What is creative disorder?

[Cosine 5]

you might dig this:

http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Sacred_Chao_Te_Ching

This is awesome.

[Doktor Howl]

and the government is not an illusion,

It most certainly is.  It's a social fiction.

And The Machine™ is us.  You and me.

[Adios]

and the government is not an illusion,

It most certainly is.  It's a social fiction.

And The Machine™ is us.  You and me.

IS THAT WHY I AM ALWAYS SO WELL OILED?

[Doktor Howl]

and the government is not an illusion,

It most certainly is.  It's a social fiction.

And The Machine™ is us.  You and me.

IS THAT WHY I AM ALWAYS SO WELL OILED?

No, that is more closely related to the unnatural perversions indulged in by the repressed population of Kansas.

[Adios]

and the government is not an illusion,

It most certainly is.  It's a social fiction.

And The Machine™ is us.  You and me.

IS THAT WHY I AM ALWAYS SO WELL OILED?

No, that is more closely related to the unnatural perversions indulged in by the repressed population of Kansas.

[Cosine 5]

Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?

The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.

[Telarus]

Lets go back to the source material on this whole "illusion" issue.

p49, The Sacred Chao:
----------
HERE FOLLOWS SOME PSYCHO-METAPHYSICS.
If you are not hot for philosophy, best just to skip it.

The Aneristic Principle is that of APPARENT ORDER; the Eristic Principle is that of APPARENT DISORDER. Both order and disorder are man made concepts and are artificial divisions of PURE CHAOS, which is a level deeper that is the level of distinction making.

With our concept making apparatus called "mind" we look at reality through the ideas-about-reality which our cultures give us. The ideas-about- reality are mistakenly labeled "reality" and unenlightened people are forever perplexed by the fact that other people, especially other cultures, see "reality" differently. It is only the ideas-about-reality which differ. Real (capital-T True) reality is a level deeper that is the level of concept.

We look at the world through windows on which have been drawn grids (concepts). Different philosophies use different grids.

A culture is a group of people with rather similar grids. Through a window we view chaos, and relate it to the points on our grid, and thereby understand it. The ORDER is in the GRID. That is the Aneristic Principle.

        Western philosophy is traditionally concerned with contrasting one grid with another grid, and amending grids in hopes of finding a perfect one that will account for all reality and will, hence, (say unenlightened westerners) be True. This is illusory; it is what we Erisians call the ANERISTIC ILLUSION. Some grids can be more useful than others, some more beautiful than others, some more pleasant than others, etc., but none can be more True than any other.

        DISORDER is simply unrelated information viewed through some particular grid. But, like "relation", no-relation is a concept. Male, like female, is an idea about sex. To say that male-ness is "absence of female-ness", or vice versa, is a matter of definition and metaphysically arbitrary. The artificial concept of no-relation is the ERISTIC PRINCIPLE.

        The belief that "order is true" and disorder is false or somehow wrong, is the Aneristic Illusion. To say the same of disorder, is the ERISTIC ILLUSION.

        The point is that (little-t) truth is a matter of definition relative to the grid one is using at the moment, and that (capital-T) Truth, metaphysical reality, is irrelevant to grids entirely. Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered.

        Reality is the original Rorschach.

Verily! So much for all that.
----------

The Eristic/Aneristic PRINCIPLES talk about how we use grids, and that the same 'things' can appear Ordered or Disordered when viewed through different Grids. These PRINCIPLES are Useful Fictions that allow us to differentiate some 'parts' of Reality from other 'parts', but when using these PRINCIPLES we ignore part of Reality (it is "out of scope" in relation to the parts of Reality that we are currently investigating).

The Eristic/Aneristic ILLUSIONS are when you hold the position that one Grid represents the (capitol T) Truth. These positions are USELESS FICTIONS, or as the PD says, "The belief that "order is true" and disorder is false or somehow wrong, is the Aneristic Illusion. To say the same of disorder, is the ERISTIC ILLUSION."




