"Dok, have you noticed that the homeless people have by and large disappeared? Where have they gone? What the hell is going on in this town?"
- Nurse Mayhem, pointing out the obvious.
That's a good question, though one that is probably better left unanswered. Rumors fly that they have found something sinister to worship, far to the East of the legal district, their normal haunt. Sounds like something out of H.P. Lovecraft or Ashton Clark, right? Well, this is Tucson, Eris' most Holy City, and anything - anything - is possible.
Our police look strained, and thank God they started cleaning up their act five years ago. Residents are beginning to trust them, and have approached them with all manner of unreal shit. Cults are springing up all over town, including a particularly odd one at a "club" called "Desert Dominion", purportedly an S&M club in The Maze, not far from the fuel storage farm. The cult of the Black Madonna is supposed to be thriving again as well, though nobody can prove a damn thing (the "temple" I found 3 months ago could be in use, or it could have been abandoned years ago...except for the smashed electronics all around the wooden slab in the center of the courtyard.).
Gang violence is up, though it's almost exclusively internal to any given gang. Power struggles and the like. 12th Street South of Ajo is littered with bodies weekly. This, at least, is nothing new...except that the gangs usually attack each other. Even the Dirty Boys on Grant Road aren't out.
The Tohono Odham are staying on their reservation. There was no sirrocco this year, and that's a bad sign, apparently...Summer should be here, and it's still acting like early March. Bear in mind that they are normally no more superstitious than you or I. Bad times are coming, one told me in the parking lot of the casino, and it's best to stick near your tribe.
It all fills me with a sense of foreboding. People turning to weird cults, paranoid Indians, bikers hunkering down, gang killings just for the hell of it...and no reason for any of it.
But what of it? This is Eris' Holy City, this is the town she built, and I suppose she can do whatever she likes with it. And what Discordian would flee from this? Not I, and not my friends. It still hasn't gotten weird enough for me.
Okay For Now,
Dok
It's interesting, how impossible it is to find pictures of it on the Internet. I know where the homeless people went; not just the tent city that we all know about (it's illegal to be homeless, you know) but the rest of it; the slums that we pretend only exist in India and Mexico, and the rest of it; the disappearing. We don't do that in America, you know. Just like we don't have slums made out of cardboard and tinned steel.
You know where the homeless people went, too, you just don't want to know. They were undocumented; they didn't have ID. Nobody was there to ask after them. They were the human refuse of a civilized society. One upon a time they would have been Calamity Jane and the Nigger General, but there's no room for that kind of people in today's modern society, so they were put out with the waste, weren't they? I think we all know what happened. It's easy to hide bodies in the desert, in the wide open. Someday there will be a future archaeologist who will wonder about the mass graves, and maybe it will all be uncovered.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 06:49:45 PM
It's interesting, how impossible it is to find pictures of it on the Internet. I know where the homeless people went; not just the tent city that we all know about (it's illegal to be homeless, you know) but the rest of it; the slums that we pretend only exist in India and Mexico, and the rest of it; the disappearing. We don't do that in America, you know. Just like we don't have slums made out of cardboard and tinned steel.
You know where the homeless people went, too, you just don't want to know. They were undocumented; they didn't have ID. Nobody was there to ask after them. They were the human refuse of a civilized society. One upon a time they would have been Calamity Jane and the Nigger General, but there's no room for that kind of people in today's modern society, so they were put out with the waste, weren't they? I think we all know what happened. It's easy to hide bodies in the desert, in the wide open. Someday there will be a future archaeologist who will wonder about the mass graves, and maybe it will all be uncovered.
I could see that happening in Maricopa County, Nigel, but not here. At least I hope not. Tucson is famous for their treatment of the homeless...Hell, police cruisers carry boxes of bottled water for them...and there's THOUSANDS of them, so it's probably not the work of some psycho.
But when I was on the jury, I'd walk the legal district on lunch...and I saw a few dozen, not the hordes I'm used to seeing, so I really hope you're wrong.
But the trains, Nigel, they run through town every 15 minutes, and they all stop at the Dodge Road yard. If I were a homeless person and wanted to put some distance between myself and Tucson, why, I'd just head over to the yard and hop in a boxcar. But why would they do that? We don't hassle them, they do okay panhandling, the city won't let them starve or die of thirst, and it's always warm here. Why would they leave?
What, exactly, is the Cult of the Black Madonna?
Quote from: Requia ☣ on April 19, 2010, 06:58:48 PM
What, exactly, is the Cult of the Black Madonna?
Nobody's really sure. It goes back to the 1880s, apparently, and seems restricted to the region stretching from Metro Tucson to Tombstone. I've found what appears to be one of their shrines (creepy as fuck, mind you), but neither I nor nobody I've ever heard of has seen anyone at them, or met anyone claiming to be a member. Nothing is known about their beliefs, other than the Black Madonna is NOT an aspect of the Virgin Mary, and it has no connection to the Black Madonna Catholic sub-cult found throughout Central America.
There's all kinds of legends, myths, and bar tales, of course, but it's always one of those "I know a guy who knows a guy" things. I am now even more interested in tracking this down.
