I tried searching for a thread on this but couldn't find any. If one exists, I'd appreciate being kindly directed to it :D
Either way, I wanted to throw some of my own thoughts out here to see how mangled they'll be when I come back tomorrow:
Order = that which arranges things already extant, builds things from parts, groups things, forms things, does not like luck and chance
Disorder = luck and chance, probability, randomness, screw the grouping and lining things up and arranging neatly, can build things from parts but more importantly can make things that don't exist come into existence and vice versa(envision particles blinking into existence and nonexistence at the quantum level, all based on probabilities)
Creative = bringing things together to create something new from parts (emergence, as an example?) or making things exist
Destructive = breaking things apart, breaking bonds between things, making things not exist anymore
I tried coming up with examples:
Creative order = the human body is amazingly complex and structured, and is basically extremely ordered cells. Each cell is an individual life in itself, but it is the order that allows them to create an extra, larger life, the I of the entire body (the soul or whatever that thinks these thoughts and directs my body to type them)
Destructive order = grouping people based on the color of their skin (breaks international bonds, causes conflict); also, government sometimes (most of the time)
Destructive disorder = mobs, anarchical violence.
What is creative disorder? Examples? That's where I got stuck.
Presumably there is something drastically wrong with the fundamentals of this theory, which is why I'm getting stuck, so...
... help me please?
Creative Disorder = extremely well planned assault to fuck shit up.
Creative Disorder:
Brainstorming
Mucking around with a new toy/software program/thingamajig until you find a way to do something cool with it
and some other stuff
So basically just doing random things until something cool happens?
Another part of my theory was that the Universe was a cool thing that happened as a result of creative disorder - in other words, creative disorder is God (or goddess, or Eris). Please refute?
Imposition of Disorder = Escalation of Order
so
Imposition of Creative Disorder = Escalation of Creative Order (I think)
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 11:47:59 PM
So basically just doing random things until something cool happens?
Another part of my theory was that the Universe was a cool thing that happened as a result of creative disorder - in other words, creative disorder is God (or goddess, or Eris). Please refute?
Hiya, guy. I try to think of it this way. To an extent, its a matter of goals. When you create order, you also create disorder. Take a standard deck of playing cards. You have 52 cards scattered about on a table. Disorderly, right? So, you pick them up as they lie, face up, face down, 5 of hearts next to the deuce of clubs, etc. You ordered them, but into another form of disorder. Then you arrange them by suit, but you still got the four next to the queen, and so on. Disorder within order.But that's enough about order.
Next, you throw the cards into the air and scatter them again. Disorder! BUT.... your nicely arranged cards WILL fall into some nicely arranged patterns, and there will be a measure of order in them, that could only have been created by the disorder of scattering them. Order within, and dependent upon, disorder. The recognition of disorder as a creative force.
Perhaps not the best explanation. But that's one way of thinking of it.
Or not.
To address Creative Disorder as Goddess: Yes.
The long explanation: Think of all the infinite of possibilities for the configuration of the universe. Why this one? More locally, why are people physically made the way they are? Is it because its the
best configuration? To be truly best, wouldn't we have thicker hides, wings, prehensile tails, claws, venom sacs, marsupii, dolphin brains, ultraviolet vision, sonar ears, multiple limbs, and countless other useful things we don't? How I would so love to have a spinneret and an ink gland! Creative Disorder. We get opposable thumbs. Bats get sonar. We get the ability to stand upright. Dogs get four legs. Why? Why not?
Or not.
This is what I think on the matter at the moment, at least.
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 11:47:59 PM
So basically just doing random things until something cool happens?
I guess you could say that, but it wouldn't jibe well with what Charley Brown mentioned, which I think also qualifies as Creative Disorder. A random or extremely unusual event that causes a great big upset leading to new ideas or new stuff (as opposed to a random upset that leaves a gaping crater behind).
Doktor Alphapance (formerly LMNO) has a New and Improved chart of Order, Disorder, Destruction, and Creation somewhere. He should totally dig it up and post ITT.
Quote
Another part of my theory was that the Universe was a cool thing that happened as a result of creative disorder - in other words, creative disorder is God (or goddess, or Eris). Please refute?
Eris, in typical Discordian terms, is referred to as Chaos, which is not the same as Disorder. Chaos comprises all possible things, and within this Chaos we, as humans, see the illusions of Order and Disorder.
You
could say that the creation of the universe was an act of creative disorder, but that would be giving in to the illusion. The universe contains everything that we could perceive as Order, Disorder, Destruction, and Creation, because it is Chaos.
Look at something one way, it is Ordered; from another perspective, it is Disordered (a ceremonial ritual practiced and understood in one culture looks to an outsider as though everyone's lost their marbles). Something is Creative in some sense, Destructive in another sense (a political revolution, for example). The fact that how we see these things depends on perspective is the clue that they are illusions.
