It's somewhat relevant to this topic but I didn't want to tangent too much:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=26448.0;topicseen
I'm currently thinking about what to do in this particular section for the Jack of All Forums challenge. Perhaps this will evolve into what I want to use for that, but I'm hoping to come up with another topic for that, and this might help me formulate an idea.
So, what are your thoughts on Eris? Is she a goddess, or a personification of some sort of active agent in the universe or a metaphor? Perhaps she means something else to you. I was under the impression that the idea around here was that she was a metaphor, but I'm actually just basing that on a handful of posts, the only one that I can recall is one that I think was from ECH. This probably has been discussed already, and maybe I haven't come across the right thread yet.
Feel free to PM thoughts if you don't feel like putting them all out there.
When I'm doing a ritual to Eris, she's my goddess.
When I'm discussing Discordian philosophy she's either a metaphor, a personification or a foil for the broader discussion.
When I'm writing a Discordian parable/story she's a fictional character that has something to do with the point I'm making (or not depending on how much you think my writing sucks).
If a really real for real 'Eris' exists, I doubt she is anything like the Eris of the PD. However, the Eris from the PD is a helluva lot more fun at parties and she occasionally hooks me up with great psychedelics.
Also, Eris, if you're reading this... I totally believe you're real, please don't come visit just to prove a point.
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 09, 2010, 11:09:08 PM
When I'm doing a ritual to Eris, she's my goddess.
When I'm discussing Discordian philosophy she's either a metaphor, a personification or a foil for the broader discussion.
When I'm writing a Discordian parable/story she's a fictional character that has something to do with the point I'm making (or not depending on how much you think my writing sucks).
If a really real for real 'Eris' exists, I doubt she is anything like the Eris of the PD. However, the Eris from the PD is a helluva lot more fun at parties and she occasionally hooks me up with great psychedelics.
Also, Eris, if you're reading this... I totally believe you're real, please don't come visit just to prove a point.
Judging from your other posts, I can see this. I'm a theistic Pagan myself
Eris is the anti-God that fucks all our minds over.
Feel free to debate me on this point.
Ok.
What the fuck is an "anti-God"?
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 10, 2010, 01:33:05 PM
Ok.
What the fuck is an "anti-God"?
The stuff that runs these guys dilithium core....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBRSdOTirjk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBRSdOTirjk)
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 10, 2010, 12:48:11 AM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 09, 2010, 11:09:08 PM
When I'm doing a ritual to Eris, she's my goddess.
When I'm discussing Discordian philosophy she's either a metaphor, a personification or a foil for the broader discussion.
When I'm writing a Discordian parable/story she's a fictional character that has something to do with the point I'm making (or not depending on how much you think my writing sucks).
If a really real for real 'Eris' exists, I doubt she is anything like the Eris of the PD. However, the Eris from the PD is a helluva lot more fun at parties and she occasionally hooks me up with great psychedelics.
Also, Eris, if you're reading this... I totally believe you're real, please don't come visit just to prove a point.
Judging from your other posts, I can see this. I'm a theistic Pagan myself
I tried that.. but Eris kept getting jealous of Theroin, Babelon and anyone else I talked to.
She is such a bitch.
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 10, 2010, 01:29:22 AM
Eris is the anti-God that fucks all our minds over.
Feel free to debate me on this point.
What Alphapance said. I could see Lucifer as being an anti-God, whatever it means, since he himself is not a deity to begin with and is at war with God, but I'm not certain Eris would qualify, since she is recognized as a goddess in Greek myth.
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 10, 2010, 03:11:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 10, 2010, 12:48:11 AM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 09, 2010, 11:09:08 PM
When I'm doing a ritual to Eris, she's my goddess.
When I'm discussing Discordian philosophy she's either a metaphor, a personification or a foil for the broader discussion.
When I'm writing a Discordian parable/story she's a fictional character that has something to do with the point I'm making (or not depending on how much you think my writing sucks).
If a really real for real 'Eris' exists, I doubt she is anything like the Eris of the PD. However, the Eris from the PD is a helluva lot more fun at parties and she occasionally hooks me up with great psychedelics.
Also, Eris, if you're reading this... I totally believe you're real, please don't come visit just to prove a point.
Judging from your other posts, I can see this. I'm a theistic Pagan myself
I tried that.. but Eris kept getting jealous of Theroin, Babelon and anyone else I talked to.
She is such a bitch.
"I am the LADY your goddess who brought you out of cabbage-land. Thou shalt have no gods before me."
:lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 10, 2010, 05:24:28 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 10, 2010, 03:11:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 10, 2010, 12:48:11 AM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 09, 2010, 11:09:08 PM
When I'm doing a ritual to Eris, she's my goddess.
When I'm discussing Discordian philosophy she's either a metaphor, a personification or a foil for the broader discussion.
When I'm writing a Discordian parable/story she's a fictional character that has something to do with the point I'm making (or not depending on how much you think my writing sucks).
If a really real for real 'Eris' exists, I doubt she is anything like the Eris of the PD. However, the Eris from the PD is a helluva lot more fun at parties and she occasionally hooks me up with great psychedelics.
Also, Eris, if you're reading this... I totally believe you're real, please don't come visit just to prove a point.
Judging from your other posts, I can see this. I'm a theistic Pagan myself
I tried that.. but Eris kept getting jealous of Theroin, Babelon and anyone else I talked to.
She is such a bitch.
"I am the LADY your goddess who brought you out of cabbage-land. Thou shalt have no gods before me."
:lulz:
Meh, mostly she was just pissed they would have a threesome with her I think.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 10, 2010, 05:23:07 PM
What Alphapance said. I could see Lucifer as being an anti-God, whatever it means, since he himself is not a deity to begin with and is at war with God, but I'm not certain Eris would qualify, since she is recognized as a goddess in Greek myth.
I disagree with Lucifer not being a deity. But I guess it depends on how you define it though.
Eris is sexy as fuck though. :D
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 10, 2010, 01:33:05 PM
Ok.
What the fuck is an "anti-God"?
An anti-God being anything that is totally against God. Like, in traditional monotheistic views Eris would be on the same level as Satan, as she stands for and is everything that "God" is against.
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 10, 2010, 11:51:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 10, 2010, 01:33:05 PM
Ok.
What the fuck is an "anti-God"?
An anti-God being anything that is totally against God. Like, in traditional monotheistic views Eris would be on the same level as Satan, as she stands for and is everything that "God" is against.
The problem with relating a deity from a polytheistic religion to thew antithesis of a monotheistic deity is... they dont coexist in the same mythology and cannot be "opposed", in a way that's significant. Monotheistic religions do not have a "view" of Eris because... she is not in those religions. If you want to draw comparisons between Eris and Lucifer, or Eris and Angra Mainyu (much easier comparison), or something like that, then that's one thing, but still. Oh, and not all monotheistic have "traditional" (I read it as: Abrahamic) views on God.
To me, she's the face attached to an idea.
She is a moral and a fable, one of the few told through a fun sense of humour.
She is my code and ethos and a way of describing the way I feel about the world.
She doesn't want me to pin her into a box, so I use whichever model seems most appropriate at the time.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 10, 2010, 11:47:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 10, 2010, 05:23:07 PM
What Alphapance said. I could see Lucifer as being an anti-God, whatever it means, since he himself is not a deity to begin with and is at war with God, but I'm not certain Eris would qualify, since she is recognized as a goddess in Greek myth.
I disagree with Lucifer not being a deity. But I guess it depends on how you define it though.
Eris is sexy as fuck though. :D
Depends on perspective. I'm always going to see him as a fallen angel, due to my upbringing. Sometimes you can't shake off some of the Catholic.
And yes she is. Respectful :fap:
Quote from: Hover Cat on September 11, 2010, 01:07:12 AM
To me, she's the face attached to an idea.
Fair enough, but does the face represent a distinct and valid personality, or is she just more of a mascot?
Quote from: Faust on September 11, 2010, 01:34:36 AM
She is a moral and a fable, one of the few told through a fun sense of humour.
She is my code and ethos and a way of describing the way I feel about the world.
So, to you she's basically a metaphor, yeah?
Quote from: Telarus on September 11, 2010, 03:37:40 AM
She doesn't want me to pin her into a box, so I use whichever model seems most appropriate at the time.
Interesting. This implies some independent intelligence, unless I am mistaken. What's appropriate for you at the present time?
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 11, 2010, 06:59:09 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 11, 2010, 01:34:36 AM
She is a moral and a fable, one of the few told through a fun sense of humour.
She is my code and ethos and a way of describing the way I feel about the world.
So, to you she's basically a metaphor, yeah?
No, she is partially a metaphor. But seeing as you are interested more in the boring old personification side of her (the part that is irrelevant), her living persona exists in the minds of those who know of her.
Quote from: Faust on September 11, 2010, 11:13:28 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 11, 2010, 06:59:09 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 11, 2010, 01:34:36 AM
She is a moral and a fable, one of the few told through a fun sense of humour.
She is my code and ethos and a way of describing the way I feel about the world.
So, to you she's basically a metaphor, yeah?
No, she is partially a metaphor. But seeing as you are interested more in the boring old personification side of her (the part that is irrelevant), her living persona exists in the minds of those who know of her.
My interest here is in getting a view of how different Discordians see her. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what you're saying.
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Call me a psychopath then.... a
kinky psychopath... :tao&evt:
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Well if you want to take the ancient Greeks at their word when describing her. Wasn't the quote that the ancient Greeks weren't to be trusted with these kind of things.
I wonder what her sexual orientation is. I'm guessing bi.
It's a well-known fact that Eris is decidedly trisexual.
Quote from: Faust on September 12, 2010, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Well if you want to take the ancient Greeks at their word when describing her. Wasn't the quote that the ancient Greeks weren't to be trusted with these kind of things.
This. They didn't even know about the Law of Fives!
Quote from: Triple Zero on September 12, 2010, 01:50:52 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 12, 2010, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Well if you want to take the ancient Greeks at their word when describing her. Wasn't the quote that the ancient Greeks weren't to be trusted with these kind of things.
This. They didn't even know about the Law of Fives!
Sounds sorta like the Christian switch from the vengeful YHWH to the new testament god of love.
