This is a rant most people won't give a shit about. So fucking what. And those that might have an opinion on this subject will most likely disagree with me. Again, so fucking what.
The biggest reason I hate the general western martial arts community is the rampant clichism and circle-jerking back-patting. Hurray you can translate medieval dialects of German or Italian. I mean that is fucking rad. I can barely understand modern German, and without your help I wouldn't be able to go, "dude you are fucking wrong here"
Which brings me to the next thing. Academics thinking that because they could translate some old books they are now qualified to teach martially sound interpretations of this old books. Dude, your fucking measure is wrong. Your timing is wrong. And wtf do you think you are doing cutting from guard to guard? Just an fyi, swords are metal. Metal is harder than skin. Guess which wins? Ya, the sword. You don;'t need to cut from fucking vom Tag to Alber or Nebenhut to kill someone. No really. I am sure once you cut about 12 inches into his chest from his clavicle he might not be able to fight. I'm pretty sure you can do that a blunt, never mind a sharp sword.
Oh and on that note. Test cutting. WHAT THE FUCK??? You wanted to break from EMA but now you are aping what bad JSA dojos do? Just an FYI sure it's fun, but the Japanese only did it to prove the BLADE. That is right douchebag. Test cutting is a test of the sword. Being able to cleanly cut a non-moving roll of soaking wet tatami doesn't really mean anything. Well it does. It means you are fixated on looking cool. Cuz it is fucking cool to cut shit with your fucking sword. I know this. It is. I used to love just practicing cuts. But just an FYI for you. You don't need to cleanly cut someone to fuck them up enough to make them dead. You aren't trying to fucking make a gourmet meal with exquisitely cut garnish. You are CUTTING ANOTHER PERSON INTO PIECES, or at least training as if you were going to.
Which brings me to unarmored sparring. Hey why not, I mean you are training to fight with swords, swords are sexy. Armor is expensive. So hey just use your blossfechten training with a minimum of training gear. Ya...no. You are going to start making compromises somewhere. You will start trying to pad your weapon, so it won't act like a steel blade, which matters for winding, which you practice right? So you start to add more protective gear, cuz you don't want to get crush fingers, but hey those gloves mean you don't have to the full dexterity in your hands. But hey all that can be trained around. But what's that? You don't want to bother even doing drills so you can internalize the techniques? You want to start fighting NAO? You are a douche. You one of those guys on youtube posting videos about how you understand Liechtenaurer but nothing you do matches up with anything any of the fechtbucher in that lineage ever showed. Even better, when you AREN'T 'sparring' your drills look exactly the way they "should". Ya you suck, you can't make your sparring bear more than a passing semblance to your drilling. So you are dishonest and impatient and LAZY. Just fucking drill more. It is not like your life is on the fucking line if you can't use this shit.
And Fiorites? You guys can piss off. Fiore has a lot of kick ass grappling. Everything is basically grappling in his books.
I have no idea what you're talking about for most of this, but I have to say that these guys sound like the hipsters of martial arts. So I can get why you'd have beef with them. Much sympathy.
Two words.
MAC 10.
On a more serious note few here in the US actually follow the intent behind martial arts. The philosophy that should be the foundation has been substituted by testing for the next level and by owners wanting to get you in competitions to make their name look better.
Also we tend to bastardize everything here.
I interpret that the asians have some cultural expressions that deal with "mind over matter".
Is it practical to smash a brick with your hand? Does it matter that you can cut the dummy-target hay in a straight line? What does unlighting a group of candles without hitting them with your sword even mean?
Its about a culture of technique and precision, which you seem to entirely miss the point on.
Which brings to mind the contrast between production of electronic goods between the USA and Japan:
"hey, it dont matter than 20% of our crap is useless, we can mass produce!" vs. "hey, we dont need to make as much if we do it right".
And by asians i mean the Japanese to think of it - China really took the USA production mentality to another scope.
Not so closely related, but, why do South Korean Starcraft gamers just about rape anyone that isnt asian?
Quote from: Joh'Nyx on September 06, 2010, 01:10:41 PM
I interpret that the asians have some cultural expressions that deal with "mind over matter".
Is it practical to smash a brick with your hand? Does it matter that you can cut the dummy-target hay in a straight line? What does unlighting a group of candles without hitting them with your sword even mean?
Its about a culture of technique and precision, which you seem to entirely miss the point on.
Which brings to mind the contrast between production of electronic goods between the USA and Japan:
"hey, it dont matter than 20% of our crap is useless, we can mass produce!" vs. "hey, we dont need to make as much if we do it right".
And by asians i mean the Japanese to think of it - China really took the USA production mentality to another scope.
Not so closely related, but, why do South Korean Starcraft gamers just about rape anyone that isnt asian?
Ever hear of discipline?
Surely, technique and precision are related to discipline, althought i wouldnt say they are the same thing.
I believe this is why they invented guns
Bruce Lee had the same bitch about Chinese martial arts. Too formalized, not enough emphasis on, you know, winning a fight.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 06, 2010, 05:14:28 PM
Bruce Lee had the same bitch about Chinese martial arts. Too formalized, not enough emphasis on, you know, winning a fight.
I never used martial farts in a fight. I know some, but in a really for real fight? Fuck that noise.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 06, 2010, 05:14:28 PM
Bruce Lee had the same bitch about Chinese martial arts. Too formalized, not enough emphasis on, you know, winning a fight.
I never used martial farts in a fight. I know some, but in a really for real fight? Fuck that noise.
I've known a few guys that can actually pull it off.
Of course, that means they really have no time for anything else.
Dok,
Just pistol whips people.
I've known 2 guys who could pull it off. The rest usually just look like retards while telegraphing every move 5 minutes ahead of time.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 05:49:00 PM
I've known 2 guys who could pull it off. The rest usually just look like retards while telegraphing every move 5 minutes ahead of time.
There's a good internet video where the guy does the whole Neo bit...And then DOES kick the guy's ass. :lulz:
Martial arts work for the same reason boxing does. You practice so much that you have muscle memory that lets you react by "instinct" in a fight, when most people get all fucked up from adrenaline and trying to think their way through it.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 06, 2010, 05:51:10 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 05:49:00 PM
I've known 2 guys who could pull it off. The rest usually just look like retards while telegraphing every move 5 minutes ahead of time.
There's a good internet video where the guy does the whole Neo bit...And then DOES kick the guy's ass. :lulz:
Martial arts work for the same reason boxing does. You practice so much that you have muscle memory that lets you react by "instinct" in a fight, when most people get all fucked up from adrenaline and trying to think their way through it.
Exactly, if it's a lifestyle thing with daily practice then, D/N/T.
the only time I actually used to enjoy getting in a physical confrontation when I was a bouncer was when some fool decided to bust out his "kung fu" or "taekwondo", the practical result of which was almost always that they left themselves open for a punch to the solar plexus and/or a wristlock.
I think,however, that Cudgel is referring to swordfighting rather than hand-to-hand combat. While swordfighting looks really cool when done well, it's really no match for my .380 semi-auto.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 06, 2010, 06:01:27 PM
the only time I actually used to enjoy getting in a physical confrontation when I was a bouncer was when some fool decided to bust out his "kung fu" or "taekwondo", the practical result of which was almost always that they left themselves open for a punch to the solar plexus and/or a wristlock.
I think,however, that Cudgel is referring to swordfighting rather than hand-to-hand combat. While swordfighting looks really cool when done well, it's really no match for my .380 semi-auto.
Oh! Well, I have a sword, but would drop it if a fight broke out, otherwise I might cut my damn fool head off. Or I would hide behind Suu.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 06, 2010, 06:01:27 PM
the only time I actually used to enjoy getting in a physical confrontation when I was a bouncer was when some fool decided to bust out his "kung fu" or "taekwondo", the practical result of which was almost always that they left themselves open for a punch to the solar plexus and/or a wristlock.
I think,however, that Cudgel is referring to swordfighting rather than hand-to-hand combat. While swordfighting looks really cool when done well, it's really no match for my .380 semi-auto.
I was primarily referring to the ninnies that focus exclusively on the sword, out of armor, and still look like a bunch of spastic retarded pussies. Because it's not like there were grappling arts that went along with that 'fancy' sword work, oh shit there are. But no one wants to do the wrestling, sword fighting is so much cooler.
