Principia Discordia

I started a new topic so as not to derail the conversation happening in the other thread. So, hope you enjoy it, and don't forget to tell me what you think.

Politics is dead, at least as a means of enacting change. The political machine has become bloated with corruption, meaningless bureaucracies, and influences from the private sector. Getting even the simplest motions passed takes an inordinate amount of time and effort, and it will be useless with fine print. To get anything done you will have to make compromises, to let corrupt officials and corporate pawns destroy all the work that has been done. To do even a little good, you'll have to  sell your soul to the devil. Politics is a trail of tears culminating in a Faustian bargain, a road paved with the ideals and passions of the people.

   As for the so-called revolutionaries, those people who think that if they can just remove the power group, things will get better, don't trust them. Revolutionaries tend to be not better than those they are replacing, and even if they are idealists, they probably won't be able to handle the challenges of running a nation, or even better, they'll just turn on each other once their in power. See, the problem with just changing the power group is the people. The people sell out the revolution for cable TV and some Levi's, because when it comes down to it, most of them couldn't' give a shit about saving the world. So, revolutions don't change anything either.

   But there is another way, another means of changing a society. Politics may be damned and revolutions may be found wanting, but culture is still there. Language, values, customs, all of these things are elements of culture and all of them are ripe to be used for change. By changing the culture you can change the people, changing the way they think and perceive the world around them. Language is especially good for this. By first subverting a cultural idea and then replacing it, you can completely alter the way a society works.

   The manipulation of culture has been used before, most recently by the Culture Jamming movement. But this movement has not used the full range of culture. Culture Jammers have only used the most obvious methods, and have only subverted culture, without giving anything to replace it. Subtlety and patience is the key to changing culture, as the people are notoriously resistant to change, and will fight to defend their culture.

   The Culture Jamming movement is also too scattered to be of real effectiveness. It is composed of many small groups who each use their own unique method and fight their own private battle. A unified Culture Jamming movement would be capable of more. Culture change also requires a united front, and a group large enough to fulfill your goals.

   Like any method, culture has some inherent problems. Most importantly, it takes time. One of the most successful cultural changes in recent memory is the fight against racism. Starting over a hundred years ago with the abolitionist movement, the fight against racism continues even today. You will probably not see it come to fruition. Get used to that idea.

   Also, while cultural change is more effective than political or revolutionary change, it is also even more likely to fail. When you are trying to change the cultural makeup of a society, then that entire society is your enemy. The people you are doing this for will hate you, the power structure will call you deviants and terrorists, the corporations will try to profit off of you. The best way to avoid failure is too strike from as many angles as possible. Don't have just one plan, have a thousand plans. Don't just change the language, change the customs, or subvert the holidays. Cultural change is like fighting a guerrilla war, you cannot just march up and change society, you have to strike someplace vulnerable and then move on.

   Changing the world or even a society, is never easy or simple. But it is possible, if you're willing to deal with failure and frustration, if you're brave enough to keep going. Cultural change is not perfect, but if you're committed enough, it can do wonders.

Let's say you did succeed in changing culture.

What would success look like?

I'll let you know when I have the opportunity to experiment with these ideas more. I'm in a small town high school. Not really that much I can do here. But I've got a couple decent plans which I can start to put into effect when I get to college.

I agree with you about Culture Jamming - that in order to see change, you need to provide an alternative. But here we're addressing Culture Jamming as a tool for changing culture, which it may not be well suited for. I think it's a better tool for changing the individual.

I got turned on to culture jamming because I was walking back from class one day and I wandered into the middle of an improvisational performance art piece. I couldn't figure out what was happening, and the uncertainty filled me with the most distinct joy. Here were some people doing something for their own reasons - reasons which were not propped up by capitalism, politics, or vanity. To say it was refreshing would be an understatement.

and I think the key is in there somewhere. Last week I was walking around Tarrytown in my pith helmet and fake moustache, and I was constantly fielding questions about who I worked for, what organization I was with, etc. For christsake, people! I am just a silly man, I am not a mascot or ad campaign. I am having fun on planes they can't even comprehend.

We can't change culture - it's true. And to do so would be somewhat orwellian. But we can change individuals, and that's where culture comes from.


If we look at a company, a society, a city, and our own brains, we see structural similarities. You have multiple competing drives, some of which are very old. Some mechanisms are more powerful / influential than others. Somehow, the entire thing's behavior emerges from the pushpull of these zillions of drives and mechanisms (nodes). For change to occur in the system, the change must become the force influencing and informing those powerful nodes.

(that, in one paragraph, is what the art of memetics is about)

Change is coming, we're primed for it. I think the trick is to be in the right place at the right time so that the change can work through you. A successful revolution isn't going to look like we toppled the old thing and tapdanced on its ashes. It'll happen gradually, every day, little by little it's happening now.

So we are not looking at a model of change just for the sake of change?

If we are looking for change for betterment of all then who decides what the change will look like?

For example; I personally think a perfect world would drive 80% of the population batshit insane. We need strife. We need challenge.

How about "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness", but actually mean it this time?

QuoteBut here we're addressing Culture Jamming as a tool for changing culture, which it may not be well suited for. I think it's a better tool for changing the individual.

Culture Jamming, in my opinion, isn't using their tools to the extent that they could be used. They're more like political and revolutionary minds trying to use cultural tools. So, I can agree with culture jamming as it stands now, being more effective on an individual basis.

QuoteHere were some people doing something for their own reasons - reasons which were not propped up by capitalism, politics, or vanity. To say it was refreshing would be an understatement.

Pretty much my reaction when I discovered Culture Jamming, as well as this forum.

Quote
We can't change culture - it's true. And to do so would be somewhat orwellian. But we can change individuals, and that's where culture comes from

We can change culture, history has shown examples of where we can change culture. I gave a perfect example of a cultural change in the fight against racism. As for changing individuals to change culture, well that's pretty much what I mean. You subvert a cultural idea in the people's mind, and then replace it.

quote]
Change is coming, we're primed for it. I think the trick is to be in the right place at the right time so that the change can work through you. A successful revolution isn't going to look like we toppled the old thing and tapdanced on its ashes. It'll happen gradually, every day, little by little it's happening now.[/quote]

Agreed. That's what I'm saying.

QuoteIf we are looking for change for betterment of all then who decides what the change will look like?

No one decides what the change will look like. All you can do is try and influence what it will look like to better favor your ideas.

QuoteHow about "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness", but actually mean it this time?

THIS is a great idea.

related post from Chaos Marxism: http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com/2009/09/there-is-war-between-rich-and-poor-war.html

Quoterelated post from Chaos Marxism: http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com/2009/09/there-is-war-between-rich-and-poor-war.html

Interesting but not sure if I agree. I have more faith in the power of individuals than in mankind as a group.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 20, 2010, 08:16:37 PM

Quoterelated post from Chaos Marxism: http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com/2009/09/there-is-war-between-rich-and-poor-war.html

Interesting but not sure if I agree. I have more faith in the power of individuals than in mankind as a group.

To be young and idealistic again. Damn I miss those days.

QuoteTo be young and idealistic again. Damn I miss those days.

Ah, to be condescended. Damn, it makes me want to hit something.

I am not condenscending to you. I just understand that as long as people (especially Americans) have their flat screen televisions and their comforts that you are running into brick walls.

Honestly I would love to be proven wrong.

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:44:30 PM

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 20, 2010, 08:16:37 PM

Quoterelated post from Chaos Marxism: http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com/2009/09/there-is-war-between-rich-and-poor-war.html

Interesting but not sure if I agree. I have more faith in the power of individuals than in mankind as a group.

To be young and idealistic again. Damn I miss those days.

Not sure how that qualifies as idealism.

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:52:33 PM
I am not condenscending to you. I just understand that as long as people (especially Americans) have their flat screen televisions and their comforts that you are running into brick walls.

Honestly I would love to be proven wrong.

I think you misunderstood him completely.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 08:53:19 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:52:33 PM
I am not condenscending to you. I just understand that as long as people (especially Americans) have their flat screen televisions and their comforts that you are running into brick walls.

Honestly I would love to be proven wrong.

I think you misunderstood him completely.

Enlighten me please.

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:52:33 PM
as long as people (especially Americans) have their flat screen televisions and their comforts

So, until another European economy flatlines and takes down the entire global system with it?

I give it until Christmas.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 08:52:53 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:44:30 PM

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 20, 2010, 08:16:37 PM

Quoterelated post from Chaos Marxism: http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com/2009/09/there-is-war-between-rich-and-poor-war.html

Interesting but not sure if I agree. I have more faith in the power of individuals than in mankind as a group.

To be young and idealistic again. Damn I miss those days.

Not sure how that qualifies as idealism.

How much faith do you have in individuals Dok?

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:54:51 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 08:53:19 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:52:33 PM
I am not condenscending to you. I just understand that as long as people (especially Americans) have their flat screen televisions and their comforts that you are running into brick walls.

Honestly I would love to be proven wrong.

I think you misunderstood him completely.

Enlighten me please.

He says he has more faith in individuals than in the mass of humanity.

Please demonstrate the error in the statement:  "Individuals are more likely to do the right/smart thing than is the vast majority of humans taken as a whole."

Quote from: Cain on July 20, 2010, 08:55:34 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:52:33 PM
as long as people (especially Americans) have their flat screen televisions and their comforts

So, until another European economy flatlines and takes down the entire global system with it?

I give it until Christmas.

Now here you may have an excellent point.

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:56:32 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 08:52:53 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:44:30 PM

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 20, 2010, 08:16:37 PM

Quoterelated post from Chaos Marxism: http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com/2009/09/there-is-war-between-rich-and-poor-war.html

Interesting but not sure if I agree. I have more faith in the power of individuals than in mankind as a group.

To be young and idealistic again. Damn I miss those days.

Not sure how that qualifies as idealism.

How much faith do you have in individuals Dok?

Quite a bit, depending on the individuals in question.

I have precisely zero faith in mankind as a group.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 08:56:39 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:54:51 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 08:53:19 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:52:33 PM
I am not condenscending to you. I just understand that as long as people (especially Americans) have their flat screen televisions and their comforts that you are running into brick walls.

Honestly I would love to be proven wrong.

I think you misunderstood him completely.

Enlighten me please.

He says he has more faith in individuals than in the mass of humanity.

