This article is old, but I'd never read it before and it's really moving.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/losing-my-religion-for-equality-20090714-dk0v.html
QuoteThe carefully selected verses found in the Holy Scriptures to justify the superiority of men owe more to time and place - and the determination of male leaders to hold onto their influence - than eternal truths. Similar biblical excerpts could be found to support the approval of slavery and the timid acquiescence to oppressive rulers.
I am also familiar with vivid descriptions in the same Scriptures in which women are revered as pre-eminent leaders. During the years of the early Christian church women served as deacons, priests, bishops, apostles, teachers and prophets. It wasn't until the fourth century that dominant Christian leaders, all men, twisted and distorted Holy Scriptures to perpetuate their ascendant positions within the religious hierarchy.
The truth is that male religious leaders have had - and still have - an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. This is in clear violation not just of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but also the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the prophets, Muhammad, and founders of other great religions - all of whom have called for proper and equitable treatment of all the children of God. It is time we had the courage to challenge these views.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/losing-my-religion-for-equality-20090714-dk0v.html#ixzz2JHuHHBfm
Also, the Apocrypha deals pretty extensively with the role of women in society, and the people debating it come to the conclusion that women should have equality in men in all social rights and responsibilities.
The Catholic church isn't a big fan of the Apocrypha, and for some reason it does not appear in their bible, though it appears in almost every other major sect's bibles. The KJV, for example, includes it.
What I got out of that was that God was the first ever victim of a man-in-the-middle attack and probably should have looked into some form of message authentication so as not to have his communication hijacked.
God was shit at communications in general. That's prolly a large part of why he had to resign his CEO position.
Quote from: Pæs on January 28, 2013, 06:16:58 PM
What I got out of that was that God was the first ever victim of a man-in-the-middle attack and probably should have looked into some form of message authentication so as not to have his communication hijacked.
Balls. If you accept the bible as literal truth, then Lucifer didn't fall and he didn't jump, he was PUSHED. And God was more than a little ham-fisted in his dealings with US, after THAT, the only proofs of which I need offer are:
The Garden of Eden
The story of Lot
The book of Job
and
The flood.
It's like people posting sagely advice to Facebook, but on a dodgy connection, so there's a /b/tard modifying all their posts.
"You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching, love like you'll never be hurt, sing like there's nobody listening and live like it's heaven on earth AND STAY IN THE DAMN KITCHEN LOL"
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 06:22:54 PM
Quote from: Pæs on January 28, 2013, 06:16:58 PM
What I got out of that was that God was the first ever victim of a man-in-the-middle attack and probably should have looked into some form of message authentication so as not to have his communication hijacked.
Balls. If you accept the bible as literal truth, then Lucifer didn't fall and he didn't jump, he was PUSHED. And God was more than a little ham-fisted in his dealings with US, after THAT, the only proofs of which I need offer are:
The Garden of Eden
The story of Lot
The book of Job
and
The flood.
I'm pretty convinced that the original point of all that stuff was that we'd better treat each other right, because God is fucking psycho.
That, or it's a bunch of allegories for astrology stuff. Old Hebrews loved astrology.
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 28, 2013, 07:42:24 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 06:22:54 PM
Quote from: Pæs on January 28, 2013, 06:16:58 PM
What I got out of that was that God was the first ever victim of a man-in-the-middle attack and probably should have looked into some form of message authentication so as not to have his communication hijacked.
Balls. If you accept the bible as literal truth, then Lucifer didn't fall and he didn't jump, he was PUSHED. And God was more than a little ham-fisted in his dealings with US, after THAT, the only proofs of which I need offer are:
The Garden of Eden
The story of Lot
The book of Job
and
The flood.
I'm pretty convinced that the original point of all that stuff was that we'd better treat each other right, because God is fucking psycho.
That, or it's a bunch of allegories for astrology stuff. Old Hebrews loved astrology.
The Garden of Eden and the flood stuff is directly ripped off from the Sumerians, anyway.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 07:43:47 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 28, 2013, 07:42:24 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 06:22:54 PM
Quote from: Pæs on January 28, 2013, 06:16:58 PM
What I got out of that was that God was the first ever victim of a man-in-the-middle attack and probably should have looked into some form of message authentication so as not to have his communication hijacked.
