I used to believe in Karma til I had a better look at the world and realized that good people can be punished for nothing, and bad people can flourish despite punishing all the good people for selfish and material reasons.
Now I Believe karma is what bad people convince good people exist so good people won't have an excuse to punch bad people whenever they get screwed over by them.
It's quite ingenious really. ...
So in answer to the question: Karma is a nice little fairytale for those who have been screwed so they have a reason to wake up instead of killing themselves if they knew the futile truth of reality or are just too big a hippy pussy to actually help push Karma in the right direction.
TL;DR
Karma exists, but only for those who choose to retaliate against injustice and inhumanity instead of running away and hoping a random and chaotic universe that doesn't give a fuck about hippies will do something to avenge the perceived wrongs against said hippies.
I always thought that the idea of Karma was that it's pretty much irrelevant until you die
and then your Karma is relevant in selecting what form you will be reborn as.
But people these days seem to envision Karma as some kind of cosmic operant-conditioning system,
as if the universe channels good energy your way for each bit you send out.
One of my best friends lives at the deep end of the pool. He practices this bullsiht he calls "Karma Hacking" ---
--- in which he intentionally endures miserable situations because he believes it will pay off some day.
Consequently, he equates suffering and sacrifice with some kind of nobility.
Consequently, he is a miserable pessimist.
I like the idea of karma in so far as I believe that what you do has consequences. Karma suggests that our actions and their consequences are relevant in cosmic terms, in a larger scale than just the bullshit right in front of our faces.
It doesn't mean that if you screw people, something shitty is coming your way.
The way I see it,
it sort of means that if you screw people, the universe is a little more screwed thanks to you. Ass hole.
http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-karma.html
Quote
Karma, in the original Buddhist scriptures, is a blind machine; in fact, it is functionally identical with the scientific concept of natural law. Sentimental ethical ideas about justice being built into the machine, so that those who do evil in one life are punished for it in another life, were added later by theologians reasoning from their own moralistic prejudices. Buddha simply indicated that all the cruelties and injustices of the past are still active: their effects are always being felt. Similarly, he explained, all the good of the past, all the kindness and patience and love of decent people is also still being felt.
Since most humans are still controlled by fairly robotic reflexes, the bad energy of the past far outweighs the good, and the tendency of the wheel is to keep moving in the same terrible direction, violence breeding more violence, hatred breeding more hatred, war breeding more war. The only way to "stop the wheel" is to stop it inside yourself, by giving up bad energy and concentrating on the positive. This is by no means easy, but once you understand what Gurdjieff called "the horror of our situation," you have no choice but to try, and to keep on trying.
I always liked that view :)
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 14, 2010, 02:55:17 PM
http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-karma.html
Quote
Karma, in the original Buddhist scriptures, is a blind machine; in fact, it is functionally identical with the scientific concept of natural law. Sentimental ethical ideas about justice being built into the machine, so that those who do evil in one life are punished for it in another life, were added later by theologians reasoning from their own moralistic prejudices. Buddha simply indicated that all the cruelties and injustices of the past are still active: their effects are always being felt. Similarly, he explained, all the good of the past, all the kindness and patience and love of decent people is also still being felt.
Since most humans are still controlled by fairly robotic reflexes, the bad energy of the past far outweighs the good, and the tendency of the wheel is to keep moving in the same terrible direction, violence breeding more violence, hatred breeding more hatred, war breeding more war. The only way to "stop the wheel" is to stop it inside yourself, by giving up bad energy and concentrating on the positive. This is by no means easy, but once you understand what Gurdjieff called "the horror of our situation," you have no choice but to try, and to keep on trying.
I always liked that view :)
It's a novel and interesting view, but can't we just destroy the "wheel" at it's source and save a lot of people a lot of future trouble?
You know, channel bad energy into usefulness by using it for good?
Like, for example, if someone raped a child, stabbing the rapist in the face and a couple of times in the crotch and then dumping them in the middle of the desert with a water bottle? (You know, in buddha's infinite mercy and all?)
Quote from: Lysergic on June 14, 2010, 03:00:17 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 14, 2010, 02:55:17 PM
http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-karma.html
Quote
Karma, in the original Buddhist scriptures, is a blind machine; in fact, it is functionally identical with the scientific concept of natural law. Sentimental ethical ideas about justice being built into the machine, so that those who do evil in one life are punished for it in another life, were added later by theologians reasoning from their own moralistic prejudices. Buddha simply indicated that all the cruelties and injustices of the past are still active: their effects are always being felt. Similarly, he explained, all the good of the past, all the kindness and patience and love of decent people is also still being felt.
Since most humans are still controlled by fairly robotic reflexes, the bad energy of the past far outweighs the good, and the tendency of the wheel is to keep moving in the same terrible direction, violence breeding more violence, hatred breeding more hatred, war breeding more war. The only way to "stop the wheel" is to stop it inside yourself, by giving up bad energy and concentrating on the positive. This is by no means easy, but once you understand what Gurdjieff called "the horror of our situation," you have no choice but to try, and to keep on trying.
I always liked that view :)
It's a novel and interesting view, but can't we just destroy the "wheel" at it's source and save a lot of people a lot of future trouble?
You know, channel bad energy into usefulness by using it for good?
Like, for example, if someone raped a child, stabbing the rapist in the face and a couple of times in the crotch and then dumping them in the middle of the desert with a water bottle? (You know, in buddha's infinite mercy and all?)
I have no problem with that. :lulz:
Good and bad karma has nothing to do with Buddhism and everything to do with bad interpretation of eastern philosophy, applied through a lense of westernised Christian morality.
Karma states that if you drop a pebble in a pool there will be ripples. Western bastardised retard-karma states that the ripples will only touch the sides of the pool which deserve it.
Once I met the Buddha on the road, and he told me people who spread bad energy will suffer upon others the ripples of Karma, so I stabbed him in the leg and stole his clothes and said "SUFFER".
Quote from: Lysergic on June 14, 2010, 03:00:17 PM
You know, channel bad energy into usefulness by using it for good?
