http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/2foD9n/www.globalone.tv/group/quantumquest/forum/topics/is-the-universe-a-holographic/r:f
Is hollow graphic, for sure.
Well, before I start reading this, ... isn't this basically the premise behind The Invisibles? ... and pretty much every PKD story?
I think we've covered this before.
In fact, I think Samuel Johnson put this shit to rest 250 years ago.
Also, I'm reasonably certain the OP is Tentasticle, back for another round.
I stubbed my toe and it hurt, so I'm going for "no".
There was an interesting theory on the noise fluctuations in the GEO600 sensor data which correlated to a prediction based on the Holographic Universe model. However, the jury is still out on the causation... The model predicted the noise almost exactly, but some newer data brought up questions about the sensitivity of the sensor array.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327247.000-13-more-things-noise-from-the-edge-of-the-universe.html
The sensor upgrades should be done soon and we'll see if they still pick up the anomalies or if the noise is tuned out.
A prediction?
I saw an interesting documentary about this called the Matrix, you guys should check it out
If the universe WAS a holographic reality, then the programmers should be beaten up and down the street, infected with syphilis, and dropped down a manhole.
But it isn't. This is just another pseudo-religion for people who are afraid of being alive, same as the retards who think that consciousness is just a collection of interacting memes.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest we live in a holographic "phantom" reality, there is nothing implicit or explicit about it in quantum mechanics or physics of any kind, and if we did live in a holographic reality that was somehow "not real" (does this sound to anyone a bit like philosophical zombies?) everything would work as it does already.
Unlike many worlds, which is implicit in dehohesion does not violate other physical laws and explains the weirdness of quantum disentanglement without the stupidity of schrodinger's cat (like collapse postulate does), phantom reality doesn't have anything to it, it is completely meaningless. It is equally as /weird/ as many worlds to the average person, but it is otherwise stupid and useless.
Quote from: Kai on September 07, 2010, 06:30:47 PM
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest we live in a holographic "phantom" reality, there is nothing implicit or explicit about it in quantum mechanics or physics of any kind, and if we did live in a holographic reality that was somehow "not real" (does this sound to anyone a bit like philosophical zombies?) everything would work as it does already.
Unlike many worlds, which is implicit in dehohesion does not violate other physical laws and explains the weirdness of quantum disentanglement without the stupidity of schrodinger's cat (like collapse postulate does), phantom reality doesn't have anything to it, it is completely meaningless. It is equally as /weird/ as many worlds to the average person, but it is otherwise stupid and useless.
BUT...BUT...TEH QUANTUMS!
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 07, 2010, 06:32:10 PM
Quote from: Kai on September 07, 2010, 06:30:47 PM
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest we live in a holographic "phantom" reality, there is nothing implicit or explicit about it in quantum mechanics or physics of any kind, and if we did live in a holographic reality that was somehow "not real" (does this sound to anyone a bit like philosophical zombies?) everything would work as it does already.
Unlike many worlds, which is implicit in dehohesion does not violate other physical laws and explains the weirdness of quantum disentanglement without the stupidity of schrodinger's cat (like collapse postulate does), phantom reality doesn't have anything to it, it is completely meaningless. It is equally as /weird/ as many worlds to the average person, but it is otherwise stupid and useless.
BUT...BUT...TEH QUANTUMS!
Yeah. The quantums.
Remind me to kill whoever was responsible for that film "What the *bleep* do we know?" That piece of shit is responsible for so much of this QUANTUMS madness. That, and that the collapse postulate (now defunct) was proposed before decohesion, leading to people believing that MINDZ CAN EFFECT QUANTUMS and ENERGIEZ FASTER THAN TEH SPEEDZ OF LIGHT. But the latter is more forgivable.
I blame Bohr, actually. He was one of the first ones to use clumsy and inaccurate metaphors to describe QM.
OP: Reality is still real enough that the barstool applies, no matter what we may theorize it is. Neat as philosophical inquiry, but doesn't change the fact that I am here, and here seems solid and consistend enough to interact with.