Please demonstrate the error in the statement:  "Individuals are more likely to do the right/smart thing than is the vast majority of humans taken as a whole."

Ok, I see the statement, it's just that I have no faith in people. Unless like Cain said they lose all their comforts and find themselves in the streets.

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:58:59 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 08:56:39 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:54:51 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 08:53:19 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:52:33 PM
I am not condenscending to you. I just understand that as long as people (especially Americans) have their flat screen televisions and their comforts that you are running into brick walls.

Honestly I would love to be proven wrong.

I think you misunderstood him completely.

Enlighten me please.

He says he has more faith in individuals than in the mass of humanity.

Please demonstrate the error in the statement:  "Individuals are more likely to do the right/smart thing than is the vast majority of humans taken as a whole."

Ok, I see the statement, it's just that I have no faith in people. Unless like Cain said they lose all their comforts and find themselves in the streets.

Oh, okay.  Then it's doom and gloom and hopelessness and we all die in the dark and the cold.

Glad we got that sorted out.  Let's all drive into bridge abuttments now.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:00:36 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:58:59 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 08:56:39 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:54:51 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 08:53:19 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 08:52:33 PM
I am not condenscending to you. I just understand that as long as people (especially Americans) have their flat screen televisions and their comforts that you are running into brick walls.

Honestly I would love to be proven wrong.

I think you misunderstood him completely.

Enlighten me please.

He says he has more faith in individuals than in the mass of humanity.

Please demonstrate the error in the statement:  "Individuals are more likely to do the right/smart thing than is the vast majority of humans taken as a whole."

Ok, I see the statement, it's just that I have no faith in people. Unless like Cain said they lose all their comforts and find themselves in the streets.

Oh, okay.  Then it's doom and gloom and hopelessness and we all die in the dark and the cold.

Glad we got that sorted out.  Let's all drive into bridge abuttments now.

And miss the show? Not a chance. Besides I really do want to be proven wrong.

Seeing 1 billion people stand up together ans say Enough! would make me the happiest person in the world.

I thought we were talking about individuals.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:04:02 PM
I thought we were talking about individuals.

We are. How many individuals would be required to effectively change things?

Quote"Individuals are more likely to do the right/smart thing than is the vast majority of humans taken as a whole."

That's pretty much what I believe. On and individual basis, more often than not, people are more or less okay. But when they get into groups, they get stupid and mean.

I believe that humanity as a whole has a lot of potential, but needs to grow up to achieve it. Right now, as a whole we're stupid and self destructive. I want to try and change that, if I can. It may be that there is little we can do to try and change humanity, but as long as I can try and still enjoy it, I'll keep going.

QuoteWe are. How many individuals would be required to effectively change things?

Oftentimes a shitload. But occasionally only one. It varies, from what I've read.

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 09:05:59 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:04:02 PM
I thought we were talking about individuals.

We are. How many individuals would be required to effectively change things?

Depends.  In the civil rights movement, it took about 200 leaders.  Out of 280,000,000 people.  So 1 in 1,400,000.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 20, 2010, 09:06:57 PM

Quote"Individuals are more likely to do the right/smart thing than is the vast majority of humans taken as a whole."

That's pretty much what I believe. On and individual basis, more often than not, people are more or less okay. But when they get into groups, they get stupid and mean.

The psychology is pretty well known.  Primate behavior changes as you add monkeys, and the big changes happen (for whatever reason) in multiples of 8.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:08:30 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 09:05:59 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:04:02 PM
I thought we were talking about individuals.

We are. How many individuals would be required to effectively change things?

Depends.  In the civil rights movement, it took about 200 leaders.  Out of 280,000,000 people.  So 1 in 1,400,000.

Don't forget to count all the non leaders in the street who were getting beaten and firehosed.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 20, 2010, 09:06:57 PM

Quote"Individuals are more likely to do the right/smart thing than is the vast majority of humans taken as a whole."

That's pretty much what I believe. On and individual basis, more often than not, people are more or less okay. But when they get into groups, they get stupid and mean.

I believe that humanity as a whole has a lot of potential, but needs to grow up to achieve it. Right now, as a whole we're stupid and self destructive. I want to try and change that, if I can. It may be that there is little we can do to try and change humanity, but as long as I can try and still enjoy it, I'll keep going.

I admire your efforts.

I think there is hope in trying to teach people how to operate their brains.

we have a lizard, an early mammal, and a rational human inside each of us, wrestling for control.

It took millions of years for us to develop this great brain. For most of our evolutionary history, we were stuck in the lower brains, our actions predestined by the laws of survival, territory, aggression, sexual reproduction. Now we have a cerebral cortex, and we can ignore or sublimate our reptilian urges. We're just not very good at it.

People like Tim Leary and Carl Sagan thought that there was a lot of hope contained there! We spent millions of years living like savages, killing each other with sticks and rocks, and then suddenly we have cities, writing, and the average person is not spending all day struggling for survival. The individual can be taught to orient himself on something bigger and cooler than the immediate tribe. The individual can learn to examine his own intelligence and refine it. If there is hope for our race, it comes with the idea that we can stop acting like lizards.

Is that possible (or desirable) to totally turn off the lower brains? fuck no! But you can learn to recognize when the lizard and monkey are sitting in the driver's seat and toss them out if they're driving recklessly. Maybe if we can get the economy and government to stop sending DANGER messages, people will be able to shake it off.

ah, wishful thinking

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 09:11:04 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:08:30 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 09:05:59 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:04:02 PM
I thought we were talking about individuals.

We are. How many individuals would be required to effectively change things?

Depends.  In the civil rights movement, it took about 200 leaders.  Out of 280,000,000 people.  So 1 in 1,400,000.

Don't forget to count all the non leaders in the street who were getting beaten and firehosed.

Okay, I give up, yeah all those people would have spontaneously shown up with no leadership, because that's how humans operate.  It's all hopelessness and failure, and we should both go clean our pee-stained dentures.

Fucking done here.  Carry on.

Quote
The psychology is pretty well known.  Primate behavior changes as you add monkeys, and the big changes happen (for whatever reason) in multiples of 8.

I read that somewhere, can't remember where though. Came to the same conclusion anyway. High school is a great place to observe such behavior.

QuoteI admire your efforts.

Thanks.  :)

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:19:24 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 09:11:04 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:08:30 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 09:05:59 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:04:02 PM
I thought we were talking about individuals.

We are. How many individuals would be required to effectively change things?

Depends.  In the civil rights movement, it took about 200 leaders.  Out of 280,000,000 people.  So 1 in 1,400,000.

Don't forget to count all the non leaders in the street who were getting beaten and firehosed.

Okay, I give up, yeah all those people would have spontaneously shown up with no leadership, because that's how humans operate.  It's all hopelessness and failure, and we should both go clean our pee-stained dentures.

Why are you upset? Isn't banging ideas around they way they come to life?

QuoteDon't forget to count all the non leaders in the street who were getting beaten and firehosed.

Quote
Okay, I give up, yeah all those people would have spontaneously shown up with no leadership, because that's how humans operate.  It's all hopelessness and failure, and we should both go clean our pee-stained dentures.

It's a two way deal. A leader needs people to help him get what needs done done, while the people need a leader to get them organized and motivated.

Quote from: Cramulus on July 20, 2010, 09:18:47 PM
I think there is hope in trying to teach people how to operate their brains.

we have a lizard, an early mammal, and a rational human inside each of us, wrestling for control.

It took millions of years for us to develop this great brain. For most of our evolutionary history, we were stuck in the lower brains, our actions predestined by the laws of survival, territory, aggression, sexual reproduction. Now we have a cerebral cortex, and we can ignore or sublimate our reptilian urges. We're just not very good at it.

People like Tim Leary and Carl Sagan thought that there was a lot of hope contained there! We spent millions of years living like savages, killing each other with sticks and rocks, and then suddenly we have cities, writing, and the average person is not spending all day struggling for survival. The individual can be taught to orient himself on something bigger and cooler than the immediate tribe. The individual can learn to examine his own intelligence and refine it. If there is hope for our race, it comes with the idea that we can stop acting like lizards.

Is that possible (or desirable) to totally turn off the lower brains? fuck no! But you can learn to recognize when the lizard and monkey are sitting in the driver's seat and toss them out if they're driving recklessly. Maybe if we can get the economy and government to stop sending DANGER messages, people will be able to shake it off.

ah, wishful thinking

Excellent post. Sent my brain spinning that maybe the arts is a great tool for this idea.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 20, 2010, 09:23:42 PM

QuoteDon't forget to count all the non leaders in the street who were getting beaten and firehosed.

Quote
Okay, I give up, yeah all those people would have spontaneously shown up with no leadership, because that's how humans operate.  It's all hopelessness and failure, and we should both go clean our pee-stained dentures.

It's a two way deal. A leader needs people to help him get what needs done done, while the people need a leader to get them organized and motivated.

WHICH CATAGORY OF PERSON IS OPERATING AS AN INDIVIDUAL?

OH, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. 

BUT BOTH OF YOU KNEW THAT ALREADY.

Dok,
Off to take a pill, and forget that this fucking conversation ever took place.  Goddammit.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:26:08 PM

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 20, 2010, 09:23:42 PM

QuoteDon't forget to count all the non leaders in the street who were getting beaten and firehosed.

Quote
Okay, I give up, yeah all those people would have spontaneously shown up with no leadership, because that's how humans operate.  It's all hopelessness and failure, and we should both go clean our pee-stained dentures.

It's a two way deal. A leader needs people to help him get what needs done done, while the people need a leader to get them organized and motivated.

WHICH CATAGORY OF PERSON IS OPERATING AS AN INDIVIDUAL?

OH, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE. 

BUT BOTH OF YOU KNEW THAT ALREADY.

Dok,
Off to take a pill, and forget that this fucking conversation ever took place.  Goddammit.

Both. The leaders who had a direction and the non leaders who used their brain to recognize a worthwhile idea and cause and to follow the leaders.

QuoteWHICH CATAGORY OF PERSON IS OPERATING AS AN INDIVIDUAL?

OH, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.

BUT BOTH OF YOU KNEW THAT ALREADY.

Dok,
Off to take a pill, and forget that this fucking conversation ever took place.  Goddammit.

Okay. Sorry to have pissed you off. No need to give up the conversation though.

QuoteBoth. The leaders who had a direction and the non leaders who used their brain to recognize a worthwhile idea and cause and to follow the leaders.

This.

