Principia Discordia

Seven people confirmed dead.  Looks like a car bomb went off, though that cannot be verified.  There have been shootings as well.  One man has been arrested.

No credible claims of responsibility so far, although a New York based news agency reported some jihadist groups claimed responsibility.  Rumour being floated around Norwegian media so far is that a "disturbed loner" was responsible.

Edit: the gunman was dressed as a policeman.  Police say 10 died in the shootings (which targeted a youth camp on Utoya), 7 in the bombing, 2 injured in the latter.  Explosion took place near government buildings and major newspaper headquarters.

Edit 2: the camp on Utoya was for the ruling Labour Party's youth cadre.  The suspect has been described as a Nordic-looking male.

Edit 3: the government buildings attacked were the oil ministry and the office of the Prime Minister.  The bombing took place first, and the suspect apparently said he had been sent to Utoya, when questioned before the shooting, to provide additional security.  This heavily suggests Utoya was the main target, especially since the suspect was described as being "heavily armed", ie; with several weapons, and the Oslo bombing was a feint to provide an opportunity to gain access to the camp.

Wow, Norway.

So there's two sites, the government buildings in Oslo, and the camp of the Norway labour party's youth division on Utoya.

Wtf is going on??

Justice Ministry has confirmed the arrested man is Norwegian.  This is clearly an attack against the ruling Labour Party.

Crazy. I don't know the Norwegian labour party, but being the labour party, they can't be that bad ...

They're the major party in the ruling Red-Green alliance.  They're your usual first world Labour Party - social democracy, turned a little to the right and against immigration.

Britain has offered intelligence assistance - although it's not clear whether Britain actually has anything useful.

I've noticed, looking at Norwegian polling data, that the far right has almost no organizational presence in Norway.  The far-right are usually a good suspect when it comes to terrorism against left-wing targets, and with a lack of any sort of political presence in the country, it could be that frustrations among someone of that persuasion spilled over into political violence /speculation.

I caught something on G+ about 2 things that happened 'right before this'.

1) Norway making noises about pulling out of Libya.

2) Norway advocating _for_ Palestinian independence.


Any comment on that observation?

The more im thinking about this the more im thinking it might be a random nut or a right wing extremist. If norway is a low priority target the right may have just been laying low while the govt was distracted with al qaeda and giving off the impression that theywere in capable of an attack. Or again lone gunman which are hard to predict. I may be way off but thats just the feeling that im getting.

Quote from: Telarus on July 22, 2011, 10:50:33 PM
I caught something on G+ about 2 things that happened 'right before this'.

1) Norway making noises about pulling out of Libya.

2) Norway advocating _for_ Palestinian independence.


Any comment on that observation?

Well, Norway have been trying to negotiate between Israel and Palestinian groups for a good long time now.  The Oslo Accords, for example.  Most people and to be honest most political parties in the west now accept that there needs to be some kind of Palestinian state, so I cannot see any kind of link there.  I believe Norway have been making noises for quite a while about their military not being able to cope with a prolonged Libya campaign - at least a month, if not longer, so nothing new on that front either.

Death count is now at least 80, from the Utoya shootings alone.

The Norwegian man is 32 years old.  BBC has floated the Neo-Nazi theory, but as they pointed out, such groups were largely neutralized in the country, both politically and in their more paramilitary forms.

Turns out he told the camp officials he was there to give a talk on the Oslo bombing to the kids, and once they gathered together, started shooting.  This accounts for the high death rate.  He was armed with a pistol, an automatic weapon of some kind and a shotgun.  Again, this makes me think the youth camp was the real target, that the Oslo bomb was a feint.

I know it's only the addition of a single step, but we're seeing this more and more often, as a strategy.  Think Mumbai, for example.  Or in Iraq, where car bombs would be planted or suicide bombers would work together in such a way that one bombing would set up the conditions for a second, much bloodier attack, which was the real objective.

By conditions, i assume you mean law enforcement being utilized at the bombing sight making for a slower response to the shooting.

is it being considered in the law enforcement community that a standard course of action these days might should be to hold back, after a bombing, some percentage of your men specifically as a quick response team to a follow-on?

No, not necessarily, to your first sentence.

In Mumbai, the attacks were used to generate an international outrage.  Terrorists then spoofed a call from the Indian Foreign Minister which was one threat off of declaring outright war, in hope of provoking Pakistan to move troops to the Indian border (and away from Warizistan).  The attack created a psychological expectation in the minds of international observers, which the terrorists then exploited and nearly succeeded at, in order to achieve their primary objective (which, after all, was not slaughtering Indians for no reason, but to get the Pakistani Army to give up their offensive against jihadist groups).

In this case, the bombing gave a reason for a "police officer" to show up suddenly and unannounced at a political party youth camp, shortly after an attack against the government.  If there had been no bombing, would he have been allowed in?  What excuse could he use to gather the teenagers together in one place?  After an attack on the government offices though, it would make sense for additional protection to be sent to political gatherings of the ruling party.  Especially when they are so close to Oslo (the drive is roughly 40 minutes).  Again, the bombing created the expectation, of protection being provided, which this terrorist appeared to do, in order to fulfill his primary objective - killing members of the Labour Party Youth Wing.

Now, why he would do that is a very good question indeed...I'm very eager to get more information about this man's political involvement, criminal record and his stated reasons for the attack, if any.  And, of course, to find out if he was working alone or not.  He could be, quite easily.  But I wouldn't want to take that on faith, and I doubt anyone else will, either.

Suspect named

QuoteAnders Behring Breivik, the 32-year-old suspect in Friday's attacks in Norway, held right-wing views, say police.

Police chief Sveinung Sponheim said his internet postings "suggest that he has some political traits directed toward the right, and anti-Muslim views".

"But whether that was a motivation for the actual act remains to be seen," he told Norwegian broadcaster NRK.

Little is currently known about him apart from what has appeared on social networking sites such as Facebook and Twitter - and these entries appear to have been set up just days ago.

On the Facebook page attributed to him, he describes himself as a Christian and a conservative. The Facebook page is no longer available but it also listed interests such as body-building and freemasonry.

The gunman was described by witnesses who saw him on Utoeya island as tall and blond - and dressed in a police uniform. The image of him posted on Facebook depict a blond, blue-eyed man.

The Norwegian newspaper Verdens Gang quoted a friend as saying that the suspect turned to right-wing extremism when in his late 20s. The paper also said that he participated in online forums expressing strong nationalistic views.
Bomb ingredient

Mr Breivik is thought to have studied at the Oslo Commerce School and his work is listed as Breivik Geofarm, a company Norwegian media is describing as a farming sole proprietorship.

The company was set up to cultivate vegetables, melons, roots and tubers, Norway's TV2 says, and speculation in local media is rife that through such a link he may have had access to fertiliser, an ingredient used in bomb-making.

A Twitter account attributed to the suspect has also emerged but it only has one post, which is a quote from philosopher John Stuart Mill: "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests."

As with his Facebook page, the tweet was posted on 17 July.

It reveals very little about the man except an interest in libertarianism and a clear belief in the power of the individual.

His only tweet was a J S Mill quote

Quote"One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests."

So this is a big win for the law of unintended consequences. Or maybe this is the inevitable consequence of privileging the individual over the collective, who knows?

It certainly shows the effects of inflation since Mill's time; back in the day the motivated individual was only worth 99 armchair revolutionaries.

I find a Facebook account that is set up only days before the event highly suspect to contain anything but specific information he (or his organisation) would want us to know in light of the event.
(same goes for the Twitter feed, though that's more obvious)

Interesting how that one-two step plan worked btw. So if he'd acted alone, he'd have to set off the bomb, then drive to Utoya to do the policeman spiel. What are the timings of the events again?

Quote from: Cain on July 22, 2011, 10:07:45 PM
They're your usual first world Labour Party - social democracy, turned a little to the right and against immigration.

Note that most political youth organizations here have at least some degree of independence from their mother organizations, and AUF are significantly to the left of the Labour Party.

At least 80 killed at the Utøya camp, apparently. Fuck.

Anders Behring Breivik used to be a member of the right-wing populist Progress Party and its youth organization (where he chaired a local branch for several months in 2002), but he left a couple of years ago, probably because he thought their policies on immigration were too naïve. He has been an active commenter on far right and anti-Islam blogs.

Quote from: Triple Zero on July 23, 2011, 10:48:20 AM
I find a Facebook account that is set up only days before the event highly suspect to contain anything but specific information he (or his organisation) would want us to know in light of the event.
(same goes for the Twitter feed, though that's more obvious)

Interesting how that one-two step plan worked btw. So if he'd acted alone, he'd have to set off the bomb, then drive to Utoya to do the policeman spiel. What are the timings of the events again?

Agreed.

The bombing took place roughly 2 hours before the shootings.  The drive is 40 minutes or so.  The car bomb, if that is what it was, may have been on a timer, though we know he was seen in Oslo earlier that day (exact time unknown).  It is very possible he went from one to the other within the time frame.

Quote from: Lenin McCarthy on July 23, 2011, 01:01:58 PM

Quote from: Cain on July 22, 2011, 10:07:45 PM
They're your usual first world Labour Party - social democracy, turned a little to the right and against immigration.

Note that most political youth organizations here have at least some degree of independence from their mother organizations, and AUF are significantly to the left of the Labour Party.

At least 80 killed at the Utøya camp, apparently. Fuck.

Anders Behring Breivik used to be a member of the right-wing populist Progress Party and its youth organization (where he chaired a local branch for several months in 2002), but he left a couple of years ago, probably because he thought their policies on immigration were too naïve. He has been an active commenter on far right and anti-Islam blogs.

Yeah, that's pretty true over here as well, in both our major centrist party and Labour.  More the centrists than Labour, funnily enough.

Interesting.  They did say he was a Christian and right wing in his views, so that would fit.  I think I may even know a few of those blogs (I have a half Norwegian friend who wrote a very good book on contemporary far-right parties and he believes, rightly so IMO, that Muslims are nothing more than a stand-in for Jews in those discourses.  He also likes to argue with the writers for said blogs in his spare time). Has there been a big debate involving Muslim immigration or Muslims in general in Norway - something with a political dimension where blame could be laid on the Labour Party?  Mosques being built, a radical Muslim preacher winning the right to claim asylum, anything like that?

I mean, I could be barking up the wrong tree entirely with this analysis, I'm just thinking out loud.  This would probably have to have been a few months back, as well.  He clearly planned this quite well, he'd have to get the uniform, the weapons, make the bomb, do test runs for the attack and so on.

Urgh, the Dutch TV news reports on the Facebook page and the Twitter feed as though they are his actual online identity, not something set up less than a week before the attack. Even though the screenshot of his Twitter feed clearly shows it only has one single tweet!

The part where he's been active online in the month before and what he's said then and there is much more interesting IMO. Fortunately they do at least also talk about that.



BTW, given that Norway is rather thinly populated, shooting 80 young people that are highly politically active--that's actually quite effectively killing off the future of that particular stream of political intelligentsia. There's a reasonable chance that one of those kids might have become a future labour party prime minister or something.

Not to mention who is going to want to go to future youth camps?

From the BBC

QuoteIn a post in Norwegian in an online forum on December 2009, a user named Anders Behring Breivik claims there is not one country where Muslims have peacefully lived with non-Muslims, stating that instead it has had "catastrophic consequences" for non-Muslims.

Mr Breivik was a member of a Swedish neo-Nazi internet forum called Nordisk, according to Expo, a Swedish group monitoring far-right activity.

[...]

The Norwegian newspaper Verdens Gang quoted a friend as saying that the suspect turned to right-wing extremism in his late 20s.

He had no military background except for ordinary national service and no criminal record, it seems.