Apparently some of the gnostic groups from way back were referred to as cults of the Black Madonna or Black Virgin, because of the association with Mary Magdeline. I have *no* idea how a gnostic cult could have sprung up in 1880s Tuscon though.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on April 19, 2010, 07:06:27 PM
Apparently some of the gnostic groups from way back were referred to as cults of the Black Madonna or Black Virgin, because of the association with Mary Magdeline. I have *no* idea how a gnostic cult could have sprung up in 1880s Tuscon though.
You have to remember that this was the crossroads of the continent for a short period of time, at about that point.
That's why we have such a weird cultural mix here.
But here's the thing, Requia...What I found at that shrine was carefully arranged electronics, each piece deliberately rendered inoperable in some fashion or another. The shrine itself was a wooden slab, and a madonna carved out of wood, and stained black (or perhaps just aged and covered with soot).
After Manzanar, I wouldn't put anything past the Feds. Maybe it's a lime pit, maybe a slave farm, if Nigel's right. A few thousand acres in all directions, shoot the unlikely hikers, clean up nice and no one would know.
Cults are a scary option too. The rats always leave the sinking ship first. No need to stoically, horribly die like a stoic horrible english. They've got their ear to the hull, the bilge and the fittings too, which are usually where the sinking starts.
Come to think of it, cane/neckbrace guy, the 7-11 jingler, and "SPAAAARE chaaaange" haven't been around in boston...
Quote from: Richter on April 19, 2010, 07:14:23 PM
After Manzanar, I wouldn't put anything past the Feds. Maybe it's a lime pit, maybe a slave farm, if Nigel's right. A few thousand acres in all directions, shoot the unlikely hikers, clean up nice and no one would know.
Cults are a scary option too. The rats always leave the sinking ship first. No need to stoically, horribly die like a stoic horrible english. They've got their ear to the hull, the bilge and the fittings too, which are usually where the sinking starts.
Come to think of it, cane/neckbrace guy, the 7-11 jingler, and "SPAAAARE chaaaange" haven't been around in boston...
Heh. Try actively looking for them.
Amazing...the invisible people really ARE invisible. You can only notice their absence.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 06:55:08 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 06:49:45 PM
It's interesting, how impossible it is to find pictures of it on the Internet. I know where the homeless people went; not just the tent city that we all know about (it's illegal to be homeless, you know) but the rest of it; the slums that we pretend only exist in India and Mexico, and the rest of it; the disappearing. We don't do that in America, you know. Just like we don't have slums made out of cardboard and tinned steel.
You know where the homeless people went, too, you just don't want to know. They were undocumented; they didn't have ID. Nobody was there to ask after them. They were the human refuse of a civilized society. One upon a time they would have been Calamity Jane and the Nigger General, but there's no room for that kind of people in today's modern society, so they were put out with the waste, weren't they? I think we all know what happened. It's easy to hide bodies in the desert, in the wide open. Someday there will be a future archaeologist who will wonder about the mass graves, and maybe it will all be uncovered.
I could see that happening in Maricopa County, Nigel, but not here. At least I hope not. Tucson is famous for their treatment of the homeless...Hell, police cruisers carry boxes of bottled water for them...and there's THOUSANDS of them, so it's probably not the work of some psycho.
But when I was on the jury, I'd walk the legal district on lunch...and I saw a few dozen, not the hordes I'm used to seeing, so I really hope you're wrong.
But the trains, Nigel, they run through town every 15 minutes, and they all stop at the Dodge Road yard. If I were a homeless person and wanted to put some distance between myself and Tucson, why, I'd just head over to the yard and hop in a boxcar. But why would they do that? We don't hassle them, they do okay panhandling, the city won't let them starve or die of thirst, and it's always warm here. Why would they leave?
They wouldn't leave, Roger. Would you?
They're not going anywhere else. And maybe it's not the cops. Maybe they're joining cults, maybe the Black Madonna is drawing them in and they're living in one of the undocumented, impossible-to-find shanty towns we've all seen but can't find pictures of. Maybe they're building a new one, out in the desert, maybe the birth of a city is happening Old West style and nobody, not even the government, knows enough about it to shut it down. Because they will, if they know. Can't have those who got nothing building something, or pretty soon everyone will start to think they can do it. Just like Dignity Village here, they'll come in and tear it down. Isn't to
code, you see.
Find pictures. See if you can. You know what I mean, you've seen it. There are two places they could be, Roger; they found a new place to build, or they're in a big, big ditch in the desert. Got any satellite blackout areas out there? That's where I'd look.
Almost all the gnostic books were destroyed by either the Catholics or the Muslims in a a millennium long purge of the faith. It wasn't until a secret cache of the things was uncovered in the 20th century that more than a few scraps and the propaganda of the Orthodoxy were available to work off of. In particular, not much was known about Magdeline's role, which is key to the 'black madonna' groups. Of course, they could be going off the propaganda, or just heard the name and thought it was a good thing to base a cult off of.
I have even less idea why a gnostic group, or any group from the 19th century, would destroy electronics in a ritual. Possible matrix link?
Shit, let me know what you find. My curiosity is well and truly peaked now.
Isn't to fucking code, you know. Can't have people living in it. No, that's like raising your kid in Forest Park; has to be stopped. http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/06/289883.shtml
(http://cdsg.groups.pdx.edu/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php/projects/past/digvil_aerial.jpg)
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:17:42 PM
Find pictures. See if you can. You know what I mean, you've seen it. There are two places they could be, Roger; they found a new place to build, or they're in a big, big ditch in the desert. Got any satellite blackout areas out there? That's where I'd look.
