This is still unpolished and unfinished, mostly. It's a little incoherent, but I think it's time to put it out here.
The search for Truth began millennia ago. The world is big and scary, and it doesn't always make sense. But our ancestors tiny minds couldn't comprehend that thought. It had to make sense, they just didn't understand it, yet.
In the ancient world, people knew that your feet touched the ground and that you couldn't walk off the edge of a cliff or you'd fall down to the ground. It was the way things were. The gods were responsible for earthquakes, volcanoes, weather, and any other phenomena not readily explainable.
In the modern world, we have the laws of physics that tell us that a force called gravity keeps our feet on the ground and makes us fall. Plate tectonics, seismic activity, atmospheric forces, and other factors are responsible for what used to be the handiwork of the gods.
But the fundamental question remains: Why? Why does gravity work? Why do tectonic plates shift? Why did humans end up with the physiological traits they have? We are really no closer to the answer than they were.
The truth is there is no Truth. We're all figments of each others' imaginations, and the world is what we make of it. Things are true only because we believe them to be. If we stopped believing in gravity, we could all float. If we started believing that nuclear weapons did nothing but cause a massive explosion of flower petals, then that's what would happen. But we are trapped in the illusory world society has built for itself. Deep down, we know that gravity works, just as we know mushroom clouds are all we get from atomic bombs. If we could rid ourselves of the socialized knowledge we have, and then we could do anything.
We dream of things that are impossible, but only upon waking do we question them. When we return to reality, the Truth reasserts itself. It was a silly dream, and nothing more. I can't really fly. Butterflies made of fire don't exist. I'll never see her again, because she's dead.
But the things we dream are as true as what we experience in the waking world. Everything is just a fleeting perception, and what we perceive is filtered through our beliefs, our feelings, our memories.
But humans still carry on in the search for Truth. The gods have been replaced with science, but nothing has really changed.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:25:24 AM
The truth is there is no Truth. We're all figments of each others' imaginations, and the world is what we make of it. Things are true only because we believe them to be.
Oh, okay. Then it's okay to go napalm the fuck out of Afghans and Iraqis for no reason, since nobody is real.
For the same reason, we should not imprison rapists, murderers, or pedophiles.
Since this is in Or Kill Me, I'd like to discuss the contents but don't want to mistake an essay with a rant. The latter being something which I understand more as an outburst of emotion and therefore less subject to criticism. So please let me know which one this is.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 12:33:29 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:25:24 AM
The truth is there is no Truth. We're all figments of each others' imaginations, and the world is what we make of it. Things are true only because we believe them to be.
Oh, okay. Then it's okay to go napalm the fuck out of Afghans and Iraqis for no reason, since nobody is real.
For the same reason, we should not imprison rapists, murderers, or pedophiles.
So that means I could let my inner psychopath run rampant?
That also means I walk through walls, and don't need to dodge bullets.
Quote from: Kai on September 21, 2010, 12:35:54 AM
Since this is in Or Kill Me, I'd like to discuss the contents but don't want to mistake an essay with a rant. The latter being something which I understand more as an outburst of emotion and therefore less subject to criticism. So please let me know which one this is.
Little bit of both really. The concepts here have been going through my head for years, but this particular iteration was written as an emotional outburst, sort of. In response to several things, the most important of which was the dream it mentions. I wanted to refine it to make it more essay-like, but screw it, here it is. And criticize away, I don't mind.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 12:33:29 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:25:24 AM
The truth is there is no Truth. We're all figments of each others' imaginations, and the world is what we make of it. Things are true only because we believe them to be.
Oh, okay. Then it's okay to go napalm the fuck out of Afghans and Iraqis for no reason, since nobody is real.
For the same reason, we should not imprison rapists, murderers, or pedophiles.
Yes.
Quote from: Cudgel on September 21, 2010, 12:37:10 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 12:33:29 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:25:24 AM
The truth is there is no Truth. We're all figments of each others' imaginations, and the world is what we make of it. Things are true only because we believe them to be.
Oh, okay. Then it's okay to go napalm the fuck out of Afghans and Iraqis for no reason, since nobody is real.
For the same reason, we should not imprison rapists, murderers, or pedophiles.
So that means I could let my inner psychopath run rampant?
That also means I walk through walls, and don't need to dodge bullets.
Also, yes.