"HOLD, now get back to opposite sides of lists." 'WTF? just because Sir Douchebag has no idea how to break my grappling move and can't fall without breakign his precious white belted ass, you are going to keep resetting the fight to be more favorable to him?" "It isn't safe"
Nevermind that too many groups practice unarmored longsword techniques, badly, in armor. "Hey guys you do know that there is an entire section devoted to that, and you aren't using it?" "Whatever man, you can't halfsword in a real fight. Besides it isn't as cool." "NOT AS COOL???"
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 06:04:19 PM
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 06, 2010, 06:01:27 PM
the only time I actually used to enjoy getting in a physical confrontation when I was a bouncer was when some fool decided to bust out his "kung fu" or "taekwondo", the practical result of which was almost always that they left themselves open for a punch to the solar plexus and/or a wristlock.
I think,however, that Cudgel is referring to swordfighting rather than hand-to-hand combat. While swordfighting looks really cool when done well, it's really no match for my .380 semi-auto.
Oh! Well, I have a sword, but would drop it if a fight broke out, otherwise I might cut my damn fool head off. Or I would hide behind Suu.
:lulz:
my thought exactly.
I present the following exchange from the night after we got back to port:
Shipmate: "You ready to go out to the bars?"
ECH: "Yup, just gotta brush my teeth and put my pocketknife back in my locker."
Shipmate: "You should probably bring it with you. We have to walk through the ghetto for a few blocks to get where we're going."
ECH: "My knife's not very good for deflecting bullets. I think I'll leave it here and show you how fast a big man can run if it comes to that."
Also, fighting with a knife when you don't know what you're doing is a REALLY bad idea. I imagine a sword is the same x10. I've got the SAS knife fighting manual and have studied it and practiced much of it, and what it taught me is that the most important part of knife-fighting is knowing how to avoid getting knifed by the other guy. 99 times out of 100 I'm going to be better off having full use of both hands in close-quarters combat.
ECH wins.
You can't lose the fight you never get into.
And that reminds me of another beef.
People who for some reason think they are going to at any moment need to use their epic sword fighting prowess in a real life or death fight. And then they use that a reasoning to move into sparring way before they are ready. "Ya um dude, chill out wait like a year of drilling and then maybe we will start free play" "No fuck you dude, I want to fight now. I am going to find someone else that really does the real shit not some fucking poser with some made of kata" "You do know that we haven't used swords in combat for over 2 centuries right?" 'fuck you dude. I want to learn the real stuff and I want it now. I have to defend my castle from invaders."
Basically, they want to spar as soon as possible because they want to fight swords, and then they end up making up techniques that only work under the controlled conditions of their sparring, instead of bothering to focus on what we know.
"Dude I just discovered a secret move?" "Oh really?" "ya one that wasn't in any of your books" "Go on" "You know just because they didn't say do this in that situation doesn't mean that they didn't" "I bet you also think that there are still WMDs in Iraq" "Fuck you dude, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 06, 2010, 06:59:06 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 06:04:19 PM
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 06, 2010, 06:01:27 PM
the only time I actually used to enjoy getting in a physical confrontation when I was a bouncer was when some fool decided to bust out his "kung fu" or "taekwondo", the practical result of which was almost always that they left themselves open for a punch to the solar plexus and/or a wristlock.
I think,however, that Cudgel is referring to swordfighting rather than hand-to-hand combat. While swordfighting looks really cool when done well, it's really no match for my .380 semi-auto.
Oh! Well, I have a sword, but would drop it if a fight broke out, otherwise I might cut my damn fool head off. Or I would hide behind Suu.
:lulz:
my thought exactly.
I present the following exchange from the night after we got back to port:
Shipmate: "You ready to go out to the bars?"
ECH: "Yup, just gotta brush my teeth and put my pocketknife back in my locker."
Shipmate: "You should probably bring it with you. We have to walk through the ghetto for a few blocks to get where we're going."
ECH: "My knife's not very good for deflecting bullets. I think I'll leave it here and show you how fast a big man can run if it comes to that."
Damn straight. Knife fighting is an art, and totally worthless against a gun.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 06, 2010, 07:15:49 PM
ECH wins.
You can't lose the fight you never get into.
And that reminds me of another beef.
People who for some reason think they are going to at any moment need to use their epic sword fighting prowess in a real life or death fight. And then they use that a reasoning to move into sparring way before they are ready. "Ya um dude, chill out wait like a year of drilling and then maybe we will start free play" "No fuck you dude, I want to fight now. I am going to find someone else that really does the real shit not some fucking poser with some made of kata" "You do know that we haven't used swords in combat for over 2 centuries right?" 'fuck you dude. I want to learn the real stuff and I want it now. I have to defend my castle from invaders."
Basically, they want to spar as soon as possible because they want to fight swords, and then they end up making up techniques that only work under the controlled conditions of their sparring, instead of bothering to focus on what we know.
"Dude I just discovered a secret move?" "Oh really?" "ya one that wasn't in any of your books" "Go on" "You know just because they didn't say do this in that situation doesn't mean that they didn't" "I bet you also think that there are still WMDs in Iraq" "Fuck you dude, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
When I was taking martial arts they always taught you not to fight, and that what you were learning was defensive. I never fully subscribed, sometimes there is no other choice, but the princpile seems to have been replaced/lost with competition dojos.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 07:31:02 PM
When I was taking martial arts they always taught you not to fight, and that what you were learning was defensive. I never fully subscribed, sometimes there is no other choice, but the princpile seems to have been replaced/lost with competition dojos.
That's my beef with the current Army combative system. They start off teaching you how to make a transition from standing to the ground. They teach you to roll around on the ground and use submission holds. You have to be willing to do level 1 to get to level 2, when they start teaching strikes, to level 3, when they had...stick fighting, to level 4 when they teach you how to do all that shit but in your full battle-rattle.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 06, 2010, 07:37:42 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 07:31:02 PM
When I was taking martial arts they always taught you not to fight, and that what you were learning was defensive. I never fully subscribed, sometimes there is no other choice, but the princpile seems to have been replaced/lost with competition dojos.
That's my beef with the current Army combative system. They start off teaching you how to make a transition from standing to the ground. They teach you to roll around on the ground and use submission holds. You have to be willing to do level 1 to get to level 2, when they start teaching strikes, to level 3, when they had...stick fighting, to level 4 when they teach you how to do all that shit but in your full battle-rattle.
At my age I will take your knees away from you. If you can't get up then you can't hurt me.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 07:31:02 PM
Quote from: Cudgel on September 06, 2010, 07:15:49 PM
ECH wins.
You can't lose the fight you never get into.
And that reminds me of another beef.
People who for some reason think they are going to at any moment need to use their epic sword fighting prowess in a real life or death fight. And then they use that a reasoning to move into sparring way before they are ready. "Ya um dude, chill out wait like a year of drilling and then maybe we will start free play" "No fuck you dude, I want to fight now. I am going to find someone else that really does the real shit not some fucking poser with some made of kata" "You do know that we haven't used swords in combat for over 2 centuries right?" 'fuck you dude. I want to learn the real stuff and I want it now. I have to defend my castle from invaders."
Basically, they want to spar as soon as possible because they want to fight swords, and then they end up making up techniques that only work under the controlled conditions of their sparring, instead of bothering to focus on what we know.
"Dude I just discovered a secret move?" "Oh really?" "ya one that wasn't in any of your books" "Go on" "You know just because they didn't say do this in that situation doesn't mean that they didn't" "I bet you also think that there are still WMDs in Iraq" "Fuck you dude, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
When I was taking martial arts they always taught you not to fight, and that what you were learning was defensive. I never fully subscribed, sometimes there is no other choice, but the princpile seems to have been replaced/lost with competition dojos.
This is one of the reasons I really liked Tai Chi Chuan. I was instructed to avoid a fight if at all possible, to remove oneself from danger, to keep a fight from happening in the first place. I was also taught that if it came to a fight, go straight for the neck, the eyes, the solar plexus, the groin, and any other easily damaged part. End it as soon as possible, break an elbow if needed, but end it. Tai Chi is /dirty/ fighting, and dirty fighting is the only way to fight if you have to.
This is my form of martial arts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZwuTo7zKM8
Cobb's Traverse
Retreating indefinitely (running away, sometimes called the "ninth parry").
Quote from: Kai on September 06, 2010, 08:08:24 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 07:31:02 PM
Quote from: Cudgel on September 06, 2010, 07:15:49 PM
ECH wins.