Good thinking. I think I'll hit Google Earth, and see which areas are either blacked out or longest-running (ie, haven't been updated in a while). Can't do it from here, though.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on April 19, 2010, 07:21:24 PM
Almost all the gnostic books were destroyed by either the Catholics or the Muslims in a a millennium long purge of the faith. It wasn't until a secret cache of the things was uncovered in the 20th century that more than a few scraps and the propaganda of the Orthodoxy were available to work off of. In particular, not much was known about Magdeline's role, which is key to the 'black madonna' groups. Of course, they could be going off the propaganda, or just heard the name and thought it was a good thing to base a cult off of.
I have even less idea why a gnostic group, or any group from the 19th century, would destroy electronics in a ritual. Possible matrix link?
Shit, let me know what you find. My curiosity is well and truly peaked now.
Or it's something else entirely. This isn't a wholesome city.
I'll let you know if I find anything.
I don't know shit about the Arizona Black Madonna, but St. Luke painted a black Madonna which was revived sometime in the medieval period I think. I will look it up and provide more info.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:21:45 PM
Isn't to fucking code, you know. Can't have people living in it. No, that's like raising your kid in Forest Park; has to be stopped. http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/06/289883.shtml
I can see not allowing residence in a park, to some degree.
But what happened to Dignity Village?
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:24:52 PM
I don't know shit about the Arizona Black Madonna, but St. Luke painted a black Madonna which was revived sometime in the medieval period I think. I will look it up and provide more info.
Thanks. My internet search capabilities are kinda hamstrung, here.
Of course, none of this deals with the other people that are acting strangely.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on April 19, 2010, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:24:52 PM
I don't know shit about the Arizona Black Madonna, but St. Luke painted a black Madonna which was revived sometime in the medieval period I think. I will look it up and provide more info.
There's a bunch of stuff like those, but thats pretty much just Catholicism with pictures to look like different ethnicities, it's not any more noteworthy than a white Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna
What
I am talking about the Polish one which raised quite a stir in the 14th century, as rather few Poles are Negro, know what I mean?
This would be a good time to not pretend that your ability to look at Wikipedia constitutes expert status, girlie. Also I am in a mood and looking for a fight.
Storm's coming. Big one if it's getting people to clue in too.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 07:23:49 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on April 19, 2010, 07:21:24 PM
Almost all the gnostic books were destroyed by either the Catholics or the Muslims in a a millennium long purge of the faith. It wasn't until a secret cache of the things was uncovered in the 20th century that more than a few scraps and the propaganda of the Orthodoxy were available to work off of. In particular, not much was known about Magdeline's role, which is key to the 'black madonna' groups. Of course, they could be going off the propaganda, or just heard the name and thought it was a good thing to base a cult off of.
I have even less idea why a gnostic group, or any group from the 19th century, would destroy electronics in a ritual. Possible matrix link?
Shit, let me know what you find. My curiosity is well and truly peaked now.
Or it's something else entirely. This isn't a wholesome city.
I'll let you know if I find anything.
Careful Dok. If it's coming down to THAT now, it isn't the kind of thing you can find out about and walk away from. It won't be "Neverwhere" or "The Invisibles" glamorous, but it'll still be a line that doesn't like to be crossed.
Quote from: Richter on April 19, 2010, 07:37:58 PM
Storm's coming. Big one if it's getting people to clue in too.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 07:23:49 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on April 19, 2010, 07:21:24 PM
Almost all the gnostic books were destroyed by either the Catholics or the Muslims in a a millennium long purge of the faith. It wasn't until a secret cache of the things was uncovered in the 20th century that more than a few scraps and the propaganda of the Orthodoxy were available to work off of. In particular, not much was known about Magdeline's role, which is key to the 'black madonna' groups. Of course, they could be going off the propaganda, or just heard the name and thought it was a good thing to base a cult off of.
I have even less idea why a gnostic group, or any group from the 19th century, would destroy electronics in a ritual. Possible matrix link?
Shit, let me know what you find. My curiosity is well and truly peaked now.
Or it's something else entirely. This isn't a wholesome city.
I'll let you know if I find anything.
Careful Dok. If it's coming down to THAT now, it isn't the kind of thing you can find out about and walk away from. It won't be "Neverwhere" or "The Invisibles" glamorous, but it'll still be a line that doesn't like to be crossed.
Not too worried, Richter, but thanks for your concern.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 07:37:20 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:35:25 PM
This would be a good time to not pretend that your ability to look at Wikipedia constitutes expert status, girlie. Also I am in a mood and looking for a fight.
While I understand the urge, could you possibly do it somewhere else?
And what happened to Dignity Village? And where did all the people go?
They relocated, and are still fighting for the chance to build and live in structures.
Yes, that's right.
The chance to build and live in structures. Because that's illegal, in today's America, unless you have a couple hundred thousand to throw down.
I also remember reading about how some so-called "occult" lodges used to disguise their rituals in Christian trappings... The Cult of the Black Madonna has been linked to darker, more insidious belief systems of the vengeful, all-consuming Mother Death archetype. Of course, most of this could be rumor mongering, but apparently their rituals are similar, but a little creepier, to Santeria.
