I think this guy is right on the money. Discuss.
"So recently I've been doing some thinking about all of this controversy over 'pink slime' which a particularly harmful layman's term for beef products that have been sterilized or preserved with a chemical treatment (primarily ammonia).
All animal meat (treated or not) is pink and slimy. But when one hears the word 'pink slime' one thinks of something sordid and toxic. It is certainly not something that you would want on your dinner plate. The news media with it's overwhelming Left-wing bias likes to create these sorts of terms in order to scare the public in to clinging to it's anti-business agenda. The media is responsible for demonizing and often destroying entire industries by using such eloquent and responsible language as "black assault rifles" and "mad cow disease" and "human sex trafficking" and "cop-killer bullets."
There is no evidence that consumption of ammonia in reasonable amounts is dangerous to one's health and there can be no amount of ammonia in a serving of beef (or dozens of servings) that could pose any sort of health risk to anyone.
We do know that ammonia has some positive health benefits. It has been used for thousands of years as action-preparation device by combatants and athletes alike. Ammonia has a stimulant effect and for this reason it is often used by powerlifters and weightlifters (typically by inhaling but also by swishing a mouthful) for the purpose of "psyching up" prior to a big lift. It is also used to revive people who have been knocked unconscious.
One can clearly see why a typical high school student might WANT to be exposed to ammonia. Most high schoolers don't get a lot of sleep and they are expected to complete a daunting amount of mental and physical work on campus. A little ammonia-treated beef might give them the competitive edge that they need to excel in academia. I think I'd prefer ammonia over Ritalin or whatever the hell else our quack doctors are prescribing to our children nowadays. Unlike Ritalin, ammonia is not bad for your heart; on the contrary, ammonia promotes good cardiovascular and respiratory health.
How wondrous, the aromatic essence of ammonia. I think that no two things could better compliment each other than beef and ammonia. Ammonia is like a powerful cologne for food that enriches the culinary experience. I'm a proud consumer of this so-called 'pink slime.' I even buy the beef that hasn't been treated with ammonia and spray it with my own ammonia. How do you like them apples?"
I...
Ah HAH! You almost got me.
I like my slime a healthy gray color
Looked up some data.
160 ppm ammonium hydroxide in meat.
The liver usually handles 0.00004 mol/L, that is the normal concentration in blood.
Let's assume the concentration is the same all through the body.
If you are 60kg then you can handle 0.0024 mol.
Let's assume humans are pure water.
Water is 55 mol/L and 1 L = 1 kg
That makes our 60kg person 3300 mol.
Now remember 160 ppm is in the meat, with 1 kg of meat(again lets assume water) that's 0.0088 mol.
This woud mean that eating more than 272 grams in one meal would start being risky if increased ammonia concentration in blood were actually dangerous. There is no proof for this, ammonia's main danger is it's tendency to form alkaline ammonium hydroxide, the effect this has on acidity and the heat that that reaction creates.
tl:dr version chill the fuck out, it's not especially good for you but is sure as fuck ain't as toxic as nicotine for example.
Also, i may be completely wrong here, my research was sloppy, i took an unholy amount of shortcuts and i am too tired to think straight at the moment.
I'm guessing there's a cumulative effect from eating tons of shit food of various kinds for years and years.
And even if there's not, it's still gross. I quit meat but if I wanted ground meat these days I'd just buy a roundsteak or something and grind it up at home.
LUTEFISK!!!
(hey Iron Waffle, did you ever manage to fulfil that challenge?)
When Native Americans use all parts of the animal, it's looked upon as a good thing, but when corporations do it it's bad?
That's racist!
:hashishim:
I thought this was gonna be an essay about Mike the engineer.
THREAD DOES NOT DELIVER.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 01:44:15 PM
I thought this was gonna be an essay about Mike the engineer.
THREAD DOES NOT DELIVER.
:spittake:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 01:44:15 PM
I thought this was gonna be an essay about Mike the engineer.
THREAD DOES NOT DELIVER.
Did he decide to get into the failing reactor himself?
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on April 16, 2012, 03:31:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 01:44:15 PM
I thought this was gonna be an essay about Mike the engineer.
THREAD DOES NOT DELIVER.
Did he decide to get into the failing reactor himself?
Wrong guy. That was Filthy Assistant.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 04:27:06 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on April 16, 2012, 03:31:59 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 01:44:15 PM
I thought this was gonna be an essay about Mike the engineer.
THREAD DOES NOT DELIVER.
Did he decide to get into the failing reactor himself?
Wrong guy. That was Filthy Assistant.
Whoops...