When the barstool can be un-realed, so to speak, THEN you've got my attention.
the link in the OP is getting stuck in my work firewall,
but--- what richter said!
if we're in a holographic universe -- what are the ramifications in terms of our behavior?
Even if it were true, I think it shouldn't actually affect our behavior at all. I think of it this way--
Is it wrong to murder somebody in a dream?
no, because the people in your dreams aren't actually people with their own unique point of view, consciousness, history, etc.
Is it wrong to murder somebody in the matrix?
yes, because the people in the matrix have their own unique point of view, consciousness, history, etc.
Quote from: Kai on September 07, 2010, 06:40:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 07, 2010, 06:32:10 PM
Quote from: Kai on September 07, 2010, 06:30:47 PM
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest we live in a holographic "phantom" reality, there is nothing implicit or explicit about it in quantum mechanics or physics of any kind, and if we did live in a holographic reality that was somehow "not real" (does this sound to anyone a bit like philosophical zombies?) everything would work as it does already.
Unlike many worlds, which is implicit in dehohesion does not violate other physical laws and explains the weirdness of quantum disentanglement without the stupidity of schrodinger's cat (like collapse postulate does), phantom reality doesn't have anything to it, it is completely meaningless. It is equally as /weird/ as many worlds to the average person, but it is otherwise stupid and useless.
BUT...BUT...TEH QUANTUMS!
Yeah. The quantums.
Remind me to kill whoever was responsible for that film "What the *bleep* do we know?" That piece of shit is responsible for so much of this QUANTUMS madness. That, and that the collapse postulate (now defunct) was proposed before decohesion, leading to people believing that MINDZ CAN EFFECT QUANTUMS and ENERGIEZ FASTER THAN TEH SPEEDZ OF LIGHT. But the latter is more forgivable.
No, it's not.
These people should be fed to wolverines.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 07, 2010, 06:19:18 PM
A prediction?
Here's a direct link to the GEO600's site and their little blurb on last year's findings.
http://www.geo600.org/press-information/press-releases/holographic-noise
Basically the physicist, Craig Hogan of Fermilab, argued that if the universe was holographic in nature* then there would be some specific 'gravitational waves' making 'noise' (single quotes for terms that don't mean what the layman thinks they mean) at specific frequencies coming from the expanding edge of the universe since the holographic model predicts that the edge of the universe is grainy rather than a smooth space-time continuum. The GEO600 project picked up noise at those frequencies in the expected pattern about a year later (his first predictions were published in 2007 IIRC and the data was late 2008). Much more work is required as the article above states to see if these are possibly related or just junk noise.
What that means for us is debatable... mostly it would be cool for physics as it would (possibly) explain 'Spooky Action at a Distance'. It would also mean that given the right measuring devices scientists could learn a lot about distant bits of the universe by studying nearby bits (since all information is encoded in all parts of a hologram).
http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2009/01/white_noise.php <-----Good Explanation Here
http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v78/i8/e087501 <---- Paper on the topic from Hogan (director of Fermilabs)
*note that doesn't mean "not real" it means that the universe encoding is different than we understand... but not that its magic or exists in our head or anything like that).
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 07, 2010, 07:10:44 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 07, 2010, 06:19:18 PM
A prediction?
Here's a direct link to the GEO600's site and their little blurb on last year's findings.
http://www.geo600.org/press-information/press-releases/holographic-noise
Basically the physicist, Craig Hogan of Fermilab, argued that if the universe was holographic in nature* then there would be some specific 'gravitational waves' making 'noise' (single quotes for terms that don't mean what the layman thinks they mean) at specific frequencies coming from the expanding edge of the universe since the holographic model predicts that the edge of the universe is grainy rather than a smooth space-time continuum. The GEO600 project picked up noise at those frequencies in the expected pattern about a year later (his first predictions were published in 2007 IIRC and the data was late 2008). Much more work is required as the article above states to see if these are possibly related or just junk noise.