Like, for example, if someone raped a child, stabbing the rapist in the face and a couple of times in the crotch and then dumping them in the middle of the desert with a water bottle? (You know, in buddha's infinite mercy and all?)
if I understand it properly, this doesn't use the energy for good, this just sends the bad energy out further
the rapists parents, children, a lifetime of acquaintances, who did nothing wrong, now suffer a loss
and they will, in turn, go hurt others
I'm reminded of RAW's description of Karma in --Cosmic Trigger, I think?
he had a section about how his young daughter got her ass kicked really hard by some black thugs
they were still carrying around the injustice done to their ancestors, still paying back the white man all that bad karma
and RAW's daughter, innocent little girl, forgave them. She bore them no ill will. She refused to become afraid of black people, refused to retract and hide, because of this one injustice.
She stopped the wheel- by not seeking revenge, by not embracing fear, she halted the cascade of harm being paid back and forth into the future
Quote from: Cramulus on June 14, 2010, 02:21:22 PM
I always thought that the idea of Karma was that it's pretty much irrelevant until you die
and then your Karma is relevant in selecting what form you will be reborn as.
But people these days seem to envision Karma as some kind of cosmic operant-conditioning system,
as if the universe channels good energy your way for each bit you send out.
One of my best friends lives at the deep end of the pool. He practices this bullsiht he calls "Karma Hacking" ---
--- in which he intentionally endures miserable situations because he believes it will pay off some day.
Consequently, he equates suffering and sacrifice with some kind of nobility.
Consequently, he is a miserable pessimist.
I like the idea of karma in so far as I believe that what you do has consequences. Karma suggests that our actions and their consequences are relevant in cosmic terms, in a larger scale than just the bullshit right in front of our faces.
It doesn't mean that if you screw people, something shitty is coming your way.
The way I see it,
it sort of means that if you screw people, the universe is a little more screwed thanks to you. Ass hole.
Actually, Karma hacking brings to a mind a similar but completely different (and a lot better) concept I read about and participate in: "The Karma Club".
Basically, at least once a week, participate in some random act of kindness... and that's it. (ok, looking it up online now, apparently on http://www.karmaclub.org/ you can get a free "Karma" coin for passing on whenever you do this, it's a bonus but pretty much unnecessary)
I remember the first day I decided to do this... I picked a bunch of flowers from my garden, went on public transport and gave flowers to a couple of selected pretty much at random ladies...
One of the ladies looked at me and went "Oh, I have a boyfriend." and I looked at her and replied "I don't care, that's great! Give him the flower then! This is a no strings attached gift, enjoy it, and if you want, in the near future, do something similar!" and she took the flower and smiled at me and told me I just made her day, as she blushed wildly and looked at me with what I'm sure were lust filled eyes.
There's no drug I've taken yet that can beat the rush you get for doing a random act of kindness... (But of course, being on drugs can *enhance* the experience anyway ;) )
:) that is exactly why I identify with the creative trip and not the destructive trip
Quote from: Cramulus on June 14, 2010, 03:25:02 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on June 14, 2010, 03:00:17 PM
You know, channel bad energy into usefulness by using it for good?
Like, for example, if someone raped a child, stabbing the rapist in the face and a couple of times in the crotch and then dumping them in the middle of the desert with a water bottle? (You know, in buddha's infinite mercy and all?)
if I understand it properly, this doesn't use the energy for good, this just sends the bad energy out further
the rapists parents, children, a lifetime of acquaintances, who did nothing wrong, now suffer a loss
and they will, in turn, go hurt others
I'm reminded of RAW's description of Karma in --Cosmic Trigger, I think?
he had a section about how his young daughter got her ass kicked really hard by some black thugs
they were still carrying around the injustice done to their ancestors, still paying back the white man all that bad karma
and RAW's daughter, innocent little girl, forgave them. She bore them no ill will. She refused to become afraid of black people, refused to retract and hide, because of this one injustice. She stopped the wheel- by not seeking revenge, by not embracing fear, she halted the cascade of harm being paid back and forth into the future
Sure, it's easy enough to forgive a group of former slaves who are still a bit pissy about havin been used and abused by white society, not to mention, they picked on a *girl* so it's not like the option of fighting back was *really* there, but someones just raped and abused someone you love and care about, and the rapist does this on a few more people for good measure.
Let's see you *forgive* this rapist and ignore him after he's mentally and physically destroyed your spouse/mother/sister.
that's what RAW wrote about. He was about to become really hardened to this world because of the terrible experience his daughter had.
And instead, he was astonished by his daughter's ability to forgive -- despite the enormous injustice that was transferred onto her.
That's what he meant by "stopping the karma wheel". When you've been destroyed, it's really really difficult to not rekindle that destruction and pass it on to everybody else. But if we want to live in a better world, (and I know, not everybody does) we have to transcend those basic revenge impulses because they will keep getting bounced back between one another forever.
Karma just seems like something that helps one deal with the seemingly random crap the universe keeps throwing our way, a quasi-mystic package wrapped around the Golden Rule or whatever you want to call it. If we go by our own BS, we are mere schmucks, but schmucks that can make positive decisions.
Quote from: Lysergic on June 14, 2010, 03:39:39 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 14, 2010, 03:25:02 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on June 14, 2010, 03:00:17 PM
You know, channel bad energy into usefulness by using it for good?
Like, for example, if someone raped a child, stabbing the rapist in the face and a couple of times in the crotch and then dumping them in the middle of the desert with a water bottle? (You know, in buddha's infinite mercy and all?)
if I understand it properly, this doesn't use the energy for good, this just sends the bad energy out further
the rapists parents, children, a lifetime of acquaintances, who did nothing wrong, now suffer a loss
and they will, in turn, go hurt others
I'm reminded of RAW's description of Karma in --Cosmic Trigger, I think?
he had a section about how his young daughter got her ass kicked really hard by some black thugs
they were still carrying around the injustice done to their ancestors, still paying back the white man all that bad karma
and RAW's daughter, innocent little girl, forgave them. She bore them no ill will. She refused to become afraid of black people, refused to retract and hide, because of this one injustice. She stopped the wheel- by not seeking revenge, by not embracing fear, she halted the cascade of harm being paid back and forth into the future
Sure, it's easy enough to forgive a group of former slaves who are still a bit pissy about havin been used and abused by white society, not to mention, they picked on a *girl* so it's not like the option of fighting back was *really* there, but someones just raped and abused someone you love and care about, and the rapist does this on a few more people for good measure.
Let's see you *forgive* this rapist and ignore him after he's mentally and physically destroyed your spouse/mother/sister.