P.S. When I was typing this I accidentally left out the space between the words "but" and "that", thus creating "butthat". I thought everyone should know.
Quote from: Cainad on August 17, 2010, 01:24:53 AM
P.S. When I was typing this I accidentally left out the space between the words "but" and "that", thus creating "butthat". I thought everyone should know.
I tried to put a hat on my butt once. Didn't work out so well, as you might have thought.
In all seriousness, you bring up a good point that I intentionally left out. Eris is Chaos, and in perfect chaos, everything exists, in a sense. Even butthats. But I think that's a different discussion, isn't it?
in brief, creative refers to bringing something new into the world
disorder refers to something outside of an established pattern
Creative Disorder...
when you create something, you get to make a lot of choices about it
you build based on rules you've learned
trying to operationalize an idea you have
If you stick to the rules, that's a form of creative order
If your creation comes from the betrayal of the rules, that's creative disorder
So if you spend years studying art (or anything, really)
you'll have a pretty good idea of "how it works". But if you want to create something new, you have to go into uncharted territory
most humor is a form of creative disorder, since it relies on surprise, a betrayal of expectations.
and most art that's worth anything also involves a degree of creative disorder
Thanks Cram! I get it now...
I think.
Trying to apply what you said to destruction, I get something like this:
You can destroy based on rules you've learned (about destroying things?),
which would be destructive order?
Or you can destroy in a way that betrays the rules of destroying things,
which would be destructive disorder?
According to your thoughts, it's not really order and disorder, but rather the Expected and the Unexpected...
Although it's true that order sets patterns for even the future, while disorder is unpredictable.
I mildly disagree with Cram's sentiment. Rather, I think it is oversimplified. Maybe that's just me.
I get the feeling that this is going to be an interesting discussion, though.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on August 17, 2010, 02:04:38 AM
I mildly disagree with Cram's sentiment. Rather, I think it is oversimplified. Maybe that's just me.
please elaborate?
It's simple, although the problem I'm finding with it is how it doesn't address destruction...
well, not when I tried to figure it out on my own anyway.
Cram?
Quote from: Cramulus on August 17, 2010, 01:42:20 AM
in brief, creative refers to bringing something new into the world
disorder refers to something outside of an established pattern
Creative Disorder...
when you create something, you get to make a lot of choices about it
you build based on rules you've learned
trying to operationalize an idea you have
If you stick to the rules, that's a form of creative order
If your creation comes from the betrayal of the rules, that's creative disorder
So if you spend years studying art (or anything, really)
you'll have a pretty good idea of "how it works". But if you want to create something new, you have to go into uncharted territory
most humor is a form of creative disorder, since it relies on surprise, a betrayal of expectations.
and most art that's worth anything also involves a degree of creative disorder
Well, for starters, to create something new, you have to go outside the bounds of what is established, unless you decide to expand the rules within which you are working. Look at the history of art, since it's been brought up already. It can really be seen in the microcosm of Pablo Picasso. He didn't go from realism to surrealism overnight. It was a gradual transition that occurred one painting at a time. Yet, I would argue that this is still creative disorder. You can create something within an established order that is not of itself orderly. Disorder within order, as I said. It can be both creative and destructive. If you disrupt a system of order with too much disorder, it becomes destructive. Likewise if you impose too much order unto a system of disorder, it is destructive.
I'll give this more thought, though, and see what I come up with.
Are you saying that destruction happens whenever things get out of balance?
(I disagree, but kind of have to leave now, so shall elaborate on that later this week. I need to think some more too.)
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 17, 2010, 03:04:31 AM
Are you saying that destruction happens whenever things get out of balance?
(I disagree, but kind of have to leave now, so shall elaborate on that later this week. I need to think some more too.)
Yes and no. That was just an example of how one can go from creative to destructive. Perhaps that didn't read as well as I thought it would, and it was non-sequitur. As far as balance, I believe that destructive order and disorder are an upset balance, but then again, I suppose there could be creative forces that weren't "balanced" per se, though I'm not quite sure what that means.
hyperdiscordia on creative disorder: http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/creative_disorder.html
the principia on creative/destructive order/disorder
THE CURSE OF GREYFACE AND THE INTRODUCTION OF NEGATIVISM
To choose the creative over the destructive is an all-creative trip composed of both order and disorder...
To choose order over disorder, or disorder over order, is to accept a trip composed of both the creative and the destructive. But to choose the creative over the destructive is an all-creative trip composed of both order and disorder. To accomplish this, one need only accept creative disorder along with, and equal to, creative order, and also willing to reject destructive order as an undesirable equal to destructive disorder.