Quote from: Kai on September 12, 2010, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on September 12, 2010, 01:50:52 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 12, 2010, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Well if you want to take the ancient Greeks at their word when describing her. Wasn't the quote that the ancient Greeks weren't to be trusted with these kind of things.
This. They didn't even know about the Law of Fives!
Sounds sorta like the Christian switch from the vengeful YHWH to the new testament god of love.
That was just a PR stunt, like switching from "War on Terror" to "Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism." It didn't actually change anything. Eris, on the other hand, really did reform, because she didn't know about weed until the 1950's.
Quote from: Kai on September 12, 2010, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on September 12, 2010, 01:50:52 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 12, 2010, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Well if you want to take the ancient Greeks at their word when describing her. Wasn't the quote that the ancient Greeks weren't to be trusted with these kind of things.
This. They didn't even know about the Law of Fives!
Sounds sorta like the Christian switch from the vengeful YHWH to the new testament god of love.
uh I'm not entirely sure what you are on about?
Because there is of course no such thing as "the Christian switch" but rather a complicated series of schisms and divisions spread out over many centuries, and continents.
And if you are referring to that, you must be painting with an incredibly broad "sorta" brush. So broad, it's kinda meaningless to make comparisons.
I just realized you might have been trying to talk exclusively about the difference between god in the OT and the NT. But if you call that "the Christian switch" then I think you are conveniently ignoring gigantic chunks of Christian history as well as the meaning of Christianity worldwide today, most of which doesn't really consider it a switch, but have wildly varying explanations to account for the differences between the two books.
However, assuming that this alleged switch must have caused no end of discord and strife, it is indeed sorta like Eris.
Quote from: Triple Zero on September 12, 2010, 04:12:01 PM
Quote from: Kai on September 12, 2010, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on September 12, 2010, 01:50:52 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 12, 2010, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Well if you want to take the ancient Greeks at their word when describing her. Wasn't the quote that the ancient Greeks weren't to be trusted with these kind of things.
This. They didn't even know about the Law of Fives!
Sounds sorta like the Christian switch from the vengeful YHWH to the new testament god of love.
uh I'm not entirely sure what you are on about?
Because there is of course no such thing as "the Christian switch" but rather a complicated series of schisms and divisions spread out over many centuries, and continents.
And if you are referring to that, you must be painting with an incredibly broad "sorta" brush. So broad, it's kinda meaningless to make comparisons.
I just realized you might have been trying to talk exclusively about the difference between god in the OT and the NT. But if you call that "the Christian switch" then I think you are conveniently ignoring gigantic chunks of Christian history as well as the meaning of Christianity worldwide today, most of which doesn't really consider it a switch, but have wildly varying explanations to account for the differences between the two books.
However, assuming that this alleged switch must have caused no end of discord and strife, it is indeed sorta like Eris.
From a perspective "chrooted" into christian theology, the difference between the God of Wrath to the God of Love came about when Jesus fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant by being the only person to ever perfectly follow the Mosaic Law without exception, thus becoming the person with whom God formed a new covenant, referred to by Christians as the Covenant of Grace. Under the Abrahamic Covenant and the old Law, punishment for sin was swift and harsh, either to be carried out by Hebrew priests and judges or more rarely by God himself; under the Covenant of Grace, punishment for sin is spiritual rather than political, and stayed until death.
That shift is what Kai was referring to.
In practice, of course, Christians are approximately equivalent to the Jewish Law when it comes to being dicks about "sin."
DOUBLE POST TO APOLOGIZE FOR JACKING A THREAD ABOUT ERIS AND TURNING IT INTO CHRISTIAN THEOLOGICAL DISCUSSION.
and to re-jack:
Eris is the scent of an elusive woman which, when followed, guides you through terrible events and unbearable hardship. In a lulzy kind of way.
Quote from: vexati0n on September 12, 2010, 05:11:43 PM
DOUBLE POST TO APOLOGIZE FOR JACKING A THREAD ABOUT ERIS AND TURNING IT INTO CHRISTIAN THEOLOGICAL DISCUSSION.
Yeah, never mind that, I just could have left it at "christians are a varied bunch".
The point is, that the (modern) Discordian concept of Eris is not necessarily the same evil crone as She was to the ancient Greeks.
Ancient people had stronger stomachs.
Quote from: vexati0n on September 12, 2010, 05:55:40 PM
Ancient people had stronger stomachs.
I think that they just had different stomachs. Its kinda natural for the views of a particular deity to evolve over time, and Greek gods are no exception to that. Some people worship Zeus but they don't expect him to come down and hump their daughter. Maybe he and Hera went to marriage counseling. :lulz:
As far as Eris goes, even to an ancient Greek, she takes on a different light when viewed from a different angle. For example, she can be seen as blameless for the Trojan War. It's the pettiness of the three goddesses that lead to that, Aphrodite's careless offer, and Paris' poor judgment that led to that. Eris can be seen as a noble figure in that myth, since she is exposing the ugliness and narcissism in 3 respected goddesses through her prank.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 12, 2010, 11:38:40 PM
As far as Eris goes, even to an ancient Greek, she takes on a different light when viewed from a different angle. For example, she can be seen as blameless for the Trojan War. It's the pettiness of the three goddesses that lead to that, Aphrodite's careless offer, and Paris' poor judgment that led to that. Eris can be seen as a noble figure in that myth, since she is exposing the ugliness and narcissism in 3 respected goddesses through her prank.
This. Eris did in deed cast the apple, knowing full well it would lead to an argument. However, it was not her, but the other goddesses who involved mortals into the affair in the first place. Blaming Aphrodite for the war is much more appropriate.
However, one must remember that the gods of the Ancient Greeks cared little for mortals in general, as demonstrated by the fact that woman was created as a punishment for man after Prometheus gifted them with fire, despite "man" having no active part in the "theft" of the fire, as I recall.
ETA: little mistakes, damn them.
BELLONA
(http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/bellona1.jpg)
Real Name: Eris
Identity/Class: Olympian god
Occupation: Goddess of strife and discord
Group Membership: Olympus Group, Olympian gods (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/godsolym.htm)
Affiliations: Arachne, Argus, Hera, Hephaestus, Huntsman (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/huntsman.htm), Lamia, Typhon (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/typhonav.htm);
Employed the Centaurion; formerly sought advice from Sybilla (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/sibyls.htm)
Enemies (Entertainments): Athena, Avengers (Amadeus Cho, Quicksilver, Spider-Man (Parker), Spider-Woman (Drew), USAgent, Wasp (Pym), Wolverine (Logan/Howlett) ), Hebe, Kyllian (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/wildpride.htm), Zeus
Known Relatives: Zeus (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix5/zeus_olympus.htm) (father), Hera (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/herajuno.htm) (mother); Ares, Hephaestus (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hephast.htm) (brothers), Eileithyia, Hebe (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hebejuve.htm) (sisters), Hercules, Apollo (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/apolloph.htm), Hermes (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/hermesmr.htm), Dionysus (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/dionysus.html) (half-brothers), Artemis (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/artemisd.htm), Athena (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/athenami.htm), Venus (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/venusaph.htm), Persephone (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/perseph1.htm) (half-sisters), Neptune (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/neptunep.htm), Pluto (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/plutohades.htm) (uncles), Demeter (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/demeterc.htm), Vesta (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/vestahes.htm) (aunts), Asclepius, Cupid (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/cupid.htm), Janus, Deimos (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/demphb.htm), Phobos (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/demphb.htm) (nephews), Harmonia (niece), Triton, Rhode, Benthescyme, Neptunia (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/neptunia.htm) , Arion, Pomona, Consus, Vertumnus (cousins)
Aliases: Enyo, Discord, Discordia
Base of Operations: Olympus, possibly the Areopagus (Ares' retreat)
First Appearance: Doctor Strange III#54 (June, 1993)
Powers/Abilities: Bellona possesses the conventional attributes of the Olympian gods such as superhuman strength (at least Class 25), stamina, resistance to injury, an enchanted longevity and vitality.
History: (Greek Myth)- Bellona is the daughter of the Zeus, Ruler of the Olympian gods, and his wife, Hera ( :lulz:). According to a much earlier account, she was actually the daughter of the ancient primeval earth-gods Erebus and Nox, but this maybe erroneous, or just an earlier incarnation of the goddess(:fnord:).
Better known as Discord or Eris, Bellona often entered into the schemes and plans of her older brother Ares to ignite the dissension that often lead to war and she might have at one time been his wife following his affairs with other goddesses and mortal women, mortals who were quite often the wives of his generals and followers. Possibly as a way to cause dissension between gods and mortals, she stole three apples from the garden the Hesperides guarded for Hera and had them engraved with the words, "For the Fairest." She then tossed them among the guests attending the marriage of King Peleus of Aegina to the goddess Thetis. Hera, Athena and Aphrodite then tried to claim the apples in the dispute that triggered the Trojan War. Her activity after that event is unrecorded, but after the war, several Trojan refugees lead by Dardanian prince Aeneas conquered the area upon Rome was built on. During the Roman Empire, Bellona was worshipped as Discord, one of their most important goddesses which may have been part of her long-term schemes.
(http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/bellona2.jpg)
(Doctor Strange III#54/2 (fb) - BTS) - For centuries, Bellona prepared her champion, the Centaurion to fight on her behalf.
(Doctor Strange III#54/2, [55/2], 56/2) - Bored after a long period of inactivity in Mt. Olympus, Bellona took a swooping hawk as an omen from Sybilla and went to see the prophetess. She hoped that she might find a challenge that would allow her to surpass Ares, especially as he had been faring poorly against Thor, of late. Sybilla showed Bellona an image of Kyllian, who was a host of the power of a trio of Celtic Gods, against whom some of the Olympian Gods held some enmity. She thus sent the Centaurion to Earth to slay Kyllian. However, the power of the trio of gods empowering Kyllian proved too much for the Centaurion, and Kyllian eventually overcame him.
Bellona came to Earth to check on her champion and was surprised to see him defeated. Realizing that she had made a mistake in sending a mere demi-god, Bellona opened a portal (via the Salts of Skartekis) to return to Olympus. Kyllian grabbed her arm and tried to question her, but she backhanded him, chastising him for laying his hands on an Olympian. When he stood up to her challenge, she realized that perhaps he might be a better pawn or ally than an opponent. Telling him that their struggles were not finished, she vanished back to Olympus.