Police say he is co-operating with them, answering questions.

[...]

He later appears to have moved out of the city and established Breivik Geofarm, a company Norwegian media is describing as a farming sole proprietorship set up to cultivate vegetables, melons, roots and tubers.

A supply company has come forward to say that it delivered six tonnes of fertiliser to this company in May - an ingredient used in bomb-making.

Wow, wish some-body would have shown this dude this monument:

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2011/07/mysterious-minaret-of-jam.html

(http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-FdRw3MhKz3c/Tg57yriP6RI/AAAAAAABfoI/6VpLhCTqyGQ/s800/minaret%252520of%252520jam%252520afghanistan.jpg)

QuoteDan Cruickshank, who visited the place, writes about the carvings: "This chapter, called Maryam, tells of the Virgin Mary and Jesus, both venerated in Islam, and of prophets such as Abraham and Isaac. It's a text that emphasises what Judaism, Christianity and Islam have in common, rather than their differences. It seems the Ghorids placed the text here to appeal for harmony and tolerance in the land, a message that is more relevant now than ever."

The stupedous structure of the minaret of Jam is actually only a part of The City of the Turquoise Mountain, which is the lost Afghan capital of the Middle Ages - Firuzkuh (Firuz Koh). The city was once a prospering, multicultural center - before it was destroyed by a son of Genghis Khan in the early 1220s. The site even includes a Jewish cemetery, complete with carvings in Hebrew! This seems to prove a sizeable Judeo-Persian trading community, that was thriving there and had connections to other such Jewish centers in Medieval Afghanistan.

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/781153.html (http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/781153.html)

91

ugh.  So sad.  And just a lovely little lesson on how extremism breeds this kind of thing--anywhere and everywhere.

But of course the extremists themselves only see their actions as holy, just and righteous. 

Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2011, 05:24:54 PM
Has there been a big debate involving Muslim immigration or Muslims in general in Norway - something with a political dimension where blame could be laid on the Labour Party?  Mosques being built, a radical Muslim preacher winning the right to claim asylum, anything like that?

I mean, I could be barking up the wrong tree entirely with this analysis, I'm just thinking out loud.  This would probably have to have been a few months back, as well.  He clearly planned this quite well, he'd have to get the uniform, the weapons, make the bomb, do test runs for the attack and so on.

I think your analysis is quite right.

The first things that come to my mind are Mullah Krekar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullah_Krekar) (lots of right-wingers are angry because the Norwegian government refuses to extradite him to Kurdistan, where he risks capital punishment), and a huge (Ahmadiyya and relatively moderate) mosque being built in the outskirts of Oslo.

There have been big national debates on Muslims and Muslim immigration in Norway over the last few years, and most of the parties in Parliament have moved in a less immigrant-friendly direction (including the Labour Party). The right has been obsessively pushing statistics showing that non-western immigrants were behind every assault rape in Oslo in 2009 (ignoring that Oslo has a Conservative/Progress Party council). Also, three Muslims were arrested last year over an alleged bomb plot (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10557568). Prejudice against Muslims has most definitely "passed the dinner table test", like Baroness Warsi claimed in the UK a while ago.

The Labour Party is the largest party in a majority government and has been the largest party for most of the time since 1945, so you could blame practically anything you don't like about Norwegian society on them.

Interesting, thanks.  I see someone tried to knock Krekar off a year and a half ago...probably Kurds, but still interesting.  Especially as it followed the facebook assassination thing.

I couldn't see any obvious trigger events myself, but then, I'm not in full possession of the facts.  It could be a personal crisis compounded his political frustrations or something more local happened, which he then tied into a larger political-social narrative.  Or something else entirely.

Ugh.  I keep seeing idiots posting the "He was a zionist" shit on..  well..  a stupid image board sites with no credibility that I refuse to admit that I sometimes go for amusement.

Incidentally, what the hell is a Labor Youth League?  Is that like bible camp for communists?

As much as I do read on current events and continue to devour books on American, European and world history I have to say I really did not know things like this camp still existed.  Would one of you be kind enough to explain them to me?  Google isn't proving very specific but I'm still looking.  

    --Pickle: Needs to read moar, apparently.

Quote from: Disco Pickle on July 23, 2011, 11:12:06 PM

Incidentally, what the hell is a Labor Youth League?  Is that like bible camp for communists?

ITT, DP attempts to justify the deaths of 80 children, because the killer was a libertarian.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 23, 2011, 11:12:59 PM

Quote from: Disco Pickle on July 23, 2011, 11:12:06 PM

Incidentally, what the hell is a Labor Youth League?  Is that like bible camp for communists?

ITT, DP attempts to justify the deaths of 80 children, because the killer was a libertarian.

wat? 

OK Dok.  Make this question about how much you despise libertarians.  You're good at that.

Feel free to ignore the fact that I asked an honest question about a subject I'm unfamiliar with and try and paint me as some sort of child murdering sympathizer because I don't share your political views.

Fuck you Howl.  Fuck you for even implying that. 

Fuck You, sir.

Quote from: Disco Pickle on July 23, 2011, 11:20:48 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 23, 2011, 11:12:59 PM

Quote from: Disco Pickle on July 23, 2011, 11:12:06 PM

Incidentally, what the hell is a Labor Youth League?  Is that like bible camp for communists?

ITT, DP attempts to justify the deaths of 80 children, because the killer was a libertarian.

wat? 

OK Dok.  Make this question about how much you despise libertarians.  You're good at that.

Feel free to ignore the fact that I asked an honest question about a subject I'm unfamiliar with and try and paint me as some sort of child murdering sympathizer because I don't share your political views.

Fuck you Howl.  Fuck you for even implying that. 

Fuck You, sir.

:pokewithstick:

:digtbk:

:hammer:

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 23, 2011, 11:23:28 PM

Quote from: Disco Pickle on July 23, 2011, 11:20:48 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 23, 2011, 11:12:59 PM

Quote from: Disco Pickle on July 23, 2011, 11:12:06 PM

Incidentally, what the hell is a Labor Youth League?  Is that like bible camp for communists?

ITT, DP attempts to justify the deaths of 80 children, because the killer was a libertarian.

wat? 

OK Dok.  Make this question about how much you despise libertarians.  You're good at that.

Feel free to ignore the fact that I asked an honest question about a subject I'm unfamiliar with and try and paint me as some sort of child murdering sympathizer because I don't share your political views.

Fuck you Howl.  Fuck you for even implying that. 

Fuck You, sir.

:pokewithstick:

:digtbk:

:hammer:

:pwned: maybe.

I have to say I just can't ever tell with you.

You and your fucking baiting. 

:cainftw:

you're still a fucker.

Quote from: Disco Pickle on July 23, 2011, 11:34:06 PM

you're still a fucker.

I can't remember ever stating otherwise.  Please to see my custom title.

Most political parties have youth wings in Europe, Pickles.

I cannot say for sure what they do on these trips, as I'm not exactly a "party line" kinda person, but I would guess they spend a few weeks away from their parents and with friends, attending the occasional lecture and seminar on political issues and how it relates to them, ignore it totally and spend their time trying to catch the eye of members of the opposite sex, going swimming, playing silly games in the woods and all that kind of stuff.

Except the BNP Youth Wing, who engage in paramilitary combat training and have lectures on how the SS were totally awesome role models.  And Trotskyite Youth Wings, who presumably spend all their efforts in futile entryist tactics against more moderate left wing parties, and not getting laid.

Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2011, 11:44:03 PM
Most political parties have youth wings in Europe, Pickles.

I cannot say for sure what they do on these trips, as I'm not exactly a "party line" kinda person, but I would guess they spend a few weeks away from their parents and with friends, attending the occasional lecture and seminar on political issues and how it relates to them, ignore it totally and spend their time trying to catch the eye of members of the opposite sex, going swimming, playing silly games in the woods and all that kind of stuff.

Except the BNP Youth Wing, who engage in paramilitary combat training and have lectures on how the SS were totally awesome role models.  And Trotskyite Youth Wings, who presumably spend all their efforts in futile entryist tactics against more moderate left wing parties, and not getting laid.

Ah, so it's sort of the equivalent of cooed 'Mericun boyscouts/girlscouts but with a bit of politic and social discussion?  I'm not sure there's anything else here that's along those lines but then I don't have a child living here and there wasn't anything like that when I was growing up that I'm aware of.  

The paramilitary camps happen but I think they try to stay way way under the radar.

This really is new to me and reminds me just how little I know of the planet outside of my current borders.

ETA: I figured shit like this would have died after the Hitler Youth camps.  

Shows what I know.

I would assume so, yes.  I was in the actual Scouts myself, so we didn't do political talk, we just skipped right ahead to the swimming, wide games in the woods and trying to catch the eye of members of the opposite sex (all five of them in our Scout group).  Although we had to turn up and do parades and things for the Queen, so I guess that is quasi-political.

I can see why the association would be with Communists and Nazis if you were unaware it still goes on, but quite a lot of very respectable parties have youth wings.  Like Lenin said upthread, the Labour Party have been in power for most of the past 60 years in Norway.  They are, essentially, the Establishment.  In the UK, a lot of talent-spotting goes on at University political clubs, especially at Oxford, Cambridge, LSE and Warwick.  And so on and so forth.  I personally have some problem with people associating with a political party at that age (having an interest in politics is one thing, forming a whole political identity is another.  This is related to my objection to kids having a religious affiliation before they can fully reason through the consequences of what they are doing) but it's not really doing any harm.

Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2011, 10:36:35 PM
I couldn't see any obvious trigger events myself, but then, I'm not in full possession of the facts.  It could be a personal crisis compounded his political frustrations or something more local happened, which he then tied into a larger political-social narrative.  Or something else entirely.

Neither can I, so a personal crisis seems very likely.

Quote from: Disco Pickle on July 23, 2011, 11:12:06 PM
Incidentally, what the hell is a Labor Youth League?  Is that like bible camp for communists?

The Labour Youth League is the youth organization of the Norwegian Labour Party. They held a summer camp this week where hundreds of young people aged between 13 to 25 were discussing politics, making friends, doing sports, listening to talks about various topics and watching their favorite bands play. Or brainwashed into accepting the social democratic paradigm, if that sounds better to you.

All the political parties here in Norway (except for the Pensioners' Party) have a youth wing. Not every of them has a summer camp; the Young Conservatives have an annual large conference at a finer hotel somewhere in the country. One of my former classmates bought champagne for about 10000 Norwegian Kroner (about 1000£) at one of those. When he was 16.  :p

I, fairly justifiably, associated "political camps" with bell curve blowing political views.  In my experience, parents do most of the work indoctrinating children into a political view.  Varying degrees of passion for that view and association with other views can either turn on or turn off their child to that view.  It's not like it's a SCIENCE.   :lulz:

My parents were pretty much non-political so I formed my own over the years.  Camps that teach political views along with recreational activities are completely foreign to me and I'm beating myself up a bit for not paying more attention to what people do with their children in this regard.  It's just unheard of here to me.  Maybe another 'Mericun could chime in and point me toward something I've missed. 

Quote from: Lenin McCarthy on July 24, 2011, 12:12:25 AM


The Labour Youth League is the youth organization of the Norwegian Labour Party. They held a summer camp this week where hundreds of young people aged between 13 to 25 were discussing politics, making friends, doing sports, listening to talks about various topics and watching their favorite bands play. Or brainwashed into accepting the social democratic paradigm, if that sounds better to you.

You don't have to be a dick about it. 

It's pretty clear that both sides have their zealots and are willing to indoctrinate children at a young age, as your SN pretty accurately (and ironically) paints.

I wrote it as a bit of a joke intending to call out both ends. 

Zee jokes they are not always funny, no?