Did that clear some of the Confusion up?

[Doktor Howl]

Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?

The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.

Order isn't a fucking illusion.  Where do you get this stuff?

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?

The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.

Its not that order within itself is an illusion, its that the difference between order and disorder is an illusion.

Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit.

[Phox]

Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?

The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.

Its not that order within itself is an illusion, its that the difference between order and disorder is an illusion.

Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit.

Isn't that simply perspective? Order as the "true" fit is the Aneristic Illusion, and disorder as the "true" fit is the Eristic illusion, as Telarus pointed out above. But as everyone has been saying, Order and Disorder are merely flip sides of the same coin, Chaos.

tl;dr: Order and Disorder are both concepts (thus, as real as everything else), The illusion occurs when one puts one above the other as "true" or "right". It works both ways.

That clear it up for people who didn't actually read what was said?

[Bu🤠ns]

Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?

The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.

Its not that order within itself is an illusion, its that the difference between order and disorder is an illusion.

Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit.

Isn't that simply perspective? Order as the "true" fit is the Aneristic Illusion, and disorder as the "true" fit is the Eristic illusion, as Telarus pointed out above. But as everyone has been saying, Order and Disorder are merely flip sides of the same coin, Chaos.

"Reality is the original Rorschach."

So I think to answer your question, yes.

I think the implication here is that when you're no longer holding on to apparent dualities, you're free to make creative choices (some of which might be more orderly, some of which might be more disorderly) that include considerations for both order and disorder without being bound by either.

So it might be 'simply perspective' but when it comes in terms of self-limitation it seems like knowing where you make up dualistic distinctions could prove to be useful.

tl;dr: Order and Disorder are both concepts (thus, as real as everything else), The illusion occurs when one puts one above the other as "true" or "right". It works both ways.

That clear it up for people who didn't actually read what was said?

They probably should have read it then.

[Phox]

Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?

The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.

Its not that order within itself is an illusion, its that the difference between order and disorder is an illusion.

Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit.

Isn't that simply perspective? Order as the "true" fit is the Aneristic Illusion, and disorder as the "true" fit is the Eristic illusion, as Telarus pointed out above. But as everyone has been saying, Order and Disorder are merely flip sides of the same coin, Chaos.

"Reality is the original Rorschach."

So I think to answer your question, yes.

I think the implication here is that when you're no longer holding on to apparent dualities, you're free to make creative choices (some of which might be more orderly, some of which might be more disorderly) that include considerations for both order and disorder without being bound by either.

So it might be 'simply perspective' but when it comes in terms of self-limitation it seems like knowing where you make up dualistic distinctions could prove to be useful.

I should have been more clear, I was referring only to the second line of the quoted statement: "Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit".  I meant that the idea that order "fits" and disorder doesn't is a matter of perspective, and precisely where the illusion comes into the equation.

tl;dr: Order and Disorder are both concepts (thus, as real as everything else), The illusion occurs when one puts one above the other as "true" or "right". It works both ways.

That clear it up for people who didn't actually read what was said?

They probably should have read it then.

I agree.

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?

The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.

Its not that order within itself is an illusion, its that the difference between order and disorder is an illusion.

Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit.

Isn't that simply perspective? Order as the "true" fit is the Aneristic Illusion, and disorder as the "true" fit is the Eristic illusion, as Telarus pointed out above. But as everyone has been saying, Order and Disorder are merely flip sides of the same coin, Chaos.

"Reality is the original Rorschach."

So I think to answer your question, yes.

I think the implication here is that when you're no longer holding on to apparent dualities, you're free to make creative choices (some of which might be more orderly, some of which might be more disorderly) that include considerations for both order and disorder without being bound by either.

So it might be 'simply perspective' but when it comes in terms of self-limitation it seems like knowing where you make up dualistic distinctions could prove to be useful.

I should have been more clear, I was referring only to the second line of the quoted statement: "Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit".  I meant that the idea that order "fits" and disorder doesn't is a matter of perspective, and precisely where the illusion comes into the equation.
 

