Principia Discordia

These London riots are fairly impressive.

Tottenham, Lewisham, Hackney, Brixton and Putney are all on fire right now.  200+ arrests.  Theresa May reduced to blubbering about "criminality".  Barricades going up, buses and police cars being set on fire.

Maybe if the police didn't go around shooting people for completely random reasons all the time, and everyone had jobs, people would be less inclined to riot?  Just a thought.

Quote from: Cain on August 08, 2011, 07:13:11 PM
These London riots are fairly impressive.

Tottenham, Lewisham, Hackney, Brixton and Putney are all on fire right now.  200+ arrests.  Theresa May reduced to blubbering about "criminality".  Barricades going up, buses and police cars being set on fire.

Maybe if the police didn't go around shooting people for completely random reasons all the time, and everyone had jobs, people would be less inclined to riot?  Just a thought.

Don't be silly.  The shooting was just "an excuse to commit crimes", according to one of your head peelers.

Probably one of them that is on the payroll of News of the World.

Hey...maybe if so many coppers weren't investigating other coppers for being as bent as hell, they'd have the manpower to police effectively! :lol:

Croydon now, too.  Furniture store set on fire, looking fairly intense, as fires go.  Edit: reports of violence from Birmingham now, as well.

Edit 2: Clapham also.

How did the english manage to avoid the backbone-ectomy that's been done here in the US?

A lot of this seems like opportunism - because police had to be drawn in from other parts of London to deal with Tottenham, people took advantage to start looting.  Now they're drawing in police from outside of London and - surprise! - disturbances are happening elsewhere.  It's whack-a-mole, with barricades and burnt down shops.

Free teevees. Hope crushed. :x

Well, it's an element.  Apparently there is a lot of frustration concerning lack of jobs boiling over, as well.

It won't end well. But it beats drinking yourself into cirrhosis and saying "It's just the way it is." That's what I see people doing here.

and the 2012 olympic backlash has started:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/08/london-violence-olympics-security-_n_921392.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/08/london-violence-olympics-security-_n_921392.html)

QuoteLONDON -- Less than a year before London hosts the 2012 Games, scenes of rioting and looting a few miles from the main Olympic site have raised concerns about security and policing for the event.

Images of buildings and vehicles in flames broadcast around the world are also poor publicity for the capital as it prepares to stage the games for a third time.

The unrest, which started Saturday night in the Tottenham area of north London after a police shooting, spread closer to the Olympic complex Monday when scattered violence broke out in the Hackney area of east London.

Hackney is one of five boroughs encompassing the Olympic Park, a square mile site that will be the centerpiece of the games, which start on July 27, 2012.

Fucking Olympics.  What a colossal waste of time & resources.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 09, 2011, 03:45:29 AM
Fucking Olympics.  What a colossal waste of time & resources.

From a strictly tourism standpoint, the games bring in a shitton of  money.

From a housing/rental standpoint, prices are driven up stupidly fucking high for the year+ before the games occur.

Wouldn't call it a colossal waste of resources, but it is a half decade long pain in the ass for the hosting city.

Vancouver/Canada in general in 2010:
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20110228005482/en/Visa-Data-Shows-10-Percent-Increase-Canada (http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20110228005482/en/Visa-Data-Shows-10-Percent-Increase-Canada)

QuoteAccording to the 2011 Tourism Outlook: Canada report, spending by international travelers on their Visa cards within Canada during 2010 increased 10 percent from 2009, with the largest increase from U.S. travelers, who spent $3.5 billion within the country. In fact, spending by travelers from the U.S. represented 55 percent of all spending on Visa cards by international travelers in Canada during 2010.

Travelers from the United Kingdom ($359 million), France ($316 million), China ($229 million) and Australia ($167 million) were the next highest spenders within Canada during 2010, while the biggest year-over-year increases in spending came from travelers from India (65%), Brazil (50%), Russia (41%), Sweden (27%) and China (26%).

The Impact of the Summer Olympics on its Host City: The Costs Outweigh the Tangible Benefits [April, 2009]
http://digitalcommons.bryant.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1004&context=honors_history&sei-redir=1

ABSTRACT
In the eyes of a host city, the reason to host the Summer Olympic Games has evolved from
shining glory on athletic feats to receiving the perceived benefits from the opportunity. In the
current times, there are a record number of Olympic events generating a demand for the
construction of a larger amount of Games facilities than ever before. However, nations still
vie for the winning bid to host the Olympics in one of their cities. This paper seeks to show
that the costs of hosting the Games outweigh its tangible benefits. In detail, it will look at the
financial, political, and social costs and benefits of hosting the Olympics and examine how
they impact the host city. Then the perceived benefits of hosting the London Olympics will be
examined. Specifically, this paper will show that the costs of hosting the London Olympics
outweigh its tangible benefits, especially in times where the world is in a global recession.

CONCLUSION
After this intense literary review, the overall conclusion is that there are many setbacks to
hosting the Olympics and it seems clear that the actual costs of hosting the Olympics far
outweigh its perceived tangible benefits. Although, it is difficult to trace whether the
Olympics have actually been intangibly beneficial, the opportunity costs of hosting the
Olympics often fail to be accounted for. Furthermore, the other opportunities (ex. Social
programs, healthcare, etc.) would potentially have offered the same or better intangible
benefits as well as tangible ones (financial, social, and/or political).
With an understanding of this conclusion, one would question why the cities continue to host
the Olympics. Arriving at an answer to the question is rather simple; the benefiters of the
Olympics are doing an excellent job covering up the fallacies in the perceived benefits of
hosting the Olympics. As alluded to multiple times already, the parties who bid to host the
Olympics are receiving the majority of the benefits, but not absorbing the brunt of the costs.
These parties, who are generally skilled politicians and businessmen, "sugar coat" the costs to
the taxpaying community, who in turn allow the hosting of the Olympics to continue. Until
the taxpayers and local citizens rise up and take action, cities will continue to host the Games.

The Olympics provide community benefits like local volunteerism, youth education
programs, and funding for community developments and cultural programs. However, if this
were the sole reason that the Olympics were produced, then the government could avoid
hosting the Olympics and rather provide these benefits while spending a great deal less in
taxpayer funds.

back to topic:

(http://i.imgur.com/0VFZB.jpg)

Holy fuck.


Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14446548 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14446548)


Edit: added source.

What the hell?

See this is what happens if you don't let your people have guns. They burn down buildings.

Quote from: Telarus on August 09, 2011, 05:40:46 AM
The Impact of the Summer Olympics on its Host City: The Costs Outweigh the Tangible Benefits [April, 2009]
http://digitalcommons.bryant.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1004&context=honors_history&sei-redir=1

ABSTRACT
In the eyes of a host city, the reason to host the Summer Olympic Games has evolved from
shining glory on athletic feats to receiving the perceived benefits from the opportunity. In the
current times, there are a record number of Olympic events generating a demand for the
construction of a larger amount of Games facilities than ever before. However, nations still
vie for the winning bid to host the Olympics in one of their cities. This paper seeks to show
that the costs of hosting the Games outweigh its tangible benefits. In detail, it will look at the
financial, political, and social costs and benefits of hosting the Olympics and examine how
they impact the host city. Then the perceived benefits of hosting the London Olympics will be
examined. Specifically, this paper will show that the costs of hosting the London Olympics
outweigh its tangible benefits, especially in times where the world is in a global recession.

CONCLUSION
After this intense literary review, the overall conclusion is that there are many setbacks to
hosting the Olympics and it seems clear that the actual costs of hosting the Olympics far
outweigh its perceived tangible benefits. Although, it is difficult to trace whether the
Olympics have actually been intangibly beneficial, the opportunity costs of hosting the
Olympics often fail to be accounted for. Furthermore, the other opportunities (ex. Social
programs, healthcare, etc.) would potentially have offered the same or better intangible
benefits as well as tangible ones (financial, social, and/or political).
With an understanding of this conclusion, one would question why the cities continue to host
the Olympics. Arriving at an answer to the question is rather simple; the benefiters of the
Olympics are doing an excellent job covering up the fallacies in the perceived benefits of
hosting the Olympics. As alluded to multiple times already, the parties who bid to host the
Olympics are receiving the majority of the benefits, but not absorbing the brunt of the costs.
These parties, who are generally skilled politicians and businessmen, "sugar coat" the costs to
the taxpaying community, who in turn allow the hosting of the Olympics to continue. Until
the taxpayers and local citizens rise up and take action, cities will continue to host the Games.

The Olympics provide community benefits like local volunteerism, youth education
programs, and funding for community developments and cultural programs. However, if this
were the sole reason that the Olympics were produced, then the government could avoid
hosting the Olympics and rather provide these benefits while spending a great deal less in
taxpayer funds.

tl;dr My senior capstone is going to iterate why the government is pissing away money and thus i'll refuse to show any positive impact it may actually have on citizens & local business.

Quote from: Da6s on August 09, 2011, 06:11:41 AM
back to topic:

(http://i.imgur.com/0VFZB.jpg)

Holy fuck.


Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14446548 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14446548)


Edit: added source.

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/54485000/jpg/_54485497_burnoutrtrs624.jpg)

(http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg737/scaled.php?tn=0&server=737&filename=1z5sn.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640)

Shitty image is shitty, but it's the only one i've been able to find of the Sony Distribution Center that's burnt to the ground this evening.


I would say this conveys my feelings toward Sony in one image.

Well, my hatred probably burns a lot hotter, and the flames have demons in their midst.

(http://i.imgur.com/lfcUz.jpg)

 :lol:

I've been trying to find raw amateur footage but there isn't much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4pcbiO4flY

What I find interesting are the people saying they knew the guy who got shot by police, and he was a really nice bloke. Youth workers and so on, claiming that he wasn't a drug dealer at all. More and more rumors flying around that this is another Menezes shooting but without even the accusation of terrorism to back it up.

Of course, the copycat riots likely have more to do with the lack of jobs, general anger, and opportunity... but the limp-wristed response from the police is brilliant. Consistently saying it isn't a racial thing, whilst the (original) rioters and local community shout that it very much IS a racial thing... but hey!

Quote from: Met Statement"If anyone feels they have been unfairly treated by police, they are entitled to make a complaint at a police station or online at www.met.police.uk."

I'm sure that's a great comfort to Mark Duggan's family!

I also love this quote from the main BBC page:

Quote from: Hackney Resident"We spoke to looters trying to get home, the only explanation they gave for their behaviour was that they had no money today.

'Excuse me, excuse me Mr. Looter, could you please kindly explain why you are smashing that florist? Hmm?'

:lulz:

Yeah, to be honest, my default position of the police when they use lethal force is skepticism anyway, based on past events (shooting a guy carrying a chair leg home, shooting a guy while in bed with his girlfriend, shooting a guy while walking calmly towards a train, giving a guy a heart attack and killing him for walking too close to a protest etc etc), but in this case it seems especially justified.  They claimed to have a number of SO19 officers surrounding him, so obviously he would step out of the car waving a pistol around.  Yeah, that makes perfect sense for a non-drug dealing kid who was widely respected in his community.

Also, the fact we recently discovered tons of police are on the take from the incredibly conservative News of the World, aiding a capital C Conservative political agenda, does nothing to endear them to the ethnic minorities of London.

its kicking off all over the country now. Birmingham, Bristol, Leeds, there are rumours that it will kick off in Southampton and the cops are on standby.

Swote.  Finally looks like we got our "summer of discontent".  Only a year late.  Damn, just checked the BBC.  Bristol, Liverpool and Nottingham as well.

Wait, there was violence in Wembley?  What the fuck?  Did the strawberries and cream get held up somewhere in Croydon?  And Ealing as well?  Shit is serious if its moving into west London.

Manchester seems surprisingly quiet.  I mean, there was some violence there too, but I would've expected that to be the third big flare-up after Birmingham.

Diane Abbott is asking for a London wide curfew to be considered.

Bets on how long before Melanie Phillips declares this a "Muslim uprising" like in Paris 2006?  I say another two days, max.

Was speaking to my Mum about it and we are of the opinion that it's like the 80's riots all over again.

It also occurs to me we've heard nothing about violence in Glasgow (not an Old Firm match anytime soon, to be fair), Edinburgh or Cardiff.

It couldn't possibly be linked to their local governments doing more to try and stimulate employment and provide for the unemployed, could it?

Quote from: Cain on August 09, 2011, 11:35:19 AM
Swote.  Finally looks like we got our "summer of discontent".  Only a year late.  Damn, just checked the BBC.  Bristol, Liverpool and Nottingham as well.

Great, that means I have to call dad and make sure he's ok.  :|

Most of the violence was in Toxteth, if that helps?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-14453303

Quote from: Cain on August 09, 2011, 12:37:58 PM
Most of the violence was in Toxteth, if that helps?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-14453303

I've only been back in contact with him for a couple of months, so I'm not exactly sure where in Liverpool he is. But he does have cousins in Bootle, so I imagine he's not far from there. Probably good to check up on him either way.

You know how little news coverage the riots are getting in the states? New York times made it the front page, but most sources are giving it little more than a nod. You might see "riots continue in london" fly through the ticker at the bottom of the screen, but so far there hasn't been a lot of news about it.

heard Cameron on the radio this morning putting on his Serious Daddy voice. Saying that police justice will be swift for the people that have caused this chaos. And that those of you old enough to go to jail will be punished. 


:horrormirth:
it really makes you laugh or cry

Quote from: Cramulus on August 09, 2011, 02:43:34 PM
You know how little news coverage the riots are getting in the states? New York times made it the front page, but most sources are giving it little more than a nod. You might see "riots continue in london" fly through the ticker at the bottom of the screen, but so far there hasn't been a lot of news about it.

heard Cameron on the radio this morning putting on his Serious Daddy voice. Saying that police justice will be swift for the people that have caused this chaos. And that those of you old enough to go to jail will be punished. 


:horrormirth:
it really makes you laugh or cry

I've even heard the riots described as "race riots".   :?

Heh.  Most of the rioters are not white, it is true, and there is an undertone of racism to the police's actions, which sparked off the original protest in Tottenham...but it's a real stretch to call it a "race riot".  We had actual race riots in 2000, so most of us over here know the difference.

Quote from: Cain on August 09, 2011, 02:52:20 PM
Heh.  Most of the rioters are not white, it is true, and there is an undertone of racism to the police's actions, which sparked off the original protest in Tottenham...but it's a real stretch to call it a "race riot".  We had actual race riots in 2000, so most of us over here know the difference.

Well, you have to remember that a sizeable minority of Americans really miss Lester Maddox, and one Black dude on the TV looting = "racial uprising by Blacks!", even if he's beside 3 White people doing it.

You may recall, back during Katrina, that White people were photographed "finding food", and Blacks "looting".

We are still an extremely racist nation in many ways.

the first page of my google results for "London Riots"

1. "How BlackBerry helped spread London riots" - see also: how Doom, Marlyn Manson, and black clothing caused the Columbine slayings

2. a gallery of photos from the riots - boston.com

3. riots continue - yahoo news. this one actually qualifies as news. We even get a little tidbit of the real story: "politicians and police blamed on criminal thugs but residents attributed to local tensions and anger over hardship."

4. a yahoo news page documenting the number of arrests. This one also frames the riots as something which might spoil the London Olympics. Oh no that would be awful! Also refers to the subsequent riots as "copycat criminals". Yeahhhh they probably don't have any legitimate reasons to be angry, they're just all monkey-see monkey-do.

5. A "Your Reaction" page at bbc (not news, commentary)

6. a BBC news page about all the damage the riots have done. Describes them as a product of 'Greed and criminality', and implicates social media networks like twitter.