Bellona confronted Sybilla, who confessed that she had known that Kyllian would present a greater challenge than Bellona had anticipated. Angered, Bellona refused to view Sybilla's next vision, which showed Kyllian and Bellona in a major liplock.
(http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/bellona3.jpg)
(Incredible Hercules#138) - Eris was among Hera's legions that fought the Avengers at Olympus Group Tower.
(Incredible Hercules#139) - Eris concentrated on USAgent, who wasn't willing to fight a woman at first. She scratched him, psychically shattered his belief system and then tried to cut him in pieces with her sword.
(Incredible Hercules#140) - Her sword and USAgent's shield vanished due to Continuum using the matter to create a new Earth.
(Incredible Hercules#141) - Wasp, in giant form, kicked down Eris to help USAgent.
Comments: Adapted by Geoff Isherwood.
Nox, whom some references count as mother of Bellona, has an entry here (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/nyx.html).
Bellona (Discord) is possibly the closest counterpart in the Olympian Pantheon to a trickster-god. Others include the Asgardian Loki, the Mexican god
Tezcatlipoca (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/tezcat.htm), the Native American Coyote also known as Nanabozho (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/nanabozh.htm) and the Celtic Spirit Bres (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/bres.htm).
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
http://www.mythindex.com/roman-mythology/B/Bellona.html
The goddess of war among the Romans. It is very probable that originally Bellona was a Sabine divinity whose worship was carried to Rome by the Sabine settlers. She is frequently mentioned by the Roman poets as the companion of Mars, or even as his sister or his wife. Virgil describes her as armed with a bloody scourge. (Virg. Aen. viii. 703; Lucan, Phars. vii. 569; Horat. Sat. ii. 3. 223.) The main object for which Bellena was worshipped and invoked, was to grant a warlike spirit and enthusiasm which no enemy could resist; and it was for this reason, for she had been worshipped at Rome from early times (Liv. viii. 9), that in B. C. 296, during the war against the Samnites, Appius Claudius the Blind vowed the first temple of Bellona, which was accordingly erected in the Campus Martins close by the Circus Flaminius. (Liv. x. 19; Ov. Fast. vi. 201, &c.) This temple subsequently became of great political importance, for in it the senate assembled to give audience to foreign ambassadors, whom it was not thought proper to admit into the city, to generals who returned from a campaign for which they claimed the honour of a triumph, and on other occasions. (Liv. xxviii. 9, xxx. 21; Dict. of Ant. s.v. Legatus). In front of the entrance to the temple there stood a pillar, which served for making the symbolical declarations of war; for the area of the temple was regarded as a symbolical representation of the enemies' country, and the pillar as that of the frontier, and the declaration of war was made by launching a spear over the pillar. This ceremony, so long as the Roman dominion was of small extent, had been performed on the actual frontier of the enemy's country. (Ov. Fast. vi. 205, &c.; Serv. ad Aen. ix. 53; Liv. i. 32; Dict. of Ant. s. v. Fetiales.) The priests of Bellona were called Bellonarii, and when they offered sacrifices to her, they had to wound their own arms or legs, and either to offer up the blood or drink it themselves, in order to become inspired with a warlike enthusiasm. This sacrifice, which was afterwards softened down into a mere symbolic act, took place on the 24th of March, which day was called dies sanguinisfor this reason. (Lucan, i. 565; Martial, xii. 57; Tertull. Apology. 9; Lactant. i. 21.)
-----------------------------------
You had to throw a spear at Eris' Temple to declare WAR in the Roman Senate. :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Nowadays, we simply recommend not praying (see "On Prayer", Principia Discordia).
I conceptualize Eris as a troll archetype but especially of theology.
A self-inflicted one by the woo-woo riddled ancients and theist Discordians, and an other-inflicted one by apathiest Discordians.
Quote from: Telarus on September 13, 2010, 12:38:04 AM
History: (Greek Myth)- Bellona is the daughter of the Zeus, Ruler of the Olympian gods, and his wife, Hera ( :lulz:).
so, in other words--if my memory of Greek mythology serves me correctly--she's the product of inbreeding.
Quote from: dontblameyoko on September 13, 2010, 03:19:01 AM
Quote from: Telarus on September 13, 2010, 12:38:04 AM
History: (Greek Myth)- Bellona is the daughter of the Zeus, Ruler of the Olympian gods, and his wife, Hera ( :lulz:).
so, in other words--if my memory of Greek mythology serves me correctly--she's the product of inbreeding.
Almost every Greek deity is the product of inbreeding. It started with Ouranus and Gaia. They begot Kronos, his "wife" Rhea, and the the other Titans, Cyclopes, and 100 Handers. Kronos and Rhea had Zeus, Hera, Hestia, Demeter, Poseidon, and Hades. Zeus and Hera had Ares, Eris (in some versions), and one or two I am forgetting. Zeus and Demeter had Persephone (who later "married", her double uncle Hades). And that's how it goes. Most ancient divine genealogies involve a significant degree of inbreeding because of lack of options.
Quote from: vexati0n on September 12, 2010, 03:20:18 PM
Quote from: Kai on September 12, 2010, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on September 12, 2010, 01:50:52 PM
Quote from: Faust on September 12, 2010, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Well if you want to take the ancient Greeks at their word when describing her. Wasn't the quote that the ancient Greeks weren't to be trusted with these kind of things.
This. They didn't even know about the Law of Fives!
Sounds sorta like the Christian switch from the vengeful YHWH to the new testament god of love.
That was just a PR stunt, like switching from "War on Terror" to "Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism." It didn't actually change anything. Eris, on the other hand, really did reform, because she didn't know about weed until the 1950's.
I prefer the Gnostic version of things where the God of the old testament and the "Father" God of the new testament are completely different deities and Jesus came to save us from the evil God of the old testament.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 12, 2010, 11:38:40 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on September 12, 2010, 05:55:40 PM
Ancient people had stronger stomachs.
I think that they just had different stomachs.
Well, they have to, right?
If they had the same stomachs as us they'd have to have transdimensional intestines and timetravel digestion.
Quote from: Triple Zero on September 13, 2010, 11:34:26 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 12, 2010, 11:38:40 PM
Quote from: vexati0n on September 12, 2010, 05:55:40 PM
Ancient people had stronger stomachs.
I think that they just had different stomachs.
Well, they have to, right?
If they had the same stomachs as us they'd have to have transdimensional intestines and timetravel digestion.
(http://imgur.com/Va4nu.gif)
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 13, 2010, 12:03:53 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 12, 2010, 11:38:40 PM
As far as Eris goes, even to an ancient Greek, she takes on a different light when viewed from a different angle. For example, she can be seen as blameless for the Trojan War. It's the pettiness of the three goddesses that lead to that, Aphrodite's careless offer, and Paris' poor judgment that led to that. Eris can be seen as a noble figure in that myth, since she is exposing the ugliness and narcissism in 3 respected goddesses through her prank.
This. Eris did in deed cast the apple, knowing full well it would lead to an argument. However, it was not her, but the other goddesses who involved mortals into the affair in the first place. Blaming Aphrodite for the war is much more appropriate.
However, one must remember that the gods of the Ancient Greeks cared little for mortals in general, as demonstrated by the fact that woman was created as a punishment for man after Prometheus gifted them with fire, despite "man" having no active part in the "theft" of the fire, as I recall.
ETA: little mistakes, damn them.
Also the ancient Greek Gods almost uniformly were considered to be foresighted well beyond the means of mortals. While it wasn't a given that Troy would've born the brunt of a celestial hissy-fit, somewhere was going to suffer. And of course, let's not forget the mythological account of Eris' role in the siege of Troy, where she sided with her brother Ares:
Homer, Iliad 4. 441 ff :
"Ares drove these [the Trojans] on, and the Akhaians grey-eyed Athene, and Phobos drove them, and Deimos, and Eris whose wrath is relentless, she is the sister and companion of murderous Ares, she who is only a little thing at the first, but thereafter grows until she strides on the earth with her head striking heaven. She then hurled down bitterness equally between both sides as she walked through the onslaught making men's pain heavier."
Homer, Iliad 18. 535 ff :
"The other army, as soon as they heard the uproar arising . . . suddenly mounted behind their light-foot horses, and went after, and soon overtook them. These stood their ground and fought a battle by the banks of the river, and they were making casts at each other with their spears bronze-headed; and Eris was there with Kydoimos (Confusion) among them, and Ker (Death) the destructive; she was holding a live man with a new wound, and another one unhurt, and dragged a dead man by the feet through the carnage."
Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy 1. 158 ff :
"Her [the Amazon Penthesilea] strong right hand laid hold on a huge halberd, sharp of either blade, which terrible Eris gave to Ares' child to be her Titan weapon in the strife [of the Trojan War] that raveneth souls of men."
Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy 10. 51 ff :
"To one place Eris drew them all, the fearful Battle-queen, beheld of none, but cloaked in clouds blood-raining: on she stalked swelling the mighty roar of battle, now rushed through Troy's squadrons, through Akhaia's now; Phobos (Panic) and Deimos (Fear) still waited on her steps to make their father's [Ares'] sister glorious. From small to huge that Fury's stature grew; her arms of adamant were blood-besprent, the deadly lance she brandished reached the sky. Earth quaked beneath her feet: dread blasts of fire flamed from her mouth: her voice pealed thunder-like kindling strong men. Swift closed the fronts of fight drawn by a dread Power to the mighty work."
And so on and so forth.
Eris is the person who keeps stealing socks out of my dryer!
Must be penance for puns.
Sorry I'm late, I took the weekend off (as usual). Anyway...
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 10, 2010, 11:51:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 10, 2010, 01:33:05 PM
Ok.
What the fuck is an "anti-God"?
An anti-God being anything that is totally against God. Like, in traditional monotheistic views Eris would be on the same level as Satan, as she stands for and is everything that "God" is against.
So, what's the definition of "God" that you're using here? I need to understand your terms before we can get going.
Quote from: Cain on September 13, 2010, 12:31:34 PM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 13, 2010, 12:03:53 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 12, 2010, 11:38:40 PM
As far as Eris goes, even to an ancient Greek, she takes on a different light when viewed from a different angle. For example, she can be seen as blameless for the Trojan War. It's the pettiness of the three goddesses that lead to that, Aphrodite's careless offer, and Paris' poor judgment that led to that. Eris can be seen as a noble figure in that myth, since she is exposing the ugliness and narcissism in 3 respected goddesses through her prank.