The Oristeia of Aechylus is a classic example of this - the Furies are the personification of these cycles of vengeance, and regardless of the intention they just keep going on and on with the cycle of blood and death. Some certainly deserved it more than others but the same destructive influence pervades it all. It's a third party that winds up stopping the cycle, but it would have easily continued were it not for that. EDIT: What I mean to say is that after a while any reason for vengeance becomes invalid after going far enough down the line with the negativity - innocent people end up crushed down the line by our own negativity, so the sooner we stop it the better it is for everyone.
One idea I've been thinking a bit about lately is the idea of karma in a psychosomatic sense. If you do good things you feel happy, and when you feel happy people act positively towards you. Or something like that.
there's definitely some truth to that
there's one lady in my office who is ALWAYS smiling, ALWAYS helpful, and in turn, ALWAYS having a good day. It's infectious!
There's definitely a law of fives kind of filter in place there, which works like this --
If we go back to our discussions about Shrapnel, the idea is that we are constantly being bombarded by shrapnel, and some of it will become a part of us. And meanwhile, we are constantly blasting out shrapnel with everything we do.
So if I believe in Karma in any sense, it is that you tend to identify / experience / not filter out the kind of shrapnel you send out. If you go around bitter and sour, you will find more bitter and sour shrapnel stuck to you. If you go around being awesome, you will encounter more awesome stuff. I think it's the best argument for optimism.
Quote from: Cramulus on June 14, 2010, 03:44:21 PM
that's what RAW wrote about. He was about to become really hardened to this world because of the terrible experience his daughter had.
And instead, he was astonished by his daughter's ability to forgive -- despite the enormous injustice that was transferred onto her.
That's what he meant by "stopping the karma wheel". When you've been destroyed, it's really really difficult to not rekindle that destruction and pass it on to everybody else. But if we want to live in a better world, (and I know, not everybody does) we have to transcend those basic revenge impulses because they will keep getting bounced back between one another forever.
I don't think of it as revenge so much as preventative measures, if someones obviously a repeat offender of a brutal and sadistic crime, throw them in a place far far away from anyone else, where they can be as brutal and sadistic as they like with all the flora and fauna a desert environment can provide.
And of course, I'll forgive them enough to leave them a bottle of water and a gun with 1 bullet in it.
Do this with enough violent psychopaths and they'll have their own little area where they can turn karmic ripples onto themselves.
Yes yes, I know I know, the families and people who actually *give a shit* about these psychopaths, suffering loss ect...
Better that the psychopath is free to abuse/bring shame/brainwash their family and friends and in the case of violent psychopath parents, raise their kids in a manner that only perpetuates the violent psychopath line, OR remove said psychopath from society where his wheel cannot effect the wheels of everyone he gets close to, and then putting in place programs designed to help/rehabilitate/counsel all those that are related or have any association with said violent psychopath?
See, I may not be very enlightened, and I probably don't "get" Karma, but I still think that letting "moving" karma wheels around everyone else's karma wheels is bad idea, and while people may still suffer in some shape or form by "eliminating" the violent psychopaths, it's a most likely going to be a lesser reaction then what could have the violent psychopath would have inflicted by letting them "Be" and "Forgiving" them.
And if forgiveness seems to be the whole "key" to stopping the Karmic wheel... why not just forgive them *after* they're long gone and never to be seen or heard from again?
(Dispite the apparent tone/nature/side I appear to be taking here... I do agree with Cram/Buddha for the *most* part. It's just certain things just bug me about this whole "stopping the wheel" theory/philosophy and I'm trying to see how this works when taken to *extremes*. I can dig say, forgiving your neighbor for sleeping with your wife or something (and consequently forgiving your wife), crimes of lust/passion shouldn't be met with such extreme measures, but crimes of violence/sexual assault where the perpetrator is a repeat offender and obviously beyond and hope of saving... what do you do? *Forgive* them? *HOW?* Allow them to be at large in society to do as they please and ruin everyone else's lives? If not doing what I'm suggesting, then *what*?
you can put every "evil" person in the middle of the desert and let them hate fuck each other until red dawn
and people are still going to steal from you and fuck you up
the thing is, while the impulse to go save the world is very noble ---
(and yo, I agree that putting all those thugs in jail would be a Good act, and would totally prevent a lot more people from getting stabbed)
--- you can't change the universe all that much. Putting those thugs in jail isn't going to prevent different thugs from doing anything. So if we accept that we cannot ultimately prevent harm and suffering, what are we left with?
we just have to learn to function in a universe which occasionally deals us really shitty cards.
The universe isn't an observer, a removed third person. The universe is you and me and everybody in between. We're all dealers - and to some extent we can choose whether we deal a nice hand or a shitty hand.
It's that line from the black iron prison - we can't change the entire machine, but we can influence the local parts. And if enough of us do this, the entire machine will change.
I think there are two confused concepts here:
1. Punishment of Criminal
2. Forgiveness within a Victim
That is, there is not an either/or requirement.
If Connie gets raped, Bob can go beat the fuck out of the Rapist... However, Connie still has to decide how to internalize her experience... She could go around being pissed off that something bad happened to her, she could rant about the evils of Men and how terrible and scary life is as a woman. These actions, will 'continue' the negative wheel of Karma, because she will be more negative and react more negatively to external events.
On the other hand, she can 'stop' the Wheel... recognize that this bad thing happened and determine that it will not change her perceptions about the world, choosing to consciously provide more positive reactions to external events.
Bob's punishment of the Perp is separate from Connie's decision on how the event will affect her.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 14, 2010, 05:45:18 PM
I think there are two confused concepts here:
1. Punishment of Criminal
2. Forgiveness within a Victim
That is, there is not an either/or requirement.
If Connie gets raped, Bob can go beat the fuck out of the Rapist... However, Connie still has to decide how to internalize her experience... She could go around being pissed off that something bad happened to her, she could rant about the evils of Men and how terrible and scary life is as a woman. These actions, will 'continue' the negative wheel of Karma, because she will be more negative and react more negatively to external events.
On the other hand, she can 'stop' the Wheel... recognize that this bad thing happened and determine that it will not change her perceptions about the world, choosing to consciously provide more positive reactions to external events.
Bob's punishment of the Perp is separate from Connie's decision on how the event will affect her.
I like what you're saying and this fit's with what I'm thinking about this whole thing, seems to smooth the rough edges out on this hole karmic wheel thing. Thanks Rat, you are my short term honorary Buddha, until a more satisfying theory/explanation comes along.