Quote from: Triple Zero on April 16, 2012, 02:19:50 AM
LUTEFISK!!!
(hey Iron Waffle, did you ever manage to fulfil that challenge?)
I did! but the camera fucked up! I'm still trying to salvage the files.
Quote from: Nigel on April 16, 2012, 03:28:08 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 01:44:15 PM
I thought this was gonna be an essay about Mike the engineer.
THREAD DOES NOT DELIVER.
:spittake:
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: DECI4 on April 14, 2012, 07:23:36 AM
I think this guy is right on the money. Discuss.
...
I was curious who 'this guy' might be.
search the quote, and see it's one "Jim 'fuck latinos' Carrey" at Zoklet....
oooooh-K. :|
Regarding the topic, i'd say it's not so much the claim of ammonia in the meatproduct that got the attention, as it was the widely spread picture of the bright pink homogenous extrusion destined to become McNuggets. the ammonia was just filler fear fodder.
hell. we put ammonia in our water to treat it. (the chlorine and ammonia is mixed to form chloramine in many municipalities.)
Quote from: Iptuous on April 18, 2012, 03:17:05 AM
Quote from: DECI4 on April 14, 2012, 07:23:36 AM
I think this guy is right on the money. Discuss.
...
I was curious who 'this guy' might be.
search the quote, and see it's one "Jim 'fuck latinos' Carrey" at Zoklet....
oooooh-K. :|
Regarding the topic, i'd say it's not so much the claim of ammonia in the meatproduct that got the attention, as it was the widely spread picture of the bright pink homogenous extrusion destined to become McNuggets. the ammonia was just filler fear fodder.
hell. we put ammonia in our water to treat it. (the chlorine and ammonia is mixed to form chloramine in many municipalities.)
You are proposing quite the logical fallacy there. The fact that chloramine is used to treat tap water does not make ammonia good to eat. It doesn't make it bad to eat, either. It's just completely irrelevant.
Ammonia =/= food.
It's in piss, though.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 29, 2012, 05:59:57 PM
Ammonia =/= food.
It's in piss, though.
Piss is actually highly sterile when it first leaves the body.
/
:judge:
That all depends on what you've been putting up your urethra.
Quote from: Nigel on April 29, 2012, 05:36:33 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on April 18, 2012, 03:17:05 AM
Quote from: DECI4 on April 14, 2012, 07:23:36 AM
I think this guy is right on the money. Discuss.
...
I was curious who 'this guy' might be.
search the quote, and see it's one "Jim 'fuck latinos' Carrey" at Zoklet....
oooooh-K. :|
Regarding the topic, i'd say it's not so much the claim of ammonia in the meatproduct that got the attention, as it was the widely spread picture of the bright pink homogenous extrusion destined to become McNuggets. the ammonia was just filler fear fodder.
hell. we put ammonia in our water to treat it. (the chlorine and ammonia is mixed to form chloramine in many municipalities.)
You are proposing quite the logical fallacy there. The fact that chloramine is used to treat tap water does not make ammonia good to eat. It doesn't make it bad to eat, either. It's just completely irrelevant.
i don't understand why it is irrelevant... :?
the story about the meat points out that they use ammonia in the processing of the pink slime, with the implication that using ammonia as a sterilizing agent is a horrible thing that should never be allowed, and the fact that they are doing an 'expose' indicates that they were hiding the fact.
i said that we use ammonia in treating water, as well. it's not a secret, and it's not considered a horrible thing.
i wasn't arguing that it is good.
i wasn't arguing that it is bad.
i was just pointing out that they were using the claim to arouse outrage that is unfounded because the implication is that using ammonia in sterilizing something we consume '
must be done deceptively!', when, in fact, it is a common practice in something as widely consumed as tap water, with full disclosure.
I like that they're putting things in my water. I mean, I miss the horrible germs and stuff, but they're putting chloromine goodness in my water, and I think it's just swell that they care enough to do that. I'd pay more for it, if they'd let me.
This begs the obvious question: Is there any in bottled water? Because if there isn't, I'm going to be unhappy. I'll just give the janitor a syringe and a bottle of ammonia, and the pallet of bottled water. I demand that all of my drinking products have this goodness.
Also, meat. They need to get everything out of my meat, because I miss trichenosis and ecoli. I, as an American™, have a RIGHT to spirochetes, and now I feel cheated.
Quote from: Iptuous on April 30, 2012, 03:55:59 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 29, 2012, 05:36:33 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on April 18, 2012, 03:17:05 AM
Quote from: DECI4 on April 14, 2012, 07:23:36 AM
I think this guy is right on the money. Discuss.
...
I was curious who 'this guy' might be.
search the quote, and see it's one "Jim 'fuck latinos' Carrey" at Zoklet....
oooooh-K. :|
Regarding the topic, i'd say it's not so much the claim of ammonia in the meatproduct that got the attention, as it was the widely spread picture of the bright pink homogenous extrusion destined to become McNuggets. the ammonia was just filler fear fodder.
hell. we put ammonia in our water to treat it. (the chlorine and ammonia is mixed to form chloramine in many municipalities.)
You are proposing quite the logical fallacy there. The fact that chloramine is used to treat tap water does not make ammonia good to eat. It doesn't make it bad to eat, either. It's just completely irrelevant.
i don't understand why it is irrelevant... :?
the story about the meat points out that they use ammonia in the processing of the pink slime, with the implication that using ammonia as a sterilizing agent is a horrible thing that should never be allowed, and the fact that they are doing an 'expose' indicates that they were hiding the fact.
i said that we use ammonia in treating water, as well. it's not a secret, and it's not considered a horrible thing.
i wasn't arguing that it is good.
i wasn't arguing that it is bad.
i was just pointing out that they were using the claim to arouse outrage that is unfounded because the implication is that using ammonia in sterilizing something we consume 'must be done deceptively!', when, in fact, it is a common practice in something as widely consumed as tap water, with full disclosure.
It's irrelevant because chloramine is not ammonia. It's also very toxic (which is what makes it useful as a disinfectant) and its use in drinking water, even at extremely dilute proportions, is linked to triggering asthma in asthma-prone children, but that's also irrelevant because it's not ammonia.
When you change something's chemical composition, it becomes a different chemical. Altering a single molecule can potentially make an innocuous chemical toxic, or a toxic chemical edible. Would you drink hydrogen peroxide? It's only a single molecule different from water, and is, in fact, made from water, much like chloramine is made from ammonia.
Chloramine:
(http://wiki-images.enotes.com/thumb/b/be/Chloramine-3D-vdW.png/140px-Chloramine-3D-vdW.png)
Ammonia:
(http://www.chemicals-technology.com/projects/pequivenammonia/images/2-ammonia-molecule.jpg)
I am not opposed to use of chloramine in water (it beats amoebic dysentery hands-down), and I'm not sure I'm opposed to using ammonia to reduce the risk of e. coli (I got sick from e. coli once. The projectile vomiting is really, seriously no fun at all), although I have some concerns about companies using disinfectant as a substitute for safe handling. I'm just saying that the two are not comparable in the way you were using them, because they are different chemicals.
I'm not sure about the effectiveness and cost of chloramine vs chlorine, but I know that both kill pretty much anything in the water and chlorine can be removed by just letting your water sit for a bit while chloramine is really hard to get out.
chlorination with chlorine, sure, keep the cholera out, chloramine though is going too far, at least in my opinion.
Quote from: Nigel on May 05, 2012, 08:41:53 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on April 30, 2012, 03:55:59 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 29, 2012, 05:36:33 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on April 18, 2012, 03:17:05 AM
Quote from: DECI4 on April 14, 2012, 07:23:36 AM
I think this guy is right on the money. Discuss.
...
I was curious who 'this guy' might be.
search the quote, and see it's one "Jim 'fuck latinos' Carrey" at Zoklet....
oooooh-K. :|
Regarding the topic, i'd say it's not so much the claim of ammonia in the meatproduct that got the attention, as it was the widely spread picture of the bright pink homogenous extrusion destined to become McNuggets. the ammonia was just filler fear fodder.
hell. we put ammonia in our water to treat it. (the chlorine and ammonia is mixed to form chloramine in many municipalities.)
You are proposing quite the logical fallacy there. The fact that chloramine is used to treat tap water does not make ammonia good to eat. It doesn't make it bad to eat, either. It's just completely irrelevant.
i don't understand why it is irrelevant... :?
the story about the meat points out that they use ammonia in the processing of the pink slime, with the implication that using ammonia as a sterilizing agent is a horrible thing that should never be allowed, and the fact that they are doing an 'expose' indicates that they were hiding the fact.
i said that we use ammonia in treating water, as well. it's not a secret, and it's not considered a horrible thing.
i wasn't arguing that it is good.
i wasn't arguing that it is bad.
i was just pointing out that they were using the claim to arouse outrage that is unfounded because the implication is that using ammonia in sterilizing something we consume 'must be done deceptively!', when, in fact, it is a common practice in something as widely consumed as tap water, with full disclosure.
It's irrelevant because chloramine is not ammonia. It's also very toxic (which is what makes it useful as a disinfectant) and its use in drinking water, even at extremely dilute proportions, is linked to triggering asthma in asthma-prone children, but that's also irrelevant because it's not ammonia.
When you change something's chemical composition, it becomes a different chemical. Altering a single molecule can potentially make an innocuous chemical toxic, or a toxic chemical edible. Would you drink hydrogen peroxide? It's only a single molecule different from water, and is, in fact, made from water, much like chloramine is made from ammonia.
Chloramine:
(http://wiki-images.enotes.com/thumb/b/be/Chloramine-3D-vdW.png/140px-Chloramine-3D-vdW.png)
Ammonia:
(http://www.chemicals-technology.com/projects/pequivenammonia/images/2-ammonia-molecule.jpg)
I am not opposed to use of chloramine in water (it beats amoebic dysentery hands-down), and I'm not sure I'm opposed to using ammonia to reduce the risk of e. coli (I got sick from e. coli once. The projectile vomiting is really, seriously no fun at all), although I have some concerns about companies using disinfectant as a substitute for safe handling. I'm just saying that the two are not comparable in the way you were using them, because they are different chemicals.
Many water treatment plants, including ours here in dallas, put chlorine in the water and ammonia in the water. it forms chloramine in the water. Yes i'm aware that this is a bit different than the chicken.
that is all missing my point, however.
I'm simply saying that they are using the word 'ammonia' as a fear trigger, regardless of whether it is actually a health risk, or not (otherwise, they would explain why that is dangerous, but they don't. they just tack that word onto the image of the pink slime as an exclamation point.)
I'm just saying that using a completely irrelevant comparison is not exactly helpful. It doesn't illustrate a point.
"They're using ammonia as a scare tactic, but there isn't actually anything harmful or even unnatural about ingesting small amounts of ammonia" is a point. A valid one.
"Ammonia isn't bad to eat because they put chloramine in the water" is not a point, it's a non-sequitur. The irony is, of course, that by employing a false comparison, you're making the same logical fallacy you're complaining about.
I am very curious about why the pink slime debate has gone in the direction of criticizing the disinfectant, rather than the product itself. It's a weird shift of focus because the stuff is foul with or without being treated with ammonia. Red herring? So the makers can say "We listened! Pink slime is now made without ammonia!"
Keep in mind that until the 90's, the ends and bits that now go into pink slime used to be destined for the dog chow factory. We're eating this shit because it makes somebody money, not because it's wholesome food.
perhaps you missed it when i said that they put -ammonia- in the water.
it does form chloramine when they put the chlorine in there, too, but they put -ammonia- in the water.
furthermore, i'm not making any claim that "Ammonia isn't bad to eat because yadda yadda...."
regardless, it is a minor point, and we are in agreement on the major point.
Chicken McNuggets are disgusting.
in fact, any meat product that has air bubbles in it because it was previously a liquid is pretty fucking gross...
Quote from: Iptuous on May 07, 2012, 03:20:22 AM
perhaps you missed it when i said that they put -ammonia- in the water.
it does form chloramine when they put the chlorine in there, too, but they put -ammonia- in the water.
furthermore, i'm not making any claim that "Ammonia isn't bad to eat because yadda yadda...."
regardless, it is a minor point, and we are in agreement on the major point.
Chicken McNuggets are disgusting.
in fact, any meat product that has air bubbles in it because it was previously a liquid is pretty fucking gross...
So, when people consume the water, are they consuming ammonia or chloramine? :lulz: Sorry man, you're just being silly now. "But it's ammonia before it comes in contact with the chlorinated water and converts to chloramine" is pretty much exactly as irrelevant as the original comparison.
But yeah, I am in favor of appropriate and factual food labeling.
Quote from: Nigel on May 05, 2012, 08:41:53 PM
Chloramine:
(http://wiki-images.enotes.com/thumb/b/be/Chloramine-3D-vdW.png/140px-Chloramine-3D-vdW.png)
Ammonia:
(http://www.chemicals-technology.com/projects/pequivenammonia/images/2-ammonia-molecule.jpg)
As you can see, Ammonia is much bigger, so it penetrates cell membranes with more difficulty, while Chloramine is small and can therefore concentrate in higher doses within a smaller volume, making it much more dangerous.
Quote from: Net on April 30, 2012, 01:58:55 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 29, 2012, 05:59:57 PM
Ammonia =/= food.
It's in piss, though.
Piss is actually highly sterile when it first leaves the body.
/
:judge:
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on April 30, 2012, 09:03:50 AM
That all depends on what you've been putting up your urethra.
Sounds legit.
:madbanana:
........................