What is creative disorder?

[Cramulus]

hyperdiscordia on creative disorder: http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/creative_disorder.html

the principia on creative/destructive order/disorder

THE CURSE OF GREYFACE AND THE INTRODUCTION OF NEGATIVISM

To choose the creative over the destructive is an all-creative trip composed of both order and disorder...

To choose order over disorder, or disorder over order, is to accept a trip composed of both the creative and the destructive. But to choose the creative over the destructive is an all-creative trip composed of both order and disorder. To accomplish this, one need only accept creative disorder along with, and equal to, creative order, and also willing to reject destructive order as an undesirable equal to destructive disorder.

The Curse of Greyface included the division of life into order/disorder as the essential positive/negative polarity, instead of building a game foundation with creative/destructive as the essential positive/negative. He has thereby caused man to endure the destructive aspects of order and has prevented man from effectively participating in the creative uses of disorder. Civilization reflects this unfortunate division.

POEE proclaims that the other division is preferable, and we work toward the proposition that creative disorder, like creative order, is possible and desirable; and that destructive order, like destructive disorder, is unnecessary and undesirable.



So according to mal and omar, the curse of greyface is imprinting order = good and disorder = bad

they thought this was a false dichotomy, and had people getting all up in arms about stupid things

to counter this, they imposed a NEW fake dichotomy on top of it, so that there could be "good" order and "good" disorder.


why is creativity better than destruction? what does creativity mean, anyway? they don't go into too much detail about it.

but they do say that if you embrace the all-creative trip, then life can go back to being about play and happy romance

[LMNO]

Doktor Alphapance (formerly LMNO) has a New and Improved chart of Order, Disorder, Destruction, and Creation somewhere. He should totally dig it up and post ITT.

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=5054.msg495986#msg495986

[AFK]

I can give you a good example of creative disorder:  improv music.

I was in an improv band for a number of years and that really was the whole deal.  Creating something out of nothing.  Nothing pre-written, pre-rehearsed, etc., etc.,  Everything made up on the spot including which instruments to use when. 

It was beautiful man. 

[Doktor Howl]

There is no "creative" or "destructive" disorder.

In fact, there isn't any order or disorder.

Just two sides of the coin we call "Chaos". 

[Ruby]

Interesting reads on 'growing pains' may be more simplified for those of us lacking a basic understanding.

Or, for the more physically apt, studying different styles of martial art philosophies. Kung Fu students are known to beat themselves with rods of steel to gain bone strength likened to steel.

Creative disorder usually involves venturing outside the realm of comfort that many, if not most of us are so willing to do.

[Doktor Howl]

Or, for the more physically apt, studying different styles of martial art philosophies. Kung Fu students are known to beat themselves with rods of steel to gain bone strength likened to steel.

Oh?

[Phox]

Interesting reads on 'growing pains' may be more simplified for those of us lacking a basic understanding.

Care to explain that?

Or, for the more physically apt, studying different styles of martial art philosophies. Kung Fu students are known to beat themselves with rods of steel to gain bone strength likened to steel.

Funny, I've never heard that inside a serious martial arts circle.

Creative disorder usually involves venturing outside the realm of comfort that many, if not most of us are not so willing to do.

Fixed.

This is probably the closest thing you've said to being accurate. But there is much, much more to it than that. Or not. As Doktor Howl pointed out, it's all Chaos, baby. Perfect Chaos. Yin and Yang, Hodge and Podge.

[Adios]

Or, for the more physically apt, studying different styles of martial art philosophies. Kung Fu students are known to beat themselves with rods of steel to gain bone strength likened to steel.

Oh?

Wut? i chew rocks to make my teef stronger

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

Or, for the more physically apt, studying different styles of martial art philosophies. Kung Fu students are known to beat themselves with rods of steel to gain bone strength likened to steel.

Oh?

Wut? i chew rocks to make my teef stronger

I fuck garbage disposals to make my dick harder. 

[Ruby]

Morons.