Quote from: Lysergic on June 14, 2010, 05:53:07 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 14, 2010, 05:45:18 PM
I think there are two confused concepts here:
1. Punishment of Criminal
2. Forgiveness within a Victim
That is, there is not an either/or requirement.
If Connie gets raped, Bob can go beat the fuck out of the Rapist... However, Connie still has to decide how to internalize her experience... She could go around being pissed off that something bad happened to her, she could rant about the evils of Men and how terrible and scary life is as a woman. These actions, will 'continue' the negative wheel of Karma, because she will be more negative and react more negatively to external events.
On the other hand, she can 'stop' the Wheel... recognize that this bad thing happened and determine that it will not change her perceptions about the world, choosing to consciously provide more positive reactions to external events.
Bob's punishment of the Perp is separate from Connie's decision on how the event will affect her.
I like what you're saying and this fit's with what I'm thinking about this whole thing, seems to smooth the rough edges out on this hole karmic wheel thing. Thanks Rat, you are my short term honorary Buddha, until a more satisfying theory/explanation comes along.
Oh great, now I have to go kill myself on the road.... :lulz:
Sokay, dude, just meet me and I'll do it for ya :lulz:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 14, 2010, 06:19:44 PM
Sokay, dude, just meet me and I'll do it for ya :lulz:
um... Thanks?
:lulz:
Quote from: Cramulus on June 14, 2010, 04:10:39 PM
there's definitely some truth to that
there's one lady in my office who is ALWAYS smiling, ALWAYS helpful, and in turn, ALWAYS having a good day. It's infectious!
There's definitely a law of fives kind of filter in place there, which works like this --
If we go back to our discussions about Shrapnel, the idea is that we are constantly being bombarded by shrapnel, and some of it will become a part of us. And meanwhile, we are constantly blasting out shrapnel with everything we do.
So if I believe in Karma in any sense, it is that you tend to identify / experience / not filter out the kind of shrapnel you send out. If you go around bitter and sour, you will find more bitter and sour shrapnel stuck to you. If you go around being awesome, you will encounter more awesome stuff. I think it's the best argument for optimism.
This. There's been a couple studies lately that show that attitudes and moods really are infectious--humans being social creatures, they pick up others' moods subconsciously, and react subconsciously. (Side note--I wonder if it's related to how people can't think about an emotion without making the facial expression associated with that emotion) To put it simplistically, you teach people how to treat you. If you're constantly negative, other people will associate you with negativity, and subconsciously treat you negatively, which makes you even more negative.
I do think a lot of what's being called karma (in this thread even) is just the westernized trope of god punishing the wicked, with god replaced by karma. I don't think karma has much to do with punishment at all, unless it's generalized punishment of the entire human race.
Quote from: Cramulus on June 14, 2010, 04:10:39 PM
So if I believe in Karma in any sense, it is that you tend to identify / experience / not filter out the kind of shrapnel you send out. If you go around bitter and sour, you will find more bitter and sour shrapnel stuck to you. If you go around being awesome, you will encounter more awesome stuff. I think it's the best argument for optimism.
A few years back I started a temporary job in somewhat unusual circumstances - I knew no-one there and there was never going to be any contact between those folk and anyone else I knew. So I experimented, and found it really easy to change aspects of my personality - little tweaks here, radical changes there.
But in existing relationships I find it near-impossible to enact similar levels of self-change. As if people I know only except the types of shrapnel that they've come to expect from me.
So if that's my personal karma, what's the cure?
good question!
I think that people make meaning for the world using narratives.
When somebody's personality changes, there is usually a narrative to "explain" it.
"He's been much friendlier ever since his kid was born."
"She just hasn't been the same since the car accident."
"He hasn't been getting a lot of sleep since the new job started."
I think the answer is somewhere in there -
- you create a narrative in which change is possible
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on June 14, 2010, 07:47:45 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 14, 2010, 04:10:39 PM
there's definitely some truth to that
there's one lady in my office who is ALWAYS smiling, ALWAYS helpful, and in turn, ALWAYS having a good day. It's infectious!
There's definitely a law of fives kind of filter in place there, which works like this --
If we go back to our discussions about Shrapnel, the idea is that we are constantly being bombarded by shrapnel, and some of it will become a part of us. And meanwhile, we are constantly blasting out shrapnel with everything we do.
So if I believe in Karma in any sense, it is that you tend to identify / experience / not filter out the kind of shrapnel you send out. If you go around bitter and sour, you will find more bitter and sour shrapnel stuck to you. If you go around being awesome, you will encounter more awesome stuff. I think it's the best argument for optimism.
This. There's been a couple studies lately that show that attitudes and moods really are infectious--humans being social creatures, they pick up others' moods subconsciously, and react subconsciously. (Side note--I wonder if it's related to how people can't think about an emotion without making the facial expression associated with that emotion) To put it simplistically, you teach people how to treat you. If you're constantly negative, other people will associate you with negativity, and subconsciously treat you negatively, which makes you even more negative.
I do think a lot of what's being called karma (in this thread even) is just the westernized trope of god punishing the wicked, with god replaced by karma. I don't think karma has much to do with punishment at all, unless it's generalized punishment of the entire human race.
That's the kind of karma I can buy into. Makes more sense in its original context rather than the My Name is Earl thing.
Though, aside from it being a great show it does kinda go with the change in attitude posts ITT. Earl starts off doing good things because he's afraid of bad karma, but throughout the progression of the show actually becomes a good guy independently of karma.
Quote from: Cramulus on June 14, 2010, 07:55:05 PM
good question!
I think that people make meaning for the world using narratives.
When somebody's personality changes, there is usually a narrative to "explain" it.
"He's been much friendlier ever since his kid was born."
"She just hasn't been the same since the car accident."
"He hasn't been getting a lot of sleep since the new job started."
I think the answer is somewhere in there -
- you create a narrative in which change is possible
Effect precedes cause :lulz:
Karma can be summed up in a single phrase:
"Formations have inertia."
I tend to agree, Lys, that in some forms, Karma is used to justify inaction.
But, Karma is a quite diverse concept that means many different things.
It's gained a bastardized, generic definition like "Zen" in the West, where people get a sense of what you're talking about in spite of it having little specific reference to it's origins.
Some people see it as another word for cause and effect, some add a moral valence in varying ways, and for some it all pans out in the afterlife.
I generally think of it in similar terms that Rumckle and Badge have brought up, though in a rather amoral context like Pent.