This fills me with frothy rage, but I know that punching your avatar on my screen will only make me need a new laptop.
Go impale yourself on a barstool please.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 21, 2010, 12:48:01 AM
This fills me with frothy rage, but I know that punching your avatar on my screen will only make me need a new laptop.
Go impale yourself on a barstool please.
Thought you'd like it. :wink:
I just watched someone go from "Best Noob this quarter" to "Sociopathic person I don't want to talk to" in just two posts.
:sad:
You're just saying that to provoke Dok and ECH right? You don't actually believe that shit? Right?
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on September 21, 2010, 12:55:59 AM
You're just saying that to provoke Dok and ECH right? You don't actually believe that shit? Right?
Either way, there's someone new on my "don't bother clicking" list.
Ugh.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 12:54:17 AM
I just watched someone go from "Best Noob this quarter" to "Sociopathic person I don't want to talk to" in just two posts.
:sad:
:sad:
That one actually does hurt. I was really hoping the irony of it would come through, especially in my response to your response. But, judge it as you will, Dok. I am sorry if I disappointed you.
QuoteEither way, there's someone new on my "don't bother clicking" list.
But its also the difference between run of the mill asshole and sociopath. Such things need to be clarified.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:58:51 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 12:54:17 AM
I just watched someone go from "Best Noob this quarter" to "Sociopathic person I don't want to talk to" in just two posts.
:sad:
:sad:
That one actually does hurt. I was really hoping the irony of it would come through, especially in my response to your response. But, judge it as you will, Dok. I am sorry if I disappointed you.
I asked if you were serious, and you said yes.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on September 21, 2010, 12:55:59 AM
You're just saying that to provoke Dok and ECH right? You don't actually believe that shit? Right?
No.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 01:00:09 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:58:51 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 12:54:17 AM
I just watched someone go from "Best Noob this quarter" to "Sociopathic person I don't want to talk to" in just two posts.
:sad:
:sad:
That one actually does hurt. I was really hoping the irony of it would come through, especially in my response to your response. But, judge it as you will, Dok. I am sorry if I disappointed you.
I asked if you were serious, and you said yes.
I misread you, Dok, I thought you were being an ass. So I was being one back. :sad:
Oh, okay.
I'm inclined to believe, given what else I've read of your posts recently, that you DO believe what you said in the OP.
:backpedal:
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 21, 2010, 01:05:39 AM
I'm inclined to believe, given what else I've read of your posts recently, that you DO believe what you said in the OP.
:backpedal:
Believe what you want, ECH. Read into it what you will, and take it however you like. That's why it is here, after all.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:42:34 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 21, 2010, 12:35:54 AM
Since this is in Or Kill Me, I'd like to discuss the contents but don't want to mistake an essay with a rant. The latter being something which I understand more as an outburst of emotion and therefore less subject to criticism. So please let me know which one this is.
Little bit of both really. The concepts here have been going through my head for years, but this particular iteration was written as an emotional outburst, sort of. In response to several things, the most important of which was the dream it mentions. I wanted to refine it to make it more essay-like, but screw it, here it is. And criticize away, I don't mind.
Okay. My criticism on the ideas is they are epistemologically waaaay below standards. You are arguing at once, universal ignorance /and/ omnipotence. That goes beyond simple solipsism, which is usually frowned upon via barstools around here.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:25:24 AM
But humans still carry on in the search for Truth. The gods have been replaced with science, but nothing has really changed.
When gods and superstition soley ruled people's thinking those people died of things like a rotten tooth, or a small wound getting slowly more and more infected. Medical science alone has had a profound impact on the way that humans live their lives everyday.
Not to mention the multitude of benefits other scientific disciplines have given humanity.
Culture, transportation, music, education (lol)... pretty much everything humans do is affected by technology and science.
Quote from: Kai on September 21, 2010, 01:43:16 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:42:34 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 21, 2010, 12:35:54 AM
Since this is in Or Kill Me, I'd like to discuss the contents but don't want to mistake an essay with a rant. The latter being something which I understand more as an outburst of emotion and therefore less subject to criticism. So please let me know which one this is.
Little bit of both really. The concepts here have been going through my head for years, but this particular iteration was written as an emotional outburst, sort of. In response to several things, the most important of which was the dream it mentions. I wanted to refine it to make it more essay-like, but screw it, here it is. And criticize away, I don't mind.