You can't lose the fight you never get into.
And that reminds me of another beef.
People who for some reason think they are going to at any moment need to use their epic sword fighting prowess in a real life or death fight. And then they use that a reasoning to move into sparring way before they are ready. "Ya um dude, chill out wait like a year of drilling and then maybe we will start free play" "No fuck you dude, I want to fight now. I am going to find someone else that really does the real shit not some fucking poser with some made of kata" "You do know that we haven't used swords in combat for over 2 centuries right?" 'fuck you dude. I want to learn the real stuff and I want it now. I have to defend my castle from invaders."
Basically, they want to spar as soon as possible because they want to fight swords, and then they end up making up techniques that only work under the controlled conditions of their sparring, instead of bothering to focus on what we know.
"Dude I just discovered a secret move?" "Oh really?" "ya one that wasn't in any of your books" "Go on" "You know just because they didn't say do this in that situation doesn't mean that they didn't" "I bet you also think that there are still WMDs in Iraq" "Fuck you dude, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
When I was taking martial arts they always taught you not to fight, and that what you were learning was defensive. I never fully subscribed, sometimes there is no other choice, but the princpile seems to have been replaced/lost with competition dojos.
This is one of the reasons I really liked Tai Chi Chuan. I was instructed to avoid a fight if at all possible, to remove oneself from danger, to keep a fight from happening in the first place. I was also taught that if it came to a fight, go straight for the neck, the eyes, the solar plexus, the groin, and any other easily damaged part. End it as soon as possible, break an elbow if needed, but end it. Tai Chi is /dirty/ fighting, and dirty fighting is the only way to fight if you have to.
That's how I feel about it. I've gained an erroneous reputation for being able to kick anyone's ass, when the reality is that I'm just really good at NOT getting my ass kicked (also at looking scary enough to prevent a confrontation in the first place, which is an incredibly effective technique if you can pull it off). Why throw a punch when a wristlock or armbar is infinitely more effective? And if I do have to strike, I'm going for the instep, knee, or clavicle first. I want the advantage of having more usable limbs than the other guy. A fight that devolves into a swinging melee is a good way to get hurt.
Quote from: Kai on September 06, 2010, 08:08:24 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 07:31:02 PM
Quote from: Cudgel on September 06, 2010, 07:15:49 PM
ECH wins.
You can't lose the fight you never get into.
And that reminds me of another beef.
People who for some reason think they are going to at any moment need to use their epic sword fighting prowess in a real life or death fight. And then they use that a reasoning to move into sparring way before they are ready. "Ya um dude, chill out wait like a year of drilling and then maybe we will start free play" "No fuck you dude, I want to fight now. I am going to find someone else that really does the real shit not some fucking poser with some made of kata" "You do know that we haven't used swords in combat for over 2 centuries right?" 'fuck you dude. I want to learn the real stuff and I want it now. I have to defend my castle from invaders."
Basically, they want to spar as soon as possible because they want to fight swords, and then they end up making up techniques that only work under the controlled conditions of their sparring, instead of bothering to focus on what we know.
"Dude I just discovered a secret move?" "Oh really?" "ya one that wasn't in any of your books" "Go on" "You know just because they didn't say do this in that situation doesn't mean that they didn't" "I bet you also think that there are still WMDs in Iraq" "Fuck you dude, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
When I was taking martial arts they always taught you not to fight, and that what you were learning was defensive. I never fully subscribed, sometimes there is no other choice, but the princpile seems to have been replaced/lost with competition dojos.
This is one of the reasons I really liked Tai Chi Chuan. I was instructed to avoid a fight if at all possible, to remove oneself from danger, to keep a fight from happening in the first place. I was also taught that if it came to a fight, go straight for the neck, the eyes, the solar plexus, the groin, and any other easily damaged part. End it as soon as possible, break an elbow if needed, but end it. Tai Chi is /dirty/ fighting, and dirty fighting is the only way to fight if you have to.
I'd be careful with that advice, actually knowing how to fight is a good way to get 'self defense' thrown out by the judge (this actually happened to me, and I didn't even cause any lasting damage).
Half brick in a sock-fu. Failing that, use secret technique: fist of the "avert gaze and run away".
Quote from: Sigmatic on September 06, 2010, 10:20:26 PM
Half brick in a sock-fu. Failing that, use secret technique: fist of the "avert gaze and run away".
(http://i36.tinypic.com/j808qt.jpg)
If you can take the hot linked enema, then you can cast the first image macro.
[translation: no image]
Quote from: Requia ☣ on September 06, 2010, 09:49:28 PM
Quote from: Kai on September 06, 2010, 08:08:24 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 07:31:02 PM
Quote from: Cudgel on September 06, 2010, 07:15:49 PM
ECH wins.
You can't lose the fight you never get into.
And that reminds me of another beef.
People who for some reason think they are going to at any moment need to use their epic sword fighting prowess in a real life or death fight. And then they use that a reasoning to move into sparring way before they are ready. "Ya um dude, chill out wait like a year of drilling and then maybe we will start free play" "No fuck you dude, I want to fight now. I am going to find someone else that really does the real shit not some fucking poser with some made of kata" "You do know that we haven't used swords in combat for over 2 centuries right?" 'fuck you dude. I want to learn the real stuff and I want it now. I have to defend my castle from invaders."
Basically, they want to spar as soon as possible because they want to fight swords, and then they end up making up techniques that only work under the controlled conditions of their sparring, instead of bothering to focus on what we know.
"Dude I just discovered a secret move?" "Oh really?" "ya one that wasn't in any of your books" "Go on" "You know just because they didn't say do this in that situation doesn't mean that they didn't" "I bet you also think that there are still WMDs in Iraq" "Fuck you dude, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
When I was taking martial arts they always taught you not to fight, and that what you were learning was defensive. I never fully subscribed, sometimes there is no other choice, but the princpile seems to have been replaced/lost with competition dojos.
This is one of the reasons I really liked Tai Chi Chuan. I was instructed to avoid a fight if at all possible, to remove oneself from danger, to keep a fight from happening in the first place. I was also taught that if it came to a fight, go straight for the neck, the eyes, the solar plexus, the groin, and any other easily damaged part. End it as soon as possible, break an elbow if needed, but end it. Tai Chi is /dirty/ fighting, and dirty fighting is the only way to fight if you have to.
I'd be careful with that advice, actually knowing how to fight is a good way to get 'self defense' thrown out by the judge (this actually happened to me, and I didn't even cause any lasting damage).
Who's gonna believe that little scrawny me would pick a fight?
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 06, 2010, 09:02:30 PM
Quote from: Kai on September 06, 2010, 08:08:24 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 07:31:02 PM
Quote from: Cudgel on September 06, 2010, 07:15:49 PM
ECH wins.
You can't lose the fight you never get into.
And that reminds me of another beef.
People who for some reason think they are going to at any moment need to use their epic sword fighting prowess in a real life or death fight. And then they use that a reasoning to move into sparring way before they are ready. "Ya um dude, chill out wait like a year of drilling and then maybe we will start free play" "No fuck you dude, I want to fight now. I am going to find someone else that really does the real shit not some fucking poser with some made of kata" "You do know that we haven't used swords in combat for over 2 centuries right?" 'fuck you dude. I want to learn the real stuff and I want it now. I have to defend my castle from invaders."
Basically, they want to spar as soon as possible because they want to fight swords, and then they end up making up techniques that only work under the controlled conditions of their sparring, instead of bothering to focus on what we know.
"Dude I just discovered a secret move?" "Oh really?" "ya one that wasn't in any of your books" "Go on" "You know just because they didn't say do this in that situation doesn't mean that they didn't" "I bet you also think that there are still WMDs in Iraq" "Fuck you dude, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
When I was taking martial arts they always taught you not to fight, and that what you were learning was defensive. I never fully subscribed, sometimes there is no other choice, but the princpile seems to have been replaced/lost with competition dojos.
This is one of the reasons I really liked Tai Chi Chuan. I was instructed to avoid a fight if at all possible, to remove oneself from danger, to keep a fight from happening in the first place. I was also taught that if it came to a fight, go straight for the neck, the eyes, the solar plexus, the groin, and any other easily damaged part. End it as soon as possible, break an elbow if needed, but end it. Tai Chi is /dirty/ fighting, and dirty fighting is the only way to fight if you have to.
