carroll admitted to being the 'orrible serial killer. Strong evidence like:
Quote'So she wondered away, through the wood, carrying the ugly little thing with her. And a great job it was to keep hold of it, it wriggled about so. But at last she found out that the proper way was to keep tight hold of itself foot and its right ear'. - Nursery Alice
When correctly translated is obviously:
Quote'She wriggled about so! But at last Dodgson and Bayne found a way to keep hold of the fat little whore. I got a tight hold of her and slit her throat, left ear to right. It was tough, wet, disgusting, too. So weary of it, they threw up - jack the Ripper.'
* :lulz:
Quote from: Cramulus on April 15, 2010, 03:04:09 AM
you have to admit though, the imagery in his fiction is consistent with the profile of a forced figging victim.
True, look what it did to Aini. :fap:
Quote from: Lysergic on April 15, 2010, 08:58:13 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 15, 2010, 08:14:13 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on April 15, 2010, 07:26:58 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 14, 2010, 09:14:54 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on April 14, 2010, 08:53:16 PM
How does him being a pedophile fit into this?
I really don't think he was. There is, as many people have pointed out, no evidence that he molested or was even sexually attracted to little girls, and some evidence that his "indiscretions" tended to be adulterous, which would have been a great deal more scandalous at the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/07/books/the-close-reader-what-was-on-lewis-carroll-s-mind.html?pagewanted=1
No evidence huh? At all? huh?
(http://www.davidokane.com/photography/carroll%20and%20alice%20kissing.jpg)
Hmm.
Obvious shoop is obvious.
Yeah, keep telling yourself that, it will make the pain of the horrible truth easier to handle.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1142/was-lewis-carroll-a-perv
QuoteIn 1880 Dodgson gave up photography forever. Too much heat? Nobody knows, although around the same time he got flak for kissing one of his girl friends. At any rate the nude photos and plates were returned to the families of the subjects or destroyed on his death. It was long thought that none survived.
But then four turned up. For this we can thank Morton Cohen, who unearthed the photos and published them in his Lewis Carroll: A Biography (1995). One is of a little girl named Evelyn Hatch in a pose that, were Evelyn older or Cecil weirder, would be seductive. As it is I can imagine Evelyn's parents thinking: that Rev. Dodgson, he is one amusing fellow. But he'd better keep his mitts to himself.
Lys, I can't tell if you're playing straight man, or if you're serious. Carroll's nudes of little girls are well-known, there are are scholarly analyses of him and his work that are far more educational (and accurate) than some guy named Cecil on a website.
Also,
(http://thames.me.uk/s01550_files/image020.jpg)
Duh.
One look at her hand on his shoulder should blast any ideas that the image wasn't shopped. I mean, come on.
Quote from: Hoopla on April 15, 2010, 04:48:28 PM
One look at her hand on his shoulder should blast any ideas that the image wasn't shopped. I mean, come on.
I know, right? :lulz:
Here's the source image for Carroll:
(http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/pics/carroll.jpg)
I have to question the motivation for whoever shopped that image.
So you're saying the Straight Dope was on Dope?
:lulz:
If they are basing their opinion on that image, then hell yes.
Here is the transcript and supporting statistics of a very good talk given by Edward Wakeling: http://www.lewiscarroll-site.com/
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 15, 2010, 04:59:55 PM
Here's the source image for Carroll:
(http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/pics/carroll.jpg)
Your detective skills and logic and reasoning appear to be functioning well.
You win.
To be honest, I was never entirely sure and haven't made up my mind to date, I was just throwing the other side out there.
I'll agree, he probably wasn't that bad, he just enjoyed the company of little girls, good on him.
I'm sure he was his eras Michael Jackson in a ways.
No offense to Michael, I don't think he molested kids but he really liked having them, uh, close, and people took advantage of him cus he was a freak and people knew he was willing to settle if they threatened him with court.
Sorry, probably a bit of an irrelevant tangent, but I just thought I'd get that off my chest.
I like Michael Jackson. There I said it.
The interesting thing is that he only became "creepified" in retrospect, after the social mores changed and images of nude children started being perceived, instead of icons of purity and innocence as they were in Carroll's time, as kiddie porn material. During his time it was considered far more scandalous (and there is evidence that his falling-out with the Liddell family was over this) that he might be using the innocent companionship of the children as an "in" with which to woo the governess.
