Principia Discordia

Inspired by the Reddit thread.

You have;

A ten week term, with one 45 minute class a week.

A class of 14/15 year old students.

An electronic whiteboard (can use multimedia; visuals, clips, music, etc)

What would you include? What makes a good sexual education unit? What messages are the most important to promote?

I've got some stuff to do, but I'll add some thoughts later.

This is what consent is. Consent needs to be explicit. If your partner says no or otherwise indicates disinterest, back off.

[site/organization] is where you can get free, good resources on STIs, their prevention and treatment, and here's how to not catch them.

[site/organization] is where you can get contraceptives and information on pregnancy.

As much as you can get away with using from european sex ed, do it. They're a lot more open, tell the kids it's THEIR OWN decision when they're ready for sex, explain stuff like oral sex and mutual masturbation, etc. and their rates of pregnancies and STD's are WAY below ours.

your post is only true if you don't count "being born French" as an STD.

Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on August 04, 2012, 06:57:38 AM
your post is only true if you don't count "being born French" as an STD.

:lulz:

Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on August 04, 2012, 06:57:38 AM
your post is only true if you don't count "being born French" as an STD.

Dammit, I was thinking in terms of Scandinavian sex ed. Thanks for pointing that out.  :lulz:

Id put this on

Nsfw http://www.freakdatbitchout.com/

and take questions from there.

Social rules of sex (what Garbo said).
Methods of birth control with respect to STD prevention and pregnancy prevention.
The 17 rule.
I would leave the gestation thing out.  That's more a biology question and less of a sex thing.
Anonymous Q&A <--- most important part.

I would definitely address that boys want sex, that girls want sex, and that regardless of whether you are a boy or a girl, you should base your readiness to have sex on your own feelings and not social pressures.

The issue of STD safety should be an early part of the curriculum, as should be birth control.

Emotional and medical resources should be part of the curriculum; identifying reliable allies who can provide you with support and reliable health information, whether it be parents, and aunt or uncle, or a clinic.

Every person's ultimate right to decide what happens with their own body and the supremacy of their comfort with what happens to their own body should be part of the curriculum. I think that it is significant to emphasize that people should not, in any way, feel like they need to be polite or gracious when it comes to anything anyone else wants to do to them because anyone who wants to do something with your body that you do not want has already transgressed beyond any concept of manners or politeness.

Clearly, we should teach kids that

A) The male orgasm is a necessary evil, and should be followed immediately by a scalding shower and at least 25 Hail Marys.
B) The female orgasm was invented by Satan, working in conjunction with the Women's Liberation Movement and Al Qaeda.
C) The only sure protection against STDs is marriage.

I think that I would start with "Sex is a natural, normal, and inevitable part of being a sexually reproducing species. We don't really have much choice in that, and it is false and unnatural to pretend that we do. However, what we do have, as a highly intellectual species, are choices in when, how, and whether we engage in sexual activity".

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 07:27:59 AM
Clearly, we should teach kids that

A) The male orgasm is a necessary evil, and should be followed immediately by a scalding shower and at least 25 Hail Marys.
B) The female orgasm was invented by Satan, working in conjunction with the Women's Liberation Movement and Al Qaeda.
C) The only sure protection against STDs is marriage.

You forgot one:

FEMALE SEXUALITY IS ONLY ACCEPTABLE WHEN IT IS USED IN ADVERTISING TO SELL SHIT

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on August 05, 2012, 07:39:49 AM

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 07:27:59 AM
Clearly, we should teach kids that

A) The male orgasm is a necessary evil, and should be followed immediately by a scalding shower and at least 25 Hail Marys.
B) The female orgasm was invented by Satan, working in conjunction with the Women's Liberation Movement and Al Qaeda.
C) The only sure protection against STDs is marriage.

You forgot one:

FEMALE SEXUALITY IS ONLY ACCEPTABLE WHEN IT IS USED IN ADVERTISING TO SELL SHIT

Seriously.

Although, the shit in commercials has absolutely nothing to do with female sexuality. I know for a fact that women do not behave that way on beaches.

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 07:46:50 AM

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on August 05, 2012, 07:39:49 AM

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 07:27:59 AM
Clearly, we should teach kids that

A) The male orgasm is a necessary evil, and should be followed immediately by a scalding shower and at least 25 Hail Marys.
B) The female orgasm was invented by Satan, working in conjunction with the Women's Liberation Movement and Al Qaeda.
C) The only sure protection against STDs is marriage.

You forgot one:

FEMALE SEXUALITY IS ONLY ACCEPTABLE WHEN IT IS USED IN ADVERTISING TO SELL SHIT

Seriously.

Although, the shit in commercials has absolutely nothing to do with female sexuality. I know for a fact that women do not behave that way on beaches.

Of course they do. And they cluster around guys who drink certain beer and take viagra, and cum like banshees when they use that one kind of shampoo.

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on August 05, 2012, 08:03:09 AM

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 07:46:50 AM

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on August 05, 2012, 07:39:49 AM

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 07:27:59 AM
Clearly, we should teach kids that

A) The male orgasm is a necessary evil, and should be followed immediately by a scalding shower and at least 25 Hail Marys.
B) The female orgasm was invented by Satan, working in conjunction with the Women's Liberation Movement and Al Qaeda.
C) The only sure protection against STDs is marriage.

You forgot one:

FEMALE SEXUALITY IS ONLY ACCEPTABLE WHEN IT IS USED IN ADVERTISING TO SELL SHIT

Seriously.

Although, the shit in commercials has absolutely nothing to do with female sexuality. I know for a fact that women do not behave that way on beaches.

Of course they do. And they cluster around guys who drink certain beer and take viagra, and cum like banshees when they use that one kind of shampoo.

Yeah. That's why I'm not getting any lately. Fucking Suave.

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 08:08:26 AM

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on August 05, 2012, 08:03:09 AM

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 07:46:50 AM

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on August 05, 2012, 07:39:49 AM

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 07:27:59 AM
Clearly, we should teach kids that

A) The male orgasm is a necessary evil, and should be followed immediately by a scalding shower and at least 25 Hail Marys.
B) The female orgasm was invented by Satan, working in conjunction with the Women's Liberation Movement and Al Qaeda.
C) The only sure protection against STDs is marriage.

You forgot one:

FEMALE SEXUALITY IS ONLY ACCEPTABLE WHEN IT IS USED IN ADVERTISING TO SELL SHIT

Seriously.

Although, the shit in commercials has absolutely nothing to do with female sexuality. I know for a fact that women do not behave that way on beaches.

Of course they do. And they cluster around guys who drink certain beer and take viagra, and cum like banshees when they use that one kind of shampoo.

Yeah. That's why I'm not getting any lately. Fucking Suave.

:horrormirth:

The use of sex to sell products does so much of everyone such a huge disservice, I don't even know where to start.

You can sell everything with sex, as long as it isn't nobody actually ends up having sex. That would be prostitution.

That might be worth a whole thread.
I mean, why does it WORK? Everybody knows it's crap.
Even hamburgers are sex. Hot & juicy.