7. another BBC article, 2 days old, more of the same

8. an article from the guardian

9. a youtube link

10. a wikipedia link


Why aren't the other media outlets covering this? If I search for any contemporary other news topic, the top results are CNN, NY Times, Fox News, CBS news...

Yeah.  To be honest, we're not much better.  As I mentioned before, I have money on when the screeching harpy/satirist's sockpuppet Melanie Phillips will declare this a Muslim uprising, and I'm not even going to look at the Daily Mail or Express for the next few days, as they're almost certainly playing up that angle as well.

here's some thoughts from Ioz:

A Riot of My Own (http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/2011/08/riot-of-my-own.html)

Man, it's too bad that Mark Duggan wasn't Iranian; all the same assholes who are like, "Oh, the rioting, Oh, the looting, Oh, the humanity!" would be making room for another green ribbon between their LiveStrong bracelet and Kabala string. I was in fact just chatting with a liberalische acquaintance the other day, the sort of gal who hates Bush and is sorely disappointed in Obama, and she said, in regard to the ongoing Syrian uphevals, the kids in Greece and Spain, the Israelis, etc. etc., that it was really a shame that Americans no longer protested: too fat, lazy, apolitical, and so on to take to the streets. "Girl wut?" I sez. Americans still take to the streets when injustice is done. They just happen to be black most of the time, and your nice liberal show of solidarity is to lock the doors in your distant enclave lest the niggers come for your TV too. If his name had been El-Rodney Al-King and he'd gotten the beat-down in some market square in East Whutupistan, you'd be poring over headlines about Violent protests in response to brutal crackdowns by state security forces. But, anyway, as for the current sitcheeyayshun: somehow I doubt that we're going to hear too much about the poor youth of London demanding a better life after years of economic stagnation and political neglect.



Honeypie You're Not Safe Here (http://whoisioz.blogspot.com/2011/08/honeypie-youre-not-safe-here.html)

So you have an entire so-called economy based on theft and expropriation; basically your life must be either precarious true poverty or the illusory security of some or other sort of debt-peonage, which is the foundational theft and expropriation upon which all the profits of finance rest; literally, like, uh, basically, um, half the world is enslaved to the immense extortionist enterprises of state capital--the other half is covered in a three-inch Congo-delta oil slick and is a skein of extraction points. And what really worries you is that some London homebro is stealing some trainers from the Foot Locker? Oh, you worry, how can these people ever expect social change and the advancement of their lot if they don't respect the law. Yo, mah nigs: how can they ever expect it if they do?

Quote from: Cramulus on August 09, 2011, 02:57:23 PMWhy aren't the other media outlets covering this? If I search for any contemporary other news topic, the top results are CNN, NY Times, Fox News, CBS news...

just paging forward to make sure I'm not just seeing BBC because it's a UK current event... Are there any big name news outlets covering this shit?

Page 2: CBS news, LA Times, Fox News. The fox news headline is "Police Officers Hospitalized"

Page 3: reuters, financial times, huffington post

Page 4: NPR, daily mail, MSNBC

Page 5: Al Jazeera


Seriously, why isn't this bigger news? Is everybody waiting to see how it develops before they report on it? Or are they trying to minimize the domino effect?



My roommates and I found ourselves asking "Could this happen here?"

at first we were like "Nah"

but then we were like, "If it could happen in London..."

then we realized how many unemployed people we know who would be overjoyed at the opportunity to break some glass and flip over a car or two.

I think it's also the media are having a hard time finding a narrative for this, yet.

Quote from: Cramulus on August 09, 2011, 02:43:34 PM
You know how little news coverage the riots are getting in the states? New York times made it the front page, but most sources are giving it little more than a nod. You might see "riots continue in london" fly through the ticker at the bottom of the screen, but so far there hasn't been a lot of news about it.

heard Cameron on the radio this morning putting on his Serious Daddy voice. Saying that police justice will be swift for the people that have caused this chaos. And that those of you old enough to go to jail will be punished. 


:horrormirth:
it really makes you laugh or cry

The police that shot that young man?

[/naivete]

its mostly just looting. glad I am going on holiday on Saturday.

Damn. That looks like a lot of pissed off.

So what's the likelihood that this will be used as an excuse to become considerably more repressive?

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on August 09, 2011, 03:25:59 PM
So what's the likelihood that this will be used as an excuse to become considerably more repressive?

Looking for more wanking material, are you?

We're already the capitalist bizarro twin of East Germany, I don't think we can honestly get more oppressive (or even afford to try).

apparently nobody loots for books:

http://www.thebookseller.com/news/bookshops-avoid-major-damage-london-rioting.html

http://newsthump.com/2011/08/09/islington-residents-release-guidelines-for-ethical-rioting/

Quote from: Pixie on August 09, 2011, 03:42:09 PM
http://newsthump.com/2011/08/09/islington-residents-release-guidelines-for-ethical-rioting/

:lulz: I was so flabbergasted until I realized it was satire

heh.

Via the otherwise quite easy-to-mock Penny Laurie (http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08/panic-on-streets-of-london.html):

QuoteIn one NBC report, a young man in Tottenham was asked if rioting really achieved anything:

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"

"Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

Also, the most unintentionally hilarious article of the week

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/07/nick-cohen-recession-misery

QuoteNo riots here. Just quiet, ever-deeper misery

[...]

'When will there be riots?" eager journalists ask thinktanks, sociologists and anyone else who monitors Britain's unravelling social fabric. "When are the British going to imitate the Greeks and the Spanish and snap?"

On the face of it, their questions are reasonable. Contrary to the predictions of nearly every expert, inflation roared ahead of wage increases after the crash of 2008, squeezing the living standards of all but the most fortunate harder than at any time since the 1920s. The asinine George Osborne tightened the vice further by raising VAT in the middle of an outbreak of stagflation. Meanwhile his coalition's austerity programme is ensuring that public services will begin a long slow decline into shabby inefficiency, as public-sector workers start to lose their jobs en masse. Working- and middle-class families have already lost tax credits. The poor have already lost benefits.

About the only reason to be cheerful is that low interest rates help those with debts, which would otherwise be unsustainable. But by holding rates down, the Bank of England is effectively taking money from savers on modest incomes to spare debtors from default. Whatever the interest rate it sets, the half-shattered banks are reluctant to lend to business and homebuyers. They will become more reluctant as the unravelling of the eurozone kills the faint hopes of a recovery in Britain, and leaves the banks to deal with the consequences of yet more of their disastrous decisions as they write off yet more bad debts.

To cap it all, the distribution of the pain is so monumentally unjust it cries to high heaven for a reaction. The banking crisis and the flooding of the market with easy credit were the City's follies. But it is not London and the south-east which are suffering but the Britain north and west of the line from Severn to the Wash. While the state bailed out the City so the bars could carry on heaving and the banks could carry on delivering fantastic rewards to their "stars", it has allowed the provinces to sink. So complete has been the capture of the coalition by the moneyed interest that Osborne says in all seriousness that the one fiscal measure he simply must have at any price is not the relief of poverty or an easing of the burden on middle England, but a tax cut for the wealthiest 1% of earners.

These arrant insults ought to push the most mild-mannered people into revolt. Yet in Britain they provoke only students to riot. The wider public remains resigned rather than enraged; indifferent rather than incandescent.

"Things got out of hand and we'd had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets." – David Cameron, Bullingdon Club – Christ Church College, Oxford, 1986.

Quote from: Cain on August 09, 2011, 05:31:23 PM
"Things got out of hand and we'd had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets." – David Cameron, Bullingdon Club – Christ Church College, Oxford, 1986.

So what the hell happened to him?  He had promise.

I think it was more of a sociopathic "I can do anything I like because my daddy is rich and a baronet" thing, to be honest.

Also

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/07/tottenham-riots-police-duggan-live

Quote"Initial ballistics tests on the bullet that lodged in a police officer's radio when Mark Duggan died on Thursday night show it was a police issue bullet..."

Police also started the riot in Tottenham when they attacked an unarmed 16 year old girl attempting to cross police lines.

(http://i.imgur.com/sFfem.jpg)

Well, the British right know who to blame.  Richard Seymour has broken it down for us:

QuoteBestiary: The people who did this are "animals", exhibiting a "pack mentality". (Cf, "plague of locusts") They should be "put down".

Mindless: These people have no issues. They're not protesting. It's just mindless violence for the sake of mindless violence. They should be shot.

Opportunists: These people are social lurkers, awaiting the opportunity for a bit of mayhem and looting. It's just "needless opportunistic theft and violence" (dixit the tea boy). They should be sent back.

Leftists: The rioters are leftists, and clearly express the criminal urges of the left. They are like UK Uncut. They should have their benefits taken away.

Violence: There is no excuse for violence. Unless it's police violence (which is 'mindful' violence). Bring back the water cannon, the rubber bullets, and internment. They should be sent to Afghanistan.

Multiculturalism: These rioters are black and Jewish. Multiculturalism has failed. This isn't Basra or Baghdad. This is Tottenham, South London [sic]. This is Enfield, Wood Green, Hackney, Brixton, Lewisham, New Cross, Waltham Cross, Croydon, East Ham, Islington, Peckham and now Birmingham. These people should be forcibly integrated, then sent back.

Quote from: Cain on August 09, 2011, 05:50:53 PM
Well, the British right know who to blame.  Richard Seymour has broken it down for us:

QuoteBestiary: The people who did this are "animals", exhibiting a "pack mentality". (Cf, "plague of locusts") They should be "put down".

Mindless: These people have no issues. They're not protesting. It's just mindless violence for the sake of mindless violence. They should be shot.

Opportunists: These people are social lurkers, awaiting the opportunity for a bit of mayhem and looting. It's just "needless opportunistic theft and violence" (dixit the tea boy). They should be sent back.

Leftists: The rioters are leftists, and clearly express the criminal urges of the left. They are like UK Uncut. They should have their benefits taken away.

Violence: There is no excuse for violence. Unless it's police violence (which is 'mindful' violence). Bring back the water cannon, the rubber bullets, and internment. They should be sent to Afghanistan.

Multiculturalism: These rioters are black and Jewish. Multiculturalism has failed. This isn't Basra or Baghdad. This is Tottenham, South London [sic]. This is Enfield, Wood Green, Hackney, Brixton, Lewisham, New Cross, Waltham Cross, Croydon, East Ham, Islington, Peckham and now Birmingham. These people should be forcibly integrated, then sent back.

Sweet Zombie Fucking Jesus! This man.... he is like unto a god!  :lulz:

Wait.  Someone is claiming that London isn't naturally violent?

My favorite line is "Unless it's police violence..."  :lulz:

Quote from: Doktor Phox on August 09, 2011, 06:05:34 PM
My favorite line is "Unless it's police violence..."  :lulz:

MINDFUL VIOLENCE, you agitator!

You gotta admit "mindful violence" does have a nice zen-like ring to it.

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 09, 2011, 08:38:48 PM
You gotta admit "mindful violence" does have a nice zen-like ring to it.

I am always mindful of my violence.  It's too important to half-ass.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 09, 2011, 06:04:09 PM
Wait.  Someone is claiming that London isn't naturally violent?

THIS.
"BUT...WE HAVEN'T DRAWN AND QUARTERED AND DISPLAYED HEADS ON SPIKES IN YEARS!"  :lulz:

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on August 09, 2011, 09:02:33 PM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 09, 2011, 06:04:09 PM
Wait.  Someone is claiming that London isn't naturally violent?

THIS.
"BUT...WE HAVEN'T DRAWN AND QUARTERED AND DISPLAYED HEADS ON SPIKES IN YEARS!"  :lulz:

THE BARBARIANS! WHY THE FUCK NOT!?  :argh!:

Tell me they at least still do the thing where they throw people in a pit of half-starved wolves. Now THAT is a civilized practice.

Would you say it's a life-changing experience?

Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on August 09, 2011, 09:49:42 PM
Would you say it's a life-changing experience?

Nah, just good, wholesome family entertainment. Think of the children, ECH!

Manchester and Salford are looking a lot more violent tonight, with the city centre not in police control.  In the mid-west, Wolverhampton and West Bromich are seeing violence similar to Birmingham.

Still no violence in Cardiff or any Scottish city.  Coincidence?

Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 09, 2011, 06:04:09 PM
Wait.  Someone is claiming that London isn't naturally violent?

I've never been in fear of violence in London.  Mostly because I'm more scruffy looking and poor than anyone who would want to mug me, but nevertheless...

On the other hand, I did steer well clear of the police, so I probably missed most of the actual instigators of violence in the capital.

Really good BBC interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o&feature=related)

Quote from: Da6s on August 10, 2011, 01:49:55 AM
Really good BBC interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o&feature=related)

Holy fuck, what a protonazi that cunt is.

Quote from: Cain on August 08, 2011, 07:13:11 PM
These London riots are fairly impressive.

Tottenham, Lewisham, Hackney, Brixton and Putney are all on fire right now.  200+ arrests.  Theresa May reduced to blubbering about "criminality".  Barricades going up, buses and police cars being set on fire.

Maybe if the police didn't go around shooting people for completely random reasons all the time, and everyone had jobs, people would be less inclined to riot?  Just a thought.

Change "had jobs" to "weren't wageslaves or considered useless" and I agree with you.

And yeah, that is pretty impressive. Funny how it's a "political demonstration" in the middle east but a "riot" further west.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 09, 2011, 02:50:29 PM

Quote from: Cramulus on August 09, 2011, 02:43:34 PM
You know how little news coverage the riots are getting in the states? New York times made it the front page, but most sources are giving it little more than a nod. You might see "riots continue in london" fly through the ticker at the bottom of the screen, but so far there hasn't been a lot of news about it.

heard Cameron on the radio this morning putting on his Serious Daddy voice. Saying that police justice will be swift for the people that have caused this chaos. And that those of you old enough to go to jail will be punished. 


:horrormirth:
it really makes you laugh or cry

I've even heard the riots described as "race riots".   :?

They tried pulling that bullshit 25 years ago when Toxteth, Brixton and St Paul's went off. Didn't wash well then either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr1Bm5h5B3w&feature=related

Now they're blaming Twitter and You Tube. (Much like they lauded Facebook in Egypt's uprising, and the Arab Spring)
This quote, from that Lily Allen sums it all up, really.
"Are we on the brink of civil war or something? Bring back the cane ??????" Bless her!

(http://i.imgur.com/rNk0V.png) (http://imgur.com/rNk0V)

This cracked me up.

(http://i.imgur.com/fHIqe.png) (http://imgur.com/fHIqe)

"I'll catch you love, honest!"

(http://i.imgur.com/YAoX3.png) (http://imgur.com/YAoX3)

Bus Stop?

(http://i.imgur.com/KwraT.png) (http://imgur.com/KwraT)

Some British traditions are worth keeping.

I feel sorry for the BBC that we didn't get a fourth night of madness in London. They were so looking forward to rubber bullets, poor things.

Also, ROBUST ROBUST ROBUST ROBUST COPYCAT MINDLESS ARMY COPYCAT RUBBER-BULLETS YOUTHS ROBUST

  :roll:  In a hilarious moment of pure opportunistic "Get your licks in while you can", Iran have called for the British Police to "Excercise restraint when dealing with those protesting"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/global-riot-reaction-safety-fears-from-europe-satisfaction-from-iran-2335071.html

Quote from: BadBeast on August 10, 2011, 09:26:21 AM
  :roll:  In a hilarious moment of pure opportunistic "Get your licks in while you can", Iran have called for the British Police to "Excercise restraint when dealing with those protesting"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/global-riot-reaction-safety-fears-from-europe-satisfaction-from-iran-2335071.html

oh WOW :lulz:

if it weren't Iran, I'd give them mittens for that

They deserve a single mitten, I think, for comic timing.