That's how I feel about it. I've gained an erroneous reputation for being able to kick anyone's ass, when the reality is that I'm just really good at NOT getting my ass kicked (also at looking scary enough to prevent a confrontation in the first place, which is an incredibly effective technique if you can pull it off). Why throw a punch when a wristlock or armbar is infinitely more effective? And if I do have to strike, I'm going for the instep, knee, or clavicle first. I want the advantage of having more usable limbs than the other guy. A fight that devolves into a swinging melee is a good way to get hurt.
Right, instep and knee are two other good ones. Especially if the knee is unbent and not braced. It's not meant to go that direction so it's pretty weak if pushed that way. Same with the elbow. I want that person incapacitated long enough for other people to jump in and help or for me to get away.
At some point, somebody got the idea that fighting was a way of looking cool rather than a way of incapacitating or killing someone who is trying to incapacitate or kill you as quickly as possible.
Quote from: Kai on September 06, 2010, 11:00:06 PM
At some point, somebody got the idea that fighting was a way of looking cool rather than a way of incapacitating or killing someone who is trying to incapacitate or kill you as quickly as possible.
As long as naked apes have been fighting, there have been naked apes making up stuff that looks cool to impress other naked apes.
I know a guy who got his ideas about fighting from Japanese RPGs. He tried to fight me once. I didn't really fight back, and I had my hands in my pockets, but he still didn't manage to hurt me. At all.
He likes to brag about his fighting skills.
Quote from: Doktor Plague on September 07, 2010, 12:03:28 AM
I know a guy who got his ideas about fighting from Japanese RPGs. He tried to fight me once. I didn't really fight back, and I had my hands in my pockets, but he still didn't manage to hurt me. At all.
He likes to brag about his fighting skills.
I got a cousin who out ranks me in a style of TKD. Like massively outranks me. As in I got to orange belt and realized how bullshit it was and she has a red belt with a black-strip or something like that. She want to
touch spar. She didn't want to ever again after that. This was in 03 I think. I think it might have been rather unpleasant for her to not even be able to get close enough to tag me.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 07, 2010, 12:11:24 AM
Quote from: Doktor Plague on September 07, 2010, 12:03:28 AM
I know a guy who got his ideas about fighting from Japanese RPGs. He tried to fight me once. I didn't really fight back, and I had my hands in my pockets, but he still didn't manage to hurt me. At all.
He likes to brag about his fighting skills.
I got a cousin who out ranks me in a style of TKD. Like massively outranks me. As in I got to orange belt and realized how bullshit it was and she has a red belt with a black-strip or something like that. She want to touch spar. She didn't want to ever again after that. This was in 03 I think. I think it might have been rather unpleasant for her to not even be able to get close enough to tag me.
Meh. Belt degrees mean you know patterns.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 07, 2010, 12:41:34 AM
Meh. Belt degrees mean you know patterns.
Yup, specially with that particular style.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 07, 2010, 12:43:45 AM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 07, 2010, 12:41:34 AM
Meh. Belt degrees mean you know patterns.
Yup, specially with that particular style.
I refused to test, but was only allowed to spar with high red or above. I remained a white belt because I am so innocent.
.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 07, 2010, 12:41:34 AM
Meh. Belt degrees mean you know patterns.
Colored belt degrees just means you showed up when I did TKD, the only belts they did real testing for were black belts (which is why you see so many black stripes)
One of the other things I liked about Tai Chi Chuan is there was none of these silly belts and grades. Sure, people were positioned on the floor for warmups by age and experience, but there was really only two ranks, master and student. The master was marked by his uniform, not because he had purchased anything special, but because all the dirtying and subsequent washing over the years had turned it to a silver gray. He was also marked by that quality that demands attention, and close listening. Not that he ever spoke loudly. In fact, he was quiet mannered, and about 5 feet tall; I think he was 65 or older.
He could also knock a long time student off his feet with a twist of his arm, even when this big burly guy was coming at him hard. I was impressed, he was impressive by that same quality that made people listen closely. A person would know when they became a master, because their uniform would be just as gray from use. No need for belts.
This is why instead of joining a Dojo I joined a gun club.
The best part about studying a Western martial art is the realization that you'll never know it all anyway. The texts that we study from are treatises, not manuals, if you will, for the system of that master, Talhoffer, Fiore, Marozzo, et al. There was tons of information left out, and you can only learn so much from pictures and descriptions translated from medieval dialects or ecclesiastical Latin. Much like martial arts schools of today, they wanted your money and wanted you to study with them to learn.
They didn't have the tradition of passing down the information as in the East, and any that there was was destroyed once the firearm became common. One can only look at the treatises and fechtbuchen for so long and interpret what they can, but in the end, we know they're flawed, but they're still useful, especially when fighting sassy SCA fencers who think they're still using epee or foil. They definitely don't like anything from the 1.33 Walpurgis manuscript, in fact, GS and I were asked to STOP drilling from it when we were visiting a different academy in the area. They also really don't like Talhoffer halfswording... :mrgreen:
Quote from: Cudgel on September 06, 2010, 06:56:55 PM
I was primarily referring to the ninnies that focus exclusively on the sword, out of armor, and still look like a bunch of spastic retarded pussies. Because it's not like there were grappling arts that went along with that 'fancy' sword work, oh shit there are. But no one wants to do the wrestling, sword fighting is so much cooler.
That's insane. I admit I'm nowhere near an expert on swordfighting, but as I understand it, with the rapier and cut-and-thrust blades, a surprisingly high degree of the actual fighting involved grappling and wrestling while trying to stab the other dude in the kidney (or throat, or whatever). It's why certain rapiers were
designed to be brittle, so they could be broken on the ground and shoved into someone's vitals.
I would imagine even with larger and heavier weapons such as the longsword, using one's shield and the heavy weight of one's armour would be a key part of combat. And given people would've been wearing heavy armour back then (admittedly, armour they had trained for years to use and so could be surprisingly fast and dangerous in), falling down would be a pretty common problem, especially on a battlefield, which were hardly ideal conditions for fighting in, what with the mud, the blood, the piss, the dying people around you etc. If you couldn't manouver while on the ground, some peasant bastard was liable to slit your throat. And on top of that, wrestling and hunting were the two major activities undertaken by nobles in preparation for weapons training, so the idea they wouldn't recall or rely upon some of that in a fight is insanely ahistorical.
If you're going to historically reconstruct fighting methods, you need to go the full nine yards.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 06, 2010, 07:01:54 PM
Also, fighting with a knife when you don't know what you're doing is a REALLY bad idea. I imagine a sword is the same x10. I've got the SAS knife fighting manual and have studied it and practiced much of it, and what it taught me is that the most important part of knife-fighting is knowing how to avoid getting knifed by the other guy. 99 times out of 100 I'm going to be better off having full use of both hands in close-quarters combat.
That was exactly what I got out of the Folsom Prison Knife-Fighting book, which I suspect is a little less comprehensive than the SAS book, though it gave the necessary basics. While I'm fairly confident with a blade myself, it doesn't take a genius to figure out if you have a weapon, someone can take it off you and use it against you, and that should always factor into any decision to use one. For most fights, which are really dominance displays, a knife is an unnecessary and dangerous escalation.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 06, 2010, 07:15:49 PM
People who for some reason think they are going to at any moment need to use their epic sword fighting prowess in a real life or death fight.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? I can only think of one modern circumstance where a swordfight is even possibly likely to happen, and that's when you get accosted by The Crazy Guy Who Orders Samurai Swords Off The Internet And Then Goes Crazy And Stabs Someone (we had a spate of attacks like this in the UK a few years ago). And if you're carrying around a sword in public, in the expectation you're going to duel some crazy guy with a katana...well, that makes you A Crazy Guy With A Sword as well.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 06, 2010, 07:37:42 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 06, 2010, 07:31:02 PM
When I was taking martial arts they always taught you not to fight, and that what you were learning was defensive. I never fully subscribed, sometimes there is no other choice, but the princpile seems to have been replaced/lost with competition dojos.
That's my beef with the current Army combative system. They start off teaching you how to make a transition from standing to the ground. They teach you to roll around on the ground and use submission holds. You have to be willing to do level 1 to get to level 2, when they start teaching strikes, to level 3, when they had...stick fighting, to level 4 when they teach you how to do all that shit but in your full battle-rattle.