Also, as for my referencing reads on growing pains, what I have come across is the vitamin and mineral deficiencies that cause such are also not necessarily best for different parts of the brain. It isn't a field I am fluent in, obviously, but just a start was phosphate, calcium, and especially flouride. Those things negatively effect the infamous pineal gland, and, I think, from suggestive reads could also trigger premature aging genes within some.

It is creative disorder for the fact of the impossibly delicate balance that depends upon the individual.

Okay, so I am just rambling possible nonsense, but to me it is completely plausible.

[Cosine 5]

Ruby, I fail to comprehend your posts, which seem to be leading us off-topic either way (unless fucking garbage is a form of creative disorder? well, maybe), so please.... I don't know if I have the authority to tell you to do that, actually. Nevermind.

Also - thanks for the links, Cram and LMNO. The chart's helping me a lot here.

There is no "creative" or "destructive" disorder.

In fact, there isn't any order or disorder.

Just two sides of the coin we call "Chaos". 

By the way, I'm not really quite sure what Chaos is. Being formerly Taoist, I always thought that Chaos was something very much like what Taoists like to call the Tao. I always viewed this as the nature of existence, or the Way things Are. A while back, I decided that while not much could be said about this inscrutable Way, the nature of existence is creative rather than destructive. It just made sense that existence wouldn't be suicidal.

ANYWAY. So order and disorder are illusions? The Principia does say that, but unfortunately, the Machine is not an illusion, and the government is not an illusion, and the order that we live by and are trapped in is real enough, even if it is an illusion, because we act as if it is real. Thus, you can say that these things don't exist, because the concepts of them exist... (and in order to fulfill the PD's command of 'more creative disorder', I need to figure out what that is first)

I'm bringing up that argument again, like where God might not exist in objective reality, but he's real enough to have caused wars et al et al.

[Cainad (dec.)]

By the way, I'm not really quite sure what Chaos is. Being formerly Taoist, I always thought that Chaos was something very much like what Taoists like to call the Tao. I always viewed this as the nature of existence, or the Way things Are. A while back, I decided that while not much could be said about this inscrutable Way, the nature of existence is creative rather than destructive. It just made sense that existence wouldn't be suicidal.

Sez who? One could point to the phenomenon of entropy to refute that.

ANYWAY. So order and disorder are illusions? The Principia does say that, but unfortunately, the Machine is not an illusion, and the government is not an illusion, and the order that we live by and are trapped in is real enough, even if it is an illusion, because we act as if it is real. Thus, you can say that these things don't exist, because the concepts of them exist... (and in order to fulfill the PD's command of 'more creative disorder', I need to figure out what that is first)

I'm bringing up that argument again, like where God might not exist in objective reality, but he's real enough to have caused wars et al et al.

Order and Disorder are illusions because pretty much all dichotomies are illusions. They may be useful for navigating our way through life, but they're still only concepts.

Consider Creation and Destruction. If a star goes nova, is that Destructive because the star ceased to be a star, or is it Creative because the matter and energy that were once arranged in what we call a star became a nebula? Either answer is true depending on how you look at it.

Consider Order and Disorder. Is a Jackson Pollock painting a Disorderly mess of colors and shapes, or is there a kind of Order to it that reflects the meaning and intent behind the splatters of color?

The Principia says these things are illusions; it does not say we should disregard or ignore them and go around gibbering like a bunch of loons about how "All is Chaos, everything is an illusion!" Just because something is an illusion doesn't mean it's meaningless or dismissible. It just means it's not as Really Real For (Obective) Realness as one might assume it is.


As for what Chaos "is", I've said it above. It's the Whole Thing. All of it.

Every possibility, every happening. Every non-possibility, every non-happening.

Every thing. Even that thing.

Yes, that too.


You could compare it to the Tao, but the flaw there would be that Taoist thought, as far as I am aware, considers the division of Everything into Yin and Yang to be Really Real for Realness, i.e., the universe would have those dichotomous concepts even if humans weren't around to label them as such.



All of those "Order", "Disorder", "Creation", and "Destruction" things are tools human brains invented so we wouldn't confuse ourselves. Chaos came first.