The Curse of Greyface included the division of life into order/disorder as the essential positive/negative polarity, instead of building a game foundation with creative/destructive as the essential positive/negative. He has thereby caused man to endure the destructive aspects of order and has prevented man from effectively participating in the creative uses of disorder. Civilization reflects this unfortunate division.
POEE proclaims that the other division is preferable, and we work toward the proposition that creative disorder, like creative order, is possible and desirable; and that destructive order, like destructive disorder, is unnecessary and undesirable.
So according to mal and omar, the curse of greyface is imprinting order = good and disorder = bad
they thought this was a false dichotomy, and had people getting all up in arms about stupid things
to counter this, they imposed a NEW fake dichotomy on top of it, so that there could be "good" order and "good" disorder.
why is creativity better than destruction? what does creativity mean, anyway? they don't go into too much detail about it.
but they do say that if you embrace the all-creative trip, then life can go back to being about play and happy romance
Quote from: Cainad on August 17, 2010, 01:24:53 AM
Doktor Alphapance (formerly LMNO) has a New and Improved chart of Order, Disorder, Destruction, and Creation somewhere. He should totally dig it up and post ITT.
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=5054.msg495986#msg495986
I can give you a good example of creative disorder: improv music.
I was in an improv band for a number of years and that really was the whole deal. Creating something out of nothing. Nothing pre-written, pre-rehearsed, etc., etc., Everything made up on the spot including which instruments to use when.
It was beautiful man.
There is no "creative" or "destructive" disorder.
In fact, there isn't any order or disorder.
Just two sides of the coin we call "Chaos".
Interesting reads on 'growing pains' may be more simplified for those of us lacking a basic understanding.
Or, for the more physically apt, studying different styles of martial art philosophies. Kung Fu students are known to beat themselves with rods of steel to gain bone strength likened to steel.
Creative disorder usually involves venturing outside the realm of comfort that many, if not most of us are so willing to do.
Quote from: Ruby on August 17, 2010, 07:29:09 PM
Or, for the more physically apt, studying different styles of martial art philosophies. Kung Fu students are known to beat themselves with rods of steel to gain bone strength likened to steel.
Oh?
Quote from: Ruby on August 17, 2010, 07:29:09 PM
Interesting reads on 'growing pains' may be more simplified for those of us lacking a basic understanding.
Care to explain that?
Quote from: Ruby on August 17, 2010, 07:29:09 PM
Or, for the more physically apt, studying different styles of martial art philosophies. Kung Fu students are known to beat themselves with rods of steel to gain bone strength likened to steel.
Funny, I've never heard that inside a serious martial arts circle.
Quote from: Ruby on August 17, 2010, 07:29:09 PM
Creative disorder usually involves venturing outside the realm of comfort that many, if not most of us are not so willing to do.
Fixed.
This is probably the closest thing you've said to being accurate. But there is much, much more to it than that. Or not. As Doktor Howl pointed out, it's all Chaos, baby. Perfect Chaos. Yin and Yang, Hodge and Podge.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 17, 2010, 07:30:56 PM
Quote from: Ruby on August 17, 2010, 07:29:09 PM
Or, for the more physically apt, studying different styles of martial art philosophies. Kung Fu students are known to beat themselves with rods of steel to gain bone strength likened to steel.
Oh?
Wut? i chew rocks to make my teef stronger
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 18, 2010, 03:51:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 17, 2010, 07:30:56 PM
Quote from: Ruby on August 17, 2010, 07:29:09 PM
Or, for the more physically apt, studying different styles of martial art philosophies. Kung Fu students are known to beat themselves with rods of steel to gain bone strength likened to steel.
Oh?
Wut? i chew rocks to make my teef stronger
I fuck garbage disposals to make my dick harder. :fap:
Morons.
Also, as for my referencing reads on growing pains, what I have come across is the vitamin and mineral deficiencies that cause such are also not necessarily best for different parts of the brain. It isn't a field I am fluent in, obviously, but just a start was phosphate, calcium, and especially flouride. Those things negatively effect the infamous pineal gland, and, I think, from suggestive reads could also trigger premature aging genes within some.
It is creative disorder for the fact of the impossibly delicate balance that depends upon the individual.
Okay, so I am just rambling possible nonsense, but to me it is completely plausible. :mrgreen:
Ruby, I fail to comprehend your posts, which seem to be leading us off-topic either way (unless fucking garbage is a form of creative disorder? well, maybe), so please.... I don't know if I have the authority to tell you to do that, actually. Nevermind.
Also - thanks for the links, Cram and LMNO. The chart's helping me a lot here.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 17, 2010, 07:26:58 PM
There is no "creative" or "destructive" disorder.
In fact, there isn't any order or disorder.
Just two sides of the coin we call "Chaos".