I mostly believe the best defense is a good offense, though there are always exceptions to this rule (being outnumbered comes to mind). In both martial arts I've done, basic attacks and blocks were the first techniques you learn, how to punch and kick essentially, and stop people trying to do the same to you. In sparring, I almost always defaulted to these basic techniques. Once or twice I did show off with a reverse turning kick or something, but that was me being an egotistical dick and showing up the other guy, nothing more.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on September 06, 2010, 09:49:28 PM
I'd be careful with that advice, actually knowing how to fight is a good way to get 'self defense' thrown out by the judge (this actually happened to me, and I didn't even cause any lasting damage).
How exactly do they confirm that? I know when I was learning at a dojang I was signed up and put on some local list for law enforcement purposes...but the last class in any martial art I've taken was three years ago now. I still practice the techniques and keep in shape on my own time...but would that be enough, in an American court, to throw out self-defence?
Quote from: Requia ☣ on September 07, 2010, 12:47:49 AM
.Quote from: Charley Brown on September 07, 2010, 12:41:34 AM
Meh. Belt degrees mean you know patterns.
Colored belt degrees just means you showed up when I did TKD, the only belts they did real testing for were black belts (which is why you see so many black stripes)
TKD has a terrible rep in this area, probably not helped by the fact the South Korean govt wants it to become the MOST POPULAR MARTIAL ART EPHAR! and so turns a blind eye to idiots teaching mall karate and giving out belts like candy.
The WTF are the ones to go to for Olympic style Tae Kwon Do, if that's your thing. The ITF are the ones to go to for a more traditional take on Tae Kwon Do (more emphasis on upper body techniques than the WTF style, though still plenty of insanely useless kicking going on. No-one is ever going to use the Upper Reverse Turning Kick in self-defense, and if they do, they deserve to have that leg broken. Fortunately, most teachers seem to realize it's just some thing on the cirriculum, and punish anyone who actually uses it in sparring sessions). Everyone else, as far as I can see, peddles pure crap.
Quote from: Cain on September 08, 2010, 11:56:25 AM
That's insane. I admit I'm nowhere near an expert on swordfighting, but as I understand it, with the rapier and cut-and-thrust blades, a surprisingly high degree of the actual fighting involved grappling and wrestling while trying to stab the other dude in the kidney (or throat, or whatever). It's why certain rapiers were designed to be brittle, so they could be broken on the ground and shoved into someone's vitals.
I would imagine even with larger and heavier weapons such as the longsword, using one's shield and the heavy weight of one's armour would be a key part of combat. And given people would've been wearing heavy armour back then (admittedly, armour they had trained for years to use and so could be surprisingly fast and dangerous in), falling down would be a pretty common problem, especially on a battlefield, which were hardly ideal conditions for fighting in, what with the mud, the blood, the piss, the dying people around you etc. If you couldn't manouver while on the ground, some peasant bastard was liable to slit your throat. And on top of that, wrestling and hunting were the two major activities undertaken by nobles in preparation for weapons training, so the idea they wouldn't recall or rely upon some of that in a fight is insanely ahistorical.
Cain, no, just no.
I'll go into detail after what ever retarded crap my platoon is doing for PT. But no, some rapiers were not designed to be brittle. Longswords are not heavy and were not used with a shield, nor used to deliver percussive blows in armor. Armor being heavy is subjective. At the height of the Age of Plate (LOL) a full harness designed for combat, as opposed to tilting in the lists, would weigh there abouts as much as I would carry for a ruck march, only since it's like clothes isn't as heavy feeling, but at the same time, yes there are a few take downs used in single armored combat that involve you falling on your opponent after you brought him to the ground.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 08, 2010, 02:11:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 08, 2010, 11:56:25 AM
That's insane. I admit I'm nowhere near an expert on swordfighting, but as I understand it, with the rapier and cut-and-thrust blades, a surprisingly high degree of the actual fighting involved grappling and wrestling while trying to stab the other dude in the kidney (or throat, or whatever). It's why certain rapiers were designed to be brittle, so they could be broken on the ground and shoved into someone's vitals.
I would imagine even with larger and heavier weapons such as the longsword, using one's shield and the heavy weight of one's armour would be a key part of combat. And given people would've been wearing heavy armour back then (admittedly, armour they had trained for years to use and so could be surprisingly fast and dangerous in), falling down would be a pretty common problem, especially on a battlefield, which were hardly ideal conditions for fighting in, what with the mud, the blood, the piss, the dying people around you etc. If you couldn't manouver while on the ground, some peasant bastard was liable to slit your throat. And on top of that, wrestling and hunting were the two major activities undertaken by nobles in preparation for weapons training, so the idea they wouldn't recall or rely upon some of that in a fight is insanely ahistorical.
Cain, no, just no.
I'll go into detail after what ever retarded crap my platoon is doing for PT. But no, some rapiers were not designed to be brittle. Longswords are not heavy and were not used with a shield, nor used to deliver percussive blows in armor. Armor being heavy is subjective. At the height of the Age of Plate (LOL) a full harness designed for combat, as opposed to tilting in the lists, would weigh there abouts as much as I would carry for a ruck march, only since it's like clothes isn't as heavy feeling, but at the same time, yes there are a few take downs used in single armored combat that involve you falling on your opponent after you brought him to the ground.
Correct Motorcycle!
Though Morazzo does say the best thing to do with a single hand sword was parry the other guys blade so you could get inside to play the close game, ala drop your weapon and take him by the throat ;-). However, he didn't say anything about breaking the blade. Some of his dagger vs unarmed 'may' provide a real world value if someone jumps you with a knife, but only if you've trained the grapples/ into muscle memory.
Agree on the armor issue too, full plate etc is OK for a guy on horse, but on the ground he's one slip/trip from being a big unmoving target.
The only thing I disagree on is your comment about not going from cut to cut in WMA. Morazzo very much pushes Posta di Dona ->Fendente->Porto Ferro->Dente di Chinghale->etc because Fendente can be voided or parried so the sword is lined up for the second attack and multiple attacks force the enemy to be defensive.
The thing that really sucks in WMA currently is that they expect to see the forms in real sparring. I may start in Posta come in with a fendente but if the opponent parries me differently that a cut down, I'm not gonna manhandle the weapon to get it into a low guard. Its like they confuse "This is a picture of a form" and "this is a fucking fight"... the real plus side to WMA for me was having some good evidence to get past the stupid 'honorable' fighting crap... punch/pommel to the face, bind and break the arm, throw them on the ground... screw that "Oh mi'Lord you dropped your sword, please pick it back up". Fuck that, you kick that butterfingers arse!
Quote from: Cudgel on September 08, 2010, 02:11:34 PM
Cain, no, just no.
I'll go into detail after what ever retarded crap my platoon is doing for PT. But no, some rapiers were not designed to be brittle. Longswords are not heavy and were not used with a shield, nor used to deliver percussive blows in armor. Armor being heavy is subjective. At the height of the Age of Plate (LOL) a full harness designed for combat, as opposed to tilting in the lists, would weigh there abouts as much as I would carry for a ruck march, only since it's like clothes isn't as heavy feeling, but at the same time, yes there are a few take downs used in single armored combat that involve you falling on your opponent after you brought him to the ground.
I said longswords were larger and heavier, not that they were heavy. And I was mentioning the use of a shield in addition to practicing in armour, not as part of it. I can't remember where I heard about the rapiers, but it wasn't an excellent source, I will admit.
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 08, 2010, 03:00:27 PM
Agree on the armor issue too, full plate etc is OK for a guy on horse, but on the ground he's one slip/trip from being a big unmoving target.
I think you misunderstood me. You + armor on the ground = no big deal. You + guy in armor falling on you suddenly = big deal, especially with some of the take downs that involve you falling on the other guys head. If you cannot get up off the ground easily when not being harassed in a full harness, you have shitty armor.
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The thing that really sucks in WMA currently is that they expect to see the forms in real sparring. I may start in Posta come in with a fendente but if the opponent parries me differently that a cut down, I'm not gonna manhandle the weapon to get it into a low guard. Its like they confuse "This is a picture of a form" and "this is a fucking fight"
If your fight doesn't look like it supposed to look and you are "manhandling the weapon" that means you are making up techniques most likely because you have not internalized the art enough. Or I could be misunderstanding you.