What that means for us is debatable... mostly it would be cool for physics as it would (possibly) explain 'Spooky Action at a Distance'. It would also mean that given the right measuring devices scientists could learn a lot about distant bits of the universe by studying nearby bits (since all information is encoded in all parts of a hologram).
http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2009/01/white_noise.php <-----Good Explanation Here
http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v78/i8/e087501 <---- Paper on the topic from Hogan (director of Fermilabs)
*note that doesn't mean "not real" it means that the universe encoding is different than we understand... but not that its magic or exists in our head or anything like that).
Except "spooky action at a distance" is already explained by symmetric decoherence.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 07, 2010, 06:27:28 PM
If the universe WAS a holographic reality, then the programmers should be beaten up and down the street, infected with syphilis, and dropped down a manhole.
But it isn't. This is just another pseudo-religion for people who are afraid of being alive, same as the retards who think that consciousness is just a collection of interacting memes.
Allow me to reitterate.
This is starting to remind me of Intelligent Design "Theory".
I've actually read Michael Talbot's book on this, twice.. Once when I was 22, again last year, where he sites Bohm and Pribram's independent theories.
He also gets into Jung's Collective Unconscious, and lays out how you could use the Hollographic model to explain some of the weird shit Jung encountered studying Pschitzophrenics and Manics.
I came away with a 'meh.. maybe'
He did an excellent job of explaining his reasons and conclusions.
It could be used to help explain certain phenomena that occurs at the quantum level, but it's just as improbable as many other theories about what seems to be happening at the Quantum level.
I'd recommend the book, because it's decent, but it is after all, only a theory.
It isn't a theory. It's a hypothesis.
I guess if one were to say they took a walk in the scientific philosophic ocean of my soul, you wouldn't get the tops of your toes wet, it'd be true, because all I can really think is, if the OP is true, then all that means is that we (probably) don't have souls, which makes the time you have that much more important. Or something.
Quote from: Mistress Freeky, HRN on September 07, 2010, 07:54:56 PM
I guess if one were to say they took a walk in the scientific philosophic ocean of my soul, you wouldn't get the tops of your toes wet, it'd be true, because all I can really think is, if the OP is true, then all that means is that we (probably) don't have souls, which makes the time you have that much more important. Or something.
I can't recall how much, if any, Jung touched on Souls in the classic sense, it's been years since I read his book on the Collective Unconscious, but his hypothesis was that while you have a personal conscious that is composed of your own experience and memories, there also seems to be a group or collective unconscious that everyone has, and accounts for having memories of events you couldn't possibly have experienced, among other things.
It's also just a hypothesis, but I don't think the idea discounts a soul, just renames it.
I'm going to pick up another copy of that next time Im at the bookstore. It was dry at times, but very interesting reading.
Leaving this thread now.
Dok,
TOLD you guys it was ID in a funny dress.
Quote from: Kai on September 07, 2010, 07:41:28 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 07, 2010, 07:10:44 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 07, 2010, 06:19:18 PM
A prediction?
Here's a direct link to the GEO600's site and their little blurb on last year's findings.
http://www.geo600.org/press-information/press-releases/holographic-noise
Basically the physicist, Craig Hogan of Fermilab, argued that if the universe was holographic in nature* then there would be some specific 'gravitational waves' making 'noise' (single quotes for terms that don't mean what the layman thinks they mean) at specific frequencies coming from the expanding edge of the universe since the holographic model predicts that the edge of the universe is grainy rather than a smooth space-time continuum. The GEO600 project picked up noise at those frequencies in the expected pattern about a year later (his first predictions were published in 2007 IIRC and the data was late 2008). Much more work is required as the article above states to see if these are possibly related or just junk noise.
What that means for us is debatable... mostly it would be cool for physics as it would (possibly) explain 'Spooky Action at a Distance'. It would also mean that given the right measuring devices scientists could learn a lot about distant bits of the universe by studying nearby bits (since all information is encoded in all parts of a hologram).
http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2009/01/white_noise.php <-----Good Explanation Here
http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v78/i8/e087501 <---- Paper on the topic from Hogan (director of Fermilabs)
*note that doesn't mean "not real" it means that the universe encoding is different than we understand... but not that its magic or exists in our head or anything like that).