Balls. If you accept the bible as literal truth, then Lucifer didn't fall and he didn't jump, he was PUSHED. And God was more than a little ham-fisted in his dealings with US, after THAT, the only proofs of which I need offer are:
The Garden of Eden
The story of Lot
The book of Job
and
The flood.
I'm pretty convinced that the original point of all that stuff was that we'd better treat each other right, because God is fucking psycho.
That, or it's a bunch of allegories for astrology stuff. Old Hebrews loved astrology.
The Garden of Eden and the flood stuff is directly ripped off from the Sumerians, anyway.
Yep. It would explain a lot of the nonsensical stuff.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 04:30:28 PM
Also, the Apocrypha deals pretty extensively with the role of women in society, and the people debating it come to the conclusion that women should have equality in men in all social rights and responsibilities.
The Catholic church isn't a big fan of the Apocrypha, and for some reason it does not appear in their bible, though it appears in almost every other major sect's bibles. The KJV, for example, includes it.
I think you have sects reversed. They kept it for the whole praying for the dead part so that they can explain purgatory.
*Edit: just learned there are many books called apocrypha, depends which one you want*
Quote from: Mome Papess Trivial on January 28, 2013, 09:17:46 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 04:30:28 PM
Also, the Apocrypha deals pretty extensively with the role of women in society, and the people debating it come to the conclusion that women should have equality in men in all social rights and responsibilities.
The Catholic church isn't a big fan of the Apocrypha, and for some reason it does not appear in their bible, though it appears in almost every other major sect's bibles. The KJV, for example, includes it.
I think you have sects reversed. They kept it for the whole praying for the dead part so that they can explain purgatory.
Nope. I have a KJV, and it has the apocrypha. The Catholics typically just made shit up and explained it via papal infallibility (or "bull" as they and I both like to call it).
Not that I'm vouching for the accuracy of any given sect, mind you.
ETA: It's been years since I looked in a Catholic bible, and it may be there, but I don't remember it if it was.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 04:30:28 PM
Also, the Apocrypha deals pretty extensively with the role of women in society, and the people debating it come to the conclusion that women should have equality in men in all social rights and responsibilities.
The Catholic church isn't a big fan of the Apocrypha, and for some reason it does not appear in their bible, though it appears in almost every other major sect's bibles. The KJV, for example, includes it.
Which books? The Catholic Old Testament has several more books in it than KJV.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible#Apocryphal_or_deuterocanonical_books
I think that the confusion may be that the Catholic Bible doesn't consider them Apocrypha, but rather, canon.
Quote from: Queef Erisson on January 28, 2013, 09:21:51 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 04:30:28 PM
Also, the Apocrypha deals pretty extensively with the role of women in society, and the people debating it come to the conclusion that women should have equality in men in all social rights and responsibilities.
The Catholic church isn't a big fan of the Apocrypha, and for some reason it does not appear in their bible, though it appears in almost every other major sect's bibles. The KJV, for example, includes it.
Which books? The Catholic Old Testament has several more books in it than KJV.
The Apocrypha.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha
Turns out that the Catholics accept some of the apocrypha. Betcha it's not the part I was discussing. I'll check when I get home.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 28, 2013, 04:20:18 PM
This article is old, but I'd never read it before and it's really moving.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/losing-my-religion-for-equality-20090714-dk0v.html
QuoteThe carefully selected verses found in the Holy Scriptures to justify the superiority of men owe more to time and place - and the determination of male leaders to hold onto their influence - than eternal truths. Similar biblical excerpts could be found to support the approval of slavery and the timid acquiescence to oppressive rulers.
I am also familiar with vivid descriptions in the same Scriptures in which women are revered as pre-eminent leaders. During the years of the early Christian church women served as deacons, priests, bishops, apostles, teachers and prophets. It wasn't until the fourth century that dominant Christian leaders, all men, twisted and distorted Holy Scriptures to perpetuate their ascendant positions within the religious hierarchy.