By the way, I'm not really quite sure what Chaos is. Being formerly Taoist, I always thought that Chaos was something very much like what Taoists like to call the Tao. I always viewed this as the nature of existence, or the Way things Are. A while back, I decided that while not much could be said about this inscrutable Way, the nature of existence is creative rather than destructive. It just made sense that existence wouldn't be suicidal.
ANYWAY. So order and disorder are illusions? The Principia does say that, but unfortunately, the Machine is not an illusion, and the government is not an illusion, and the order that we live by and are trapped in is real enough, even if it is an illusion, because we act as if it is real. Thus, you can say that these things don't exist, because the concepts of them exist... (and in order to fulfill the PD's command of 'more creative disorder', I need to figure out what that is first)
I'm bringing up that argument again, like where God might not exist in objective reality, but he's real enough to have caused wars et al et al.
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 19, 2010, 01:04:02 AM
By the way, I'm not really quite sure what Chaos is. Being formerly Taoist, I always thought that Chaos was something very much like what Taoists like to call the Tao. I always viewed this as the nature of existence, or the Way things Are. A while back, I decided that while not much could be said about this inscrutable Way, the nature of existence is creative rather than destructive. It just made sense that existence wouldn't be suicidal.
Sez who? One could point to the phenomenon of entropy to refute that.
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 19, 2010, 01:04:02 AM
ANYWAY. So order and disorder are illusions? The Principia does say that, but unfortunately, the Machine is not an illusion, and the government is not an illusion, and the order that we live by and are trapped in is real enough, even if it is an illusion, because we act as if it is real. Thus, you can say that these things don't exist, because the concepts of them exist... (and in order to fulfill the PD's command of 'more creative disorder', I need to figure out what that is first)
I'm bringing up that argument again, like where God might not exist in objective reality, but he's real enough to have caused wars et al et al.
Order and Disorder are illusions because pretty much all dichotomies are illusions. They may be useful for navigating our way through life, but they're still only concepts.
Consider Creation and Destruction. If a star goes nova, is that Destructive because the star ceased to be a star, or is it Creative because the matter and energy that were once arranged in what we call a star became a nebula? Either answer is true depending on how you look at it.
Consider Order and Disorder. Is a Jackson Pollock painting a Disorderly mess of colors and shapes, or is there a kind of Order to it that reflects the meaning and intent behind the splatters of color?
The Principia says these things are illusions; it does not say we should disregard or ignore them and go around gibbering like a bunch of loons about how "All is Chaos, everything is an illusion!" Just because something is an illusion doesn't mean it's meaningless or dismissible. It just means it's not as Really Real For (Obective) Realness as one might assume it is.
As for what Chaos "is", I've said it above. It's the Whole Thing. All of it.
Every possibility, every happening. Every non-possibility, every non-happening.
Every thing. Even that thing.
Yes, that too.
You
could compare it to the Tao, but the flaw there would be that Taoist thought, as far as I am aware, considers the division of Everything into Yin and Yang to be Really Real for Realness, i.e., the universe would have those dichotomous concepts even if humans weren't around to label them as such.
All of those "Order", "Disorder", "Creation", and "Destruction" things are tools human brains invented so we wouldn't confuse ourselves. Chaos came first.
Thank you for the explanations! And sorry for being so slow. I think I just understood Discordianism, finally.
All dichotomies are illusions. The only thing that's real is Chaos... which is Everything, untouched by our minds.
This makes me happier. Less confused, but also more confused at the same time without any grids to hang on to.
Quex,
Figured it Out Somewhat.
you might dig this:
http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Sacred_Chao_Te_Ching
Chapter 25
There is Something that exists,
beyond the Illusions of Order and Disorder.
It is all things, and unknowable in full.
We only see small parts of It,
but are convinced what we see is the entire Universe.
For lack of a better name, I call It "Chaos".
At dinner parties, I claim It is everything Possible and Impossible.
When asked why not call It "god",
I point out that their head is too fucking small.
Because we create the Illusions in which we live,
we are more creative than Chaos.
Because we believe in the Illusions we create,
our heads are too fucking small.
In this way, we reflect our creations.
Chapter 46
When people understand Chaos,
they live their lives as they please.
When people misunderstand Chaos,
the Machine™ grinds them into grist.
The greatest cause of Disorder is Order.
The greatest motivator of Order is Disorder.
Whoever can embrace both will see for miles.
Chapter 55
Those who understand Chaos can pierce any illusion.
Disorder does not trouble them.
Order does not placate them.
They see around the bars of their Cell,
and always look just a little bit further.
They can freely create, knowing no boundaries,
but color inside the lines when they must.
They can wear ideas like masks, but remove them at will,
and are not bound by chains of Faith.
To know Chaos is to always be in doubt.
To know doubt is to always seek an answer.
To try and force Truth is dangerous.
To decide you're right before getting the facts is foolish;
The first errant bit of evidence will cause a collapse.