Okay. My criticism on the ideas is they are epistemologically waaaay below standards. You are arguing at once, universal ignorance /and/ omnipotence. That goes beyond simple solipsism, which is usually frowned upon via barstools around here.
Yeah, I know. I was being intentionally antagonistic towards ECH. Didn't mean to alienate Dok with it. I was kinda looking forward to everyone else tearing it apart piece by piece, but now I don't care.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 01:47:33 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 21, 2010, 01:43:16 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:42:34 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 21, 2010, 12:35:54 AM
Since this is in Or Kill Me, I'd like to discuss the contents but don't want to mistake an essay with a rant. The latter being something which I understand more as an outburst of emotion and therefore less subject to criticism. So please let me know which one this is.
Little bit of both really. The concepts here have been going through my head for years, but this particular iteration was written as an emotional outburst, sort of. In response to several things, the most important of which was the dream it mentions. I wanted to refine it to make it more essay-like, but screw it, here it is. And criticize away, I don't mind.
Okay. My criticism on the ideas is they are epistemologically waaaay below standards. You are arguing at once, universal ignorance /and/ omnipotence. That goes beyond simple solipsism, which is usually frowned upon via barstools around here.
Yeah, I know. I was being intentionally antagonistic towards ECH. Didn't mean to alienate Dok with it. I was kinda looking forward to everyone else tearing it apart piece by piece, but now I don't care.
Well, after today, I'm kind of willing to believe the worst of everyone.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 01:51:06 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 01:47:33 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 21, 2010, 01:43:16 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:42:34 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 21, 2010, 12:35:54 AM
Since this is in Or Kill Me, I'd like to discuss the contents but don't want to mistake an essay with a rant. The latter being something which I understand more as an outburst of emotion and therefore less subject to criticism. So please let me know which one this is.
Little bit of both really. The concepts here have been going through my head for years, but this particular iteration was written as an emotional outburst, sort of. In response to several things, the most important of which was the dream it mentions. I wanted to refine it to make it more essay-like, but screw it, here it is. And criticize away, I don't mind.
Okay. My criticism on the ideas is they are epistemologically waaaay below standards. You are arguing at once, universal ignorance /and/ omnipotence. That goes beyond simple solipsism, which is usually frowned upon via barstools around here.
Yeah, I know. I was being intentionally antagonistic towards ECH. Didn't mean to alienate Dok with it. I was kinda looking forward to everyone else tearing it apart piece by piece, but now I don't care.
Well, after today, I'm kind of willing to believe the worst of everyone.
I understand, Dok. I stupidly let my real life depression get mixed in with what was going on here, and kamikaze'd myself. I'll accept what I get. I won't post any of yuorr threads, or any that you might be interested. Sorry I fucked everything up, Dok.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 01:56:15 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 01:51:06 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 01:47:33 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 21, 2010, 01:43:16 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:42:34 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 21, 2010, 12:35:54 AM
Since this is in Or Kill Me, I'd like to discuss the contents but don't want to mistake an essay with a rant. The latter being something which I understand more as an outburst of emotion and therefore less subject to criticism. So please let me know which one this is.
Little bit of both really. The concepts here have been going through my head for years, but this particular iteration was written as an emotional outburst, sort of. In response to several things, the most important of which was the dream it mentions. I wanted to refine it to make it more essay-like, but screw it, here it is. And criticize away, I don't mind.
Okay. My criticism on the ideas is they are epistemologically waaaay below standards. You are arguing at once, universal ignorance /and/ omnipotence. That goes beyond simple solipsism, which is usually frowned upon via barstools around here.
Yeah, I know. I was being intentionally antagonistic towards ECH. Didn't mean to alienate Dok with it. I was kinda looking forward to everyone else tearing it apart piece by piece, but now I don't care.
Well, after today, I'm kind of willing to believe the worst of everyone.
I understand, Dok. I stupidly let my real life depression get mixed in with what was going on here, and kamikaze'd myself. I'll accept what I get. I won't post any of yuorr threads, or any that you might be interested. Sorry I fucked everything up, Dok.
Um, stop being so sorry and post something else, to redeem yourself. You can always recover on PD, unless you are Eldora, Hugh, or Fomentor.
And they had to work HARD to attain that status.
Quote from: Triple Zero on September 21, 2010, 02:04:54 AM
And they had to work HARD to attain that status.
Oh, yeah. That wasn't just one bad thread, nosiree.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 21, 2010, 02:04:06 AM
Um, stop being so sorry and post something else, to redeem yourself. You can always recover on PD, unless you are Eldora, Hugh, or Fomentor.
Will do, then. Just didn't want to unintentionally make things worse.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 01:47:33 AM
Yeah, I know. I was being intentionally antagonistic towards ECH.
Oh ho ho!
Well, spanky, two can play at that game.
Bummer for you is, one of those two is WAY better at it. PROTIP: It's not you.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 21, 2010, 03:02:24 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 01:47:33 AM
Yeah, I know. I was being intentionally antagonistic towards ECH.
Oh ho ho!
Well, spanky, two can play at that game.
Bummer for you is, one of those two is WAY better at it. PROTIP: It's not you.
Well, this is going to get ugly.
Au contraire. I can raise being needlessly antagonistic to an art form, good sir.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 21, 2010, 03:08:14 AM
Au contraire. I can raise being needlessly antagonistic to an art form, good sir.
We have this art show that's gotten to Tucson and gotten stuck. It's a Chinese thing, worth googling, called "Bodies".
That's an art form, too. And it probably got less blood on the walls.
Here: http://www.bodiestheexhibition.com/tucson/plan-your-visit.html
OP:
brings to mind this stanza from Kerouac's Mexico City Blues:
Got up and dressed up
and went out & got laid
Then died and got buried
in a coffin in the grave,
Man --
Yet everything is perfect,
Because it is empty,
Because it is perfect
with emptiness,
Because it's not even happening.
Everything
Is Ignorant of its own emptiness--
Anger
Doesn't like to be reminded of fits--
You start with the Teaching
Inscrutable of the Diamond
And end with it, your goal
is your startingplace,
No race was run, no walk
of prophetic toenails
Across Arabies of hot
meaning you just--
numbly don't get there
here's a version being read by johnny depp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpk1W8rymL4
footnote: kerouac mentions the diamond - he's referring to the diamond sutra, which might be up your alley as well. It's a quick read.
Quote from: Cramulus on September 21, 2010, 04:16:15 AM
OP:
brings to mind this stanza from Kerouac's Mexico City Blues:
Got up and dressed up
and went out & got laid
Then died and got buried
in a coffin in the grave,
Man --
Yet everything is perfect,
Because it is empty,
Because it is perfect
with emptiness,
Because it's not even happening.
Everything
Is Ignorant of its own emptiness--
Anger
Doesn't like to be reminded of fits--
You start with the Teaching
Inscrutable of the Diamond
And end with it, your goal
is your startingplace,
No race was run, no walk
of prophetic toenails
Across Arabies of hot
meaning you just--
numbly don't get there
here's a version being read by johnny depp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpk1W8rymL4
footnote: kerouac mentions the diamond - he's referring to the diamond sutra, which might be up your alley as well. It's a quick read.
Interesting stuff there, Cram. I'll give the Diamond Sutra a look when I get some time.
Translation: Thanks Cram, but I'd really rather not think too deeply about any of this. I'll never get around to reading that. Trying to educate me or inform me in any way that doesn't jibe with my preconceived bliss-ninny worldview is a waste of your time.
Quote from: Kai on September 21, 2010, 01:43:16 AM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 21, 2010, 12:42:34 AM
Quote from: Kai on September 21, 2010, 12:35:54 AM
Since this is in Or Kill Me, I'd like to discuss the contents but don't want to mistake an essay with a rant. The latter being something which I understand more as an outburst of emotion and therefore less subject to criticism. So please let me know which one this is.
Little bit of both really. The concepts here have been going through my head for years, but this particular iteration was written as an emotional outburst, sort of. In response to several things, the most important of which was the dream it mentions. I wanted to refine it to make it more essay-like, but screw it, here it is. And criticize away, I don't mind.
Okay. My criticism on the ideas is they are epistemologically waaaay below standards. You are arguing at once, universal ignorance /and/ omnipotence. That goes beyond simple solipsism, which is usually frowned upon via barstools around here.
Bumpost, because for me Kai strikes at the heart of the problem: PoD* isn't a sociopath, it's just that the terms are loose and contradictory.
It's like a jigsaw puzzle where all the pieces are identical... They might fit together, but that doesn't guarantee a coherent picture.
*I did that on purpose.