Maybe someone can explain to me either how it's going to work or why I'm wrong cos I been scratching my head for a few days now.
Okay so we have a bunch of rich, bent cunts sucking the marrow out of the bones of civilisation. To all intents and purposes it would appear they are committed to bleeding every last drop. If that's the case then what happens next? The way I see it the whole concept of economic currency is on the verge of becoming meaningless. Capitalism is in freefall, pretty soon the banks will all collapse and probably drag the countries and governments down with them, right?
So what do the tubes behind this think will happen next? Do they have a plan or is it a case of sawing off the branch they're sitting on. Right now they rely on the law to prevent people like me from smashing their skulls in and taking their shit and, trust me, for the ones right at the top of the pile the only thing that prevents me from doing just that is the risk of being thrown in jail.
So what happens when there's no cops to arrest me and no jails to throw me in? You have to pay cops. When there's not enough money left to do that what happens? Do they reinvent the barter economy and give the coppers sides of beef instead of pounds and pence? Is there something I'm missing? Maybe the global economy is somehow going to actually survive?
I'm looking forward to an insanely violent lulzfest - when do I get it? :argh!:
They're trying to kill off a fuckload of us with the wars and crappy food and environmental toxins, but that doesn't get everybody. This could get interesting.
I think the bitter truth is that they haven't looked past making their next dollar.
"they" "them" "us"
what the hell's going on in this thread?
:tinfoilhat:
I swear if someone mentions flouride and chem trails I'll start bleeding from my ears.
Hawk is right, in that what he said has to apply to a certain percentage of people on the planet, but that type of personality isn't exclusive to people with lots of money.
So who's this "they"? Bond type ultra-rich super villans bent on erradicating poor people so they can have the planet to themselves?
Lex Luthor types who look at people without 7 figure salaries as a plague that should be exterminated?
What, as I asked before, the hell is going ON ITT?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on September 07, 2011, 02:29:04 PM
"they" "them" "us"
what the hell's going on in this thread?
:tinfoilhat:
I swear if someone mentions flouride and chem trails I'll start bleeding from my ears.
Hawk is right, in that what he said has to apply to a certain percentage of people on the planet, but that type of personality isn't exclusive to people with lots of money.
So who's this "they"? Bond type ultra-rich super villans bent on erradicating poor people so they can have the planet to themselves?
Lex Luthor types who look at people without 7 figure salaries as a plague that should be exterminated?
What, as I asked before, the hell is going ON ITT?
Um, he spelled it out fairly clearly. And he is accurate.
Quote from: Hawk on September 07, 2011, 02:31:47 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on September 07, 2011, 02:29:04 PM
"they" "them" "us"
what the hell's going on in this thread?
:tinfoilhat:
I swear if someone mentions flouride and chem trails I'll start bleeding from my ears.
Hawk is right, in that what he said has to apply to a certain percentage of people on the planet, but that type of personality isn't exclusive to people with lots of money.
So who's this "they"? Bond type ultra-rich super villans bent on erradicating poor people so they can have the planet to themselves?
Lex Luthor types who look at people without 7 figure salaries as a plague that should be exterminated?
What, as I asked before, the hell is going ON ITT?
Um, he spelled it out fairly clearly. And he is accurate.
What he's predicting has been predicted over and over again, going back to other major banking crisis's throughout history.
The bad guys are always the same, and it's always bankers, politicians and lawyers.
But the collapses are getting progressively bigger, that is true. It's the nature of the beast.
But P3Nt's is predicting a true and total collapse of civilization into complete anarchy and I don't think he'll see anything like that in his lifetime.
You don't get out much, do you?
What happens next?
we all get poorer and learn to deal with it
Is there a plan?
No, there's no plan. The only plan is to maintain the status quo and de-legitimatize things that might challenge the status quo.
if you want a peek at the plan behind the curtain, check out this leaked citibank memo from 2005 (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=25129.0).
Quote from: Cramulus on September 07, 2011, 02:50:13 PM
What happens next?
we all get poorer and learn to deal with it
Is there a plan?