Whatever is monolithic will fall.
Chapter 62
Chaos is contained in all things.
It hides in the Illusions of Order and Disorder.
Solid walls can break.
Scattered stones can tell a story.
Why should we choose one over the other?
So when Authority tightens its fists
one must learn to slip through the fingers.
When the Philosopher rambles,
hit him with a barstool from this universe.
How do the wise spags embrace Chaos?
They do not favor Order or Disorder.
Both Order and Disorder are windows.
Behind them lies Chaos.
Chapter 67
Chaos is quick to dispel fanatics.
When you have no certainty
you cannot remain willfully blind.
Uncertainty has a momentum of its own.
It gives rise to curiosity,
which brings about questions,
which births uncertainty.
Certainty un-tempered by doubt,
direction without freedom,
carelessness without humor:
These things are heavy like Greyface's luggage.
Fuck what you "know" about Chaos.
Chapter 76
When born, we are close to Chaos.
We simply experience, we have no names.
Growing up, we learn how to make patterns
and we are taught about Order and Disorder.
Believing this to be reality,
our minds and bodies become rigid,
rather than flexible.
And so are easy to break.
OP:
1. Purse your lips.
2. Make a "BRRRR" sound.
3. Extend your index finger.
4. Begin to wiggle it back and forth.
5. Apply your wiggling finger to your lips.
Consider creative disorder as nonsense and creative order as words. Obviously you must have one with the other.
I'll take a cue from RWHN and his improv and refer to scat singing. ABOODEEDADILDDLEBOPBOPZINGAZANADING. In some way you can see how this jovial nonsense doesn't really point anything other than itself. It's like an expression of pure exuberance and delight. It's SWINGIN MAN!
Or remember when you were a child and you'd bust your ass climbing that huge snow covered hill and when you get to the top, you mount your sled, push back and
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!1
Words, on the other hand, only refer to more words endlessly and endlessly. They give meaning, create the grid through which you view the world and make THINGS STUFF. They're good for convention, ya know?
As a corrective measure to this conventional 'common sense' that we're used to, consider creative disorder. Consider the world instead of something with THINGS in it, but like a piece of music or a dance or
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!1
Remember when Dante heard the choir of angels he said it sounded like the laughter of the universe.
Quote from: Cramulus on August 19, 2010, 03:46:58 AM
you might dig this:
http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Sacred_Chao_Te_Ching
This is awesome.
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 19, 2010, 01:04:02 AM
and the government is not an illusion,
It most certainly is. It's a social fiction.
And The Machine™ is us. You and me.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 03:02:42 PM
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 19, 2010, 01:04:02 AM
and the government is not an illusion,
It most certainly is. It's a social fiction.
And The Machine™ is us. You and me.
IS THAT WHY I AM ALWAYS SO WELL OILED?
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 07:25:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 03:02:42 PM
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 19, 2010, 01:04:02 AM
and the government is not an illusion,
It most certainly is. It's a social fiction.
And The Machine™ is us. You and me.
IS THAT WHY I AM ALWAYS SO WELL OILED?
No, that is more closely related to the unnatural perversions indulged in by the repressed population of Kansas.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 07:29:51 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 19, 2010, 07:25:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 19, 2010, 03:02:42 PM
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 19, 2010, 01:04:02 AM
and the government is not an illusion,
It most certainly is. It's a social fiction.
And The Machine™ is us. You and me.
IS THAT WHY I AM ALWAYS SO WELL OILED?
No, that is more closely related to the unnatural perversions indulged in by the repressed population of Kansas.
:spittake:
Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?
The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.
Lets go back to the source material on this whole "illusion" issue.
p49, The Sacred Chao:
----------
HERE FOLLOWS SOME PSYCHO-METAPHYSICS.
If you are not hot for philosophy, best just to skip it.
The Aneristic Principle is that of APPARENT ORDER; the Eristic Principle is that of APPARENT DISORDER. Both order and disorder are man made concepts and are artificial divisions of PURE CHAOS, which is a level deeper that is the level of distinction making.
With our concept making apparatus called "mind" we look at reality through the ideas-about-reality which our cultures give us. The ideas-about- reality are mistakenly labeled "reality" and unenlightened people are forever perplexed by the fact that other people, especially other cultures, see "reality" differently. It is only the ideas-about-reality which differ. Real (capital-T True) reality is a level deeper that is the level of concept.
We look at the world through windows on which have been drawn grids (concepts). Different philosophies use different grids.
A culture is a group of people with rather similar grids. Through a window we view chaos, and relate it to the points on our grid, and thereby understand it. The ORDER is in the GRID. That is the Aneristic Principle.