In this day and age, it is considered peculiar for men to have child friends. Oddly, it is not considered peculiar for women to have child friends, perhaps because it's a reflection of the assumption of "maternal instinct".
is it still considered sex if the child's entire body passes through your vagina?
Quote from: Cramulus on April 15, 2010, 06:43:23 PM
is it still considered sex if the child's entire body passes through your vagina?
Well, it is a fact that some women do get off while giving birth...
In the late nineteenth century,"Age of consent" referred to the legal age at which a girl could consent to sexual relations. Men who engaged in sexual relations with girls who had not reached the age of consent could be criminally prosecuted. American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen, although their ultimate goal was to raise the age to eighteen. The campaign was eventually quite successful; by 1920, almost all states had raised the age of consent to sixteen or eighteen.
http://womhist.alexanderstreet.com/teacher/aoc.htm
Some perspective on 19th century law, changing attitudes etc.
Quote from: Lysergic on April 15, 2010, 08:20:33 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 15, 2010, 06:43:23 PM
is it still considered sex if the child's entire body passes through your vagina?
Well, it is a fact that some women do get off while giving birth...
Do tell...
Quote from: Hoopla on April 15, 2010, 10:24:52 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on April 15, 2010, 08:20:33 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 15, 2010, 06:43:23 PM
is it still considered sex if the child's entire body passes through your vagina?
Well, it is a fact that some women do get off while giving birth...
Do tell...
http://www.orgasmicbirth.com/
Need I say more?
The editor of The Annotated Alice has something to say on this subject (with citations from his letters and such), but my copy is at home. I will find it and retype it later.
Quote from: Lysergic on April 15, 2010, 10:26:59 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on April 15, 2010, 10:24:52 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on April 15, 2010, 08:20:33 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 15, 2010, 06:43:23 PM
is it still considered sex if the child's entire body passes through your vagina?
Well, it is a fact that some women do get off while giving birth...
Do tell...
http://www.orgasmicbirth.com/
Need I say more?
"Orgasmic" birth involves some very lucky women experiencing birth-labor uterine contractions the same way (if more overpoweringly) as they experience orgasm uterine contractions. It does happen, albeit sadly infrequently... for most women they feel like vastly more painful and intense versions of the contractions responsible for menstrual period uterine cramping. I'm curious whether the women who experience labor orgasms also find menstrual cramps pleasurable, or if it's somehow related to pregnancy hormones? Sometimes women orgasm while breastfeeding. Has nothing to do with pedophilia, though; it's just a response to biochemistry that has evolved to make the birth and breastfeeding ordeal less traumatizing so that women are willing to do it more than once.
FWIW, me and most women I know had amazingly increased sex drives and magnificently magnified orgasms through the midportions of pregnancy (after the feeling sick stopped) but by that last six weeks sexuality became this huge, generalized sensation of constant vague arousal/irritation/discomfort and orgasm became impossible. That was frustrating.
I totally wanted to have sex up through the final few weeks, but after the baby drops... yeah. No.
orgasmic birth is pedophilia
prove me wrong
Quote from: Cramulus on April 16, 2010, 05:06:22 PM
orgasmic birth is pedophilia
prove me wrong
:lulz:
but seriously, I have considered having another child just for second-trimester orgasms. Holy shit! No, seriously. It's like your whole torso is having an orgasm, only better.
Does that make me a perv?
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 16, 2010, 06:01:19 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 16, 2010, 05:06:22 PM
orgasmic birth is pedophilia
prove me wrong
:lulz:
but seriously, I have considered having another child just for second-trimester orgasms. Holy shit! No, seriously. It's like your whole torso is having an orgasm, only better.
Does that make me a perv?
:wrong:
That is exactly what it makes you, along with anyone in a twenty meter radius.
Ooooh
twenty meters covers three sets of neighbors, and they're all HOT.
Quote from: Cramulus on April 16, 2010, 05:06:22 PM
orgasmic birth is pedophilia
prove me wrong
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/05136/unbirthoq6.gif [possibly NSFW]
Quote from: Triple Zero on April 16, 2010, 06:38:21 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on April 16, 2010, 05:06:22 PM
orgasmic birth is pedophilia
prove me wrong
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/05136/unbirthoq6.gif [possibly NSFW]
WHOA
You people are WEIRD.
I have no idea who people those are. I saved the pic to my photobucket years ago, it must have been from POEE.