The truth is that male religious leaders have had - and still have - an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. This is in clear violation not just of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but also the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the prophets, Muhammad, and founders of other great religions - all of whom have called for proper and equitable treatment of all the children of God. It is time we had the courage to challenge these views.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/losing-my-religion-for-equality-20090714-dk0v.html#ixzz2JHuHHBfm
What is the fear that causes it? Is it some sort of obsessive power hold on directing reproduction? I mean the article itself says that religious leaders overwhelming choose subjugation.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 04:30:28 PM
Also, the Apocrypha deals pretty extensively with the role of women in society, and the people debating it come to the conclusion that women should have equality in men in all social rights and responsibilities.
The Catholic church isn't a big fan of the Apocrypha, and for some reason it does not appear in their bible, though it appears in almost every other major sect's bibles. The KJV, for example, includes it.
Wow, I didn't know that. At all.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 28, 2013, 09:27:11 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 04:30:28 PM
Also, the Apocrypha deals pretty extensively with the role of women in society, and the people debating it come to the conclusion that women should have equality in men in all social rights and responsibilities.
The Catholic church isn't a big fan of the Apocrypha, and for some reason it does not appear in their bible, though it appears in almost every other major sect's bibles. The KJV, for example, includes it.
Wow, I didn't know that. At all.
Not sure without having the book handy, but I think it's in this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiasticus
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 09:35:54 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 28, 2013, 09:27:11 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 04:30:28 PM
Also, the Apocrypha deals pretty extensively with the role of women in society, and the people debating it come to the conclusion that women should have equality in men in all social rights and responsibilities.
The Catholic church isn't a big fan of the Apocrypha, and for some reason it does not appear in their bible, though it appears in almost every other major sect's bibles. The KJV, for example, includes it.
Wow, I didn't know that. At all.
Not sure without having the book handy, but I think it's in this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiasticus
That one is called Sirach in the Catholic edition.
These are the Apocrypha that the Catholic lacks, but so does the KJV:
QuoteIn addition to those, the Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches recognize the following:[citation needed]
3 Maccabees
1 Esdras
Prayer of Manasseh
Psalm 151
Russian and Georgian Orthodox Churches include:[citation needed]
2 Esdras i.e., Latin Esdras in the Russian and Georgian Bibles
There is also 4 Maccabees which is only accepted as canonical in the Georgian Church, but was included by St. Jerome in an appendix to the Vulgate, and is an appendix to the Greek Orthodox Bible, and it is therefore sometimes included in collections of the Apocrypha.[citation needed]
The Syriac Orthodox tradition includes:[citation needed]
Psalms 151–155
The Apocalypse of Baruch
The Letter of Baruch
The Ethiopian Biblical canon includes:[citation needed]
Jubilees
Enoch
1–3 Meqabyan
Nope. NOT Ecclesiasticus.
Gonna have to go look the old-fashioned way.
Quote from: Bu☆ns on January 28, 2013, 09:27:01 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 28, 2013, 04:20:18 PM
This article is old, but I'd never read it before and it's really moving.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/losing-my-religion-for-equality-20090714-dk0v.html
QuoteThe carefully selected verses found in the Holy Scriptures to justify the superiority of men owe more to time and place - and the determination of male leaders to hold onto their influence - than eternal truths. Similar biblical excerpts could be found to support the approval of slavery and the timid acquiescence to oppressive rulers.
I am also familiar with vivid descriptions in the same Scriptures in which women are revered as pre-eminent leaders. During the years of the early Christian church women served as deacons, priests, bishops, apostles, teachers and prophets. It wasn't until the fourth century that dominant Christian leaders, all men, twisted and distorted Holy Scriptures to perpetuate their ascendant positions within the religious hierarchy.
The truth is that male religious leaders have had - and still have - an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world. This is in clear violation not just of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but also the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the prophets, Muhammad, and founders of other great religions - all of whom have called for proper and equitable treatment of all the children of God. It is time we had the courage to challenge these views.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/losing-my-religion-for-equality-20090714-dk0v.html#ixzz2JHuHHBfm
What is the fear that causes it? Is it some sort of obsessive power hold on directing reproduction? I mean the article itself says that religious leaders overwhelming choose subjugation.