Right.  Individualism is a meaningless concept, then.

QuoteRight.  Individualism is a meaningless concept, then.

No it isn't. You said it yourself that people probably wouldn't band together and risk getting the hell kicked out them without a leader to inspire them to. The cause become an important enough goal for them to risk themselves for it, because the leader gave them a reason. They still chose to join up, and they chose to put themselves in harms way. Without the leader, they probably wouldn't have a united front or goal.

As for the leader, well if he tried to change things in an obvious manner by himself, he'd probably be murdered as soon as he started making waves.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 20, 2010, 09:59:12 PM

QuoteRight.  Individualism is a meaningless concept, then.

No it isn't. You said it yourself that people probably wouldn't band together and risk getting the hell kicked out them without a leader to inspire them to.

And I was told that the gestalt that formed around him was actually individualism.  If that's the case, than any activity from anyone, ever is "individualism", even in groups.

I concede.  The individual is powerless, because the term is a meaningless word for a grab-bag of different behaviors that have nothing to do with it, and therefore we just spin as little tiny cogs in a great big machine, until we break and are replaced.

It's all so clear, now.  We've been wasting time here for 8 years, when we could have been more productive at work.

QuoteAnd I was told that the gestalt that formed around him was actually individualism.  If that's the case, than any activity from anyone, ever is "individualism", even in groups.

I concede.  The individual is powerless, because the term is a meaningless word for a grab-bag of different behaviors that have nothing to do with it, and therefore we just spin as little tiny cogs in a great big machine, until we break and are replaced.

Okay, then. Explain how a person is able to cause widespread change without some help and without an individual or group of individuals becoming leaders, even if in only a symbolic sense. Be my guest, cause I could do this shit own my own, I would.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 20, 2010, 10:07:51 PM

QuoteAnd I was told that the gestalt that formed around him was actually individualism.  If that's the case, than any activity from anyone, ever is "individualism", even in groups.

I concede.  The individual is powerless, because the term is a meaningless word for a grab-bag of different behaviors that have nothing to do with it, and therefore we just spin as little tiny cogs in a great big machine, until we break and are replaced.

Okay, then. Explain how a person is able to cause widespread change without some help and without an individual or group of individuals becoming leaders, even if in only a symbolic sense. Be my guest, cause I could do this shit own my own, I would.

PRETTY SURE THAT WAS MY FUCKING ARGUMENT.

The leaders are acting as alphas, or individuals in this case.  The followers are acting as a group.  Nobody here seems to be able to accept that, because it's not "correct" to state that there are some times when acting as a group is a good thing.

Quote
PRETTY SURE THAT WAS MY FUCKING ARGUMENT.

The leaders are acting as alphas, or individuals in this case.  The followers are acting as a group.  Nobody here seems to be able to accept that, because it's not "correct" to state that there are some times when acting as a group is a good thing.

Okay. Wait a second. Have we been arguing with each other for the same idea? Cause I swear to god, what you just said is what I've been arguing for.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 20, 2010, 10:16:54 PM

Quote
PRETTY SURE THAT WAS MY FUCKING ARGUMENT.

The leaders are acting as alphas, or individuals in this case.  The followers are acting as a group.  Nobody here seems to be able to accept that, because it's not "correct" to state that there are some times when acting as a group is a good thing.

Okay. Wait a second. Have we been arguing with each other for the same idea? Cause I swear to god, what you just said is what I've been arguing for.

TOO LATE.  THE "INDIVIDUAL" IS A WORTHLESS DRONE IN A VAST HIVE.

Since you can't be bothered to read my posts, and Charley is arguing just for the sake of arguing, I'm done posting constructively.

Fine. Whatever floats your boat, Dok. If you want to, get pissed off over a misunderstanding. I just posted this to get some feedback and maybe stir up some conversation, not to start a war over minutiae.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 20, 2010, 10:24:21 PM
Fine. Whatever floats your boat, Dok. If you want to, get pissed off over a misunderstanding. I just posted this to get some feedback and maybe stir up some conversation, not to start a war over minutiae.

I can't help it.  Groupthink™ controls my every move.

Forgot to put a  :lulz: there.

Dammit Dok.

A leader without followers is just a person walking alone. Followers without a leader wander in all directions aimlessly. Can you not see the co-dependency here?

Do you think the Government would have passed civil rights without all the followers scaring the hell out of their re-election chances?

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 21, 2010, 12:29:18 AM
Dammit Dok.

A leader without followers is just a person walking alone. Followers without a leader wander in all directions aimlessly. Can you not see the co-dependency here?

Do you think the Government would have passed civil rights without all the followers scaring the hell out of their re-election chances?

So are you saying that individualism is impossible?

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 12:30:08 AM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 21, 2010, 12:29:18 AM
Dammit Dok.

A leader without followers is just a person walking alone. Followers without a leader wander in all directions aimlessly. Can you not see the co-dependency here?

Do you think the Government would have passed civil rights without all the followers scaring the hell out of their re-election chances?

So are you saying that individualism is impossible?

Certainly not. I am saying it wears many guises.

And to add to this a GROUP of like minded individuals has more influence than a single individual.

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 21, 2010, 12:30:56 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 12:30:08 AM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 21, 2010, 12:29:18 AM
Dammit Dok.

A leader without followers is just a person walking alone. Followers without a leader wander in all directions aimlessly. Can you not see the co-dependency here?

Do you think the Government would have passed civil rights without all the followers scaring the hell out of their re-election chances?

So are you saying that individualism is impossible?

Certainly not. I am saying it wears many guises.

So every human behavior is individualistic?

Because that's what the argument LOOKS like, given the example.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 12:35:36 AM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 21, 2010, 12:30:56 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 12:30:08 AM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 21, 2010, 12:29:18 AM
Dammit Dok.

A leader without followers is just a person walking alone. Followers without a leader wander in all directions aimlessly. Can you not see the co-dependency here?

Do you think the Government would have passed civil rights without all the followers scaring the hell out of their re-election chances?

So are you saying that individualism is impossible?

Certainly not. I am saying it wears many guises.

So every human behavior is individualistic?

Because that's what the argument LOOKS like, given the example.

Of course not, at times in our history many individuals have chosen to walk in the same direction, thereby forming a group. Every member of the group has individually opted to walk in that direction because of a visionary. I will not deny the Alpha syndrome, it is unavoidable as 95% of the people are followers.

I will maintain that a leader without followers can easily be dismissed.

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 21, 2010, 12:38:52 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 12:35:36 AM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 21, 2010, 12:30:56 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 12:30:08 AM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 21, 2010, 12:29:18 AM
Dammit Dok.

A leader without followers is just a person walking alone. Followers without a leader wander in all directions aimlessly. Can you not see the co-dependency here?

Do you think the Government would have passed civil rights without all the followers scaring the hell out of their re-election chances?

So are you saying that individualism is impossible?

Certainly not. I am saying it wears many guises.

So every human behavior is individualistic?

Because that's what the argument LOOKS like, given the example.

Of course not, at times in our history many individuals have chosen to walk in the same direction, thereby forming a group. Every member of the group has individually opted to walk in that direction because of a visionary. I will not deny the Alpha syndrome, it is unavoidable as 95% of the people are followers.

I will maintain that a leader without followers can easily be dismissed.

But...You just made two contradictory arguments.

I give up.  I'm not getting in a pissing contest over this, but I'm not going to argue semantics for their own sake, either.  See you in another thread.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 12:40:54 AM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 21, 2010, 12:38:52 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 12:35:36 AM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 21, 2010, 12:30:56 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 12:30:08 AM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 21, 2010, 12:29:18 AM
Dammit Dok.

A leader without followers is just a person walking alone. Followers without a leader wander in all directions aimlessly. Can you not see the co-dependency here?

Do you think the Government would have passed civil rights without all the followers scaring the hell out of their re-election chances?

So are you saying that individualism is impossible?

Certainly not. I am saying it wears many guises.

So every human behavior is individualistic?

Because that's what the argument LOOKS like, given the example.

Of course not, at times in our history many individuals have chosen to walk in the same direction, thereby forming a group. Every member of the group has individually opted to walk in that direction because of a visionary. I will not deny the Alpha syndrome, it is unavoidable as 95% of the people are followers.

I will maintain that a leader without followers can easily be dismissed.

But...You just made two contradictory arguments.

I give up.  I'm not getting in a pissing contest over this, but I'm not going to argue semantics for their own sake, either.  See you in another thread.

Fine. Also I don't see the contradiction.

A group of people is a unit.  An individual is a unit.  Saying "a group of individuals" vs. "a group" vs. "an individual" seems to be mixing domains, and it's confusing the hell out of me  :?

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 21, 2010, 12:49:57 AM

A group of people is a unit.  An individual is a unit.  Saying "a group of individuals" vs. "a group" vs. "an individual" seems to be mixing domains, and it's confusing the hell out of me  :?

I give up. Simply trying to put my opinion across I seem to have pissed off a friend. This isn't worth that.

Aw c'mon, don't take it personally, this is PD.com - every time we try to have a fight a discussion breaks out.

QuoteAw c'mon, don't take it personally, this is PD.com - every time we try to have a fight a discussion breaks out.

It's just annoying when the fight causes the conversation to go around in circles.

Quote from: Cramulus on July 20, 2010, 07:37:50 PM
We can't change culture - it's true. And to do so would be somewhat orwellian. But we can change individuals, and that's where culture comes from.

I'm going to look at this through the lens of broadcast vs. peer-to-peer communication, because it seems that in a broadcast communication environment, it's easier to change a culture to effect change on individuals.  It's a simple matter of putting out a few public service commercials and commissioning runs of "I Love Lucy", and "Leave it to Beaver" because those archetypes will seep into the consciousness of millions, and few of them will have any way to contradict it.  The majority will feel happier and compliant without knowing why.

But in a p2p communication environment, when anybody can easily see what everybody else is getting up to then you have much less lee-way in your myth-building.  You have less control over the direction a culture takes, but can more easily target individuals.  Instead of actors, there are real people as leaders in sub-cultures.  Even if some of those are plants or otherwise controlled  :tinfoilhat:  then I still don't see how anyone could control a culture whether you're just some kid or a shadowy sinister organisation of elite mindbenders.

I think that's awesome.

I want to go back to the idea of increasing the ability of culture-jamming and art to affect a culture.  Because what if we found a way to use these tools much more effectively towards our individual goals, and were able to distribute both the concept and the knowledge to a massive audience - problem solved?