I don't know what the circuit boards have to do with anything, but I'd be careful. Those fuckers are probably pretty crazy.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:40:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 07:37:20 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:35:25 PM
This would be a good time to not pretend that your ability to look at Wikipedia constitutes expert status, girlie. Also I am in a mood and looking for a fight.
While I understand the urge, could you possibly do it somewhere else?
And what happened to Dignity Village? And where did all the people go?
They relocated, and are still fighting for the chance to build and live in structures.
Yes, that's right. The chance to build and live in structures. Because that's illegal, in today's America, unless you have a couple hundred thousand to throw down.
I see. The official excuse would involve fire codes, etc, so it's better to subject them to the random knifings and beatings on the street. Am I barking up the right tree?
Quote from: LMNO on April 19, 2010, 07:42:39 PM
I also remember reading about how some so-called "occult" lodges used to disguise their rituals in Christian trappings... The Cult of the Black Madonna has been linked to darker, more insidious belief systems of the vengeful, all-consuming Mother Death archetype. Of course, most of this could be rumor mongering, but apparently their rituals are similar, but a little creepier, to Santeria.
I don't know what the circuit boards have to do with anything, but I'd be careful. Those fuckers are probably pretty crazy.
I'll go prepared, of course, but I doubt it will be necessary. I'm also after getting into that S&M club a week from Wednesday, to see what's up.
Quote from: LMNO on April 19, 2010, 07:42:39 PM
I also remember reading about how some so-called "occult" lodges used to disguise their rituals in Christian trappings... The Cult of the Black Madonna has been linked to darker, more insidious belief systems of the vengeful, all-consuming Mother Death archetype. Of course, most of this could be rumor mongering, but apparently their rituals are similar, but a little creepier, to Santeria.
I don't know what the circuit boards have to do with anything, but I'd be careful. Those fuckers are probably pretty crazy.
Santeria is very popular here, and it's really not at all creepy.
I need to know more about the Black Madonna cult though.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 07:43:36 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:40:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 07:37:20 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:35:25 PM
This would be a good time to not pretend that your ability to look at Wikipedia constitutes expert status, girlie. Also I am in a mood and looking for a fight.
While I understand the urge, could you possibly do it somewhere else?
And what happened to Dignity Village? And where did all the people go?
They relocated, and are still fighting for the chance to build and live in structures.
Yes, that's right. The chance to build and live in structures. Because that's illegal, in today's America, unless you have a couple hundred thousand to throw down.
I see. The official excuse would involve fire codes, etc, so it's better to subject them to the random knifings and beatings on the street. Am I barking up the right tree?
The exact right tree, Dok.
FWIW Portland has a very active Santero population and also received a lot of New Orleans refugees so now has a lot of Vodoun as well, and there is really, really for real nothing at all creepy about either. Certainly vastly less creepy than the goddamned Revival tent churches. Hate those motherfucks.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:46:18 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 07:43:36 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:40:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 07:37:20 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:35:25 PM
This would be a good time to not pretend that your ability to look at Wikipedia constitutes expert status, girlie. Also I am in a mood and looking for a fight.
While I understand the urge, could you possibly do it somewhere else?
And what happened to Dignity Village? And where did all the people go?
They relocated, and are still fighting for the chance to build and live in structures.
Yes, that's right. The chance to build and live in structures. Because that's illegal, in today's America, unless you have a couple hundred thousand to throw down.
I see. The official excuse would involve fire codes, etc, so it's better to subject them to the random knifings and beatings on the street. Am I barking up the right tree?
The exact right tree, Dok.
The reasoning being that they can always go to a shelter, where they'll be abused nightly by big halfwit employees named Jake. I've heard this story before.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:48:49 PM
FWIW Portland has a very active Santero population and also received a lot of New Orleans refugees so now has a lot of Vodoun as well, and there is really, really for real nothing at all creepy about either. Certainly vastly less creepy than the goddamned Revival tent churches. Hate those motherfucks.
Santeria is practiced openly in Tucson, as is Voodoo, and several West African cults (in the old sense of the term), as we have enormous Hispanic, Caribbean, and West African populations here.
I don't think it's any of those, though it might be an offshoot.
Can't just let people built shelters on unused ground. Something might happen to them. Something bad.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:57:25 PM
Can't just let people built shelters on unused ground. Something might happen to them. Something bad.
Odds are, it's a liability issue in some cases. Also, squatters rights can get interesting, legally.
But most of the time, I think it's just reflexive cruelty.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 07:54:32 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:48:49 PM
FWIW Portland has a very active Santero population and also received a lot of New Orleans refugees so now has a lot of Vodoun as well, and there is really, really for real nothing at all creepy about either. Certainly vastly less creepy than the goddamned Revival tent churches. Hate those motherfucks.
Santeria is practiced openly in Tucson, as is Voodoo, and several West African cults (in the old sense of the term), as we have enormous Hispanic, Caribbean, and West African populations here.
I don't think it's any of those, though it might be an offshoot.