It stems from greed, IMO, because patriarchy emerged at the same time and in the same places as land ownership. The only way to make sure that shit stays in the family is to A: do the matrilinear thing (in which case the only way for men to amass stuff is to control women) or B: control reproduction, which requires controlling uteruses,which in turn requires controlling women.
Old testament apocrypha is in the Catholic. KJV has it and it's labeled as such. Some Catholic bibles call it deuterocanonical texts - depends on what flavor Catholic (east, west, coptic).
Grew up catholic, got better, then got random chick tracts given to me saying said books is undermining the truthiness of the bible or something. Yet he has a hard on for the KJV despite it having it.
Catholics are weird about women in church. The priest was shot in my hometown because some guy claiming to be elijah didn't want women reading the bible, yet the pope then said they could. New pope is trying to shame U.S. nuns because they aren't focused on the gays and think birth control is nifty.
It's all about control and numbers really. The ancient societies where women had more power have less children, even before good methods of birth control. Sort of holds true today.
More than sort of... there's a very clear correlation between education of women and lower birth rates. Dramatically lower.
Kind of makes me wonder what the Catholic church's reaction is going to be as stem cell technologies expand our medical treatments into the life-extension arena. For that matter, that will be a game-changer in a lot of areas.
Quote from: Mome Papess Trivial on January 28, 2013, 09:47:52 PM
Old testament apocrypha is in the Catholic. KJV has it and it's labeled as such. Some Catholic bibles call it deuterocanonical texts - depends on what flavor Catholic (east, west, coptic).
Yep. I stand corrected. Still gonna try to find that section I was talking about.
Quote from: Mome Papess Trivial on January 28, 2013, 09:47:52 PM
Grew up catholic, got better, then got random chick tracts given to me saying said books is undermining the truthiness of the bible or something. Yet he has a hard on for the KJV despite it having it.
Catholics are weird about women in church. The priest was shot in my hometown because some guy claiming to be elijah didn't want women reading the bible, yet the pope then said they could. New pope is trying to shame U.S. nuns because they aren't focused on the gays and think birth control is nifty.
It's all about control and numbers really. The ancient societies where women had more power have less children, even before good methods of birth control. Sort of holds true today.
I like this new person. She seems to be a people.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 28, 2013, 10:06:04 PM
Quote from: Mome Papess Trivial on January 28, 2013, 09:47:52 PM
Old testament apocrypha is in the Catholic. KJV has it and it's labeled as such. Some Catholic bibles call it deuterocanonical texts - depends on what flavor Catholic (east, west, coptic).
Yep. I stand corrected. Still gonna try to find that section I was talking about.
Quote from: Mome Papess Trivial on January 28, 2013, 09:47:52 PM
Grew up catholic, got better, then got random chick tracts given to me saying said books is undermining the truthiness of the bible or something. Yet he has a hard on for the KJV despite it having it.
Catholics are weird about women in church. The priest was shot in my hometown because some guy claiming to be elijah didn't want women reading the bible, yet the pope then said they could. New pope is trying to shame U.S. nuns because they aren't focused on the gays and think birth control is nifty.
It's all about control and numbers really. The ancient societies where women had more power have less children, even before good methods of birth control. Sort of holds true today.
I like this new person. She seems to be a people.
She does! It's unexpectedly refreshing.
I also grew up Catholic, and noticed Revelations isn't all fire and brimstone like the KJV people have raping hard on for. I'm looking into reading early translations of the Roman Bible. I also want to compare the Eastern Orthodox versions though to the Romans one. I read maybe 1/3 of a book that translated and reviewed the Gospel of Judas. I noticed that Judas was clearly a whipped friend, or Jesus was this smug asshole. I might listen to lectures about that gospel. But if anyone has any links, or historical translations from the Roman church that are early editions that would be great.