This. Eris did in deed cast the apple, knowing full well it would lead to an argument. However, it was not her, but the other goddesses who involved mortals into the affair in the first place. Blaming Aphrodite for the war is much more appropriate.
However, one must remember that the gods of the Ancient Greeks cared little for mortals in general, as demonstrated by the fact that woman was created as a punishment for man after Prometheus gifted them with fire, despite "man" having no active part in the "theft" of the fire, as I recall.
ETA: little mistakes, damn them.
Also the ancient Greek Gods almost uniformly were considered to be foresighted well beyond the means of mortals. While it wasn't a given that Troy would've born the brunt of a celestial hissy-fit, somewhere was going to suffer. And of course, let's not forget the mythological account of Eris' role in the siege of Troy, where she sided with her brother Ares:
Homer, Iliad 4. 441 ff :
"Ares drove these [the Trojans] on, and the Akhaians grey-eyed Athene, and Phobos drove them, and Deimos, and Eris whose wrath is relentless, she is the sister and companion of murderous Ares, she who is only a little thing at the first, but thereafter grows until she strides on the earth with her head striking heaven. She then hurled down bitterness equally between both sides as she walked through the onslaught making men's pain heavier."
Homer, Iliad 18. 535 ff :
"The other army, as soon as they heard the uproar arising . . . suddenly mounted behind their light-foot horses, and went after, and soon overtook them. These stood their ground and fought a battle by the banks of the river, and they were making casts at each other with their spears bronze-headed; and Eris was there with Kydoimos (Confusion) among them, and Ker (Death) the destructive; she was holding a live man with a new wound, and another one unhurt, and dragged a dead man by the feet through the carnage."
Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy 1. 158 ff :
"Her [the Amazon Penthesilea] strong right hand laid hold on a huge halberd, sharp of either blade, which terrible Eris gave to Ares' child to be her Titan weapon in the strife [of the Trojan War] that raveneth souls of men."
Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy 10. 51 ff :
"To one place Eris drew them all, the fearful Battle-queen, beheld of none, but cloaked in clouds blood-raining: on she stalked swelling the mighty roar of battle, now rushed through Troy's squadrons, through Akhaia's now; Phobos (Panic) and Deimos (Fear) still waited on her steps to make their father's [Ares'] sister glorious. From small to huge that Fury's stature grew; her arms of adamant were blood-besprent, the deadly lance she brandished reached the sky. Earth quaked beneath her feet: dread blasts of fire flamed from her mouth: her voice pealed thunder-like kindling strong men. Swift closed the fronts of fight drawn by a dread Power to the mighty work."
And so on and so forth.
Foresight: Eh. It depends on the time, place, author, etc. And as you said, it (theoretically) could have been a much less disastrous event that occurred, and not the Trojan War. Second, Greek gods were slaves to their passions, and some hold that they are only responsible for their own actions because of this. Aphrodite, promised Paris the most beautiful woman, who happened to be married. Aphrodite could have promised another woman, who was unmarried, but did not. Eris cast the apple in the first place, she might have known that it would end up the way it did. She probably wouldn't care because, she is a goddess of war, mortals aren't her concern, and she was really pissed off. Perhaps that makes her responsible, but then, if their foresight was so great, why didn't the other gods just invite Eris and avoid the whole shebang? Foresight works both ways in this case.
Eris' Role: Those passages, some of which are occasionally attributed to Enyo, who may or may not be Eris and is often the daughter of Ares, only demonstrate Eris' doing her job. The first even names Athena acting as a goddess of war, spurring the Trojans on, when she favored the other side (the Argives). So, I don't see the "problem", even if that is what you are getting at. As I recall, there wasn't a single deity NOT involved in the Trojan War, and it was as divisive among the gods as it was among mortals.
Greeks and Accuracy: :lol:
According to my own research on the topic, the split between Eris and Enyo was a latter day Classical invention, historically the two were considered the same. And I was merely pointing out she was involved in it as everyone else, for the "Eris is sweetness and light and couldn't have possibly forseen the Trojan War and so was really the innocent victim" crowd, of which there are a few still hanging around.
As for why the Gods (actually Zeus) didn't invite her despite knowing it was cause a huge problem, it was stated by Hesiod the plan was to cause a war in order to depopulate the earth, especially of troublesome demigods. So the whole war was a huge Xanatos Gambit on behalf of Zeus.
Quote from: Telarus on September 13, 2010, 12:43:42 AM
The priests of Bellona were called Bellonarii,
I was hoping they were called Bellonai... that way when they were invoking the Goddess they could have been "Full of Bellonai"
Quote from: Cain on September 13, 2010, 03:18:37 PM
According to my own research on the topic, the split between Eris and Enyo was a latter day Classical invention, historically the two were considered the same. And I was merely pointing out she was involved in it as everyone else, for the "Eris is sweetness and light and couldn't have possibly forseen the Trojan War and so was really the innocent victim" crowd, of which there are a few still hanging around.
As for why the Gods (actually Zeus) didn't invite her despite knowing it was cause a huge problem, it was stated by Hesiod the plan was to cause a war in order to depopulate the earth, especially of troublesome demigods. So the whole war was a huge Xanatos Gambit on behalf of Zeus.
Totally did not know that.
I will get around to reading Hesiod one of these days.
Quote from: Cain on September 13, 2010, 03:18:37 PM
According to my own research on the topic, the split between Eris and Enyo was a latter day Classical invention, historically the two were considered the same. And I was merely pointing out she was involved in it as everyone else, for the "Eris is sweetness and light and couldn't have possibly forseen the Trojan War and so was really the innocent victim" crowd, of which there are a few still hanging around.
As for why the Gods (actually Zeus) didn't invite her despite knowing it was cause a huge problem, it was stated by Hesiod the plan was to cause a war in order to depopulate the earth, especially of troublesome demigods. So the whole war was a huge Xanatos Gambit on behalf of Zeus.
Eris and Enyo: I agree that they were in fact the same, but depending on who you read you get differing accounts.
Hesiod: If you look at Homer, the implication is not really there (at least I don't see it that way). This may be because Homer was writing about the mortal (or semi-mortal, at any rate) heroes, and didn't want the gods to steal the limelight. Hesiod, on the other hand, wrote about the gods specifically. Also of note, Hesiod often comes across as a Zeus fanboy to me, and may or may not be considered an accurate representation of the whole population. The problem arises when we don't actually have access to much more about the Trojan War than those two, a few obscure references in Herodotus, some fragmented texts, and the writings of Plato, Aristotle, and later Greeks, and Roman authors. I'm sure I'm forgetting something as well, but I don't think it is that big. In my reading, Homer and Hesiod tend to contradict each other, Herodotus doesn't actually tell the story, and the later Greeks and especially the Romans are so far removed from the original event that it becomes like the Crusades to us.
Who caused the Trojan War?: Depends on what you are asking. In some way, Aphrodite, Eris, and Zeus are all to blame. Athena and Hera are less than innocent as well. Poseidon had his role in it, so too did Apollo. Even Paris, Menelaus, Agamemnon, and other kings of the Greek aggressor states can be blamed in some ways.
Zeus: There is a rather important point that you are skimming over though. in Homer, Zeus was favoring Troy as the victor of the war. Regardless of his intention, Homer's interpretation of Zeus makes it appear that he did not expect Troy to fall, or merely that he did not wish it to at least. If he had known the exact outcome, would he have risked such a plan when there are others that would cause him less personal dissatisfaction? I would argue that if Hesiod is to be believed, then the outcome was not entirely known, but rather that Zeus knew snubbing Eris would cause discord and suffering for mortals, and perhaps knew the likely scenario, but I personally find it hard to believe the fall of Troy was a "calculated loss" on his part.
Besides, everyone knows that "The Prettiest One" at a wedding is always the Bride. Can't blame Eris if the bitch trio tried to swipe her gift to the Bride for themselves.
:argh!:
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 13, 2010, 09:56:40 PM
Besides, everyone knows that "The Prettiest One" at a wedding is always the Bride. Can't blame Eris if the bitch trio tried to swipe her gift to the Bride for themselves.
:argh!:
:lulz:
Maybe the "Foresight" of the Gods only applied to mortal affairs?
Perhaps the Gods really cant predict each other actions, hence the fact that none of the Goddesses could predict who Paris would pick since they didnt know what the other Goddesses would offer.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 13, 2010, 09:46:26 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 13, 2010, 03:18:37 PM
According to my own research on the topic, the split between Eris and Enyo was a latter day Classical invention, historically the two were considered the same. And I was merely pointing out she was involved in it as everyone else, for the "Eris is sweetness and light and couldn't have possibly forseen the Trojan War and so was really the innocent victim" crowd, of which there are a few still hanging around.
As for why the Gods (actually Zeus) didn't invite her despite knowing it was cause a huge problem, it was stated by Hesiod the plan was to cause a war in order to depopulate the earth, especially of troublesome demigods. So the whole war was a huge Xanatos Gambit on behalf of Zeus.
Eris and Enyo: I agree that they were in fact the same, but depending on who you read you get differing accounts.
Hesiod: If you look at Homer, the implication is not really there (at least I don't see it that way). This may be because Homer was writing about the mortal (or semi-mortal, at any rate) heroes, and didn't want the gods to steal the limelight. Hesiod, on the other hand, wrote about the gods specifically. Also of note, Hesiod often comes across as a Zeus fanboy to me, and may or may not be considered an accurate representation of the whole population. The problem arises when we don't actually have access to much more about the Trojan War than those two, a few obscure references in Herodotus, some fragmented texts, and the writings of Plato, Aristotle, and later Greeks, and Roman authors. I'm sure I'm forgetting something as well, but I don't think it is that big. In my reading, Homer and Hesiod tend to contradict each other, Herodotus doesn't actually tell the story, and the later Greeks and especially the Romans are so far removed from the original event that it becomes like the Crusades to us.
Who caused the Trojan War?: Depends on what you are asking. In some way, Aphrodite, Eris, and Zeus are all to blame. Athena and Hera are less than innocent as well. Poseidon had his role in it, so too did Apollo. Even Paris, Menelaus, Agamemnon, and other kings of the Greek aggressor states can be blamed in some ways.