Western philosophy is traditionally concerned with contrasting one grid with another grid, and amending grids in hopes of finding a perfect one that will account for all reality and will, hence, (say unenlightened westerners) be True. This is illusory; it is what we Erisians call the ANERISTIC ILLUSION. Some grids can be more useful than others, some more beautiful than others, some more pleasant than others, etc., but none can be more True than any other.
DISORDER is simply unrelated information viewed through some particular grid. But, like "relation", no-relation is a concept. Male, like female, is an idea about sex. To say that male-ness is "absence of female-ness", or vice versa, is a matter of definition and metaphysically arbitrary. The artificial concept of no-relation is the ERISTIC PRINCIPLE.
The belief that "order is true" and disorder is false or somehow wrong, is the Aneristic Illusion. To say the same of disorder, is the ERISTIC ILLUSION.
The point is that (little-t) truth is a matter of definition relative to the grid one is using at the moment, and that (capital-T) Truth, metaphysical reality, is irrelevant to grids entirely. Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered.
Reality is the original Rorschach.
Verily! So much for all that.
----------
The Eristic/Aneristic PRINCIPLES talk about how we use grids, and that the same 'things' can appear Ordered or Disordered when viewed through different Grids. These PRINCIPLES are Useful Fictions that allow us to differentiate some 'parts' of Reality from other 'parts', but when using these PRINCIPLES we ignore part of Reality (it is "out of scope" in relation to the parts of Reality that we are currently investigating).
The Eristic/Aneristic ILLUSIONS are when you hold the position that one Grid represents the (capitol T) Truth. These positions are USELESS FICTIONS, or as the PD says, "The belief that "order is true" and disorder is false or somehow wrong, is the Aneristic Illusion. To say the same of disorder, is the ERISTIC ILLUSION."
Did that clear some of the Confusion up?
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 21, 2010, 01:36:03 AM
Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?
The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.
Order isn't a fucking illusion. Where do you get this stuff?
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 21, 2010, 01:36:03 AM
Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?
The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.
Its not that order within itself is an illusion, its that the difference between order and disorder is an illusion.
Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit.
Quote from: Kingderp on August 23, 2010, 12:44:43 AM
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 21, 2010, 01:36:03 AM
Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?
The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.
Its not that order within itself is an illusion, its that the difference between order and disorder is an illusion.
Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit.
Isn't that simply perspective? Order as the "true" fit is the Aneristic Illusion, and disorder as the "true" fit is the Eristic illusion, as Telarus pointed out above. But as everyone has been saying, Order and Disorder are merely flip sides of the same coin, Chaos.
Quote from: Telarus on August 21, 2010, 01:58:07 AM
tl;dr: Order and Disorder are both concepts (thus, as real as everything else), The illusion occurs when one puts one above the other as "true" or "right". It works both ways.
That clear it up for people who didn't actually read what was said?
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on August 23, 2010, 02:32:43 AM
Quote from: Kingderp on August 23, 2010, 12:44:43 AM
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 21, 2010, 01:36:03 AM
Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?
The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.
Its not that order within itself is an illusion, its that the difference between order and disorder is an illusion.
Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit.
Isn't that simply perspective? Order as the "true" fit is the Aneristic Illusion, and disorder as the "true" fit is the Eristic illusion, as Telarus pointed out above. But as everyone has been saying, Order and Disorder are merely flip sides of the same coin, Chaos.
"Reality is the original Rorschach."
So I think to answer your question, yes.
I think the implication here is that when you're no longer holding on to apparent dualities, you're free to make creative choices (some of which might be more orderly, some of which might be more disorderly) that include considerations for both order and disorder without being bound by either.
So it might be 'simply perspective' but when it comes in terms of self-limitation it seems like knowing where you make up dualistic distinctions could prove to be useful.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on August 23, 2010, 02:32:43 AM
Quote from: Telarus on August 21, 2010, 01:58:07 AM
tl;dr: Order and Disorder are both concepts (thus, as real as everything else), The illusion occurs when one puts one above the other as "true" or "right". It works both ways.
That clear it up for people who didn't actually read what was said?
They probably should have read it then.
Quote from: Burns on August 23, 2010, 03:42:58 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on August 23, 2010, 02:32:43 AM
Quote from: Kingderp on August 23, 2010, 12:44:43 AM
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 21, 2010, 01:36:03 AM
Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?
The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.
Its not that order within itself is an illusion, its that the difference between order and disorder is an illusion.
Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit.
Isn't that simply perspective? Order as the "true" fit is the Aneristic Illusion, and disorder as the "true" fit is the Eristic illusion, as Telarus pointed out above. But as everyone has been saying, Order and Disorder are merely flip sides of the same coin, Chaos.
"Reality is the original Rorschach."
So I think to answer your question, yes.
I think the implication here is that when you're no longer holding on to apparent dualities, you're free to make creative choices (some of which might be more orderly, some of which might be more disorderly) that include considerations for both order and disorder without being bound by either.