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/6560898/2083_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence

This was supposedly posted by the subject (where, I don't know) minutes before the Oslo attack by Anders Behring Breivik, though the book says the author is "Andrew Berwick" (anglicization of his name?) and that it was written in London.

Could be a moron piggybacking on the tragedy as well, I suppose.  Going to investigate further.

If this was him....is it too much to hope for a terrorist who is aware of brevity?

This thing is 1518 pages long.

http://www.oysteinrunde.no/#post18

Comments from a Norwegian spag on the ground:

The tragedy on Utøya - an attempt to understand

Anders Behring Breivik is the man who personally, slowly, cold-bloodedly executed eighty teenagers at Utøya, Norway. I have spent the whole night thinking and reading his writings and trying to understand what drove him. I am in two minds about sharing his writings, because ideas are powerful, no matter where they come from and how tainted they - in the outset of things - seem. I think he was smart enough to know this.

I think he wanted to save the world from muslims.

I think his mind was set on saving the world. Saving the "pure", clean ... norwegianness. For some reason, he was thinking these thoughts first, and then he committed the most disgusting, tear-inducing, awful crime I am capable of imagining. Serial killers act out of a sexual-like sick drive. Dictators kill out of paranoia. Anyone can kill if group pressure becomes a factor, like Zimbardo proved. But this? What is this? What IS this?

He is born in 1979, like me, and he is tall and rather norwegian-looking, like me. His facebook page lists George Orwells "1984" and Kafkas "The Trial" as favorite books. Two of my favorite books. I have family members called Breivik.

Anders B has posted a great deal of texts on the internet, in particular on a norwegian right wing islam-critical christian blog. For me, christianity has a lot of humanistic, wonderful tones. "What would Jesus do" is a beautiful, simple credo that every christian in the world should have tattoed on their bodies. What is Anders Behring Breiviks christianity?

There they are, his words. His mind. He brags that he is rich, that he has had successful businesses that allowed him to live without working, to plan for his great book on how muslims will take over the western world. His values: Protestant christianity. Culture-conservativeness. He is a freemason, whatever one can make out of that. He was, some years ago, a member of the right-wing political party Frp - he claims they got a huge amount of success when he worked for them, because of his great understanding of how to market ideas.

Even more reason for me not to write in this blog. He is marketing. Right now. As I write this, with shaking fingers. Even more. And yet - everyone will write about it. Hopefully this can make him understandable. Do not hate him. Do not fear him. Know him, and think: Are these your thoughts? Do you understand? Would you applaud these thoughts before you knew they drove a man to kill children?

To me, these actions stand as the purest evil thinkable. Executing eighty youths, gathered like fish in a barrel, on an island. They were unarmed, they were young, they were an ocean of human potential. A political gathering. What could have been our future prime minister may have died today. She may be dying now.

I do not know what to think anymore. But: He wanted to save the world from the muslim threat. He was afraid. Fear, fear, sickening fear permeates his writing. It is clever. He is well-read. It has all the good, rational ways of explaining a point of view. He is afraid. Nothing in his writing says it clearly. His fellow right-winger bloggers are as shocked as I am. But I never shared any of his horrible fears. I never shared any of his views. I always felt an unexplainable disgust at the flawless reasoning of my Frp friends. And now, his line of thinking led him to this. He chose to sacrifice a few human lives in Norway to save the world from something he sees as a huge, religiously fanatic threat. And when he started doing it, he was so convinced that the screaming, the pain of human beings, could not make him budge in his decision.

Do you understand his thoughts? Would you feel comfortable inside this man's mindscape? Why? What is it that it gives you? I do not want to judge. I have always loved my Frp friends. I will not delete them from facebook, even when they used the first bomb to say "Get out of my fucking country, you fucking fucks" or "time to check out the "against islamization of Norway" website". I believe that we all need friends with different worldviews.

And I have always been a bit embarrassed by the fact that I am by nature ridiculously politically correct. I do believe in non-violence. I do believe that NOT sending the famous Mullah Krekar out of Norway, because he could be executed in his homeland, is a strong signal to send to the world. Both to the east and the west. "Okay, you guys may still want to execute prisoners, but then we'll let him walk freely around in Oslo, because WE happen to believe in something called the sanctity of ALL human life, even the life of this guy who is an obvious terrorist fundamentalist." I am endlessly proud of my tiny country, who has the guts to appear "soft" and "kind" even when the rest of the world pressures us to be "hard".

And I am proud of the fact that we arrested this murderer alive. How would that have played out in USA? Even in this situation, norwegian police was able to catch him alive. It is horrible to have to talk about this. If a sniper bullet could have saved a single life more, of course that would have been immensely much better. But somehow, he was stopped without being killed, and if that happened without risking any more childen's lives, yes, that is a good thing.

My bodily reaction was a sudden wish to have him torn apart by horses. But that is my feelings. Fear. Rage. Disgust. This rage for vengeance is not what makes us human. It is the victory of abstract thought, of faith, that makes us human. The faith that any human can be something different tomorrow than they are today. To him, maybe killing children gave him a physical reaction. For his own sake, I hope he is a complete psychopath, if such a thing exists. If he really did this just to bring attention to his thoughts, and he will now have to face it like a human being ...

If he really cannot feel this, he is colder than anything I have ever known in any work of fiction. Our imaginations have been outreached. But if he WAS able to feel this, and yet persisted, systematicaly killing eighty young people for the sake of drawing attention to his cause, feeling their pain in his mirror neurons, but persisting to tell the world that muslims, muslims are scary ... if this is possible. If faith in one's own justification and perfection can be so over-riding, so much stronger than the sight of another human in pain, even "cold" cannot describe what he is.

This man will be locked up. After 21 years, he will be examined by psychiatrists. They will decide wether he is well enough to get out. But: I can assure all you justice-hungry people out there, it will be decided that Anders Behring is highly intelligent, calculating, and at best, a psychopath. And that he cannot be let out. This is how our "gentleness" works. We give our prisoners hope forever, while locking them away forever. Because we say that maybe ... maybe. If you become a better person. If you don't fight the guards. If you behave nicely. And we mean it.

And it saves us money and makes us look good, and the prisoners are locked away forever, but without going mad and becoming a liability.

In Frank Millers "The Dark Knight", the Joker gets out by pretending he is all fine, and starts a killing spree. So is this "norwegian" way wrong? No. It is this naive trust in people, this faith, that makes Norway a country that even islamic fundamentalists have kept their hands away from so far. I believe that it is impossible to say that a country is "the great satan" if it executes no-one, if it tortures no-one, if its politicians silently, and secularly, say "what would Jesus do?" before they make their decisions. We are all a bunch of atheists up here. But we have faith in democracy. And in humanity. On a day like this, nothing is more impressive, more steadfast, more Jesus-like, than maintaining one's faith in Humanity. And yes, this is what a huge amount of my 913 facebookfriends did. Okay, they're mostly cultural elite people, they direct theater and make movies and write books, and maybe not so many from the right wing, but it really, really felt good to see their maturity. I like my friends. I even like myself today, as my politcal views were clearer to me than in a long time, and as every absurd prejudice I had about freemason-conservative-right-wing-monsters from the rich, blonde upper class became grotesquely true, as if life had turned into a Stieg Larsson novel.

Basically: Coupled with healthy realism and a solid police force the faith in humanity is a valuable thing in itself. It says: Our justice system believes blindly in justice. We will not kill, because killing is wrong.

I know I sound awfully politically correct, as i am relentlessly soft, multi-cultural and left-wing.

But after today, as the worst human being in Europe is hard, mono-cultural and right-wing, it will be very, very, very hard to tease anyone for being too "politically correct".

Pickle ive never heard of political youth camps here either. Ok off to rock just thought i would chime in as an american.

Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 24, 2011, 01:11:25 AM
Pickle ive never heard of political youth camps here either. Ok off to rock just thought i would chime in as an american.

Compare to AWANA clubs.

http://publicintelligence.net/utoya-gunman-anders-behring-breivik-video-manifesto/

My flash plugin crashed, but this seems to suggest the 2083 Manifesto is indeed Anders Breivik's work.

If he did write it while in London, it may suggest why David Cameron thought UK intelligence may be of assistance in this case.  Surprisingly, the far-right are quite an international lot, and links do exist between networks in the UK, America, Belgium, Italy, Scandanavia and Russia.

I've only skimmed the manifesto so far, but it is much of what you would expect - boilerplate rhetoric about cultural Marxism and Islam destroying Europe.

Reading the file, a lot of it seems to be cut and paste jobs from blogs written by lunatics (lunatics I have trolled, and so recognize only too well.  Fjordman, Sarah Maid of Albion, Bruce Bawer, Isupporttheresistance, Gates of Vienna etc).

Of interest is how the compiler, "Andrew Berwick" signs off:

QuoteSincere and patriotic regards,

Andrew Berwick, London, England - 2011

Justiciar Knight Commander for Knights Templar Europe and one of several leaders of the National and pan-European Patriotic Resistance Movement

Obviously he didn't get the memo that the Templars protected Muslim citizens in Jerusalem, had quite a cozy relationship with Muslim rulers (including the Assassins, who paid tribute to them) and that, if you believe the speculative history, that the Templars inspired the Peasant's Revolt in England and inspired Freemasonry and so liberalism and socialism. 

IOW, a Knight Templar would be more liable to beat him into the ground than not, as some Templars did to foreign knights harassing a Muslim merchant once.


Anyway, less history and more current news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14265094

QuoteThe man accused of a massacre at a youth camp in Norway and a bombing in the capital, Oslo, has admitted responsibility, his lawyer says.

Anders Behring Breivik, 32, described his actions as "gruesome but necessary", and said he would explain himself at a court hearing on Monday.

At least 85 people died when a gunman ran amok on Utoeya island on Friday, hours after an Oslo bomb killed seven.

As Norway mourned the victims, police continued to search for the missing.

Four people from the island camp shooting are yet to be found; it is thought some may have drowned after swimming out into the lake to escape the hail of bullets.

In Oslo police said the death toll could rise further as bodies or body parts were in buildings damaged by the bomb but still too unstable to search.

Police have also said another person may have been involved in Friday's attacks, which happened within hours of each other.

'Demanding suspect'

"He thought it was gruesome having to commit these acts, but in his head they were necessary," Mr Breivik's lawyer Geir Lippestad told Norwegian media.

He added that the actions had been planned for some time.

Mr Breivik has been charged with committing acts of terrorism, and is due to appear in court on Monday when judges will decide whether he should be detained as the investigation continues.

The suspect is reported to have had links with right-wing extremists.

Still pictures of him, wearing a wetsuit and carrying an automatic weapon, appeared in a 12-minute anti-Muslim video called Knights Templar 2083, which appeared briefly on YouTube.

A 1,500-page document written in English and said to be by Mr Breivik - posted under the pseudonym of Andrew Berwick -was also put online hours before the attacks, suggesting they had been years in the planning.

The document and the video repeatedly refer to the Knights Templar and to multiculturalism and Muslim immigration.

Police have not speculated on motives for the attack but the bomb in Oslo targeted buildings connected to Norway's governing Labour Party, and the youth camp on Utoeya island was also run by the party.

"He has had a dialogue with the police the whole time, but he is a very demanding suspect," police chief Sveinung Sponheim told the Associated Press news agency.

Norway has had problems with neo-Nazi groups in the past but the assumption was that such groups had been largely eliminated and did not pose a significant threat, says the BBC's Richard Galpin, near the island which remains cordoned off by police.

Quote from: Disco Pickle on July 23, 2011, 11:53:59 PM

Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2011, 11:44:03 PM
Most political parties have youth wings in Europe, Pickles.