Zeus: There is a rather important point that you are skimming over though. in Homer, Zeus was favoring Troy as the victor of the war. Regardless of his intention, Homer's interpretation of Zeus makes it appear that he did not expect Troy to fall, or merely that he did not wish it to at least. If he had known the exact outcome, would he have risked such a plan when there are others that would cause him less personal dissatisfaction? I would argue that if Hesiod is to be believed, then the outcome was not entirely known, but rather that Zeus knew snubbing Eris would cause discord and suffering for mortals, and perhaps knew the likely scenario, but I personally find it hard to believe the fall of Troy was a "calculated loss" on his part.
To me, the Illiad seemed to heap it on Agememnon and Achilles as the main two at fault.
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on September 13, 2010, 10:15:13 PM
Maybe the "Foresight" of the Gods only applied to mortal affairs?
Perhaps the Gods really cant predict each other actions, hence the fact that none of the Goddesses could predict who Paris would pick since they didnt know what the other Goddesses would offer.
This makes some amount of sense-
For example, if the Gods could have foresight into each other's actions, Cronos could have said, "haha, ok, now give me the kid for real." Hera could have said, "I'm not going to marry you, you're just going to cheat on me all the time anyway." Zeus could have said, "Bitch, don't even think of chaining me up while I'm asleep. You know I'm going to get free anyway." And Artemis could have said, "Hey bro, I know that's Orion you want me to shoot." etc, etc...
While I'm tempted to respond to all of this ancient Greek (and one comic book) references, with a, "yeah but we're not ancient Greeks, what do you think" I'm enjoying these analyses of the myths.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 14, 2010, 10:42:00 PM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on September 13, 2010, 10:15:13 PM
Maybe the "Foresight" of the Gods only applied to mortal affairs?
Perhaps the Gods really cant predict each other actions, hence the fact that none of the Goddesses could predict who Paris would pick since they didnt know what the other Goddesses would offer.
This makes some amount of sense-
For example, if the Gods could have foresight into each other's actions, Cronos could have said, "haha, ok, now give me the kid for real." Hera could have said, "I'm not going to marry you, you're just going to cheat on me all the time anyway." Zeus could have said, "Bitch, don't even think of chaining me up while I'm asleep. You know I'm going to get free anyway." And Artemis could have said, "Hey bro, I know that's Orion you want me to shoot." etc, etc...
While I'm tempted to respond to all of this ancient Greek (and one comic book) references, with a, "yeah but we're not ancient Greeks, what do you think" I'm enjoying these analyses of the myths.
I'm a Classics major. I study dead languages and myths for most of my waking life. My perspective is most definitely colored by that fact. My current interest is comparing the stories of Hesiod's
Theogeny and the Babylonian
Enuma Elish, though I am currently in a class that is about the influence of Homer on modern films. Discussing mythology here lets me hear other people's opinions so I don't get stuck with a text book interpretation of something.
As for my personal take on Eris: She exists because I believe she does. My personal philosophy is that each of us lives in our own little reality. Big "R" Reality doesn't exist, but an infinite number of individual realities do. I believe Eris is a concept, a real being, a metaphor, the true goddess, and a sexy beast all at once. And for me that is all true. For others, she is just a metaphor, and in their reality, she is nothing more than that. And that doesn't make them wrong; because their beliefs are as valid as my own. Even if you are all just figments of my imagination, or I am a figment of yours.
And that's probably way more back story on me than anyone really wanted. I just felt like talking about myself just now.
Quote from: Faust on September 12, 2010, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Well if you want to take the ancient Greeks at their word when describing her. Wasn't the quote that the ancient Greeks weren't to be trusted with these kind of things.
In regards to old Greek Eris vs New Improved Discordian Eris I think of it this way.
Ancient Greeks talked alot about men overcoming their animal nature and also of man taming nature. They were trying to build an
ordered society upon the more "intellectual(cant think of a better word)" parts of humanity. Art, Philosophy, Literature, Athletics, even their warfare was refined. Greek democracy was an attempt to rise above the 2nd circuit "Me kill leader now me leader" mentality.
Keep in mind society wasnt like it is today, anyone at any time could decide "Fuck this ordered civilization shit" and go run off in the woods. In order for people to not do this they had to overcome their reptile brain and dedicate themselves to ideals like "order" and "civilization."
So Eris played on these more base natures of man. She took the form of a terrible monster bitch with a dagger in her tits, she worked through things like Barbarians and natural disasters to try and destroy the established order.
But today that wont work. Just look at the recent terrorist attacks, they havent weakened the power of the government they have
increased it. Thats because modern society is no longer working against peoples base natures its working
with them. The primary motives for being part of civilization are food(1st circuit) and not getting shot by the cops(2nd circuit). The biggest threats to the established order are of mans
higher nature. Comedy pokes fun at the absurdity of the system with a boldness no journalist who wants to keep his job(circuits 1 and 2 again folks) would dare. Governments arent afraid of warlords or terrorists but of intellectuals. People like Leary, MLK, ect ect.
So Eris has taken the form of Discordianism. With its bar stool pseud-meta-physics, Dada humor and guerrilla surrealism it represents the greatest threat to order today, people
thinking. And getting high, the line is fuzzy.
/rant
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on September 15, 2010, 04:01:31 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 12, 2010, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Well if you want to take the ancient Greeks at their word when describing her. Wasn't the quote that the ancient Greeks weren't to be trusted with these kind of things.
In regards to old Greek Eris vs New Improved Discordian Eris I think of it this way.
Ancient Greeks talked alot about men overcoming their animal nature and also of man taming nature. They were trying to build an ordered society upon the more "intellectual(cant think of a better word)" parts of humanity. Art, Philosophy, Literature, Athletics, even their warfare was refined. Greek democracy was an attempt to rise above the 2nd circuit "Me kill leader now me leader" mentality.
Keep in mind society wasnt like it is today, anyone at any time could decide "Fuck this ordered civilization shit" and go run off in the woods. In order for people to not do this they had to overcome their reptile brain and dedicate themselves to ideals like "order" and "civilization."
So Eris played on these more base natures of man. She took the form of a terrible monster bitch with a dagger in her tits, she worked through things like Barbarians and natural disasters to try and destroy the established order.
But today that wont work. Just look at the recent terrorist attacks, they havent weakened the power of the government they have increased it. Thats because modern society is no longer working against peoples base natures its working with them. The primary motives for being part of civilization are food(1st circuit) and not getting shot by the cops(2nd circuit). The biggest threats to the established order are of mans higher nature. Comedy pokes fun at the absurdity of the system with a boldness no journalist who wants to keep his job(circuits 1 and 2 again folks) would dare. Governments arent afraid of warlords or terrorists but of intellectuals. People like Leary, MLK, ect ect.
So Eris has taken the form of Discordianism. With its bar stool pseud-meta-physics, Dada humor and guerrilla surrealism it represents the greatest threat to order today, people thinking. And getting high, the line is fuzzy.
/rant
:facepalm:
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 15, 2010, 04:06:56 AM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on September 15, 2010, 04:01:31 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 12, 2010, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Well if you want to take the ancient Greeks at their word when describing her. Wasn't the quote that the ancient Greeks weren't to be trusted with these kind of things.
In regards to old Greek Eris vs New Improved Discordian Eris I think of it this way.
Ancient Greeks talked alot about men overcoming their animal nature and also of man taming nature. They were trying to build an ordered society upon the more "intellectual(cant think of a better word)" parts of humanity. Art, Philosophy, Literature, Athletics, even their warfare was refined. Greek democracy was an attempt to rise above the 2nd circuit "Me kill leader now me leader" mentality.
Keep in mind society wasnt like it is today, anyone at any time could decide "Fuck this ordered civilization shit" and go run off in the woods. In order for people to not do this they had to overcome their reptile brain and dedicate themselves to ideals like "order" and "civilization."
So Eris played on these more base natures of man. She took the form of a terrible monster bitch with a dagger in her tits, she worked through things like Barbarians and natural disasters to try and destroy the established order.
But today that wont work. Just look at the recent terrorist attacks, they havent weakened the power of the government they have increased it. Thats because modern society is no longer working against peoples base natures its working with them. The primary motives for being part of civilization are food(1st circuit) and not getting shot by the cops(2nd circuit). The biggest threats to the established order are of mans higher nature. Comedy pokes fun at the absurdity of the system with a boldness no journalist who wants to keep his job(circuits 1 and 2 again folks) would dare. Governments arent afraid of warlords or terrorists but of intellectuals. People like Leary, MLK, ect ect.
So Eris has taken the form of Discordianism. With its bar stool pseud-meta-physics, Dada humor and guerrilla surrealism it represents the greatest threat to order today, people thinking. And getting high, the line is fuzzy.
/rant
:facepalm:
Pinealist though it may come across, bear in mind that this is in the Principia Discordia discussion section, and since I am asking what other Discordians what their thoughts on Eris are, this is an acceptable response from Glittersnatch.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 15, 2010, 04:12:59 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 15, 2010, 04:06:56 AM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on September 15, 2010, 04:01:31 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 12, 2010, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Well if you want to take the ancient Greeks at their word when describing her. Wasn't the quote that the ancient Greeks weren't to be trusted with these kind of things.
In regards to old Greek Eris vs New Improved Discordian Eris I think of it this way.
Ancient Greeks talked alot about men overcoming their animal nature and also of man taming nature. They were trying to build an ordered society upon the more "intellectual(cant think of a better word)" parts of humanity. Art, Philosophy, Literature, Athletics, even their warfare was refined. Greek democracy was an attempt to rise above the 2nd circuit "Me kill leader now me leader" mentality.
Keep in mind society wasnt like it is today, anyone at any time could decide "Fuck this ordered civilization shit" and go run off in the woods. In order for people to not do this they had to overcome their reptile brain and dedicate themselves to ideals like "order" and "civilization."
So Eris played on these more base natures of man. She took the form of a terrible monster bitch with a dagger in her tits, she worked through things like Barbarians and natural disasters to try and destroy the established order.
But today that wont work. Just look at the recent terrorist attacks, they havent weakened the power of the government they have increased it. Thats because modern society is no longer working against peoples base natures its working with them. The primary motives for being part of civilization are food(1st circuit) and not getting shot by the cops(2nd circuit). The biggest threats to the established order are of mans higher nature. Comedy pokes fun at the absurdity of the system with a boldness no journalist who wants to keep his job(circuits 1 and 2 again folks) would dare. Governments arent afraid of warlords or terrorists but of intellectuals. People like Leary, MLK, ect ect.