From what little I've researched so far, I don't think it's an offshoot. I think it's a version of a significantly older religion; possibly the earliest Judeo-Islamic-Christian goddess-worshipping religion.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:59:37 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 07:54:32 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 07:48:49 PM
FWIW Portland has a very active Santero population and also received a lot of New Orleans refugees so now has a lot of Vodoun as well, and there is really, really for real nothing at all creepy about either. Certainly vastly less creepy than the goddamned Revival tent churches. Hate those motherfucks.
Santeria is practiced openly in Tucson, as is Voodoo, and several West African cults (in the old sense of the term), as we have enormous Hispanic, Caribbean, and West African populations here.
I don't think it's any of those, though it might be an offshoot.
From what little I've researched so far, I don't think it's an offshoot. I think it's a version of a significantly older religion; possibly the earliest Judeo-Islamic-Christian goddess-worshipping religion.
If so, I'd be interested to find out why they had destroyed electronics all around the shrine.
I have found links to Poland and France in the 1400's. There is very little available.
It's hard sorting through the bullshit, of which there is much. New Age and Wiccan whores want to draw retard connections, and there's a lot of that. I might have to resort to a physical library; fortunately E. is a science librarian.
I am interested in the fact that the originator of this image used encaustic, which I'm trying to learn right now.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Czestochowska.jpg/410px-Czestochowska.jpg)
Is that.... Is that ritual scarification on Mary's face there?
I have found a few references to it being a death cult, but cannot verify.
The Arizona link may be through the Lady of Guadalupe.
Describe the shrines, please.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 08:15:33 PM
The Arizona link may be through the Lady of Guadalupe.
Describe the shrines, please.
I wondered about that myself, but thought it had been bought up earlier in the thread. Maybe I imagined it though, if so, my bad.
Quote from: LMNO on April 19, 2010, 08:13:16 PM
Is that.... Is that ritual scarification on Mary's face there?
Yes, I also wondered what that signified. According to the Wiki article:
QuoteThe legend concerning the two scars on the Black Madonna's right cheek is that the Hussites stormed the Pauline monastery in 1430, plundering the sanctuary. Among the items stolen was the icon. After putting it in their wagon, the Hussites tried to get away but their horses refused to move. They threw the portrait down to the ground and one of the plunderers drew his sword upon the image and inflicted two deep strikes. When the robber tried to inflict a third strike, he fell to the ground and squirmed in agony until his death. Despite past attempts to repair these scars, they had difficulty in covering up those slashes (as they found out that the painting was painted with tempera infused with diluted wax). In commemoration of the attack, two slashes on her right cheek were made by a pen.[1]
Another legend states that, as the robber struck the painting twice, the face of the Virgin Mary started to bleed; in a panic, the scared Hussites retreated and left the painting.[citation needed
Might have been. I am tired; I stayed up late.
EOT might be useful in this thread, as a comparative religions scholar.
Quote from: Cain on April 19, 2010, 08:17:58 PM
Quote from: LMNO on April 19, 2010, 08:13:16 PM
Is that.... Is that ritual scarification on Mary's face there?
Yes, I also wondered what that signified. According to the Wiki article:
QuoteThe legend concerning the two scars on the Black Madonna's right cheek is that the Hussites stormed the Pauline monastery in 1430, plundering the sanctuary. Among the items stolen was the icon. After putting it in their wagon, the Hussites tried to get away but their horses refused to move. They threw the portrait down to the ground and one of the plunderers drew his sword upon the image and inflicted two deep strikes. When the robber tried to inflict a third strike, he fell to the ground and squirmed in agony until his death. Despite past attempts to repair these scars, they had difficulty in covering up those slashes (as they found out that the painting was painted with tempera infused with diluted wax). In commemoration of the attack, two slashes on her right cheek were made by a pen.[1]
Another legend states that, as the robber struck the painting twice, the face of the Virgin Mary started to bleed; in a panic, the scared Hussites retreated and left the painting.[citation needed
Do you think there's any chance that this might have been misinterpreted/taken too far by fever-eyed True Believers? I only ask because I'm pretty sure I've seen that pattern of scars before.
Quote from: LMNO on April 19, 2010, 08:20:00 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 19, 2010, 08:17:58 PM
Quote from: LMNO on April 19, 2010, 08:13:16 PM
Is that.... Is that ritual scarification on Mary's face there?
Yes, I also wondered what that signified. According to the Wiki article:
QuoteThe legend concerning the two scars on the Black Madonna's right cheek is that the Hussites stormed the Pauline monastery in 1430, plundering the sanctuary. Among the items stolen was the icon. After putting it in their wagon, the Hussites tried to get away but their horses refused to move. They threw the portrait down to the ground and one of the plunderers drew his sword upon the image and inflicted two deep strikes. When the robber tried to inflict a third strike, he fell to the ground and squirmed in agony until his death. Despite past attempts to repair these scars, they had difficulty in covering up those slashes (as they found out that the painting was painted with tempera infused with diluted wax). In commemoration of the attack, two slashes on her right cheek were made by a pen.[1]
Another legend states that, as the robber struck the painting twice, the face of the Virgin Mary started to bleed; in a panic, the scared Hussites retreated and left the painting.[citation needed
Do you think there's any chance that this might have been misinterpreted/taken too far by fever-eyed True Believers? I only ask because I'm pretty sure I've seen that pattern of scars before.
I would say that is entirely certain, everywhere, always.