Except "spooky action at a distance" is already explained by symmetric decoherence.
I'm not a physicist and I'm only stating what I've read. IMO if the Director of Fermilab, David Bohm and Karl Pribram all considered it a potentially useful model... and if the current physicists at GEO600 are tweaking their sensors to test the theory*, then I'd guess its an interesting concept. Hawking discussed the possibility as well particularly around explaining Hawking Radiation re Black Holes... and his newer theory that black holes may not actually destroy everything ... and the information may still exist in holographic storage.
I think its key to point out here, though, that we're not talking about a holodeck, the Matrix or anything like that... we're talking about the distribution of information and how its perceived.
I have made holographs (my old engineering mentor was awesome). Basically a holographic plate (the bit you shoot the laser through) is a blob of information... which when broken down is a smaller blob of the same information. So if we have a 4x4 inch glass plate that has been exposed to a laser bouncing off of a 3d object we can shoot a laser through it and "see" the image of the actual object projected. If we then cut that 4x4 square into 4 1x1 inch squares we can shoot a laser through and see the whole object (although its a bit more grainy). Its the information storage that's of real interest in the theory... not some "There Is No Spoon" kind of thing.
So even if its true, given the right measuring devices, the barstool may have lots and lots of information about the universe buried inside... but it will still hurt like hell. ;-)
*hypothesis + prediction + observation=theory ... I think
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 07, 2010, 08:28:58 PM
Quote from: Kai on September 07, 2010, 07:41:28 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 07, 2010, 07:10:44 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 07, 2010, 06:19:18 PM
A prediction?
Here's a direct link to the GEO600's site and their little blurb on last year's findings.
http://www.geo600.org/press-information/press-releases/holographic-noise
Basically the physicist, Craig Hogan of Fermilab, argued that if the universe was holographic in nature* then there would be some specific 'gravitational waves' making 'noise' (single quotes for terms that don't mean what the layman thinks they mean) at specific frequencies coming from the expanding edge of the universe since the holographic model predicts that the edge of the universe is grainy rather than a smooth space-time continuum. The GEO600 project picked up noise at those frequencies in the expected pattern about a year later (his first predictions were published in 2007 IIRC and the data was late 2008). Much more work is required as the article above states to see if these are possibly related or just junk noise.
What that means for us is debatable... mostly it would be cool for physics as it would (possibly) explain 'Spooky Action at a Distance'. It would also mean that given the right measuring devices scientists could learn a lot about distant bits of the universe by studying nearby bits (since all information is encoded in all parts of a hologram).
http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2009/01/white_noise.php <-----Good Explanation Here
http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v78/i8/e087501 <---- Paper on the topic from Hogan (director of Fermilabs)
*note that doesn't mean "not real" it means that the universe encoding is different than we understand... but not that its magic or exists in our head or anything like that).
Except "spooky action at a distance" is already explained by symmetric decoherence.
I'm not a physicist and I'm only stating what I've read. IMO if the Director of Fermilab, David Bohm and Karl Pribram all considered it a potentially useful model... and if the current physicists at GEO600 are tweaking their sensors to test the theory*, then I'd guess its an interesting concept. Hawking discussed the possibility as well particularly around explaining Hawking Radiation re Black Holes... and his newer theory that black holes may not actually destroy everything ... and the information may still exist in holographic storage.
I think its key to point out here, though, that we're not talking about a holodeck, the Matrix or anything like that... we're talking about the distribution of information and how its perceived.
I have made holographs (my old engineering mentor was awesome). Basically a holographic plate (the bit you shoot the laser through) is a blob of information... which when broken down is a smaller blob of the same information. So if we have a 4x4 inch glass plate that has been exposed to a laser bouncing off of a 3d object we can shoot a laser through it and "see" the image of the actual object projected. If we then cut that 4x4 square into 4 1x1 inch squares we can shoot a laser through and see the whole object (although its a bit more grainy). Its the information storage that's of real interest in the theory... not some "There Is No Spoon" kind of thing.