So Eris has taken the form of Discordianism. With its bar stool pseud-meta-physics, Dada humor and guerrilla surrealism it represents the greatest threat to order today, people thinking. And getting high, the line is fuzzy.
/rant
:facepalm:
Pinealist though it may come across, bear in mind that this is in the Principia Discordia discussion section, and since I am asking what other Discordians what their thoughts on Eris are, this is an acceptable response from Glittersnatch.
Not my face palming reason:
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 15, 2010, 03:13:09 AM
I'm a Classics major.
Should clarify my previous post: Athens was really the only place that the things in that post apply to. Not all Greeks were Athenian and shared their world view. In fact, most Greeks were not Athenian. Homer, for one, was not Athenian. Second of all, pre-Plato's era, Athens didn't even really fit the mold of what we consider to be "Greek".
I tend to face palm whenever anyone uses the term "Greek" in the same thought that use "democracy", because democracy was the exception and not the rule in Greece (and there were democracies through out the Mediterranean area, and a number in the territories controlled by Persia as well, so democracy isn't even really an Athenian exclusive concept).
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 15, 2010, 04:24:39 AM
Should clarify my previous post: Athens was really the only place that the things in that post apply to. Not all Greeks were Athenian and shared their world view. In fact, most Greeks were not Athenian. Homer, for one, was not Athenian. Second of all, pre-Plato's era, Athens didn't even really fit the mold of what we consider to be "Greek".
I tend to face palm whenever anyone uses the term "Greek" in the same thought that use "democracy", because democracy was the exception and not the rule in Greece (and there were democracies through out the Mediterranean area, and a number in the territories controlled by Persia as well, so democracy isn't even really an Athenian exclusive concept).
Thanks for the clarification- I did actually think you were attacking the Discordian content of the post (due to references to the circuits and Dada). Though I think that your historical correction aside, the observations in there might not all be distinctly Athenian. Sparta was also a society that imposed order, for example. Just a different kind of order. They also had "refined" athletics and philosophy, (maybe not much in the way of what we would consider fine arts, excepting dancing) and politics, etc, even though they were of a militant bent. You could also make the argument that they sought to elevate humanity over animal nature. The untrained soldier gives in to fear, and then he gives in to instinct, and is no better than an animal. Come back a hero or on your shield. An animal has the options of come back alive, or come back as predator feces.
A bit of a tangent, but I think that even though the details of his post may be Athenian specific, the commonalities and even the specifics that may differ don't detract from his observations. He used (Athenian) Greece as an example, but could have equally applied to the Persian or Roman Empires, Egypt, Sumer, etc... we just happen to be using a Greek goddess as a reference point as opposed to a reinterpretation of Set or some sort of daeva servant of Ahriman.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 15, 2010, 04:06:56 AM
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on September 15, 2010, 04:01:31 AM
Quote from: Faust on September 12, 2010, 01:47:41 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 08:46:50 PM
Eris is a black clad blood soaked goddess of war, destruction, strife, and discord.
By that descriptions, no one would be interested in her except psychopaths.
Well if you want to take the ancient Greeks at their word when describing her. Wasn't the quote that the ancient Greeks weren't to be trusted with these kind of things.
In regards to old Greek Eris vs New Improved Discordian Eris I think of it this way.
Ancient Greeks talked alot about men overcoming their animal nature and also of man taming nature. They were trying to build an ordered society upon the more "intellectual(cant think of a better word)" parts of humanity. Art, Philosophy, Literature, Athletics, even their warfare was refined. Greek democracy was an attempt to rise above the 2nd circuit "Me kill leader now me leader" mentality.
Keep in mind society wasnt like it is today, anyone at any time could decide "Fuck this ordered civilization shit" and go run off in the woods. In order for people to not do this they had to overcome their reptile brain and dedicate themselves to ideals like "order" and "civilization."
So Eris played on these more base natures of man. She took the form of a terrible monster bitch with a dagger in her tits, she worked through things like Barbarians and natural disasters to try and destroy the established order.
But today that wont work. Just look at the recent terrorist attacks, they havent weakened the power of the government they have increased it. Thats because modern society is no longer working against peoples base natures its working with them. The primary motives for being part of civilization are food(1st circuit) and not getting shot by the cops(2nd circuit). The biggest threats to the established order are of mans higher nature. Comedy pokes fun at the absurdity of the system with a boldness no journalist who wants to keep his job(circuits 1 and 2 again folks) would dare. Governments arent afraid of warlords or terrorists but of intellectuals. People like Leary, MLK, ect ect.
So Eris has taken the form of Discordianism. With its bar stool pseud-meta-physics, Dada humor and guerrilla surrealism it represents the greatest threat to order today, people thinking. And getting high, the line is fuzzy.
/rant
:facepalm:
lol u mad?
23pinaelfnordskiddoo!!11!one
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 15, 2010, 07:26:43 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 15, 2010, 04:24:39 AM
Should clarify my previous post: Athens was really the only place that the things in that post apply to. Not all Greeks were Athenian and shared their world view. In fact, most Greeks were not Athenian. Homer, for one, was not Athenian. Second of all, pre-Plato's era, Athens didn't even really fit the mold of what we consider to be "Greek".
I tend to face palm whenever anyone uses the term "Greek" in the same thought that use "democracy", because democracy was the exception and not the rule in Greece (and there were democracies through out the Mediterranean area, and a number in the territories controlled by Persia as well, so democracy isn't even really an Athenian exclusive concept).
Thanks for the clarification- I did actually think you were attacking the Discordian content of the post (due to references to the circuits and Dada). Though I think that your historical correction aside, the observations in there might not all be distinctly Athenian. Sparta was also a society that imposed order, for example. Just a different kind of order. They also had "refined" athletics and philosophy, (maybe not much in the way of what we would consider fine arts, excepting dancing) and politics, etc, even though they were of a militant bent. You could also make the argument that they sought to elevate humanity over animal nature. The untrained soldier gives in to fear, and then he gives in to instinct, and is no better than an animal. Come back a hero or on your shield. An animal has the options of come back alive, or come back as predator feces.
A bit of a tangent, but I think that even though the details of his post may be Athenian specific, the commonalities and even the specifics that may differ don't detract from his observations. He used (Athenian) Greece as an example, but could have equally applied to the Persian or Roman Empires, Egypt, Sumer, etc... we just happen to be using a Greek goddess as a reference point as opposed to a reinterpretation of Set or some sort of daeva servant of Ahriman.
While you are right about Sparta imposing a kind of order, you are slightly off in your ideas. Spartan philosophy was very different from Athenian philosophy. Corinth, Thebes, Arcadia, Ionia, and elsewhere were different from both. This most certainly affects the way that each views Eris, which is why I take issue with the whole idea. If we looked at it from a different point of view, say a Roman one, then they would have a much different view of Eris than the Athenians/Greeks (which they did, she was not necessarily the ghastly figure Glittersnatch is portraying).
The problem is that we have a lack of sources. Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus, fragments, and then Athenian philosophers and Hellenistic Romans and Greeks. I will try to dig out some other sources and compare notes.
I don't really think the freaks that wrote the PD studied the Classics. I also don't think that the Eris of Discordianism really has much (if anything) to do with Historical Eris.... other than as a joke.
That being said, the Greeks really didn't have hot dog buns until well after the Trojan war, so I may be wrong.
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 15, 2010, 03:12:57 PM
I don't really think the freaks that wrote the PD studied the Classics. I also don't think that the Eris of Discordianism really has much (if anything) to do with Historical Eris.... other than as a joke.
That being said, the Greeks really didn't have hot dog buns until well after the Trojan war, so I may be wrong.
True, but I'm liking the tangent, and if historical Eris colors the view of an individual Discordian, it's a perspective that I would like to understand more and compare.
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 15, 2010, 03:12:57 PM
I don't really think the freaks that wrote the PD studied the Classics. I also don't think that the Eris of Discordianism really has much (if anything) to do with Historical Eris.... other than as a joke.
That being said, the Greeks really didn't have hot dog buns until well after the Trojan war, so I may be wrong.
Well, the Greeks didn't have Hot Dog buns, it's true. The gods did though. I have discovered proof that the "Ambrosia and Nectar" of the gods was nothing more than a Chicago Hot Dog (with bun) and a large Pepsi. True stuff.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 15, 2010, 05:31:20 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 15, 2010, 03:12:57 PM
I don't really think the freaks that wrote the PD studied the Classics. I also don't think that the Eris of Discordianism really has much (if anything) to do with Historical Eris.... other than as a joke.
That being said, the Greeks really didn't have hot dog buns until well after the Trojan war, so I may be wrong.
True, but I'm liking the tangent, and if historical Eris colors the view of an individual Discordian, it's a perspective that I would like to understand more and compare.
Hence, why I brought it up, of course. :)
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 15, 2010, 03:12:57 PM
I don't really think the freaks that wrote the PD studied the Classics. I also don't think that the Eris of Discordianism really has much (if anything) to do with Historical Eris.... other than as a joke.
That being said, the Greeks really didn't have hot dog buns until well after the Trojan war, so I may be wrong.
Bellona's depictions were distinguished from Minerva's by the addition of a Parazonium (Roman Officer's Short Sword/Dagger of Office), which is traditionally worn tied or hung between the breasts of the officer's breastplate. [Paraphrased from some random Ancient Coins website]
I think that Greg, Kerry, or RAW knew a lot more than they let on.
Wouldn't the story of the Golden Apple have been fairly obscure prior to discordianism? It's not something I ever read about going through the mythology section at the library at least.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on September 16, 2010, 07:01:52 AM
Wouldn't the story of the Golden Apple have been fairly obscure prior to discordianism? It's not something I ever read about going through the mythology section at the library at least.
No, actually that's a fairly well known one, at least in my experience. Only thing I heard about Eris prior to hearing about Discordianism.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on September 16, 2010, 07:01:52 AM
Wouldn't the story of the Golden Apple have been fairly obscure prior to discordianism? It's not something I ever read about going through the mythology section at the library at least.