So it might be 'simply perspective' but when it comes in terms of self-limitation it seems like knowing where you make up dualistic distinctions could prove to be useful.
I should have been more clear, I was referring only to the second line of the quoted statement: "Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit". I meant that the idea that order "fits" and disorder doesn't is a matter of perspective, and precisely where the illusion comes into the equation.
Quote from: Burns on August 23, 2010, 03:42:58 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on August 23, 2010, 02:32:43 AM
Quote from: Telarus on August 21, 2010, 01:58:07 AM
tl;dr: Order and Disorder are both concepts (thus, as real as everything else), The illusion occurs when one puts one above the other as "true" or "right". It works both ways.
That clear it up for people who didn't actually read what was said?
They probably should have read it then.
I agree.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on August 23, 2010, 04:09:30 AM
Quote from: Burns on August 23, 2010, 03:42:58 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on August 23, 2010, 02:32:43 AM
Quote from: Kingderp on August 23, 2010, 12:44:43 AM
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 21, 2010, 01:36:03 AM
Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?
The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.
Its not that order within itself is an illusion, its that the difference between order and disorder is an illusion.
Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit.
Isn't that simply perspective? Order as the "true" fit is the Aneristic Illusion, and disorder as the "true" fit is the Eristic illusion, as Telarus pointed out above. But as everyone has been saying, Order and Disorder are merely flip sides of the same coin, Chaos.
"Reality is the original Rorschach."
So I think to answer your question, yes.
I think the implication here is that when you're no longer holding on to apparent dualities, you're free to make creative choices (some of which might be more orderly, some of which might be more disorderly) that include considerations for both order and disorder without being bound by either.
So it might be 'simply perspective' but when it comes in terms of self-limitation it seems like knowing where you make up dualistic distinctions could prove to be useful.
I should have been more clear, I was referring only to the second line of the quoted statement: "Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit". I meant that the idea that order "fits" and disorder doesn't is a matter of perspective, and precisely where the illusion comes into the equation.
I should of been more clear. What I meant was this:
QuoteThe Aneristic Principle is that of apparent order; the Eristic Principle is that of apparent disorder. Both order and disorder are man made concepts and are artificial divisions of pure chaos, which is a level deeper than is the level of distinction making.
With our concept-making apparatus called "the brain" we look at reality through the ideas-about-reality which our cultures give us.
The ideas-about-reality are mistakenly labeled "reality" and unenlightened people are forever perplexed by the fact that other people, especially other cultures, see "reality" differently.
It is only the ideas-about-reality which differ. Real (capital-T) True reality is a level deeper than is the level of concept.
We look at the world through windows on which have been drawn grids (concepts). Different philosophies use different grids. A culture is a group of people with rather similar grids. Through a window we view chaos, and relate it to the points on our grid, and thereby understand it. The order is in the grid. That is the Aneristic Principle.
Western philosophy is traditionally concerned with contrasting one grid with another grid, and amending grids in hopes of finding a perfect one that will account for all reality and will, hence, (say unenlightened westerners) be True. This is illusory; it is what we Erisians call the Aneristic Illusion. Some grids can be more useful than others, some more beautiful than others, some more pleasant than others, etc., but none can be more True than any other.
Disorder is simply unrelated information viewed through some particular grid. But, like "relation", no-relation is a concept. Male, like female, is an idea about sex. To say that male-ness is "absence of female-ness", or vice versa, is a matter of definition and metaphysically arbitrary. The artificial concept of no-relation is the Eristic Principle.
The belief that "order is true" and disorder is false or somehow wrong, is the Aneristic Illusion. To say the same of disorder, is the Eristic Illusion.
The point is that (little-t) truth is a matter of definition relative to the grid one is using at the moment, and that (capital-T) Truth, metaphysical reality, is irrelevant to grids entirely. Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered.
Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
—Malaclypse the Younger, Principia Discordia, Pages 00049–00050
I just decided to summarize that into one sentence. Although I did leave out the concept Eristic Illusion(to be fair its much less popular than the Aneristic illusion)
Quote from: Kingderp on August 23, 2010, 04:28:04 AM
I just decided to summarize that into one sentence. Although I did leave out the concept Eristic Illusion(to be fair its much less popular than the Aneristic illusion)
Excessive quotation is fun, but I'm glad that's cleared up. It makes more sense now that you've explained it, but I find the Eristic Illusion to be just as valid a concern (if not moreso, considering where we are) as the Aneristic, popularity not withstanding.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on August 23, 2010, 04:09:30 AM
Quote from: Burns on August 23, 2010, 03:42:58 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on August 23, 2010, 02:32:43 AM
Quote from: Kingderp on August 23, 2010, 12:44:43 AM
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 21, 2010, 01:36:03 AM
Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?
The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.