[Cosine 5]

Thank you for the explanations! And sorry for being so slow. I think I just understood Discordianism, finally.
All dichotomies are illusions. The only thing that's real is Chaos... which is Everything, untouched by our minds.
This makes me happier. Less confused, but also more confused at the same time without any grids to hang on to.

Quex,
Figured it Out Somewhat.

[Cramulus]

you might dig this:

http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Sacred_Chao_Te_Ching


Chapter 25
There is Something that exists,
beyond the Illusions of Order and Disorder.
It is all things, and unknowable in full.
We only see small parts of It,
but are convinced what we see is the entire Universe.

For lack of a better name, I call It "Chaos".
At dinner parties, I claim It is everything Possible and Impossible.
When asked why not call It "god",
I point out that their head is too fucking small.

Because we create the Illusions in which we live,
we are more creative than Chaos.
Because we believe in the Illusions we create,
our heads are too fucking small.
In this way, we reflect our creations.



Chapter 46
When people understand Chaos,
they live their lives as they please.
When people misunderstand Chaos,
the Machine™ grinds them into grist.

The greatest cause of Disorder is Order.
The greatest motivator of Order is Disorder.
Whoever can embrace both will see for miles.



Chapter 55
Those who understand Chaos can pierce any illusion.
Disorder does not trouble them.
Order does not placate them.
They see around the bars of their Cell,
and always look just a little bit further.
They can freely create, knowing no boundaries,
but color inside the lines when they must.
They can wear ideas like masks, but remove them at will,
and are not bound by chains of Faith.
To know Chaos is to always be in doubt.
To know doubt is to always seek an answer.

To try and force Truth is dangerous.
To decide you're right before getting the facts is foolish;
The first errant bit of evidence will cause a collapse.
Whatever is monolithic will fall.




Chapter 62
Chaos is contained in all things.
It hides in the Illusions of Order and Disorder.
Solid walls can break.
Scattered stones can tell a story.
Why should we choose one over the other?

So when Authority tightens its fists
one must learn to slip through the fingers.
When the Philosopher rambles,
hit him with a barstool from this universe.

How do the wise spags embrace Chaos?
They do not favor Order or Disorder.
Both Order and Disorder are windows.
Behind them lies Chaos.




Chapter 67
Chaos is quick to dispel fanatics.

When you have no certainty
you cannot remain willfully blind.

Uncertainty has a momentum of its own.
It gives rise to curiosity,
which brings about questions,
which births uncertainty.

Certainty un-tempered by doubt,
direction without freedom,
carelessness without humor:
These things are heavy like Greyface's luggage.

Fuck what you "know" about Chaos.




Chapter 76
When born, we are close to Chaos.
We simply experience, we have no names.
Growing up, we learn how to make patterns
and we are taught about Order and Disorder.
Believing this to be reality,
our minds and bodies become rigid,
rather than flexible.
And so are easy to break.

[Bu🤠ns]

OP:

1. Purse your lips.
2. Make a "BRRRR" sound.
3. Extend your index finger.
4. Begin to wiggle it back and forth.
5. Apply your wiggling finger to your lips.

Consider creative disorder as nonsense and creative order as words.  Obviously you must have one with the other.  

I'll take a cue from RWHN and his improv and refer to scat singing.  ABOODEEDADILDDLEBOPBOPZINGAZANADING.  In some way you can see how this jovial nonsense doesn't really point anything other than itself.  It's like an expression of  pure exuberance and delight. It's SWINGIN MAN!  

Or remember when you were a child and you'd bust your ass climbing that huge snow covered hill and when you get to the top, you mount your sled, push back and

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!1

Words, on the other hand, only refer to more words endlessly and endlessly.  They give meaning, create the grid through which you view the world and make THINGS STUFF.  They're good for convention, ya know?

As a corrective measure to this conventional 'common sense' that we're used to, consider creative disorder. Consider the world instead of something with THINGS in it, but like a piece of music or a dance or

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!1

Remember when Dante heard the choir of angels he said it sounded like the laughter of the universe.