So London was pretty quiet last night, then?  Not that it matters now, the rest of the country seems to have caught on.

QuoteCanning Circus police station in central Nottingham was firebombed by a male gang on Tuesday evening. Nottinghamshire Police said 90 people had been arrested

In Liverpool, Merseyside Police have arrested 50 people in relation to disorder in the city

Nine people have been arrested in Gloucester after police officers came under attack from youths throwing stones and bottles from 23:00 BST

In Leicester, a group of up to 100 youths attacked shops and threw items at police, with 13 arrests

In Bristol, police arrested 19 people following a second night of trouble

Thames Valley Police made 15 arrests linked to trouble overnight

Metropolitan Police have arrested 768 people and charged 105 in connection with the violence in the capital, including a 21-year-old man who was arrested on suspicion of arson with intent to endanger life following a fire which took hold of the Reeves Furniture store in Croydon on Monday night

Officers from all eight Scottish Police forces are being sent to help colleagues in the Midlands and North of England deal with rioting and looting

A 26-year-old man found shot in a car in Croydon, amid rioting in the south London town, has died in hospital

Government minister Michael Gove has praised the Met's response to the riots, saying bringing in an extra 10,000 officers helped to prevent further riots from taking place in London

Meanwhile, two 18-year-olds in Folkestone, Kent, and a 19-year-old woman in Wakefield have been arrested. A 16-year-old boy in Glasgow was charged with breach of the peace while another man, aged 18, has been arrested. All relate to allegations of inciting violence through internet social networking sites

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) said on Tuesday that ballistic tests presented "no evidence" that a handgun found at the scene where Mark Duggan, 29, was killed in Tottenham had been fired at officers

QuoteOne journalist wrote that he was surprised how many people in Tottenham knew of and were critical of the IPCC, but there should be nothing surprising about this. When you look at the figures for deaths in police custody (at least 333 since 1998 and not a single conviction of any police officer for any of them), then the IPCC and the courts are seen by many, quite reasonably, to be protecting the police rather than the people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots?CMP=twt_gu

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2011/08/roger-helmer-shoot-rioters/

(http://i.imgur.com/WS8Du.png)

This is worrying

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/09/london-riots-day-four-live-blog?CMP=twt_gu

QuoteIt was only a minor skirmish, but a potentially bad sign for community relations. Police, who have flooded the streets, were quickly on the scene when about 70 men started chasing local youths.

I wouldn't mention their ethnicity, but it seemed to be relevant. The men were white - in their 30s and 40s - and shouting that they wanted to get the "blacks" and "pakis". Lots of them seemed drunk. One man being held back by police shouted: "They're rats, they mugged my Auntie the other night."

Jay Bradley, 30, a witness, told me: "What happened here? What I just saw - everyone from this area aren't gonna have any looting.
What I saw was a couple of ethnic lads, if you can call them that, black lads, and they chased them away.  A lot of it is alcohol - I don't think the kids were doing anything. They were just on bikes and in masks. But no-one around here is going to stand for any looting. What are we supposed to do. The Co-op is closed and we're running out of food."

Not least because, as Richard Seymour (http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/08/racist-vigilantes-on-loose.html) points out:

QuoteI don't believe that this is just a spontaneous response to looters. When the BNP membership list was leaked, it emerged that there were a number of members scattered around the lower middle class areas, and I wouldn't be surprised if they, along with local EDL supporters, were among those out tonight. The emergence of racist vigilantism is not unique to Enfield. It's also emerged that racist Millwall fans are supposedly 'protecting' Eltham tonight. Apparently, the EDL have been marching through the area. [Update: local residents and Millwall fans both assure me that this is untrue, and that it's just locals protecting themselves. Which, if true, is a relief - but one is still uneasy about vigilantes in football gear posing as defenders of the community.]

[...]

Update: Given that there are lots of unsupported rumours flying about, I think it's important to add a couple of important qualifications to this post. A lot of the rumours going about are originating from the far right themselves - part of their propaganda about being men of action, etc. And some of them could result in people getting hurt. Naturally, I have no wish to contribute to either, so I'm just being cautious. First of all, I have heard conflicting things about the far right being involved in Enfield, but as yet no proof of this has emerged. It may well be just local racists. Guardian journalist Paul Lewis is being careful to say he only witnessed a brief skirmish (though, from the footage I've seen, it was a really nasty, scary event). Second, loads of people have been tweeting me to say it's not the EDL in Eltham. (There is some footage of what appear to be EDL being kettled there, but not the 400-strong mob that the casuals were bragging about). I'm still not okay with vigilantism, but there are degrees of danger. I'm not arguing for complacency. There are some real fascist efforts at stirring. Most of it has been kettled by the cops so far, however. So, I would bear these points in mind when you're scanning social media for updates.

i have had fun reporting racists on facebook.  :lulz:

http://lhote.blogspot.com/2011/08/revolution-is-name-you-give-riots-you.html

QuoteIt's become an instant cliche-- if the protests in London were happening in Iran, everybody's blog would be covered in green ribbons. The question is, why the difference?

Because, dear reader, many of the self-same people who have such considerable solidarity for the Iranians don't see Persians as fully human. The condescension inherent in blogger head-patting of protesting Iranians was apparent from the jump. The source of that condescension was, in part, explained by the simple fact that most first world people find any populist expression of discontent threatening; it gives the lie to our own constant self-aggrandizing narratives of being a free people. Truly free people take to the streets. Those who find succor in playing pretend organize a committee. (And the criticism is apt of me too: I am not in the streets.) In the face of this discomfort, the actual on the ground disagreements between protesters and government are stripped away and reduced to a simplistic struggle between good and evil. Because we live without tyranny, casting the Iranian (or Syrian, etc.) conflict as a mere matter of good people vs. bad tyranny removes the unthinkable implied judgment.

This is simply true: there was more than a little violence involved in the Green Revolution, despite the desperate need among American politicos to argue the contrary. There are socialist elements within the Green Revolution. There is a comfort with religious governance that is quite at odds with American "classical liberal" sentiment. The Green Revolution is not and has never been the perfectly lily-white expression of Enlightenment values that it has been made out to be.

No, guilt ridden white first-world bloggers (of whom, generally speaking, I am a member) love protests in Syria and Iran and elsewhere because they can cast those people, members of an alien culture, race, and religion, as the perfect representations of resistance while totally stripping them of the actual thorny reality of political rage. Theocratic preferences are stripped away; violent behavior (and there was much in the Green Revolution, if you looked beyond the headlines) is ignored; the re-instantiation of sexist Islamic doctrine within the structures of protest movements are conveniently elided. This is the way of all patronizing attitudes from the overclass towards resistance: in order to preserve its romanticized view, it has to occlude the particular grievances and goals that make the protest meaningful in the first place. So the American civil rights movement becomes not a matter of black people undertaking both nonviolent and violent protest against a hideously racist system, animated at times by straightfoward ethnic nationalism, but a whitewashed, toothless prayer meeting where a rainbow coalition destroyed evil with protest songs. So India's righteous rejection of British domination is stripped of the violent religious conflict that attended its entire history.

Support for the Iranian resistance, with some exceptions, was one of those rare moments where people across ideologies came together in the blogosphere. Who could fail to stand with a people rejecting a thuggish and corrupt theocracy? I couldn't. But the realist in me insists that it was a moment of unity precisely because the protests had been stripped of all content. There was no disagreement about the movement because the movement was so taken out of context by condescension and guilt that there was nothing there to disagree about. That writers constantly sought out the elements of the resistance who expressed opinions that were palatable to liberal western audiences was as inevitable as it was distorting.

Does any of this mean that I now don't support the Iranian resistance? Of course not. It means that my support is founded ultimately on the principles of resistance themselves. It means that the beliefs and consequences of that resistance are, on balance, beyond my capacity to fairly judge. And it means that there is always a substantial risk of righteous resistance to oppressive governments becoming itself a vehicle of oppression. We have a very bad habit in this country of supporting the autonomy of oppressed peoples only when geopolitically convenient; that's the classic critique of realism, after all, and a powerful one. Yet I find something similar in the opinions of decent American liberals as they chew over the propriety of various resistance movements; in elevating or denouncing their interpretation of the values of various foreign protest movements, they confer precisely the moral authority of the West that so many of these movements reject. When I have argued about the Libyan revolution, I have tried to argue against American intervention by pointing out all that could go wrong, while not judging the actual content of the Libyan rebels themselves. I'm sure I've failed. And I'm equally sure that my criticisms here aren't lacking in incoherence, condescension, and white guilt.

(I read about that Zapatista movement and I support it. I think harder and think that they don't care about my support. It is a tension I am willing to own.)

Oh, and-- never underestimate the simple fear of angry people, particularly angry black and brown people, in the first world mind. "They're smashing windows and stealing DVD players" is about as direct of a dog whistle as I can imagine. And while Tehran seems a million miles away in the American mind, London might as well be main street. (That's where we took our honeymoon, Francine!) Violent protest in the streets of a major Anglophone city scares people who live in major Anglophone cities. (For contest, you might consider the historical narrative about black American riots in the 1960s, and how they were an unpleasant but inevitable result of a violently racist system, to attitudes towards the London riots.)

In that vein, the typical forces will insist "but Freddie! You can't possibly support this horror!" And I will say to you the same thing I will say to you regarding the Green Revolution: the idea that I am morally equipped to judge the consequences of all of that rage is exactly the paternalism that any protest movement rejects. Do I, in some distant sense, condone smashing windows and burning cars? I do not. Do I think that my moral judgment in that instance has any real valence when it comes to judging the larger motives of the riots in London? I do not. The brutal rape of Lara Logan opened a fissure in the standard, pleasing Western vision of made-for-TV Egyptian resistance. It reminded us that there is no such thing as moral coordination in combat, that there is no such thing as safe upheaval, and that the search for righteousness in violence is a game of willful blindness. That Logan's rape was an inexcusable crime seems obvious to me. What moral lessons about Egyptian revolution I could meaningfully draw from that act, I couldn't tell you.

For that reason, for the reason of the utter collapsing of my own capacity for meaningful judgment within the confines of protests that don't ask for or care for my blessing, I am sympathetic to those who think that they can perfectly judge. The only thing that bothers me is the pretense, here. The pretense that, were this exact behavior to happen in a regime that the United States is unfriendly with, there would be an equally pedantic focus on which windows get smashed and who gets robbed and whether it's fair game to throw at rock at cops-- that's what bothers me. Because it involves a holistic view of both Middle Eastern protests and first world riots that is vastly distorting of both. Because it assumes that financially secure bloggers sitting at computer screens thousands of miles away (like me) can fairly and neutrally judge the anger of distant people enraged by the status quo. Because it suggests that our discrimination is greater than our prejudice. Because it flatters us with its assurance that our opinions are formed by principle and not by signalling.

I don't know what the lesson here is, except to say that when we become enraptured by our own goodness, funneled through the conduit of expressing support for revolution in foreign countries, we should pause, and remind ourselves that this little piece of reflected glory comes with a price.

http://flyingrodent.blogspot.com/2011/08/theres-really-nothing-positive-at-all.html

QuoteI think a lot of commentators are missing just how bad this could turn out to be.  This could prove to be a more or less unstoppable public disorder problem causing major damage and disruption, at a time when we've got a near-enough infinite supply of excitable kids who were regarded as being practically a sub-species by much of the populace before the riots started.  Soon, we'll have a massive public demand for Something To Be Done.

This means crackdowns, and I don't know if anyone else watched Sky and BBC News most of the day, but the calls for martial law started early and got louder as the day went on.  David Cameron doesn't strike me as the Nixon type, but you'd better believe both major parties are crammed to the hoop with authoritarian dinosaurs whose dreams are filled with clunking coppers in space marine armour and weapons catalogues full of shiny guns.

Maybe I'm being alarmist here - it wouldn't be the first time - but if this continues, the way is clear for some seriously Nixonian behaviour here, and when the state takes the gloves off, it's unlikely to be the ringleaders who are on the receiving end of the bare-knuckle boxing.

We're talking about major wedges being shoved between existing political blocs, pushing those who already have some wacky beliefs out to the far edges of wingnuttery, with the resultant arguments and policies you'd expect... In the middle of an economic disaster and huge unemployment.  That would have lots of effects, none of them good, and few if any of the new and shiny ideas about smashing heads are likely to stop the damn rioting - quite the opposite, in fact.

Jesus.  I hope not, but the potential is on here for a political atmosphere that's going to make the Daily Mail in full flow look like an address on forgiveness by Rowan Williams. 

Quote from: ϗ, M.S. on August 10, 2011, 04:49:43 AM

Quote from: Cain on August 08, 2011, 07:13:11 PM
These London riots are fairly impressive.

Tottenham, Lewisham, Hackney, Brixton and Putney are all on fire right now.  200+ arrests.  Theresa May reduced to blubbering about "criminality".  Barricades going up, buses and police cars being set on fire.

Maybe if the police didn't go around shooting people for completely random reasons all the time, and everyone had jobs, people would be less inclined to riot?  Just a thought.

Change "had jobs" to "weren't wageslaves or considered useless" and I agree with you.

And yeah, that is pretty impressive. Funny how it's a "political demonstration" in the middle east but a "riot" further west.

Well, speaking from personal experience, almost any job is better than long-term unemployment.  And these areas of London are those with horrific levels of long-term unemployment. Between that and police violence, people are pretty fucking pissed.

Cameron seems to have cooled his rhetoric somewhat.  He was on the news just now, trying to link the "lack of responsibility" the rioters were displaying to a lack of repsonsibility elsewhere in society.  He didn't say where, and might have just as easily been talking about the welfare state as about, say, banking fucking criminals who sold this country down the river due to their irresponsibility, but it's much further than pretty much any major politician has been willing to go, so far.

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/08/10/guardian-aljazeera-set-straight-corporate-media-lies-london-riots-53711/

Quote from: Pixie on August 10, 2011, 12:16:39 PM
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/08/10/guardian-aljazeera-set-straight-corporate-media-lies-london-riots-53711/

If that is the Al-jazeera article that quotes Richard Seymour, then it's a very good one indeed, and doing the rounds on the blogosphere currently.

Also, I hate the "don't protest or resist, you'll make the government go all 1984" argument. It sounds like LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!!

Quote from: Cain on August 10, 2011, 12:18:31 PM

Quote from: Pixie on August 10, 2011, 12:16:39 PM
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/08/10/guardian-aljazeera-set-straight-corporate-media-lies-london-riots-53711/

If that is the Al-jazeera article that quotes Richard Seymour, then it's a very good one indeed, and doing the rounds on the blogosphere currently.

it is the same.

Quote from: ϗ, M.S. on August 10, 2011, 12:19:00 PM
Also, I hate the "don't protest or resist, you'll make the government go all 1984" argument. It sounds like LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!!

Yeah.  I mean, understand that this is a likely reaction, sure.  I can see that.  But it's the ought/is distinction.  "The government is going to come down on us all like a ton of bricks, therefore we ought not to protest".  HUME REJECTS YOUR LOGIC AND SUBSTITUTES IT WITH HIS OWN!

The government is going to try and come down on everyone like a ton of bricks.  But, they cannot afford it (our government has been surprisingly consistent in their cuts, with the military, police and security all taking hits along with everyone else).  That kinda puts them in a bind.  Shit, the government negotiated with the banks when they tried to blow up the world, because they didn't have a choice.  So long as the violence continues, the government doesn't have a choice except to politicize the riots and so find a political, rather than force-based solution.

Quote from: Cain on August 10, 2011, 10:55:50 AM

QuoteCanning Circus police station in central Nottingham was firebombed by a male gang on Tuesday evening. Nottinghamshire Police said 90 people had been arrested

In Liverpool, Merseyside Police have arrested 50 people in relation to disorder in the city

Nine people have been arrested in Gloucester after police officers came under attack from youths throwing stones and bottles from 23:00 BST

In Leicester, a group of up to 100 youths attacked shops and threw items at police, with 13 arrests

In Bristol, police arrested 19 people following a second night of trouble

Thames Valley Police made 15 arrests linked to trouble overnight

Metropolitan Police have arrested 768 people and charged 105 in connection with the violence in the capital, including a 21-year-old man who was arrested on suspicion of arson with intent to endanger life following a fire which took hold of the Reeves Furniture store in Croydon on Monday night

Officers from all eight Scottish Police forces are being sent to help colleagues in the Midlands and North of England deal with rioting and looting

A 26-year-old man found shot in a car in Croydon, amid rioting in the south London town, has died in hospital

Government minister Michael Gove has praised the Met's response to the riots, saying bringing in an extra 10,000 officers helped to prevent further riots from taking place in London

Meanwhile, two 18-year-olds in Folkestone, Kent, and a 19-year-old woman in Wakefield have been arrested. A 16-year-old boy in Glasgow was charged with breach of the peace while another man, aged 18, has been arrested. All relate to allegations of inciting violence through internet social networking sites

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) said on Tuesday that ballistic tests presented "no evidence" that a handgun found at the scene where Mark Duggan, 29, was killed in Tottenham had been fired at officers

Anyone have a number of cats who we can look forward to being away?  :evil:

Via Amazon.co.uk...allegedly

(http://i.imgur.com/8BFYG.png)

Could well be shooped, but made me laugh regardless.

Mencius Moldbug sarcastically notes:

QuoteMovers and shakers #4, #5, and #6 evince the same remarkable upsurge - in the last 24 hours! - in transatlantic attention to our romantic national pastime. Now that's what I call a special relationship! Can an expansion team be far behind? The London Chavs, perhaps? But why is no one buying gloves? UK readers please note: barehanding a long fly ball is no joke.

You're displaying remarkable perspicuity, however, in voting aluminium. Admittedly, the "Bronx" brand exerts a powerful fashion attraction. But not only is the aluminium bat cheaper, it's almost impossible to break. There's not much use in a broken baseball bat. And remember: the strike zone starts at the knees.

Three days late and a dollar short:

http://www.voxeu.org/sites/default/files/file/DP8513.pdf

QuoteExpenditure cuts carry a significant risk of increasing the frequency of riots, anti-government demonstrations, general strikes, political assassinations, and attempts at revolutionary overthrow of the established order. While these are low- probability events in normal years, they become much more common as austerity measures are implemented. ... We demonstrate that the general pattern of association between unrest and budget cuts holds in Europe for the period 1919-2009. It can be found in almost all sub-periods, and for all types of unrest. Strikingly, where we can trace the cause of each incident (during the period 1980-95), we can show that only austerity-inspired demonstrations respond to budget cuts in the time- series. Also, when we use recently-developed data that allows clean identification of policy-driven changes in the budget balance, our results hold.

on the radio this morning, they said something to the effect of "Officials are trying to end the violence... but they have to contend with attitudes like this..."

and then they cut in a soundbyte of some overexcited Scotsman with a heavy brogue talking reallllly quickly. I couldn't understand a word of it!  :lulz:

Where do you see this ending Cain?

Hard to say.  If the violence spreads to Scotland, where the reserve police are coming from, it's going to be pure whack-a-mole policing.

In the short term, the police will just carry on mass-arresting and giving beatdowns to anyone who looks like fighting back.  That'll cause the violence to eventually fizzle out, but it's not going to solve the root problems.  They are a) everyone hates the police b) no-one trusts the police and c) everyone now knows that policing is a social fiction and police do not exist, only men with badges and truncheons.

Expect another flareup in six to nine months.

Quote from: Cain on August 10, 2011, 03:44:09 PM
Hard to say.  If the violence spreads to Scotland, where the reserve police are coming from, it's going to be pure whack-a-mole policing.

In the short term, the police will just carry on mass-arresting and giving beatdowns to anyone who looks like fighting back.  That'll cause the violence to eventually fizzle out, but it's not going to solve the root problems.  They are a) everyone hates the police b) no-one trusts the police and c) everyone now knows that policing is a social fiction and police do not exist, only men with badges and truncheons.

Expect another flareup in six to nine months.

Damn. In that case I predict an open police state for you soon.

Soon?

:lulz:

(http://cartastrophe.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/map.jpg?w=655&h=326)

Damn.

Quote from: Cain on August 10, 2011, 03:44:09 PM
Hard to say.  If the violence spreads to Scotland, where the reserve police are coming from, it's going to be pure whack-a-mole policing.

In the short term, the police will just carry on mass-arresting and giving beatdowns to anyone who looks like fighting back.  That'll cause the violence to eventually fizzle out, but it's not going to solve the root problems.  They are a) everyone hates the police b) no-one trusts the police and c) everyone now knows that policing is a social fiction and police do not exist, only men with badges and truncheons.

Expect another flareup in six to nine months.

Not everyone. Not yet. In scotland, tho, more and more people have been cottoning on to this for years now. Most of the places I've stayed in my life community policing means taking a brick to someones face if they fuck with you. The coppers will be involved if it's a murder but, generally, everyone knows they're no fucking use if you need something done. The woodentops are basically bouncers for football matches and social gatherings. CID are just a bunch of bent cunts who spend so much time looking after their own agendas, if it wasn't for the cheap grey suits you couldn't tell them apart from the legitimate gangsters, who generally tend to dress better.

Quote from: Cain on August 10, 2011, 03:51:51 PM
Soon?

:lulz:

(http://cartastrophe.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/map.jpg?w=655&h=326)

Go greece. The only country in the world where the government cant afford to violate your civil liberties.

Quote from: Cain on August 10, 2011, 03:51:51 PM
Soon?

:lulz:

(http://cartastrophe.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/map.jpg?w=655&h=326)

Thanks for the map find.

Quote from: Cain on August 10, 2011, 03:18:21 PM
Three days late and a dollar short:

http://www.voxeu.org/sites/default/files/file/DP8513.pdf

QuoteExpenditure cuts carry a significant risk of increasing the frequency of riots, anti-government demonstrations, general strikes, political assassinations, and attempts at revolutionary overthrow of the established order. While these are low- probability events in normal years, they become much more common as austerity measures are implemented. ... We demonstrate that the general pattern of association between unrest and budget cuts holds in Europe for the period 1919-2009. It can be found in almost all sub-periods, and for all types of unrest. Strikingly, where we can trace the cause of each incident (during the period 1980-95), we can show that only austerity-inspired demonstrations respond to budget cuts in the time- series. Also, when we use recently-developed data that allows clean identification of policy-driven changes in the budget balance, our results hold.

me and my mum were attributing the riots to this at lunch today.

I've been losing facebook friends at an alarming rate the last 36 hours.

Apparently it's bad form to be on the side of the rioters. :lulz:

Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on August 10, 2011, 07:56:21 PM
I've been losing facebook friends at an alarming rate the last 36 hours.

Apparently it's bad form to be on the side of the rioters. :lulz:

:mittens:

Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on August 10, 2011, 07:56:21 PM
I've been losing facebook friends at an alarming rate the last 36 hours.

Apparently it's bad form to be on the side of the rioters. :lulz:

You say that like it's a bad thing.   :lulz:

It hasn't gone so far as FB blocks, but I have been quite surprised at how many of my Lib'rul friends are pro-cops on this one.

Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on August 10, 2011, 07:56:21 PM
I've been losing facebook friends at an alarming rate the last 36 hours.

Apparently it's bad form to be on the side of the rioters. :lulz:

It seems to be bad form to even suggest that there are reasons why it happened at all.  :?

Also, shooped looters. http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/#.TkLP9cBbVmk.twitter

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 10, 2011, 08:05:48 PM
It hasn't gone so far as FB blocks, but I have been quite surprised at how many of my Lib'rul friends are pro-cops on this one.

Most people will be. Most don't look at the situation deeply enough to be sympathetic. "Evil" that's all they see. Personally I can understand how they got that way and sympathise with how they feel but only until they're charging down my street trying to burn down my shit. Then they're just targets. Objects to be neutralised. They're no different to any other people I don't know. Same judgement call - threat/harmless. Talking monkeys most of them, rioters and cops and news of the world readers alike. They're setting each other on fire. Enjoy the show.

Official reason for the riots.

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/active%20ones/gtariots.png)

Any word from the evangelicals on this? Was London going to "do something gay"?

(http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpoxjo9bns1qzfebyo1_250.gif)

In related news: (http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/09/technology/amazon_riot/)

QuoteAmazon UK's riot gear sales soar: Aluminum bats up 6,000%
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Aluminum bats, police nightsticks and other weapons dominated the "movers and shakers" list of hot-selling items in Amazon.uk's Sports shop on Tuesday as riots spread across Britain for the third day.

Quote from: Risus on August 10, 2011, 08:51:16 PM
(http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpoxjo9bns1qzfebyo1_250.gif)

In related news: (http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/09/technology/amazon_riot/)

QuoteAmazon UK's riot gear sales soar: Aluminum bats up 6,000%
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Aluminum bats, police nightsticks and other weapons dominated the "movers and shakers" list of hot-selling items in Amazon.uk's Sports shop on Tuesday as riots spread across Britain for the third day.

Wow, that gif!  :lulz:

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 10, 2011, 08:05:48 PM
It hasn't gone so far as FB blocks, but I have been quite surprised at how many of my Lib'rul friends are pro-cops on this one.

IOZ and his ilk would no doubt say this is due to Liberals, for the most part, secretly yearning for the strong hand of authoritarianism, so long as it is non-discriminatory and not socially regressive.

Over the years, I've found it increasingly hard to discount this POV.

You could point out to these people that one person dies in police custody every two weeks in the UK, and not a single police officer has been put in prison for it.

Either, the police are issuing especially severe beatdowns a lot of the time, and sometimes end up killing people, or, the police are picking out certain individuals (almost uniformly black) to be killed while in custody.  Either way, that sounds pretty awful.

Quote from: Cain on August 10, 2011, 11:01:12 PM

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 10, 2011, 08:05:48 PM
It hasn't gone so far as FB blocks, but I have been quite surprised at how many of my Lib'rul friends are pro-cops on this one.

IOZ and his ilk would no doubt say this is due to Liberals, for the most part, secretly yearning for the strong hand of authoritarianism, so long as it is non-discriminatory and not socially regressive.

Over the years, I've found it increasingly hard to discount this POV.

You could point out to these people that one person dies in police custody every two weeks in the UK, and not a single police officer has been put in prison for it.

Either, the police are issuing especially severe beatdowns a lot of the time, and sometimes end up killing people, or, the police are picking out certain individuals (almost uniformly black) to be killed while in custody.  Either way, that sounds pretty awful.

The worst thing is, that this scenario doesn't even sound far fetched. It seems that every week there's yet another story about how massively corrupt  the Police Force really is. At top level too, not just the occasional 'Bent Copper'. Couple this with the ever increasing list of powers they are armed with these days, and the lack of any accountability whatsoever, and it's no wonder people take to the Streets. They have no other recourse open to them. The  I.P.C.C is a giant piss take,
with any complaints against Police being investigated by, and dealt with by. . . . . . .  . The Police. Which kinda makes you wonder about their remit, and whose protection they are concerned with in the first place. 

Well, one or the other has to be true.

Also, if people want to whine about the rule of law and economic damage, just point out that banks destroyed 40% of all global wealth in 2008 (figure from Moody's).  Not a single banker has gone to prison.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 10, 2011, 08:00:12 PM

Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on August 10, 2011, 07:56:21 PM
I've been losing facebook friends at an alarming rate the last 36 hours.

Apparently it's bad form to be on the side of the rioters. :lulz:

You say that like it's a bad thing.   :lulz:

Oh, not at all. My real friends know how I really am, and the yahoos that are getting offended on facebook are, of all things, immigrants who live in London. It's fucking hysterically funny. :lulz:

This thread has had some fascinating IP traffic over the past day.

Care to elaborate?

Couple of government departments in the USA, Australia and Japan, more than a few UK universities and a Sky Wireless Internet IP which is quite unlike any other I have seen (and I use Sky for my own wireless internet, so I know their usual band of numbers).

That's just fucking creepy.

Some of that may be my fault. I'm pretty sure my internet traffic gets monitored when we're on these sorts of jobs.

Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on August 11, 2011, 03:06:27 AM
That's just fucking creepy.

Like the eye of Sauron, looking for The Ring.
Except they're probably searching for the evil mastermind who orchestrated the whole thing from his Blackberry. Via peoples "Twatter" feeds. 

Jesus, at everything.


You guys sound like you're fine (as in your physical well-being), and I hope it stays that way.

They were playing more Cameron clips on NPR this morning

he said the riots were not a result of poverty, they were a result of children being raised without respect for authority or a sense of right and wrong

Yeah, my favourite quote is how we can't ignore the fundamental moral issues at the heart of the riots. Obviously taking away benefits and housing from those who dare to lose control of their children will help whip it right back into shape. It certainly won't perpetuate the problem by making violent looting and jail seem like a more attractive proposition than homelessness.  :)

Ed Milliband, to my shock, actually sounded remarkably sensible in his response to Cameron, and he was trying to stress the complicated nature of the motivations for the riots. He'll be ignored, of course, because 'greedy and entitled poor people want YOUR STUFF' sells more papers than a complex analysis of the issues which are actually at the root of the problems.

Cain predicted more riots in six-nine months, and I reckon that's dead on the money. My dad, bizarrely, seems to think that we won't get riots in winter because the cold dissuades people... I think that when Christmas rolls around and there's a lot more people with a lot less money, that'll exacerbate the economic factor to it.

I also hate that this is being used to allow police the right to demand you take off anything covering your face if they suspect you might possibly be thinking of doing something criminal. I expect to hear about that being used to harass muslim women soon enough. And it'll make it a lot easier to capture pictures of peaceful protesters and make their lives miserable later.

Not that the police would ever do such a thing. No no no.  :roll:

Quote from: Cramulus on August 11, 2011, 02:58:25 PM
They were playing more Cameron clips on NPR this morning

he said the riots were not a result of poverty, they were a result of children being raised without respect for authority or a sense of right and wrong

Aint easy to hang onto a fluffy moral fiction when you're the one that's been getting shat on since before you were old enough to duck. But then the powers that be know this. Any idiot with half a brain knows this. In other words - a tiny percentage. The rest will swallow it, hook line and sinker and that's all that matters in the end. The people will ask to pay for safety, using freedom as currency and a whole new bunch of police powers will be introduced and nothing will change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o78eH18OHzM

Street Sweeping after the riots.

Interesting.  Except that macarana part.  Fuck, people still do that?

Quote from: Demolition_Squid on August 11, 2011, 03:10:46 PM
Yeah, my favourite quote is how we can't ignore the fundamental moral issues at the heart of the riots. Obviously taking away benefits and housing from those who dare to lose control of their children will help whip it right back into shape. It certainly won't perpetuate the problem by making violent looting and jail seem like a more attractive proposition than homelessness.  :)

Ed Milliband, to my shock, actually sounded remarkably sensible in his response to Cameron, and he was trying to stress the complicated nature of the motivations for the riots. He'll be ignored, of course, because 'greedy and entitled poor people want YOUR STUFF' sells more papers than a complex analysis of the issues which are actually at the root of the problems.

Cain predicted more riots in six-nine months, and I reckon that's dead on the money. My dad, bizarrely, seems to think that we won't get riots in winter because the cold dissuades people... I think that when Christmas rolls around and there's a lot more people with a lot less money, that'll exacerbate the economic factor to it.

I also hate that this is being used to allow police the right to demand you take off anything covering your face if they suspect you might possibly be thinking of doing something criminal. I expect to hear about that being used to harass muslim women soon enough. And it'll make it a lot easier to capture pictures of peaceful protesters and make their lives miserable later.

Not that the police would ever do such a thing. No no no.  :roll:

Harriet Harman owned the fuck out of Michael Gove in a debate the other day, as well.

The cold may well dissuade winter rioting...but this country is massively underequipped for severe cold snaps, and the results of a week of snow (with the attendant food shortages) could be enough to kick something off.  Or, a thaw in spring (our March and April's are pretty mild now, after all).

You know some phrases we haven't heard about, in relation to the riot?  Freedom is messy.  Or creative destruction, or enlightened selfishness or there is no such thing as society.

David Cameron is talking out of his arse in this piece.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/aug/11/david-cameron-rioters-social-media

Police given the power to remove all facial coverings, whether they have reasonable suspicion or not.

Councils given the power to evict criminals.

Petition to suspend the benefits of those suspected of being involved in the violence and looting is still doing the rounds.

Quote from: Cain on August 11, 2011, 05:06:35 PM
Police given the power to remove all facial coverings, whether they have reasonable suspicion or not.

Councils given the power to evict criminals.

Petition to suspend the benefits of those suspected of being involved in the violence and looting is still doing the rounds.

What are, "Ways to ensure public unrest continues"?



I'll take Potent Potables for $300, Alex.

1500 people have been arrested and are going through the court system at a surprising rate.

It's amazing how fast the wheels of justice turn, when you're not a banker  :lol:

Quote from: Cain on August 11, 2011, 05:27:41 PM
1500 people have been arrested and are going through the court system at a surprising rate.

It's amazing how fast the wheels of justice turn, when you're not a banker  :lol:

Justice or injustice? Kangaroo courts are usually short and sweet, aren't they?

Most people have been caught pretty bang to rights.  Between CCTV and every phone having a camera and all the TV crews out there, there is plenty of documentary evidence to put people away for a while.

Quote from: Cain on August 11, 2011, 05:30:30 PM
Most people have been caught pretty bang to rights.  Between CCTV and every phone having a camera and all the TV crews out there, there is plenty of documentary evidence to put people away for a while.

Catch 22? They will have to lower benefits to pay for everyone in prison now? Hell of a decade.

Quote from: Cain on August 10, 2011, 11:15:24 AM
This is worrying

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/09/london-riots-day-four-live-blog?CMP=twt_gu

QuoteIt was only a minor skirmish, but a potentially bad sign for community relations. Police, who have flooded the streets, were quickly on the scene when about 70 men started chasing local youths.

I wouldn't mention their ethnicity, but it seemed to be relevant. The men were white - in their 30s and 40s - and shouting that they wanted to get the "blacks" and "pakis". Lots of them seemed drunk. One man being held back by police shouted: "They're rats, they mugged my Auntie the other night."

Jay Bradley, 30, a witness, told me: "What happened here? What I just saw - everyone from this area aren't gonna have any looting.
What I saw was a couple of ethnic lads, if you can call them that, black lads, and they chased them away.  A lot of it is alcohol - I don't think the kids were doing anything. They were just on bikes and in masks. But no-one around here is going to stand for any looting. What are we supposed to do. The Co-op is closed and we're running out of food."

Not least because, as Richard Seymour (http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/08/racist-vigilantes-on-loose.html) points out:

QuoteI don't believe that this is just a spontaneous response to looters. When the BNP membership list was leaked, it emerged that there were a number of members scattered around the lower middle class areas, and I wouldn't be surprised if they, along with local EDL supporters, were among those out tonight. The emergence of racist vigilantism is not unique to Enfield. It's also emerged that racist Millwall fans are supposedly 'protecting' Eltham tonight. Apparently, the EDL have been marching through the area. [Update: local residents and Millwall fans both assure me that this is untrue, and that it's just locals protecting themselves. Which, if true, is a relief - but one is still uneasy about vigilantes in football gear posing as defenders of the community.]

[...]

Update: Given that there are lots of unsupported rumours flying about, I think it's important to add a couple of important qualifications to this post. A lot of the rumours going about are originating from the far right themselves - part of their propaganda about being men of action, etc. And some of them could result in people getting hurt. Naturally, I have no wish to contribute to either, so I'm just being cautious. First of all, I have heard conflicting things about the far right being involved in Enfield, but as yet no proof of this has emerged. It may well be just local racists. Guardian journalist Paul Lewis is being careful to say he only witnessed a brief skirmish (though, from the footage I've seen, it was a really nasty, scary event). Second, loads of people have been tweeting me to say it's not the EDL in Eltham. (There is some footage of what appear to be EDL being kettled there, but not the 400-strong mob that the casuals were bragging about). I'm still not okay with vigilantism, but there are degrees of danger. I'm not arguing for complacency. There are some real fascist efforts at stirring. Most of it has been kettled by the cops so far, however. So, I would bear these points in mind when you're scanning social media for updates.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/self-defence-no-offence-%E2%80%93-we-will-protect-our-communities
http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/regional/printing-new-party-recruitment-leaflet-underway-burnley

(http://i52.tinypic.com/25oxhf7.jpg)

BNP is milking this for all its worth.

Quote from: Risus on August 10, 2011, 08:51:16 PM
(http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpoxjo9bns1qzfebyo1_250.gif)

:lol:

Stopping in to link to a bit of analysis I'm really impressed with.  Inadequate sum-up: If you've been raised to be a consumer and not a citizen, exactly how are you supposed to dissent?  Shopocalypse Now: British riots and consumerism (http://transitionvoice.com/2011/08/shopocalypse-now/)

QuoteGiven the opportunity to take to the streets, they come out in force as consumers, not citizens. They protest against their lack of spending power, their lack of high definition TV, the meddlesome need of government to extract taxation from them for services from which (if they reach their dotage) they'll never benefit. They're the purest incarnation of our free market—consumer ideology. They're competing against the law for the best results a consumer can ever hope for—something for nothing.

And they're winning.

While pundits are onscreen in the coming weeks with the mandatory hand-wringing, and while Parliament debates the inevitable emergency police powers which will bring water cannons and maybe even rubber bullets onto the streets of London, these consumers will be at home watching it all on their new televisions, comfortably toasty in their new tracksuits. They'll re-absorb the narrative of their activity through the mediated world we created for them, a world which still contains no genuine sense of community, of productive work, of social justice, fairness or equality. But it is reality TV.

QuoteIt has been said that violence is the sign language of the inarticulate. If that is true, as I believe it to be, then how much more pronounced are the violent linguistics of the forcibly muted? This violence turned inward towards the ranks from which it swelled is akin to the self-hatred of the alcoholic, beating himself up about being a drunk instead of laying off the sauce.

By what metric can we judge the behavior of these people once the nature of our society is taken into account? What transgression can we hang on them which does not originate with our own behavior, denial or neglect? Having no sense of community? Having no moral compass? Wanting what they haven't earned? Taking what does not belong to them? Exploiting the weakness of others through violence? Opportunism? Gluttony? Ignorance? Hypocrisy? Madness? Where can we draw a line that distinguishes their actions here from our collective behavior as a society both here and in countless, far-flung places?

Worth reading.  Apologies if it's already been linked elsewhere.

Quote from: BadBeast on August 11, 2011, 04:15:18 AM
... they're probably searching for the evil mastermind who orchestrated the whole thing from his Blackberry.

WHY WON'T THEY LEAVE BLACKBERRY ALOOOOONE!!!?

Quote from: Lord Glittersnatch on August 12, 2011, 05:15:23 AM
BNP is milking this for all its worth.

The action that is needed... is more drunken naked racist white people?  :splodey:

Fortunately, the BNP are in something of an electoral black hole at the moment, ranting about how the hole wasn't born in the UK and so isn't British - but they totally don't hate it because it is black, oh no.

Ahem.

They lost most of their money in the 2008 financial crisis, and typically do poor when a Conservative government is in power.  They got beaten by the Greens in the last elections (who have 1 MP) and are being ideologically outflanked by UKIP, who are cornering the bitter, disappointed Tory "libertarian" and the "former neofascist now masquerading as an anti-Islam freedom fighter" crowds at the same time.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

heheh, the Telegraph agrees with me and my mummy.

Ask not what your country can do for you, ask instead whether there's any fucking point to it at all. :lulz:

quite true p3nt

Quote from: Hoser McRhizzy on August 12, 2011, 05:29:45 AMShopocalypse Now: British riots and consumerism (http://transitionvoice.com/2011/08/shopocalypse-now/)

Quote from: Pixie on August 12, 2011, 10:45:44 AM
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

these were both great reads

they articulate things I've been having trouble expressing

Pixie has been putting up some really good links.  Thank you.

Quote from: Cain on August 11, 2011, 02:46:12 AM
Couple of government departments in the USA, Australia and Japan, more than a few UK universities and a Sky Wireless Internet IP which is quite unlike any other I have seen (and I use Sky for my own wireless internet, so I know their usual band of numbers).

What kind of departments?

In true internet fashion, this video has already gone viral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkyTdhTr7PA

aaaand someone went and hilariously "translated" it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMU4XbxoXZc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUxG6cHPfko&feature=related

Its also been remixed.

Quote from: Pixie on August 12, 2011, 10:45:44 AM
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

heheh, the Telegraph agrees with me and my mummy.

Peter Oborne is one of my favourite journalists, and has been since his days at the Daily Mail.  He was the one willing to call the Labour government and the media "Islamaphobic" when it was fashionable to pretend 20,000 screeds a day on the subhuman untermenschen was a perfectly normal response to having to see someone in a burqa.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/08/12/britain_sees_boston_as_antiviolence_model/ (http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/08/12/britain_sees_boston_as_antiviolence_model/)

Seems the British Government are looking to Boston as a model.  I know Blight is Bostonian, does the model there look like something that could actually help keep this sort of thing from happening again?

The British public are still clamouring for benefits to be taken away.

Irony calling: benefits are both cheaper than putting them in prison, and spending hundreds of police hours hunting petty muggers and robbers - because, lets face it, if benefits are cut and there are no jobs, it's either stealing or starving.

In fact, if you believe that "winning" involves getting people employed, increasing revenue and decreasing resentment as well as getting people invested in their local communities, the best thing you could do is offer condition aid to businesses affected by the riots, so long as they employ more people (insurance will cover the damage anyway)...and then declare a general amnesty for every rioter who finds stable employment that allows them to stop claiming benefits (except in cases of serious violent crime). 

But you know, that's just silly, because it doesn't allow for moral outrage and hair-shirt freakery.

for such an irritating twat, Russel Brand hits the nail on the head with this one.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/london-riots-davidcameron?CMP=NECNETTXT766

and a young man in Tottenham who predicted the riot speaks in this video-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/aug/12/i-predict-a-riot-video?CMP=twt_fd

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/08/11/ukriots.accused/index.html?iref=obinsite

QuoteLondon (CNN) -- Before they started appearing in court, most people assumed London's rioters and looters were unemployed youths with no hope and no future.

So there was much surprise when details of the accused began to emerge, and they included some from wealthy backgrounds or with good jobs.

Those passing through London's courtrooms on Tuesday and Wednesday -- some courts sat overnight to cope with the numbers -- have included a teaching assistant, a lifeguard, a postman, a chef, a charity worker, a millionaire's daughter and an 11-year-old boy, newspapers reported.

The tabloid Sun newspaper wrote in its opinion page on Thursday of the "sick" society described by Prime Minister David Cameron: "The sickness starts on welfare-addicted estates where feckless parents let children run wild."

But its front-page headline told a different story about the accused: "Lifeguard, postman, hairdresser, teacher, millionaire's daughter, chef and schoolboy, 11."

The Daily Mail reported: "While the trouble has been largely blamed on feral teenagers, many of those paraded before the courts yesterday led apparently respectable lives."

The upmarket Daily Telegraph devoted its page three to the case of Laura Johnson, the 19-year-old daughter of a company director who pleaded not guilty to stealing £5,000 ($8,000) of electrical goods, under the headline: "Girl who has it all is accused of theft."

The newspaper said she lived in a converted farmhouse in the leafy London suburb of Orpington, Kent, with extensive grounds and a tennis court, had studied at one of the best-performing state schools in the country and now attends the University of Exeter.

Reporter Andrew Gilligan wrote in the Daily Telegraph: "Here in court, as David Cameron condemned the 'sickness' in parts of British society, we saw clearly, for the first time, the face of the riot: stripped of its hoods and masks, dressed in white prison T-shirts and handcuffed to burly security guards.

"It was rather different from the one we had been expecting."

He added of the defendants at Highbury Magistrates Court in north London: "Most were teenagers or in their early twenties, but a surprising number were older.

"Most interestingly of all, they were predominantly white, and many had jobs."

Most newspapers highlighted the case of Alexis Bailey, a 31-year-old learning mentor in an elementary school, who pleaded guilty to burglary with intent to steal at an electrical store in Croydon, south of London.

It was reported that Bailey surrendered to police without stealing anything.

The youngest defendant so far -- an 11-year-old boy -- also gained much attention in newspapers.

The boy, who cannot be named for legal reasons, from Romford, east of London, admitted stealing a £50 ($80) trash can from a department store, the Guardian reported.

The Daily Mail highlighted the cases of Barry Naine, a 42-year-old charity worker charged with burglary; postman Jeffrey Ebanks, 32, and his student nephew Jamal Ebanks, 18, allegedly caught in a car stuffed with electrical goods near a looted Croydon store.

It also reported that Jason Matthews, a 35-year-old new father arrested in a Tesco supermarket, told police he "was not one of the bad ones" and needed diapers for his baby; and that Christopher Heart, a 23-year-old scaffolder and father of two, shouted "sorry for the inconvenience" and broke down in tears after admitting burglary at a sports shop in east London.

Lifeguard Aaron Mulholland, 30, wept as he appeared in court accused of joining thieves in a cell phone shop, the Daily Mail reported.

The Sun reported that an organic chef, Fitzroy Thomas, 43, and his 47-year-old brother Ronald, denied smashing up a branch of the Nando's chicken restaurant chain.

The Metropolitan Police in London said on its website on Thursday that 401 people have been charged so far.

Greater Manchester Police said five men aged between 46 and 23 had already been jailed for their part in the disorder.

West Midlands Police said 26 people, including a 44-year-old man, had appeared before an overnight court session in relation to the disorder in Birmingham.

Yet the media over here are still interviewing unemployed black youths (literally just saw such an interview on Channel 5).

I suspect the looters were more diverse in background, but those fighting the police were more likely to be the stereotypical view of the rioter.  But that is just a suspicion.

Quote from: Cain on August 12, 2011, 05:27:23 PM
Yet the media over here are still interviewing unemployed black youths (literally just saw such an interview on Channel 5).

I suspect the looters were more diverse in background, but those fighting the police were more likely to be the stereotypical view of the rioter.  But that is just a suspicion.

It's no accident that the pics that get into the media here tend to show about a 9:1 ratio of Black to White rioters.

Over here, too.  Hell, even I slipped into a bit of stereotyping before, with the unemployed bit (the post before Pickles...which incidentally, I still think is a good idea.  Revenue is more important than anything for the security and wellbeing of the United Kingdom right now...though try explaining that to anyone in government).

I can just tell I'm going to have to put up with more crypto-racist musings from my idiot colleagues this evening.  Thank fuck I'm only in for a few hours, to sort stuff out before my time off.  I nearly ended up doing something hilarious to the staff rep this morning, which means it is time for some leave.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 12, 2011, 05:28:43 PM

Quote from: Cain on August 12, 2011, 05:27:23 PM
Yet the media over here are still interviewing unemployed black youths (literally just saw such an interview on Channel 5).

I suspect the looters were more diverse in background, but those fighting the police were more likely to be the stereotypical view of the rioter.  But that is just a suspicion.

It's no accident that the pics that get into the media here tend to show about a 9:1 ratio of Black to White rioters.

Have any examples handy?  The sources I've been reading and pics I've been seeing have not seemed to showcase one skin color over another.   In some of the group shots I've seen, white faces have even been in the majority.  Bias in photos from major news agencies would seem to be an issue that would have legs.

I also read an article highlighting so called "vigilante" groups of Sikhs and Pakistanis organizing to protect their shops and Temples.  Didn't see any of that getting reported with the EDL stuff, which makes me wonder why that would be glossed over.  I'll try and run down the links.

Commentary from an Indian perspective.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/et-cetera/london-riots-community-leaders-take-security-matter-in-own-hands-set-up-vigilante-patrols/articleshow/9572680.cms

and excellent bloomberg column by Pankaj Mishra

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-12/london-s-rioters-are-thatcher-s-grandchildren-commentary-by-pankaj-mishra.html

the bottom one was very good.

Quote from: Cain on August 12, 2011, 05:27:23 PM
Yet the media over here are still interviewing unemployed black youths (literally just saw such an interview on Channel 5).

I suspect the looters were more diverse in background, but those fighting the police were more likely to be the stereotypical view of the rioter.  But that is just a suspicion.

Of course the looters were diverse, it was a perfect license to loot and let somebody else take the blame.

I read someplace that the guys who threw the tea in Boston Harbor dressed up like Indians. It's nothing new.

Quote from: Disco Pickle on August 12, 2011, 05:51:55 PMHave any examples handy?  The sources I've been reading and pics I've been seeing have not seemed to showcase one skin color over another.   In some of the group shots I've seen, white faces have even been in the majority.  Bias in photos from major news agencies would seem to be an issue that would have legs.

Hm, would be interesting collecting all the pics and counting head colours? Then doing a statistical p-test thingy for a confidence level in how likely deviations could have been due to chance.

Quote from: Disco Pickle on August 12, 2011, 05:51:55 PM
I also read an article highlighting so called "vigilante" groups of Sikhs and Pakistanis organizing to protect their shops and Temples.  Didn't see any of that getting reported with the EDL stuff, which makes me wonder why that would be glossed over.  I'll try and run down the links.

That doesn't surprise me, to be honest.  Not least because my sister lives in a heavily Tamil part of London, and they organised patrols and so on there.  Also, anyone stupid enough to fuck with Tamils needs to get their heads checked, since a fair few of them are "ex" LTTE.  Unsurprisingly, my sister's neighbourhood has remained remarkably violence free.  It worries me less than the EDL as well, since such communities are not likely to leverage such actions into political gain, to drive a neofascist agenda.

Yeah, I'm a lot happier to see Sikhs and Pakistanis out there looking out for their shit, than the idea of the EDL, or (What's left of) the BNP 'patrolling' the streets.

Of course, self-defence communities do point to a dangerous breakdown in state authority.

Which I would be terribly broken up about, if I cared about the state and its authority  :lol:

I'd rather see a dangerous breakdown in State Authority, than the even more dangerous build up in State Authority we've been seeing over the last ten years.

Unfortunately, power, like energy, cannot be created or destroyed.  Instead, it tends to get redistributed.  I'm still not decided whether neo-feudalism is any better than neo-autocracy, but I will admit it is, at least for our political culture, different.  And sometimes, that is all the change one needs.

Quote from: Cain on August 13, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
Unfortunately, power, like energy, cannot be created or destroyed.  Instead, it tends to get redistributed.  I'm still not decided whether neo-feudalism is any better than neo-autocracy, but I will admit it is, at least for our political culture, different.  And sometimes, that is all the change one needs.

This!

Quote from: Cain on August 13, 2011, 02:58:05 AM
Unfortunately, power, like energy, cannot be created or destroyed.  Instead, it tends to get redistributed.  I'm still not decided whether neo-feudalism is any better than neo-autocracy, but I will admit it is, at least for our political culture, different.  And sometimes, that is all the change one needs.

:mittens:

The police and government are arguing over who should be blamed more for the response to the riots.

As the police point out, they did in fact implement the strategy which ended the riots.  But, as the government pointed out, they had to field police officers with no riot training, and in the meantime several cities were set on fire and had lots of stuff of stolen.

So it's kinda fun.  I'm actually more on the side of the government here, though that is hardly an endorsement.  Coppers dun fucked it up.  But it's not like we ever saw riots like that in the Blair or Brown years...

Also, no-one at all is talking about why the riots only took place in England.  That is Not To Be Discussed.

Oh, OK, this is funny.

Apparently, some people (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025259/London-riots-Mark-Duggans-uncle-Desmond-Dessie-Noonan-crime-lord.html) are spreading the conspiracy theory that the once-powerful Noonan crime family were behind the Manchester riots, and other riots besides.

Now, back in the day, the Noonans were fairly terrifying, it was true.  And for a lot of the people rioting in Manchester, there is probably the feeling that the Noonan's did for more for them than some idiot MP like Hazel Blears, or certainly the local police. 

But two of the Noonans are dead, which is kind of a problem for the Noonan inspired crime wave.

Especially since the third Noonan, Domenyk, got nicked for stealing cigarettes and booze.  Also, Domenyk has changed his last name to Lattlay-Fottfoy.

Which is an awesome name for a would-be crime lord.  Mr Lattlay-Fottfoy would strike fear and terror into the heart of any man who heard the name (and didn't immediately burst into laughter).

A criminal genius Mr Lattlay-Fottfoy is not.  So somewhow I think the conspiracy theory here is, shall we say, not quite accurate?

Quote from: Cain on August 13, 2011, 06:52:18 PM
Oh, OK, this is funny.

Apparently, some people (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025259/London-riots-Mark-Duggans-uncle-Desmond-Dessie-Noonan-crime-lord.html) are spreading the conspiracy theory that the once-powerful Noonan crime family were behind the Manchester riots, and other riots besides.

Now, back in the day, the Noonans were fairly terrifying, it was true.  And for a lot of the people rioting in Manchester, there is probably the feeling that the Noonan's did for more for them than some idiot MP like Hazel Blears, or certainly the local police. 

But two of the Noonans are dead, which is kind of a problem for the Noonan inspired crime wave.

Especially since the third Noonan, Domenyk, got nicked for stealing cigarettes and booze.  Also, Domenyk has changed his last name to Lattlay-Fottfoy.

Which is an awesome name for a would-be crime lord.  Mr Lattlay-Fottfoy would strike fear and terror into the heart of any man who heard the name (and didn't immediately burst into laughter).

A criminal genius Mr Lattlay-Fottfoy is not.  So somewhow I think the conspiracy theory here is, shall we say, not quite accurate?

Domenyk Lattlay-Fottfoy is an AMAZING name. AMAZING.  :lulz:

It is indeed.

Also, amazing racist outburst by well noted idiot on the BBC.  I can't be bothered to go into the tedious details, so I will quote someone who already has:

QuoteOh my, the horror! A man who is notorious for making idiotic statements on television has made some more idiotic statements on television.

Specifically, he's saying that white people are turning into criminals because they have been in some way Blackified by malignant osmosis with some black people, who aren't themselves criminals due to biological or racial characteristics - oh, heaven forfend that anyone should take it that way! - but because of "cultural factors". Seasoned idiot-watchers will notice that Cultural Factors are the Biological or Racial Characteristics that it's okay to cite in the press.

Shuggy makes the appropriate point that the sole reason for asking David Starkey onto your current affairs show is to horrify the audience into pearl-clutching paroxysms. He isn't there to clarify issues or to represent Britain's sizeable ignorant reactionary demographic - he's there specifically to make offensive and stupid remarks.

Quote from: Cain on August 14, 2011, 12:05:39 AM
It is indeed.

Also, amazing racist outburst by well noted idiot on the BBC.  I can't be bothered to go into the tedious details, so I will quote someone who already has:

QuoteOh my, the horror! A man who is notorious for making idiotic statements on television has made some more idiotic statements on television.

Specifically, he's saying that white people are turning into criminals because they have been in some way Blackified by malignant osmosis with some black people, who aren't themselves criminals due to biological or racial characteristics - oh, heaven forfend that anyone should take it that way! - but because of "cultural factors". Seasoned idiot-watchers will notice that Cultural Factors are the Biological or Racial Characteristics that it's okay to cite in the press.

Shuggy makes the appropriate point that the sole reason for asking David Starkey onto your current affairs show is to horrify the audience into pearl-clutching paroxysms. He isn't there to clarify issues or to represent Britain's sizeable ignorant reactionary demographic - he's there specifically to make offensive and stupid remarks.

:lulz:

Similar to the scare-mongering in the lat 80's early 90's here with regard to "Rap and Hip Hop culture infecting otherwise upstanding white folk"

That's not a quotable source, but I have no doubt those exact words have been said many times.

As if color of skin somehow inclines people toward criminal acts.

Yeah.  Over here, a few of the words change (only a very few), but the sentiments are pretty much the same.

I will admit I am somewhat surprised at the level of racism directed towards black people in the UK still.  I kinda expect it towards South Asians and Arabs, but unlike with the USA, and to a degree France, it's not very overt in the UK at all.  I know historically, things were very different, with the National Front, Enoch Powell and the rest ("rivers of blood" oh my!), and there are continuing issues with kids of Jamiacan origins in education...but the level of overtly racist vitriol is kinda shocking to me.  And because I'm not used to hearing it as much, it makes it all the more worrying to realise this has been bubbling along underground for quite a while in the national consciousness.

I've noticed that it never goes away, it just gets sneakier when things are quiet. Then some black person somewhere does something and the racists start squawking and throwing feces.

It's pretty institutionalized, and they sneak it in any way they can. My kids went to some church picnic once for the games and free cookies, and came back laughing because the pastor had said "All rap music comes from the devil". To make it like he wasn't just slamming black people, he added "AC/DC doesn't write any of their own music."  :horrormirth:

Quote from: Cain on August 14, 2011, 12:26:47 AM
Yeah.  Over here, a few of the words change (only a very few), but the sentiments are pretty much the same.

I will admit I am somewhat surprised at the level of racism directed towards black people in the UK still.  I kinda expect it towards South Asians and Arabs, but unlike with the USA, and to a degree France, it's not very overt in the UK at all.  I know historically, things were very different, with the National Front, Enoch Powell and the rest ("rivers of blood" oh my!), and there are continuing issues with kids of Jamiacan origins in education...but the level of overtly racist vitriol is kinda shocking to me.  And because I'm not used to hearing it as much, it makes it all the more worrying to realise this has been bubbling along underground for quite a while in the national consciousness.

I have been kicking around this idea in my head for a few years about race and how it does factor in to people's thoughts.  Mostly white people, since I'm one of the melanin deficient.  

It goes a little something like this:  The planet has ended "official" slavery or state run slavery in what, the last 200 years?  That's not a very long time.  In that time we've taken some really big steps to try and help even the playing field.  Some would say not enough, and they make fair arguments.  Socially, it's becoming more and more of a taboo to call out skin color as a reason for disliking someone on sight.  That has only been happening for what, the last 100?  The death of Jim Crow laws and Segregation only happened here less than a century ago.  A lot of those same people that defended that shit are still alive.  More importantly, their children are still alive, and breeding, and possibly infecting their children with the same shit.  

I have high hopes that the spreading of that sort of vitriol is dying with every successive generation, and I really do believe it is.  At the same time, I see the outrage at anyone still a racist and have to say that the expectation that it is going to disappear as quickly as your computer will become obsolete is probably a symptom of the information age, wanting change now.

That being said, I think it's still the most healthy thing.  Point it out and call it what it is when you see it.  Shine a light on it and don't let anyone hide under the blanket of "My parents taught it to me."  Don't fall into the leftist meme that racism is only a "white people problem"  Just don't expect it's going to disappear in one generation.  Racism exists and will likely always exist on parts of the planet.  It runs closely parallel with nationalism, a useless fucking waste of energy and thought if ever there was one.  I guess what I'm saying is keep chipping at it.  Wear it down.  But don't expect to see the end of it in our lifetime.

</end> soapbox tangent

Jim Crow and Segregation ended in the 60's, so that's half a century, and even after that it was socially acceptable in a lot of circles to dislike someone based on skin color.  Racism also seems to be increasing in the younger generation, unlike homophobia which does actually seem to be dying off. 

Our government still drums up nationalism when it is convenient, and I think until there is a much greater level of income equality between races in the US that racism will persist.  Prejudice against the poor will never go away and as long as black people are more likely to be poor than white people middle class white people are going to be racist, whether they admit it or not.

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on August 14, 2011, 04:09:37 AM
Jim Crow and Segregation ended in the 60's, so that's half a century, and even after that it was socially acceptable in a lot of circles to dislike someone based on skin color.  Racism also seems to be increasing in the younger generation, unlike homophobia which does actually seem to be dying off. 

Our government still drums up nationalism when it is convenient, and I think until there is a much greater level of income equality between races in the US that racism will persist.  Prejudice against the poor will never go away and as long as black people are more likely to be poor than white people middle class white people are going to be racist, whether they admit it or not.

What are you basing this off of? Everything Ive heard has said the opposite.

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on August 14, 2011, 04:09:37 AM
Jim Crow and Segregation ended in the 60's, so that's half a century, and even after that it was socially acceptable in a lot of circles to dislike someone based on skin color.  Racism also seems to be increasing in the younger generation, unlike homophobia which does actually seem to be dying off. 

Our government still drums up nationalism when it is convenient, and I think until there is a much greater level of income equality between races in the US that racism will persist.  Prejudice against the poor rich will never go away and as long as black white people are more likely to be poor rich than white black people middle lower class white black people are going to be racist, whether they admit it or not.

Not entirely sure that's consistent enough to be true, but then I'm not black. 

I'd be very interested in any opinions on how swapping those words does or does not have a basis in reality.

I actually don't have a good handle on racism in America, despite being a "person of color". For one thing, I'm in Portland, and for another, everywhere I've traveled has tended to accept me as "close enough". I guess that's a benefit of being a mixed-race American in this century. I'm enough white that white people tend to accept me, black enough that black people tend to accept me, and brown enough that brown people... well, they generally seem to find me some kind of exotic in-between.

Can't recommend it highly enough.

Quote from: Disco Pickle on August 14, 2011, 06:29:24 AM

Quote from: BabylonHoruv on August 14, 2011, 04:09:37 AM
Jim Crow and Segregation ended in the 60's, so that's half a century, and even after that it was socially acceptable in a lot of circles to dislike someone based on skin color.  Racism also seems to be increasing in the younger generation, unlike homophobia which does actually seem to be dying off. 

Our government still drums up nationalism when it is convenient, and I think until there is a much greater level of income equality between races in the US that racism will persist.  Prejudice against the poor rich will never go away and as long as black white people are more likely to be poor rich than white black people middle lower class white black people are going to be racist, whether they admit it or not.

Not entirely sure that's consistent enough to be true, but then I'm not black. 

I'd be very interested in any opinions on how swapping those words does or does not have a basis in reality.

I don't know if that's accurate or not, but if it is it has the same solution, more equality of income between races.

I know I am prejudiced against rich people.

Glittersnatch,  I'm going on what I see in the papers and my interactions with younger people.  I don't have any hard studies of the fact so may be totally wrong.

Police and government continuing to argue.

This is fun. 

what about the whole bit where they want to shut down social networks?

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/08/turn-off-social-media-and-news/

I hope they do it.

I want to see the hordes of people who would turn out on the streets to riot in protest when they can't share every thought they have about how awful the riot is, or because they are unable to tend to their facebook farms.  :lulz:

Oh yes.  Absolutely.

Quote from: Cain on August 14, 2011, 12:26:47 AM
Yeah.  Over here, a few of the words change (only a very few), but the sentiments are pretty much the same.

I will admit I am somewhat surprised at the level of racism directed towards black people in the UK still.  I kinda expect it towards South Asians and Arabs, but unlike with the USA, and to a degree France, it's not very overt in the UK at all.  I know historically, things were very different, with the National Front, Enoch Powell and the rest ("rivers of blood" oh my!), and there are continuing issues with kids of Jamiacan origins in education...but the level of overtly racist vitriol is kinda shocking to me.  And because I'm not used to hearing it as much, it makes it all the more worrying to realise this has been bubbling along underground for quite a while in the national consciousness.

INORITE! I mean, for fuck's sake, you people turned the Brigadier into a black lady way back in 1987. WTF happened?

On a more serious note, I'm experiencing something similar here. I knew we had bigots, but at least they had the decency to not talk about it in public, but then the Mosque happened, they protested in the streets, and now they have their very own newspaper.

hm, so the social media thing is kind of a red herring in your opinion?

or just some collateral excuse to pull whatever strings tighter?

sounds plausible.

"Engines stop running,  but I have no fear, cuz London's burning, and I . . . . . . live by the river!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cstGXonEXoQ

I think the racism against blacks has been mostly stirred up by the Daily Mail. Knowing that they can't pin this on the Moslems, or illegal immigrants, they've gone for the next lowest common denominator and are heaping blame on British kids, of West Indian parentage for forcing their "Jamaican Gang culture" into decent, white areas. It's been a long time since such allegations have been levelled at British West Indians in this way, butt I think (hope) people generally discount "popular opinion" as portrayed by the Daily Mail.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TlRVabHMw0&feature=related
(Same song, better footage)

http://thedailywh.at/2011/08/15/facebook-profiling-of-the-day/ :

QuoteFacebook Profiling of the Day: And so it begins?: Mere days after UK PM David Cameron told parliament he was exploring the possibility of banning social network users who appear to be plotting criminal behavior (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/aug/11/david-cameron-rioters-social-media), a 20-year-old man from Colchester in Essex was arrested for allegedly attempting to organize a mass water fight (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/aug/15/essex-water-fight-blackberry-messenger) through BlackBerry Messenger and Facebook.

"In the light of recent events, we would have to be careful that [the planned water fight] is not all that it seems," an Essex Police spokesman is quoted as saying.

The unidentified man has been charged with "encouraging or assisting in the commission of an offence" and is scheduled to appear before magistrates next month.

ugh that sounds rather like the bullshit we have over here about "Twitter death threats", which invariably turn out to be highschool kids that crossed the line badmouthing their teachers or classmates.

the police says they have to take this VERY seriously and the kids can get in a lot of trouble.

in response to this, a few people created http://doodsbedreiging.nl/ ("death-threat.nl"), which monitors Twitter, searches and scans for certain key phrases, plus I think some manual checking, and posts them on that site.

the conclusion is that it turns out that there are actually quite some very real and very serious death threats and threats of violence on the (Dutch) Twitter. ones that are proven very real by the sad pathetic criminal youth showing off their cuts and bruises afterwards.

but somehow the police doesn't seem to take the threats very serious if there's, you know, actual possibility of violence involved.

Well Trip, it's like over here, the police will be reluctant to get involved if rioters are actually, you know, committing violence.  They might get hurt!

Never mind practically every non-violent protest of the last decade has involved the police battering the hell out of peaceful protestors and students, or else just "kettling" them somewhere for 10 hours without food or water or access to toilets.

The police, as a rule, like easy targets.  Fulfills their quotas, doesn't carry a huge amount of risk.  Let SO19 and Special Branch handle the tricky jobs (when they're not shooting people for the hell of it, or passing on confidential information to the News of the World), they have the pay and the training for it.

for such we have the ME ("mobile unit"). I discussed with my friends that this must be the most important reason why we're not going to have such kinds of riots here. and I'm not really sure if it's a good reason.

they're like a cross between military, police, thugs and killer robots. except they don't really kill, just maim and flatten. the guys with the facemasks, body armour, big sticks, you know the type. except ours are fucking organized. all wearing an earpiece, they only work in units, they don't have names, their unit has a number. then they make a row, and close in somewhere--this is when most smart people GTFO--and perform a "charge". if it's a protest and idiots think "let's sit down so they can't move us" they'll pick them up and just fucking throw them away, everyone in the way is fair game, a charge is supposed to swipe the streets clean.
oh yeah and there's the horses. big huge fucking strong horses with blinders that are trained to STEP ON PEOPLE.
and they're thugs. big part of their ranks is hooligans that just find they enjoy hitting people so much they might as well join the winning side. if you happen to be on the wrong side of an ME line, you can still get out provided you look innocent enough, but expect to be bashed about as you talked the front guy into letting you through, the one behind him will think you broke their line and you'll be out of there in no time.

I may not describe it perfectly, and I don't know all their techniques, but they're very good and efficient at what they do, usually, when they arrive, whatever's going on is over within 20-30 minutes.

so I guess, as long as these guys are around, affecting change in NL is going to have to go through the more democratic and/or traditional channels :)

Unless, of course, your rioters adopt our tactics and disperse, rather than concentrate.

That's what fucked up our trained riot police (who only made up a small percentage of those actually dressed in riot uniforms), that they couldn't actually locate the rioters.  Occasionally the police would corner a group and arrest them, but for the most part, you'll notice they're relying on after-riot raids to nab them.  Anytime the police would be on the move, spotters would alert rioters, and they would fade into the crowds (of which there were plenty, surprisingly) and reappear a couple of miles away.

It's not a useful tactic for protesting, where you want to make a big show of marching on X Location, but for violence and looting, it's pretty effective.

Okay, I thought there was also some deal about not being allowed to hit people that get in the way or something?

Really?  I hadn't heard that.

I had heard from a copper down in Tottenham that he had been beating people so hard he broke his truncheon in half, though.  So I suspect it was not an issue.

As of 8 minutes ago, British police have curfew powers.

http://gulftoday.ae/portal/cb13b736-d1bb-4cd0-9424-00f61f3169eb.aspx

MIEN SIEG!
\
(http://gulftoday.ae/uploads/images/2011/08/16/104269_1.jpg)

Quote from: Cain on August 16, 2011, 12:49:18 PM
Really?  I hadn't heard that.

I had heard from a copper down in Tottenham that he had been beating people so hard he broke his truncheon in half, though.  So I suspect it was not an issue.

I thought I heard it here, I must be mistaken then.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 16, 2011, 11:12:26 PM
As of 8 minutes ago, British police have curfew powers.

http://gulftoday.ae/portal/cb13b736-d1bb-4cd0-9424-00f61f3169eb.aspx

MIEN SIEG!
\
(http://gulftoday.ae/uploads/images/2011/08/16/104269_1.jpg)

Quote from above article.
"Five people died during violence that ravaged English cities last week, including three men hit by a car in Birmingham, central England as they protected local shops from looters"

That's less people than generally get killed by violence in Tottenham over 4 days alone, , let alone the eight or nine cities that went off over the same period. Therefore the rioters should be given a collective public commendation for saving lives in this creative and entertaining manner. 

Quote from: BadBeast on August 17, 2011, 04:20:48 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 16, 2011, 11:12:26 PM
As of 8 minutes ago, British police have curfew powers.

http://gulftoday.ae/portal/cb13b736-d1bb-4cd0-9424-00f61f3169eb.aspx

MIEN SIEG!
\
(http://gulftoday.ae/uploads/images/2011/08/16/104269_1.jpg)

Quote from above article.
"Five people died during violence that ravaged English cities last week, including three men hit by a car in Birmingham, central England as they protected local shops from looters"

That's less people than generally get killed by violence in Tottenham over 4 days alone, , let alone the eight or nine cities that went off over the same period. Therefore the rioters should be given a collective public commendation for saving lives in this creative and entertaining manner. 

Wow really? What's the usual rate?

Needs to be reworded into bite-sized media snack.

"Violent crime mortality rate drops X% during London Riots

LONDON -- blablablabla blabla blabla explanation bla"

Quote from: BadBeast on August 17, 2011, 04:20:48 AM

Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 16, 2011, 11:12:26 PM
As of 8 minutes ago, British police have curfew powers.

http://gulftoday.ae/portal/cb13b736-d1bb-4cd0-9424-00f61f3169eb.aspx

MIEN SIEG!
\
(http://gulftoday.ae/uploads/images/2011/08/16/104269_1.jpg)

Quote from above article.
"Five people died during violence that ravaged English cities last week, including three men hit by a car in Birmingham, central England as they protected local shops from looters"

That's less people than generally get killed by violence in Tottenham over 4 days alone, , let alone the eight or nine cities that went off over the same period. Therefore the rioters should be given a collective public commendation for saving lives in this creative and entertaining manner. 

At the original Woodstock Festival, a couple of people died from accidents.  This was made out to be another example of how hippies couldn't be allowed to have any fun.

Abbie Hoffman pointed out that they were the second-biggest city in New York State for four days, and only had 2 deaths, neither from violence.  Nobody listened, of course.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44171232/ns/technology_and_science-security/

QuoteIt emerged Tuesday that British judges and magistrates have been advised to ignore regular sentencing guidelines and mete out harsher punishments when dealing with those found guilty of rioting.

Also, at the link, one Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, has been sentenced to 4 years for making a joke about the riots on Facebook.

I told you guys.  We're basically East Germany, with (ir)regular elections.

Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 17, 2011, 02:45:13 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44171232/ns/technology_and_science-security/

QuoteIt emerged Tuesday that British judges and magistrates have been advised to ignore regular sentencing guidelines and mete out harsher punishments when dealing with those found guilty of rioting.

Also, at the link, one Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, has been sentenced to 4 years for making a joke about the riots on Facebook.

Quote from: Cain on August 17, 2011, 03:41:30 PM
I told you guys.  We're basically East Germany, with (ir)regular elections.

Looking more like Amerkinz^(TM) every day. :x

No time to listen. Must work out how to implement a more robust response to those who would spread their moral decay upon the rest of us. Considered the Army, but that's a little bit too "Arab Spring" for a cultured Nation like us. Must build moar Prisons. Must give the Police Water Cannons, and Taser shields. Spray the bastards down with high pressure supercooled brine, then send in the new Electric shock Troops. Five minutes of spraying them, then Zap the first rank of smelly anarchists with 35,000 volts, and the shock should go right through the whole sorry crowd. That should ruin any pleasure they might have had from those new 42 inch Plasmas they were on their way home with. Might even stop a significant number of them breeding any more, as the residual current earths itself via their fecund scrotums.

Sorry Dok, you were saying . . . . .?

Quote from: BadBeast on August 17, 2011, 04:11:49 PM
No time to listen. Must work out how to implement a more robust response to those who would spread their moral decay upon the rest of us. Considered the Army, but that's a little bit too "Arab Spring" for a cultured Nation like us. Must build moar Prisons. Must give the Police Water Cannons, and Taser shields. Spray the bastards down with high pressure supercooled brine, then send in the new Electric shock Troops. Five minutes of spraying them, then Zap the first rank of smelly anarchists with 35,000 volts, and the shock should go right through the whole sorry crowd. That should ruin any pleasure they might have had from those new 42 inch Plasmas they were on their way home with. Might even stop a significant number of them breeding any more, as the residual current earths itself via their fecund scrotums.

Sorry Dok, you were saying . . . . .?

Carry on.  You've got the hang of it.

Hang? Hanging is too good for these bastards!
NSFW  http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/caption0712NSFW_0.jpg

Almost.

Unemployment figures came out yesterday.  7.9%, across the country as a whole.  8.4% in Wales, 7.7% in Scotland.  20% of 16-24 year olds.

Are the riots over yet?

Those unemployment numbers are almost as bad as ours.

Pretty much, yes.

Well, they're almost as bad as your official ones.  Our method of counting is a little different though, yours tends to hide a lot more relevant data, as a rule (ours isn't perfect, but is more accurate than some methods).

Quote from: Triple Zero on August 16, 2011, 12:05:42 PM
for such we have the ME ("mobile unit"). I discussed with my friends that this must be the most important reason why we're not going to have such kinds of riots here. and I'm not really sure if it's a good reason.

they're like a cross between military, police, thugs and killer robots. except they don't really kill, just maim and flatten. the guys with the facemasks, body armour, big sticks, you know the type. except ours are fucking organized. all wearing an earpiece, they only work in units, they don't have names, their unit has a number. then they make a row, and close in somewhere--this is when most smart people GTFO--and perform a "charge". if it's a protest and idiots think "let's sit down so they can't move us" they'll pick them up and just fucking throw them away, everyone in the way is fair game, a charge is supposed to swipe the streets clean.
oh yeah and there's the horses. big huge fucking strong horses with blinders that are trained to STEP ON PEOPLE.
and they're thugs. big part of their ranks is hooligans that just find they enjoy hitting people so much they might as well join the winning side. if you happen to be on the wrong side of an ME line, you can still get out provided you look innocent enough, but expect to be bashed about as you talked the front guy into letting you through, the one behind him will think you broke their line and you'll be out of there in no time.

I may not describe it perfectly, and I don't know all their techniques, but they're very good and efficient at what they do, usually, when they arrive, whatever's going on is over within 20-30 minutes.

so I guess, as long as these guys are around, affecting change in NL is going to have to go through the more democratic and/or traditional channels :)

My personal (and very limited) experience with the ME is of polite and confident men.
My guess is that their extra training gives them the convidence to be relaxed in almost all situations. Meaning they are less inclined to use more violence than ordered to. Wether this means they are more or less dangerous depends on the situation.

Quote from: Regret on August 19, 2011, 06:07:35 PM
My personal (and very limited) experience with the ME is of polite and confident men.
My guess is that their extra training gives them the convidence to be relaxed in almost all situations. Meaning they are less inclined to use more violence than ordered to. Wether this means they are more or less dangerous depends on the situation.

Really? That's funny, cause I have a rather opposite experience. They weren't very nice. And I'm usually polite and try to radiate calmness which tends to have a positive effect on policemen--and I was surprised that the ME was really really grumpy. :)

Well, good thing that my impression of them isn't a general thing, apparently.

The confidence thing makes a lot of sense, though.

Another possibility is, perhaps their training is that good: If you're being really tough and voice or communicate an ever so slight hostility [and you're wearing armour and there's 50 buddies of yours], I'll be out of your way really fast. Additionally, I can imagine with you, they thought polite confidence would be more effective where slight hostility might provoke you (dunno how much you looked like a punk/whatever that day, so maybe I'm very wrong)

David Starkey has refused to apologize for his idiotic racism, while making more racist comments.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14601813

Quote"At the top, successful blacks, like (MPs) David Lammy and Diane Abbott have merged effortlessly into what continues to be a largely white elite...

"At the bottom of the heap, the story of integration is the opposite: it is the white lumpen proletariat, cruelly known as the 'chavs', who have integrated into the pervasive black 'gangsta' culture."

You see, he's not saying blacks are inherently violent  He's only saying black culture is inherently violent, and blacks who are not violent are so because they have successfully adapted to the civilizing influences of white culture.  And, naturally, the reverse is true, with whites adapting to the barbarized black culture.

You know, it strikes me there is a lot of projection in Whitey racism about blacks.  Chiefly, being afraid of blacks because they are violent and because they steal stuff.  Any objective view of history is going to suggest that white Europeans mastered the art of organized violence and theft on an international level (ie colonialism), so, uh, really, yeah. 