Who the hell are you calling an amoral context? :argh!:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 14, 2010, 09:55:03 PM
Who the hell are you calling an amoral context? :argh!:
:hashishim:
I prefer to see Karma as 'If I do
- , [y] could happen'
Depends whether its a long-term plan or a short-term plan to, I exercise now in the hope that by 6 months later I will have a good body,
I don't like viewing Karma as something to do with next generation of lives, anything that doesn't have to do with my lifespan really...
As I said, If I do - , [y] could result, and its my fault (regardless if its good or bad); isn't that karma?
Sometimes shit happens to.
Though perhaps this is because of mistakes that happened with people in the distant past, perhaps this is where the idea of karma of other life times happens?
Instead of treating this sort of karma as individualised - because its not my fault that people did things as they did in the past, but it still efects me regardless... well, I don't know of any terms; maybe someone can come up with something. Isn't that still alongside the concept of Karma?
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 14, 2010, 02:55:17 PM
http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-karma.html
Quote
Karma, in the original Buddhist scriptures, is a blind machine; in fact, it is functionally identical with the scientific concept of natural law. Sentimental ethical ideas about justice being built into the machine, so that those who do evil in one life are punished for it in another life, were added later by theologians reasoning from their own moralistic prejudices. Buddha simply indicated that all the cruelties and injustices of the past are still active: their effects are always being felt. Similarly, he explained, all the good of the past, all the kindness and patience and love of decent people is also still being felt.
Since most humans are still controlled by fairly robotic reflexes, the bad energy of the past far outweighs the good, and the tendency of the wheel is to keep moving in the same terrible direction, violence breeding more violence, hatred breeding more hatred, war breeding more war. The only way to "stop the wheel" is to stop it inside yourself, by giving up bad energy and concentrating on the positive. This is by no means easy, but once you understand what Gurdjieff called "the horror of our situation," you have no choice but to try, and to keep on trying.
I always liked that view :)
This was the piece of RAW's work that made me really dig into the history behind the term/concept KARMA, and I traced it back to it's sanskrit roots.
Quote from: Kai on June 14, 2010, 07:59:07 PM
Karma can be summed up in a single phrase:
"Formations have inertia."
And Kai nails it. Specifically KARMA means 'Action', and Action propagates outwards, i.e. has inertia.
The paradigm at the time, though, had as one of it's game rules that reality consists of the physical and the mental (metaphysical). But the term KARMA was one of the terms that did not differentiate between them unless that was specifically part of the context (and always implied that the other aspect is involved in any event that includes a consciousness).
So some-one throws a rock at your face. The rock has inertia and when it meets your face that imparts force which causes damage. Physical Karma.
But the rock-throwing-event also carries the metaphysical inertia of 'Hate/Violence' which doesn't stop at your face. It's in your mind now, and you've got to deal with it. Because it has inertia, the easiest thing to do is let it flow out of you in a violent act (acting otherwise takes self control). Unfortunately, metaphysical things can be given away and still held onto (anybody want an MP3?), so even though your violent act has purges all of the immediate hate chemicals your system, you still carry the memory and some of the inertia to do violence. Metaphysical Karma.
The metaphysical "Wheel of Karma" has sections for Devas, Demons, Hungry Ghosts, Animals, etc, etc. But all of the original Buddhist writings are about the NOW. He may have had to resort to metaphor to get it through to some of the disciples, which were stuck in hindi bureaucracy metaphysics, but that was just to communicate the concept in their terms.
Reincarnation happens in the NOW. If you let Desire rule your life, you become a 'Hungry Ghost' in the NOW. If you let "Trying to help" rule your life to the point of ignoring the negative consequences of your actions, your become a 'Deva' in the NOW.
The You that is reading this is not the You that walked through the door (unless you've held onto all the same Karma you had since you've walked through the door, and then the illusion that 'it's the same you' is easy to buy into).
RAW's daughter found the center of the wheel, and refused to let the karmic inertia trap her into any of the cycles. This is what is meant by the 'middle path'.
Quote from: Telarus on June 15, 2010, 12:53:12 AM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 14, 2010, 02:55:17 PM
http://www.deepleafproductions.com/wilsonlibrary/texts/raw-karma.html
Quote
Karma, in the original Buddhist scriptures, is a blind machine; in fact, it is functionally identical with the scientific concept of natural law. Sentimental ethical ideas about justice being built into the machine, so that those who do evil in one life are punished for it in another life, were added later by theologians reasoning from their own moralistic prejudices. Buddha simply indicated that all the cruelties and injustices of the past are still active: their effects are always being felt. Similarly, he explained, all the good of the past, all the kindness and patience and love of decent people is also still being felt.
Since most humans are still controlled by fairly robotic reflexes, the bad energy of the past far outweighs the good, and the tendency of the wheel is to keep moving in the same terrible direction, violence breeding more violence, hatred breeding more hatred, war breeding more war. The only way to "stop the wheel" is to stop it inside yourself, by giving up bad energy and concentrating on the positive. This is by no means easy, but once you understand what Gurdjieff called "the horror of our situation," you have no choice but to try, and to keep on trying.
I always liked that view :)
This was the piece of RAW's work that made me really dig into the history behind the term/concept KARMA, and I traced it back to it's sanskrit roots.
Quote from: Kai on June 14, 2010, 07:59:07 PM
Karma can be summed up in a single phrase:
"Formations have inertia."
And Kai nails it. Specifically KARMA means 'Action', and Action propagates outwards, i.e. has inertia.
The paradigm at the time, though, had as one of it's game rules that reality consists of the physical and the mental (metaphysical). But the term KARMA was one of the term that did not differentiate between them unless that was specifically part of the context.
So some-one throws a rock at your face. The rock has inertia and when it meets your face that imparts force which causes damage. Physical Karma.
But the rock-throwing-event also carries the metaphysical inertia of 'Hate/Violence which doesn't stop at your face. It's in your mind now, and you've got to deal with it. Because it has inertia, the easiest thing to do is let it flow out of you in a violent act (acting otherwise takes self control). Unfortunately, metaphysical things can be given away and still held onto (anybody want an MP3?), so even though your violent act has purges all of the hate chemicals your system, you still carry the memory and this some of the inertia to do violence. Metaphysical Karma.
The metaphysical "Wheel of Karma" has sections for Devas, Deamons, Hungry Ghosts, Animals, etc, etc. But all of the original Buddhist writings are about the NOW. He may have had to resort to metaphor to get it through to some of the disciples, which were stuck in hindi bureaucracy metaphysics, but that was just to communicate the concept in their terms.
Reincarnation happens in the NOW. If you let Desire rule your life, you become a 'Hungry Ghost' in the NOW. If you let "Trying to help" rule your life to the point of ignoring the negative consequences of your actions, your become a 'Deva' in the NOW. The You that is reading this is not the You that walked through the door (unless you've held onto all the same Karma you had since you've walked through the door, and then the illusion that 'it's the same you' is easy to buy into).
RAW's daughter found the center of the wheel, and refused to let the karmic inertia trap her into any of the cycles. This is what is meant by the 'middle path'.
The middle path, AKA the Primrose path?
For some reason, I'm reminded of this...
(http://thewebfairy.com/chaos/primrose.gif)
That's a great clarification of the Buddhist version of karma, Telarus, thanks for that.
But, it's meant differently by Sikhs, Jainists, Neo-pagans, New Agers and so on—everybody has been putting their own spin on it since the Hindus coined the term.
You're welcome!
I've been digging in to the Jainists, they're very interesting (considering they gave us one of the Apostles, Sri Syadasti). I'm vaguely familiar with Sikhism, although equally as fascinated.
Neopagans and New Agers are deluded on this matter, but they mostly have access to faulty source material.
I really think the neopagan/newage version tries to shoe-horn the 'karma' metaphor into an attempt at explaining the 5th circuit neuro-somatic feed-back loop (where those sort of 'you get what you give' propositions, like the 3-fold law, hold true more often). I think that's what Cram identified with the destructive/creative Trips metaphor.
Kinda going with what NotPublished said, one could argue that all the world international politics that we are dealing with now are a result of World War I (and even farther back, I know, but it's a good point for reference).... For example, if WWI didn't happen, it could be argued that there would not be a fascist strain in Europe, and therefore WWII wouldn't happen. If WWII didn't happen, maybe there wouldn't be a Cold War, since if WWI didn't happen, there might not be a Soviet Union (no Revolution), and there might not have been brief cooperation that went sour. No nukes because no Hiroshima and Nagasaki... no catalyst. No UN, no Israeli-Palastinian conflict (no Holocaust, no strong push for Jewish homeland), no break up of the British Empire, etc, etc...
We're still feeling the effects of what happened 100 years ago, let alone everything else that happened before even that. I chose WWI as a reference point for near-term modern perspective (without commenting in depth upon all of it).
Whether or not we would be better off is a matter of "what if" conjecture, but I think it's a good example of the original understanding of karma. One thing opens up a whole different can of worms.
There was once a young boy who went to highschool.
He was quiet, bookish lone wolf, who kept to himself mostly, and never did anything to bother or hurt anyone.
One day, a group of bullies spotted this boy, and decided it would be fun to pick on him.
They called him names, they threw things at him, they made fun of him in front of all the rest of his classmates.
The young boy though, was a buddhist, and believed that he shouldn't retaliate in any way, lest things got worse and create negative karmic energy.
Still though, the bullies were relentless, and picked on him for many years, and they kept doing it, knowing they could get away with it because the young boy never fought back.
One day, the biggest member of their group, saw the young boy at his locker getting his books ready for the next class.
He went up to him and pushed him up against his locker and started throwing him around.
Very soon, a crowd of students had seen what was happening, and were gathered around the two, none of them trying to help the boy, but instead, a chant happened.
"Fight fight fight!"
The young boy picked himself up off the ground. The young boy couldn't take it anymore. What his assailant didn't know was, this boy was also a martial artist.
He turned to his attacker, waited for him to strike once more, and he countered his punch and then sweeped his opponents leg, sending him crashing to the ground.
He was filled with anger, he was filled with rage. He had a chance to really give it to his attacker now.
But instead, he turned his back on him, and walked away, and said "You're an asshole who's just not worth it."
His attacker picked himself up, and started running towards the boy with his back turned.
"And you'll be a bigger asshole if you decide to strike me while my back is turned".
The bully stopped. He turned around. The crowd disappeared. The boy went to class.
Shortly after that, the bully left the school, and the boy was never bothered again.
Many years later, the Young boy became a young man, and was traveling around when he spotted a familiar face coming towards him.
It was the bully. And he recognized him. He ran up the young man, and said, "Do you remember me?"
"Yes, I do remember you."
The bully shook the young mans hand, and said "Listen, I want you to know, I'm really sorry about what happened all those years ago. Actually, you taught me a lot that day, and I realized that it was wrong, and I did a lot of wrong things. I never picked on anyone again from that day, and I hope that you're doing OK"
The young man smiled, and said "It's ok. You learned your lesson, and I learned mine. You taught me that all my conceptions about karma were wrong. You have to make it happen, not wait for it to happen. Have a nice day. Asshole."
Quote from: Lysergic on June 16, 2010, 03:50:35 PM
There was once a young boy who went to highschool.
He was quiet, bookish lone wolf, who kept to himself mostly, and never did anything to bother or hurt anyone.
One day, a group of bullies spotted this boy, and decided it would be fun to pick on him.
They called him names, they threw things at him, they made fun of him in front of all the rest of his classmates.
The young boy though, was a buddhist, and believed that he shouldn't retaliate in any way, lest things got worse and create negative karmic energy.
Still though, the bullies were relentless, and picked on him for many years, and they kept doing it, knowing they could get away with it because the young boy never fought back.
One day, the biggest member of their group, saw the young boy at his locker getting his books ready for the next class.
He went up to him and pushed him up against his locker and started throwing him around.
Very soon, a crowd of students had seen what was happening, and were gathered around the two, none of them trying to help the boy, but instead, a chant happened.
"Fight fight fight!"
The young boy picked himself up off the ground. The young boy couldn't take it anymore. What his assailant didn't know was, this boy was also a martial artist.
He turned to his attacker, waited for him to strike once more, and he countered his punch and then sweeped his opponents leg, sending him crashing to the ground.
He was filled with anger, he was filled with rage. He had a chance to really give it to his attacker now.
But instead, he turned his back on him, and walked away, and said "You're an asshole who's just not worth it."
His attacker picked himself up, and started running towards the boy with his back turned.
"And you'll be a bigger asshole if you decide to strike me while my back is turned".
The bully stopped. He turned around. The crowd disappeared. The boy went to class.
Shortly after that, the bully left the school, and the boy was never bothered again.
Many years later, the Young boy became a young man, and was traveling around when he spotted a familiar face coming towards him.
It was the bully. And he recognized him. He ran up the young man, and said, "Do you remember me?"
"Yes, I do remember you."
The bully shook the young mans hand, and said "Listen, I want you to know, I'm really sorry about what happened all those years ago. Actually, you taught me a lot that day, and I realized that it was wrong, and I did a lot of wrong things. I never picked on anyone again from that day, and I hope that you're doing OK"
The young man smiled, and said "It's ok. You learned your lesson, and I learned mine. You taught me that all my conceptions about karma were wrong. You have to make it happen, not wait for it to happen. Have a nice day. Asshole."
:mittens:
Thanks. True story, btw. :wink:
I know this chick who fancies herself an agent of karma
she was renting a room from this crazy woman who made her life hell for a little while. When the chick moved out, she put ground beef in the air ducts, planted pot seeds all over the yard, and executed a few other nasty revenge pranks which would take weeks or months to find.
And while I don't object to this, I don't think it's really an act of Karma Fulfillment so much as it's an act of Vengeance. Calling it Karma was just a way for her to feel better about the vile pranks she was planting, as if she was serving some just cosmic force.
Quote from: Cramulus on June 16, 2010, 05:29:50 PM
I know this chick who fancies herself an agent of karma
she was renting a room from this crazy woman who made her life hell for a little while. When the chick moved out, she put ground beef in the air ducts, planted pot seeds all over the yard, and executed a few other nasty revenge pranks which would take weeks or months to find.
And while I don't object to this, I don't think it's really an act of Karma Fulfillment so much as it's an act of Vengeance. Calling it Karma was just a way for her to feel better about the vile pranks she was planting, as if she was serving some just cosmic force.
Yeah, vengeance is different.
There's a difference between making a situation better and making it worse, all I could see that doing is creating more negative karma in said crazy woman, only driving her craziness further.
I'm sure there are more creative ways that could have been taken to stop the negative karmic flow.
The moral to my story isn't that we should attack people that cause trouble, the point is you should attack the problem, the person is a secondary consequence of attacking the primary.
Personally I prefer gnawing on the bones of my fallen enemies way to much to buy into some abstract, hippy, stopping the wheel of karma bullshit
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 16, 2010, 05:53:42 PM
Personally I prefer gnawing on the bones of my fallen enemies way to much to buy into some abstract, hippy, stopping the wheel of karma bullshit
Get into a lot of fights with the sheep then, eh?
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 16, 2010, 05:53:42 PM
Personally I prefer gnawing on the bones of my fallen enemies way to much to buy into some abstract, hippy, stopping the wheel of karma bullshit
You gotta be careful doing that, it could leave enough dental marks on it for police to positively ID you, you know.
Luckily for me most of my enemies are the police
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 16, 2010, 06:11:22 PM
Luckily for me most of my enemies are the police
In that case, I can see how this would work to your advantage.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 16, 2010, 06:11:22 PM
Luckily for me most of my enemies are the police
This is Britain, the Police are all of our enemies. (Except the chewed up ones, they're just bones)
But at least you can see them coming, since they gave up the "Boys in Blue" image, for the "Boys in Dayglo Yellow" one.
Quote from: Lysergic on June 14, 2010, 03:39:39 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 14, 2010, 03:25:02 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on June 14, 2010, 03:00:17 PM
You know, channel bad energy into usefulness by using it for good?
Like, for example, if someone raped a child, stabbing the rapist in the face and a couple of times in the crotch and then dumping them in the middle of the desert with a water bottle? (You know, in buddha's infinite mercy and all?)
if I understand it properly, this doesn't use the energy for good, this just sends the bad energy out further
the rapists parents, children, a lifetime of acquaintances, who did nothing wrong, now suffer a loss
and they will, in turn, go hurt others
I'm reminded of RAW's description of Karma in --Cosmic Trigger, I think?
he had a section about how his young daughter got her ass kicked really hard by some black thugs
they were still carrying around the injustice done to their ancestors, still paying back the white man all that bad karma
and RAW's daughter, innocent little girl, forgave them. She bore them no ill will. She refused to become afraid of black people, refused to retract and hide, because of this one injustice. She stopped the wheel- by not seeking revenge, by not embracing fear, she halted the cascade of harm being paid back and forth into the future
Sure, it's easy enough to forgive a group of former slaves who are still a bit pissy about havin been used and abused by white society, not to mention, they picked on a *girl* so it's not like the option of fighting back was *really* there, but someones just raped and abused someone you love and care about, and the rapist does this on a few more people for good measure.
Let's see you *forgive* this rapist and ignore him after he's mentally and physically destroyed your spouse/mother/sister.
Quote from: Cramulus on June 14, 2010, 03:44:21 PM
that's what RAW wrote about. He was about to become really hardened to this world because of the terrible experience his daughter had.
And instead, he was astonished by his daughter's ability to forgive -- despite the enormous injustice that was transferred onto her.
That's what he meant by "stopping the karma wheel". When you've been destroyed, it's really really difficult to not rekindle that destruction and pass it on to everybody else. But if we want to live in a better world, (and I know, not everybody does) we have to transcend those basic revenge impulses because they will keep getting bounced back between one another forever.
Thanks Cram, I think I really needed to hear that.
I've been on a bit of revenge trip for a while now, not that I actually acted out any revenge (I was busy and had no good/original/funny/workable ideas :)), but the feelings and thoughts were there.
You just convinced me to forgive some people (quite a few, in fact) and this will, I suppose, in some way make me a littlebit better of a person :)
One at a time. I think I'll start with the people at the hospital during the start of my burnout. The cardiologist and the apprentice psychiatrist.
Quote from: Rumckle on June 14, 2010, 03:58:29 PM
One idea I've been thinking a bit about lately is the idea of karma in a psychosomatic sense. If you do good things you feel happy, and when you feel happy people act positively towards you. Or something like that.
totally. which is why I said that forgiveness will somehow make me a bit of a better person.
that anger is with me all the time. it used to be that I actually started shaking as I told people about those hospital episodes. in fact, I just noticed I was furiously twitching my feet as I just wrote that*. and every time I ride past that hospital the mistreatment there, still, it often crosses my mind.
(FYI it wasnt that particularly bad, they just didn't help or treat me, at all, for months, meanwhile I was crumbling into a miserable heap of stressed confusion, and finally they prescribed me Ritalin, which being a stimulant, sent me over the edge into panic attack mode. then I went some place else and things got a lot better, but slowly)
* feet are rather sensitive to subconscious thoughts and feelings when it comes to body language
Besides, you get a lot of good prank ideas _after_ you've truly forgiven some-one. :evil: :fnord:
I've been known to forgive, but rarely to forget.
On the other hand, forgiveness granted without redress of the original problem isn't a virtue, it's being a doormat. If someone deliberately insults you badly enough to get under your skin, and you just forgive them without an apology, for example, then you're not being magnanimous, you're being a wimp.
169% agreed
absolutely. in the hospital example, I will intend to avoid that particular hospital if I can help it, I just intend to stop getting angry and worked up every time I have to think about it, like when riding past it.
Quote from: Lysergic on June 14, 2010, 01:38:12 PM
I used to believe in Karma til I had a better look at the world and realized that good people can be punished for nothing, and bad people can flourish despite punishing all the good people for selfish and material reasons.
Now I Believe karma is what bad people convince good people exist so good people won't have an excuse to punch bad people whenever they get screwed over by them.
It's quite ingenious really. ...
So in answer to the question: Karma is a nice little fairytale for those who have been screwed so they have a reason to wake up instead of killing themselves if they knew the futile truth of reality or are just too big a hippy pussy to actually help push Karma in the right direction.
TL;DR
Karma exists, but only for those who choose to retaliate against injustice and inhumanity instead of running away and hoping a random and chaotic universe that doesn't give a fuck about hippies will do something to avenge the perceived wrongs against said hippies.
KARMA EXISTS IN THAT YOU WILL BE PEOPLE LIKE SHIT THEY WILL GET PISSED OFF. NAO BEND OVER HIPPIE! I GOT SOME PATCHOULI I WANNA TRY OUT!
I suppose there is a link between Karma and forgiveness, but not in a cause and effect way, in that if you forgive so & so, then this will happen, and happy times will occur because of it.
Feelings of anger and resentment that you carry, should really be offloaded as soon as you are able to do it. The risk of holding onto these negative feelings, is that we become so familier with the rush of righteous anger, and the accompanying bursts of stress hormones that we end up incorporating it into our personalities. Then we hold it close, like it's a dear thing, feed it, keep it burning, and it sublimates into hatred. So before we know it, instead of having some unresolved anger issues with someone, you begin to hate them. And Hatred is a very high maintenance, and consuming thing. The closest thing, in fact to love.
But love is a workable, expressable "day to day" emotion, and the reciprocating dynamic of it is beneficial to our wellbeing, and emotional developement. There are socially acceptable ways of beaming it out to the world, that are noticeable, generally pleasant, and good for everyone concerned.
But Hatred, is often a private indulgence, that we immerse ourselves in, revelling in it's turgid potential for redress and having no way to safely express it, it consumes us, and grows bigger and more toxic, the longer we hold onto it, until it would tear our very lives apart to lose control of it.
It spills out into our motivations, and colours our actions, like a leaky 45 Gallon drum full of toxic waste.
It adds a flavour to every breath we take, and every other emotion and process eventually become orbital things, as the hatred becomes the hub of our wheel.
At these extremes, going postal, and killing everyone around you in an explosion of red misted rage, pain and death, starts to look like a possible option.
In extreme cases it becomes the only option, and that's why people go on killing sprees, and why these events so often end in suicide. When the hate has been answered with a orgy of killing, the person becomes empty. Realise what they have done, and take their own lives as the coup de grace.
The only way to offload, (other than the above) is to forgive people. Not because they learned their lesson, but because you can no longer afford to invest what it's taking to keep it burning.
The people you held the original issues with, won't necessarily benefit from your forgiveness, and, truth be told, may have been totally unaware of the way you've been feeling towards them. You are not doing them a favour by forgiving them, you are not condoning what they did. Anyway, by now the level of hatred may well be so disproportionate to the original offence, that any kind of revenge you take, is so very over the top, that it would no longer redress the balance, but break the scales, and set off a whole new cycle of destruction.
You don't have to suddenly announce to anyone that they are now forgiven. But you do have to deal with the original issue. Let go of the destuctive thing you've been carrying around, for so long.
Send them a letter maybe.
"Look, what you did to **** all that time ago has been burning inside me like a fire, ever since you did it, to the extent that I've lost weeks of my life, just planning revenge, and destruction to be visited upon you, by me, at the first opportunity, you fucking nasty evil motherfucker"
"I have walked through a red mist, of your spilled lifeblood for so long, it became a constant scream that never stopped, not for a minute, and even now, is baying for me to take your life." I hope against hope, the consequences of what you did, have not been gentle with you. I like to think you have suffered greatly because of your actions, as have your victims. However, I'm telling you this because I've decided that I'm no longer seeking your death, or going to kill you. You know what you've done, and you know I have every reason to strike you down in vengeance and retribution."
"But I can no longer be bothered with it, and I'm writing this, to you, just in case you were unaware of how much your actions have affected my life."
"I trust next time you want to want to drive too fast around a corner, you'll think of my poor dead, squashed Tigger Puss, and slow down, you Cat murdering bastard!"
"OK, I'm done.,the cat is long dead, I'm not consumed with revenge anymore, but you are still a cat killing motherfucker!"
Then 25 years of hatred, disturbed dreams, vengeance fantasies, all gone! just like that. Now maybe the systematic and ruthless murder of every family member that he had, in needless, humiliating acts of violent and elaborate cruelty seem a little excessive. OK, so you loved that fucking cat! But it was quarter of a century ago! And an accident. And you're just lucky they never found the bodies.
(Totally fictitious scenario,btw, but those Cat people are just about crazy enough to fit the bill)
I agree with BadBeast's view here...
Monkeys do terrible shit to each other... the question is, when terrible shit is done to you, do you allow it to create new bars and bricks in your BIP, or do you deal with it, process it, release it and move on?
I think its less a question of forgiving the person that caused you harm, and more a question of what you're doing to yourself as a result of that harm. I have a friend who was devoted to his wife, married for 12 years and found out yesterday that she's been cheating on him for a year and a half. He could allow that to affect his relationships in the future, he could forgive her and take her back,
BUT more importantly, forgive or not forgive, he can not allow her actions to color his perceptions in the future. The first option continues 'the wheel', the second option may just be letting himself get stepped on, the final option though is 'stopping' the wheel... irregardless of what he and she decide to do about their relationship.