So even if its true, given the right measuring devices, the barstool may have lots and lots of information about the universe buried inside... but it will still hurt like hell. ;-)
*hypothesis + prediction + observation=theory ... I think
He got really into breaking down how holographs store information, and you basically summed it up well here. It's how the information of the universe is stored in reality and then perceived by anyone observing.
The applications for computer memory and data storage alone are staggering.
A theory in the scientific sense is a well tested group of hypotheses that explain a massive amount of observations and experimental data. The theory of natural selection is an example, whereby theory denotes "natural selection" as an inducted, synthesizing principle which explains the question, "How did the diversity of life come to be in its current state?"
I personally would not call anything a theory that has not been observationally and/or experimentally verified.
Therefore, String "theory" not a theory, among many hypotheses I could have chosen as an example.
Quote from: Kai on September 07, 2010, 08:38:10 PM
A theory in the scientific sense is a well tested group of hypotheses that explain a massive amount of observations and experimental data. The theory of natural selection is an example, whereby theory denotes "natural selection" as an inducted, synthesizing principle which explains the question, "How did the diversity of life come to be in its current state?"
I personally would not call anything a theory that has not been observationally and/or experimentally verified.
Therefore, String "theory" not a theory, among many hypotheses I could have chosen as an example.
Sure. As I said I called it theory only because there was a specific prediction with the hypothesis and that prediction matches observed data (specifically the GEO600 data). I'm not trying to argue that its true or false... just that its something currently being studied and they're in the middle of actually doing experiments on the concept. That seems a lot closer to theory than ID for example, wherein there is nothing testable at all, or string theory where we currently have no observed data or good experiments to get observed data.
Is the Universe a holograph? Beats the hell out of me.
Are respected physicists experimenting on the topic? It seems that way, though I suppose Fermilab could have hired an idiot as their director, I dunno.
Is the topic bullshit? At the very least , a lot of hype around the topic seems like bullshit to me.
The federal government hiring an idiot for an important (read: patronage) post?
Perish the very notion.
It's not like this FEMA, or something.
This is important shit.
So lemme get this straight, cutting edge theoretical scientists are exploring a notion which stuck me as patently obvious the first time I gave it any serious thought? And, for some reason, prolly best attributable to hysterical primate psychology, they think this is going to somehow change anything about the nature of reality. As someone who seems to be about 20 years ahead of them in their great thought experiment, perhaps I should contact them and tell them how it ends? Save some of this new age bullshit that seems in danger of taking hold here.
Allow me to spell it out - yes the holographic model holds true. All events and phenomena, past, present and future are contained therein. Time is largely an illusory delineation created by a function of consciousness. What does this mean?
Absofuckinglutely nothing! Barstool still hurts.
I always preferred this holographic theory (http://www.ummo-sciences.org/en/index.htm) but only because it's fun to pronounce Ibozoo UU.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 07, 2010, 08:56:05 PM
The federal government hiring an idiot for an important (read: patronage) post?
Perish the very notion.
Myself not being a physicist, I suppose he could be a crank, but from what I've gathered he seems to be a well respected physicist.
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on September 07, 2010, 09:11:56 PM
So lemme get this straight, cutting edge theoretical scientists are exploring a notion which stuck me as patently obvious the first time I gave it any serious thought? And, for some reason, prolly best attributable to hysterical primate psychology, they think this is going to somehow change anything about the nature of reality. As someone who seems to be about 20 years ahead of them in their great thought experiment, perhaps I should contact them and tell them how it ends? Save some of this new age bullshit that seems in danger of taking hold here.
Allow me to spell it out - yes the holographic model holds true. All events and phenomena, past, present and future are contained therein. Time is largely an illusory delineation created by a function of consciousness. What does this mean?
Absofuckinglutely nothing! Barstool still hurts.
From what I read he's focused on holographic theory as a model not as a OMGZQUANTUMZ IS MAGICKS sort of thing. IIRC his big excitement was something about finally being able to measure minimum intervals of time. I think only newage cranks seem to think it will prove magic is science and up is down and the spoon is not a spoon but only a manifestation of our own conscious desire for soup or whatever the hell they babble on about.
I think its yet another theory that is getting bad press based on uninformed commentary... much like entanglement, uncertainty etc.
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/56605/title/Hogan%E2%80%99s_noise <--- most accessible summation I've read of his work yet.
The holographic idea came out of black hole thermodynamics. Out of that era when the Black Hole Wars (http://calitreview.com/790) were raging. This was essentially an argument over whether black holes destroyed information. Another thing that came out of it was Hawking's prediction that black holes gave off radiation.
One of the many weird results of all the physics that was done at that time was the discovery that (given certain minimal assumptions) the total entropy of a black hole was proportional the square of the radius and not, as usually calculated, the cube.
Since entropy can be thought of as information, this means that the maximum amount of information that can be contained in a black hole is proportional to the area of its horizon.
Now, since a black hole is the densest possible configuration of matter, it follows that the maximum amount of information contained in the universe is also proportional to the area of its surface.
That's it. That's all it means.
However, it swiftly got co opted by the new-age quantum illusion magic spoon matrix crowd, who declared that we're all living in an alien simulation.
The fuckers.
Thank you. That was elegant and succinct.
Right on, Igor.
Let me know if you want to take over the position of explaining technical science stuff. You seem to be better at it than me.
:thanks:
Don't know if I'll be taking over anything just yet though.
Of course, having hippies market pseudoscience under the most fashionable new scientific term is hardly new.
"The Tao of Physics".
"Quantum Healing".
etc, ad nauseum.
The monkeys saw indisctinct things in the cracks, and invented new gods every time
Quote from: Richter on September 08, 2010, 05:55:29 PM
The monkeys saw indisctinct things in the cracks, and invented new gods every time
Ho ho! I believe you have hit the nail on the head. As accumulated knowledge deprives man of his old Gods, he will generate new ones based on improperly understood aspects of that accumulated knowledge.
Quote from: Igor on September 07, 2010, 10:07:32 PM
The holographic idea came out of black hole thermodynamics. Out of that era when the Black Hole Wars (http://calitreview.com/790) were raging. This was essentially an argument over whether black holes destroyed information. Another thing that came out of it was Hawking's prediction that black holes gave off radiation.
One of the many weird results of all the physics that was done at that time was the discovery that (given certain minimal assumptions) the total entropy of a black hole was proportional the square of the radius and not, as usually calculated, the cube.
Since entropy can be thought of as information, this means that the maximum amount of information that can be contained in a black hole is proportional to the area of its horizon.
Now, since a black hole is the densest possible configuration of matter, it follows that the maximum amount of information contained in the universe is also proportional to the area of its surface.
That's it. That's all it means.
However, it swiftly got co opted by the new-age quantum illusion magic spoon matrix crowd, who declared that we're all living in an alien simulation.
The fuckers.
Nicely stated!
However, I think its a bit more than that with Hogan's noise. I think he's theorizing that space and time may be made of grains of space/time which is very cool but still nothing like alien simulations ;-)
QuoteHogan combines the idea of pixelated spacetime with the notion ... that a surface enclosing a volume of space encodes all the information contained in that volume. Just as the hologram imprinted on a credit card reveals a third dimension, so too does an imaginary surface in spacetime appear to create an extra dimension.
I once had a course on how to do research. It was proctored by an absentee paper pusher who didn't seem very deep and wore a cross, so I for the final paper I tried to convince her that the universe was a virtual reality simulation. It got very high marks. :lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 08, 2010, 05:49:49 PM
Of course, having hippies market pseudoscience under the most fashionable new scientific term is hardly new.
"The Tao of Physics".
"Quantum Healing".
etc, ad nauseum.
The Theory of Electromagnetism as begun by Maxwell and continued with the work of others...of Self-Actualization.