Not a clue. Where do you think you've seen the pattern before?
Some years ago, there were still Forest Service structures in Oregon; small buildings that the lost or weary or snowbound traveler could take shelter in. Some of them were nothing more than yurts, fabric stretched over wood frames like my husband's Kyrg ancestors lived in. There was one yurt, though, outside of Sisters. Some enterprising soul had stretched copper wires around the interior, and connected them to the electrical wires running overhead. It kept the structure warm, but rumor has it that more than one traveler was seduced into bedding the lady who warmed it, and the unfortunate gentleman, unwary, was rolled into the wires, naked and grounded.
Maybe it was an accident.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 08:15:33 PM
The Arizona link may be through the Lady of Guadalupe.
Describe the shrines, please.
Flat, oval "altar" looking thing, made out of wood about 8" thick, resting flat on the ground. Total size about 3'X6', IIRC, and a withered up-looking carving of a female out of either black wood, or wood stained black via stain, age, or soot/pollution. No markings on anything, some odd stains on altar that look like acidic liquid (fruit, maybe?) was allowed to etch the wood.
Surrounding this, at an average distance of 6 feet or so, were piles of electronics of all descriptions, deliberately destroyed and arranged.
This was in a courtyard completely surrounded by buildings (no alleys) downtown, approximately halfway between the legal district and the maze.
Cult of the black Madonna as connected to Arizona is hard to find online. All I have found so far was some republican ranting about how Hispanics (which she spelled hispaniks) were natural prostitutes, and also involved in the cult of the black Madonna. I believe it was in support of the crazy legislation Dok mentioned in Aneristic delusions.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on April 19, 2010, 08:38:56 PM
Cult of the black Madonna as connected to Arizona is hard to find online. All I have found so far was some republican ranting about how Hispanics (which she spelled hispaniks) were natural prostitutes, and also involved in the cult of the black Madonna. I believe it was in support of the crazy legislation Dok mentioned in Aneristic delusions.
The only documentation I have found concerning the cult is some sensationalist press articles from 1898, in the stacks of the Pima County Court Library.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 08:36:06 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 08:15:33 PM
The Arizona link may be through the Lady of Guadalupe.
Describe the shrines, please.
Flat, oval "altar" looking thing, made out of wood about 8" thick, resting flat on the ground. Total size about 3'X6', IIRC, and a withered up-looking carving of a female out of either black wood, or wood stained black via stain, age, or soot/pollution. No markings on anything, some odd stains on altar that look like acidic liquid (fruit, maybe?) was allowed to etch the wood.
Surrounding this, at an average distance of 6 feet or so, were piles of electronics of all descriptions, deliberately destroyed and arranged.
This was in a courtyard completely surrounded by buildings (no alleys) downtown, approximately halfway between the legal district and the maze.
Was this altar a solid piece of wood, or butcher block / composite (if you could tell.)?
what are the chances the shrine was a hoax designed to engender fear among the gringo population? The placement seems oddly conspicuous.
Search Black Madonna California. It's not unique to Arizona, just more limited there.
The part that makes Arizona interesting is the destroyed electronics, which tales it from "Whatever" into "uniquecrazyland".
Ludite sentiment?
Quote from: Richter on April 19, 2010, 08:52:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 08:36:06 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 08:15:33 PM
The Arizona link may be through the Lady of Guadalupe.
Describe the shrines, please.
Flat, oval "altar" looking thing, made out of wood about 8" thick, resting flat on the ground. Total size about 3'X6', IIRC, and a withered up-looking carving of a female out of either black wood, or wood stained black via stain, age, or soot/pollution. No markings on anything, some odd stains on altar that look like acidic liquid (fruit, maybe?) was allowed to etch the wood.
Surrounding this, at an average distance of 6 feet or so, were piles of electronics of all descriptions, deliberately destroyed and arranged.
This was in a courtyard completely surrounded by buildings (no alleys) downtown, approximately halfway between the legal district and the maze.
Was this altar a solid piece of wood, or butcher block / composite (if you could tell.)?
I don't know.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on April 19, 2010, 09:07:04 PM
what are the chances the shrine was a hoax designed to engender fear among the gringo population? The placement seems oddly conspicuous.
In an area you can't see without getting on a roof, or going though a building?
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 09:18:37 PM
The part that makes Arizona interesting is the destroyed electronics, which tales it from "Whatever" into "uniquecrazyland".
This is Eris' Holy City. Everything here is bugfuck insane.
As much as this city is the holy land of Fucking Nuts, I feel that has yet to really take it to the wall. Weeks can go by when I don't feel like there's something horribly strange with this town.
Quote from: Professor Freeky on April 19, 2010, 10:37:42 PM
As much as this city is the holy land of Fucking Nuts, I feel that has yet to really take it to the wall. Weeks can go by when I don't feel like there's something horribly strange with this town.
That's because you put your head down and concentrate on daily life.
It's weirder than ever.
You guys mentioned that you have a Vodou community down there? The Loa Erzulie corresponds to the Black Madonna and to the Virgin Mary. She's the fertility figure among the Loa. So, maybe you should inquire with local priest (Houngan) or priestess, given that Erzulie is female, maybe a priestess (Mambo).
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 08:36:06 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 08:15:33 PM
The Arizona link may be through the Lady of Guadalupe.
Describe the shrines, please.
Flat, oval "altar" looking thing, made out of wood about 8" thick, resting flat on the ground. Total size about 3'X6', IIRC, and a withered up-looking carving of a female out of either black wood, or wood stained black via stain, age, or soot/pollution. No markings on anything, some odd stains on altar that look like acidic liquid (fruit, maybe?) was allowed to etch the wood.
Surrounding this, at an average distance of 6 feet or so, were piles of electronics of all descriptions, deliberately destroyed and arranged.
This was in a courtyard completely surrounded by buildings (no alleys) downtown, approximately halfway between the legal district and the maze.
The electronics connection is especially intriguing and difficult to find links to.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 02:56:14 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 19, 2010, 08:36:06 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 19, 2010, 08:15:33 PM
The Arizona link may be through the Lady of Guadalupe.
Describe the shrines, please.
Flat, oval "altar" looking thing, made out of wood about 8" thick, resting flat on the ground. Total size about 3'X6', IIRC, and a withered up-looking carving of a female out of either black wood, or wood stained black via stain, age, or soot/pollution. No markings on anything, some odd stains on altar that look like acidic liquid (fruit, maybe?) was allowed to etch the wood.
Surrounding this, at an average distance of 6 feet or so, were piles of electronics of all descriptions, deliberately destroyed and arranged.
This was in a courtyard completely surrounded by buildings (no alleys) downtown, approximately halfway between the legal district and the maze.
The electronics connection is especially intriguing and difficult to find links to.
It's Tucson. It could be any of the hypothesized groups, with our own weird twist.
I studied Vodou for a number of years and have never heard of anything like this... it's really, really interesting.
I mean, we have a known "black Madonna" from Poland in the 15th century, with links to the Guadalupe Mother, and obvious Santeria connections, with fucking smashed VCRs. I don't know about you, but if I was going to invent a religion, this is it.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on April 19, 2010, 11:40:29 PM
You guys mentioned that you have a Vodou community down there? The Loa Erzulie corresponds to the Black Madonna and to the Virgin Mary. She's the fertility figure among the Loa. So, maybe you should inquire with local priest (Houngan) or priestess, given that Erzulie is female, maybe a priestess (Mambo).
Ogun is the loa of technology, though. Nothing about the altar corresponds with Erzulie.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 03:01:36 AM
I mean, we have a known "black Madonna" from Poland in the 15th century, with links to the Guadalupe Mother, and obvious Santeria connections, with fucking smashed VCRs. I don't know about you, but if I was going to invent a religion, this is it.
Yeah, but I don't know anything more about it. I mean, I'm heading back there, and I don't know if I'll find more electronics, or maybe this time they're crucifying hobos, right?
Oh, and being Arizona I doubt it's Vodou. We have a lot of Vodoun up here, but my guess is that in Arizona it's Santeros.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 03:04:38 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 03:01:36 AM
I mean, we have a known "black Madonna" from Poland in the 15th century, with links to the Guadalupe Mother, and obvious Santeria connections, with fucking smashed VCRs. I don't know about you, but if I was going to invent a religion, this is it.
Yeah, but I don't know anything more about it. I mean, I'm heading back there, and I don't know if I'll find more electronics, or maybe this time they're crucifying hobos, right?
I want to know. We might have a whole new permutation of this religion on our hands. That would be a fucking doctoral paper, if any of us were in that line of schooling.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 03:05:14 AM
Oh, and being Arizona I doubt it's Vodou. We have a lot of Vodoun up here, but my guess is that in Arizona it's Santeros.
That, or some cargo cult bastardization of Catholicism, by back alley Maze dwellers who have been cut off from the Mission for too long.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 03:06:20 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 03:04:38 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 03:01:36 AM
I mean, we have a known "black Madonna" from Poland in the 15th century, with links to the Guadalupe Mother, and obvious Santeria connections, with fucking smashed VCRs. I don't know about you, but if I was going to invent a religion, this is it.
Yeah, but I don't know anything more about it. I mean, I'm heading back there, and I don't know if I'll find more electronics, or maybe this time they're crucifying hobos, right?
I want to know. We might have a whole new permutation of this religion on our hands. That would be a fucking doctoral paper, if any of us were in that line of schooling.
Okay. But if they string me up next to hobos, I'm gonna haunt you.
Well, hopefully you won't get killed. But if anything that interesting was happening here nobody would see me for weeks.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 03:21:17 AM
Well, hopefully you won't get killed. But if anything that interesting was happening here nobody would see me for weeks.
Gotta get down there this Friday night, I think.
QuoteOgun is the loa of technology, though. Nothing about the altar corresponds with Erzulie.
Hmm, hadn't considered that. The Black Madonna aspect was what made me think of Erzulie.
Quote
Oh, and being Arizona I doubt it's Vodou. We have a lot of Vodoun up here, but my guess is that in Arizona it's Santeros.
Woops, thought you guys lived in same area.
I think this Black Madonna aspect may be a completely independent interpretation. I wish I was able to research this.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on April 20, 2010, 03:35:34 AM
Woops, thought you guys lived in same area.
There's laws against that.
This is all very fascinating.
Dok, if you visit the shrine next time, will you take pictures?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 03:46:21 AM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on April 20, 2010, 03:35:34 AM
Woops, thought you guys lived in same area.