No, there's no plan. The only plan is to maintain the status quo and de-legitimatize things that might challenge the status quo.
if you want a peek at the plan behind the curtain, check out this leaked citibank memo from 2005 (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=25129.0).
This.
Also, check out the history of Peru, or Prussia, or pre-Franco Spain. A largely decadent, unproductive overclass using the state to advance monopoly interests, while everyone else slowly loses out, not being in on the inside deals.
That's basically the future, only we'll have tasers and the internet.
I have few doubts left that many of us here will be alive to see the collapse of civilization as we know it.
The writing has been on the wall for years, all humanity has done is try to make it say what they want it to say rather than reading what it actually does say.
sauce is gone on that link.
ok, let's say you could take every penny from the top 1% in the world and distribute it evenly to everyone. Now that top %1 is dirt poor, they have nothing.
What does that accomplish except moving new and more people into the "top 1%"
Should there, in your mind, even be an institutionalized penalty and reward system for risking something (for simplicity, we'll just say capital) against the success or failure of an idea or product?
:?
Who said anything about taking every penny from the top 1%?
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2011, 02:56:58 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on September 07, 2011, 02:50:13 PM
What happens next?
we all get poorer and learn to deal with it
Is there a plan?
No, there's no plan. The only plan is to maintain the status quo and de-legitimatize things that might challenge the status quo.
if you want a peek at the plan behind the curtain, check out this leaked citibank memo from 2005 (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=25129.0).
This.
Also, check out the history of Peru, or Prussia, or pre-Franco Spain. A largely decadent, unproductive overclass using the state to advance monopoly interests, while everyone else slowly loses out, not being in on the inside deals.
That's basically the future, only we'll have tasers and the internet.
If it was basically the past, then it stands to reason it will happen again, sure. We're nothing if not consistent in repeating our mistakes, and our collective memory is basically non-existent.
But other than scale, how does this differ from any time it's happened before?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on September 07, 2011, 02:59:02 PM
sauce is gone on that link.
Huh. weird. Scribd tells me "This content was removed at the request of Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP"... a firm specializing in IP law. Hilarious! And then further googling indicates that my scribd link was actually the top hit for the document.
No matter - once you put something on the internet, you can't take it back off. Like taking pee back out of a pool. Here's another copy.
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BzgUudifBc68ZGUyNzA0MzAtZDZkZC00ZmZjLTkwY2ItNzBlZWRmNjI1ZTNm&hl=en
DP, I think you're muddying the waters here.
What I see as a main problem is that the top 1% has no new ideas, makes no product, and risks incredibly little. The main earners of capital do so by manipulating game rules, not through "making" things.
Quote from: Hawk on September 07, 2011, 03:02:02 PM
:?
Who said anything about taking every penny from the top 1%?
Crossover from the link Cram posted that talks about what the top %1 think of everyone else, but the sauce is gone on the doc. No one said it, I asked as a "what if" sort of thing.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on September 07, 2011, 03:02:42 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2011, 02:56:58 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on September 07, 2011, 02:50:13 PM
What happens next?
we all get poorer and learn to deal with it
Is there a plan?
No, there's no plan. The only plan is to maintain the status quo and de-legitimatize things that might challenge the status quo.
if you want a peek at the plan behind the curtain, check out this leaked citibank memo from 2005 (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=25129.0).
This.
Also, check out the history of Peru, or Prussia, or pre-Franco Spain. A largely decadent, unproductive overclass using the state to advance monopoly interests, while everyone else slowly loses out, not being in on the inside deals.
That's basically the future, only we'll have tasers and the internet.
If it was basically the past, then it stands to reason it will happen again, sure. We're nothing if not consistent in repeating our mistakes, and our collective memory is basically non-existent.
But other than scale, how does this differ from any time it's happened before?
Because we are now truly a global economy. The dollar is in very real danger of being replaced as the world currency. One more little snit fit from Congress like the last debt ceiling nonsense could easily be the final catalyst that forces such a move.
U.S. bonds are rapidly losing their attractiveness as an investment due to the suffocating debt we have piled up.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on September 07, 2011, 03:06:16 PM
Quote from: Hawk on September 07, 2011, 03:02:02 PM
:?