I cannot say for sure what they do on these trips, as I'm not exactly a "party line" kinda person, but I would guess they spend a few weeks away from their parents and with friends, attending the occasional lecture and seminar on political issues and how it relates to them, ignore it totally and spend their time trying to catch the eye of members of the opposite sex, going swimming, playing silly games in the woods and all that kind of stuff.

Except the BNP Youth Wing, who engage in paramilitary combat training and have lectures on how the SS were totally awesome role models.  And Trotskyite Youth Wings, who presumably spend all their efforts in futile entryist tactics against more moderate left wing parties, and not getting laid.

Ah, so it's sort of the equivalent of cooed 'Mericun boyscouts/girlscouts but with a bit of politic and social discussion?  I'm not sure there's anything else here that's along those lines but then I don't have a child living here and there wasn't anything like that when I was growing up that I'm aware of.  

The paramilitary camps happen but I think they try to stay way way under the radar.

This really is new to me and reminds me just how little I know of the planet outside of my current borders.

ETA: I figured shit like this would have died after the Hitler Youth camps.  

Shows what I know.

More like the young Republicans than the Hitler youth.

This is actually starting to creep me out slightly.  I mean, myself and Anders Breivik were reading the same websites, at around pretty much the same time - for almost totally the opposite reasons.  I was worried about Islamic terrorism causing a fascist backlash, while he was preparing for it.

Damn it all to hell.  I tried to tell people I was worried about this kind of thing.  If Breivik was in London...damnit.  I said looking exclusively at Islamists would take attention off Republican dissidents and fascists - and here we are, three years later, with Republican dissidents shooting police and planting bombs in Belfast, and a fascist terrorist apparently wandering the streets of London, meeting with God only knows who. 

We could've caught him.

Your doppleganger with more fertile ground, too bad.

Quote from: Lenin McCarthy on July 24, 2011, 12:12:25 AMThe Labour Youth League is the youth organization of the Norwegian Labour Party. They held a summer camp this week where hundreds of young people aged between 13 to 25 were discussing politics, making friends, doing sports, listening to talks about various topics and watching their favorite bands play. Or brainwashed into accepting the social democratic paradigm, if that sounds better to you.

All the political parties here in Norway (except for the Pensioners' Party) have a youth wing. Not every of them has a summer camp; the Young Conservatives have an annual large conference at a finer hotel somewhere in the country. One of my former classmates bought champagne for about 10000 Norwegian Kroner (about 1000£) at one of those. When he was 16.  :p

I always assumed youth went there on their own choice, because they have political ambitions and want to become familiar with the party etc. But then, yeah, I assume a lot of them are there because of their parents/family as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14266815

QuoteThe suspect charged with carrying out a massacre at a youth camp in Norway and a bombing in the capital, Oslo, says he acted alone, police say.

Anders Behring Breivik, 32, admitted to carrying out both attacks, which he described as "gruesome but necessary".

At least 93 people were killed in Friday's attacks - 96 have been injured and some are still missing.

QuoteOn Sunday, police briefly detained and later released several people without charge in a raid in Oslo.

Mr Sponheim told reporters the suspect had property in the area of the raid and police were looking for traces of explosives, though nothing of value was found.

In an earlier news conference, he said Mr Breivik "admitted to the facts of both the bombing and the shooting, although he's not admitting criminal guilt".

"He says that he was alone but the police must verify everything that he said. Some of the witness statements from the island have made us unsure of whether there was one or more shooters."

Mr Sponheim said police were not looking for anyone else at the moment - though they had not ruled out that the suspect might have had help.

He said Mr Breivik, who has been charged over both attacks and is due to appear in court on Monday, had co-operated during his interrogation.

Mr Sponheim confirmed that the maximum time Mr Breivik could face in prison under Norwegian law is 21 years.

At least seven people were killed in the bomb attack on the government quarter in Oslo. Soon afterwards, 85 people were shot dead as a gunman, dressed as a policeman, ran amok on the nearby island of Utoeya. An 86th person died in hospital on Sunday.

The gunman was arrested when police arrived an estimated 90 minutes after the massacre began. Mr Breivik's lawyer said his client surrendered after running out of ammunition, but police later said he still had a lot with him.

At least four people from the island camp shooting are yet to be found; it is thought some may have drowned after swimming out into the lake to escape the hail of bullets.

QuoteMr Breivik's lawyer Geir Lippestad told Norwegian media: "He thought it was gruesome having to commit these acts, but in his head they were necessary.

"He wished to attack society and the structure of society," Mr Lippestad said.

He added that the actions had been planned for some time.

The suspect is reported to have had links with right-wing extremists.

Still pictures of him, wearing a wetsuit and carrying an automatic weapon, appeared in a 12-minute anti-Muslim video called Knights Templar 2083, which appeared briefly on YouTube.

A 1,500-page document written in English and said to be by Mr Breivik - posted under the pseudonym of Andrew Berwick - was also put online hours before the attacks, suggesting they had been years in the planning.

The document and the video repeatedly refer to multiculturalism and Muslim immigration; the author claims to be a follower of the Knights Templar - a medieval Christian organisation involved in the Crusades, and sometimes revered by white supremacists.

Police have not speculated on motives for the attack but the bomb in Oslo targeted buildings connected to Norway's governing Labour Party, and the youth camp on Utoeya island was also run by the party.

In the document posted online, references were made to targeting "cultural Marxists/ multiculturalist traitors".

21 years only? Maximum sentence? Wow

Quote from: Joh'Nyx on July 25, 2011, 12:57:24 AM

21 years only? Maximum sentence? Wow

The official maximum sentence is 21 years, but the sentence can be extended indefinitely, 5 years at a time, if the convict is considered a threat to society.

Quote from: Lenin McCarthy on July 25, 2011, 01:33:11 AM

Quote from: Joh'Nyx on July 25, 2011, 12:57:24 AM

21 years only? Maximum sentence? Wow

The official maximum sentence is 21 years, but the sentence can be extended indefinitely, 5 years at a time, if the convict is considered a threat to society.

That's what I read.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2011, 01:16:57 AM

Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 24, 2011, 01:11:25 AM
Pickle ive never heard of political youth camps here either. Ok off to rock just thought i would chime in as an american.

Compare to AWANA clubs.

Huh.  I was a uh CHAMP at Awana.  Go figure.

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on July 24, 2011, 04:06:03 AM

More like the young Republicans than the Hitler youth.

I...was one of THOSE, too.

Quote from: Cain on July 24, 2011, 04:21:27 AM
This is actually starting to creep me out slightly.  I mean, myself and Anders Breivik were reading the same websites, at around pretty much the same time - for almost totally the opposite reasons.  I was worried about Islamic terrorism causing a fascist backlash, while he was preparing for it.

Damn it all to hell.  I tried to tell people I was worried about this kind of thing.  If Breivik was in London...damnit.  I said looking exclusively at Islamists would take attention off Republican dissidents and fascists - and here we are, three years later, with Republican dissidents shooting police and planting bombs in Belfast, and a fascist terrorist apparently wandering the streets of London, meeting with God only knows who. 

We could've caught him.

Naw.  There're powers that be that don't want to catch these guys.

Just saying.

Quote from: Triple Zero on July 24, 2011, 04:31:35 PM

Quote from: Lenin McCarthy on July 24, 2011, 12:12:25 AMThe Labour Youth League is the youth organization of the Norwegian Labour Party. They held a summer camp this week where hundreds of young people aged between 13 to 25 were discussing politics, making friends, doing sports, listening to talks about various topics and watching their favorite bands play. Or brainwashed into accepting the social democratic paradigm, if that sounds better to you.

All the political parties here in Norway (except for the Pensioners' Party) have a youth wing. Not every of them has a summer camp; the Young Conservatives have an annual large conference at a finer hotel somewhere in the country. One of my former classmates bought champagne for about 10000 Norwegian Kroner (about 1000£) at one of those. When he was 16.  :p

I always assumed youth went there on their own choice, because they have political ambitions and want to become familiar with the party etc. But then, yeah, I assume a lot of them are there because of their parents/family as well.

What cheeses me off about shit like this is that here my own kids are, in a language class for Dari and Pushtu, the two official languages in Afghanistan, and some bastard fuck would naturally assume this means religious training.

It doesn't.  I checked.  It's through San Diego State University, and yes, funded by a grant, but there's no religion at all.  It's all cultural stuff--songs, dances, teaching the language OUTSIDE the fucking Q'uran...but some asshole would hear about a class like this and assume the people running it, yes, chardor wearing but not proselytizing...are recruiting my kids for jihad.

So yeah, we as parents put my kids into this class for 4 weeks in July to learn their dad's native language and culture in an academic setting...but that's it.  It's what-you-see-is-exactly-for-once-what-you-get.  Mowing down the KIDS for doing what their parents want them to do during the summer is...beyond evil.  It's...yeah, I don't know the word for that.

Quote from: Cain on July 23, 2011, 09:37:56 AMSuspect named

QuoteAnders Behring Breivik, the 32-year-old suspect in Friday's attacks in Norway, held right-wing views, say police. <snip>

Little is currently known about him apart from what has appeared on social networking sites such as Facebook and Twitter - and these entries appear to have been set up just days ago.

On the Facebook page attributed to him, he describes himself as <snip>

A Twitter account attributed to the suspect has also emerged but it only has one post, which is a quote from philosopher John Stuart Mill: "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests."

As with his Facebook page, the tweet was posted on 17 July. <snip>

Cain where did you get this quote/article?

Because I'm still curious about the Facebook page, this article seems to suggest that not only the Twitter account but also the Facebook page did not exist before 17th of July. I'm not sure but I think this is the only place I actually read that. Could it be that they were wrong about that bit because it's one of the earliest reports mistakes?

I'm asking because of this (otherwise rather uninteresting) column: Breivik was my friend on Facebook (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/24/anders-breivik-facebook-hatred), which would be quite suspect if the account did not exist before the 17th. She does not name a date when "one day" he sent her a friend-request.

That was from a BBC article, published around the time I posted it.

It may not exist anymore, given the BBC is using a different from normal method of relaying the story (multi-page updated stories, rather than seperate entries), but at the time of posting, that was what the article said.

Of course, it is possible Breivik had more than one account.  This "Andrew Berwick" identity, for example.

Oh shit

QuoteNorwegian police are investigating claims by Anders Behring Breivik, who has admitted carrying out Friday's twin attacks in Norway, that he has "two more cells" working with him.

Mr Breivik made the claim at his first court hearing since the bombing in Oslo and massacre at an island youth camp.

Police have now revised down the island killings from 86 to 68 but increased the bomb death toll by one to eight.

QuoteThe judge said Mr Breivik had argued that he was acting to save Norway and Europe from "Marxist and Muslim colonisation".

The gunman had said his operation was not aimed at killing as many people as possible but that he wanted to create the greatest loss possible to Norway's governing Labour Party, which he accused of failing the country on immigration.

The bomb in Oslo targeted buildings connected to the Labour Party government, and the youth camp on Utoeya island was also run by the party.

Like you said Trip, this was designed to do maximum possible damage to the Norwegian Labour Party.

...reminds me of something that Ayaan Hirsi Ali said when talking about her brief stint in the Dutch Parliament.  That the immigration laws in a lot of European countries that seem to offer more...clemency?...egress?...such as the Netherlands (and perhaps Demark, Norway and Sweden?  I confess I don't know their differences) in the 90's created less of a conducive environment for the Muslims coming in and instead created despair and cultural confusion amongst both the immigrants AND the indigenous.

Basically, the lack of forced integration meant that the Muslim families that came predominantly from African or Arab cultures were given enough freedom to try to integrate but none of the real tools with which to do so.  Their use of public funds for their care and upkeep as they struggled to find their way caused resentment amongst the European folks who were born there, and the Muslims ended up resenting the atmosphere that was so very strange from where they came but they didn't educate themselves enough to see that this difference wasn't evil or harmful to their children.