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... the real plus side to WMA for me was having some good evidence to get past the stupid 'honorable' fighting crap... punch/pommel to the face, bind and break the arm, throw them on the ground... screw that "Oh mi'Lord you dropped your sword, please pick it back up". Fuck that, you kick that butterfingers arse!
Yes and no. That all depends on context. In a friendly deed of arms, you most likely would, or the fight would be stopped by what ever person was hosting the deed of arms. The same would apply when things come to grips.
In a judicial duel, which is a duel to the death to settle legal disputes, no. You would kill the butterfinger.
Quote from: Cain on September 08, 2010, 03:18:42 PM
I said longswords were larger and heavier, not that they were heavy. And I was mentioning the use of a shield in addition to practicing in armour, not as part of it. I can't remember where I heard about the rapiers, but it wasn't an excellent source, I will admit.
Most rapiers weighed as much as or more than longswords.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 08, 2010, 03:30:22 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 08, 2010, 03:00:27 PM
Agree on the armor issue too, full plate etc is OK for a guy on horse, but on the ground he's one slip/trip from being a big unmoving target.
I think you misunderstood me. You + armor on the ground = no big deal. You + guy in armor falling on you suddenly = big deal, especially with some of the take downs that involve you falling on the other guys head. If you cannot get up off the ground easily when not being harassed in a full harness, you have shitty armor.
Hrmmm, I was thinking of either the War of the Roses or the Hundred Years War where guys in harness were laying on the ground until they expired (can't recall, just remember it was 1400's & English).
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The thing that really sucks in WMA currently is that they expect to see the forms in real sparring. I may start in Posta come in with a fendente but if the opponent parries me differently that a cut down, I'm not gonna manhandle the weapon to get it into a low guard. Its like they confuse "This is a picture of a form" and "this is a fucking fight"
If your fight doesn't look like it supposed to look and you are "manhandling the weapon" that means you are making up techniques most likely because you have not internalized the art enough. Or I could be misunderstanding you.
[/quote]
Maybe miscommunication... in the WMA groups I've been to they are expecting to see Posta->Fendente->Porto Ferro->Dente di Chinghali->etc in free sparring... However, if the opponent come up from Porto Ferro and parries your Fendente up and to the left, its better to recover to the reverse Posta rather than the Boars Tooth. Does that make more sense?
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... the real plus side to WMA for me was having some good evidence to get past the stupid 'honorable' fighting crap... punch/pommel to the face, bind and break the arm, throw them on the ground... screw that "Oh mi'Lord you dropped your sword, please pick it back up". Fuck that, you kick that butterfingers arse!
Yes and no. That all depends on context. In a friendly deed of arms, you most likely would, or the fight would be stopped by what ever person was hosting the deed of arms. The same would apply when things come to grips.
In a judicial duel, which is a duel to the death to settle legal disputes, no. You would kill the butterfinger.
[/quote]
Of course, in a deed of arms you're not likely to be killing your opponent, dropped weapon or not ... However, in a deed of arms it would be far more likely that either you would win, or you would be moving into Joko Stretto.... It doesn't seem that you would just back off, hang out and wait for the fool to pick up the weapon.
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Quote from: Cain on September 08, 2010, 03:18:42 PM
I said longswords were larger and heavier, not that they were heavy. And I was mentioning the use of a shield in addition to practicing in armour, not as part of it. I can't remember where I heard about the rapiers, but it wasn't an excellent source, I will admit.
Most rapiers weighed as much as or more than longswords.
Depending on the weapon, the country and the time... I mean "Rapier" is a modern term that gets applied to a number of different weapons from Spada di Roba to the English Small sword (depending on the accuracy of the individual speaking ;-) .
Also, you didn't mention it before... but people who think that turning yourself into a human sideways U = knowing Fabris should be shot.
Stop using crazy Italian man. :argh!: :argh!:
QuoteHrmmm, I was thinking of either the War of the Roses or the Hundred Years War where guys in harness were laying on the ground until they expired (can't recall, just remember it was 1400's & English).
My history is fuzzy (irony) but I think that was because of exhaustion and/or sinking in the trampled gooey mud of the battle field.
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Maybe miscommunication... in the WMA groups I've been to they are expecting to see Posta->Fendente->Porto Ferro->Dente di Chinghali->etc in free sparring... However, if the opponent come up from Porto Ferro and parries your Fendente up and to the left, its better to recover to the reverse Posta rather than the Boars Tooth. Does that make more sense?
They were expecting to see a specific sequence of techniques as detailed in a manual? Fucking tools.
QuoteDepending on the weapon, the country and the time... I mean "Rapier" is a modern term that gets applied to a number of different weapons from Spada di Roba to the English Small sword (depending on the accuracy of the individual speaking wink .
By rapier, I mean rapier. :lulz: Which does not include late period smallswords. Or any of a class of swords with narrow long blades designed for thrusting with a complex hilt.
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Also, you didn't mention it before... but people who think that turning yourself into a human sideways U = knowing Fabris should be shot.
Didn't mention it because all rapiers are merely turkey spits and not swords worthy of being called such, and as such not worthy of study. :wink:
To be honest, I can't rapier fence, I have a depth perception problem and I had my left elbow get fucked up by a LARPer who wanted to play with my shinai group in high school. Grasping a long bladed weapon and holding it out with an extended point forward guard is extremely unpleasant. Because of that I prefer earlier forms or late period backsword/military sabre.
I like swords because they are shiny.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 08, 2010, 04:01:32 PM
Stop using crazy Italian man. :argh!: :argh!:
QuoteHrmmm, I was thinking of either the War of the Roses or the Hundred Years War where guys in harness were laying on the ground until they expired (can't recall, just remember it was 1400's & English).
My history is fuzzy (irony) but I think that was because of exhaustion and/or sinking in the trampled gooey mud of the battle field.
I think that may be right... the commentary said 'Due to the weight of their armor...' but it may well have meant that the weight of armor was a key factor when dealing with the mud or exhaustion.
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Maybe miscommunication... in the WMA groups I've been to they are expecting to see Posta->Fendente->Porto Ferro->Dente di Chinghali->etc in free sparring... However, if the opponent come up from Porto Ferro and parries your Fendente up and to the left, its better to recover to the reverse Posta rather than the Boars Tooth. Does that make more sense?
They were expecting to see a specific sequence of techniques as detailed in a manual? Fucking tools.
Yeah, I understand if you want to see the sequence in drills/forms... but in actual sparring? WTF?
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QuoteDepending on the weapon, the country and the time... I mean "Rapier" is a modern term that gets applied to a number of different weapons from Spada di Roba to the English Small sword (depending on the accuracy of the individual speaking wink .
By rapier, I mean rapier. :lulz: Which does not include late period smallswords. Or any of a class of swords with narrow long blades designed for thrusting with a complex hilt.
Rapier is still a modern generic term for a whole class of weapons. Hilt style, blade sharpness, the fighting techniques etc all varied wildly from country to country across the 16th and 17th century. In fact, among the Italian schools a long slender thrusting blade with a complex hilt would fit the 'rapier' concept exactly. Swept hilts, Cup hilts etc were all in vogue across that period with long slender thrusting blades. Not as slender as the later epee etc but a 2-3 pound weapon with a ricasso just under an inch and blade length near to 40" is a pretty standard description of a "rapier".
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Also, you didn't mention it before... but people who think that turning yourself into a human sideways U = knowing Fabris should be shot.
Didn't mention it because all rapiers are merely turkey spits and not swords worthy of being called such, and as such not worthy of study. :wink:
Har Har Har ;-)
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To be honest, I can't rapier fence, I have a depth perception problem and I had my left elbow get fucked up by a LARPer who wanted to play with my shinai group in high school. Grasping a long bladed weapon and holding it out with an extended point forward guard is extremely unpleasant. Because of that I prefer earlier forms or late period backsword/military sabre.
I began with rapier and slowly moved back to earlier spada techniques and currently playing mostly with Morazzo which is obviously earlier than the forward guard of 17th century 'rapier fencing'. Though since I trained mostly di Grassi the forward guard is far more relaxed than Fabris or even Fiore which is good for me. I took a shot to the knee in a SCA rapier melee at Pennsic three years ago(torn MCL, torn miniscus, bruised bone etc) and I am glad to know a style that doesn't involve lunges, cause I can't anymore :(
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 08, 2010, 04:33:39 PM
I think that may be right... the commentary said 'Due to the weight of their armor...' but it may well have meant that the weight of armor was a key factor when dealing with the mud or exhaustion.
Who is the commentator? Lots of people get things very wrongs because they look at it through the lens the Victorians created of medieval armor.
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Yeah, I understand if you want to see the sequence in drills/forms... but in actual sparring? WTF?
Recognizable techniques, and tactics YES.
Straight out sequences....means people are idiots.
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Rapier is still a modern generic term for a whole class of weapons. Hilt style, blade sharpness, the fighting techniques etc all varied wildly from country to country across the 16th and 17th century. In fact, among the Italian schools a long slender thrusting blade with a complex hilt would fit the 'rapier' concept exactly. Swept hilts, Cup hilts etc were all in vogue across that period with long slender thrusting blades. Not as slender as the later epee etc but a 2-3 pound weapon with a ricasso just under an inch and blade length near to 40" is a pretty standard description of a "rapier".
That is more or less what I meant. :D
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Didn't mention it because all rapiers are merely turkey spits and not swords worthy of being called such, and as such not worthy of study. :wink:
Har Har Har ;-)
Admit it. It is true. You just wave around a giant bird spit practicing your culinary skills on imaginary chickens. :lol:
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I began with rapier and slowly moved back to earlier spada techniques and currently playing mostly with Morazzo which is obviously earlier than the forward guard of 17th century 'rapier fencing'. Though since I trained mostly di Grassi the forward guard is far more relaxed than Fabris or even Fiore which is good for me. I took a shot to the knee in a SCA rapier melee at Pennsic three years ago(torn MCL, torn miniscus, bruised bone etc) and I am glad to know a style that doesn't involve lunges, cause I can't anymore :(
And people say rapier fencers are a bunch of wire weenies.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 09, 2010, 02:15:35 AM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 08, 2010, 04:33:39 PM
I think that may be right... the commentary said 'Due to the weight of their armor...' but it may well have meant that the weight of armor was a key factor when dealing with the mud or exhaustion.
Who is the commentator? Lots of people get things very wrongs because they look at it through the lens the Victorians created of medieval armor.
Yeah I know... I think I read that bit in "History of Wales 14something or other - 16somethingor other" (like that title? ;-) )
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Yeah, I understand if you want to see the sequence in drills/forms... but in actual sparring? WTF?
Recognizable techniques, and tactics YES.
Straight out sequences....means people are idiots.
Exactly!
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Rapier is still a modern generic term for a whole class of weapons. Hilt style, blade sharpness, the fighting techniques etc all varied wildly from country to country across the 16th and 17th century. In fact, among the Italian schools a long slender thrusting blade with a complex hilt would fit the 'rapier' concept exactly. Swept hilts, Cup hilts etc were all in vogue across that period with long slender thrusting blades. Not as slender as the later epee etc but a 2-3 pound weapon with a ricasso just under an inch and blade length near to 40" is a pretty standard description of a "rapier".
That is more or less what I meant. :D
Ah, well very good then we are in agreement ;-) Though personally I still find the slightly earlier weapon style far superior (spada di longa/spada di lato/espada ropera) ie the cut and thrust style as opposed to the focused thrust of the later rapier style.
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Didn't mention it because all rapiers are merely turkey spits and not swords worthy of being called such, and as such not worthy of study. :wink:
Har Har Har ;-)
Admit it. It is true. You just wave around a giant bird spit practicing your culinary skills on imaginary chickens. :lol:
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I began with rapier and slowly moved back to earlier spada techniques and currently playing mostly with Morazzo which is obviously earlier than the forward guard of 17th century 'rapier fencing'. Though since I trained mostly di Grassi the forward guard is far more relaxed than Fabris or even Fiore which is good for me. I took a shot to the knee in a SCA rapier melee at Pennsic three years ago(torn MCL, torn miniscus, bruised bone etc) and I am glad to know a style that doesn't involve lunges, cause I can't anymore :(
And people say rapier fencers are a bunch of wire weenies.
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HA! To be fair that injury was due to an opponent being a complete prick and throwing a blind shot around a corner. He was aiming for the guy on the other side of me and didn't realize I was there... it never should have happened.
However, I have seen bruises in the fencing lists that rivaled some of the best smacks the armored guys have shown off ;-)
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 09, 2010, 04:42:58 PM
Ah, well very good then we are in agreement ;-) Though personally I still find the slightly earlier weapon style far superior (spada di longa/spada di lato/espada ropera) ie the cut and thrust style as opposed to the focused thrust of the later rapier style.
Hence the bird spit commentary.
Also,
Quote from: George SilverThat there is no fight perfect without both blow and thrust
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HA! To be fair that injury was due to an opponent being a complete prick and throwing a blind shot around a corner. He was aiming for the guy on the other side of me and didn't realize I was there... it never should have happened.
However, I have seen bruises in the fencing lists that rivaled some of the best smacks the armored guys have shown off ;-)
Still it does show up much force a flexible rapier with a bird blunt on the tip can deliver.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 09, 2010, 04:51:01 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 09, 2010, 04:42:58 PM
Ah, well very good then we are in agreement ;-) Though personally I still find the slightly earlier weapon style far superior (spada di longa/spada di lato/espada ropera) ie the cut and thrust style as opposed to the focused thrust of the later rapier style.
Hence the bird spit commentary.
Also,
Quote from: George SilverThat there is no fight perfect without both blow and thrust
Yeah, Silver gets a lot of flack, but I really dig some of his stuff.
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HA! To be fair that injury was due to an opponent being a complete prick and throwing a blind shot around a corner. He was aiming for the guy on the other side of me and didn't realize I was there... it never should have happened.
However, I have seen bruises in the fencing lists that rivaled some of the best smacks the armored guys have shown off ;-)
Still it does show up much force a flexible rapier with a bird blunt on the tip can deliver.
True enough! Doesn't hurt that it was an Easterner on the other side of the weapon...
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 09, 2010, 06:39:53 PM
Quote from: Cudgel on September 09, 2010, 04:51:01 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 09, 2010, 04:42:58 PM
Ah, well very good then we are in agreement ;-) Though personally I still find the slightly earlier weapon style far superior (spada di longa/spada di lato/espada ropera) ie the cut and thrust style as opposed to the focused thrust of the later rapier style.
Hence the bird spit commentary.
Also,
Quote from: George SilverThat there is no fight perfect without both blow and thrust
Yeah, Silver gets a lot of flack, but I really dig some of his stuff.
Wait what....people don't like Silver?
QuoteQuote
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HA! To be fair that injury was due to an opponent being a complete prick and throwing a blind shot around a corner. He was aiming for the guy on the other side of me and didn't realize I was there... it never should have happened.
However, I have seen bruises in the fencing lists that rivaled some of the best smacks the armored guys have shown off ;-)
Still it does show up much force a flexible rapier with a bird blunt on the tip can deliver.
True enough! Doesn't hurt that it was an Easterner on the other side of the weapon...
At one point I knew what that meant, the East is known for being very very positive pressure in rapier?
So I don't know anything about WMA, but apparently Neal Stephenson does. (Must have got into it while writing the Baroque Trilogy)
Anyway, he's writing some kind of collaborative internet novel based on a lot of WMA swordfighting stuff called the Mongoliad (http://mongoliad.com/).
There's just one scene up at the moment, and it's a fight scene (http://mongoliad.com/contents/29). So I figured you guys might like it.
Quote from: Igor on September 09, 2010, 07:01:00 PM
So I don't know anything about WMA, but apparently Neal Stephenson does. (Must have got into it while writing the Baroque Trilogy)
Anyway, he's writing some kind of collaborative internet novel based on a lot of WMA swordfighting stuff called the Mongoliad (http://mongoliad.com/).
There's just one scene up at the moment, and it's a fight scene (http://mongoliad.com/contents/29). So I figured you guys might like it.
:|
Some dude in a
partial plate transitional harness fighting what sounds like a samurai in armor using
bloßfechten techniques in a fight that is presumably to the death.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 09, 2010, 06:45:24 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 09, 2010, 06:39:53 PM
Quote from: Cudgel on September 09, 2010, 04:51:01 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 09, 2010, 04:42:58 PM
Ah, well very good then we are in agreement ;-) Though personally I still find the slightly earlier weapon style far superior (spada di longa/spada di lato/espada ropera) ie the cut and thrust style as opposed to the focused thrust of the later rapier style.