Who said anything about taking every penny from the top 1%?
Crossover from the link Cram posted that talks about what the top %1 think of everyone else, but the sauce is gone on the doc. No one said it, I asked as a "what if" sort of thing.
I see, let's leave the goalposts in one place for a while though.
wow, I tried to re-upload the PDF and scribd won't let me -
QuoteThe document "Citibank Memo" has been automatically removed from Scribd by our automated copyright protection system because it appears very similar to an unauthorized copyrighted document that was previously removed from Scribd.
Like all automated text-matching systems, ours sometimes makes mistakes. If you believe this document is not infringing and was removed in error, please contact copyright@scribd.com
fucking WOW :lulz:
well just to be 200% redundant, here's ANOTHER copy of it http://ifile.it/zt7x6ir/cb.pdf
Quote from: Disco Pickle on September 07, 2011, 02:59:02 PM
sauce is gone on that link.
ok, let's say you could take every penny from the top 1% in the world and distribute it evenly to everyone. Now that top %1 is dirt poor, they have nothing.
What does that accomplish except moving new and more people into the "top 1%"
Should there, in your mind, even be an institutionalized penalty and reward system for risking something (for simplicity, we'll just say capital) against the success or failure of an idea or product?
Except no-one's saying that.
The memo in question (which is freely available all over the net) is talking about the political power the 1% wields. I doubt redistributing their wealth would form any kind of long term solution, though watching them freak out would be very funny and somewhat amusing.
It basically comes down to this: is it better to live in a democracy, or in plutocratic corporatist state (and I'm using corporatist in its classic definition here)? When asked, most people seem to say the former, yet we actually live in the latter. Allowing 1% of the income bracket to dominate the political decision-making leads to a number of warped, ineffective and outright wrong policy preferences being favoured, and that's true no matter which 1% it is, top or bottom.
The last couple of decades have shown that plutocratic corporatist states seem to have very little regard for the long term consequences of their actions, are contemptous of public opinion, engage in quasi-police state tactics and engage in wealth transfers which favour select insiders and impoverish everyone else. A democratic polity would probably contain the worst of those excesses, since the fallout from them falls disproportionately on those outside of the key decision-making demographics.
That's what the memo is about, and the problem it outlines.
Hawk, I think DP may be saying (and I happen to agree) that while this decline is indeed probable, I don't think it will lead to anarchy, apocalypse, et al -- There will probably be increased crime, the standard looting or riot during rolling blackouts, but not a Road Warrior scenario.
Basically, I see the entire country as being NYC circa 1977.
All that said, I'm still up for a program which involves stringing up Goldman Sachs chief executives from lamp posts.
I wanna see if they actually know where the safety on their glocks are.
I'd like to point out that no social collapse since the fall of the Roman Empire has led to a long-term decline in key indictators of health, education, energy consumption and other similar factors on a global or even continental level.
Sometimes they dip down for a few decades, but the overall progression is in an upwards direction.
In this article, an investment manager who works with the top 1% tells us all about them
http://ampedstatus.org/who-rules-america-an-investment-manager-breaks-down-the-economic-top-1-says-0-1-controls-political-and-legislative-process/
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 07, 2011, 03:06:00 PM
DP, I think you're muddying the waters here.
What I see as a main problem is that the top 1% has no new ideas, makes no product, and risks incredibly little. The main earners of capital do so by manipulating game rules, not through "making" things.
So it's them, and their enablers, and their bought governments, and anyone else on their payroll. The biggest problem I saw, the change that really made this crisis bad, other than it's scale, was the removal of the moral hazard that would have seen many very rich people out on their ass had the rules not been changed to allow them a "win/win" scenario.
This Vanity Fair article from 2008 by Christopher Hitchens: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/10/hitchens200810
is probably STILL one of the best I've read talking about where we are headed.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 07, 2011, 03:12:58 PM
Hawk, I think DP may be saying (and I happen to agree) that while this decline is indeed probable, I don't think it will lead to anarchy, apocalypse, et al -- There will probably be increased crime, the standard looting or riot during rolling blackouts, but not a Road Warrior scenario.
Basically, I see the entire country as being NYC circa 1977.
Sure, I can see that. It's a good thing to remember that when people get hungry they tend to also get agitated. When Americans can no longer afford cable tv, internet or trips to McDonalds they will likely get pretty pissed.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 07, 2011, 03:12:58 PM
Hawk, I think DP may be saying (and I happen to agree) that while this decline is indeed probable, I don't think it will lead to anarchy, apocalypse, et al -- There will probably be increased crime, the standard looting or riot during rolling blackouts, but not a Road Warrior scenario.
Basically, I see the entire country as being NYC circa 1977.
Basically exactly what I picture. NYC right in the middle of the 70's recession and coke/crack epidemic.
I don't think we're going to see Road Warrior days, at least most of us over 30. I do however think we will see a period of martial law at some point in the next 3-7 years if not sooner.
There is no real cure at this point, we can patch the leaks and pray but the dam is going to burst and there isn't a whole hell of a lot we can do about it.
The top 1% has run this planet into the ground and they have been doing so for a very long time. Now it is coming to light that the allmighty dollar isn't worth the paper it's printed on if there is no food, fuel or shelter. That is what is going to destroy us.
When Hitchens is good, he's very good. Unfortunately he's been mostly terrible since 2001, but that looks like a pretty good article. I still miss 1980s neocon-bashing Hitch, though :sad:
This, incidentally, is a very good point, and one I continually make:
QuoteI was very struck, as the liquefaction of a fantasy-based system proceeded, to read an observation by Professor Jeffrey A. Sonnenfeld, of the Yale School of Management. Referring to those who had demanded—successfully—to be indemnified by the customers and clients whose trust they had betrayed, the professor phrased it like this:
These are people who want to be rewarded as if they were entrepreneurs. But they aren't. They didn't have anything at risk.
That's one of the things I find so hilarious about the Cult of the CEO. They're hired managers. They're not risking their money. They're risking
investors money. They're no more entrepreneurial than a logistics officer in any government agency.
I've been saying - we can't really change where the Machine is headed (unless we organize into larger groups).
So if you're not into Fighting The Good Fight (few people are, these days), the best way to prepare for the coming National 1976NYC zone is to build a little island where your friends and family can sustain themselves. And I don't mean a literal island - I mean you have to figure out how to flourish and support each other without any buying power. For us individuals, salvation is not going to come from the top of the pyramid. It's going to come from our communities and neighborhoods.
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2011, 03:15:04 PM
I'd like to point out that no social collapse since the fall of the Roman Empire has led to a long-term decline in key indictators of health, education, energy consumption and other similar factors on a global or even continental level.
Sometimes they dip down for a few decades, but the overall progression is in an upwards direction.
Agreed, but don't you think we are in a different era now, the entire globe is so united in things, especially economics. If the dollar were to collapse before being replaced with other currency as the world currency there would be horrific ripple effects worldwide. Sure, the worst by far would be within the US though.
Hell, life saving drugs are suffering shortages here even now, because the bottom line doesn't show enough profit. Our education system has been so diluted and politically manipulated as to render it nearly useless, not to mention that recently it has become so short funded that it is a wonder it even functions at all.
Uh, these historical collapses I'm talking about include all of China being overrun by Genghis Khan's hordes, and the Black Death.
A currency collapse simply cannot compare. Create a new currency, adjust economic incentives and expectations accordingly and carry on.
Sure, it'll probably result in assassinations, coups, strikes, riots and maybe a few instances of intra-state war. But it won't be Mad Max. Life will go on.
Quote from: Cramulus on September 07, 2011, 03:26:50 PM
I've been saying - we can't really change where the Machine is headed (unless we organize into larger groups).
So if you're not into Fighting The Good Fight (few people are, these days), the best way to prepare for the coming National 1976NYC zone is to build a little island where your friends and family can sustain themselves. And I don't mean a literal island - I mean you have to figure out how to flourish and support each other without any buying power. For us individuals, salvation is not going to come from the top of the pyramid. It's going to come from our communities and neighborhoods.
I see where you're going with this, Cram -- Smart people will begin to build community networks and neighborhood support groups. The rampant isolation and individualism we see today will have to take a back seat to working together IRL to get by.
State doesn't like people trying to opt-out. More than a few such groups get infiltrated by the likes of the FBI etc who then use the usual tactics to spread dissension and mistrust throughout the ranks.
When you're opting out, you're actually making a very powerful and potentially dangerous political statement. Just saying.
Well, I was thinking more practically -- Carpooling, families pooling their money to buy in bulk at Costco, neighborhood crimewatch, block parties, looking after Mrs Jones' kids while she's at her day job, etc.
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2011, 03:34:17 PM
Uh, these historical collapses I'm talking about include all of China being overrun by Genghis Khan's hordes, and the Black Death.
A currency collapse simply cannot compare. Create a new currency, adjust economic incentives and expectations accordingly and carry on.
Sure, it'll probably result in assassinations, coups, strikes, riots and maybe a few instances of intra-state war. But it won't be Mad Max. Life will go on.
I agree it will be nothing resembling Mad Max. I could see states citing a failed Fed and declaring independence and seceding from the Union. I don't see that as a bad thing either.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 07, 2011, 03:43:08 PM
Well, I was thinking more practically -- Carpooling, families pooling their money to buy in bulk at Costco, neighborhood crimewatch, block parties, looking after Mrs Jones' kids while she's at her day job, etc.
I assumed Cram was talking more along the lines of John Robb's sustainable communities.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 07, 2011, 03:36:14 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on September 07, 2011, 03:26:50 PM
I've been saying - we can't really change where the Machine is headed (unless we organize into larger groups).
So if you're not into Fighting The Good Fight (few people are, these days), the best way to prepare for the coming National 1976NYC zone is to build a little island where your friends and family can sustain themselves. And I don't mean a literal island - I mean you have to figure out how to flourish and support each other without any buying power. For us individuals, salvation is not going to come from the top of the pyramid. It's going to come from our communities and neighborhoods.
I see where you're going with this, Cram -- Smart people will begin to build community networks and neighborhood support groups. The rampant isolation and individualism we see today will have to take a back seat to working together IRL to get by.
I know a guy who's said things like this for as long as I've known him and before, going back to before I was born. He's even helped build just such a small, self contained support group with plans on exactly where they go and how they survive in just such a situation.
I always thought the idea was a little far fetched but what he's basically described is an Israeli Kibbutz type of small, close knit community.
I'm sure a lot of good could come out of that bolded bit, LMNO.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 07, 2011, 03:43:08 PM
Well, I was thinking more practically -- Carpooling, families pooling their money to buy in bulk at Costco, neighborhood crimewatch, block parties, looking after Mrs Jones' kids while she's at her day job, etc.
We have a lady here, she lives right behind me. She watches kids, dogs, etc all the time to help out. She was turned in for running an illegal daycare and had to jump through hoops just to watch kids irregularly to help others. The bunch at the office are always on her for having so many dogs in her yard.
Sadly, I fear this will always be the case.
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2011, 03:45:38 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 07, 2011, 03:43:08 PM
Well, I was thinking more practically -- Carpooling, families pooling their money to buy in bulk at Costco, neighborhood crimewatch, block parties, looking after Mrs Jones' kids while she's at her day job, etc.
I assumed Cram was talking more along the lines of John Robb's sustainable communities.
Ah. Yeah, if that's what he's talking about, he should wear Kevlar. On his head.
LMNO
-insert clever quip about Ruby Ridge here.
yeah I don't mean forming some kind of subnation or legal structure.
I mean like --- I live upstairs from a chinese food place. There are like two or three families of chinese people living in that building. They bought the lot behind their restaurant and started a serious-ass farm there. They've only got like 1/4th of an acre but they use every square inch of it.
When I was living in Yonkers, I was dirt poor and frustrated all the time. (http://s209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/whatever/) I couldn't stop thinking about how grim the future looked, how I was the butt end of some horrible capitalist nightmare. And it bugged me out like nothing else how the poorest people I knew were also the ones most direly hooked on money and capitalism. This one guy I hung out with could barely afford to buy a six pack of beer on payday. Poor as shit and it made him miserable. And all he ever talked about was money and striking it rich. He was 32, a real hard worker, and was actually poorer than he was in college... and it made him disgusted with himself. It was an awful cycle.
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/whatever/roflbot-DF69.jpg)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/whatever/roflbot-IM1U.jpg)
What kept me afloat during this time was a network of friends who were also poor but did not give a shit. Us unemployed cats would get together on a Friday afternoon and go for a walk in the woods. We'd have picnics, or just talk about shit. We'd leave surreal notes in chalk for others to find. For me, it was a way of buoying myself in a world that was not focused on money or output. At the time, I felt like there was little I could do to improve my financial situation -- so you've just gotta figure out how to be happy with what you've got.
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/whatever/roflbot-LoRP.jpg)
Communities are the key... we owe it to our neighbors to not live like we're rats hitting a feeder bar. Even if we can't make a difference, we can create at atmosphere where it's possible to make a difference.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 07, 2011, 03:43:08 PM
Well, I was thinking more practically -- Carpooling, families pooling their money to buy in bulk at Costco, neighborhood crimewatch, block parties, looking after Mrs Jones' kids while she's at her day job, etc.
Though, that said, if this is done via Facebook, you can bet
someone will be watching it. The lengths at which private intelligence agecies to go in order to discover sedition and terrorism never cease to amaze me.
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2011, 03:58:09 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 07, 2011, 03:43:08 PM
Well, I was thinking more practically -- Carpooling, families pooling their money to buy in bulk at Costco, neighborhood crimewatch, block parties, looking after Mrs Jones' kids while she's at her day job, etc.
Though, that said, if this is done via Facebook, you can bet someone will be watching it. The lengths at which private intelligence agecies to go in order to discover sedition and terrorism never cease to amaze me.
Yeah, those people need to know their place and stay in it. :lulz:
Might be a damn good facebook troll, just to waste their time.
I agree, the survellience state has gotten exceptionally intrusive, much more so than in the 70s. However, if we're postulating severe lack of funds for public services, that may include local law enforcement, who will most likely be focusing their attention on violence and theft, rather than Sunday potluck dinners with your neighbors.
There's only a severe lack of funds for those not part of the insider jet-set.
Who owns all these private intelligence companies? Well, let's just recall that HBGary were being bankrolled by the Chamber of Commerce...
It sounds like you're saying the only way to avoid this is to make the jump across the income gap. It's a good thing I work for The Man™, then.
Not the only way.
But promoting a democratic civic culture while disassembling the power of the plutocratic corporatist elite without the whole thing turning to violent radicalism is definitely a lot harder.
I've been wondering... Do you have any historical examples of a Plutocracy being taken down in any manner other than violent uprising?
Solon, classical Athens.
If Warren Buffet was able to convince a bunch of billionaires to start acting ethically, do you think that would make a dent?
It probably wouldn't hurt. But the real change needs to happen on a political and social level. If people want a democracy, they're going to have to participate, they're going to have to compromise and they're going to have to stop looking to leaders to solve all their problems (psuedo-monarchist or theocratic sentiment at best) and start working for them themselves.
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2011, 04:31:27 PM
Solon, classical Athens.
Yikes. A brief google search doesn't seem to reveal anything we could adopt to today's culture.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on September 07, 2011, 02:29:04 PM
"they" "them" "us"
what the hell's going on in this thread?
:tinfoilhat:
I swear if someone mentions flouride and chem trails I'll start bleeding from my ears.
Hawk is right, in that what he said has to apply to a certain percentage of people on the planet, but that type of personality isn't exclusive to people with lots of money.
So who's this "they"? Bond type ultra-rich super villans bent on erradicating poor people so they can have the planet to themselves?
Lex Luthor types who look at people without 7 figure salaries as a plague that should be exterminated?
What, as I asked before, the hell is going ON ITT?
Well, then do I have a special treat for YUO!
http://www.ethericwarriors.com
This thread is super-interesting. Just wanted to say that.
What about education? And by that I mean general, solid education in math, science, history and possibly a bit of sociology/demographics/how does our government/country/society work. (And preferably "critical thinking", but that's probably too much to ask for).