So extremism bred on both sides.

Ali's reasoning for why the government should've curtailed the immigrants' more restrictive cultural practices, especially vis a vis women and children, via legislature are seen as mightily biased and anti-Muslim.  However, I think she at least got the PROBLEM if not the SOLUTION right, to a certain degree (in other words, as far as I can fathom it with the little knowledge I have on the area).

Conservative author "stunned to discover" that his book was cited by Breivik. (And his named mentioned 22 times in the manifesto).
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903999904576465801154130960.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Book is called While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam Is Destroying the West from Within.

Quote from: Igor on July 25, 2011, 06:46:05 PM
Conservative author "stunned to discover" that his book was cited by Breivik. (And his named mentioned 22 times in the manifesto).
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903999904576465801154130960.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Book is called While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam Is Destroying the West from Within.

What a shocker.

Also, Bawer does exactly what would be predicted. The beginning of the article looks like it's a introspective look into what contributions he may have had to these attacks.

Then, of course, he goes on to state that this is a blow to an urgent issue at a dangerous time, and how it's going to ruin it for other "critics of Islam."

Also, Eurospags, what can you tell me about this? I imagine that it's terribly blown out of proportion. But I imagine Islamophobia has a different kind of flavor than it does here in the US:

QuoteMuslim gay-bashing is driving gays out of Amsterdam. Muslim Jew-bashing is driving Jews out of Gothenburg, Sweden. And let's not forget about the shameful trials of politician Geert Wilders in the Netherlands and historian Lars Hedegaard in Denmark, which demonstrate how the fear of Muslim wrath is squelching the freedom of speech of those who dare to criticize Islam.

Quote from: Cain on July 25, 2011, 05:49:33 PMOh shit

QuoteNorwegian police are investigating claims by Anders Behring Breivik, who has admitted carrying out Friday's twin attacks in Norway, that he has "two more cells" working with him.

Mr Breivik made the claim at his first court hearing since the bombing in Oslo and massacre at an island youth camp.

Police have now revised down the island killings from 86 to 68 but increased the bomb death toll by one to eight.

QuoteThe judge said Mr Breivik had argued that he was acting to save Norway and Europe from "Marxist and Muslim colonisation".

The gunman had said his operation was not aimed at killing as many people as possible but that he wanted to create the greatest loss possible to Norway's governing Labour Party, which he accused of failing the country on immigration.

The bomb in Oslo targeted buildings connected to the Labour Party government, and the youth camp on Utoeya island was also run by the party.

Like you said Trip, this was designed to do maximum possible damage to the Norwegian Labour Party.

I forget where or how, but I first heard this theory yesterday evening or earlier today. It sounds really plausible. Especially the older youth there were probably quite likely to fill the ranks of the real Labour Party later on in life.

Quote from: Jenne on July 25, 2011, 06:45:06 PM...reminds me of something that Ayaan Hirsi Ali said when talking about her brief stint in the Dutch Parliament.  That the immigration laws in a lot of European countries that seem to offer more...clemency?...egress?...such as the Netherlands (and perhaps Demark, Norway and Sweden?  I confess I don't know their differences) in the 90's created less of a conducive environment for the Muslims coming in and instead created despair and cultural confusion amongst both the immigrants AND the indigenous.

Basically, the lack of forced integration meant that the Muslim families that came predominantly from African or Arab cultures were given enough freedom to try to integrate but none of the real tools with which to do so.  Their use of public funds for their care and upkeep as they struggled to find their way caused resentment amongst the European folks who were born there, and the Muslims ended up resenting the atmosphere that was so very strange from where they came but they didn't educate themselves enough to see that this difference wasn't evil or harmful to their children.

So extremism bred on both sides.

Ali's reasoning for why the government should've curtailed the immigrants' more restrictive cultural practices, especially vis a vis women and children, via legislature are seen as mightily biased and anti-Muslim.  However, I think she at least got the PROBLEM if not the SOLUTION right, to a certain degree (in other words, as far as I can fathom it with the little knowledge I have on the area).

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Even though I generally don't agree with Hirsi Ali's political viewpoints (being rather right-wing), she's not stupid.

Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 25, 2011, 06:58:45 PMAlso, Eurospags, what can you tell me about this? I imagine that it's terribly blown out of proportion. But I imagine Islamophobia has a different kind of flavor than it does here in the US:

QuoteMuslim gay-bashing is driving gays out of Amsterdam. Muslim Jew-bashing is driving Jews out of Gothenburg, Sweden. And let's not forget about the shameful trials of politician Geert Wilders in the Netherlands and historian Lars Hedegaard in Denmark, which demonstrate how the fear of Muslim wrath is squelching the freedom of speech of those who dare to criticize Islam.

I don't know, what is the context for that quote? Muslims bashing gays in Amsterdam? Could be. Gayness is against their religion (generalisation)? I don't really understand what this quote is trying to say, though.

Its from that article mmix linked.

It's PROOF that the villainous Mohammedans are forcing their WAY OF LIFE over our LIBERAL and DEMOCRATIC values (and so we should exile them all to Somalia, to die painful and bloody deaths.  Just like Voltaire and John Locke would've recommended).

To be honest, that kinda stuff does happen occasionally, in the UK and so probably elsewhere.  But it's not like the local mosque will go around organizing gay-bashing expeditions, in most places.

Also, the demographic "threat" Bawer and others constantly go on about is massively overhyped as well.  Basically, every Muslim in Europe would have to have equal amounts of kids to those in Palestine and Yemen (two of the highest birthrates in the world) consistently for the next 50 years, while all of Europe would have to suffer the kind of demograhic decline Russia has supposedly suffered (I doubt the official statistics, but you know the ones I mean) during the same period.  It's a statistical impossibility, in other words.

Anonymous is targeting the manifesto:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/anonymous-targets-norway-killers-manifesto/

Interesting idea. Not sure what to make of it, though.

"Operation UnManifest"?  :lulz:  Interesting.  So they truly see themselves as the Super Heroes of the interbutts.

Having thought about it, I think I know what to make of it. It's fucking stupid. Anon is supposed to know about the Streissand effect. They're just going to give it more credence.

Also, make it more stupid? Good grief. That's quite the task. Also if they end up successful (uhuh), neonazitards are going to assume that the original undamaged version was probably much better than it actually was.

But they won't succeed, they'll get bored too quickly, the original will resurface, and that's it.

Yeah, I think they need to realize that powerful, swift, targeted attacks, sparsely contributed, have more effect than all the "every piece of news we have to insert ourselves into" sort of schtick they have going on at the moment.  

They must be mega-bored (even for anon).  

British intelligence are investigating who Breivik met with during his time in the UK.  It is known he associated with members of the EDL, who have condemned the attacks.  British papers have speculated the plot was hatched, at least in part, in London.

I hope Special Branch are not investigating, though.  Most of them are up to their necks in the News of the World corruption scandal (Special Branch being involved in "political crimes" and thus the most politically useful sources of information for Murdoch's minions) and the scandal could affect their investigation and testimony.

Actually I didn't link it it was Igor

Quote from: Igor on July 25, 2011, 06:46:05 PM
Conservative author "stunned to discover" that his book was cited by Breivik. (And his named mentioned 22 times in the manifesto).
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903999904576465801154130960.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Book is called While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam Is Destroying the West from Within.

Fortuitously while I was googling to find the original I came across this little gem:-

      

QuotePersonal message Hello, I saw this on Care2 and thought you'd like it as well. Care2 is the largest and most trusted information and action site for people who care to make a difference in their lives and the world.
   

Pat Buchanan Says Norway Shooter's Islamophobic Message Was Right

    * by Amelia T.
    * July 26, 2011
    * 9:57 am


Nobody is suggesting that the actions of Anders Behring Breivik, the man suspected of bombing several buildings in downtown Oslo and then embarking on a shooting spree at an island youth camp, were acceptable — at least, not yet.  But a disturbing number of people are stepping forward to defend Breivik's message, and to label him a violent but prophetic herald of the coming struggle between Muslims and Europeans.

Pat Buchanan, in a piece for The American Conservative, is the latest to declare that the real threat to Europe is not "native born and homegrown terrorism.  That threat," he continues, "comes from a burgeoning Muslim presence in a Europe that has never known mass immigration, its failure to assimilate, its growing alienation, and its sometime sympathy for Islamic militants and terrorists."

Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/pat-buchanan-says-norway-shooters-islamophobic-message-was-right.html#ixzz1TEaPadoc

Surprise!  Crazy old racist loon who idolises Prussian militarism thinks Muslims are infecting the pale, flabby underbelly of Europe (ignore that Muslims have been in Europe for 1400 years).

Yes, but Cain, these are the wrong kind of Muslims.

In Buchanan's world, that is all of them.

Point.  Same with gays, African-Americans...non-Christians of ANY kind...secularists...

Quotehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/26/glenn-beck-norwegian-dead-hitler (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/26/glenn-beck-norwegian-dead-hitler)
Glenn Beck likens Norwegian dead to Hitler youth

Glenn Beck, the rightwing US broadcaster and Tea Party favourite, has compared those who were massacred on the Norwegian island of Utøya to the Nazi party's youth wing.

"There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like the Hitler youth, or, whatever. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics. Disturbing," said Beck on his syndicated radio show.

The Tea Party (http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/tea-party-group-offers-summer-camp/1175119), apparently. For kids aged 8-12. To me that sounds somewhat more disturbing.

Yes, soon we'll be hearing how this Norwegian bastardo deserves a medal for standing up against Al Qaeda and worldwide Muslim terrorism.

...if we haven't already?

What a disgusting, odious little shit.

It's difficult to imagine anyone saying something like that with the direct intent to distract people from the fact that not all terrorists wear turbans. Regardless, I disliked Beck before, now it has sunk to absolute disgust.

Is it wrong to hope that he dies soon from some really humiliating and discrediting death like overdosing on heroin while attempting autoerotic asphyxiation with an illegal Latino pre-op?

:lulz: Dunno, but it's funny.

Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 27, 2011, 04:10:18 AM
Is it wrong to hope that he dies soon from some really humiliating and discrediting death like overdosing on heroin while attempting autoerotic asphyxiation with an illegal Latino pre-op?

Only if Rush Limbaugh isn't in the mix.  I think they're a matched set.

Quote from: Jenne on July 27, 2011, 05:34:51 AM

Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on July 27, 2011, 04:10:18 AM
Is it wrong to hope that he dies soon from some really humiliating and discrediting death like overdosing on heroin while attempting autoerotic asphyxiation with an illegal Latino pre-op?

Only if Rush Limbaugh isn't in the mix.  I think they're a matched set.

Point.

Norwegian intelligence believes Breivik doesn't have links with UK extremists.

I'm going to wait until we hear from the UK on that one.  Sorry, I just find it very hard to believe Oslo has that many UK-based assets, for obvious reasons (we're military allies anyway, and Norway doesn't have a huge population from which to recruit, and so has to use its existing assets in a careful and strategic manner).  I've no doubt they can handle the internal aspects of the investigation very well, but they're going to need allied intelligence agencies to do the international legwork, especially as they're now looking at contacts he may have had in other European countries.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/393042/july-25-2011/norwegian-muslish-gunman-s-islam-esque-atrocity

Quote from: Jenne on July 28, 2011, 02:52:32 AM
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/393042/july-25-2011/norwegian-muslish-gunman-s-islam-esque-atrocity

I love the message that colbertnation sends at us Brits when we want to watch it's clips.

"Dear Great Britain
We're terribly sorry, but full episodes and video clips of The Colbert Report are not available. But please don't send any Red Coats in retaliation at this time, as you CAN experience the truthiness at FXUK."

Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on July 28, 2011, 07:13:49 PM

Quote from: Jenne on July 28, 2011, 02:52:32 AM
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/393042/july-25-2011/norwegian-muslish-gunman-s-islam-esque-atrocity

I love the message that colbertnation sends at us Brits when we want to watch it's clips.

"Dear Great Britain
We're terribly sorry, but full episodes and video clips of The Colbert Report are not available. But please don't send any Red Coats in retaliation at this time, as you CAN experience the truthiness at FXUK."

Aw, sorry.  Does that mean you can't watch them?  It's the beginning of his segment from Tuesday? I think it was.  ETA:  duh, the date's in the URL, I'm such a derp.

Best bet is to pirate them.  While FX do have a consistently good programming (being the first UK channel to show Dexter, The Walking Dead and Burn Notice, among others) they're only available via pay for options, most normally Sky.  And FX ain't worth that package deal of suck and fail.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14354216

Breivik had a number of targets for that Friday, it seems.  I did wonder...the fact he didn't shoot himself to evade capture suggested he intended to get away and attack again at some point, but it looks like something went wrong with his plans for an extended terror campaign.

From Breivik's manifesto:

QuotePauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici – PCCTS (the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon), the Knights Templar was re-founded in London in 2002 by representatives from eight European countries... The founding session (two meetings consisting of 4 founding members and host as a security precaution) was held in London, United Kingdom – Apr, 2002.

Founding (re-founding) members:
Anonymous 1 – Nationality: English Protestant (Host)
Anonymous 2 – Nationality: English Christian atheist
Anonymous 3 – Nationality: French Catholic
Anonymous 4 – Nationality: German Christian atheist
Anonymous 5 – Nationality: Dutch Christian agnostic
Anonymous 6 – Nationality: Greek Orthodox
Anonymous 7 – Nationality: Russian Christian atheist
Anonymous 8 – Nationality: Norwegian Protestant (member and proxy for 9)
Anonymous 9 – Nationality: Serbian Orthodox (by proxy, location: Monrovia, Liberia)

Unable to attend:

Anonymous 10 – Nationality: Swedish
Anonymous 11 – Nationality: Belgian
Anonymous 12 – Nationality: European-American

QuoteI came in contact with Serbian cultural conservatives through the internet. This initial contact would eventually result in my contact with several key individuals all over Europe and the forming of the group who would later establish the military order and tribunal, PCCTS, Knights Templar... According to one of them, they were considering several hundred individuals throughout Europe for a training course. I met with them for the first time in London and later on two occasions in Balticum. I had the privilege of meeting one of the greatest living war heroes of Europe at the time, a Serbian crusader and war hero who had killed many Muslims in battle. Due to EU persecution for alleged crimes against Muslims he was living at one point in Liberia. I visited him in Monrovia once, just before the founding session in London, 2002.

I was the youngest one there, 23 years old at the time... There were only 5 people in London re-founding the order and tribunal (1 by proxy) but there were around 25-30 attending in Balticum during the two sessions, individuals from all over Europe; Germany, France, Sweden, the UK, Denmark, Balticum, Benelux, Spain, Italy, Greece, Hungary, Austria, Armenia, Lebanon and Russia. Electronic or telephonic communication was completely prohibited, before, during and after the meetings. On our last meeting it was emphasised clearly that we cut off contact indefinitely.

...This was not a stereotypical "right wing" meeting full of underprivileged racist skinheads with a short temper, but quite the opposite. Most of them were successful entrepreneurs, business or political leaders, some with families, most of them Christian conservatives but also some agnostics and even atheists... I was asked, not only once but twice, by my mentor; let's call him Richard, to write a second edition of his compendium about the new European Knighthood....

There have been attempts in the UK to tie both Paul Ray (the blogger "Lionheart") and Alan Lake, a far-right financier, to Breivik and imply they are "Richard", his "English mentor".  Neither are convincing, however.

Seems there's also a bunch of URLs (which partially decode to GPS co-ordinates) buried in the manifesto.....

(http://i.imgur.com/zjiIo.jpg)

Although I'm loathe to use any source found on Godlikeproductions, this above picture purports to show all of those coordinates.  And this link http://analysis.no.net/

Just looked at the London locations.  They're...odd.  At first, I thought one was the Liverpool Street Station, where one of the 7/7 bombings took place.  But as I zoomed in closer, it was a restaurant near the station.  The second was Charles Dickens Primary School in Southwark.  The third was an unspecified address in Westminter, on St George's Drive.

...are these proposed targets?  I'm missing something, sorry.

No-one knows.  Except Breivik, presumably.  There were hidden, as URLs in the footnotes of his incredibly tedious manifesto, but the URLs do not correspond to any known sites.  When decoded though, it turns out that they are coordinates...which lead to these locations.

Yuck.  What a clusterfuck.

Quote from: Cain on August 08, 2011, 05:06:57 PM
No-one knows.  Except Breivik, presumably.  There were hidden, as URLs in the footnotes of his incredibly tedious manifesto, but the URLs do not correspond to any known sites.  When decoded though, it turns out that they are coordinates...which lead to these locations.

The site I saw this on mentioned that they're not sure what co-ordinate system the codes are in exactly, which means the Street Addresses are "approximate". It's weird, tho.... I wonder if the locations sync up with that list of 'Templars' in some fashion.

Quote from: Telarus on August 08, 2011, 05:16:49 PM

Quote from: Cain on August 08, 2011, 05:06:57 PM
No-one knows.  Except Breivik, presumably.  There were hidden, as URLs in the footnotes of his incredibly tedious manifesto, but the URLs do not correspond to any known sites.  When decoded though, it turns out that they are coordinates...which lead to these locations.

The site I saw this on mentioned that they're not sure what co-ordinate system the codes are in exactly, which means the Street Addresses are "approximate". It's weird, tho.... I wonder if the locations sync up with that list of 'Templars' in some fashion.

Yeah, the analysis website above makes the same point.  However, assuming a "standard" coordinate system, they make little sense.

Also found out from the above site that Breivik had a Pirate Bay account: http://thepiratebay.org/user/RecycledElectrons/

Shit.  Shit shit shit.  I do not need to know this.

From Pamella Geller's site, Atlas Shrugged (note: Geller is now the leader of the Stop the Islamification of America, the sister organisation to the Stop the Islamification of Europe, closely allied with groups like the EDL).  Geller recieved an email from Norway, and here is an excerpt from it:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/06/email-from-norw.html

Quote"I am running an email I received from an Atlas reader in Norway. It is devastating in its matter-of-factness.

"Well, yes, the situation is worsening. Stepping up from 29 000 immigrants every year, in 2007 we will be getting a total of 35 000 immigrants from somalia, iran, iraq and afghanistan. The nations capital is already 50% muslim, and they ALL go there after entering Norway. Adding the 1.2 births per woman per year from muslim women, there will be 300 000+ muslims out of the then 480 000 inhabitants of that city.

"Orders from Libya and Iran say that Oslo will be known as Medina at the latest in 2010, although I consider this a PR-stunt nevertheless it is their plan.

"From Israel the hordes clawing at the walls of Jerusalem proclaim cheerfully that next year there will be no more Israel, and I know Israel shrugs this off as do I, and will mount a strike during the summer against all of its enemies in the middle east. This will make the muslims worldwide go into a frenzy, attacking everyone around them.

"We are stockpiling and caching weapons, ammunition and equipment. This is going to happen fast.

Geller purposefully witheld the identity of this individual at the time, for their protection from the Norwegian authorities.

We know Breivik read Geller avidly.  We know he posted links to her website, under the username "Anders Behring". 

In 2009, Geller attended a rally in Oslo (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/01/oslo-pro-israel.html).  Breivik was also present (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=217210&page=4) ("Norge" is Breivik).

There is enough here to merit, at the very least, an intelligence investigation into Geller and her associates, funding and activities.

In other news, there was this odd story (http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10080716) out of Norway.  A man is shot dead by two masked men in military uniform.  Lenin McCarthy, I don't suppose you could shed any light on it?  I'm not saying it is connected, only that it seems...well, odd.  And I'm on the lookout for Norwegian related anomalies right now.

After what I've heard, that shooting was just regular mafia violence (not very usual in Norway, but it happens).

Anomalies? Well, a local mayoral candidate for the far right Democrats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demokratene) party, former leader of the Norwegian Defence League and active member of Stop the Islamisation of Norway was caught on tape in February saying he would love to assassinate a government member (or all of them). (http://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/article3202706.ece) Crazy gun nut, but probably harmless. I greatly enjoy reading his blog posts, so I'm hoping he won't shut his blog down after this.

Hm, fair enough.

It sounds more and more like the whole Norwegian "counter-jihadist" subculture are terrorist cells in the making.

OK, this is somewhat odd.

http://northerntrumpet.com/2011/08/27/shocker-norwegian-police-conducted-drill-for-a-%E2%80%9Cpractically-identical-scenario%E2%80%9D-right-before-the-utoya-attack/

QuoteJust hours before Anders Behring Breivik launched his deadly attack at a political summer camp on Utoya island on July 22, police had conducted a drill for a "practically identical scenario", Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten reports.

Sources within the top level management of the police in Oslo have confirmed to Aftenposten that the drill finished at 15:00 that same Friday. The bomb attributed to Breivik went off only 26 minutes after the anti-terror drill finished, according to officials.

According to Aftenposten all of the officers from the anti-terror unit who took part in the action and arrest of Breivik had a full week training on a mobile terrorist attack scenario in which one or more perpetrators only goal is to shoot as many people as possible and then shoot the police when they arrive.

"Chance would have it that way", a key police source who wishes to remain anonymous, told Aftenposten.

Here is the Aftenposten piece, and here is a translation:

http://mobil.aftenposten.no/article.htm?articleId=4208952

QuoteFour days in advance, and also the same Friday the attack was carried out, the
police special unit trained on an ongoing terror campaign that was approximately
equal to the situation that hours later, met the 22 police officers within the
emergency squad on Utøya.

//Aftenposten have confirmation from key sources in the Oslo police management that
the exercise was terminated at 3PM that very Friday.

All officers from the emergency squad that participated in the government quarter
after the car bomb and later came ashore on Utøya, arresting Anders Behring Breivik,
had earlier that same day and in the days ahead participated in training on an
identical scenario.

The police barely completed the exercise, before what they had been training for,
became reality.

As far as Aftenposten has been informed, the training transcended directly into what
the policed then faced in the Tyrifjord that very day; a mobile terror attack, in
which one or more perpetrators only goal was to shoot as many people as possible and
then shoot the police when they arrived.

- It was very close to facit. Chance would have it that way, says a key police
source, who declined to quoted by name.

//Massacre

The police did not train on a scenario including as many victims as they met on Utøya.

The police special unit trains continuously. But every quarter, they have "sections"
where they train for different types of scenarios.

These are different scenarios police envisions might occur where the emergency squad
must be inserted. There may be actions indoors, in cities or outside in other
environments.

According to police, this is a scenario they train on several times a year and has
trained for, for several years, especially after specific events in other countries.

//26 minutes

Only 26 minutes after the emergency squad´s training had concluded, the car bomb
went off in the government quarter. The Emergency Squad arrived early on the scene.

At 3.30PM, the staff at the Oslo police learned about a shooting at Utøya. They put
so much trust in the the message, that the emergency squad entered the cars, already
positioned in the government quarter and cars that came from the police station at
Grønland in Oslo.

On the way they had problems contacting the North Buskerud Police District, but at
6.02PM, six minutes before they arrived, they established contact and agreed to meet
at Storøya.

Once there, seven people from the emergency squad and three police officers from
Nordre Buskerud Police District boarded a 4.9 meter long rubber dinghy. This was so
heavily loaded that it began taking in water. The police were assisted by a civilian
boat and sailed towards Utøya.

This is the shit Rupert Sheldrake has been trying to warn us about!!

Yeah, that was weird.

Another oddity: Two days ago, a friend of a friend went back to the island to get her iPod. The time on it was frozen at 13:37.  :fnord:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/03/uk-norway-killings-idUSLNE79204Z20111003

QuotePolice is Oslo say they want to interview Alan Lake, whom they believe is a key figure in Britain's anti-Islamist English Defence League EDL.L, to find out if he may have been an ideological source of inspiration to Breivik.

"Alan Lake is an obvious person we would like to speak to," Oslo police prosecutor Paal-Fredrik Hjort Kraby told Reuters.

He added: "At this point in the investigation there is no indication that anyone knew about his (Breivik's) plans."

The English Defence League said in an email to Reuters that Lake had "absolutely nothing to do with the EDL". Lake could not be reached for comment but has previously denied being a senior member of the EDL.

Alan Lake is, unfortunately, a liar

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/30/alan-lake-english-defence-league

QuoteA senior member of the English Defence League, who founded a far-right website carrying articles by bloggers closely monitored by the Norwegian gunman Anders Behring Breivik, published an online essay discussing the execution and torture of the UK's political and religious leaders.

On 23 May 2010, Alan Lake posted on his 4 Freedoms website an article outlining his belief that "in 20 or 30 years the UK will start to fragment into Islamic enclaves". He went on: "It's time we decide... who we will force in the Islamic enclaves (and who we will execute if they sneak out.) By forcing these liberal twits into those enclaves, we will be sending them to their death at worst, and at best they and their families will be subjected to all the depredations, persecution and abuse that non-Muslims worldwide currently 'enjoy' in countries like Pakistan... It will be great to see them executed or tortured to death."

Lake urged visitors to the site to contribute the names of people who should be sent to the Islamic enclaves and made three of his own suggestions. He suggested that the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, should be a candidate on the grounds that he "approves of the creation and use of sharia courts". David Cameron, he explained, should be included in the discussion "to help refine our criteria about who deserves to die at the hands of the Muslim overlords". He also included Nick Clegg on the grounds that he is "such an angelic and pure person that he upholds various 'human rights' issues more important than plebeian matters of public safety".

Soon after his posting, Lake removed the references to execution and torture. "I took it back after one day," he said. "I said, 'This doesn't help.' I'm not perfect, I will make mistakes. But the fundamental point of that piece is correct. I am holding people responsible for the consequences of their actions."

In interviews outlining the EDL's philosophy, Lake describes himself as its"events director". He has admitted to loaning the EDL equipment, but denied claims he bankrolls the organisation.

Users of the 4 Freedoms site have posted articles by a far-right blogger known as Fjordman who was extensively cited by Breivik in the 1,500-page manifesto he issued shortly after the mass killings. On a separate far right website, Gates of Vienna, Breivik is believed to have posted a tribute to Fjordman , under the internet pseudonym "year2183".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1238213/This-England-On-trail-English-Defence-League.html

QuoteAlarmingly, the EDL is becoming more sophisticated and those orchestrating its activities at the top are far more astute than its foot soldiers. I meet two of the EDL's key figures in a Covent Garden pub - a respectable looking man called Alan Lake, and a man who goes by the moniker 'Kinana'.

Lake is a 45-year-old computer expert from Highgate, north London who runs a far-right website called Four Freedoms. This summer he contacted the EDL and offered to both fund and advise the movement.

'Our leaders in this country no longer represent us,' he says.

Lake's aim is to unite the 'thinkers' and those prepared to take to the streets. He describes this marriage as 'the perfect storm coming together'. Lake says that street violence is not desirable but sometimes inevitable.

'There are issues when you are dealing with football thugs but what can we do?'

He criticises fascist organisations, however, and says he will only support the EDL so long as it doesn't associate with the BNP. When I ask about extremists hijacking the movement, he says: 'There are different groups infiltrating and trying to cause rifts by one means or another, or trying to waylay the organisation to different agendas. The intention is to exclude those groups and individuals.'

These men are outwardly intelligent and their political nous combined with the brawn of the casuals makes them a quasi-political force.

Britain's neo-Nazis realise this. For Kevin Watmough, leader of the neo-Nazi British People's Party and a former member of the National Front, the rise of the EDL is reminiscent of the Seventies.

'The protests remind me of the National Front marches, but I wouldn't march with the EDL because they have blacks as supporters,' he told me.

But other neo-Nazis have joined EDL demos. These include members of Combat 18 and the British Freedom Fighters, who later posted videos of themselves on the internet.

I'll be surprised if Lake was intimately involved in Breivik's attack, but leaning hard on him may lead to him coughing up some names of people more likely to have been.

Anders Behring Breivik has been delcared insane by psychiatrists

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15936276

QuotePsychiatrists assessing self-confessed Norwegian mass killer Anders Behring Breivik have concluded that he is suffering from paranoid schizophrenia.

They believe he was in a psychotic state during the twin attacks on 22 July that led to the deaths of 77 people and injured 151.

He was also insane during the 13 interviews the two psychiatrists held with them, a news conference heard.

Breivik admits carrying out the attacks but has pleaded not guilty to charges.

He has previously said the attacks were atrocious but "necessary".

The two psychiatrists, in their report, concluded that he lived in his "own delusional universe where all his thoughts and acts are guided by his delusions".

I find this assessment suspect as hell.

I have my suspicions that this conclusion was obtained because it was decided that sending Breivik to prison would be less than ideal, given the severity of his crimes, and that indefinite incarceration was the preferable option.

Paranoid schizophrenia only fits if you consider Breivik's beliefs about the world to be delusional - which they are, but no more so than most political ideologies and certainly not to the level that psychology normally recognizes as a delusion, and his cold, unemotional response to what he did.  He doesn't seem to have hallucinations, that we have been made aware of, show significant verbal or linguistic confusion, show grossly disorganized behaviour (just the opposite, in fact) or show significant interpersonal or occupation related dysfunction.

As such, the treatments wont work, Breivik wont recant, the Norwegian authorities will keep him locked up forever.

Quote from: Cain on November 29, 2011, 01:10:11 PM
Anders Behring Breivik has been delcared insane by psychiatrists

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15936276

QuotePsychiatrists assessing self-confessed Norwegian mass killer Anders Behring Breivik have concluded that he is suffering from paranoid schizophrenia.

They believe he was in a psychotic state during the twin attacks on 22 July that led to the deaths of 77 people and injured 151.

He was also insane during the 13 interviews the two psychiatrists held with them, a news conference heard.

Breivik admits carrying out the attacks but has pleaded not guilty to charges.

He has previously said the attacks were atrocious but "necessary".

The two psychiatrists, in their report, concluded that he lived in his "own delusional universe where all his thoughts and acts are guided by his delusions".

I find this assessment suspect as hell.

I have my suspicions that this conclusion was obtained because it was decided that sending Breivik to prison would be less than ideal, given the severity of his crimes, and that indefinite incarceration was the preferable option.

Paranoid schizophrenia only fits if you consider Breivik's beliefs about the world to be delusional - which they are, but no more so than most political ideologies and certainly not to the level that psychology normally recognizes as a delusion, and his cold, unemotional response to what he did.  He doesn't seem to have hallucinations, that we have been made aware of, show significant verbal or linguistic confusion, show grossly disorganized behaviour (just the opposite, in fact) or show significant interpersonal or occupation related dysfunction.

As such, the treatments wont work, Breivik wont recant, the Norwegian authorities will keep him locked up forever.

It also helps to turn his actions into a narrative people can understand. The idea that it was motivated because the closeness of the mainstream parties and their domination of the system meant his political ideology could not gain ground is a strike against democracy. That is a dangerous notion and implies that there's more people out there than we might be comfortable with who are willing to resort to the same tactics. Only smudgy people can be terrorists, and they have to be motivated by religion (fundamentalist religion, too, which is often characterized as a kind of insanity). Making him a psychopathic madman helps to de-legitimize his actions and tossing him in the crazy bin forever for the safety of himself and others is perfectly understandable.

It makes him a figure of pity, rather than a political figure. It also makes it far less likely that the threat of right wing extremism and organized racist groups are going to get seriously looked at, which I find pretty troubling.

Indeed.  It may prevent a martyr being made of him, but half the "counter-Jihadists" are convinced the entire political-legal system is in cahoots with Muslim extremists anyway, and so they will draw the same conclusion I have, just from a different (ie; incorrect) perspective.

Quote
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-22/norway-forensic-board-approves-breivik-insanity-evaluation-1-.html
Norway's Board of Forensic Medicine approved a psychiatric evaluation that found mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik insane after killing 77 people in a July 22 bombing attack and a shooting spree.

"There are no significant comments on the evaluation," the board, led by psychiatrist Karl Heinrik Melle, said in a one-sentence opinion released today by Oslo District Court.

Yesterday, Norwegian media reported that at least three of the seven board members were critical of the report. Now, they're all in agreement that the report is completely fine. Wat.

From Breivik's manifesto:

QuoteI had the privilege of meeting one of the greatest living war heroes of Europe at the time, a Serbian crusader and war hero who had killed many Muslims in battle. Due to EU persecution for alleged crimes against Muslims he was living at one point in Liberia. I visited him in Monrovia once, just before the founding session in London, 2002.

And now this http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7928517

For those people who are not Iron Waffle or Lenin McCartney, I shall give you a summary of what it says: Breivik was in Liberia in 2002, and Serbian mercenaries were also present in the country at the time, and weapons were being smuggled by them from Serbia into Liberia to help in the conflict there.

This, of course, does not confirm that there was a network behind Breivik or that it supported the attack...but it makes the claim a hell of a lot more credible than it originally was.  That Breivik was messing around in a civil war at 23 years of age is also very interesting in its own right, and merits further investigation.

Here's a short clip of ABB as he is led into the courtroom.

Seeing him like this for the first time makes me want to puke, cry and punch something.

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7982759 (article can be translated if you want)

He's not a psychopath.  Sociopath maybe, but my gut says there's more at work than simple bad wiring. 

 I wasn't sure until I saw the video.  He's too composed for schizophrenia.  I've been an avid student of schizophrenia since I was a kid, and I've had a job where I worked closely with them daily for over a year.

I know Schizophrenia.  It is absent from his actions and his outward behavior.

Quote from: Telarus on July 24, 2011, 01:01:36 AM
http://www.oysteinrunde.no/#post18

Comments from a Norwegian spag on the ground:

The tragedy on Utøya - an attempt to understand

Anders Behring Breivik is the man who personally, slowly, cold-bloodedly executed eighty teenagers at Utøya, Norway. I have spent the whole night thinking and reading his writings and trying to understand what drove him. I am in two minds about sharing his writings, because ideas are powerful, no matter where they come from and how tainted they - in the outset of things - seem. I think he was smart enough to know this.

I think he wanted to save the world from muslims.

I think his mind was set on saving the world. Saving the "pure", clean ... norwegianness. For some reason, he was thinking these thoughts first, and then he committed the most disgusting, tear-inducing, awful crime I am capable of imagining. Serial killers act out of a sexual-like sick drive. Dictators kill out of paranoia. Anyone can kill if group pressure becomes a factor, like Zimbardo proved. But this? What is this? What IS this?

He is born in 1979, like me, and he is tall and rather norwegian-looking, like me. His facebook page lists George Orwells "1984" and Kafkas "The Trial" as favorite books. Two of my favorite books. I have family members called Breivik.

Anders B has posted a great deal of texts on the internet, in particular on a norwegian right wing islam-critical christian blog. For me, christianity has a lot of humanistic, wonderful tones. "What would Jesus do" is a beautiful, simple credo that every christian in the world should have tattoed on their bodies. What is Anders Behring Breiviks christianity?

There they are, his words. His mind. He brags that he is rich, that he has had successful businesses that allowed him to live without working, to plan for his great book on how muslims will take over the western world. His values: Protestant christianity. Culture-conservativeness. He is a freemason, whatever one can make out of that. He was, some years ago, a member of the right-wing political party Frp - he claims they got a huge amount of success when he worked for them, because of his great understanding of how to market ideas.

Even more reason for me not to write in this blog. He is marketing. Right now. As I write this, with shaking fingers. Even more. And yet - everyone will write about it. Hopefully this can make him understandable. Do not hate him. Do not fear him. Know him, and think: Are these your thoughts? Do you understand? Would you applaud these thoughts before you knew they drove a man to kill children?

To me, these actions stand as the purest evil thinkable. Executing eighty youths, gathered like fish in a barrel, on an island. They were unarmed, they were young, they were an ocean of human potential. A political gathering. What could have been our future prime minister may have died today. She may be dying now.

I do not know what to think anymore. But: He wanted to save the world from the muslim threat. He was afraid. Fear, fear, sickening fear permeates his writing. It is clever. He is well-read. It has all the good, rational ways of explaining a point of view. He is afraid. Nothing in his writing says it clearly. His fellow right-winger bloggers are as shocked as I am. But I never shared any of his horrible fears. I never shared any of his views. I always felt an unexplainable disgust at the flawless reasoning of my Frp friends. And now, his line of thinking led him to this. He chose to sacrifice a few human lives in Norway to save the world from something he sees as a huge, religiously fanatic threat. And when he started doing it, he was so convinced that the screaming, the pain of human beings, could not make him budge in his decision.

Do you understand his thoughts? Would you feel comfortable inside this man's mindscape? Why? What is it that it gives you? I do not want to judge. I have always loved my Frp friends. I will not delete them from facebook, even when they used the first bomb to say "Get out of my fucking country, you fucking fucks" or "time to check out the "against islamization of Norway" website". I believe that we all need friends with different worldviews.

And I have always been a bit embarrassed by the fact that I am by nature ridiculously politically correct. I do believe in non-violence. I do believe that NOT sending the famous Mullah Krekar out of Norway, because he could be executed in his homeland, is a strong signal to send to the world. Both to the east and the west. "Okay, you guys may still want to execute prisoners, but then we'll let him walk freely around in Oslo, because WE happen to believe in something called the sanctity of ALL human life, even the life of this guy who is an obvious terrorist fundamentalist." I am endlessly proud of my tiny country, who has the guts to appear "soft" and "kind" even when the rest of the world pressures us to be "hard".

And I am proud of the fact that we arrested this murderer alive. How would that have played out in USA? Even in this situation, norwegian police was able to catch him alive. It is horrible to have to talk about this. If a sniper bullet could have saved a single life more, of course that would have been immensely much better. But somehow, he was stopped without being killed, and if that happened without risking any more childen's lives, yes, that is a good thing.

My bodily reaction was a sudden wish to have him torn apart by horses. But that is my feelings. Fear. Rage. Disgust. This rage for vengeance is not what makes us human. It is the victory of abstract thought, of faith, that makes us human. The faith that any human can be something different tomorrow than they are today. To him, maybe killing children gave him a physical reaction. For his own sake, I hope he is a complete psychopath, if such a thing exists. If he really did this just to bring attention to his thoughts, and he will now have to face it like a human being ...

If he really cannot feel this, he is colder than anything I have ever known in any work of fiction. Our imaginations have been outreached. But if he WAS able to feel this, and yet persisted, systematicaly killing eighty young people for the sake of drawing attention to his cause, feeling their pain in his mirror neurons, but persisting to tell the world that muslims, muslims are scary ... if this is possible. If faith in one's own justification and perfection can be so over-riding, so much stronger than the sight of another human in pain, even "cold" cannot describe what he is.

This man will be locked up. After 21 years, he will be examined by psychiatrists. They will decide wether he is well enough to get out. But: I can assure all you justice-hungry people out there, it will be decided that Anders Behring is highly intelligent, calculating, and at best, a psychopath. And that he cannot be let out. This is how our "gentleness" works. We give our prisoners hope forever, while locking them away forever. Because we say that maybe ... maybe. If you become a better person. If you don't fight the guards. If you behave nicely. And we mean it.

And it saves us money and makes us look good, and the prisoners are locked away forever, but without going mad and becoming a liability.

In Frank Millers "The Dark Knight", the Joker gets out by pretending he is all fine, and starts a killing spree. So is this "norwegian" way wrong? No. It is this naive trust in people, this faith, that makes Norway a country that even islamic fundamentalists have kept their hands away from so far. I believe that it is impossible to say that a country is "the great satan" if it executes no-one, if it tortures no-one, if its politicians silently, and secularly, say "what would Jesus do?" before they make their decisions. We are all a bunch of atheists up here. But we have faith in democracy. And in humanity. On a day like this, nothing is more impressive, more steadfast, more Jesus-like, than maintaining one's faith in Humanity. And yes, this is what a huge amount of my 913 facebookfriends did. Okay, they're mostly cultural elite people, they direct theater and make movies and write books, and maybe not so many from the right wing, but it really, really felt good to see their maturity. I like my friends. I even like myself today, as my politcal views were clearer to me than in a long time, and as every absurd prejudice I had about freemason-conservative-right-wing-monsters from the rich, blonde upper class became grotesquely true, as if life had turned into a Stieg Larsson novel.

Basically: Coupled with healthy realism and a solid police force the faith in humanity is a valuable thing in itself. It says: Our justice system believes blindly in justice. We will not kill, because killing is wrong.

I know I sound awfully politically correct, as i am relentlessly soft, multi-cultural and left-wing.

But after today, as the worst human being in Europe is hard, mono-cultural and right-wing, it will be very, very, very hard to tease anyone for being too "politically correct".

Just saw this post today, it's hard to know where to begin to respond to it, but after reading, it demands some kind of response. It speaks volumes about the Norwegian character that Breivik was taken alive, and details of his activity haven't been covered up or discounted. (I had no idea you were Norwegian, btw) Trying to understand Brievik's motivation is a brave step to take, when the common response is one of baying for his blood. This post is the most honest and objective piece I've seen re: Brievik, including everything I've read in the press, or on the net. I can't imagine how an otherwise intelligent man could ever believe what he did to be right. Maybe in a few years time, we will understand the psychopathy involved, but I'm not holding my breath. But props for this post (I only saw it when someone else brought it to my attention) I think People need to see what useful introspection looks like...and how to go about it, and this post is a shining example.

So now he's 'sane' again.

QuoteNorway massacre suspect Anders Behring Breivik is 'not insane'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/10/norway-massacre-suspect-not-insane (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/10/norway-massacre-suspect-not-insane)

Anders Behring Breivik, the Norwegian extremist who has confessed to killing 77 people in a bomb and shooting rampage, is not criminally insane, according to a psychiatric assessment issued on Tuesday which contradicts an earlier assessment.

The conclusion comes six days before Breivik is scheduled to go on trial on terror charges for the massacre on 22 July 2011. Though not definitive, it suggests he could serve the maximum penalty of 21 years in prison rather than being detained indefinitely in a secure psychiatric institution.

Watching Breivik's trial thus far, he's definitely not a schizoprenic.

If anything, he comes across as a psychopath.

It's also interesting to note how the media are treating his trial differently to how they would treat, say, an Islamic terrorist.  The constant poring over his every statement stands in stark contrast to the lack of coverage (apart from denunciations by vapid media airheads wanting to look "tough on terrorism") those sort of trials get.

Also been following the UK blogger "Lionheart", who some thought was Breivik's UK mentor, before he and the Norwegian police (and common sense) ruled it out.

He seems convinced he is the victim of some kind of international conspiracy, that his anti-Islamic sentiments and movement he was building (he was a founder of the EDL, until an internal coup removed him from the organisation) were so threatening to the Powers That Be, that he was stitched up as part of the bombing due to a sinister plot to take him down, and that his former comrades in the EDL, and possibly government officials, are involved.

So far so tinfoil-y.  Nevertheless, in his quest to prove this, he has been reproducing reams of material on Alan Lake, the leaders of the EDL and their financial backers.  Very interesting stuff.

I'm still on the fence about the network supposedly backing Breivik.  There are a lot of Knights Templar revivalists.  There are lots of people who dislike Muslims.  Sometimes there is crossover between the two, and if it would be anywhere in the world, it would probably be in London.  Some of Breivik's more outlandish claims have since been verified, but some have not.

Although if it doesn't exist, Breivik has now planted the idea in the heads of the more violent fringes of the Counter-Jihadist movement.  Just like the Rosicrucians didn't originally exist, until the books spurred on the creation of secret societies based on them.

I wouldn't be surprised to see in 10 years time a worrying proliferation in Templar-themed groups with a violent bent, selling copies of Europe: 2089.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2013/02/13/world/europe/ap-eu-norway-parliament-threat.html?smid=tw-share
(http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2013/02/13/world/europe/ap-eu-norway-parliament-threat.html?smid=tw-share)
A member of the Norwegian Defence League has been arrested for threatening to bomb the Norwegian parliament.

The X Defence Leagues are becoming increasingly violent, all over the place.  Doesn't bode well...

Despite the Norwegian police intelligence services' (PST) claim that not even the DDR could have stopped the July 22nd attacks, I'm starting to think we could have, if only PST weren't completely useless.

For the last ten years, they've been using young James Bond-obsessed narcissists as informers. Example: Christian Høibø (also child porn convict and at one point reality TV star). In 2002 he gave the police a lead about a supposed secret radical leftist arms cache. It turned out to be false, but they enlisted him as a source anyway. First, he infiltrated the quite harmless Trotskyist group International Socialists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Socialists_%28Norway%29), and then the anarchist/communist/miscellaneous lefty Blitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitz_%28movement%29) squat/autonomous community, where he actively encouraged violent behaviour and at at least one point got arrested by police for stone-throwing and violence against cops. And then, he joined Norway's resident Maoist sect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serve_the_People_%28Norway%29) (and the anti-racist organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOS_Rasisme) they've taken control over) in infiltrating the islamophobofascist Norwegian Defence League. Allegedly he almost single-handedly turned it from a Facebook group to an actual, somewhat well-functioning organization. He also recruited young football hooligans into NDL. All this around the time when Breivik was involved in the organization. So this guy has been building up, recruiting to and inciting to violence in extremist organizations on both the left and the right, while reporting (often falsely, or exaggeratedly) to the Police Security Service. All to live out his inner secret agent fantasies.

Next to all terrorist attacks in Norway since WWII have been committed by right-wing extremists. Still, the police intelligence services have this weird fixation with left-wingers. Their official threat assessment report for 2013 even suggests that left-wingers may turn to violence to protest Norway's immigration policies (the government is trying to deport a bunch of well-integrated second-generation immigrant kids along with their parents because they lied or did the paperwork wrong, and that's enraging some) and dedicates more space in the report to discussing that than the possibility of another attack similar to Utøya. And it still considers Islamic fundamentalism the biggest security threat to Norwegian society today.

Of course, there is an alternate explanation....that he was doing exactly what the PST wanted or expected him to do.

Unstable personalities like this turn up far too frequently in the history of undercover agents and police informants.  It also gives the security forces, with their generally conservative bias, an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway...keep the leftists down (but potentially threatening enough to keep an eye on) and the fascists on a short leash.