Starkey, of course, as a historian is well aware of this.  However his racism prevents him from actually recognising it.

I was on holiday while all this was going on, so I only got the chance to check the odd Guardian frontpage every now and again. While telling my family about these riots, my Granddad was cracking me up -- his first response to me telling everyone about what was happening was "Well, we should just shoot the lot of 'em." When I stopped laughing and told him that shooting people was one of the reasons WHY everyone was rioting, he resorted to the normal old person platitudes about how young people aren't disciplined enough these days. He also at one point said "I assume this is because of these gangs of blacks" and spent about fifteen minutes trying to tell me that the majority of riots are mostly giant organised conspiracies.

Also, thanks to everyone posting links and stuff ITT -- it's hard to keep abreast of stuff like this on crappy Spanish internet (especially when you have sun and a Kindle to distract you) but everything in here has been really informative and interesting!

Any Curly spottings?

Quote from: Cain on August 20, 2011, 10:48:58 PM

Quote"At the bottom of the heap, the story of integration is the opposite: it is the white lumpen proletariat, cruelly known as the 'chavs', who have integrated into the pervasive black 'gangsta' culture."

You see, he's not saying blacks are inherently violent  He's only saying black culture is inherently violent, and blacks who are not violent are so because they have successfully adapted to the civilizing influences of white culture.  And, naturally, the reverse is true, with whites adapting to the barbarized black culture.

You know, it strikes me there is a lot of projection in Whitey racism about blacks.  Chiefly, being afraid of blacks because they are violent and because they steal stuff.  Any objective view of history is going to suggest that white Europeans mastered the art of organized violence and theft on an international level (ie colonialism), so, uh, really, yeah. 

Starkey, of course, as a historian is well aware of this.  However his racism prevents him from actually recognising it.

... because those white chavs would be really upstanding well-mannered blokes, if only they didn't listen to that horrible subversive gangsta rap music!

Quote from: Triple Zero on August 22, 2011, 09:09:51 PM

Quote from: Cain on August 20, 2011, 10:48:58 PM

Quote"At the bottom of the heap, the story of integration is the opposite: it is the white lumpen proletariat, cruelly known as the 'chavs', who have integrated into the pervasive black 'gangsta' culture."

You see, he's not saying blacks are inherently violent  He's only saying black culture is inherently violent, and blacks who are not violent are so because they have successfully adapted to the civilizing influences of white culture.  And, naturally, the reverse is true, with whites adapting to the barbarized black culture.

You know, it strikes me there is a lot of projection in Whitey racism about blacks.  Chiefly, being afraid of blacks because they are violent and because they steal stuff.  Any objective view of history is going to suggest that white Europeans mastered the art of organized violence and theft on an international level (ie colonialism), so, uh, really, yeah. 

Starkey, of course, as a historian is well aware of this.  However his racism prevents him from actually recognising it.

... because those white chavs would be really upstanding well-mannered blokes, if only they didn't listen to that horrible subversive gangsta rap music!

:argh!: How dare you! Some of my best friends are subversives!

I think your friends should go back home to Subversia. And if you like them so much, go with them to Subversistan!

They've been exiled from the old Country, for generations, so they had to live in Seditia for years!  But you can't be expected know that, coming from a Low Country like Perversia, or 'Ho Land', as we call it!

:lulz:

Government is still banging on about how "gang culture" is responsible for the riots.

Meanwhile, this is the best piece of writing on the riots, bar none:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/ryan-gallagher/wilful-ignorance-media-journalism-riots-tony-evans

Quote... The presenter turned to Kelvin Mackenzie and said to him, "don't you think we should try to understand these riots?"

He said, "no I don't think we should". And there we have it. The lack of understanding; the wilful ignorance. To try and come to terms with what's caused this trouble in our society and this alienation where one large section of society just doesn't want to think about the people who are involved in it [the rioting]. And wants to write them off, criminalise them, and put them in to a sort of box where they don't have to be thought about.

I think that is what has characterised the coverage of the riots. I think it has been a particularly grim period for journalism. It was led that way, in many ways, in the initial outburst of violence by the 24hr rolling news.

I found it staggering, the way news presenters were editorialising. They were showing film of what was going on in Tottenham, and they were saying: "there is no political element to this, this is just vandalism, this is just people looting" ... without any sense of what the background to this was. Without any attempt to put it in its context.

We saw Sky News reporters walking down the streets, filming people on their phones and saying, "I come from round here, I can't believe what I'm seeing, are you proud of yourself?" As if they were headmasters.

That's not journalism. Journalism should be the pursuit of the truth and the pursuit of knowledge. And we weren't seeing knowledge there. We were getting the vicarious thrills of being in the middle of a riot. The Daily Mail's view? "Give this man an award". I don't think it's award-winning journalism personally – because it told me nothing.

It told me nothing because I've been in a riot. I've fought with policemen. I've kicked in shop windows. I've stole from shops. Alot of people haven't, but I have. And I understand the frustrations that come from being in that underclass, where you're written off, where you're given no opportunities. And you're demonised. You're demonised by the media and you're demonised by the political system. It was 30 years ago, but I felt the same way they [the rioters] did.

The way the media was quick to put it all down to a sense of consumerism. "They've all got Blackberrys". Well, a Blackberry doesn't cost very much actually. But I'll tell you what – what alot of the kids who where there [rioting] don't have is expectations. The poverty of expectation, the poverty of belief in what you can do with your life...

But of course, the newspapers were more concerned with taking the opposite view. The Daily Express – the headline – "Flaming Morons". Which says to you: these people don't deserve to be treated well, they don't deserve to be regarded as human beings. And all through that whole week of rioting... the narrative was all about that. It was all about criminality. It's all about not being able to explain, about not being able to understand. As if this came all out of the blue and surprised us.

This has been building for four or five years. And the only people who appear to be surprised about it are journalists and politicians. So we have this situation where the government now is allowed to move the dialogue on and suddenly blame gangs. And the newspapers are rushing to report this, and agree with it.

In every time of economic turmoil, where poverty is building, there have been riots over the years. There has also been the instinctive urge to blame gangs. It goes back to the 1870s and the 1880s and the High Rip [gang] in Liverpool. So they [gangs] are easy targets.

And what it does: you don't need to get beyond the surface, you can just point fingers. And this is what's disappointed me from the newspapers especially in the last few weeks.

I can understand the superficiality of television. But you know, I can't understand that newspapers, where you've got time, you've got the chance to talk to people, the anonymity that's guaranteed in print, that no one's gone out to talk to the people who were doing this, who were out there.

... Sky News ran a piece with four kids, where they discussed the reason that they rioted. And they were very articulate about it. They talked about how they had attempted to fit in to normal society, but had been turned back at every turn. You know, it's easy to understand. But again, that piece was undermined by the payoff, which talked about criminal behaviour. If this was about criminal behaviour, if this was about violence, if this was just about feral kids running out of control, we'd see it every weekend.

We saw spontaneous outbursts of it because this society's mantra is "there is no society". Why would you expect these kids to care about people around them?

And yet, there was no sense of blaming the politicians for this environment that they've created. It's all about punishment. It's all about victimisation, it's all about marginalising people who've got the least voice. That's what's really disappointed me. And I don't see it getting any better.

Unfortunately I don't think there's a will to understand in this country. And I also think there is an instinctive fear in some journalists – quite alot of them – to actually confront the preconceptions of the mass of the British public.

This is a time when journalism has been trusted probably about as little as it's ever been trusted. And what people don't want to do is say to the people who say "they're louts, send them to the army, hang them, shoot them", no, you're wrong, think about it. It's easier to go along with public perceptions...

But that's not our role. Our role is to come up with the truth. And I don't believe we've got to the truth in the last few weeks.

This is the football news editor at the Times, I should point out.  And he just schooled the vast majority of the British media.

lolz

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14834827

QuoteHome Secretary Theresa May has told MPs that it appeared that the "majority of people" involved in the riots were not in gangs.

She told MPs that as arrests had continued, the percentage involved in gangs had dropped.

But there was "some evidence" gangs were involved in inciting rioting on social media, she said.

More than 2,700 people were arrested after violence and looting spread from London to other English cities.

Gangs got much of the blame for the spread of disorder - Prime Minister David Cameron promised a "concerted, all out war on gangs and gang culture", a gangs task force has been set up and former police chief of Los Angeles and New York Bill Bratton is to advise the government on the issue.
Criminality

Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith - who is part of a government taskforce looking at gangs - has warned Britain is in the "last chance saloon" and told the Spectator last month there was "pretty good evidence" gangs were at the centre of the riots.

Mrs May said the Metropolitan Police and other forces were looking at the number of people arrested with known gang affiliations - the percentage of which had fallen over time, as more people were arrested. About 25% of those arrested were juveniles, she said.

"On current evidence it would seem that the majority of people involved were not individuals who've been involved in gangs, although obviously a number of people involved were involved in gangs.

"But there is some evidence that obviously there was some gang activity taking place in terms of encouraging people to take part in these events and as we saw, some of that encouragement was being propagated on social media."

She said it was clear "criminality" underlay the riots - as about three quarters of those arrested so far, had some form of criminal record. Arrests were expected to continue for some time, she said - and as a result the picture of who was involved would keep changing.

The home secretary is involved in a cross-departmental group looking into gang issues. She said she would be hosting an international conference in October, "looking at other countries that have gang problems" - such as the US - but also at examples of work in London and Strathclyde, seen as a success story in tackling gang culture, and wanted to ensure that "what works" was put into practice.

Asked whether gangs posed a threat to the 2012 Olympics being held in London - she said security planning had always considered the threat of public disorder, but they had looked at "whether there is anything we need to learn from the riots and policing the riots".

Government rhetoric owned by facts and reality yet again

Great article, too bad it will get swept away in the rush of the other reporters defending themselves.

I need to send that to some people on my FB list who bought into the rhetoric.

Quote from: Cain on September 08, 2011, 01:51:48 PM
Government is still banging on about how "gang culture" is responsible for the riots.

Meanwhile, this is the best piece of writing on the riots, bar none:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/ryan-gallagher/wilful-ignorance-media-journalism-riots-tony-evans

excellent find! sharing

QuoteHome Secretary Theresa May has told MPs that it appeared that the "majority of people" involved in the riots were not ginger.

She told MPs that as arrests had continued, the percentage of gingers had dropped.

But there was "some evidence" gingers were involved in inciting rioting on social media, she said.

More than 2,700 people were arrested after violence and looting spread from London to other English cities.

Gangs got much of the blame for the spread of disorder - Prime Minister David Cameron promised a "concerted, all out war on gingers and ginger culture", a gingers task force has been set up and former police chief of Los Angeles and New York Bill Bratton is to advise the government on the issue.

Carrot Heads

Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith - who is part of a government taskforce looking at gingers - has warned Britain is in the "last chance saloon" and told the Spectator last month there was "pretty good evidence" gingers were at the centre of the riots.

Mrs May said the Metropolitan Police and other forces were looking at the number of people arrested with known ginger affiliations - the percentage of which had fallen over time, as more people were arrested. About 25% of those arrested were juveniles, she said.

"On current evidence it would seem that the majority of people involved were not gingers, although obviously a number of people involved were gingers.

"But there is some evidence that obviously there was some ginger activity taking place in terms of encouraging people to take part in these events and as we saw, some of that encouragement was being propagated on social media."

She said it was clear "carrot-ivity" underlay the riots - as about three quarters of those arrested so far, had eaten some form of carrots. Arrests were expected to continue for some time, she said - and as a result the picture of who was involved would keep changing.

The home secretary is involved in a cross-departmental group looking into ginger issues. She said she would be hosting an international conference in October, "looking at other countries that have ginger problems" - such as the US - but also at examples of work in London and Strathclyde, seen as a success story in tackling ginger culture, and wanted to ensure that "what works" was put into practice.

Asked whether gingers posed a threat to the 2012 Olympics being held in London - she said security planning had always considered the threat of public disorder, but they had looked at "whether there is anything we need to learn from the riots and policing the riots".

"On current evidence it would seem that the majority of people involved were not left-handed individuals, although obviously a number of people involved were left-handed. "

Trip, I'd like to reuse this and share.

Well it wasn't mine to begin with, so go for it :lol:

Uh oh, stats are out

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15426720

QuoteThe most comprehensive statistics published so far on the August riots in England show that those who took part were poorer, younger and of lower educational achievement than average.

Some 90% of those brought before the courts were male, and only 5% were over the age of 40.

The government figures show a quarter were juveniles - aged 10-17 - and a similar proportion were aged 18-20.

Of those arrested, 13% were identified as gang members.

Even in London, where gang membership among those arrested was highest, the figure was less than one in five.

Some 35% of adults brought before courts were claiming out-of-work benefits, which compares to a national average of 12%.

Of the young people involved, 42% were in receipt of free school meals compared to an average of 16%.
Ethnic background

A government spokesman said: "In terms of the role gangs played in the disorder, most forces perceived that where gang members were involved, they generally did not play a pivotal role."

Two-thirds of the young people in court were classed as having some form of special educational need. This compares to 21% for the national average.

Three-quarters of all those who appeared in court had a previous conviction or caution. For adults the figure was 80% and for juveniles it was 62%.

In terms of ethnicity, 40% of those arrested were white, 39% black, 11% of mixed background, 8% Asian and 2% were classified as "other".

Ethnic background ranged geographically from 77% white in Manchester to 32% white in London, and from 47% black in London to 11% black in Hertfordshire.

Does that sound about right, or are they trying to put some kind of spin on it?

Sounds to me as if it flies in the face of the spin the right was putting on it; i.e. it was all gangs and minorities.  Or something like that. 

So that's good, then?  Nutcases get shown that they're full of shit or something?

I think the Media are playing the down the "Gang" connection. Also, on the news, it just said that a significant number opf defendents had come from abroad, specifically for the occasion. Which makes me think Call me Dave is lying about the amount of illegal immigrants apprehended.
It's not like he doesn't have a vested interest in playing down the prevalence of Inner City Gangs, or illegal immigrants, and he's a Tory, and they can't pass on any opportunity to scrub the shit from any of their their ''sensitive issues''.

I may be repeating what has been said a million times before, but when you are trying to fight a bad situation i.e. 'too many gangs' wouldn't the best course of action be to look at a similar country with less gangs and copy their behaviour?
Trying to be more like the countries with the highest gang-activity may not be the smartest move here.

Quote from: Regret on October 29, 2011, 08:52:31 AM
I may be repeating what has been said a million times before, but when you are trying to fight a bad situation i.e. 'too many gangs' wouldn't the best course of action be to look at a similar country with less gangs and copy their behaviour?
Trying to be more like the countries with the highest gang-activity may not be the smartest move here.

STOP, WITH YOUR LOGIC AND YOUR SENSE.

Quote from: Regret on October 29, 2011, 08:52:31 AM
I may be repeating what has been said a million times before, but when you are trying to fight a bad situation i.e. 'too many gangs' wouldn't the best course of action be to look at a similar country with less gangs and copy their behaviour?
Trying to be more like the countries with the highest gang-activity may not be the smartest move here.

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/OCCUPY%20ETC/DRE.jpg)

Quote from: BadBeast on October 31, 2011, 04:52:03 AM

Quote from: Regret on October 29, 2011, 08:52:31 AM
I may be repeating what has been said a million times before, but when you are trying to fight a bad situation i.e. 'too many gangs' wouldn't the best course of action be to look at a similar country with less gangs and copy their behaviour?
Trying to be more like the countries with the highest gang-activity may not be the smartest move here.

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/OCCUPY%20ETC/DRE.jpg)

(http://www.trulygraphics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/so-sorry-to-hear-your-news.jpg)