Quote from: /b/earman on January 29, 2013, 12:16:26 AM
I also grew up Catholic, and noticed Revelations isn't all fire and brimstone like the KJV people have raping hard on for. I'm looking into reading early translations of the Roman Bible. I also want to compare the Eastern Orthodox versions though to the Romans one. I read maybe 1/3 of a book that translated and reviewed the Gospel of Judas. I noticed that Judas was clearly a whipped friend, or Jesus was this smug asshole. I might listen to lectures about that gospel. But if anyone has any links, or historical translations from the Roman church that are early editions that would be great.
I took the Gospel of Judas as Jesus being unable to explain the joke.
So Jesus was Dane Cook?
I like being a people.
Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary are a good ones, though there's a part where the apostles are dissing her and how women would even get to heaven. Jesus says he's going to make her soul a dude to get there.
Heaven is a sausage party.
Thomas:
114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ all sorts of crap here.
Quote from: Gospel of ThomasSimon Peter said to them: Let Mary go forth from among us, for women are not worthy of the life. Jesus said: Behold, I shall lead her, that I may make her male, in order that she also may become a living spirit like you males. For every woman who makes herself male shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
ETA: Oh, snap. Beaten by an edit.
I should really post after I find relevant information.
So in other words, Jesus digs the transgendered.
No wonder they aren't canon.
Quote from: Queef Erisson on January 29, 2013, 05:35:17 AM
So in other words, Jesus digs the transgendered.
No wonder they aren't canon.
Oh I am DIGGING this interpretation
run with it!
Quote from: Mome Papess Trivial on January 28, 2013, 09:47:52 PM
Catholics are weird about women in church.
Yes, but it's justified. Women sap away men's bodily fluids, and thus their vital essence.
ARISTOTLE SAID IT, IT MUST BE TRUE
From a religious studies dork (i.e. me),
The Gospel of Thomas, Mary, Judas are not Apocryphal because they were not not censored out of the original canon. These are all texts discovered in the last hundred years either in the nag hammadi library or as a part of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Being gnostic texts they present varying views of the origins and beliefs of an emerging Christianity and do not reflect upon the "Church" as Paul built it.
Not to say that the Church would not have burnt them anyway but its like comparing cricket to baseball.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 29, 2013, 06:52:46 AM
Quote from: Queef Erisson on January 29, 2013, 05:35:17 AM
So in other words, Jesus digs the transgendered.
No wonder they aren't canon.
Oh I am DIGGING this interpretation
run with it!
Oh yeah. As soon as I typed it, I was like, "This could be good..."
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 28, 2013, 09:57:56 PM
Kind of makes me wonder what the Catholic church's reaction is going to be as stem cell technologies expand our medical treatments into the life-extension arena. For that matter, that will be a game-changer in a lot of areas.
As I recall, the party line in the Church is against in-vitro fertilization, because just as abortion is the unnatural end of the unborn, IVF is the unnatural creation of the unborn. So I imagine any sort of treatment that alters the "natural" lifespan would be anathema.
Quote from: deadfong on January 31, 2013, 01:32:29 AM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 28, 2013, 09:57:56 PM
Kind of makes me wonder what the Catholic church's reaction is going to be as stem cell technologies expand our medical treatments into the life-extension arena. For that matter, that will be a game-changer in a lot of areas.
As I recall, the party line in the Church is against in-vitro fertilization, because just as abortion is the unnatural end of the unborn, IVF is the unnatural creation of the unborn. So I imagine any sort of treatment that alters the "natural" lifespan would be anathema.
It also makes reproduction a stickier issue.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 31, 2013, 06:16:53 AM
Quote from: deadfong on January 31, 2013, 01:32:29 AM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 28, 2013, 09:57:56 PM
Kind of makes me wonder what the Catholic church's reaction is going to be as stem cell technologies expand our medical treatments into the life-extension arena. For that matter, that will be a game-changer in a lot of areas.
As I recall, the party line in the Church is against in-vitro fertilization, because just as abortion is the unnatural end of the unborn, IVF is the unnatural creation of the unborn. So I imagine any sort of treatment that alters the "natural" lifespan would be anathema.
It also makes reproduction a stickier issue.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Dammit, i'm juvenile at the moment.