It was the Greek equivalent of the Cain and Abel story. It was their explanation of why people went around killing each other.
there are golden apples in a bunch of greek myths, not all of them feature Our Lady of Discord.
the way I read it, they're often used as a symbol for human desire.
I've decided to include this as part of the Jack of all forums challenge (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=26342.0)
I saw "Salt" and thought, oh, hi Eris.
So, okay.
If we ponder for a moment, what if the Greek Gods _aren't_ real, as few now believe they are, but that the Trojan War did happen, what then caused the Trojan War?
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 18, 2010, 03:25:37 AM
So, okay.
If we ponder for a moment, what if the Greek Gods _aren't_ real, as few now believe they are, but that the Trojan War did happen, what then caused the Trojan War?
Paris fucking Helen.
XDDD True that.
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 18, 2010, 03:51:35 AM
XDDD True that.
Just out of curiosity. How old are you?
Also, tell me everything you know about Pop-tarts and George Bush.
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 18, 2010, 03:25:37 AM
So, okay.
If we ponder for a moment, what if the Greek Gods _aren't_ real, as few now believe they are, but that the Trojan War did happen, what then caused the Trojan War?
I'm going to say the same thing that causes every war. The Spartans and the Argives got their Peleponessian allies together and decided to go fuck Troy's shit up because it was wealthy/powerful/far away. From a purely historical view, there is no reason to accept the existence of Paris, Helen, Menelaus, or the rest of the mortals involved, at least not as far as their roles in the Trojan War are concerned. There is archaeological evidence to suggest that Troy DID exist at one point, and stopped existing/was destroyed at around the time the Trojan War is said to have taken place, so it would not be out of the question.
Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on September 18, 2010, 04:41:46 AM
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 18, 2010, 03:51:35 AM
XDDD True that.
Just out of curiosity. How old are you?
Also, tell me everything you know about Pop-tarts and George Bush.
Not yet 25. If that helps.
Pop-tarts are yummy if chocolate is involved. Pop-Tart is not a chocolate pop-tart. Thus he is absolutely lame. And the worst spammer ever. (Enough to even annoy a forum FULL of spammers, XD) And I laughed at his introduction post. (I went over all this when I introduced myself. Ask Doktor Howl if you're uncertain.)
As far as George Bush is concerned, I haven't given a rat's ass about anything about him since he said, "We must protect our internets from terrorists" or some other such thing. And I think that was pretty early on, and I haven't paid attention since.
I try not to watch dumb people too much.
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 18, 2010, 03:25:37 AM
So, okay.
If we ponder for a moment, what if the Greek Gods _aren't_ real, as few now believe they are, but that the Trojan War did happen, what then caused the Trojan War?
The Trojan War actually is not mythology specifically, but legend. Mythology is a story that tries to make sense out of the universe and explain why things are the way they are. Legends are stories that are loosely based on history.
For example in the Bible, the Creation account is mythology, but Exodus is legend. It might not be 100% true, but there is some sort of history to it. So while Jehovah is present in both Genesis and Exodus, Genesis hinges on the existence of Jehovah, whereas Exodus does not. I find it kinda hard to swallow that God would tell Moses, "Tell Pharaoh to let you go, and I'm going to force him to say no so I have a legitimate reason to do terrible shit to them. Cuz I'm a dick. By the way, worship me or die." But the idea that there were a group of Hebrews that left Egypt is more reasonable when you take that out of the equation.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 20, 2010, 12:40:28 AM
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 18, 2010, 03:25:37 AM
So, okay.
If we ponder for a moment, what if the Greek Gods _aren't_ real, as few now believe they are, but that the Trojan War did happen, what then caused the Trojan War?
The Trojan War actually is not mythology specifically, but legend. Mythology is a story that tries to make sense out of the universe and explain why things are the way they are. Legends are stories that are loosely based on history.
For example in the Bible, the Creation account is mythology, but Exodus is legend. It might not be 100% true, but there is some sort of history to it. So while Jehovah is present in both Genesis and Exodus, Genesis hinges on the existence of Jehovah, whereas Exodus does not. I find it kinda hard to swallow that God would tell Moses, "Tell Pharaoh to let you go, and I'm going to force him to say no so I have a legitimate reason to do terrible shit to them. Cuz I'm a dick. By the way, worship me or die." But the idea that there were a group of Hebrews that left Egypt is more reasonable when you take that out of the equation.
That makes perfect sense though...if you believe in a malevolent God.
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 19, 2010, 03:50:07 AM
Pop-Tart is not a chocolate pop-tart. Thus he is absolutely lame. And the worst spammer ever. (Enough to even annoy a forum FULL of spammers, XD)
quick note for posterity: spamming is the Nick Jr. of internet trolling. Few people here who would identify as trolls actually practice spamming. In certain situations, it can be a good tool, but if there's a vaguely competent mod team you just end up wasting your own time.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 20, 2010, 12:40:28 AM
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 18, 2010, 03:25:37 AM
So, okay.
If we ponder for a moment, what if the Greek Gods _aren't_ real, as few now believe they are, but that the Trojan War did happen, what then caused the Trojan War?
The Trojan War actually is not mythology specifically, but legend. Mythology is a story that tries to make sense out of the universe and explain why things are the way they are. Legends are stories that are loosely based on history.
For example in the Bible, the Creation account is mythology, but Exodus is legend. It might not be 100% true, but there is some sort of history to it. So while Jehovah is present in both Genesis and Exodus, Genesis hinges on the existence of Jehovah, whereas Exodus does not. I find it kinda hard to swallow that God would tell Moses, "Tell Pharaoh to let you go, and I'm going to force him to say no so I have a legitimate reason to do terrible shit to them. Cuz I'm a dick. By the way, worship me or die." But the idea that there were a group of Hebrews that left Egypt is more reasonable when you take that out of the equation.
Still not sure Exodus is based on history... loose or not ;-)
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 20, 2010, 05:28:45 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 20, 2010, 12:40:28 AM
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 18, 2010, 03:25:37 AM
So, okay.
If we ponder for a moment, what if the Greek Gods _aren't_ real, as few now believe they are, but that the Trojan War did happen, what then caused the Trojan War?
The Trojan War actually is not mythology specifically, but legend. Mythology is a story that tries to make sense out of the universe and explain why things are the way they are. Legends are stories that are loosely based on history.
For example in the Bible, the Creation account is mythology, but Exodus is legend. It might not be 100% true, but there is some sort of history to it. So while Jehovah is present in both Genesis and Exodus, Genesis hinges on the existence of Jehovah, whereas Exodus does not. I find it kinda hard to swallow that God would tell Moses, "Tell Pharaoh to let you go, and I'm going to force him to say no so I have a legitimate reason to do terrible shit to them. Cuz I'm a dick. By the way, worship me or die." But the idea that there were a group of Hebrews that left Egypt is more reasonable when you take that out of the equation.
Still not sure Exodus is based on history... loose or not ;-)
Fair enough but they all had to come from somewhere.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 20, 2010, 06:51:20 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on September 20, 2010, 05:28:45 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 20, 2010, 12:40:28 AM
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 18, 2010, 03:25:37 AM
So, okay.
If we ponder for a moment, what if the Greek Gods _aren't_ real, as few now believe they are, but that the Trojan War did happen, what then caused the Trojan War?
The Trojan War actually is not mythology specifically, but legend. Mythology is a story that tries to make sense out of the universe and explain why things are the way they are. Legends are stories that are loosely based on history.
For example in the Bible, the Creation account is mythology, but Exodus is legend. It might not be 100% true, but there is some sort of history to it. So while Jehovah is present in both Genesis and Exodus, Genesis hinges on the existence of Jehovah, whereas Exodus does not. I find it kinda hard to swallow that God would tell Moses, "Tell Pharaoh to let you go, and I'm going to force him to say no so I have a legitimate reason to do terrible shit to them. Cuz I'm a dick. By the way, worship me or die." But the idea that there were a group of Hebrews that left Egypt is more reasonable when you take that out of the equation.
Still not sure Exodus is based on history... loose or not ;-)
Fair enough but they all had to come from somewhere.
I heard an interesting theory.
There was a pharaoh whos name I cant remember. This pharaoh for some reason decided that the Egyptians had too many gods, so, he declared that there was only
one true god. This was horribly unpopular with the people and especially with the priests so he ended up appointing alot of new priests who would teach his new monotheistic religion. When he died the next pharaoh gave in to the will of the people and reinstated the old religion.
Now for anyone who had honestly converted to the New religion and especially for the New priests this was horrible.
The theory I heard is that Moses was actually a priest of the unpopular religion, and that the "exodus" was him leading the oppressed followers of this religion to a place where they could practice it in peace. Over time this religion evolved into Judaism.
[Warning: This got dumped in my head during my Art History course. You've been warned.]
That would be Akhenaten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten) (originally Ahmenhotep IV, he renamed himself after his new deity), who posited the existence of a being ("Aten") that "was like a Sun unto the Stars, or a GOD unto the gods."
He did completely overhaul the Egyptian religious system (which had the curious effect of completely changing the artistic styles in use in Egypt at the time). The statues of Nefertiti are especially important to note here, as these were created to be viewed "in the round" (from all angles). Previous to Akhenaten's reign, statues were created from squared blocks of stone. The profiles of each angle were inscribed on each side of the block, and then carved downwards until the basic form was 'uncovered', and then detailed. This led to very stiff poses, and art that was optimally viewed from the front. Compare:
Old Style:
(http://www.touregypt.net/images/touregypt/egyptexodus2.jpg)
Akhenaten Era (Bust of his wife Nefertiti from the 'Amarna Period'):
(http://www.cameraphonesplaza.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/givori-nefertiti-luxury-cell-phones-01.jpg)
Here's a pic of Akhenaten, his wife and daughters (the sun disk represents Aten):
(http://theoldgiftshop.com/images/replica/E077S2.jpg)
He was a strange cat (no really, his statues don't look like any other Pharoh, very weird proportions):
(http://www.historywiz.com/images/egypt/akhenaten.jpg)
The above art has lead to countless "Alien" theories, but this is the first time I've heard the theory that Moses was an ex-priest of Aten.
The dates for the Exodus are have a lot of controversy around them (and Ratatosk alluded to the story that the Exodus was made up whole cloth while the Hebrews were in captivity in Mesopotamia/Babylon). But I did find (a christian site) that mentions archeological data from the city of Amarna (Akhenaten's period was termed the "Amarna Period" because most relics were found there). I only skimmed it: http://www.crivoice.org/exodusdate.html
Interesting stuff.