I don't think so - it seems to me that there would be a directionless cacophony of creativity and energy.  Without collaboration between those individuals for the goals they share, how would anything bigger get accomplished.  I guess I'll stop there because I seem to be heading towards ground I've trodden before, but I'd be curious to see someone elses take on that problem.

QuoteI want to go back to the idea of increasing the ability of culture-jamming and art to affect a culture.

Awesome.

I've been planning to try and organize a massive, focused strike on a major city using culture jamming groups. Just to see if they can work together, and whether the movement is capable of having an effect.

I think the answer is "yes", but the questions are "to what end" and "how".  Perhaps the latter will follow from the former?

QuoteI think the answer is "yes", but the questions are "to what end" and "how".  Perhaps the latter will follow from the former?

Pretty much. Once I'm sure I can make use of the culture jamming movement, then I'll start making plans on how to use it.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 21, 2010, 01:45:53 AM
I don't think so - it seems to me that there would be a directionless cacophony of creativity and energy.

This sounds desirable enough to me. I'd love to be in a city when that went off.
Not that it would really change anything, but it would be fun.

QuoteThis sounds desirable enough to me. I'd love to be in a city when that went off.
Not that it would really change anything, but it would be fun.

Good point. So even if they prove to not be effective, it'll still be fun as hell.  :D

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 21, 2010, 02:47:53 AM

QuoteThis sounds desirable enough to me. I'd love to be in a city when that went off.
Not that it would really change anything, but it would be fun.

Good point. So even if they prove to not be effective, it'll still be fun as hell.  :D

It's all about having a good time. If you can still have a good time, that proves that the world hasn't gone completely to shit. The mere existence of such an event would be a demonstration of free will, like the FUCKING ORANGE EATING CONTEST. There's no reason for it to happen, therefore it is necessary.

QuoteIt's all about having a good time. If you can still have a good time, that proves that the world hasn't gone completely to shit. The mere existence of such an event would be a demonstration of free will, like the FUCKING ORANGE EATING CONTEST. There's no reason for it to happen, therefore it is necessary.

Damn right. Also, I liked that last sentence. Mind if I use it for something?

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 21, 2010, 05:23:42 AM

QuoteIt's all about having a good time. If you can still have a good time, that proves that the world hasn't gone completely to shit. The mere existence of such an event would be a demonstration of free will, like the FUCKING ORANGE EATING CONTEST. There's no reason for it to happen, therefore it is necessary.

Damn right. Also, I liked that last sentence. Mind if I use it for something?

Go ahead.

I had to think more on the culture jammer thing.

The situationists were the predecessors to the culture jammers,  and they definitely understood that you can't just tell people to quit participating in their culture. You have to provide an alternative, a new culture for them to participate in instead. They had a few techniques they used to start building a new france on top of the old france.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography - the idea that you can influence the city's culture by playing with its geography. Project POSTERGASM is a part of this. I thought, let's take the stuff you expect to see and replace it with a joke you didn't expect to see. The people walking around in this area will be influenced by humor and fun, playfully inserted where you'd expect an ad or a missing cat poster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dérive - the Derive is the act of wandering around, drifting from place to place, getting into adventures. In order to do it, you can't be in the mindset of "I'm on an errand" or "I'm on my way to the local coffee shop to read for 30 minutes." If you embrace the unexpected, and are willing to take chances, you'll end up in some really cool situations.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:08:30 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 09:05:59 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:04:02 PM
I thought we were talking about individuals.

We are. How many individuals would be required to effectively change things?

Depends.  In the civil rights movement, it took about 200 leaders.  Out of 280,000,000 people.  So 1 in 1,400,000.

I honestly believe this is one of the most optimistic things I've heard in the past month.  It makes me incredibly hopeful and happy.  200?  That's actually achievable.  Incredibly difficult, but achievable.

I read an interview in Wired (?) a few months back, with the founder of wikipedia. They were talking about how wiki projects have become a very popular way of crowdsourcing large amounts of effort/data. Ever since wikipedia started, wiki projects have been popping up every day.

The interviewer asked him what the difference is between a successful wiki project and a failing one. The guy said it pretty much boiled down to having five people supporting the project at the same time. If you have five people, and they're all working on different angles, they can change the world.

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography - the idea that you can influence the city's culture by playing with its geography. Project POSTERGASM is a part of this. I thought, let's take the stuff you expect to see and replace it with a joke you didn't expect to see. The people walking around in this area will be influenced by humor and fun, playfully inserted where you'd expect an ad or a missing cat poster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dérive - the Derive is the act of wandering around, drifting from place to place, getting into adventures. In order to do it, you can't be in the mindset of "I'm on an errand" or "I'm on my way to the local coffee shop to read for 30 minutes." If you embrace the unexpected, and are willing to take chances, you'll end up in some really cool situations.

Thanks Cram. I think I can use these for my work. Well, psychogeography for my work. I'll use the Derive for my own amusement.  :)

psychogeography in current events: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd_9oGq3K3o

 :mittens:

Sounds lame but fuck it - it was a tears in the eyes moment there.  I dunno, it feels like we were built to have fun and enjoy ourselves with other people and to experience simple joys in spontaneous ways.  And although this is pre-planned spontaneity, there's a lesson there which is not insignificant.  To me it feels nothing less than we're learning to recapture a part of our humanity.  That's awesome in ways I am inadequate to express.

yeah! So many people thought they were in for a regular train ride. They'd get on, they'd get off, they probably would never think of those moments again. Instead, the mundane became a site for the absurd. Everybody that rode the train that day told their friends about something magical they never would have expected.

I was in on Improv Everywhere's No Pants Subway Ride in 2007. After the cops shut it down, everybody was riding the same train back back to the meeting point. And (among other songs) this round of "99 pairs of pants on the wall" broke out. And we sung all 99 verses!

Random people got on the train and experienced this amazing group energy. and you know what? they joined in! random old ladies were clapping and singing along with us, banging on the ceiling with their fists when it got down to 5 pairs of pants left... and then when we hit zero, the whole train exploded, rocking back and forth with people freaking out, laughing, high fiving, hugging each other... It wasn't just our moment, something created and enjoyed by this one small luntaic faction, we transmitted the insane joy, the spirit of spontaneous play, to everybody in the vicinity. I've never seen anything like it.

Quotepsychogeography in current events: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd_9oGq3K3o

This made my day. Thanks Cram.

There's no such thing as "individuals". Individual humans are only partly self-aware refractions of their culture, social and media environment, and DNA programming. So to say "individual humans are good but groups are bad" is not only superstitious nonsense - a verbal sacrifice to the unquestionable God of the Individualist Ego - but is completely bass-ackwards. The group makes the individual. An individual divorced from any group goes nuckin' futs - serial killer, Unabomber, sociopath, dictator.

Saying "social change must start from the individual" is precisely as silly as "changes in the tides must start with the individual water droplet". As above, so below: social changes is always and everywhere the same thing as individual change. One just does not happen without the other.

Our DNA predisposes some people to be more angry, others more fat, and yet others to be fat and angry.  But consciousness moves faster than DNA can evolve.  So while our conscious choices are influenced by our genes, we are not completely beholden to them.  We can choose to manage our anger, and we can choose to eat better and exercise. The relationship an Individual has to a Group works in a similar way.  Except now there is a moving target.  The Group will change its influences upon an Individual in response to the Individuals actions, and will - with limited consciousness - try to exert its influence. The limited consciousness part is critical.  For while an Individual can outwit part of the Group - if only for some of the time - that Individual will gulp freedom.  There is no freedom from a lifetime of Group saturation.  There is no original thought which can't trace its dirty roots back through a multitude of other minds.  But there are a few stolen moments we can use to plot against the Group.  To trick its greasy media channels to display our messages designed to weaken its grip on our minds.  One postered lamppost at a time. Left to its own devises, the Group will no longer be of limited consciousness.  The Group will be able to outwit the Individual at every turn.  This may be inevitable.  Our fevered struggle may just be slowing down the hands of the clock. Our?  Us?  The Group of Individuals fighting the Group of Non-Individuals. Every Group promises Freedom.  Every Group lies.

(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/DSCF0024.jpg)

Kinda liked that.  :)

I am sometimes given to consider whether individuality is a bad idea, a poor premise for a better world.  I am sometimes given to think that things would be so nice if conformity was immaculate, and everybody was on the same page.  Sometimes I think about my state of mind when these thoughts occur to me, and sometimes I glimpse the horror of having everybody Just Be Friends.

Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on July 27, 2010, 03:09:56 AM
An individual divorced from any group goes nuckin' futs - serial killer, Unabomber, sociopath, dictator.

And religious hermits.  I never trusted those bastards, sniggering at the rest of us on their wheels set on poles, in the desert.

Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on July 21, 2010, 02:29:39 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:08:30 PM

Quote from: Charley Brown on July 20, 2010, 09:05:59 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 20, 2010, 09:04:02 PM
I thought we were talking about individuals.

We are. How many individuals would be required to effectively change things?

Depends.  In the civil rights movement, it took about 200 leaders.  Out of 280,000,000 people.  So 1 in 1,400,000.

I honestly believe this is one of the most optimistic things I've heard in the past month.  It makes me incredibly hopeful and happy.  200?  That's actually achievable.  Incredibly difficult, but achievable.

Sorry, it seems you need 280,000,000, since all followers are actually leaders and/or individualists.

Sometimes I hate this fucking place.

Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on July 27, 2010, 03:09:56 AM
There's no such thing as "individuals". Individual humans are only partly self-aware refractions of their culture, social and media environment, and DNA programming.

Go kill yourself, then.

QuoteThere's no such thing as "individuals". Individual humans are only partly self-aware refractions of their culture, social and media environment, and DNA programming. So to say "individual humans are good but groups are bad" is not only superstitious nonsense - a verbal sacrifice to the unquestionable God of the Individualist Ego - but is completely bass-ackwards. The group makes the individual. An individual divorced from any group goes nuckin' futs - serial killer, Unabomber, sociopath, dictator.

Wow. So from what this guy is saying, we aren't free willed, self aware beings, but rather drones reliant upon a group for their identity. Let me know if I interpreted that wrong, but that is such a load of bullshit. History is full of individuals who chose to act in a way that the greater group did not approve of. Martin Luther wrote his 95 theses and started the Reformation because he believed the Church, his group at the time, to be corrupt. Ghandi worked to heal the rift between Hindus and Muslims in India, sometimes in ways that angered the greater group. He ended up dying because of these efforts.