I think it works best in repressed societies, although I don't have a non-repressed society to compare it to. Probably a "LOOK SEX! LOL YOU CAN'T HAVE IT! OH WELL YOU CAN HAVE A BIG MAC INSTEAD!" kind of thing.

one thing i'd want to do is expose a narrative that i see in a lot of american media. the narrative that says guys "get some" and girls "give it up". instead of that 'vagina is a commodity (depreciating value with time and usage btw, unlike the penis which can actually increase in value with time and usage) and men have to somehow maneuver around some bitch so that they can gain access to it and thereby bask in the greatness of the pussy oversoul' bullshit, i'd try to make them think of how great reciprocal sex is. and show them how much of an asshole you are if you are completely ignoring the person you are having sex with, let alone the effects that having sex with them may have on them.

and it'd probably be a good time to drop some lgbtqabbq knowledge on them as well

Holy shit, I think we MAY HAVE A BIPED OVER HERE!

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 08:35:50 AM
one thing i'd want to do is expose a narrative that i see in a lot of american media. the narrative that says guys "get some" and girls "give it up". instead of that 'vagina is a commodity (depreciating value with time and usage btw, unlike the penis which can actually increase in value with time and usage) and men have to somehow maneuver around some bitch so that they can gain access to it and thereby bask in the greatness of the pussy oversoul' bullshit, i'd try to make them think of how great reciprocal sex is. and show them how much of an asshole you are if you are completely ignoring the person you are having sex with, let alone the effects that having sex with them may have on them.

and it'd probably be a good time to drop some lgbtqabbq knowledge on them as well

Look, asshole, if you keep posting like that you're gonna survive past the 50 post mark. And that would be violating tradition around here.

:lulz: certainly of late, anyway.

i'm picking up hints of playfulness, but i'm not really sure. i'm actually not used to communicating with strangers on the internet, and you bunch are definitely off. so i waver between "do i sound like a pretentious schmuck?" and "they must understand me!"

I'm liking the posts so far.

I think I like you.


Also, I'd add a brief discussion of media literacy.

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 08:33:33 AM
I think it works best in repressed societies, although I don't have a non-repressed society to compare it to. Probably a "LOOK SEX! LOL YOU CAN'T HAVE IT! OH WELL YOU CAN HAVE A BIG MAC INSTEAD!" kind of thing.

How do they sell stuff in Denmark or wherever the hell people don't get this sex-obsessed frustrated puritan thing pounded into them? Are their hambugers metaphors for pussy?

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on August 05, 2012, 08:53:51 AM

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 08:33:33 AM
I think it works best in repressed societies, although I don't have a non-repressed society to compare it to. Probably a "LOOK SEX! LOL YOU CAN'T HAVE IT! OH WELL YOU CAN HAVE A BIG MAC INSTEAD!" kind of thing.

How do they sell stuff in Denmark or wherever the hell people don't get this sex-obsessed frustrated puritan thing pounded into them? Are their hambugers metaphors for pussy?

I'm sure sex is used to sell things everywhere, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't just more effective in America. In Europe sex is more prevalent in general, but from what I've seen it looks like they're having fun with it more than using it to sell things.

As for the Danish, they do not eat hamburgers. And they also don't have sex.

They, in fact, subsist on fish and sand, and reproduce asexually.

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 09:06:55 AM
They, in fact, subsist on fish and sand, and reproduce asexually.

Truth. We should just adopt the official Danish Sex-Ed program:

Quote
FIRST YOU FIND A STICK, AND USE IT TO PRY OPEN THE ORIFICE OF YOUR DANISH REPRODUCTIVE SAC. THEN POUR IN THE SALT....
etc

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 09:09:50 AM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 09:06:55 AM
They, in fact, subsist on fish and sand, and reproduce asexually.

Truth. We should just adopt the official Danish Sex-Ed program:

Quote
FIRST YOU FIND A STICK, AND USE IT TO PRY OPEN THE ORIFICE OF YOUR DANISH REPRODUCTIVE SAC. THEN POUR IN THE SALT....
etc

:fap2:

Most of the suggestions given so far are pretty good, but the one thing that is missing is the discussion of pregnancy.  I think a curriculum must include that as well as one of the possible outcomes of sexual activity, particularly when unprotected but even the potential failure of birth control.


I think it needs to be a very important consideration for a young person when they are thinking about sex.  Because certainly being pregnant at 15 or 16, is going to dramatically offer the trajectory of one's life.

Quote from: Gen. Disregard on August 05, 2012, 11:57:23 AM
Most of the suggestions given so far are pretty good, but the one thing that is missing is the discussion of pregnancy.  I think a curriculum must include that as well as one of the possible outcomes of sexual activity, particularly when unprotected but even the potential failure of birth control.


I think it needs to be a very important consideration for a young person when they are thinking about sex.  Because certainly being pregnant at 15 or 16, is going to dramatically offer the trajectory of one's life.

Yep, failure rates of contraceptives is something that is a helpful tool that would enable kids to make the right choices about what is right for them. 

Great points so far, I'd also address that if you have buttsex that YOU NEED CONDOMS LUBE AND PATIENCE!, Ass-to-mouth is very unhygienic, and ass to vagina is a recipe for bacterial vaginosis, that anal tears that can occur increase the risk of STD's. Might not go overly well with the conservative Christian crowd, but yanno, FUCK THOSE GUYS!

Abstinence if you want that kind of thing is ok too, but buttsex doesn't make you abstinent, okay?

ALSO! if it hurts, your doing it wrong.  Dan Savage quoted a study a while back on one of his podcasts that UK kids were having sex that was painful because no one mentioned that it was meant to feel good, not hurt.

Mentioning that some people are gay, some people are bi, and some are asexual would be good too.

SAFER SEX PRACTICES FOR GIRLS WHO DIG GIRLS. Seriously, the lesbian and bi girls get NO information from parents, doctors, or women's magazines. Some of that info would be beneficial to guys too, like CLEAN HANDS AND SHORT NAILS IN THE DELICATE INTERNAL LADYPARTS,! and  GLYCERIN BASED LUBE IS BAD FOR LADYPARTS AND CAN CAUSE THRUSH! Gloves, dental dams, safe use of vibrators/dildos and such. Oh and toxic sex toys and how to spot them. Phylates are nasty things, silicone glass and metal, not those jelly things that smell plasticky (a sure sign of phylates.)

I'd like to see a good couple of sessions on Dating Violence and abusive behaviour red flags, maybe at the beginning of the course. The statistics for that shit is alarming as fuck. and we need to arm kids with these tools before an abusive relationship pattern is formed. Actually, that may be better to do as a separate course with younger kids, as I've seen case studies of 11-13 year olds in abusive relationships.  Some youngun's think that abusive relationships are normal, because they haven't been told otherwise, and that makes me very sad.

I just realised that I'm a conservative parent's worst nightmare hahahahaha! :D

The only thing I can remember from Sex Ed is
Use condoms!
Rape is fucking terrible, so obtain consent.
Whatever you feel, it's probably not abnormal.
And something about tampons.

In retrospect, I miss something about relationships and maybe some more technical depth.

Possibly, that was indeed covered but I didn't listen well because my main concern with sexuality until quite recently was trying to find a healthy way to repress it so a life of perpetual virginity wouldn't hurt so much.

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on August 05, 2012, 08:53:51 AM

Quote from: v3x on August 05, 2012, 08:33:33 AM
I think it works best in repressed societies, although I don't have a non-repressed society to compare it to. Probably a "LOOK SEX! LOL YOU CAN'T HAVE IT! OH WELL YOU CAN HAVE A BIG MAC INSTEAD!" kind of thing.

How do they sell stuff in Denmark or wherever the hell people don't get this sex-obsessed frustrated puritan thing pounded into them? Are their hambugers metaphors for pussy?

In Denmark (http://www.e-flux.com/journal/on-the-turn-towards-liberal-state-racism-in-denmark/)?

They just tell people that a Muslim is going to eat your hamburger if you don't eat it first. 

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 08:35:50 AM
one thing i'd want to do is expose a narrative that i see in a lot of american media. the narrative that says guys "get some" and girls "give it up". instead of that 'vagina is a commodity (depreciating value with time and usage btw, unlike the penis which can actually increase in value with time and usage) and men have to somehow maneuver around some bitch so that they can gain access to it and thereby bask in the greatness of the pussy oversoul' bullshit, i'd try to make them think of how great reciprocal sex is. and show them how much of an asshole you are if you are completely ignoring the person you are having sex with, let alone the effects that having sex with them may have on them.

and it'd probably be a good time to drop some lgbtqabbq knowledge on them as well

1.  Howdy, new guy.  I hate you.  Grrrr!

2.  That word I bolded out.  It has to stop growing.

Based on context, does that acronym stand for "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans-Gender, Queer, Asexual, and Pig-Fucker"?

People come up with the darndest names for things...

The full acronym is LGBTQWTFROFLMAOBBQ

Quote from: Cain on August 05, 2012, 06:18:05 PM
The full acronym is LGBTQWTFROFLMAOBBQ

Something about laughing at a BBQ?

Crazy modern kids and their sexual preferences.

Still, at least we can all agree furries are disgusting perverts.

Quote from: Gen. Disregard on August 05, 2012, 11:57:23 AM
Most of the suggestions given so far are pretty good, but the one thing that is missing is the discussion of pregnancy.  I think a curriculum must include that as well as one of the possible outcomes of sexual activity, particularly when unprotected but even the potential failure of birth control.


I think it needs to be a very important consideration for a young person when they are thinking about sex.  Because certainly being pregnant at 15 or 16, is going to dramatically offer the trajectory of one's life.

Yeah, other than right away on page one, nobody's mentioned birth control at all.  :lulz:

Quote from: Forsooth on August 05, 2012, 06:12:00 PM
Based on context, does that acronym stand for "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans-Gender, Queer, Asexual, and Pig-Fucker"?

People come up with the darndest names for things...

I propose that in order to be inclusive and not leave anyone out, we just refer to the whole spectrum by the shorthand of "sexuality".

Quote from: Forsooth on August 05, 2012, 06:12:00 PM
Based on context, does that acronym stand for "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans-Gender, Queer, Asexual, and Pig-Fucker"?

People come up with the darndest names for things...

adding bbq was a huge step for the movement. the pig-fucker community, up until then was excluded and ridiculed, left to get off in dark alleyways and dirty underground nightclubs. police are people too you know.

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 06:33:06 PM

I propose that in order to be inclusive and not leave anyone out, we just refer to the whole spectrum by the shorthand of "sexuality".

i concur, but i think these divisions can be helpful to the people contained within them because they've been told not to feel at home in the normative definition of sexuality. when a critical mass of people accept the whole spectrum, then maybe they'll feel ok with that? i'm not a huge fan of these divisions as well. the term feminism bothers me sometimes for this reason. i know third-wave is more about equality for everyone and is sex-positive, but it still feels like another boundary to break down. women can't move forward to a different sexual paradigm on their own and need the participation and education of men, however douchey and privileged we can be at times. most men can't get behind the term feminism though and start to lash back when they see women organizing. seems counterproductive. maybe my privilege is showing though?

Hot damn, new guy can CONVERSATE LIKE A MOTHERFUCKER. :eek:  :aaa: :fap:

Yeah, WHO WAS THAT MASKED MAN?  :p

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 07:13:18 PM

Quote from: Forsooth on August 05, 2012, 06:12:00 PM
Based on context, does that acronym stand for "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans-Gender, Queer, Asexual, and Pig-Fucker"?

People come up with the darndest names for things...

adding bbq was a huge step for the movement. the pig-fucker community, up until then was excluded and ridiculed, left to get off in dark alleyways and dirty underground nightclubs. police are people too you know.

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 06:33:06 PM

I propose that in order to be inclusive and not leave anyone out, we just refer to the whole spectrum by the shorthand of "sexuality".

i concur, but i think these divisions can be helpful to the people contained within them because they've been told not to feel at home in the normative definition of sexuality. when a critical mass of people accept the whole spectrum, then maybe they'll feel ok with that? i'm not a huge fan of these divisions as well. the term feminism bothers me sometimes for this reason. i know third-wave is more about equality for everyone and is sex-positive, but it still feels like another boundary to break down. women can't move forward to a different sexual paradigm on their own and need the participation and education of men, however douchey and privileged we can be at times. most men can't get behind the term feminism though and start to lash back when they see women organizing. seems counterproductive. maybe my privilege is showing though?

We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

No it isn't, but it isn't necessarily theirs either. I'm looking at media hype and straw feminists in TV, movies, etc. Shit, before I started reading the discussions on it here I was ever embarrassed to say the word,  for fear that someone might write me off as crazy and not worth listening to. I still feel that way from time to time.

Sadly, it ultimately IS womens' problem if men can't get behind the term "feminism", as reaching true equality in the current sociopolitical paradigm will require that men be on board.

I mean, I understand what you're saying but at this point that's more an ideal (that I agree with) than a reality.

Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on August 05, 2012, 09:35:48 PM
No it isn't, but it isn't necessarily theirs either. I'm looking at media hype and straw feminists in TV, movies, etc. Shit, before I started reading the discussions on it here I was ever embarrassed to say the word,  for fear that someone might write me off as crazy and not worth listening to. I still feel that way from time to time.

I don't say "feminist" in IRL conversation much, either, but I live in a yahoo community. So they see that I've got a little makeup on, I shave my legs and armpits, and there are men I actually like and will go out of my way for (ok, not local men, but men :lol: ). Then, if something like abortion comes up, I'll wave my hand in the general area of my ute and say "This belongs to me, not the state. It's MY business.". Hopefully this shit will bypass somebody's filters at some point, I don't know...

Mind you, I'm not saying the term should be thrown out, but it will require alot of work and education for the word to lose its stigma.

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 07:13:18 PM

Quote from: Forsooth on August 05, 2012, 06:12:00 PM
Based on context, does that acronym stand for "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans-Gender, Queer, Asexual, and Pig-Fucker"?

People come up with the darndest names for things...

adding bbq was a huge step for the movement. the pig-fucker community, up until then was excluded and ridiculed, left to get off in dark alleyways and dirty underground nightclubs. police are people too you know.

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 06:33:06 PM

I propose that in order to be inclusive and not leave anyone out, we just refer to the whole spectrum by the shorthand of "sexuality".

i concur, but i think these divisions can be helpful to the people contained within them because they've been told not to feel at home in the normative definition of sexuality. when a critical mass of people accept the whole spectrum, then maybe they'll feel ok with that? i'm not a huge fan of these divisions as well. the term feminism bothers me sometimes for this reason. i know third-wave is more about equality for everyone and is sex-positive, but it still feels like another boundary to break down. women can't move forward to a different sexual paradigm on their own and need the participation and education of men, however douchey and privileged we can be at times. most men can't get behind the term feminism though and start to lash back when they see women organizing. seems counterproductive. maybe my privilege is showing though?

I am talking about for the purposes of this conversation. "Sexuality" is a pretty good word to cover the spectrum of human sexual behavior that a good sex-ed program would touch upon, IMO.

Never mind, I guess this thread isn't about human sexual behavior anymore.

I think that sex ed and feminism are (or at least should be) two very closely related subjects. If the concept of respecting women as people and respecting peoples' boundaries was part of a sex-ed curriculum it would do a whole lot of good to counter the rape culture. Trying to teach over already-ingrained programming is never as effective as instilling that teaching as the default programming from a young age.

Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on August 05, 2012, 10:16:04 PM
I think that sex ed and feminism are (or at least should be) two very closely related subjects. If the concept of respecting women as people and respecting peoples' boundaries was part of a sex-ed curriculum it would do a whole lot of good to counter the rape culture. Trying to teach over already-ingrained programming is never as effective as instilling that teaching as the default programming from a young age.

I completely agree. I was just a little put off by being told that "sexuality" is an inadequate word when talking about sex-ed because transsexuality and transgender aren't sexualities.

My first reaction was "but wat does that have to do..." and my second reaction was "oh fukkit".

That was meant to be an aside, Nigel. The more important thing, at least so far as I intended, was that "sexuality" would sort of lump everything together (at least so far as I was thinking at the time) when I think it would be more valuable to differentiate some.
Although I suppose you could mostly lump certain things together (biseuxality and homosexality, and asexuality and demisexuality (http://www.asexuality.org/wiki/index.php?title=Demisexual), perhaps?) and provide specific resources for each of them before moving on.

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

Garbo, you seem to be talking about sexual orientation, which is completely different from sexual behavior. Also, I think that in the context of the limited time frame this imaginary curriculum has, trying to address every permutation of possible human sexual expression is not only futile but also a waste of time, which is where you go "hey guys, there's a whole spectrum, here are some examples, it's all cool, now let's talk about generalities and how to identify resources and allies if you need to".

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

:lulz: Yes, this.

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 10:59:18 PM
Garbo, you seem to be talking about sexual orientation, which is completely different from sexual behavior. Also, I think that in the context of the limited time frame this imaginary curriculum has, trying to address every permutation of possible human sexual expression is not only futile but also a waste of time, which is where you go "hey guys, there's a whole spectrum, here are some examples, it's all cool, now let's talk about generalities and how to identify resources and allies if you need to".

Okay, fair point.

OP: What I believe sex ed should have in it:

What happens when things go in places, IE risks, care, and the general end result. Which includes: mouths, butts, vaginas, fingers, feet, tongues, and in one odd experience, armpits. Anything you can think of included in here.

Disease control, how to lower it all and prevent it from happening. Disease effects as well.

Pregnancy and it's effects, short and long term (meaning the 9 months and afterwards)

Consent and care, which in itself, means "Yes you can." Also - "This is the g-spot, the clit, the bundle of nerves at the end of the penis, prostate" etc. A little anatomy.

A small psychological talk about the feelings of others. Sex doesn't include just one person unless you have toys or a REALLY long penis in which to sex yourself from behind. Though in that case too, masturbation not being shameful or evil also included.

This all in all covering everything can, I believe, educate in a general manner and covers all genders and sexualities.

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

really?

I think that good basic sex ed should essentially be an owner's manual.

This is your body. You only get one. This is what it does. Here is basic maintenance, and some maintenance resources. Your body can do some neat stuff with other people's bodies; here are some scenarios, and how you may choose to negotiate them. YMMV. Remember, everybody only gets one. Hopefully this handy guide has been helpful for you; if you have  questions, here are some more resources.

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 11:33:57 PM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

really?

I guess it depends on what you want the movement for. Is it for equality? Egalitarianism? The rights of men to be on level footing with women, to show their emotions, to be nurturing, and to be loving and engaged fathers, partners, and sons? That one's called "feminism".

If you're looking for one that reinforces men's position of privilege in Western society, I think that one's called "The Tea Party".

I'm not sure what you're going for, here, but your lament kind of reminds me of the lament that there's no such channel as White Entertainment Television. There is; it's called "all of the rest of them."

Males, particularly white males, already have the biggest, most solid support group there is, and it's called "society".

Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on August 05, 2012, 10:16:04 PM
I think that sex ed and feminism are (or at least should be) two very closely related subjects. If the concept of respecting women as people and respecting peoples' boundaries was part of a sex-ed curriculum it would do a whole lot of good to counter the rape culture. Trying to teach over already-ingrained programming is never as effective as instilling that teaching as the default programming from a young age.

Issues of consent can be taught at a very young age without getting into sex at all.  If another kid doesn't want to play don't push, absence of yes means no, whether it's kickball or felching.

Conservative parents are going to backlash about young kids being taught about sex, including many who would be supportive or at least quiet about sex ed for high school kids, they aren't going to get upset about kids being taught that consent is important in all activities, or being taught that boys and girls are both people and worthy of equal respect.

Please stop posting in any and all sex-related topics. You make everybody else want to stay out of threads you post in. This would go a long way towards alleviating my desire to make a special case out of you.

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:43:54 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 11:33:57 PM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

really?

I guess it depends on what you want the movement for. Is it for equality? Egalitarianism? The rights of men to be on level footing with women, to show their emotions, to be nurturing, and to be loving and engaged fathers, partners, and sons? That one's called "feminism".

If you're looking for one that reinforces men's position of privilege in Western society, I think that one's called "The Tea Party".

I'm not sure what you're going for, here, but your lament kind of reminds me of the lament that there's no such channel as White Entertainment Television. There is; it's called "all of the rest of them."

Males, particularly white males, already have the biggest, most solid support group there is, and it's called "society".

I always felt that in a heteronormative homosocial society that consent education for guys could be done brilliantly by men allied to the feminist movement, and might have more chance of getting through to young men, maybe combining it with sports teams and mentorship. There's an organisation called A Call To All Men that does a similar thing , and the founder did an awesome TED talk.

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:43:54 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 11:33:57 PM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

really?

I guess it depends on what you want the movement for. Is it for equality? Egalitarianism? The rights of men to be on level footing with women, to show their emotions, to be nurturing, and to be loving and engaged fathers, partners, and sons? That one's called "feminism".

If you're looking for one that reinforces men's position of privilege in Western society, I think that one's called "The Tea Party".

I'm not sure what you're going for, here, but your lament kind of reminds me of the lament that there's no such channel as White Entertainment Television. There is; it's called "all of the rest of them."

Males, particularly white males, already have the biggest, most solid support group there is, and it's called "society".

i don't feel like i'm lamenting. just pondering.

i'm looking for the former description. can't men be organizing separately from women on these issues? in constant communication with the feminist movement, but separately? it'd seem like a positive experience to have a male movement that espoused the values of feminism, but focused on helping men make that a reality. shouldn't it be our job to teach ourselves about rape culture? to have other men who understand what it's like to be defensive and angry explain to young men what sexism really is? or are men not capable of doing so without having their privilege run amok?

i guess i'm wondering why it can't also be male-positive. i understand that society is already defaulted to males, but why can't males who are trying to overcome this shit create a positive identity for themselves separate from the one society has placed upon them?

Quote from: Pixie on August 06, 2012, 12:11:39 AM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:43:54 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 11:33:57 PM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

really?

I guess it depends on what you want the movement for. Is it for equality? Egalitarianism? The rights of men to be on level footing with women, to show their emotions, to be nurturing, and to be loving and engaged fathers, partners, and sons? That one's called "feminism".

If you're looking for one that reinforces men's position of privilege in Western society, I think that one's called "The Tea Party".

I'm not sure what you're going for, here, but your lament kind of reminds me of the lament that there's no such channel as White Entertainment Television. There is; it's called "all of the rest of them."

Males, particularly white males, already have the biggest, most solid support group there is, and it's called "society".

I always felt that in a heteronormative homosocial society that consent education for guys could be done brilliantly by men allied to the feminist movement, and might have more chance of getting through to young men, maybe combining it with sports teams and mentorship. There's an organisation called A Call To All Men that does a similar thing , and the founder did an awesome TED talk.

I think I've seen that and it was brilliant.

Most men don't know intuitively that feminism is about equality not just women's rights, or just how well a variety of gender issues are represented by feminism. I used to have a bit of an interest in the men's rights stuff but having a solid understanding of feminism renders it pretty surpurfluous.

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 12:21:59 AM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:43:54 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 11:33:57 PM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

really?

I guess it depends on what you want the movement for. Is it for equality? Egalitarianism? The rights of men to be on level footing with women, to show their emotions, to be nurturing, and to be loving and engaged fathers, partners, and sons? That one's called "feminism".

If you're looking for one that reinforces men's position of privilege in Western society, I think that one's called "The Tea Party".

I'm not sure what you're going for, here, but your lament kind of reminds me of the lament that there's no such channel as White Entertainment Television. There is; it's called "all of the rest of them."

Males, particularly white males, already have the biggest, most solid support group there is, and it's called "society".

i don't feel like i'm lamenting. just pondering.

i'm looking for the former description. can't men be organizing separately from women on these issues? in constant communication with the feminist movement, but separately? it'd seem like a positive experience to have a male movement that espoused the values of feminism, but focused on helping men make that a reality. shouldn't it be our job to teach ourselves about rape culture? to have other men who understand what it's like to be defensive and angry explain to young men what sexism really is? or are men not capable of doing so without having their privilege run amok?

i guess i'm wondering why it can't also be male-positive. i understand that society is already defaulted to males, but why can't males who are trying to overcome this shit create a positive identity for themselves separate from the one society has placed upon them?

Smoke, I've asked all the same questions. In the end, all those ideas are genuinely represented by feminism which IS a male positive ideology.

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 12:21:59 AM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:43:54 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 11:33:57 PM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

really?

I guess it depends on what you want the movement for. Is it for equality? Egalitarianism? The rights of men to be on level footing with women, to show their emotions, to be nurturing, and to be loving and engaged fathers, partners, and sons? That one's called "feminism".

If you're looking for one that reinforces men's position of privilege in Western society, I think that one's called "The Tea Party".

I'm not sure what you're going for, here, but your lament kind of reminds me of the lament that there's no such channel as White Entertainment Television. There is; it's called "all of the rest of them."

Males, particularly white males, already have the biggest, most solid support group there is, and it's called "society".

i don't feel like i'm lamenting. just pondering.

i'm looking for the former description. can't men be organizing separately from women on these issues? in constant communication with the feminist movement, but separately? it'd seem like a positive experience to have a male movement that espoused the values of feminism, but focused on helping men make that a reality. shouldn't it be our job to teach ourselves about rape culture? to have other men who understand what it's like to be defensive and angry explain to young men what sexism really is? or are men not capable of doing so without having their privilege run amok?

i guess i'm wondering why it can't also be male-positive. i understand that society is already defaulted to males, but why can't males who are trying to overcome this shit create a positive identity for themselves separate from the one society has placed upon them?

It *is* male positive. Feminism is not about punishing someone for their gender or sex or both. And why would you want a separate group to work with feminists, except to feel special about being a decent human being? (this is, btw, an instance of your privilege showing, imo)
Yes, it is your job to teach yourself about rape culture but you can do that working as part of the feminist movement (and yes, you can talk to other cis dudes about feminism and fight back against sexism without your privilege showing)

Eh, this is sort of what I mean by the reaction some men have to the word.
It's a simple matter of it sounding, well, FEMinine. I can see why Smog and other would take it that way.

I feel time that is spent explaining, "Oh know, you see, while it SOUNDS like it's for women, it's for everyone." could be better put to use with more relevant issues. Then again, maybe it's a good hurdle for people to cross, and perhaps it brings about important arguments all on its own.

But I wouldn't go around being surprised when you have to explain it constantly. Personally, I hate doing that, repeating myself.

Garbo: whats cis? And is asexuality an orientation in the traditional sense? Or just a general disinterest in sex.

Agree that for the propose of curriculum, just taking on sexuality as a catch all term is good.

The feminism discussion is interesting but beyond ' each partners needs matter' not so relevant to sex ed. I know I was on that particular derailment too.

The hygine stuff is great, I never considered it. Also Pixies lesbian safe sex stuff (though really most of the bits involved are probably still relevant to a hetero relationship.)

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 06, 2012, 12:31:24 AM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 12:21:59 AM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:43:54 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 11:33:57 PM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

really?

I guess it depends on what you want the movement for. Is it for equality? Egalitarianism? The rights of men to be on level footing with women, to show their emotions, to be nurturing, and to be loving and engaged fathers, partners, and sons? That one's called "feminism".

If you're looking for one that reinforces men's position of privilege in Western society, I think that one's called "The Tea Party".

I'm not sure what you're going for, here, but your lament kind of reminds me of the lament that there's no such channel as White Entertainment Television. There is; it's called "all of the rest of them."

Males, particularly white males, already have the biggest, most solid support group there is, and it's called "society".

i don't feel like i'm lamenting. just pondering.

i'm looking for the former description. can't men be organizing separately from women on these issues? in constant communication with the feminist movement, but separately? it'd seem like a positive experience to have a male movement that espoused the values of feminism, but focused on helping men make that a reality. shouldn't it be our job to teach ourselves about rape culture? to have other men who understand what it's like to be defensive and angry explain to young men what sexism really is? or are men not capable of doing so without having their privilege run amok?

i guess i'm wondering why it can't also be male-positive. i understand that society is already defaulted to males, but why can't males who are trying to overcome this shit create a positive identity for themselves separate from the one society has placed upon them?

It *is* male positive. Feminism is not about punishing someone for their gender or sex or both. And why would you want a separate group to work with feminists, except to feel special about being a decent human being? (this is, btw, an instance of your privilege showing, imo)
Yes, it is your job to teach yourself about rape culture but you can do that working as part of the feminist movement (and yes, you can talk to other cis dudes about feminism and fight back against sexism without your privilege showing)

can you explain the bit about feeling special about being a decent human being? i feel like i just want a separate identity here. i'm only allowed in the feminist movement as an ally. the rest of society while granting me immense amounts of privilege isn't down with the identity i want to create. can't i just be part of a group of similar people so we can all say 'i know that feel bro' to each other? i guess i just don't understand why if feminism is both female and male positive, and there's no other space needed to discuss these topics, that it has to be named after females and i can only be an ally? maybe i'm feeling defensive that i'm losing the spotlight or something, but i think having to find my male identity in a movement named after a different identity bothers me.

yeah and i see that i'm derailing the sex-ed stuff here. apologies. but this is helpful to me if that means anything to anyone.

Quote from: Placid Dingo on August 06, 2012, 12:41:42 AM
Garbo: whats cis? And is asexuality an orientation in the traditional sense? Or just a general disinterest in sex.

Agree that for the propose of curriculum, just taking on sexuality as a catch all term is good.

The feminism discussion is interesting but beyond ' each partners needs matter' not so relevant to sex ed. I know I was on that particular derailment too.

The hygine stuff is great, I never considered it. Also Pixies lesbian safe sex stuff (though really most of the bits involved are probably still relevant to a hetero relationship.)

Cis is just straight. Born male or female, identify that way, etc.

Its just the name. Thats all. It's as restricted to females as the Australian Liberal Party is restricted to Liberals. (They're a conservative party). All the issues you seem to be interested in come under the umbrella of feminism.

Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on August 06, 2012, 12:52:43 AM

Quote from: Placid Dingo on August 06, 2012, 12:41:42 AM
Garbo: whats cis? And is asexuality an orientation in the traditional sense? Or just a general disinterest in sex.

Agree that for the propose of curriculum, just taking on sexuality as a catch all term is good.

The feminism discussion is interesting but beyond ' each partners needs matter' not so relevant to sex ed. I know I was on that particular derailment too.

The hygine stuff is great, I never considered it. Also Pixies lesbian safe sex stuff (though really most of the bits involved are probably still relevant to a hetero relationship.)

Cis is just straight. Born male or female, identify that way, etc.

Cheers.

Quote from: Placid Dingo on August 06, 2012, 12:41:42 AM
Garbo: whats cis? And is asexuality an orientation in the traditional sense? Or just a general disinterest in sex.

"Cis" describes people whose "expected" gender matches the body they were born with - a man born in a male body or a woman born in a female body. Everyone else is some flavor of trans*.
Asexuality is an orientation, yes. SFAIU, anyway. Although there's graduations of it, too. Here's an overview. (http://www.asexuality.org/home/overview.html)

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 12:50:30 AM
can you explain the bit about feeling special about being a decent human being? i feel like i just want a separate identity here. i'm only allowed in the feminist movement as an ally. the rest of society while granting me immense amounts of privilege isn't down with the identity i want to create. can't i just be part of a group of similar people so we can all say 'i know that feel bro' to each other? i guess i just don't understand why if feminism is both female and male positive, and there's no other space needed to discuss these topics, that it has to be named after females and i can only be an ally? maybe i'm feeling defensive that i'm losing the spotlight or something, but i think having to find my male identity in a movement named after a different identity bothers me.

"I want to be separate from feminists because I'm a dude even though I want to do the same thing" - this is what I'm hearing.
When we say "ally" we mean supporter. It's just that you need to defer to women/females in situations related to feminism and that you don't get to determine what "feminism" means. A further discussion of what it means to be an ally should probably go in another thread.
The "loosing the spotlight" is privilege you should probably check if you want to be a decent person. And don't find your male identity in feminism - that's a loosing game. Instead, feminism should be part of your identity.

ok, so this is starting to clear up for me, or so it seems. i'm hearing (yes i may have bad hearing) a couple (what i see as) contradictory things.

1. feminism is female and male positive and there's no reason to seek a male positive movement outside of it
2. defer to females about situations related to feminism / feminism is not up to me

i get that feminism isn't about me and that i should defer to females regarding feminist matters. yes feminism should be part of my male identity.

then why is it not necessary to have a male positive movement outside of feminism?

Society is already inherently male positive. It's basically like insisting that heterosexuals need a heterosexual-positive movement.

Dude needs to read up on the concept of Kyriarchy.

Just saying.

Id suggest as with any ideology, read up on it where possible. Then you can assert your own views where they are consistent, and express clearly where you differ. Again though I think most make issues are covered well enough by the general school of thought in feminism that a separate branch of male ideology is unneeded.

Nobody is required to take any ideology 100% as absolute truth.

this i realize. male behavior that discourages men from being assholes to each other and women is usually not rewarded by society. i don't see the harm in having a space away from the mainstream and separate from (but cooperative with) feminism where males can encourage each other to be good males. am i being privileged here?

anyway i'm done. i'll go read and think some more. as Dingo and Pixie have suggested.

i appreciate the conversation

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 01:53:16 AM
ok, so this is starting to clear up for me, or so it seems. i'm hearing (yes i may have bad hearing) a couple (what i see as) contradictory things.

1. feminism is female and male positive and there's no reason to seek a male positive movement outside of it
2. defer to females about situations related to feminism / feminism is not up to me

i get that feminism isn't about me and that i should defer to females regarding feminist matters. yes feminism should be part of my male identity.

then why is it not necessary to have a male positive movement outside of feminism?

Because, as I understand it, "Feminism" isn't about "women," either, it's about equality. It will tend to look "pro-woman" when the prevailing culture is male-dominant, because it must boost the power and prestige of women in order to achieve some kind of equality. If everything else was equal, there would be no need for feminism at all, even for women. Until you find a scenario where it makes sense to fight for equality by fighting for men's rights, it's unnecessary to latch on to a "male-positive" movement.

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 02:22:00 AM
this i realize. male behavior that discourages men from being assholes to each other and women is usually not rewarded by society. i don't see the harm in having a space away from the mainstream and separate from (but cooperative with) feminism where males can encourage each other to be good males. am i being privileged here?

anyway i'm done. i'll go read and think some more. as Dingo and Pixie have suggested.

i appreciate the conversation

You might also want to check out the Good Men Project blog, and also Manboobz

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 12:21:59 AM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:43:54 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 11:33:57 PM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 05, 2012, 11:01:47 PM

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 05, 2012, 10:52:59 PM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 05, 2012, 08:28:05 PM
We live in a heterosexist society (which is to say that only heterosexual relationships are considered natural and normal), so I would actually support discussing the queer community.
Also trans* people are not a sexuality, since it's about sex and gender and various ways people are not cis (man born in a male body, woman born in a female body), which is worth mentioning I think (because, horray, cissexism).


I think your privilege may be showing (although I'm glad you realized that that was a possibility! You are definitely looking like a biped). Cis men are 100% welcome in feminism (as allies, since you are not and never have been actually one of us), so far as most feminists are concerned, but women/females need a movement of their own for the same reason queers, POC, etc. do. We're not the dominant paradigm and need a movement in order to do the work.
Also, not our problem if men can't get behind the term 'feminism'.

yeah. i guess it would be silly to call it anything other than feminism. maybe i'm just wishing that there was a decent men's movement for men to get behind that wasn't so anti-women? i like being an ally though. it's a hat i wear, although i don't belong to any formal groups. really made me identify with being a white hetero cis-male (instead of assuming i'm the default or something) for the first time and start trying to accept all the bullshit that comes with that.

There is one, it's called "feminism".

really?

I guess it depends on what you want the movement for. Is it for equality? Egalitarianism? The rights of men to be on level footing with women, to show their emotions, to be nurturing, and to be loving and engaged fathers, partners, and sons? That one's called "feminism".

If you're looking for one that reinforces men's position of privilege in Western society, I think that one's called "The Tea Party".

I'm not sure what you're going for, here, but your lament kind of reminds me of the lament that there's no such channel as White Entertainment Television. There is; it's called "all of the rest of them."

Males, particularly white males, already have the biggest, most solid support group there is, and it's called "society".

i don't feel like i'm lamenting. just pondering.

i'm looking for the former description. can't men be organizing separately from women on these issues? in constant communication with the feminist movement, but separately? it'd seem like a positive experience to have a male movement that espoused the values of feminism, but focused on helping men make that a reality. shouldn't it be our job to teach ourselves about rape culture? to have other men who understand what it's like to be defensive and angry explain to young men what sexism really is? or are men not capable of doing so without having their privilege run amok?

i guess i'm wondering why it can't also be male-positive. i understand that society is already defaulted to males, but why can't males who are trying to overcome this shit create a positive identity for themselves separate from the one society has placed upon them?

Feminism is NOT A FEMALE MOVEMENT. It has, as core issues, the problems surrounding the subjugation of women in society; that's what it sprang from. Feminism, to be effective, requires men and women to both be feminists. Maybe at some point the movement will find a new name, but for now that's what it's called.

A movement that wanted equality for men and women, but was exclusive to men, is as absurd as a movement calling for equality for blacks and whites, but is exclusive to whites. That movement exists; you may know it as "Separate But Equal". Perhaps you can see what I'm getting at.

Also, since at the fundamental core of rape culture lies the problem of men not listening to women, the idea of a men's movement wherein men define and explain rape to each other without including women in that dialogue is, IMO, just more of the same.

The movement must be inclusive, or it doesn't work.

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 06, 2012, 02:05:23 AM
Society is already inherently male positive.

Well, yes and no.  It's inherently male positive so long as men act in accordance with patriarchical values.

One of the most interesting areas of feminist thinking, to me, is how patriarchical societies constrain men as well as they do women, and I strongly suspect if there was a greater focus on this, it would get a lot of guys who might otherwise be not so interested in feminism thinking about how such things impact on them personally.

Quote from: Cain on August 06, 2012, 02:28:19 AM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 06, 2012, 02:05:23 AM
Society is already inherently male positive.

Well, yes and no.  It's inherently male positive so long as men act in accordance with patriarchical values.

One of the most interesting areas of feminist thinking, to me, is how patriarchical societies constrain men as well as they do women, and I strongly suspect if there was a greater focus on this, it would get a lot of guys who might otherwise be not so interested in feminism thinking about how such things impact on them personally.

I agree completely.

I want you to think about it this way:

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 02:22:00 AM
this i realize. white behavior that discourages whites from being assholes to each other and blacks is usually not rewarded by society. i don't see the harm in having a space away from the mainstream and separate from (but cooperative with) blacks where whites can encourage each other to be good whites. am i being privileged here?

At the heart of it, isn't your objection that you don't want to join a movement that's about them... you want it to be about you?

It is understandable to want a movement that's about you, but in the end, if it has the same goals and objectives as feminism, and works cooperatively with feminism, its is inevitably, particularly historically, going to be seen as a subset of feminism. I'm not sure why you don't want that.

Quote from: Cain on August 06, 2012, 02:28:19 AM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 06, 2012, 02:05:23 AM
Society is already inherently male positive.

Well, yes and no.  It's inherently male positive so long as men act in accordance with patriarchical values.

One of the most interesting areas of feminist thinking, to me, is how patriarchical societies constrain men as well as they do women, and I strongly suspect if there was a greater focus on this, it would get a lot of guys who might otherwise be not so interested in feminism thinking about how such things impact on them personally.

Fair point.

i feel like i'm coming across as a bigoted asshole. i have no problem being a feminist. all i'm trying to say is that i can't derive my male identity from the movement because i'm only an ally to it. that means it's female-centric and it should be. yes, it deals with females and males, but not the totality of what it means to be male. and as GARBO pointed out, it is silly to derive my identity from it. well then where else should i look to find a space to express and discover a good positive male identity?

i've heard of white anti-racist spaces and i hear they're successful. of course they don't organize without input from the people of color community and a solid understanding of racism. but it's a place to go to if you're white to learn from other whites on how you're probably racist, how that feels to you as a white person, and how not to be such an ass.

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 12:21:59 AM


i'm looking for the former description. can't men be organizing separately from women on these issues?

Why?  It's the same issue.

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 03:05:54 AM
i feel like i'm coming across as a bigoted asshole. i have no problem being a feminist. all i'm trying to say is that i can't derive my male identity from the movement because i'm only an ally to it.

Male identity?

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 06, 2012, 02:44:50 AM
I want you to think about it this way:

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 02:22:00 AM
this i realize. white behavior that discourages whites from being assholes to each other and blacks is usually not rewarded by society. i don't see the harm in having a space away from the mainstream and separate from (but cooperative with) blacks where whites can encourage each other to be good whites. am i being privileged here?

At the heart of it, isn't your objection that you don't want to join a movement that's about them... you want it to be about you?

It is understandable to want a movement that's about you, but in the end, if it has the same goals and objectives as feminism, and works cooperatively with feminism, its is inevitably, particularly historically, going to be seen as a subset of feminism. I'm not sure why you don't want that.

That does it.

I'm starting Rogerism.  I'm sick of The Man trying to KEEP ME DOWN.

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 03:05:54 AM
i feel like i'm coming across as a bigoted asshole. i have no problem being a feminist. all i'm trying to say is that i can't derive my male identity from the movement because i'm only an ally to it. that means it's female-centric and it should be. yes, it deals with females and males, but not the totality of what it means to be male. and as GARBO pointed out, it is silly to derive my identity from it. well then where else should i look to find a space to express and discover a good positive male identity?

i've heard of white anti-racist spaces and i hear they're successful. of course they don't organize without input from the people of color community and a solid understanding of racism. but it's a place to go to if you're white to learn from other whites on how you're probably racist, how that feels to you as a white person, and how not to be such an ass.

What you're saying about "male identity" is coming across as gibberish. Would you derive your "male identity" from any club or movement? I would think you would derive it from being the totality of who you are as a male. And that could include being a feminist. Lots of men, and in fact pretty much all of the men I know, identify as feminists.

So, you seem to be saying that you want a male feminist space that is organized with female input and a solid understanding of sexism; a place to go if you're male to learn from other males on how you're probably sexist, and how not to be such an ass. Do I hear you correctly?

Because if that is the case, you can call it whatever you want, and everybody is going to simply, correctly, identify it as a subset of feminism. Humans are really good at making connections like that.

You could always just join the legions of men who identify as feminists, if you wanted to skip a couple steps and join an established movement with millions of members. You could even talk to the guys, like maybe the ones here who keep trying to explain this to you.

Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on August 06, 2012, 03:28:09 AM

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 06, 2012, 02:44:50 AM
I want you to think about it this way:

Quote from: SmogofCogs on August 06, 2012, 02:22:00 AM
this i realize. white behavior that discourages whites from being assholes to each other and blacks is usually not rewarded by society. i don't see the harm in having a space away from the mainstream and separate from (but cooperative with) blacks where whites can encourage each other to be good whites. am i being privileged here?

At the heart of it, isn't your objection that you don't want to join a movement that's about them... you want it to be about you?

It is understandable to want a movement that's about you, but in the end, if it has the same goals and objectives as feminism, and works cooperatively with feminism, its is inevitably, particularly historically, going to be seen as a subset of feminism. I'm not sure why you don't want that.

That does it.

I'm starting Rogerism.  I'm sick of The Man trying to KEEP ME DOWN.

:lulz:

ROGERS UNITE!



You don't need one source for an identity. IME, actual people draw their identity from many sources but are more than the sum of those parts.
Otherwise you're an empty uniform.


/tangent

That's sort of what is coming across to me:  This guy, as smart as he seems, is looking for a uniform, and thinks we are wearing uniforms (the kind that get tatooed on your body), but what he isn't getting is that it isn't about uniforms, it's about people.

Or something.  That actually sounds kind of dumb, but does anyone else see what I'm trying to say?

Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on August 06, 2012, 04:22:40 AM
That's sort of what is coming across to me:  This guy, as smart as he seems, is looking for a uniform, and thinks we are wearing uniforms (the kind that get tatooed on your body), but what he isn't getting is that it isn't about uniforms, it's about people.

Or something.  That actually sounds kind of dumb, but does anyone else see what I'm trying to say?

yes, I think I do.

Ditto.


Also, going back to the OP, here: http://thesexuneducated.tumblr.com/post/27248456432/11-things-that-should-actually-be-in-sex-ed-classes

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 06, 2012, 05:44:51 AM
Ditto.


Also, going back to the OP, here: http://thesexuneducated.tumblr.com/post/27248456432/11-things-that-should-actually-be-in-sex-ed-classes

While I like some of that in theory, I started this thread after I realised in the Reddit thread that the question of what consent looks like isn't always understood. This is all very high level stuff at the link. Probably too high for a fundamental sexual education course I suspect.

One thing that may make consent even harder to spot is that people can be in two minds about something, especially sex. When you want sex but don't want to want sex how is the other supposed to read that? (the correct answer, ofcourse, is 'he/she is confused, that counts as a not now')

Quote from: :regret: on August 06, 2012, 06:18:16 AM
One thing that may make consent even harder to spot is that people can be in two minds about something, especially sex. When you want sex but don't want to want sex how is the other supposed to read that? (the correct answer, ofcourse, is 'he/she is confused, that counts as a not now')

Or 'ask'.

Quote from: :regret: on August 06, 2012, 06:18:16 AM
One thing that may make consent even harder to spot is that people can be in two minds about something, especially sex. When you want sex but don't want to want sex how is the other supposed to read that? (the correct answer, ofcourse, is 'he/she is confused, that counts as a not now')

Part of the problem is that consent shouldn't be something you "spot". You don't need to read someone's nonverbal cues for consent; that's what we have language for.

Quote from: Placid Dingo on August 06, 2012, 06:22:08 AM

Quote from: :regret: on August 06, 2012, 06:18:16 AM
One thing that may make consent even harder to spot is that people can be in two minds about something, especially sex. When you want sex but don't want to want sex how is the other supposed to read that? (the correct answer, ofcourse, is 'he/she is confused, that counts as a not now')

Or 'ask'.

In other words, this.  :lol:

Hah! agreed.
Not everyone is good at the whole talking thing though, i prefer to improve both skillsets.

Quote from: :regret: on August 06, 2012, 07:10:33 AM
Hah! agreed.
Not everyone is good at the whole talking thing though, i prefer to improve both skillsets.

You don't have to be good at talking. All you have to be capable of is grunting out "this OK?" before sticking your hand down her pants.

Ideally, yeah, everyone should be pretty skilled at reading body language and be able to tell whether someone is totally into it, or is going along reluctantly. But assuming you're reading it right, especially the first time, is no replacement for a verbal check-in. For anyone who thinks that's contrived, I don't think I've ever had a guy NOT verbally check in, except for when they were raping me. For that matter, the first few times with a guy, I usually ask whether what I'm doing to them is OK. Because it's better to know than to guess.

Quote from: Dear Departed Uncle Nigel on August 06, 2012, 07:53:23 AM

Quote from: :regret: on August 06, 2012, 07:10:33 AM
Hah! agreed.
Not everyone is good at the whole talking thing though, i prefer to improve both skillsets.

You don't have to be good at talking. All you have to be capable of is grunting out "this OK?" before sticking your hand down her pants.

Ideally, yeah, everyone should be pretty skilled at reading body language and be able to tell whether someone is totally into it, or is going along reluctantly. But assuming you're reading it right, especially the first time, is no replacement for a verbal check-in. For anyone who thinks that's contrived, I don't think I've ever had a guy NOT verbally check in, except for when they were raping me. For that matter, the first few times with a guy, I usually ask whether what I'm doing to them is OK. Because it's better to know than to guess.

You make a very important point that should definitely be in the PD Sex Ed handbook.

This turned out to be an interesting and complex little thread!
Posting to keep posted.
Will dispense thoughts as they reach proper fermentation, probably later tonight.

Quote from: Cain on August 06, 2012, 02:28:19 AM

Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on August 06, 2012, 02:05:23 AM
Society is already inherently male positive.

Well, yes and no.  It's inherently male positive so long as men act in accordance with patriarchical values.

One of the most interesting areas of feminist thinking, to me, is how patriarchical societies constrain men as well as they do women, and I strongly suspect if there was a greater focus on this, it would get a lot of guys who might otherwise be not so interested in feminism thinking about how such things impact on them personally.

Cain makes an excellent point, one that BH, the Master Of Squick made a new thread for, but I'm all "PLEDGE!" on that guy. I still want a discussion on how Patriarchy constrains men, so shall we move it back to this thread, or the one on Rape Culture? Or shall we start again on the topic with a new thread that doesn't have BH as the OP, so we can have a discussion about it that doesn't make us all feel creeped out?

Ideas? Suggestions?

New thread. Worth exploring sans Squick Master and threadjack.

Cool!