There's laws against that.
Some of the few "good laws" on the books, if you ask me.
It occurs to me that while these guys are called the cult of the Black Madonna, the only thing really linking them are back statues of feminine figures, this could be an entirely different set of symbolism that's just gotten painted with a more familiar brush by the unaware. We don't exactly know what they call themselves.
I've been looking for rituals that involve the destruction of objects, but all I've found are sympathetic magic rituals (akin to voodoo dolls) and some middle stone age stuff where they burned spearheads (not truly destructive to stone, but they were discarded after). I can't for the life of me figure out what all the electronics would represent, and the spearhead thing isn't really understood.
I've got next to jack in terms of knowledge and sources of more recent magical practices though, so these things might be more common in recent times.
Quote from: Nast on April 20, 2010, 03:52:35 AM
This is all very fascinating.
Dok, if you visit the shrine next time, will you take pictures?
Yeah.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 04:14:35 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 04:00:07 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 03:46:21 AM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on April 20, 2010, 03:35:34 AM
Woops, thought you guys lived in same area.
There's laws against that.
Some of the few "good laws" on the books, if you ask me.
No shit.
We'd be robbing banks by Friday.
Are you shitting me
We'd be robbing banks right fucking now. I know how.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 04:29:06 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 04:14:35 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 04:00:07 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 03:46:21 AM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on April 20, 2010, 03:35:34 AM
Woops, thought you guys lived in same area.
There's laws against that.
Some of the few "good laws" on the books, if you ask me.
No shit.
We'd be robbing banks by Friday.
Are you shitting me
We'd be robbing banks right fucking now. I know how.
And I've got the 6 shooters. No shit. Great big fucking matched Bisleys.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 04:30:19 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 04:29:06 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 04:14:35 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 04:00:07 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 03:46:21 AM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on April 20, 2010, 03:35:34 AM
Woops, thought you guys lived in same area.
There's laws against that.
Some of the few "good laws" on the books, if you ask me.
No shit.
We'd be robbing banks by Friday.
Are you shitting me
We'd be robbing banks right fucking now. I know how.
And I've got the 6 shooters. No shit. Great big fucking matched Bisleys.
Goddamn, that's beautiful. Makes me want to start our own state.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on April 20, 2010, 04:08:05 AM
It occurs to me that while these guys are called the cult of the Black Madonna, the only thing really linking them are back statues of feminine figures, this could be an entirely different set of symbolism that's just gotten painted with a more familiar brush by the unaware. We don't exactly know what they call themselves.
I've been looking for rituals that involve the destruction of objects, but all I've found are sympathetic magic rituals (akin to voodoo dolls) and some middle stone age stuff where they burned spearheads (not truly destructive to stone, but they were discarded after). I can't for the life of me figure out what all the electronics would represent, and the spearhead thing isn't really understood.
I've got next to jack in terms of knowledge and sources of more recent magical practices though, so these things might be more common in recent times.
Well, spearheads were technology, for that time period.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on April 20, 2010, 04:08:05 AM
It occurs to me that while these guys are called the cult of the Black Madonna, the only thing really linking them are back statues of feminine figures, this could be an entirely different set of symbolism that's just gotten painted with a more familiar brush by the unaware. We don't exactly know what they call themselves.
I've been looking for rituals that involve the destruction of objects, but all I've found are sympathetic magic rituals (akin to voodoo dolls) and some middle stone age stuff where they burned spearheads (not truly destructive to stone, but they were discarded after). I can't for the life of me figure out what all the electronics would represent, and the spearhead thing isn't really understood.
I've got next to jack in terms of knowledge and sources of more recent magical practices though, so these things might be more common in recent times.
Maybe some John Zerzan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Zerzan) influenced and very confused Catholics are running around the place.
Hmm, the philosophy fits the destruction of the electronics, and the egalitarian aspects fit with Black Madonna symbolism. The timeline is a bit off, but I can see that philosophy appealing to an aging Luddite cult pretty easily.
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2010, 04:36:05 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 04:30:19 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 04:29:06 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 04:14:35 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on April 20, 2010, 04:00:07 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2010, 03:46:21 AM
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on April 20, 2010, 03:35:34 AM
Woops, thought you guys lived in same area.
There's laws against that.
Some of the few "good laws" on the books, if you ask me.
No shit.
We'd be robbing banks by Friday.
Are you shitting me
We'd be robbing banks right fucking now. I know how.
And I've got the 6 shooters. No shit. Great big fucking matched Bisleys.
Goddamn, that's beautiful. Makes me want to start our own state.
Bump for August. :lulz:
Really enjoyed rereading the OP. :)
You gonna go and actually take pictures, Roger?
Quote from: Kai on July 16, 2010, 09:20:17 PM
You gonna go and actually take pictures, Roger?
Probably. But first I have to get some pics of some totally random 40K sculpture on Flowing Wells Road, and the Bike sculptures down in the University District.
Did the homeless ever come back?
I grew up in Casa Grande.
I remember when I was a little kid my older brother would tell me stories about the Black Madonna cult. Most of them
involved them coming in the middle of the night to peel the skin off of my face and feed it to the devil. Its weird because I always thought he was making them up, but I guess his stories must of had some basis in reality.