Those two are just the first ones to come to mind, but give me some time to think and research and I could give many more examples. People are not made by their genes or by their culture. They are influenced by it yes, but people can, and historically have, disregarded this influence to make decisions. People are made by their choices.

 :|

I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 01:51:56 AM
:|

I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

Oh, fuck off.

Dok,
Has had it.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:02:27 AM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 01:51:56 AM
:|

I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

Oh, fuck off.

Dok,
Has had it.

boffus.

My point exactly?

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:06:36 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:02:27 AM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 01:51:56 AM
:|

I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

Oh, fuck off.

Dok,
Has had it.

boffus.

Frankly, I'm offended that CU expected me to take a hive culture comment seriously.

He is on some kind of '60's trip.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:08:12 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:06:36 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:02:27 AM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 01:51:56 AM
:|

I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

Oh, fuck off.

Dok,
Has had it.

boffus.

Frankly, I'm offended that CU expected me to take a hive culture comment seriously.

Besides serious posts on this site have gone to shit.

Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on July 27, 2010, 03:09:56 AM
There's no such thing as "individuals". Individual humans are only partly self-aware refractions of their culture, social and media environment, and DNA programming.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:10:20 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:08:12 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:06:36 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:02:27 AM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 01:51:56 AM
:|

I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

Oh, fuck off.

Dok,
Has had it.

boffus.

Frankly, I'm offended that CU expected me to take a hive culture comment seriously.

Besides serious posts on this site have gone to shit.

I dunno.  When someone isn't babbling about his goddamn obsession on every third thread, you can actually have a decent conversation here.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:11:28 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:10:20 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:08:12 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:06:36 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:02:27 AM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 01:51:56 AM
:|

I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

Oh, fuck off.

Dok,
Has had it.

boffus.

Frankly, I'm offended that CU expected me to take a hive culture comment seriously.

Besides serious posts on this site have gone to shit.

I dunno.  When someone isn't babbling about his goddamn obsession on every third thread, you can actually have a decent conversation here.

Mostly what I see is fucking emo posts or some other fucking nonsense lately.

Quote
I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

I was saying what I thought. If CU Doloras thinks my counter argument was bullshit, then I'd hope that she would say so. I was being honest about my opinion, a sign that I respect her right to have an opinion, even if I think its bullshit. She can say or think whatever she wants to, just as I am allowed to respond however I want to.

If she's offended then she's free to say so, and I'll take that into account from then on. No big deal, mate.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 28, 2010, 02:15:59 AM

Quote
I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

I was saying what I thought. If CU thinks my counter argument was bullshit, then I'd hope that she would say so. I was being honest about my opinion, a sign that I respect her right to have an opinion, even if I think its bullshit. She can say or think whatever she wants to, just as I am allowed to respond however I want to.

If she's offended then she's free to say so, and I'll take that into account from then on. No big deal, mate.

Your post was spot on, don't back down one inch.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:12:49 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:11:28 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:10:20 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:08:12 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:06:36 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:02:27 AM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 01:51:56 AM
:|

I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

Oh, fuck off.

Dok,
Has had it.

boffus.

Frankly, I'm offended that CU expected me to take a hive culture comment seriously.

Besides serious posts on this site have gone to shit.

I dunno.  When someone isn't babbling about his goddamn obsession on every third thread, you can actually have a decent conversation here.

Mostly what I see is fucking emo posts or some other fucking nonsense lately.

Not seeing it.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 28, 2010, 02:15:59 AM

Quote
I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

I was saying what I thought. If CU thinks my counter argument was bullshit, then I'd hope that she would say so. I was being honest about my opinion, a sign that I respect her right to have an opinion, even if I think its bullshit. She can say or think whatever she wants to, just as I am allowed to respond however I want to.

If she's offended then she's free to say so, and I'll take that into account from then on. No big deal, mate.

NO NO SHE'S A DELICATE FLOWER WE HAVE TO WEAR KID GLOVES CAN'T YOU SEE?

QuoteYour post was spot on, don't back down one inch.

Not planning to. I'm allowed to speak my mind, just as Doloras is. My response was honest. Nuff said.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:18:58 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:12:49 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:11:28 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:10:20 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:08:12 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:06:36 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:02:27 AM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 01:51:56 AM
:|

I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

Oh, fuck off.

Dok,
Has had it.

boffus.

Frankly, I'm offended that CU expected me to take a hive culture comment seriously.

Besides serious posts on this site have gone to shit.

I dunno.  When someone isn't babbling about his goddamn obsession on every third thread, you can actually have a decent conversation here.

Mostly what I see is fucking emo posts or some other fucking nonsense lately.

Not seeing it.

Seriously? Guess it's just me then.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:21:20 AM

Seriously? Guess it's just me then.

It's a Kansas thing.  It's finally seeped into your drinking water.

Next you'll be hollering about those meddling kids.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:25:25 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:21:20 AM

Seriously? Guess it's just me then.

It's a Kansas thing.  It's finally seeped into your drinking water.

Next you'll be hollering about those meddling kids.

Too fucking late.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 28, 2010, 02:20:21 AM

QuoteYour post was spot on, don't back down one inch.

Not planning to. I'm allowed to speak my mind, just as Doloras is. My response was honest. Nuff said.

I wasn't impugning your honesty, just your civility.  Besides, my comment was mostly aimed at Dok's "go kill yourself" remark, which is why he's blowing up now - because it's much easier to do that, than to back down and admit that you went OTT.  Especially when he's got a built-in cheerleadering squad - Dok Brown, looking at you.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 02:42:15 AM

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 28, 2010, 02:20:21 AM

QuoteYour post was spot on, don't back down one inch.

Not planning to. I'm allowed to speak my mind, just as Doloras is. My response was honest. Nuff said.

I wasn't impugning your honesty, just your civility.  Besides, my comment was mostly aimed at Dok's "go kill yourself" remark, which is why he's blowing up now - because it's much easier to do that, than to back down and admit that you went OTT.  Especially when he's got a built-in cheerleadering squad - Dok Brown, looking at you.

You are a dick. I am barely tolerated on this fucking site you illerate baby.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:44:40 AM
You are a dick. I am barely tolerated on this fucking site you illerate baby.

:lulz:  Then we have that in common I guess.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 02:49:07 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:44:40 AM
You are a dick. I am barely tolerated on this fucking site you illerate baby.

:lulz:  Then we have that in common I guess.

Fuck you. Asswipe.

QuoteI wasn't impugning your honesty, just your civility.

Okay, fair enough. Personally, I value honesty over civility. Each to their own, I guess.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:49:48 AM
Fuck you. Asswipe.

I know you are, but what am I?

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 03:00:27 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 02:49:48 AM
Fuck you. Asswipe.

I know you are, but what am I?

Seriously? That is your retort? Go home kid.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 02:42:15 AM

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 28, 2010, 02:20:21 AM

QuoteYour post was spot on, don't back down one inch.

Not planning to. I'm allowed to speak my mind, just as Doloras is. My response was honest. Nuff said.

I wasn't impugning your honesty, just your civility.  Besides, my comment was mostly aimed at Dok's "go kill yourself" remark, which is why he's blowing up now - because it's much easier to do that, than to back down and admit that you went OTT.  Especially when he's got a built-in cheerleadering squad - Dok Brown, looking at you.

Hey, go fuck yourself.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:07:11 AM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 02:42:15 AM

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 28, 2010, 02:20:21 AM

QuoteYour post was spot on, don't back down one inch.

Not planning to. I'm allowed to speak my mind, just as Doloras is. My response was honest. Nuff said.

I wasn't impugning your honesty, just your civility.  Besides, my comment was mostly aimed at Dok's "go kill yourself" remark, which is why he's blowing up now - because it's much easier to do that, than to back down and admit that you went OTT.  Especially when he's got a built-in cheerleadering squad - Dok Brown, looking at you.

Hey, go fuck yourself.

He is an immature little child Dok.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:04:10 AM
Seriously? That is your retort? Go home kid.

I am rubber, you are glue.

(if you're going to start acting like a minor-league playground bully, don't be surprised when that's the level of insult you receive)

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:07:11 AM
Hey, go fuck yourself.

No?

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 03:08:49 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:04:10 AM
Seriously? That is your retort? Go home kid.

I am rubber, you are glue.

(if you're going to start acting like a minor-league playground bully, don't be surprised when that's the level of insult you receive)

GTFO

No, you.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 03:10:37 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:07:11 AM
Hey, go fuck yourself.

No?

Yeah.

Or maybe I should just start referring to anyone who happens to agree with you as a cheerleading squad?

Go choke on a dick.

So, I banged my bad knee against a glass coffee able.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:12:34 AM
So, I banged my bad knee against a glass coffee able.

Yeah?

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:14:03 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:12:34 AM
So, I banged my bad knee against a glass coffee able.

Yeah?

Hurt like a bitch and swelled up like a grapefruit.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:11:58 AM
Or maybe I should just start referring to anyone who happens to agree with you as a cheerleading squad?

Maybe you should if time after time, that person only chimes in with a "me too" once the first punch has been thrown.  I noticed.  I decided not to put up with it silently any more.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:15:12 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:14:03 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:12:34 AM
So, I banged my bad knee against a glass coffee able.

Yeah?

Hurt like a bitch and swelled up like a grapefruit.

Oh...Sorry to hear that.  I was waiting for a punchline.

I've been hanging around RWHN too much.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 03:16:08 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:11:58 AM
Or maybe I should just start referring to anyone who happens to agree with you as a cheerleading squad?

Maybe you should if time after time, that person only chimes in with a "me too" once the first punch has been thrown.  I noticed.  I decided not to put up with it silently any more.

Yeah, that's nice.  But this thread is now about grapefruit and coffee tables, kid.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:16:18 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:15:12 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:14:03 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:12:34 AM
So, I banged my bad knee against a glass coffee able.

Yeah?

Hurt like a bitch and swelled up like a grapefruit.

Oh...Sorry to hear that.  I was waiting for a punchline.

I've been hanging around RWHN too much.

No Dok, the real deal. Dammit

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:17:24 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:16:18 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:15:12 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:14:03 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:12:34 AM
So, I banged my bad knee against a glass coffee able.

Yeah?

Hurt like a bitch and swelled up like a grapefruit.

Oh...Sorry to hear that.  I was waiting for a punchline.

I've been hanging around RWHN too much.

No Dok, the real deal. Dammit

I'm just kind of surprised your knees are real, at your advanced age and all.

Dok,
Is really, really glad you're here, so I can make old people jokes, too.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:18:47 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:17:24 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:16:18 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:15:12 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:14:03 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:12:34 AM
So, I banged my bad knee against a glass coffee able.

Yeah?

Hurt like a bitch and swelled up like a grapefruit.

Oh...Sorry to hear that.  I was waiting for a punchline.

I've been hanging around RWHN too much.

No Dok, the real deal. Dammit

I'm just kind of surprised your knees are real, at your advanced age and all.

Dok,
Is really, really glad you're here, so I can make old people jokes, too.

Make them, I can take it.

Yeah, they are still real for now, but that can change.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:20:18 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:18:47 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:17:24 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:16:18 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:15:12 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:14:03 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:12:34 AM
So, I banged my bad knee against a glass coffee able.

Yeah?

Hurt like a bitch and swelled up like a grapefruit.

Oh...Sorry to hear that.  I was waiting for a punchline.

I've been hanging around RWHN too much.

No Dok, the real deal. Dammit

I'm just kind of surprised your knees are real, at your advanced age and all.

Dok,
Is really, really glad you're here, so I can make old people jokes, too.

Make them, I can take it.

Yeah, they are still real for now, but that can change.

I'm going to have mine replaced with alumina at the first possible excuse.

You can't trust the bastards.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:21:19 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:20:18 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:18:47 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:17:24 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:16:18 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:15:12 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 03:14:03 AM

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 03:12:34 AM
So, I banged my bad knee against a glass coffee able.

Yeah?

Hurt like a bitch and swelled up like a grapefruit.

Oh...Sorry to hear that.  I was waiting for a punchline.

I've been hanging around RWHN too much.

No Dok, the real deal. Dammit

I'm just kind of surprised your knees are real, at your advanced age and all.

Dok,
Is really, really glad you're here, so I can make old people jokes, too.

Make them, I can take it.

Yeah, they are still real for now, but that can change.

I'm going to have mine replaced with alumina at the first possible excuse.

You can't trust the bastards.

I agree, so am I.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 28, 2010, 02:52:44 AM

QuoteI wasn't impugning your honesty, just your civility.

Okay, fair enough. Personally, I value honesty over civility. Each to their own, I guess.

Can you honestly say that you would have been so quick to call out an idea as "bullshit" if it had come from Rog?  Or any other established regular, for that matter?  It's a lot easier to pick on an 8-post n00b, someone who doesn't have the respect of the group, which is why I raise the question.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 04:26:02 AM

Can you honestly say that you would have been so quick to call out an idea as "bullshit" if it had come from Rog? 

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Never speak to me again, okay?

I'll admit it, I'm slightly more receptive to messages that come from people who have proven their intelligence.  I don't see what's so controversial about that, unless he's saying that debates are popularity contests.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 04:28:00 AM
Never speak to me again, okay?

Whatever.  If you write something I feel like responding to, I will.  Like now - get over your inflated sense of self-importance.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 04:45:29 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 04:28:00 AM
Never speak to me again, okay?

Whatever.  If you write something I feel like responding to, I will.  Like now - get over your inflated sense of self-importance.

Okay, tried to be nice about it, Fictionpuss.  You're the one who's trying to set me up as some kind of cult leader...Presumably to hide the fact that you have no fucking argument whatsoever, and haven't done shit since your return but gush some mushyheaded bullshit you picked up on a website that would make Ron Paul blush.

So, yeah, shitforbrains, let's talk about an inflated sense of importance.  You come back here like some fucking wannabe returning prophet, trying to sell everyone the same bill of goods wrapped up differently from the rubes, and then you have the utter stupidity to support some fucking retarded shit about how individuals don't exist?  Because you're all butthurt that nobody bought your "E Democracy" bullshit?

Quote from: Sigmatic on July 28, 2010, 04:40:44 AM
I'll admit it, I'm slightly more receptive to messages that come from people who have proven their intelligence.  I don't see what's so controversial about that, unless he's saying that debates are popularity contests.

I'll admit it too, if I see a wall-of-text from a source I don't trust, I'll rarely invest the time to dig through it.  But if you respond to a post it's a different story - then I think you should take the time to understand what is being said.  The first pass through Doloras' piece raised some eyebrows - on the next pass it came off as a concept piece.  I riffed on that, and had a good time, reaching a similar but not identical conclusion.

For me it comes down to two things:  Content and context.  You can look at content without considering context (i.e. who said a thing, with what intent, under which circumstances) to decide whether the content stands up on its own in a vacuum, but in an actual social interaction you don't do that because you can't live in the world of decontextualized truth statements. 

That's a fair point.

So I guess my stance is no, I wouldn't be so quick to call BS on Roger.  There are good reasons for it that don't come down to fear or intellectual laziness.


ETA:  But that's corollary to the point that you used the fact that Charley agreed with Dok Howl against him, which is somewhat poor form, even in the lax debate conduct standards we have here.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 05:00:37 AM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 04:45:29 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 04:28:00 AM
Never speak to me again, okay?

Whatever.  If you write something I feel like responding to, I will.  Like now - get over your inflated sense of self-importance.

Okay, tried to be nice about it, Fictionpuss.

When?  You've been taking pot-shots at me for over a week now, ever since the E-Democracy thread started.

This was coming sooner or later, so don't pretend you didn't want or create it.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 05:00:37 AM
You're the one who's trying to set me up as some kind of cult leader...

Took me a while to understand what you meant by this.

No - I didn't suggest that Semaj would be afraid to call "bullshit" on you because you're a cult leader, but because you're a tinderbox of rage just ready to explode at the slightest perceived threat to your territory.  Mixed metaphors aside, this is exactly what happened ITT when I expressed dissatisfaction with your "Go kill yourself" response to a 8-post n00b, who wasn't causing any trouble at all.

But barely anyone will tell you what they really think to your face because if you've got any other choice, IT'S JUST NOT WORTH THE SHITSTORM which inevitably results.  Hence the "here's-what-i-thought-all-along" + flounce pattern which is so common.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 05:00:37 AM
Presumably to hide the fact that you have no fucking argument whatsoever, and haven't done shit since your return but gush some mushyheaded bullshit you picked up on a website that would make Ron Paul blush.

You personally dared me to provide detail to my thoughts regarding E-Democracy.  I called your bluff, which resulted in that thread of the same name.  I answered questions which people had until it became obvious that everybody still posting had already made up their minds.

Paint that as "my obsession" if you wish, but it was a choice of either providing the details being requested or being taunted with "DID NOT DELIVER" and other fun digs.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 05:00:37 AM
So, yeah, shitforbrains, let's talk about an inflated sense of importance.  You come back here like some fucking wannabe returning prophet,

No.  I'm attempting to hi-jack the doom-and-gloom narrative.  Or at least provide an alternative where possible.  Simply talking about what the future might hold does not a prophet make.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 05:00:37 AM
and then you have the utter stupidity to support some fucking retarded shit about how individuals don't exist?

It might have been fucking retarded shit, or it might have been how I interpreted it - as a conceptual piece working through a particular idea.  We'll probably never know what it was meant to be, because if I were Doloras, I don't think I could see a good reason to come back.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 05:00:37 AM
Because you're all butthurt that nobody bought your "E Democracy" bullshit?

Actually no.  I moved on.  I hadn't mentioned it or even posted on that thread in four days.

The only people butthurt by the E-Democracy thread were those who stomped in there, thought they saw an easy target, and utterly failed to convincingly pick it apart.  Hello.

Quote from: Sigmatic on July 28, 2010, 06:21:36 AM
ETA:  But that's corollary to the point that you used the fact that Charley agreed with Dok Howl against him, which is somewhat poor form, even in the lax debate conduct standards we have here.

It wasn't aimed at Dok Howl.  It was against Charley who, on about 5-6 occasions now has stayed out of the debate until Doc Howl lays the first blow, then he'll run in with a quick follow up attack.  It's the sort of thing you tend to notice when you're on the bottom of a dogpile.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:37:02 AM

Quote from: Sigmatic on July 28, 2010, 06:21:36 AM
ETA:  But that's corollary to the point that you used the fact that Charley agreed with Dok Howl against him, which is somewhat poor form, even in the lax debate conduct standards we have here.

It wasn't aimed at Dok Howl.  It was against Charley who, on about 5-6 occasions now has stayed out of the debate until Doc Howl lays the first blow, then he'll run in with a quick follow up attack.  It's the sort of thing you tend to notice when you're on the bottom of a dogpile.

Listen up shitbag. It is just possible that I waited until you said something stupid enough to feel the need to step on it? I am my own person, always have been and always will be.

I don't know what fog you are living in but you seriously need a breath of fresh air.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AM

When?  You've been taking pot-shots at me for over a week now, ever since the E-Democracy thread started.

This was coming sooner or later, so don't pretend you didn't want or create it.

Oh, okay.  Taking shots at "your" idea = personal attacks.  Sorry, I didn't realize you were a complete fanatic.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AM
No - I didn't suggest that Semaj would be afraid to call "bullshit" on you because you're a cult leader, but because you're a tinderbox of rage just ready to explode at the slightest perceived threat to your territory. 

Oh, yeah.

1.  Dr Semaj is undoubtably terrified that I will reach through his monitor and choke him out.   :lulz:

2.  I've had plenty of debates here without raging out.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AM
Mixed metaphors aside, this is exactly what happened ITT when I expressed dissatisfaction with your "Go kill yourself" response to a 8-post n00b, who wasn't causing any trouble at all.

The insistence that individuals don't exist is both ridiculous and cowardly.  The answer I handed her is the answer she deserved for that statement.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AM
But barely anyone will tell you what they really think to your face because if you've got any other choice, IT'S JUST NOT WORTH THE SHITSTORM which inevitably results. 

Nonsense.  Just because you're a chickenshit doesn't mean everyone else is.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AMYou personally dared me to provide detail to my thoughts regarding E-Democracy.  I called your bluff, which resulted in that thread of the same name.  I answered questions which people had until it became obvious that everybody still posting had already made up their minds.

How many threads?   :lulz:

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AMNo.  I'm attempting to hi-jack the doom-and-gloom narrative. 

I keep forgetting you're stupid.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AMIt might have been fucking retarded shit, or it might have been how I interpreted it - as a conceptual piece working through a particular idea.  We'll probably never know what it was meant to be, because if I were Doloras, I don't think I could see a good reason to come back.

You think she's as gutless as you?  Possibly.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AMThe only people butthurt by the E-Democracy thread were those who stomped in there, thought they saw an easy target, and utterly failed to convincingly pick it apart.  Hello.

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

You spun like a fucking ballerina.

Dolores checks in here every now and then, and I probably expects a degree of resistance. Dolores doesn't check in very frequently, and probably won't see this for a few weeks.  :p

For those of you who aren't familiar, Dolores writes a fascinating blog called Chaos Marxism (http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com) which blends marxism, discordia, and the black iron prison.

I think this entry (http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com/2009/03/more-on-identity.html) elaborates on the previous point about identity, for anybody that's genuinely curious.

Quote from: Cramulus on July 28, 2010, 02:51:31 PM
Dolores checks in here every now and then, and I probably expects a degree of resistance. Dolores doesn't check in very frequently, and probably won't see this for a few weeks.  :p

For those of you who aren't familiar, Dolores writes a fascinating blog called Chaos Marxism (http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com) which blends marxism, discordia, and the black iron prison.

I think this entry (http://chaosmarxism.blogspot.com/2009/03/more-on-identity.html) elaborates on the previous point about identity, for anybody that's genuinely curious.

I'll have to check that out.  Not wild about Marxism, for the same reason I didn't think much of her post, but I'll at least give it a read.

It's a pretty wild point of view. I enjoy the motion to kill the ego and defeat the self, it helps me detach from bullshit ego games. I'm not crazy about Marxism either, but as a pragmatist I can definitely find some useful gems in chaos marxism.

brings this to mind:

Chapter 61
A successful cabal is like a dust cloud,
arriving from nowhere,
ungraspable,
and fading into nothingness.
The tallest blade of grass gets cut,
while the crab grass creeps unharmed.
Keep your head down.
Keep your fucking mouth shut.

Thus by concentrating on goals
without playing ego games,
much can be accomplished.
If all you want to do
is brag about how cool you are,
you might want learn to play the guitar, instead.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:37:02 AM

Quote from: Sigmatic on July 28, 2010, 06:21:36 AM
ETA:  But that's corollary to the point that you used the fact that Charley agreed with Dok Howl against him, which is somewhat poor form, even in the lax debate conduct standards we have here.

It wasn't aimed at Dok Howl.  It was against Charley who, on about 5-6 occasions now has stayed out of the debate until Doc Howl lays the first blow, then he'll run in with a quick follow up attack.  It's the sort of thing you tend to notice when you're on the bottom of a dogpile.

I'm awake now asshole and I will elaborate.

You claim in the E thread you countered all questions when you never did.

You reminded me of a little bitty dog barking his fool head while pretending to attack and nip at ankles without ever managing to take a bite. Just a lot of annoying barking while increasing the urge to give it a good kick.

And gods know Dok and I have never gotten into it. See, we know we are stubborn old men and an argument between us could go on for years without either of us conceding an inch, so we have the good sense to just drop it before the world burns.

So take your fucking cult leader yapping and go out in the yard with it puppy.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:50:16 PM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AM

When?  You've been taking pot-shots at me for over a week now, ever since the E-Democracy thread started.

This was coming sooner or later, so don't pretend you didn't want or create it.

Oh, okay.  Taking shots at "your" idea = personal attacks.  Sorry, I didn't realize you were a complete fanatic.

That's not what I'm talking about and you know it.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:50:16 PM
2.  I've had plenty of debates here without raging out.

So why did you decide to pick a fight with me last night?

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:50:16 PM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AM
Mixed metaphors aside, this is exactly what happened ITT when I expressed dissatisfaction with your "Go kill yourself" response to a 8-post n00b, who wasn't causing any trouble at all.

The insistence that individuals don't exist is both ridiculous and cowardly.  The answer I handed her is the answer she deserved for that statement.

And because being civil and respectful to someone whose reasoning you perhaps don't comprehend, in an effort to discover exactly where they are coming from, is way too much trouble for someone like you.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:50:16 PM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AMYou personally dared me to provide detail to my thoughts regarding E-Democracy.  I called your bluff, which resulted in that thread of the same name.  I answered questions which people had until it became obvious that everybody still posting had already made up their minds.

How many threads?   :lulz:

One thread.

Since creating the E-Democracy thread, I didn't mention or allude to the concept anywhere else - until now.  As much as you'd like to paint me as a fanatic, I haven't even posted there since Saturday.

That is a fact you can easily check.

This is your obsession, not mine.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 02:50:16 PM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:27:54 AMThe only people butthurt by the E-Democracy thread were those who stomped in there, thought they saw an easy target, and utterly failed to convincingly pick it apart.  Hello.

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

You spun like a fucking ballerina.

Not at all.  Some good points were raised with regards anonymity and accessibility, but for me the thread was about discovering problems and crafting solutions, and it was remarkably successful on that front.

Quote from: Cramulus on July 28, 2010, 03:19:37 PM
It's a pretty wild point of view. I enjoy the motion to kill the ego and defeat the self, it helps me detach from bullshit ego games.

I'm philosophically opposed to that, but I understand it.

Quote from: Cramulus on July 28, 2010, 03:19:37 PM


Chapter 61
A successful cabal is like a dust cloud,
arriving from nowhere,
ungraspable,
and fading into nothingness.
The tallest blade of grass gets cut,
while the crab grass creeps unharmed.
Keep your head down.
Keep your fucking mouth shut.

Thus by concentrating on goals
without playing ego games,
much can be accomplished.
If all you want to do
is brag about how cool you are,
you might want learn to play the guitar, instead.

Sort of plays into the KYFMS rule, if I'm understanding it correctly.

QuoteCan you honestly say that you would have been so quick to call out an idea as "bullshit" if it had come from Rog?  Or any other established regular, for that matter?

Yes, if I thought the idea was bullshit I would say so. In all honesty, most of the ideas I've read presented here I either like or find at least find interesting. But in this case I thought the idea was bullshit, so I fucking said so!  I also gave reason and examples of why I thought the idea was bullshit. Whenever Doloras comes back, I'll be looking forward to the response.

In reading Doloras' blog, I have no doubt that the reply will be a good one. What I do doubt is that he needs you to protect his oh so sensitive feelings. And if you can find any evidence of me ever being afraid of anyone on this board, than please, by all means, show it to me. Otherwise, shut the fuck up. I have no interest in getting involved in you and Dok's argument. But if you ever try to use me as an example to prove some bullshit point again, I will show you what rage really is.

Now fuck off.

Poor Captain.  It seems the helpless victims he has decided to save aren't as helpless as he wished.   :cry:

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 04:32:04 PM

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 06:37:02 AM

Quote from: Sigmatic on July 28, 2010, 06:21:36 AM
ETA:  But that's corollary to the point that you used the fact that Charley agreed with Dok Howl against him, which is somewhat poor form, even in the lax debate conduct standards we have here.

It wasn't aimed at Dok Howl.  It was against Charley who, on about 5-6 occasions now has stayed out of the debate until Doc Howl lays the first blow, then he'll run in with a quick follow up attack.  It's the sort of thing you tend to notice when you're on the bottom of a dogpile.

I'm awake now asshole

Sticks and stones, etc.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 04:32:04 PM
You claim in the E thread you countered all questions when you never did.

I did answer all questions.  I took liberty not to repeat myself when the same question was asked again and again without addressing my response, but I dodged nothing.  Not that it matters.

Not that you'd know either, since you demonstrated that reading the OP or even the posts in the thread was something beneath you, and much less fun than trolling with one-liners.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 04:32:04 PM
So take your fucking cult leader yapping and go out in the yard with it puppy.

The "cult leader" thing is an intentional strawman, I didn't say it, allude to it, or think it.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 04:38:59 PM
Poor Captain.  It seems the helpless victims he has decided to save aren't as helpless as he wished.   :cry:

Fuck off with your "helpless victims" routine.  This is what I wrote, and I stand by it.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 01:51:56 AM
:|

I was rather looking forward to seeing why Doloras was convinced that the other side of the coin didn't exist.

If someone expresses an idea forcefully, while thinking something through, is that enough of an excuse to jump down their throat and call their ideas bullshit?  What's the problem with asking someone why they believe something, rather than straight-out mocking them for it?  What's the problem with handling disagreements with civility and respect?

I don't see anything offensive in Doloras' 8-post history that justifies that treatment.

As for Delores, et al, I consider kid gloves an insult, unless the person I am dealing with is obviously very young, or mentally/emotionally deficient.

So I rage when I feel the need to.  Life is tough, wear a hat.

Something is seriously wrong with you. I don't know or even care what it is. What I do know is other people disagreeing with one of your ideas results in you suffering this kind of extreme butthurt then perhaps you are in the wrong place.

Maybe an nice fluffy Unicorn pagan board?

I thought your idea in the E thread was without merit and potentially dangerous. I disagreed with it. You pitched a little bitch fit and cried. Get a helmet.

The utter bullshit you posted in this thread is beyond belief. It is like you have simply decided to troll PD now. Go ahead, we have seen it over and over.

Bye.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 04:48:00 PM
As for Delores, et al, I consider kid gloves an insult, unless the person I am dealing with is obviously very young, or mentally/emotionally deficient.

So I rage when I feel the need to.  Life is tough, wear a hat.

Fair enough.  Likewise, I'll comment if I think it's excessive.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 04:50:59 PM
Something is seriously wrong with you. I don't know or even care what it is. What I do know is other people disagreeing with one of your ideas results in you suffering this kind of extreme butthurt then perhaps you are in the wrong place.

Maybe an nice fluffy Unicorn pagan board?

I thought your idea in the E thread was without merit and potentially dangerous. I disagreed with it. You pitched a little bitch fit and cried. Get a helmet.

Blah blah blah.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 04:50:59 PM
The utter bullshit you posted in this thread is beyond belief. It is like you have simply decided to troll PD now. Go ahead, we have seen it over and over.

No, Roger picked a fight with me, and you jumped right the fuck in.  This is not me trolling PD.com, but nice try.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 28, 2010, 04:37:32 PM
In reading Doloras' blog, I have no doubt that the reply will be a good one. What I do doubt is that he needs you to protect his oh so sensitive feelings. And if you can find any evidence of me ever being afraid of anyone on this board, than please, by all means, show it to me. Otherwise, shut the fuck up. I have no interest in getting involved in you and Dok's argument. But if you ever try to use me as an example to prove some bullshit point again, I will show you what rage really is.

Now fuck off.

Yeah, that's not what I was trying to say, but it did totally come out that way.  Sorry about that.

QuoteYeah, that's not what I was trying to say, but it did totally come out that way.  Sorry about that.

I don't care. Just don't repeat the mistake. Understand?

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 04:59:42 PM

No, Roger picked a fight with me, and you jumped right the fuck in.  This is not me trolling PD.com, but nice try.

1.  Perhaps he simply agreed with me.  We curmudgeony old men are like that.

2.  Really?  You already stated that you're here because we're doin' it wrong (spurious claims of "doom & gloom", IIRC).

Dr Semaj also has a better avatar, which renders CU's arguments invalid.

Pulp action heroes FTW.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 04:59:42 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 28, 2010, 04:48:00 PM
As for Delores, et al, I consider kid gloves an insult, unless the person I am dealing with is obviously very young, or mentally/emotionally deficient.

So I rage when I feel the need to.  Life is tough, wear a hat.

Fair enough.  Likewise, I'll comment if I think it's excessive.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 04:50:59 PM
Something is seriously wrong with you. I don't know or even care what it is. What I do know is other people disagreeing with one of your ideas results in you suffering this kind of extreme butthurt then perhaps you are in the wrong place.

Maybe an nice fluffy Unicorn pagan board?

I thought your idea in the E thread was without merit and potentially dangerous. I disagreed with it. You pitched a little bitch fit and cried. Get a helmet.

Blah blah blah.

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 28, 2010, 04:50:59 PM
The utter bullshit you posted in this thread is beyond belief. It is like you have simply decided to troll PD now. Go ahead, we have seen it over and over.

No, Roger picked a fight with me, and you jumped right the fuck in.  This is not me trolling PD.com, but nice try.

And that is exactly what your responses in that thread read like. As a matter of fact, it's exactly what your responses in this thread read like.

I think you are no longer worth my time. Please feel free to get butthurt from me ignoring you from here on out.

QuotePulp action heroes FTW.

THIS. Followed by (http://home.comcast.net/~cjh5801a/images/shad6.gif)

Except no subsitutes.

Fuck yeah.

We need to do something with that.

I feel a Tucson postergasm coming on.

QuoteWe need to do something with that.

I feel a Tucson postergasm coming on.

What do you have in mind?

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 28, 2010, 10:05:30 PM

QuoteWe need to do something with that.

I feel a Tucson postergasm coming on.

What do you have in mind?

Loads of Shadow, Doc Strange, etc, images with "Remember Me?" or "THE SHADOW STILL KNOWS." on them.

At first, of course, people will think it's a teaser for a movie.

Nice. Should throw some Fu Manchu in there to.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 29, 2010, 12:37:38 AM
Nice. Should throw some Fu Manchu in there to.

Fuck yeah.  Downloading images like a bastard.

Post some pictures, at least of the completed posters. Am interested.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 29, 2010, 01:52:42 AM
Post some pictures, at least of the completed posters. Am interested.

Will do.  I'm going to actually size them & shit while I'm traveling next week.

Expect results a week from tomorrow.

Mad Doktors palling around with Pulp Heroes.  Cats sleeping with dogs.


I don't understand this fucking business.  :lulz:

ROCK THEIR SOCKS DOK!

Doktor Alphapance, I think there is a song in there!

QuoteMad Doktors palling around with Pulp Heroes.  Cats sleeping with dogs.


I don't understand this fucking business.   :lulz:

How do you think Mad Doktors and Pulp Adventurers were able to stay in business. The Doks needed someone to fund their work, while the Adventurers needed someone to thwart. Can't even tell you how many Mad Scientists Doc Savage bankrolled.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on July 29, 2010, 03:30:18 PM

QuoteMad Doktors palling around with Pulp Heroes.  Cats sleeping with dogs.


I don't understand this fucking business.   :lulz:

How do you think Mad Doktors and Pulp Adventurers were able to stay in business. The Doks needed someone to fund their work, while the Adventurers needed someone to thwart. Can't even tell you how many Mad Scientists Doc Savage bankrolled.

Correct Motorcycle!

Noob posted something that read as stupid, and also counter-intuitive in regards to a somewhat common sentiment on the boards. 

Hyperbole was invoked.  If Noob actually did die in a fire, I think we'd all feel pretty bad about that.

Noob did not follow up with convincing argument, proof, or even anectdote.

Argument was left to wither as discussion turned to whether hyperbole was really necessary.  Old wounds were picked open.

In the meantime, the OP dies a silent death.

Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on July 29, 2010, 08:17:19 PM
Noob posted something that read as stupid, and also counter-intuitive in regards to a somewhat common sentiment on the boards. 

Hyperbole was invoked.  If Noob actually did die in a fire, I think we'd all feel pretty bad about that.

Noob did not follow up with convincing argument, proof, or even anectdote.

Argument was left to wither as discussion turned to whether hyperbole was really necessary.  Old wounds were picked open.

In the meantime, the OP dies a silent death.

THAT SOUNDS JUST LIKE PD!

Indeed do many things come to pass

Quote from: Doloras LaPicho on July 27, 2010, 03:09:56 AM
There's no such thing as "individuals". Individual humans are only partly self-aware refractions of their culture, social and media environment, and DNA programming. So to say "individual humans are good but groups are bad" is not only superstitious nonsense - a verbal sacrifice to the unquestionable God of the Individualist Ego - but is completely bass-ackwards. The group makes the individual. An individual divorced from any group goes nuckin' futs - serial killer, Unabomber, sociopath, dictator.

Saying "social change must start from the individual" is precisely as silly as "changes in the tides must start with the individual water droplet". As above, so below: social changes is always and everywhere the same thing as individual change. One just does not happen without the other.

Ooh, the lady from Chaos Marxism.  Good to see you here.

Talk about muddles of models!

'I can model some, but not all, human action as part of a greater thing... THEREFORE THERE IS NO INDIVIDUAL!!!!'
'I can model some, but not all, human action as self-aware choice... THEREFORE THERE IS THE INDIVIDUAL!!!'

...
.....

I think that society, tribe, etc would not exist without the individual. I think that the individual would have a difficult time (though not impossible) to live without the tribe.

The question should not be WHICH ONE, but how do we balance the two.... IMO the individual must change, for the society to change.

Or if we want to use a bad collective metaphor... The gene must change before the organism can change.

"The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations. This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people, was the real American Revolution." - John Adams

And when men become free then mankind will be free.
May you be free of The Curse of Greyface.
May the Goddess put twinkles in your eyes.
May you have the knowledge of a sage,
and the wisdom of a child.
Hail Eris.

Quote from: Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 09:08:28 PM
Talk about muddles of models!

'I can model some, but not all, human action as part of a greater thing... THEREFORE THERE IS NO INDIVIDUAL!!!!'
'I can model some, but not all, human action as self-aware choice... THEREFORE THERE IS THE INDIVIDUAL!!!'

...
.....

I think that society, tribe, etc would not exist without the individual. I think that the individual would have a difficult time (though not impossible) to live without the tribe.

The question should not be WHICH ONE, but how do we balance the two.... IMO the individual must change, for the society to change.

Or if we want to use a bad collective metaphor... The gene must change before the organism can change.

"The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations. This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people, was the real American Revolution." - John Adams

And when men become free then mankind will be free.
May you be free of The Curse of Greyface.
May the Goddess put twinkles in your eyes.
May you have the knowledge of a sage,
and the wisdom of a child.
Hail Eris.

I don't think one or the other has to come first.  Societal changes change individuals within the society and individual changes change the society the individual is part of.  However we have much more control over our individual selves, so to create a change our selves are the only place we can really start.

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 29, 2010, 10:29:25 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 09:08:28 PM
Talk about muddles of models!

'I can model some, but not all, human action as part of a greater thing... THEREFORE THERE IS NO INDIVIDUAL!!!!'
'I can model some, but not all, human action as self-aware choice... THEREFORE THERE IS THE INDIVIDUAL!!!'

...
.....

I think that society, tribe, etc would not exist without the individual. I think that the individual would have a difficult time (though not impossible) to live without the tribe.

The question should not be WHICH ONE, but how do we balance the two.... IMO the individual must change, for the society to change.

Or if we want to use a bad collective metaphor... The gene must change before the organism can change.

"The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations. This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people, was the real American Revolution." - John Adams

And when men become free then mankind will be free.
May you be free of The Curse of Greyface.
May the Goddess put twinkles in your eyes.
May you have the knowledge of a sage,
and the wisdom of a child.
Hail Eris.

I don't think one or the other has to come first.  Societal changes change individuals within the society and individual changes change the society the individual is part of.  However we have much more control over our individual selves, so to create a change our selves are the only place we can really start.

Are you saying leaders are fictional?

Quote from: Doktor Charley Brown on July 30, 2010, 12:34:00 AM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 29, 2010, 10:29:25 PM

Quote from: Ratatosk on July 29, 2010, 09:08:28 PM
Talk about muddles of models!

'I can model some, but not all, human action as part of a greater thing... THEREFORE THERE IS NO INDIVIDUAL!!!!'
'I can model some, but not all, human action as self-aware choice... THEREFORE THERE IS THE INDIVIDUAL!!!'

...
.....

I think that society, tribe, etc would not exist without the individual. I think that the individual would have a difficult time (though not impossible) to live without the tribe.

The question should not be WHICH ONE, but how do we balance the two.... IMO the individual must change, for the society to change.

Or if we want to use a bad collective metaphor... The gene must change before the organism can change.

"The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations. This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people, was the real American Revolution." - John Adams

And when men become free then mankind will be free.
May you be free of The Curse of Greyface.
May the Goddess put twinkles in your eyes.
May you have the knowledge of a sage,
and the wisdom of a child.
Hail Eris.

I don't think one or the other has to come first.  Societal changes change individuals within the society and individual changes change the society the individual is part of.  However we have much more control over our individual selves, so to create a change our selves are the only place we can really start.

Are you saying leaders are fictional?

I think "an illusion" would be more accurate than fictional.