Hence the bird spit commentary.
Also,
Quote from: George SilverThat there is no fight perfect without both blow and thrust
Yeah, Silver gets a lot of flack, but I really dig some of his stuff.
Wait what....people don't like Silver?
I think it depends... Silver was pretty dismissive of many of the European styles, so I think there's a bit of offense taken by those that are focused on a specific school from the Continent ;-)
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HA! To be fair that injury was due to an opponent being a complete prick and throwing a blind shot around a corner. He was aiming for the guy on the other side of me and didn't realize I was there... it never should have happened.
However, I have seen bruises in the fencing lists that rivaled some of the best smacks the armored guys have shown off ;-)
Still it does show up much force a flexible rapier with a bird blunt on the tip can deliver.
True enough! Doesn't hurt that it was an Easterner on the other side of the weapon...
At one point I knew what that meant, the East is known for being very very positive pressure in rapier?
[/quote]
I wouldn't say its necessarily The East... but once competition at Pennsic starts it seems that some of them tend to be more focused on winning the bout, than winning it safely.
Not counting Suu and the General, of course :)
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 09, 2010, 07:17:53 PM
I think it depends... Silver was pretty dismissive of many of the European styles, so I think there's a bit of offense taken by those that are focused on a specific school from the Continent ;-)
The irony about Silver's giant rant in book form is the things he hated about rapier fencing are the things that all those books on rapier fencing say don't do.
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I wouldn't say its necessarily The East... but once competition at Pennsic starts it seems that some of them tend to be more focused on winning the bout, than winning it safely.
Not counting Suu and the General, of course :)
That is why I was never a big participant in tournaments when I was active in the SCA. I am more concerned with the Art than winning. Would rather lose a tournament than injure someone, especially since the SCA is supposed to be one big happy family of outcasts from Mundania.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 09, 2010, 07:22:23 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 09, 2010, 07:17:53 PM
I think it depends... Silver was pretty dismissive of many of the European styles, so I think there's a bit of offense taken by those that are focused on a specific school from the Continent ;-)
The irony about Silver's giant rant in book form is the things he hated about rapier fencing are the things that all those books on rapier fencing say don't do.
Quote
I wouldn't say its necessarily The East... but once competition at Pennsic starts it seems that some of them tend to be more focused on winning the bout, than winning it safely.
Not counting Suu and the General, of course :)
That is why I was never a big participant in tournaments when I was active in the SCA. I am more concerned with the Art than winning. Would rather lose a tournament than injure someone, especially since the SCA is supposed to be one big happy family of outcasts from Mundania.
I find that to be the case 99 events out of 100, but for some reason Pennsic in the last few years has lead to all sorts of calibration issues. Maybe its just my perception but I think it happened around the time that Rapier began to get their own war points. I know that both the Middle and East pushed for Armored combatants to take up rapier so they could be fielded for the rapier war point melees and some of the issues I've seen as a marshal appear to be things that are 100% cool for armored and 100% dangerous for rapier.
Two years ago I called hold on a guy that butt rapped an opponent. I mean that's not even a blow that would count for damage, but it definitely caused the guy some pain. Myself, I've sworn off of the fort melee at Pennsic which seems to be the most problematic (jamming 100 people in a gate scenario with actual steel is a high risk of turning messy). I haven't fought at Pennsic since my injury and next year I may just stick with tournaments and 1/1 sparring.
Though, I have been taking the WMA classes which have been pretty damned good. Last year I took a two week course on Morazzo longsword and Joko Stretto by Scott from Darkwood Armory... very good stuff. Also a bit of horse mounted technique (they have wooden horses on wheels for practice/class stuff). I also got to take a short class in Elizabethan Boxing which was fascinating.
There seems to be both schools of WMA at Pennsic these days... a lot of the normal SCA guy who knows barely enough to be dangerous. However there are also guys like Scott Wilson and Tom Leoni are teaching some serious WMA stuff... and there's no 'sparring' only practice, discussion and drills. I was impressed.
And here is something I love about WMA, well some of them.
http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_66/7630000/7630004/2/print/DSS_Fechtbuch_9-6-2009_Rotated.pdf
Some folks in the SCA play a great game, teach, encourage and include anyone else who is interested. They're the examples I look to, and have earned the title Sir / Master / Mistress. (Few would ever claim that title that title though.)
People in the SCA, especially in the martial sports, seem to forget that they're playing a GAME. Higher percentage under those who go by "Duke"
I've a few WMA folks / groups, but they are not as much focused on the "martial" aspects, and not as big on playing with the techniques, or seeing how and when they work at speed. I've also met a few folks who are energetic as hell and a lot of fun to play with.
Quote from: Cain on September 08, 2010, 12:21:17 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on September 07, 2010, 12:47:49 AM
.Quote from: Charley Brown on September 07, 2010, 12:41:34 AM
Meh. Belt degrees mean you know patterns.
Colored belt degrees just means you showed up when I did TKD, the only belts they did real testing for were black belts (which is why you see so many black stripes)
TKD has a terrible rep in this area, probably not helped by the fact the South Korean govt wants it to become the MOST POPULAR MARTIAL ART EPHAR! and so turns a blind eye to idiots teaching mall karate and giving out belts like candy.
The WTF are the ones to go to for Olympic style Tae Kwon Do, if that's your thing. The ITF are the ones to go to for a more traditional take on Tae Kwon Do (more emphasis on upper body techniques than the WTF style, though still plenty of insanely useless kicking going on. No-one is ever going to use the Upper Reverse Turning Kick in self-defense, and if they do, they deserve to have that leg broken. Fortunately, most teachers seem to realize it's just some thing on the cirriculum, and punish anyone who actually uses it in sparring sessions). Everyone else, as far as I can see, peddles pure crap.
Colored belts were an excuse for my instructor to beat the shit out of me even more, I even failed my blue stripe test. I hate that buy-a-belt shit that's going on now. It took me 8 years to get my damn black belt in TaeKwonDo, not 3. AND I went to a primarily WTF school (though we did a fair share of ITF stuff).
I took about five or six lessons of Ju-Jitsu a little while ago, then I had to take a break cause it became too stressful for me (stupid fucking burnout, I was actually hyperventilating near the end of the last two lessons).
But I did learn that backwards turnaround kick (whatever it was called), and it was surprisingly powerful. Something in the way you position your legs and tendons (I think) that causes some kind of spring-action to occur and I hit the sparring cushion with a crapload of power.
Of course, not a hair on my head thinking about using that in any sort of real fight, well, not without a shitload of further practice anyway (and even then), cause basically you're spinning around and that'll leave you open to all sorts of nasty shit if your opponent isn't using both his hands to hold a sparring cushion :-P
Nah but even then, I did learn some useful shit. Nothing specific or particular, just the practice of being close to people trying to hit you.
Still, in a fight, I'm gonna run :D
Also, the falling practice was seriously useful. Except I didn't get enough practice to get very much out of that, but apparently, if you get it down, you can fall on concrete without bruises. That sounds pretty useful, even outside of combat situations eh!
I hope that I feel up to continuing the lessons soon, though.
You learned a spinning back kick from Jujitsu? :?
Maybe I am not so smart, but I thought Jujitsu is primarily a grappling art. One that didn't have that sexy bs you see from TKD or karate.
I dunno if it was a spinning back kick. I forgot how it went exactly, but basically you'd make a half turn, which would put tension on your leg and then when going back it put extra force on the kick.
And yeah, nearly all of the stuff we learned was about grappling, or rolling and falling etc.
The kick was just one single thing I learned that surprised me in the power it generated.
I picked ju-jitsu for the simple reason that, after asking around (also on this board), it would be a type of martial art that actually teaches techniques that are useful in real life situations. I'm not really a type to go for the competition/game element in sports. When I started running, I noticed that indeed if I trained a couple of times a week I could get myself in pretty good shape (always thought I wasnt cut out for that before), so then I figured I should try to use this new found ability for something useful apart from being able to run for quite a while :)
http://www.mauriziomaltese.it/isam/armato.htm
I officially do not like WMA schools that no longer have works they used to have up for free. I guess it's all, "you must buy MY interpretation of this public domain English language manual. And to make sure that happens there is no trace at all of this manual anywhere on the interwebz"
:argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: