Once upon a time. (That's how all stories are supposed to start, isn't it, children?) Once upon a time, there was a woman. Some say she was the first. Some say she was created by the gods as a punishment upon mankind. It si said that the gods loaded her down wight gifts, but nobody seems to know what most of those gifts were. Some say they were gifts to "seduce" men, but then, theo nes telling the story are mostly men, and hearing a man blame women for his own weakness is hardly anything new, is it? (Yeah, women do it, too, but how often do you hear that a MAN is the root of all evil in the world?)
Anyway, however she got it, this particular woman had one particular gift. It was given to her, but some asshat told her, "It's all yours, but, whatever you do, don't open the damn thing."
Yeah, like THAT was going to work out. Give any monkey a box, sooner or later, it's going to get opened. Tell that monkey NOT to open it, and the lid will be off the minute your back is turned.
(I know, you've heard the story. Shut up and listen, or fuck off.)
So, eventually, she opened it. She pulled the lid off the jar, or box, or whatever it was, and all the evils in the world flew out. The little ones were first. "Light" evil. Jaywalking in front of oncoming traffic and making you slam on the brakes. Talking in the movie theater. Giving away spoilers for the book you haven't read, yet. The petty shit that drives you buggy. Then bigger stuff, and bigger. By the time the woman got her shit together enough to slam the lid back on, some pretty big shit was out in the world. Rape, murder, the big guns.
Then she heard a voice from the box. It was beautiful, and begged for her to let it out, too. So, like any decent horror story, the stupid bimbo opened the box and let out the last thing.
According to the story, that last thing was "Hope." The story says it got shoved in the box to make all that evil bearable, sort of an apology, "Oops, we let her turn the world to shit, here, this will make it so you don't jump off the nearest bridge."
Bullshit.
Here's the truth. What settles to the bottom of a big box of evil isn't bright and shiny. Oh, it was hope, all right. It's that beautiful voice that whispers in your ear that everything is going to be fine and wonderful. You've heard it.
"Just work harder, you'll get that promotion you deserve, it won't go to the chick down the hall just because she's blowing the boss. She doesn't actually do any WORK around here..."
"Keep on buying those lottery tickets, sooner or later ONE of them will hit, and you can stop eating Ramen noodles."
"If you just have the house PERFECT, and don't say anything to make him angry, he won't hit you any more."
"Love him enough, love him HARD enough, and he'll feel the same way. Just keep trying, never mind anybody else."
You've heard it.
It's full of shit... And sometimes, it's the biggest fucking evil of them all.
fucking awesome stuff luna
Thanks, Pixie. I'm apparently in a mood.
Luna, you'll be pleased to know that there was no "Hope" in Pandora's Box. The word "hope" did not exist in the Ancient Greek vocabulary, and it's but there in modern translations to give the story some sort of moral.
The moral is that there is none. The Greeks were merely telling us that we're fucked forever, but the romantic Victorians wanted nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure the words that did fly out last were, in fact, "You are fucked forever." in Greek. Or something like that.
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2011, 10:24:10 PM
Luna, you'll be pleased to know that there was no "Hope" in Pandora's Box. The word "hope" did not exist in the Ancient Greek vocabulary, and it's but there in modern translations to give the story some sort of moral.
The moral is that there is none. The Greeks were merely telling us that we're fucked forever, but the romantic Victorians wanted nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure the words that did fly out last were, in fact, "You are fucked forever." in Greek. Or something like that.
I prefer Luna's version. Better edge
ETA: In fact, I hereby canonise it. And god bless all who sail in it!
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2011, 10:24:10 PM
Luna, you'll be pleased to know that there was no "Hope" in Pandora's Box. The word "hope" did not exist in the Ancient Greek vocabulary, and it's but there in modern translations to give the story some sort of moral.
The moral is that there is none. The Greeks were merely telling us that we're fucked forever, but the romantic Victorians wanted nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure the words that did fly out last were, in fact, "You are fucked forever." in Greek. Or something like that.
If I remember correctly, there is a Roman version in which "hope" is there.
But yeah, no hope in the Greek version.
There are a lot of versions of the story.
This one is mine.
But still, fuck hope.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 14, 2011, 10:26:52 PM
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2011, 10:24:10 PM
Luna, you'll be pleased to know that there was no "Hope" in Pandora's Box. The word "hope" did not exist in the Ancient Greek vocabulary, and it's but there in modern translations to give the story some sort of moral.
The moral is that there is none. The Greeks were merely telling us that we're fucked forever, but the romantic Victorians wanted nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure the words that did fly out last were, in fact, "You are fucked forever." in Greek. Or something like that.
I prefer Luna's version. Better edge
ETA: In fact, I hereby canonise it. And god bless all who sail in it!
Seconded.
Very nice, Luna. :) And yeah, I like the edge.
Quote from: Jenkem and SPACE/TIME on September 15, 2011, 12:29:46 AM
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2011, 11:19:07 PM
But still, fuck hope.
:kingmeh:
Preach that shit Freeky. As long as there is life there is hope. It may not come with a pretty pink ribbon around it, but in most cases life goes on. it is up to each of us to get from it what we may.