I should of been more clear. What I meant was this:

The Aneristic Principle is that of apparent order; the Eristic Principle is that of apparent disorder. Both order and disorder are man made concepts and are artificial divisions of pure chaos, which is a level deeper than is the level of distinction making.

With our concept-making apparatus called "the brain" we look at reality through the ideas-about-reality which our cultures give us.

The ideas-about-reality are mistakenly labeled "reality" and unenlightened people are forever perplexed by the fact that other people, especially other cultures, see "reality" differently.

It is only the ideas-about-reality which differ. Real (capital-T) True reality is a level deeper than is the level of concept.

We look at the world through windows on which have been drawn grids (concepts). Different philosophies use different grids. A culture is a group of people with rather similar grids. Through a window we view chaos, and relate it to the points on our grid, and thereby understand it. The order is in the grid. That is the Aneristic Principle.

Western philosophy is traditionally concerned with contrasting one grid with another grid, and amending grids in hopes of finding a perfect one that will account for all reality and will, hence, (say unenlightened westerners) be True. This is illusory; it is what we Erisians call the Aneristic Illusion. Some grids can be more useful than others, some more beautiful than others, some more pleasant than others, etc., but none can be more True than any other.

Disorder is simply unrelated information viewed through some particular grid. But, like "relation", no-relation is a concept. Male, like female, is an idea about sex. To say that male-ness is "absence of female-ness", or vice versa, is a matter of definition and metaphysically arbitrary. The artificial concept of no-relation is the Eristic Principle.

The belief that "order is true" and disorder is false or somehow wrong, is the Aneristic Illusion. To say the same of disorder, is the Eristic Illusion.

The point is that (little-t) truth is a matter of definition relative to the grid one is using at the moment, and that (capital-T) Truth, metaphysical reality, is irrelevant to grids entirely. Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered.

Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
—Malaclypse the Younger, Principia Discordia, Pages 00049–00050

I just decided to summarize that into one sentence. Although I did leave out the concept Eristic Illusion(to be fair its much less popular than the Aneristic illusion)

[Phox]

I just decided to summarize that into one sentence. Although I did leave out the concept Eristic Illusion(to be fair its much less popular than the Aneristic illusion)

Excessive quotation is fun, but I'm glad that's cleared up. It makes more sense now that you've explained it, but I find the Eristic Illusion to be just as valid a concern (if not moreso, considering where we are) as the Aneristic, popularity not withstanding. 

[Bu🤠ns]

Another question. If order is an illusion, then what is science?

The Universe doesn't have to follow mathematical laws, but somehow it does. And science works... it can't be an illusion.

Its not that order within itself is an illusion, its that the difference between order and disorder is an illusion.

Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit.

Isn't that simply perspective? Order as the "true" fit is the Aneristic Illusion, and disorder as the "true" fit is the Eristic illusion, as Telarus pointed out above. But as everyone has been saying, Order and Disorder are merely flip sides of the same coin, Chaos.

"Reality is the original Rorschach."

So I think to answer your question, yes.

I think the implication here is that when you're no longer holding on to apparent dualities, you're free to make creative choices (some of which might be more orderly, some of which might be more disorderly) that include considerations for both order and disorder without being bound by either.

So it might be 'simply perspective' but when it comes in terms of self-limitation it seems like knowing where you make up dualistic distinctions could prove to be useful.

I should have been more clear, I was referring only to the second line of the quoted statement: "Order is just chaos that fits within our limited understanding of reality, and disorder is chaos which does not fit".  I meant that the idea that order "fits" and disorder doesn't is a matter of perspective, and precisely where the illusion comes into the equation.

That sounds like a good observation.  Sort of like how we seem to place significance on that which is foreground in each of our 'perspectives' rather than background. Then "forget" that implicit inseparability between foreground/background and play a game with ourself that one side is somehow more 'significant'.

Which may or may not get someone into some serious trouble, but it's generally pretty funny when it does.