I remember Cain saying education is one of the strongest indicators of / correlation with umm economic wellbeing, freedom, equality, happiness, something good (which one was it Cain? or just generally good for most things, I guess).
I recently read this article:
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2011/08/23/america-is-losing-another-generation-to-science-illiteracy/
Not sure if it was mentioned in that specific article or in the corresponding discussion on hackernews (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2960687), but apparently if you raise the bar just a tiny bit from "literacy" to "functional literacy", this meaning not just being barely able to read and write words and sentences, but testing for understanding, being able to do really simple things like reading a graph, reading two half-page essays and answering questions about differing opinions stated in them, reading a bus time chart, reading a map, looking things up in the phone book or yellow pages, answer questions using a chart, etc etc etc, it turns out that over 90% of US population is NOT "functionally literate" (at least that's what the research quoted in the hackernews thread said).
I was taught and tested for all these things in school. Were you?
[ BTW if you want to see an example of the survey questions, click here (http://nces.ed.gov/NAAL/sample_items.asp), click "Search" to get all questions, and click around to some random pages ]
I mean, we're all really smart here, but if you see people unwittingly voluntary performing a viral marketing campaign for Nestle, while honestly thinking they're raising breast cancer awareness (just a recent example), there's just no way, no fucking way those 90% are going to be able to sensibly form an informed opinion about what's going on in politics and policy making.
Related, my girlfriend is currently doing volunteer work for Humanitas where she's helping a Somalian refugee / asylum seeker integrate, especially concerning all the bureaucratic paperwork form stuff that a socialist (kinda/for now) society inevitably requires. He is illiterate. Though he knows the alphabet and can probably read words and partial sentences with considerable effort. He's not dumb or stupid though, he just was never taught that shit.
But last week my gf taught him to read a map of the city. Now the concept of "map", lines on a piece of paper corresponding to a real-life territory, is probably familiar to just about every culture on earth. But the part where the map has an index on the back, and you can look up a street in the alphabetical listing, and it says you can find your street in the square on the map with coordinates B3-C4.
Imagine if you don't know that, and you got a city map of Budapest [remember that Hungarian is a completely alien language only slightly related to Finnish and nothing else] and you're given a street address to meet later that day. And every street on the map is splleriuethtiky gae, vvnfrueoooonen bej, asssrpi cuntfukkwoehxbss bip ...
Sorry I digress. This thread is not about education and literacy. Please continue!
Holy shit! I wrote the OP this morning then got fucked up-busy at work. Lot to think about. What I was getting at was the fact that, historically speaking, it appears to me that the state* can only control the masses until the standard of living for those masses falls to a level that they refuse to accept, en-critical-masse. If this happens it's because they're not getting enough kickback from the state and it's generally something the state is doing wrong. Funding cuts at all levels from grass roots up, cause the whole structure to become weak, things like policing and healthcare all go to hell at the same time, making the state vulnerable to the very attack that these conditions are causing to muster.
It mostly seems to get violent around this point, although outcome varies from case to case. sometimes it's short, sweet and some form of status quo is re-imposed. Other times there's a change of leadership and the new state either gets accepted/helped by other states or it just kinda degenerates into mad-max, warlords and cartels. This isn't far-fetched, conspiracy theory or any shit like that. Have a look around. There are a fuckton of places where this has already happened. Places where the bodies pile up in the street, democracy takes a back seat to whichever form of jungle rule the meanest bastards left standing decide to impose.
Cain, you mentioned the fall of Rome. Prolly the last time we've seen an empire implode on that level. Personally I'm of the opinion that we might be somewhere near another event like that but I'm also very aware that it's just as likely we'll sorta bob up and down a lesser, variable amount for another while yet. Problem is, like Hawk points out, they don't seem to have thought much further than fleecing the thing for all they can get and it's going to take some kind of plan to get everything back on it's feet without all the ugly, heads on spikes shit.
*in this case I'm using "state" in slightly the wrong context, because I don't have a better word. What I mean by "state" is whomever should be making most of the political and governmental decisions, hoovering up wealth and gathering power.