Its not that order within itself is an illusion, its that the difference between order and disorder is an illusion.
Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit.
Isn't that simply perspective? Order as the "true" fit is the Aneristic Illusion, and disorder as the "true" fit is the Eristic illusion, as Telarus pointed out above. But as everyone has been saying, Order and Disorder are merely flip sides of the same coin, Chaos.
"Reality is the original Rorschach."
So I think to answer your question, yes.
I think the implication here is that when you're no longer holding on to apparent dualities, you're free to make creative choices (some of which might be more orderly, some of which might be more disorderly) that include considerations for both order and disorder without being bound by either.
So it might be 'simply perspective' but when it comes in terms of self-limitation it seems like knowing where you make up dualistic distinctions could prove to be useful.
I should have been more clear, I was referring only to the second line of the quoted statement: "Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit". I meant that the idea that order "fits" and disorder doesn't is a matter of perspective, and precisely where the illusion comes into the equation.
That sounds like a good observation. Sort of like how we seem to place significance on that which is foreground in each of our 'perspectives' rather than background. Then "forget" that implicit inseparability between foreground/background and play a game with ourself that one side is somehow more 'significant'.
Which may or may not get someone into some serious trouble, but it's generally pretty funny when it does. :fnord:
Quote from: Burns on August 23, 2010, 07:20:26 AM
That sounds like a good observation. Sort of like how we seem to place significance on that which is foreground in each of our 'perspectives' rather than background. Then "forget" that implicit inseparability between foreground/background and play a game with ourself that one side is somehow more 'significant'.
Which may or may not get someone into some serious trouble, but it's generally pretty funny when it does. :fnord:
Exactly. If we overlook the other part of the equation, problems begin to multiply. While it is true that it's all Chaos, you run the risk of oversimplifying it and become complacent and/or "forgetting" that there are opposing forces at work within Chaos. At least, that's how I see it.
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 21, 2010, 01:36:03 AM
Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?
The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.
Oddly enough, I was talking with an eminent physicist over my holiday. We were talking about something like this, but in a different manner, and he said something to this effect (paraphrasing):
The laws of nature work very well when we're trying to predict future events. Things seem to behave in the manner we want them to. However, when we get very, very small, the only way we can figure out what happened at a certain time is to go and look. There is no way to accurately predict exactly what will happen due to the very nature of the stuff.
So in the end, even science breaks down, and only the moment remains. Rather poetic, I think.
Yeah, Destruction and Creativity don't need to be treated as polar opposites. I can break a wishbone, and hey, I just created two wishbone-pieces, so it sort of counts as a sort of creation, or at least a changing. All creation is is putting things in an way that is appealing to the human brain, though modern art attempts to break even that, so really, by changing anything, you can call it being creative. Also, knocking over really tall stacks of tin cans makes unique patterns that look pretty awesome, so I guess you could call that creative disorder :wink:
Quote from: nekk on August 23, 2010, 03:56:00 PM
Yeah, Destruction and Creativity don't need to be treated as polar opposites. I can break a wishbone, and hey, I just created two wishbone-pieces, so it sort of counts as a sort of creation, or at least a changing. All creation is is putting things in an way that is appealing to the human brain, though modern at attempts to break even that, so really, by changing anything, you can call it being creative. Also, knocking over really tall stacks of tin cans makes unique patterns that look pretty awesome, so I guess you could call that creative disorder :wink:
So can calling other departments, saying you're from corporate, and demanding forms that don't exist.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 23, 2010, 04:58:51 PM
Quote from: nekk on August 23, 2010, 03:56:00 PM
Yeah, Destruction and Creativity don't need to be treated as polar opposites. I can break a wishbone, and hey, I just created two wishbone-pieces, so it sort of counts as a sort of creation, or at least a changing. All creation is is putting things in an way that is appealing to the human brain, though modern at attempts to break even that, so really, by changing anything, you can call it being creative. Also, knocking over really tall stacks of tin cans makes unique patterns that look pretty awesome, so I guess you could call that creative disorder :wink:
So can calling other departments, saying you're from corporate, and demanding forms that don't exist.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 19, 2010, 01:04:02 AM
By the way, I'm not really quite sure what Chaos is. Being formerly Taoist, I always thought that Chaos was something very much like what Taoists like to call the Tao. I always viewed this as the nature of existence, or the Way things Are.
as have I. I see no reason to draw a distinction between Tao and Chao. In one of my favorite Alan Watts recordings, he says (roughly) "The Tao is divided into 'this' and 'that'. but there is no division, only a circle. And if we were especially honest with ourselves, that circle would encompass the universe, expanding infinitely..." which is what chaos is, the totality of all and nothing, combine. I dig hippy shit like that.
Also, i'll just throw this out there: Sterilization is a Creative Disorder.
:fnord: