Because there is in mine.
We got a used washer and dryer last week, but I noticed a burning plastic smell whenever it was running. Sniffing around, I found a leaky joint in the pipe going into the cold side of the hot water heater. Being aware of this, I watched it as I started the dryer and saw a puff of smoke, and what looked like an electrical arc coming from underneath the white translucent plastic around the valve.
Apparently, the current was enough to burn through the Teflon tape, or some other piece of plastic that breaks the continuity of the metal pipe and cause the leak. I've temporarily bridged the joint with a piece of copper wire to keep it from damaging the joint any more, and we now have a house rule against running the dryer while someone is in the shower.
Just now, I broke the link on one side of the copper wire, and stuck a piece of steel wool in between the wire and the pipe. This was the result:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88xlL-8eMAM&feature=plcp
Also, with the voltmeter I get max voltage of 8-9 volts accross the valve.
The dryer is on a separate breaker from the water heater, and I get the same result even when the breaker for the water heater is shut off.
I shut off both breakers, and tested the resistance between the neutral of the dryer outlet and the case of the water heater and found a fraction of an ohm between them. I suspect that something is up with the connection to neutral in the dryer outlet, or that it is simply grounded directly to the plumbing, which would be stupid, since ground isn't meant to carry load current like neutral is.
I also suspect that some section of the plumbing under the house is PVC, rather than copper, which is preventing a good ground.
SCIENCE!
One of your neighbors is an android that takes electromotive dumps.
Mystery solved.
This house is actually a duplex, and the water heater is right next to the wall between the, um... plexes, I guess.
I imagine that the neighbor's water heater is probably just on the other side of the wall, and I have wondered if there is any connection between plexes. We do have separate meters.
I'm betting you're right about the house, or at least one device in the house, being grounded directly to the plumbing, and about your suspicion that there's PVC somewhere in your plumbing. Call your landlord ASAP. Sound panicked.
Wow. Yeah, definitely call your landlord or what have you. That looks and sounds pretty damn dangerous.
Call, preferably before somebody flips a light switch while you're sitting on the john. :eek:
This is all excellent advice, I'm sure, but the mad scientist in me wants to wait until I can get my hands on a clamp meter so I can find out how much current is flowing through that pipe.
Whatever is wrong has been that way since we moved in a year ago. The only change is the dryer, which I am keeping shut off at the breaker when not in use, and we both know not to start the dryer while someone is in the shower.
I don't know if I actually have to comment on the fact that there is at least one other tenant in your building who may not be playing by the same rules.
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 11, 2012, 04:38:02 AM
This is all excellent advice, I'm sure, but the mad scientist in me wants to wait until I can get my hands on a clamp meter so I can find out how much current is flowing through that pipe.
Whatever is wrong has been that way since we moved in a year ago. The only change is the dryer, which I am keeping shut off at the breaker when not in use, and we both know not to start the dryer while someone is in the shower.
Are there separate water heaters? If so, you might want to ask your neighbor if you (or they) can see if theirs has the same problem. Either way, you should at least make them aware of the situation.
That's a good point, Nigel. I don't know how shit's connected down there.
Phox, the water heaters are separate, but who knows how or where the grounds are connected.
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 12, 2012, 04:41:34 AM
That's a good point, Nigel. I don't know how shit's connected down there.
Phox, the water heaters are separate, but who knows how or where the grounds are connected.
Righto. All the more reason to enlist your neighbor's cooperation. (besides more angry letters and phone calls being made, of course) :lulz:
Our landlord is a pretty nice guy, actually. Part of the reason I'm being all "scientific" about it is to try and help him fix the problem.
This is the second case of apparent ungrounded plumbing I've read this week.
The other involves getting shocked at the kitchen sink WHILE WATER WAS RUNNING. They thought it was "static." :aaa:
SCIENCE is all well and good, and I appreciate that you're documenting the results, but FOR FUCK'S SAKE, seriously get that fixed before you or your neighbor or someone else gets pretty hurt.
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 12, 2012, 09:12:22 AM
Our landlord is a pretty nice guy, actually. Part of the reason I'm being all "scientific" about it is to try and help him fix the problem.
The "scientific" method would be to
get a fucking electrician in there before it burns down and
somebody dies. FFS. Stop being a fucking idiot.
Also, if the place catches fire and it comes out that you knew about it and didn't report it, you could be held liable. If the landlord is a "pretty nice guy" stop fucking around with his investment. I had an ungrounded circuit in my house and it cost sixty bucks to fix it, which is a fuckton less than my insurance deductible if the place had caught on fire. Or funeral arrangements for my kids.
Quote from: CAKE on November 12, 2012, 07:17:49 PM
Also, if the place catches fire and it comes out that you knew about it and didn't report it, you could be held liable. If the landlord is a "pretty nice guy" stop fucking around with his investment. I had an ungrounded circuit in my house and it cost sixty bucks to fix it, which is a fuckton less than my insurance deductible if the place had caught on fire. Or funeral arrangements for my kids.
This.
FFS.
Emo Howard is apparently channeling Filthy Apprentice.
Landlord has been called. He's sending someone over to look at it.
I've checked the voltage on the pipe with the stove on, and there was just a few millivolts, which is probably just normal EM voltage from the pipe acting as an antenna. It seems to be coming only from the dryer, which we won't be using again until everything's fixed.
I guess now I'll never know how much current was flowing through that pipe. :cry:
I'm glad you did the right thing.
"How much current is flowing through that pipe" is not really a very interesting question, anyway.
That's because you don't know just enough about electricity to be dangerous, like I do.
Imagine someone with a Bachelor's in Biology discovering a nest of vipers under their house, and then wanting to find out exactly what species they are.
Or something like that.
Emo Howard: Twentysomething semester hours of classes on electricity, one chapter in one class on electrical safety.
Here's more on the subject in the form of a song by TMBG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKDE0Dgdkg4
They didn't have a single lick of electrical safety in my entire EE curriculum...
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 13, 2012, 09:00:37 PM
That's because you don't know just enough about electricity to be dangerous, like I do.
Imagine someone with a Bachelor's in Biology discovering a nest of vipers under their house, and then wanting to find out exactly what species they are.
Or something like that.
Emo Howard: Twentysomething semester hours of classes on electricity, one chapter in one class on electrical safety.
Here's more on the subject in the form of a song by TMBG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKDE0Dgdkg4
:lol: You might be surprised by how much I know about electricity, because I used to rewire things for a living. I would say that I know just enough to not be a hazard to myself or others. The training kind of emphasized safety, for liability reasons.
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 13, 2012, 09:14:39 PM
They didn't have a single lick of electrical safety in my entire EE curriculum...
On the other hand, I have lowly electricians working for me. I conduct safety classes every week.
EEs have no business anywhere near actual electricity. They should in fact hire people to flip light switches for them.
Asshole. :lol:
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 13, 2012, 09:38:41 PM
Asshole. :lol:
No, I am not an asshole. MARK TWAIN was an asshole. Look what he does to Fenimore Cooper, a fellow author.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Fenimore_Cooper%27s_Literary_Offences
will read tonight.
haven't ever read anything by Clemens that wasn't awesome.
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 13, 2012, 09:14:39 PM
They didn't have a single lick of electrical safety in my entire EE curriculum...
I had an entire class on industrial safety, but electrical safety was just one chapter.
I'm not an EE, though. I'm a "Technologist". I'm not even eligible to take the PE exam.
Quote from: CAKE on November 13, 2012, 09:18:52 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 13, 2012, 09:00:37 PM
That's because you don't know just enough about electricity to be dangerous, like I do.
Imagine someone with a Bachelor's in Biology discovering a nest of vipers under their house, and then wanting to find out exactly what species they are.
Or something like that.
Emo Howard: Twentysomething semester hours of classes on electricity, one chapter in one class on electrical safety.
Here's more on the subject in the form of a song by TMBG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKDE0Dgdkg4
:lol: You might be surprised by how much I know about electricity, because I used to rewire things for a living. I would say that I know just enough to not be a hazard to myself or others. The training kind of emphasized safety, for liability reasons.
Really? Because I could tell you the counter-EMF of a 4 conductor DC motor turning at 600 RPM with 100 mWb of flux per pole (eventually, after consulting a book or two), but I couldn't tell you if it is normal for a house to be wired with neutral connected to ground, which mine is, apparently.
Is that normal? It doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 14, 2012, 09:48:17 AM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 13, 2012, 09:14:39 PM
They didn't have a single lick of electrical safety in my entire EE curriculum...
I had an entire class on industrial safety, but electrical safety was just one chapter.
I'm not an EE, though. I'm a "Technologist". I'm not even eligible to take the PE exam.
Good. A PE makes you dumb. I'm not sure how that works.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2012, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 14, 2012, 09:48:17 AM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 13, 2012, 09:14:39 PM
They didn't have a single lick of electrical safety in my entire EE curriculum...
I had an entire class on industrial safety, but electrical safety was just one chapter.
I'm not an EE, though. I'm a "Technologist". I'm not even eligible to take the PE exam.
Good. A PE makes you dumb. I'm not sure how that works.
i'm thinking the reason is that engineering disproportionately gets SGitRs. you give them a paper that tells them they're 'smart', and they get cocky. you give them a test that says they're
really 'smart', and they won't listen to nobody. even that electrician with 50 fucking years of experience who's telling them they're about to get a nice jolt if they keep doing what they're doing.
and, like they say....
you can always tell an engineer; you just can't tell 'em much.
but also, generalizations are generalizations, generally.
Emo: what's the deal with technologist degree? what's the curriculum difference with engineering, and what's the advantage?
also, i'm not a power guy, but the practice of connecting ground to neutral has always seemed convoluted to me. my uncle's an electrician, and when i asked him, he agreed that a straight answer will always miss stuff, regardless of NEC, and that it really is clear as mud.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2012, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 14, 2012, 09:48:17 AM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 13, 2012, 09:14:39 PM
They didn't have a single lick of electrical safety in my entire EE curriculum...
I had an entire class on industrial safety, but electrical safety was just one chapter.
I'm not an EE, though. I'm a "Technologist". I'm not even eligible to take the PE exam.
Good. A PE makes you dumb. I'm not sure how that works.
The landlord's daughter-in-law just came out with an electrician and his son.
His tester stopped working, and he couldn't figure out my multimeter. It was getting milivolt readings from the air, and he couldn't figure out why he was getting a reading when he wasn't touching anything, so he licked his wrists and started touching them to pipes. He told me if there was anything to worry about, he would be able to feel it.
He pulled a screw off a metal plate and cleaned it. He said sometimes they get dirty and don't make good contact, and then you lose your ground.
He seemed satisfied that this solved the problem.
What do you think? Could he have been a PE?
I didn't ask.
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 14, 2012, 02:36:48 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2012, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 14, 2012, 09:48:17 AM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 13, 2012, 09:14:39 PM
They didn't have a single lick of electrical safety in my entire EE curriculum...
I had an entire class on industrial safety, but electrical safety was just one chapter.
I'm not an EE, though. I'm a "Technologist". I'm not even eligible to take the PE exam.
Good. A PE makes you dumb. I'm not sure how that works.
i'm thinking the reason is that engineering disproportionately gets SGitRs. you give them a paper that tells them they're 'smart', and they get cocky. you give them a test that says they're really 'smart', and they won't listen to nobody. even that electrician with 50 fucking years of experience who's telling them they're about to get a nice jolt if they keep doing what they're doing.
and, like they say....
you can always tell an engineer; you just can't tell 'em much.
but also, generalizations are generalizations, generally.
Emo: what's the deal with technologist degree? what's the curriculum difference with engineering, and what's the advantage?
also, i'm not a power guy, but the practice of connecting ground to neutral has always seemed convoluted to me. my uncle's an electrician, and when i asked him, he agreed that a straight answer will always miss stuff, regardless of NEC, and that it really is clear as mud.
LOLIDUNNOLOL!
I was told I would be a step up from a technician, but lower than an actual engineer. As far as I can tell, they took a 2 year technician degree and added a bunch of electives to make it take 4 years.
I think the biggest difference is that there is less math than an engineering degree, and more french literature than a technician degree.
Also, I did some research and it seems ground connected to neutral at the box is good, anywhere else is bad.
yeah, i think NEC says they are required to be at the panel, but i've seen (and my uncle says it's done all over the place) for it to be tied elsewhere. ground loops are bad i thought, but apparently there are some reasons why they are sometimes desirable. (not that those reasons account for most of the times it's done) i dunno....
re. your DMM, don't they all do that? i mean they're going to pick up anything in the air. if you short the leads it drops to 0000, right?
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 14, 2012, 07:45:12 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2012, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 14, 2012, 09:48:17 AM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 13, 2012, 09:14:39 PM
They didn't have a single lick of electrical safety in my entire EE curriculum...
I had an entire class on industrial safety, but electrical safety was just one chapter.
I'm not an EE, though. I'm a "Technologist". I'm not even eligible to take the PE exam.
Good. A PE makes you dumb. I'm not sure how that works.
The landlord's daughter-in-law just came out with an electrician and his son.
His tester stopped working, and he couldn't figure out my multimeter. It was getting milivolt readings from the air, and he couldn't figure out why he was getting a reading when he wasn't touching anything, so he licked his wrists and started touching them to pipes. He told me if there was anything to worry about, he would be able to feel it.
He pulled a screw off a metal plate and cleaned it. He said sometimes they get dirty and don't make good contact, and then you lose your ground.
He seemed satisfied that this solved the problem.
What do you think? Could he have been a PE?
I didn't ask.
Uh, that doesn't sound very reassuring.
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 14, 2012, 02:36:48 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2012, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 14, 2012, 09:48:17 AM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 13, 2012, 09:14:39 PM
They didn't have a single lick of electrical safety in my entire EE curriculum...
I had an entire class on industrial safety, but electrical safety was just one chapter.
I'm not an EE, though. I'm a "Technologist". I'm not even eligible to take the PE exam.
Good. A PE makes you dumb. I'm not sure how that works.
i'm thinking the reason is that engineering disproportionately gets SGitRs. you give them a paper that tells them they're 'smart', and they get cocky. you give them a test that says they're really 'smart', and they won't listen to nobody. even that electrician with 50 fucking years of experience who's telling them they're about to get a nice jolt if they keep doing what they're doing.
and, like they say....
you can always tell an engineer; you just can't tell 'em much.
but also, generalizations are generalizations, generally.
Emo: what's the deal with technologist degree? what's the curriculum difference with engineering, and what's the advantage?
also, i'm not a power guy, but the practice of connecting ground to neutral has always seemed convoluted to me. my uncle's an electrician, and when i asked him, he agreed that a straight answer will always miss stuff, regardless of NEC, and that it really is clear as mud.
Did I ever tell the story of the electrician who wired my water heater and furnace at my old house? He flipped the breaker, did some work, wrapped up for the day, went home, didn't turn the breaker back on or mention shit to me, so I turned it on SO I COULD USE MY HOUSE AND PREPARE DINNER FOR THE KIDS, and he came back in the next day, started working... and almost fried himself TO DEATH because he didn't turn the breaker off again. :lol: Had the nerve to yell at me, too, for turning it on. I yelled right back at him.
Dumbass. :lulz:
:lol:
oshi!
it's a good thing he hadn't gone to engineering school, or he would've managed to burn down your house, right?
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 14, 2012, 10:01:45 PM
:lol:
oshi!
it's a good thing he hadn't gone to engineering school, or he would've managed to burn down your house, right?
No, but he could very easily have drawn up a fantastic capital expense plan for studying the feasibility of burning the house down. Then he'd fuck off to a convention in Hamburg and let some day labor arsonists handle it while he figured out how to get 500 Euro prostitutes to fit into his expense form.
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 14, 2012, 08:45:55 PM
yeah, i think NEC says they are required to be at the panel, but i've seen (and my uncle says it's done all over the place) for it to be tied elsewhere. ground loops are bad i thought, but apparently there are some reasons why they are sometimes desirable. (not that those reasons account for most of the times it's done) i dunno....
re. your DMM, don't they all do that? i mean they're going to pick up anything in the air. if you short the leads it drops to 0000, right?
Yeah. He probably just wasn't used to my DMM. His probably doesn't do mV, maybe tenths or hundredths. Also, that corner isn't very well lit, and the volt/millivolt indicator is fairly small.
I should have a clamp meter by this weekend. Maybe that will tell me something. Either way, I'm not assuming the problem has been solved, but I do feel absolved of any liability for anything that might happen due to running the dryer now.
And I still have a heightened sense of awareness for any weirdness involving electricity or plumbing in the house.
Quote from: CAKE on November 14, 2012, 09:34:45 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 14, 2012, 07:45:12 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 14, 2012, 02:03:43 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on November 14, 2012, 09:48:17 AM
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on November 13, 2012, 09:14:39 PM
They didn't have a single lick of electrical safety in my entire EE curriculum...
I had an entire class on industrial safety, but electrical safety was just one chapter.
I'm not an EE, though. I'm a "Technologist". I'm not even eligible to take the PE exam.
Good. A PE makes you dumb. I'm not sure how that works.
The landlord's daughter-in-law just came out with an electrician and his son.
His tester stopped working, and he couldn't figure out my multimeter. It was getting milivolt readings from the air, and he couldn't figure out why he was getting a reading when he wasn't touching anything, so he licked his wrists and started touching them to pipes. He told me if there was anything to worry about, he would be able to feel it.
He pulled a screw off a metal plate and cleaned it. He said sometimes they get dirty and don't make good contact, and then you lose your ground.
He seemed satisfied that this solved the problem.
What do you think? Could he have been a PE?
I didn't ask.
Uh, that doesn't sound very reassuring.
Nah, the shaman came and shook his talismans at the haunted machine and scared away the evil spirits.
I'm sure everything is fine! :eek:
Well, I got my wish after all.
I finally got my hands on a clamp meter. I clamped it on the pipe, and it's showing 5 amps continuous while the dryer is running, and 25-30 amps during startup, which is the exact same reading I'm getting from the neutral coming out of the back of the dryer.
My diagnosis: some genius decided neutral and ground were basically the same thing when they were wiring the outlet.
hmmm
from wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral#Fixed_appliances_on_three-wire_circuits):
QuoteFixed appliances on three-wire circuits
In North America, the cases of some ranges, cook tops, ovens, clothes dryers and other specifically listed appliances were grounded through their neutral wires as a measure to conserve copper from copper cables during the Second World War. This practice was removed from the NEC in the 1996 edition, but existing installations (called "old work") may still allow the cases of such listed appliances to be connected to the neutral conductor for grounding.
This practice arose from the three wire system used to supply both 120 volt and 240 volt loads. Because these listed appliances often have components that use either 120, or both 120 and 240 volts, there is often some current on the neutral wire. This differs from the protective grounding wire, which only carries current under fault conditions. Using the neutral conductor for grounding the equipment enclosure was considered safe since the devices were permanently wired to the supply and so the neutral was unlikely to be broken without also breaking both supply conductors. Also, the unbalanced current due to lamps and small motors in the appliances was small compared to the rating of the conductors and therefore unlikely to cause a large voltage drop in the neutral conductor.
perhaps relevant?
Are new 220v appliances all 4 wire?
This dryer only has two hot and a neutral, or at least what I'm assuming is supposed to be neutral and not ground, so the dryer itself is apparently designed to be "grounded" through it's neutral wire.
So far, two local sources, The Shaman, and another friend of mine who apparently has recently gotten his certification as an electrician, have both said things that suggest that they think it's perfectly normal for current to be running through ground. I was taught that if you have current running through ground, something has gone wrong.
When I was poking around inside the dryer, I noticed that everything was running on 120, which explains why I have current running through neutral.
I'm still not sure how neutral is connected to the plumbing, though. Is it a direct connection with a ground wire attached to a pipe somewhere, or is it coming from the heating element? All of the current is coming out of the cold side, there is none on the hot side.