I don't put much stock in hope. I've had people call me an optimist, but I think it just comes down to trusting myself with being able to find a way to un-fuck a bad situation at least so my loved ones and I don't come out any worse for wear. I'm not "hoping for the best," I'm just fuckin' winging it and playing life and it's worked pretty fair so far.
Quote from: sotesla4 on September 15, 2011, 12:38:17 AM
I don't put much stock in hope. I've had people call me an optimist, but I think it just comes down to trusting myself with being able to find a way to un-fuck a bad situation at least so my loved ones and I don't come out any worse for wear. I'm not "hoping for the best," I'm just fuckin' winging it and playing life and it's worked pretty fair so far.
Of course. If I hope to win the lottery I at least need to buy a ticket, this ain't no christian prayer magick thread.
Quote from: Hawk on September 15, 2011, 12:31:31 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and SPACE/TIME on September 15, 2011, 12:29:46 AM
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2011, 11:19:07 PM
But still, fuck hope.
:kingmeh:
Preach that shit Freeky. As long as there is life there is hope. It may not come with a pretty pink ribbon around it, but in most cases life goes on. it is up to each of us to get from it what we may.
I may have to start a new thread for this idea, to keep from jacking Luna's thread (which the OP is stellar, btw), but even while we preach there really is no hope in The Church Of Tucson, we still have it. False hope, maybe, but on the days when the God-City ignores us, it doesn't seem so false, and in hope we find the strength to take another step, and another, and another, and soon enough there is momentum, which raises the bar of hope just a little more, and then our backs straighten a little more, and our steps are lighter, and our spirits lift more, and eventually we're driving down Oracle road at 70 MPH, Fire Down Below blaring out the speakers or in our heads and hearts, and shrieks of delight pierce the hot, blinding rain, while up on the roofrackf its the other guy's turn at sunroofing.
Eventually, that hope will be shattered. That is the God-City's will. But we never, ever, EVER say "fuck hope."*
*Unless it's the same circumstances as other people moaning "Never again..." on a Sunday morning. And what invariably happens to that "Never again"? :lulz:
Quote from: Jenkem and SPACE/TIME on September 15, 2011, 12:42:08 AM
Quote from: Hawk on September 15, 2011, 12:31:31 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and SPACE/TIME on September 15, 2011, 12:29:46 AM
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2011, 11:19:07 PM
But still, fuck hope.
:kingmeh:
Preach that shit Freeky. As long as there is life there is hope. It may not come with a pretty pink ribbon around it, but in most cases life goes on. it is up to each of us to get from it what we may.
I may have to start a new thread for this idea, to keep from jacking Luna's thread (which the OP is stellar, btw), but even while we preach there really is no hope in The Church Of Tucson, we still have it. False hope, maybe, but on the days when the God-City ignores us, it doesn't seem so false, and in hope we find the strength to take another step, and another, and another, and soon enough there is momentum, which raises the bar of hope just a little more, and then our backs straighten a little more, and our steps are lighter, and our spirits lift more, and eventually we're driving down Oracle road at 70 MPH, Fire Down Below blaring out the speakers or in our heads and hearts, and shrieks of delight pierce the hot, blinding rain, while up on the roofrackf its the other guy's turn at sunroofing.
Eventually, that hope will be shattered. That is the God-City's will. But we never, ever, EVER say "fuck hope."*
*Unless it's the same circumstances as other people moaning "Never again..." on a Sunday morning. And what invariably happens to that "Never again"? :lulz:
I think I love you.
There's more than one flavor of hope, Freeky. (And you're not jacking, is cool. Some of the coolest conversations and ideas I've seen online have been the result of thread drift.) The one out of that box is the nasty one, the one that leaves you standing with a fistful of ain't gonna happen, clinging to it while other, better stuff passes you by.
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2011, 10:24:10 PM
Luna, you'll be pleased to know that there was no "Hope" in Pandora's Box. The word "hope" did not exist in the Ancient Greek vocabulary, and it's but there in modern translations to give the story some sort of moral.
The moral is that there is none. The Greeks were merely telling us that we're fucked forever, but the romantic Victorians wanted nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure the words that did fly out last were, in fact, "You are fucked forever." in Greek. Or something like that.
If I recall correctly, they didn't say "how are you?" in ancient Greece; what they said translates into English as something like "what are you suffering today?" I always thought that gives you all the insight into the Greeks that you'll ever need.
Lovely OP, by the way. Horrible, but lovely.
I like. Good work, Luna.
Quote from: deadfong on September 15, 2011, 04:11:14 AM
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2011, 10:24:10 PM
Luna, you'll be pleased to know that there was no "Hope" in Pandora's Box. The word "hope" did not exist in the Ancient Greek vocabulary, and it's but there in modern translations to give the story some sort of moral.
The moral is that there is none. The Greeks were merely telling us that we're fucked forever, but the romantic Victorians wanted nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure the words that did fly out last were, in fact, "You are fucked forever." in Greek. Or something like that.
If I recall correctly, they didn't say "how are you?" in ancient Greece; what they said translates into English as something like "what are you suffering today?" I always thought that gives you all the insight into the Greeks that you'll ever need.
Lovely OP, by the way. Horrible, but lovely.
I need to learn more about ancient Greece, STAT. :lulz:
Quote from: Jenkem and SPACE/TIME on September 15, 2011, 05:24:14 AM
Quote from: deadfong on September 15, 2011, 04:11:14 AM
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2011, 10:24:10 PM
Luna, you'll be pleased to know that there was no "Hope" in Pandora's Box. The word "hope" did not exist in the Ancient Greek vocabulary, and it's but there in modern translations to give the story some sort of moral.
The moral is that there is none. The Greeks were merely telling us that we're fucked forever, but the romantic Victorians wanted nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure the words that did fly out last were, in fact, "You are fucked forever." in Greek. Or something like that.
If I recall correctly, they didn't say "how are you?" in ancient Greece; what they said translates into English as something like "what are you suffering today?" I always thought that gives you all the insight into the Greeks that you'll ever need.
Lovely OP, by the way. Horrible, but lovely.
I need to learn more about ancient Greece, STAT. :lulz:
Buncha cavemen, dressed robes talking gobshite and inventing democracy. Fuck 'em
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2011, 10:24:10 PM
Luna, you'll be pleased to know that there was no "Hope" in Pandora's Box. The word "hope" did not exist in the Ancient Greek vocabulary, and it's but there in modern translations to give the story some sort of moral.
The moral is that there is none. The Greeks were merely telling us that we're fucked forever, but the romantic Victorians wanted nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure the words that did fly out last were, in fact, "You are fucked forever." in Greek. Or something like that.
I like to think it was a story about how you cannot turn the clock back, that some things, once they are unleashed, take on a life of their own and escape your control.
I cannot say 100% for sure that was the point Hesiod etc were making, but it doesn't strike me as entirely implausible.
And of course, it has the added benefit of being true. I used to, for a while, put down the "reset" mentality to playing too many computer games, but of course it has always existed historically: the idea that you can turn back time and undo past mistakes by working from a clean slate.
I don't know about you, but I've never even seen a clean slate. When I was at school, we used blackboards, which are a kind of slate. But when you rubbed out the chalk, it didn't actually remove the chalk entirely, it just smudged it, making it very hard to read. It's still there.
A lot of life is like that. My mind tends to focus more on the big issues, so I'm going to use one of those as an example, even though you can scale this right down to the individual person. So, in the Afghan War, the commanders there realized their strategy was not doing what it was supposed to, and that actually a lot of people whose support they'd like were quite angry with them.
So they went back to the drawing board ("clean slate") to come up with a new strategy. They then modelled how, based on their understanding about insurgencies, how they should've started from the moment the occupation began, and changed their strategies accordingly.
Problem: this didn't undo all of their past actions, which had led people to believe they were foreign crusaders, thugs and sadists. They saw it, rightly, as a cynical ploy designed to buy their support. The new policies, while much better, couldn't blot out the previous seven years of neglect and brutality, and so the slate wasn't wiped clean, the past wasn't overturned and the policies didn't work.
Nuclear weapons are another example. The Manhatten Project was hard work. Seriously hard work. But once they correctly figured out how to create a nuke...well, it opened the floodgates. Now, in the opinion of nuclear experts, a bomb equal to the one that levelled Hiroshima could be made by as few as 20 qualified people, with $6 million dollars to hand. And while one nuke is terrifying enough, imagine the nuclear war to follow....
Another way of looking at it I suppose is this: "prevention is better than cure". It was easier to never open the box in the first place, because now they're out, you can only treat the symptoms of the ills unleashed on the world, never defeat the root issues. It is better, therefore, from the outset to attempt to prevent the entry of evil into the world than to try and fight the obvious evils that plague us, in the long view.
But of course, Greek tragedy is all about how only the gods really can have that long perspective.
Quote from: Doktor Phox on September 14, 2011, 10:28:43 PM
Quote from: Suu on September 14, 2011, 10:24:10 PM
Luna, you'll be pleased to know that there was no "Hope" in Pandora's Box. The word "hope" did not exist in the Ancient Greek vocabulary, and it's but there in modern translations to give the story some sort of moral.
The moral is that there is none. The Greeks were merely telling us that we're fucked forever, but the romantic Victorians wanted nothing to do with it. I'm pretty sure the words that did fly out last were, in fact, "You are fucked forever." in Greek. Or something like that.
If I remember correctly, there is a Roman version in which "hope" is there.
But yeah, no hope in the Greek version.
I actually remember hearing a version consistent with Lunas interpretation. Not as poetic.
Quote from: Luna on September 14, 2011, 10:55:36 PM
There are a lot of versions of the story.
This one is mine.
I fucking love this version.
Quote from: Donald Coyote on September 19, 2011, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Luna on September 14, 2011, 10:55:36 PM
There are a lot of versions of the story.
This one is mine.
I fucking love this version.
Thanks, I'm really happy with how it came out.
This is beautiful, Luna.
Hope kills; despair is only tiresome.