Akhenaten was followed by his son, Tutankhamen (born Tutankhaten), who was followed by his General, Ai. THen someone else took over after Ai. Several generations later you had Rameses III (I think it was III) who is usually the one credited with being the pharoah in Exodus. Atenism would have been wiped out well before Moses, I think. However, the idea might have inspired him a little.
I had heard a hypothesis that the main reason that Moses chose monotheism was that all Hebrews would be united under one god and help solidify their cultural identity.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on September 22, 2010, 12:13:18 AM
Akhenaten was followed by his son, Tutankhamen (born Tutankhaten), who was followed by his General, Ai. THen someone else took over after Ai. Several generations later you had Rameses III (I think it was III) who is usually the one credited with being the pharoah in Exodus. Atenism would have been wiped out well before Moses, I think. However, the idea might have inspired him a little.
I had heard a hypothesis that the main reason that Moses chose monotheism was that all Hebrews would be united under one god and help solidify their cultural identity.
Well, the larger issue is that the supposed timeline which puts Exodus in the 1500s BC is fraught with issues, IF the Hebrews had anything to do with Egypt it may have been well before and simply manipulated through stories over time. As for Moses picking Monotheism... we don't know that he did, or that he existed... Hell we don't really have evidence that Hebrews existed as a coherent nation until almost a thousand years after the traditional Exodus date.
The whole damn book is screwy, :argh!:
Another point to be made is that Judaism actually outdates the Egyptians. Or at least, the Great Exodus and Moses anyway. Moses came from a long line of ancestry and legend that was the beginning of Judaism, and (I could be wrong on this) but I _think_ the first major Hebrew legend and perhaps the beginning of the Hebrews themselves was the story of Joseph and his twelve (dickhead) brothers. Egypt existed in that story, was actually involved in it. (In case you don't know, it's where Joseph is sold as a slave to the Pharaoh by his brothers, is imprisoned for allegedly being a pervert, then predicts seven years of feast and seven years of famine, and the Pharaoh finds out and appoints Joseph to a high position, where he is able to save Egypt and the surrounding nations from dying during the seven years of famine.) Anyway, since that time Hebrews and Egyptians were closely connected, but there was a shift in leadership, and the Egyptians started making Hebrew slaves, and THEN well after that we have Moses.
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 24, 2010, 03:58:14 AM
Another point to be made is that Judaism actually outdates the Egyptians. Or at least, the Great Exodus and Moses anyway. Moses came from a long line of ancestry and legend that was the beginning of Judaism, and (I could be wrong on this) but I _think_ the first major Hebrew legend and perhaps the beginning of the Hebrews themselves was the story of Joseph and his twelve (dickhead) brothers. Egypt existed in that story, was actually involved in it. (In case you don't know, it's where Joseph is sold as a slave to the Pharaoh by his brothers, is imprisoned for allegedly being a pervert, then predicts seven years of feast and seven years of famine, and the Pharaoh finds out and appoints Joseph to a high position, where he is able to save Egypt and the surrounding nations from dying during the seven years of famine.) Anyway, since that time Hebrews and Egyptians were closely connected, but there was a shift in leadership, and the Egyptians started making Hebrew slaves, and THEN well after that we have Moses.
Not sure I follow. The way I understand it is the only way you can hypothesize that Judaism is older than Egypt is continuity form the Sumerians via Abraham (who came from Ur). But even then, it would go from a progression of Sumerian Polytheism>Babylonian (Semitic) Polytheism>Hebrew Polytheism>Hebrew Henotheism>ancient Hebrew monotheism (early Judaism)
But the monotheistic aspects of Judaism preclude the Exodus. Mostly this is a response to this: "The theory I heard is that Moses was actually a priest of the unpopular religion, and that the "exodus" was him leading the oppressed followers of this religion to a place where they could practice it in peace. Over time this religion evolved into Judaism," pointing out the Judaism came before the Exodus, it didn't evolve from the Exodus.
I've got to apply my doubt, there. Back then, the "Shekinah" was still a big part of the Judaic tradition. In fact, getting back to Eris and the snubbed divine female, Asherah(later identified with Astarte)/Shekinah, the Queen of Heaven, was a major player all the way up through pre-reformation Jerusalem. Most of Deuteronomy is political propaganda applauding the destruction of Asherah's temples and banning the burning of cannabis to the queen of heaven "on the high places". Interesting enough, YWHW spoke to Moses through the Shekinah/Pillar-of-Smoke, and it was this same "Pillar of Smoke" that led Moses and his tribe through the wilderness. Modern theology always discards Her identity as a separate Consciousness. In 'The Woman's Book of Myths and Secrets', Feminist Scholar Barbara Walker explains:
the Old Testament 'Ashera' is translated 'grove', without any explanation that the sacred
grove represented the Goddess' genital center, birthplace of all things. In the matriarchal period,
Hebrews worshiped the Goddess in groves (1 Kings 14:23), later cut down by patriarchal
reformers who burned the bones of Ashera's priests on their own altars (2 Chronicles 24:4-5).
The Songs of Solomon are also regarded as hymn to the Queen of Heaven. Solomon was pretty obviously involved in the Asherah cult once you know the above symbolism.
SOLOMON LOVED YAHWEH; HE FOLLOWED THE PRECEPTS OF DAVID HIS FATHER, EXCEPT THAT HE OFFERED SACRIFICE AND INCENSE ON THE HIGH PLACES. (I Kings 3:3)
and
WHEN SOLOMON GREW OLD HIS WIVES SWAYED HIS HEART TO OTHER GODS; AND HIS HEART WAS NOT WHOLLY WITH YAHWEH HIS GOD AS HIS FATHER DAVID'S HAD BEEN. SOLOMON BECAME A FOLLOWER OF ASTARTE, THE GODDESS OF THE SIDONIANS. (I Kings 11:4-5)
Interesting connections have been recorded by Chris Bennet between these practices and the similar practices of the Scythians. Doubly interesting if you follow my links of the Eris/Enyo-Ma/Bellona/Rhea Goddess to the Scythian Tabiti/Krona-Rhea, and also realize that the Semitic tribes traded and warred with the Scythians (who they knew them as the "Ashkenaz" people). The tent ceremonies practiced by the Scythians (as noted by Herotodus) also have quite a lot in common with the tent ceremonies practiced by Moses (raising the Shekinah/Pillar of Smoke within the Tent of the Tabernacle).
So....Solomon was effectively worshiping Eris when he turned away from YHWH?
Depends on how 'universal' you want to make the Eris goddess-form. It's hard not to come to that conclusion when you realize that the Eris(Strife/Chaos) portrayed in the Greek myths by Name was esoterically identified by the cults with all these goddesses that hold the title "Queen of Heaven", especially the Cybele/Enyo-Ma/Rhea core personality. I don't have the direct historical links to make that connection explicit, as I haven't looked into how the Asherah/Astarte cult was politically involved with neighboring kingdoms or cults.
But, yeah, basically. See the first Commandment of the Pentabarf. :fnord:
Perhaps Pho could clear things up on this issue?
Nope, sorry. I haven't gotten to cross-cultural mythology yet, aside from Greek/Roman (does that even count?). There is a large body of work suggesting a similar idea though. I believe I found some by googling "dark goddess" many years ago. I have neither the time nor the inclination to revisit that topic now, though.
Alrighty.
I guess you just never know who has the best tidbits of information :lulz:
Quote from: The Great Pope of OUTSIDE on September 26, 2010, 04:08:48 PM
So....Solomon was effectively worshiping Eris when he turned away from YHWH?
Also, having read up on the early worship of Asherah, I wouldn't say he was "turning away from YHWH", but that the propagandists who recorded those events gave that spin to it. From the Cabalist stuff I've read, what the YHWH priests had a problem with was worshiping other deities "above" him. From a review of "
household and family religion in antiquity, edited by John Bodel and Saul M. Olyan":
QuoteNext comes the first of the chapters on Mesopotamia. Here, Karel van de Toorn makes a distinction between the god the family worships and devotion to one's ancestors. The family's god tended not to be one of the great Mesopotamian deities, like Anu, Enlil, and Ishtar, because those were too grand. The family gods might intercede on the family's behalf with the great gods, but the great gods were beyond the family's immediate reach. These chapters were eye-openers.
In the next chapter, Daniel E. Fleming looks at how households integrate private and public social lives, the role of the god Dagan, and asks questions about the family's ancestor worship. I found myself lost in the Dagan area and the next chapter, on Ugarit, filled with transliterated cuneiform (?) will require greater concentration at a later date. So I skipped to the sections on Greece and Rome, which continued the theme of ancestor worship coupled with worship of another set of gods, and then went back to those on Egypt, which seems to have included the dead among the gods, and then Israel/Judaea. It was the last that startled me.
Judaism is a monotheistic religion, although the Commandment to hold no gods above Yahweh suggests that there really were other gods. Still, I thought, the ancient Hebrews would all have worshiped Yahweh, even if they sometimes put him a level with some of the Babylonian deities. Apparently, I was wrong. As is suitable to a book about the distinction between public and private forms of worship, Yahweh was above the household gods on a national or extra-familial level, but pre-exile Hebrew families did not necessarily perform any rituals to honor Yahweh. Instead, in times of trouble other gods, like the mother-goddess Asherah were invoked to mediate with Yahweh. Requests from the family could also be made to Baal or spirits of the dead, instead of Yahweh, since families chose their own family gods. The chapter "Family Religion in Ancient Israel" is by Rainer Albertz.
Similarly, we have the 5 Apostles, especially St. Gulick (the "messenger", who is a
roach).
The Blessing of St. Gulik:
O blessed St Gulik, Guru of the Ganja, beloved of hitchhikers, protector of dumpster divers, and others of much ilk, ride shotgun with me. May the highway patrol be distracted by shiny objects. May the axe murderers give me a smile and a nod and let me go on my way. May the sun shine on my road, except when it rains. May the beers be cold and my fellow travelers beautiful. May the weed stay lit and most powerful. May the rental car be blessed and brought into your fold. And if you don't listen to prayer, then to hell with you.
She's the one who keeps stealing my socks! :argh!: