http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/06/15/touchdown-jesus-burns-to-ground-as-porn-shop-goes-unscathed/
QuoteThe "Touchdown Jesus," a six-story tall statue (also known as "Big Butter Jesus") outside an Ohio church, was torched by a lightning bolt late Monday night and completely incinerated. In a demonstration of God's keen sense of irony, the "Hollywood Hustler" sign at a nearby porn shop was left unscathed, .
Quote"God struck God, I like the irony. Jesus struck Jesus," Dawn Smith, 25, told the Dayton Daily News. "I had to see it. What else are you going to do on a Monday night?"
:lulz:
:lulz:
I liked this bit too: "Church founder and former horse trader Lawrence Bishop and his wife paid $250,000 for the statue in an attempt to help people, according to the Associated Press." -- I just find it interesting the depths to which people can confuse attention-seeking with charity.
Maybe if they had made the thing out of Ramen Noodles and invited poor people to make a pilgrimage and eat his noodly appendages.
Wow, that thing was made out of styrofoam? No wonder it lit the fuck up. Rather tacky. And funny considering that it is from the "Solid Rock Church"
I now have the Temple of the Dog song "Wooden Jesus" stuck in my head, cept it's now Touchdown Jesus.
Quote from: RWHN on June 21, 2010, 05:49:25 PM
I now have the Temple of the Dog song "Wooden Jesus" stuck in my head, cept it's now Touchdown Jesus.
DAMMIT RWHN :crankey:
Quote from: RWHN on June 21, 2010, 05:49:25 PM
I now have the Tom Waits song "Chocolate Jesus" stuck in my head, cept it's now Touchdown Jesus.
Also Quicksand Jesus by Skid Row.
I've got "The Levellers" rendition of plastic Jesus. Seems appropriate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydESXqIOyHw
Jesus Jones -- "I'm Burning"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojwKYlDjG5E
Quote from: Jerry_Frankster on June 21, 2010, 08:30:16 PM
Jesus Jones -- "I'm Burning"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojwKYlDjG5E
I went to school with their frontman, Mike Edwards.
Quote from: BadBeast on June 21, 2010, 08:41:47 PM
Quote from: Jerry_Frankster on June 21, 2010, 08:30:16 PM
Jesus Jones -- "I'm Burning"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojwKYlDjG5E
I went to school with their frontman, Mike Edwards.
Right There? Right Then?
Are you for real, real, real?
:facepalm:
Quote from: RWHN on June 21, 2010, 08:59:38 PM
Quote from: BadBeast on June 21, 2010, 08:41:47 PM
Quote from: Jerry_Frankster on June 21, 2010, 08:30:16 PM
Jesus Jones -- "I'm Burning"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojwKYlDjG5E
I went to school with their frontman, Mike Edwards.
Right There? Right Then?
Are you for real, real, real?
Yeah, for real real real. (Doesn't mean I think they're any good though)
"Are You Drinking With Me, Jesus?" --- Mojo Nixon
Yeah, we thought that was ironically hilarious. Gonna be fun explaining that to the insurance company. Wonder if they had an "Act of God" clause?
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on June 21, 2010, 04:36:58 PM
Wow, that thing was made out of styrofoam? No wonder it lit the fuck up. Rather tacky. And funny considering that it is from the "Solid Rock Church"
I would love to know how a big pile of styrofoam and some rebar cost them a quarter of a million dollars.
Ah know, let's build a giant lightning rod and
encase it in flammable material, for Jesus.
\
:mullet:
\
Aw shit, it gone burned the fuck down,
let's rebuild it!
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 22, 2010, 01:34:32 AM
Ah know, let's build a giant lightning rod and
encase it in flammable material, for Jesus.
\
:mullet:
\
Aw shit, it gone burned the fuck down,
let's rebuild it!
I guess Thor or Zeus had the final word on that.
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 21, 2010, 02:56:00 PM
:lulz:
I liked this bit too: "Church founder and former horse trader Lawrence Bishop and his wife paid $250,000 for the statue in an attempt to help people, according to the Associated Press." -- I just find it interesting the depths to which people can confuse attention-seeking with charity.
It's confusing evangelism with charity (although attention-seeking may be no small part of it.) Evangelical groups tend to measure their impact/success by the number of people who have been 'saved' or 'born again' or even just been exposed to their ideas about sin and salvation. It's the natural conclusion of a
sola fide theology; these aren't the people who believe that from faith comes good works, but rather that faith
is good works - the
only form of good works. The only kind of charity that
exists is spreading the faith - saving even a single soul is infinitely more important that alleviating any number of material ills. All suffering is rooted in a lack of God in your life; giving a man a fish may feed him for a day, teaching him to fish may feed him for the rest of his life, but those can only ever satisfy material hunger, a misunderstanding of the natural spiritual hunger for God - and no number of fish will ever fill that hole. So why bother? Give the starving man a Bible, and his soul will bask in the glory of God for all eternity. In this mindset, building a humongous statue of Jesus on the interstate really does help people, because it reminds them of Jesus, who is the only thing worth thinking about.
It's the same reasoning behind taking perfectly good songs and replacing the lyrics with poorly-written stuff about God and Jesus and Salvation and Heaven and all that. Listening to a perfectly good song means that you like the song and are paying attention to it, instead of liking and paying attention to Jesus, which is better. Solid Rock Church would honestly prefer people to contemplate Jesus then to pay attention to the road they're traveling on in excess of 100 km/hr.
Cain had a good essay about Discordia as an antidote to nihilism that touched on these issues somewhere around here ....
Thanks, that makes more sense, even it if it also more depressing to consider.
Found it:
Discordianism as Perfect Nihilism
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=23189.0
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 22, 2010, 02:44:49 AM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 21, 2010, 02:56:00 PM
:lulz:
I liked this bit too: "Church founder and former horse trader Lawrence Bishop and his wife paid $250,000 for the statue in an attempt to help people, according to the Associated Press." -- I just find it interesting the depths to which people can confuse attention-seeking with charity.
It's confusing evangelism with charity (although attention-seeking may be no small part of it.) Evangelical groups tend to measure their impact/success by the number of people who have been 'saved' or 'born again' or even just been exposed to their ideas about sin and salvation. It's the natural conclusion of a sola fide theology; these aren't the people who believe that from faith comes good works, but rather that faith is good works - the only form of good works. The only kind of charity that exists is spreading the faith - saving even a single soul is infinitely more important that alleviating any number of material ills. All suffering is rooted in a lack of God in your life; giving a man a fish may feed him for a day, teaching him to fish may feed him for the rest of his life, but those can only ever satisfy material hunger, a misunderstanding of the natural spiritual hunger for God - and no number of fish will ever fill that hole. So why bother? Give the starving man a Bible, and his soul will bask in the glory of God for all eternity. In this mindset, building a humongous statue of Jesus on the interstate really does help people, because it reminds them of Jesus, who is the only thing worth thinking about.
It's the same reasoning behind taking perfectly good songs and replacing the lyrics with poorly-written stuff about God and Jesus and Salvation and Heaven and all that. Listening to a perfectly good song means that you like the song and are paying attention to it, instead of liking and paying attention to Jesus, which is better. Solid Rock Church would honestly prefer people to contemplate Jesus then to pay attention to the road they're traveling on in excess of 100 km/hr.
Cain had a good essay about Discordia as an antidote to nihilism that touched on these issues somewhere around here ....
One of my best friends is a Lutheran minister (ok, two of them, and they're married to each other), and I don't want to speak for them, but I think I know them well enough to get their reactions to this:
Fucking retarded.
The particular unit in that marital construct that I had in mind has a brother who wanted to witness to others to spread God's glory.
Naturally, since he grew up in the Midwest, he was preaching to the choir, and probably looking like a weird religious fanatic in the process (and since he was "non-denominational" as opposed to mainstream Protestant, I'd put $20 on it).
Wonder how that's all working out for him. The marital unit in question has other things to worry about (ie their congregations) so I'm not going to ask. But it does offer me the occasional yuk.
Best part:
I met both husband and wife's families. One of them is a preacher's kid, following in their father's footsteps. That father welcomed me into his home, and ironically that Sunday had to preach about false gods, knowing full well that I was a former Christian turned other (Pagan), and that an atheist friend was also in the audience. He did a very good job, instead preaching about the ills of capitalism and the worship of money and material posessions (Go Rev. XXX!!!). The other spouse's parent called them up during a tornado warning to tell them that maybe it's the right time to talk to me and my atheist friend about Jesus. Like we haven't heard about him before.
Thanks for the link GA! I got a lot more out of that essay this time than I did last year.
The thing which bugs me about interacting with some Fundamentalists is the false mask they'll show you. LIke, they'll be friendly and pretend to be interested in your differing opinions.. but they'll always remain steadfast. Why? Because you're not talking with them, you're being talked at by their mask - and if you cease to provide them with whatever strategic benefit they think you give them - you'll be disposed of like a used kleenex.
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 22, 2010, 02:11:19 PM
Thanks for the link GA! I got a lot more out of that essay this time than I did last year.
The thing which bugs me about interacting with some Fundamentalists is the false mask they'll show you. LIke, they'll be friendly and pretend to be interested in your differing opinions.. but they'll always remain steadfast. Why? Because you're not talking with them, you're being talked at by their mask - and if you cease to provide them with whatever strategic benefit they think you give them - you'll be disposed of like a used kleenex.
Lesson learned: Do not attempt friendship with evangelists - they are good for mockery and lulz, nothing else.
There was an Charismatic Evangelist in the town I grew up in, a small man, worked as a supply teacher, and a youth club worker for the County Council. Quiet, polite, kindly, would always pick you up if you were hitchiking, friendly, a typical Geography Teacher type, right down to the leather patches on his elbows. Everyone knew him, no-one disliked him, he was exactly what the non-Churchgoing, but decent middle class people of the town would expect of a small 'c' christian. Lions club, Rotary Club, local charities, etc.
One time, when I was in my early 20's, he picked me up, hitchiking, I wasn't living anywhere in particular, and on my way to a festival. Asked me where I was going, so I told him. He said he was driving over that way the following morning, and if I wanted, I could have some lunch, at his house, stay over for thew night and he would give me a ride in the morning. Sounded good to me, so we went back to his house. I knew his wife, vaguely, his daughter (from his first marriage) was a bit older than me, and she had left home, and gone to live with her mother by the coast.
'Ho hum', I thought. This might be a bit strained, or boring, but it was only until the morning, so I pasted my 'that's very interesting, tell me more' face on, nodded where appropriate, and by Teatime, I was wishing I had not taken him up on his offer. Anyway, sat at the table, just about to tuck in, but he raised his hands, and started to say Grace. I had no religious upbringing as a child, didn't know any Churchgoing folks, so it was the first time I'd seen anyone pray in their home. Bit weird, I thought, but each to their own.
After Dinner, he said to me, "Would you like to come and meet some friends of mine, we have a bit of a meeting on Thursday nights, a few beers, and talk about stuff"
I knew what he meant by stuff. He meant fucking Jesus! But I wasn't going to spurn his hospitality, that would have been really rude, and at the end of the day, he wasn't a bad bloke, just a bit of a nutty Jesus type. So I agreed to go with him, it was only a couple of hours, and there was a promise of a few beers in it. So along I went. It was in some big House, a friend of his, he said they took it in turns to host Thursday nights. All very middle class, coffee morning women, and Civil Service husbands. Even a few 6 or 7 year old brats, But they all had a bit of the 'Stepford' about them, behind the eyes. I just wanted to get out of there. All my alarm bells were ringing, but for no obvious reason that I could see. But I sat down, and grabbed a pot of fucking disgusting ' Nettle Beer' and tried to look inconspicuous.
Then, my man, (I'll call him Graham, because that wasn't his name) Said, "Right, shall we begin?" everyone turned their attention to him, he picked up his "Good News Bible" and started to read some passages out. From the book of Daniel. But his voice changed. It became slower, and lower, and pitched in a really hypnotic tone. It was like he was a different man. The rapt faces of the other perhaps 12 people in the room, all turned towards him. Horrorbliss.
There was no sound but his voice, I could swear that I had been listening for only a few seconds, when his voice became different again. He'd read the first six chapters of Daniel, and I knew this, because I had the story in my head, about Nebuchadnezzer coming and laying siege to Jerusalem, and conquering it, and how Daniel swore never to defile himself on the new King's meat, at table, but begged nothing but pulses and water for 10 days. I don't know how I knew it, because I'd never read it, or been told it, as far as I knew except in the last (as I'd thought) couple of minutes. I remember it to this day.
At chapter seven, his voice changed gear, and he started on about Daniels dreams, freaky shit, four great beasts coming up from the sea, etc, then the bloke nearest to me, fell on the floor, and started having some kind of fit, his eyes rolled back, and he began to convulse. Now, this wasn't right, I knew there was at least one Doctor in the room, but everyone was still looking at Graham, faces full of blank fappy adoration. The bloke on the floor became more and more animated, like he was having a fit, so I said "Shouldn't someone see to him? He doesn't look well" every face in the room snapped towrds me, and the look on their faces, all of them, just for an instant, was one of outraged hostility, as if I had just suggested we all take turns on the Familys Labrador. I've seen that look since, on the faces of people who have just been disturbed at a particularly tricky bit of their new game, as they look around, the naked empty rage, well, that was the look I got from a dozen frothy Christians, all at once, after I'd just been hypnotically speed taught Half a book of the Old Testament.
Their look was quickly masked, and one of the Women explained to me quietly, that he was full of the 'Holy Spirit', and he would be fine, and to just leave him alone, and concentrate on the 'lesson'. At that point, Graham ramped up the intensity right up to eleven, and then some. I was fucking shocked, his eyes shone, his breathing changed, and his arms began emphasising his words. If the volume was turned down, you could have dubbed Adolf Hitler's Nurenberg speech over his voice, and it would have sounded more natural. He was absolutely and totally fucking posessed. The others began nodding, and saying stuff like "Praise be" and "Take me Lord", falling to their knees, and then, to add a little more surrealness to the whole scene, they began gibbering in fucking babytalk nonsense, and shaking and throwing back thier heads in ecstasy. Graham was shouting out some right horrorshow, beasts with metal teeth, and horns, devouring, and smashing some other beast with hoofs,and thrones, and waving his arms around, at the frenzied pile of gibbering, twitching,freakshow motherfuckers all across the room, and I started to laugh.
Not just a nervous giggle, but corpsing uncontrollably, tears streaming down my face, gouts of green snot, coming out of my nose, and absolutely no control over it. The more I tried to stop, the worse it got.
Graham came striding across the room, and held my head, and started saying the tears, and weeping, (he thought I was 'weeping for the sins of the world') were just the outward signs that I was being filled with God's love, and it was all the sin coming out, and how I should just give myself over to the Lord God, and everything would be just ginger peachy.
His hands were laid across the top of my head, and he began to pray to God, to banish the dark spirit that had me in it's thrall, and cajoling some fucking demon to leave, and take its barbed hooks out of my soul. At this point, I realised that this whole setup, was primarily to brainwipe me into their cosy little group, and make me one of them in God's eyes, to bathe me in the blood of the Lamb. At this point, I stopped laughing, and tried to stand up. I was leaving. Right there and then.
As I stood up, Graham put his hands on my shoulders, and another bloke came up behind me, and began to gently, but firmly 'restrain' me.
That was where they went wrong. The man behind me, had pinned my arms to my sides, and Graham had started in frenzied whisper mode, reciting all these demonic names, trying to abdjure the demons out of me. The rest of them stood around, looking downwards, and praying feverishly. It was time to leave. I would have just ran out of the room, if I could have, but Graham was in front of me, and Matey was holding my arms to my side from behind. I threw my head back, really hard, and busted the restrainer right on his nose, splitting it open, swung at this babbling twat in front of me, and knocked him flat on his back. As I went to step over him to run out of the door, they all moved between me, and the exit, like I was the madman. Saying stuff like leave here Satan, leave this child of God, in God's hands, so I just fixed the nearest bloke in the eye and told him to get out of my fucking way, or I would kick his head right off his fucking shoulders.
I must have been very convincing, and I really was ready to kill someone, but he stepped out of the way, and I left. The women were hysterical, and crying, and I think the 'Holy Spirit' had left the building as soon as my head hit Mr 'you're staying with us now' restrainer.
That was the maddest, most surreal and scary situation I'd ever been in. I was so distraught, and angry, that I almost went back into the House, straight away to beat up on them all some more. I had been well and truly taken for a cunt, ever since he had picked me up. I remember when we got back to his place, he went straight to the phone to make some calls, but I didn't think anything of it up until that point. Fucking predators for Jesus. Shitnecked Bastards, all of them. That wasn't God, or Jesus in Graham, it was some fucking Demonic hungry thing, that was written all over his face. Either that, or it was a communal psychotic breakdown, shared by them all. But there was nothing Holy about it. At all. They wanted to feed on me. This I am certain of.
But the funny thing is, years later, on reflection, something was there, something good, and empowering, because just at the right moment, the corpsing fit that I had been disabled with, from his sideshow hypnotism, stopped, and the clarity that was left behind, was almost like a car wreck, slow, and quieted down, and when I nutted the bloke behind me, it was spot on the money, and just at the point that his hands loosened up a little, so I could get my arms free, and knock Adolf out the way, to get the fuck out of there.
And when I turned to go back in, I saw Grahams car keys were in the ignition, so I stole his car instead of going back in, to cause major fucking mayhem. If I had done, then the chances are, I would have got myself into a great deal of trouble, being far less practiced in self control than I am now. I seriously think that if I hadn't seen the car keys, I would have killed someone that night. So I drove to the Festival I had originally set out for. His wallet was in there too, with about £100 in it, so I had that too. And didn't feel at all like a thief.
I stayed on the road going from festival, to festival, site to site, all summer, and ended up spending the Winter squatting, in Haille Selassies Bath Mansion. Long empty, but still beautiful, we never knew whose it was, until the following March, when the Baaliffs came and read out the eviction notice, "On behalf of the Estate of the late Emperor, His Royal Highness King Haille Selassie, conquering Lion of the tribe of Judah, we hereby serve you with notice to quit" So, from one "House of God," to another, in 9 or ten months. Not bad going for a simple country lad like myself. 8)
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 22, 2010, 02:33:24 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 22, 2010, 02:11:19 PM
Thanks for the link GA! I got a lot more out of that essay this time than I did last year.
The thing which bugs me about interacting with some Fundamentalists is the false mask they'll show you. LIke, they'll be friendly and pretend to be interested in your differing opinions.. but they'll always remain steadfast. Why? Because you're not talking with them, you're being talked at by their mask - and if you cease to provide them with whatever strategic benefit they think you give them - you'll be disposed of like a used kleenex.
Lesson learned: Do not attempt friendship with evangelists - they are good for mockery and lulz, nothing else.
Chris Hedges's book
American fascists: the Christian Right and the war on America (http://books.google.com/books?id=tJBgvRsZkT4C&dq=the+war+on+america+chris&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=xS4hTPy7GcexnAfhy7F8&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false) talks about this. If they figure they can't hook you, they'll dump you, essentially. I suspect there's some sort of prize for whoever brings in the most converts. It's a good read, though it'll make you paranoid as hell.
That's quite the story BadBeast! Thanks for sharing it. Still, it's probably not as good as Grahams "The night Satan stole my car story" ;-)
Awesome story bad beast, do you mind, you know, using paragraphs when you type these things out though, to make it a bit easier to read?
Bit of an eyestrain when everything is clumped together is all.
Quote from: Lysergic on June 23, 2010, 08:44:56 AM
Awesome story bad beast, do you mind, you know, using paragraphs when you type these things out though, to make it a bit easier to read?
Bit of an eyestrain when everything is clumped together is all.
Sorry Peeps, Fixt.
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 23, 2010, 04:29:41 AM
That's quite the story BadBeast! Thanks for sharing it. Still, it's probably not as good as Grahams "The night Satan stole my car story" ;-)
Thanks.
I'd honestly never thought of approaching this story from Grahams point of view. "Demon stole my Datsun Stanza" :evil: I left his motor in a layby on the A354, between Weymouth and Dorchester, So if you're reading this, 'Graham' the reason I haven't been around to see you in 20 years is because you're a fuckin' fruitcake. :fap: Hope you're
captured raptured really soon.
Amen, BadBeast. The frothy types always unsettled me. It's most likely due to the fact that my parents were Unitarian Universalists who gave me books on world religions instead of taking me to a church. Maybe that's why I smelled something funny in the kool-aid when it was finally passed my way. I'd rather stand or fall by my own actions and get what I deserve than become a whitewashed thought-clone of some airheaded cult, big or small.
Badbeast - I can't help wondering what the congregations/denominations who do practice speaking in tongues and whatever those Spirit-induced fits are called would take away from this story if they read it. I don't think you'd come across as sympathetic to them (if only because you use the word 'fucking') but I am curious as to what they would think of Graham. Honest Christian who ran into a demon that was just to stubborn for him? Well-intentioned man whose bungling technique drove a soul even further away from the Lord than it already was?
Also curious as to what moral they would find in the story.
"You win some, you lose some?"
"There's just no helping some people?"
"People who aren't used to glossolalia might react poorly to it?"
"Avoid triggering the fight-or-flight panic response during evangelism?"
"Wear a helmet or get more than one guy to restrain someone when performing exorcisms?"
Quote from: Zyzyx on June 23, 2010, 04:01:27 PM
Amen, BadBeast. The frothy types always unsettled me. It's most likely due to the fact that my parents were Unitarian Universalists who gave me books on world religions instead of taking me to a church. Maybe that's why I smelled something funny in the kool-aid when it was finally passed my way. I'd rather stand or fall by my own actions and get what I deserve than become a whitewashed thought-clone of some airheaded cult, big or small.
I think that most people, in those circumstances, would have been turned off by that prayer meeting/exorcism. My theory is that for that to work, at some level you have to be willing to turn over something to an outside agency in exchange for support - people who already feel so desperate and impotent in the face of their challenges who are ready to turn to anything or anyone for help. A common feature of people's stories of their conversion to the more passionate forms of Christianity is them hitting rock-bottom, and the new religion being the thing that pulls them out.
Quote from: Hover Cat on June 22, 2010, 10:47:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 22, 2010, 02:33:24 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 22, 2010, 02:11:19 PM
Thanks for the link GA! I got a lot more out of that essay this time than I did last year.
The thing which bugs me about interacting with some Fundamentalists is the false mask they'll show you. LIke, they'll be friendly and pretend to be interested in your differing opinions.. but they'll always remain steadfast. Why? Because you're not talking with them, you're being talked at by their mask - and if you cease to provide them with whatever strategic benefit they think you give them - you'll be disposed of like a used kleenex.
Lesson learned: Do not attempt friendship with evangelists - they are good for mockery and lulz, nothing else.
Chris Hedges's book American fascists: the Christian Right and the war on America (http://books.google.com/books?id=tJBgvRsZkT4C&dq=the+war+on+america+chris&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=xS4hTPy7GcexnAfhy7F8&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false) talks about this. If they figure they can't hook you, they'll dump you, essentially. I suspect there's some sort of prize for whoever brings in the most converts. It's a good read, though it'll make you paranoid as hell.
Plenty of secular people will treat you like a tool to be used for their own gain or discarded - how nice are salesmen when they know that they have no chance, ever, of selling you anything? Bosses when they're dealing with lowly temps who don't have a way of complaining up the totem pole?
My problem isn't with evangelism per se, or even with Evangelicals. It's the people who treat faith as the end goal, rather than a means to improve yourself or your relationship with the divine or whatever. At that point, the only purpose of their faith is to create more faith. They can't even be said to have faith in God so much as they have faith in Faith. The faith never produces anything, like a rich man who never does anything with his money but invest it. The end result is a person with a lot of money on paper but nothing that could truly be called wealth - money never spent is merely academic. The only result of that kind of 'faith' is self-righteousness, arrogance, and insularity.
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 25, 2010, 01:21:42 AM
Badbeast - I can't help wondering what the congregations/denominations who do practice speaking in tongues and whatever those Spirit-induced fits are called would take away from this story if they read it. I don't think you'd come across as sympathetic to them (if only because you use the word 'fucking') but I am curious as to what they would think of Graham. Honest Christian who ran into a demon that was just to stubborn for him? Well-intentioned man whose bungling technique drove a soul even further away from the Lord than it already was?
Also curious as to what moral they would find in the story.
"You win some, you lose some?"
"There's just no helping some people?"
"People who aren't used to glossolalia might react poorly to it?"
"Avoid triggering the fight-or-flight panic response during evangelism?"
"Wear a helmet or get more than one guy to restrain someone when performing exorcisms?"
Quote from: Zyzyx on June 23, 2010, 04:01:27 PM
Amen, BadBeast. The frothy types always unsettled me. It's most likely due to the fact that my parents were Unitarian Universalists who gave me books on world religions instead of taking me to a church. Maybe that's why I smelled something funny in the kool-aid when it was finally passed my way. I'd rather stand or fall by my own actions and get what I deserve than become a whitewashed thought-clone of some airheaded cult, big or small.
I think that most people, in those circumstances, would have been turned off by that prayer meeting/exorcism. My theory is that for that to work, at some level you have to be willing to turn over something to an outside agency in exchange for support - people who already feel so desperate and impotent in the face of their challenges who are ready to turn to anything or anyone for help. A common feature of people's stories of their conversion to the more passionate forms of Christianity is them hitting rock-bottom, and the new religion being the thing that pulls them out.
Quote from: Hover Cat on June 22, 2010, 10:47:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 22, 2010, 02:33:24 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 22, 2010, 02:11:19 PM
Thanks for the link GA! I got a lot more out of that essay this time than I did last year.
The thing which bugs me about interacting with some Fundamentalists is the false mask they'll show you. LIke, they'll be friendly and pretend to be interested in your differing opinions.. but they'll always remain steadfast. Why? Because you're not talking with them, you're being talked at by their mask - and if you cease to provide them with whatever strategic benefit they think you give them - you'll be disposed of like a used kleenex.
Lesson learned: Do not attempt friendship with evangelists - they are good for mockery and lulz, nothing else.
Chris Hedges's book American fascists: the Christian Right and the war on America (http://books.google.com/books?id=tJBgvRsZkT4C&dq=the+war+on+america+chris&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=xS4hTPy7GcexnAfhy7F8&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false) talks about this. If they figure they can't hook you, they'll dump you, essentially. I suspect there's some sort of prize for whoever brings in the most converts. It's a good read, though it'll make you paranoid as hell.
Plenty of secular people will treat you like a tool to be used for their own gain or discarded - how nice are salesmen when they know that they have no chance, ever, of selling you anything? Bosses when they're dealing with lowly temps who don't have a way of complaining up the totem pole?
My problem isn't with evangelism per se, or even with Evangelicals. It's the people who treat faith as the end goal, rather than a means to improve yourself or your relationship with the divine or whatever. At that point, the only purpose of their faith is to create more faith. They can't even be said to have faith in God so much as they have faith in Faith. The faith never produces anything, like a rich man who never does anything with his money but invest it. The end result is a person with a lot of money on paper but nothing that could truly be called wealth - money never spent is merely academic. The only result of that kind of 'faith' is self-righteousness, arrogance, and insularity.
If I came across as unsympathetic to their particular brand of Christianity, it's probably because I am. Especially that particular lot. A few months after, they got their hands on a friend of mine, and he spent two years in and out of psychiatric units by the time they were done with him.
All parlour tricks, and headgames. I would be interested (vaguely) to hear their account of the night in question though. For many years it coloured my opinion of all Christians, and it was at least ten years before I could take any of them seriously at all. I'm well over that now though, and a couple of my best friends are Christians. I've talked to them about it, and they seem just as dismayed as I was. (Well, not quite, but nearly) And that 'speaking in tongues' is the freakiest bullshit, if you're not expecting it.
*prepares to plug book one more time* Sorry, probably last time, but it's directly relevant to the discussion and has some interesting stuff that dissects organizations like this.
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 25, 2010, 01:21:42 AM
Quote from: Zyzyx on June 23, 2010, 04:01:27 PM
Amen, BadBeast. The frothy types always unsettled me. It's most likely due to the fact that my parents were Unitarian Universalists who gave me books on world religions instead of taking me to a church. Maybe that's why I smelled something funny in the kool-aid when it was finally passed my way. I'd rather stand or fall by my own actions and get what I deserve than become a whitewashed thought-clone of some airheaded cult, big or small.
I think that most people, in those circumstances, would have been turned off by that prayer meeting/exorcism. My theory is that for that to work, at some level you have to be willing to turn over something to an outside agency in exchange for support - people who already feel so desperate and impotent in the face of their challenges who are ready to turn to anything or anyone for help. A common feature of people's stories of their conversion to the more passionate forms of Christianity is them hitting rock-bottom, and the new religion being the thing that pulls them out.
Discussed in the very first section of the book. You pretty much hit the nail on the head, but he talks about it in more detail and expands on it. It's usually people who were neglected by their family in one way or another - which is why their prime recruits are blue collar or the rich who were ignored or maltreated as kids (I'd give you some names for that last one, but my book is being held hostage by a friend).
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on June 25, 2010, 01:21:42 AM
Quote from: Hover Cat on June 22, 2010, 10:47:04 PM
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 22, 2010, 02:33:24 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 22, 2010, 02:11:19 PM
Thanks for the link GA! I got a lot more out of that essay this time than I did last year.
The thing which bugs me about interacting with some Fundamentalists is the false mask they'll show you. LIke, they'll be friendly and pretend to be interested in your differing opinions.. but they'll always remain steadfast. Why? Because you're not talking with them, you're being talked at by their mask - and if you cease to provide them with whatever strategic benefit they think you give them - you'll be disposed of like a used kleenex.
Lesson learned: Do not attempt friendship with evangelists - they are good for mockery and lulz, nothing else.
Chris Hedges's book American fascists: the Christian Right and the war on America (http://books.google.com/books?id=tJBgvRsZkT4C&dq=the+war+on+america+chris&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=xS4hTPy7GcexnAfhy7F8&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false) talks about this. If they figure they can't hook you, they'll dump you, essentially. I suspect there's some sort of prize for whoever brings in the most converts. It's a good read, though it'll make you paranoid as hell.
Plenty of secular people will treat you like a tool to be used for their own gain or discarded - how nice are salesmen when they know that they have no chance, ever, of selling you anything? Bosses when they're dealing with lowly temps who don't have a way of complaining up the totem pole?
My problem isn't with evangelism per se, or even with Evangelicals. It's the people who treat faith as the end goal, rather than a means to improve yourself or your relationship with the divine or whatever. At that point, the only purpose of their faith is to create more faith. They can't even be said to have faith in God so much as they have faith in Faith. The faith never produces anything, like a rich man who never does anything with his money but invest it. The end result is a person with a lot of money on paper but nothing that could truly be called wealth - money never spent is merely academic. The only result of that kind of 'faith' is self-righteousness, arrogance, and insularity.
Of course. But these churches encourage their members to do that and further - tell them to cut off connection with those who aren't members of the church if there's no chance they might be "saved" and this extends to family and friends. It's vicious.
The book sounds more and more like something I'm going to have to read. The tactical way in which they operate, with specific demographic target groups is as inherant in their system, as Lao Tse's 'Art of War' would be in a Military model.
The depth of planning (in my story) that was involved, didn't sink in properly for maybe three years. I mean, the fact that they probably never had regular 'Thursday Night meetings' at all.
The alternative, (that Graham rang his 'Recruitment Officer' up, saying "We've got a live one here, green light, all systems go") consideration, didn't occur to me for so long, because the logistical lengths such a plan would entail, just didn't seem
A/ Worth the effort, or
B/ A sane road to go down, ending in paranoia, and psychic sepsis.
I know that's what happened, because the friend I mentioned earlier, told me what happened to him was basicly the same story as mine, only it was a regular 'Tuesday night meeting'. He was also given Homebrewed Beer to drink, which suggests to me that a hypnotic type drug was added.
That, plus a little stage hypnotism, and I think they've obviously got a fairly successful basis for indoctrination.
The stumper, for me, is that even now, I don't think Graham had any ill intention towards me, he really was just acting as he thought a good 'Soldier of Christ' was supposed to.
And this is the main danger in a system or a Religion, that demands
blind faith. It stops doubt in it's tracks. And doubt, in my opinion, is absolutely essential for any kind of Spiritual growth.
Which is probably why 'Blind Faith' is such a cornerstone of all Abrahamic Religions. After all, that way lies Madness, Heresy, the Rack, and, ultimately the Inquisition.
"Lord, spare me from thy followers, who lacking the will to think for themselves, seek to still all thought in others. They condemn all question, as Sin, then castigate themselves in order that they might brand all thinkers, as Sinners, Goblin worshippers, and all round spags. This I ask, despite knowing you are only a hastily botched together tangle of Jungian Archetypes and tales to scare children, & therefore exist only at the whim of my capricious imagination. Amen,"
(Prayer of Priapicus Fukmuk)
sorry for the pedantry, but Sun Tzu wrote Art Of War.
Quote from: Rainy Day Pixie on June 29, 2010, 01:12:18 PM
sorry for the pedantry, but Sun Tzu wrote Art Of War.
That's OK Pix, what's a damp Tuesday morning good for, if not a little pedantry?
(http://www.linenoiz.com/pics/funny/johnny5_jesus.jpg)
LOL @ Johnny 5
Bad Beast, that's quite the experience. Personally, I can put up with a bunch of stuff, even go to church and talk about religion with people without mentioning my own lack of belief, and them never asking, and even if they do, I'd smile and encourage them to tell me about something else. I don't have a problem with religion.
But attempted exorcisms... Man, I don't know why, but that shit makes me ANGRY. I scared my grandmother half to death one day because she tried to use prayer to get the demons to leave me alone (I had a cup filled with a milk shake in my hand, which I crushed with my fist, making a terrible mess). They just don't appreciate how much work is involved in getting the demon in there in the first place, I guess. :P
That being said, I find it funny how every "act of God" that fits in with a particular Christian world view is praised and accepted, yet when God says something like "Thou shalt not make tacky sculptures of my son or thou shalt roast marshmallows by its light." they're like "There's no spiritual significance to that.". Keep in mind, I'm not targeting all Christians here, there are just some of them that go too far.
And yeah, before you mentioned it, Bad Beast, I found myself thinking they probably spiked your drink... It's highly possible.
BadBeast's story reminds me of my current landlady. I live with my parents(I'm 17, what of it?), and we've been renting the same apartment for a couple years now. In '08, she invited us to the Easter service at her church. I didn't particularly want to go, but my stepfather told me that these religious types were good for business and we had to present the image of a happy family. So I went along.
We get to the church, and it's one of these new churches with symbolic architecture. Triangles everywhere. This particular church was designed to look like a fish. We get inside, and this place is crowded. This is in the midst of my six-month depression trip, and it's all I can do to keep a straight face, let alone smile. Eventually, we make it to the chamber where the service is to take place. The room is huge. We sit next to the landlady, of course, who from here on shall be known as Helen. We have to wait a while for the room to fill up, but is it ever intense when the service gets going.
First, we're treated to a little video. It could be a trailer for a movie. Maybe a 300 ripoff. Amongst incredibly gritty images of Jesus on the cross, we're treated to a little explanation of how Jesus is the son of God, how he was crucified, how he was resurrected and how because of that anyone can get to heaven if they have faith. It would be hilarious if the energy in the room wasn't so intense. After this, a four-piece country band plays on the stage. They're actually quite talented. They're also very, very Christian.
Next, there's the first part of a pageant. You can tell Jesus apart by the brainlessly mellow tone of his actor's voice. He teaches a lesson about something. We get a sermon after this. Most of the rest of the service goes like this. It alternates between pageant and sermon, pageant and sermon, with the occasional morality tale thrown in. It's painfully boring, but not particularly offensive. Then we get near the end. And here come the testimonials.
There's a girl who lives in a town nearby. Let's call her Mary. Mary used to really get around. Mary used to drink. Mary used to do crystal meth with her fuck buddies. One day, Mary gets kicked out of her hovel. It was the cheapest place in town. She has nowhere else to go. She looks at her situation and knows that if it wasn't for the booze and the meth, she would've been able to pay that rent. She searches her soul, and she finds it withered in a pit. Maybe it wasn't just the booze and the meth. Maybe she's fucked up every decision in her life. Maybe she's been totally wrong about everything. Maybe she's a wreck. A husk. A freak. And it hurts. She collapses in despair. And when she looks up, she finds Jesus.
Mary gets a standing ovation.
There's a tiny grey bird of a woman. We'll call her Jane. Jane's husband was a military man. He was a good man and he spent his life serving overseas. He was a peacekeeper. One day, he's injured and gets sent home. This is fine with Jane. They don't spend enough time together anyway. They live together for quite a few years. The kids grow up and move out of the house. Soon, Jane and her husband are all alone together. And they've gotten old. It crept up on them. They've gotten old, and old people get check-ups. One day, they see the doctor. He looks uncomfortable, and they both know something isn't right before he asks about the husband's life insurance. Naturally, Jane is devastated. Her husband is bedridden with cancer, and it only gets worse. Jane breaks down. She might never see her husband again. Jane loses all hope. And she turns to the church. She gets involved. And her husband's health improves a bit. When he finally does die, Jane's faith carries her through it, and she sobs in the spotlight as she tells us all that she knows it was all a part of God's plan.
Over the applause, a voice in the front row cries "Praise the Lord!"
As she claps, Helen has tears of ecstasy in her eyes.
"Step right up!" says the pastor. "Who wants to be saved?"