I don't understand this concept. Safety isn't tied to a physical location. In fact, it's damn near non-existant.
The only time I've seen this term before is when it has been used on message boards to say "Nobody gets to disagree with the group's heirarchs or you're banned"...IE, safety in terms of a non-challenging environment.
I am assuming that there is another meaning to this term, but I didn't want to fuck up Pixie's thread asking about it.
Safe Spaces generally refer to a place where certain topics and themes are not allowed. Usually forums or classrooms where it's stated or implied that whatever harsh reality isn't in effect and thus those within are safe from the consequences of whatever they are being exposed to the real world.
Usually I see the term when on sexual assault or abuse forums. It's a construct to allow people to feel safe enough to talk about what happened to them and how it affected them, etc.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 07:28:34 PM
Safe Spaces generally refer to a place where certain topics and themes are not allowed. Usually forums or classrooms where it's stated or implied that whatever harsh reality isn't in effect and thus those within are safe from the consequences of whatever they are being exposed to the real world.
Oh.
A Safe Space can also be a place where it's okay to "X" and no one's going to give you shit for it, for example you could have a restaurant that is a Safe Space for breastfeeding.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 07:29:45 PM
Usually I see the term when on sexual assault or abuse forums. It's a construct to allow people to feel safe enough to talk about what happened to them and how it affected them, etc.
I vaguely disapprove, but I'm not sure. I need to think this one through for a bit.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 07:31:30 PM
A Safe Space can also be a place where it's okay to "X" and no one's going to give you shit for it, for example you could have a restaurant that is a Safe Space for breastfeeding.
That's different.
But the example is fucked. Where should it not be okay to breastfeed?
But I get what you mean.
For instance, I have a group of friends who call themselves 'plurals'. Their safe space is a community where they can talk about all the voices and people and whatever that live inside their head and share the body without being told they're guano loco and mocked for believing what they say is real.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 07:32:51 PM
For instance, I have a group of friends who call themselves 'plurals'. Their safe space is a community where they can talk about all the voices and people and whatever that live inside their head and share the body without being told they're guano loco and mocked for believing what they say is real.
I'm sort of being led to the source of my disapproval, here. Do please post another example or expand on the above.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 07:31:30 PM
A Safe Space can also be a place where it's okay to "X" and no one's going to give you shit for it, for example you could have a restaurant that is a Safe Space for breastfeeding.
Your example makes more sense. I hadn't realized something like that would require a safe place. But now that I think about it, breastfeeding in public is pretty much taboo in places. OMGERD, BOOBS!
I've always heard of "safe spaces" in the context that it is not a physical space, but a communication environment.
For example, a forum where it is not ok to be a man and post about getting emotional and crying would not be a safe space for that communication because people would mock and belittle that.
There are forums where being openly female or gay is not safe because people will harass you.
Safe spaces, in that context, exist both online and in face-to-face interactions, but they're not tied to a geographical location.
Another example I've encountered is people who've suffered from whatever the current term for multiple personality disorder is. They can give a voice to each splinter or alter and allow those sides to express themselves.
The overall idea is that feeling free to express this stuff and talk about it all will lead to healing. Once you've laid all the ugly parts out you can clean them off and figure out how it all fits together to make it easier to function and decide what you want from life.
What sometimes happens is that people become entrenched in the 'you-can't-criticize-me' part and expect everyone to take everything they say as gospel because they are special snowflakes.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 07:36:40 PM
I've always heard of "safe spaces" in the context that it is not a physical space, but a communication environment.
For example, a forum where it is not ok to be a man and post about getting emotional and crying would not be a safe space for that communication because people would mock and belittle that.
There are forums where being openly female or gay is not safe because people will harass you.
Safe spaces, in that context, exist both online and in face-to-face interactions, but they're not tied to a geographical location.
This, yes.
Safe space is a term defined here,
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space
in terms of the gaming http://www.forbes.com/sites/danieltack/2013/04/04/rize-up-gaming-seeks-to-create-safe-gaming-spaces/
http://www.gamingaswomen.com/posts/2013/01/finding-my-o-with-the-x-card/
http://www.gamingaswomen.com/posts/2012/06/sensitive-stuff-at-the-gaming-table/
in terms of internet online feminist spaces it's a term used for not allowing victim blaming, triggery material without TW's and without the "BOOBS OR GTFO" shit women get on the nets.
Basically it's a term for a space very much not like PD, in some ways, and ery like it in others (we don't tend to tolerate racism and other nasty shit and I've always felt I can speak up and tell someone to STFU and why)
The gaming as women links are most relevant to the tread I was in, and what kicked of my idea for expanding on that idea into a larp space and different strategies.
I'm more of a Dangerous Spaces kinda-guy but I get that I'm fortunate in that I don't have any sorta traumatic shit that causes me to be unable to function to whatever unacceptable degree. Some people are and they go to safe spaces and it makes them feel more comfortable. I don't see this as a bad thing. But I have nowt to do with them.
Got it.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 07:32:51 PM
For instance, I have a group of friends who call themselves 'plurals'. Their safe space is a community where they can talk about all the voices and people and whatever that live inside their head and share the body without being told they're guano loco and mocked for believing what they say is real.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 07:37:40 PM
Another example I've encountered is people who've suffered from whatever the current term for multiple personality disorder is. They can give a voice to each splinter or alter and allow those sides to express themselves.
The overall idea is that feeling free to express this stuff and talk about it all will lead to healing. Once you've laid all the ugly parts out you can clean them off and figure out how it all fits together to make it easier to function and decide what you want from life.
What sometimes happens is that people become entrenched in the 'you-can't-criticize-me' part and expect everyone to take everything they say as gospel because they are special snowflakes.
What bothers me about this whole thing is the whole climbing under the blanket and huffing each other's farts part of it. The above examples are PERFECT.
What you have is a few people who have decided that they are MPS or whatever you call it, and they can play this fantasy
1 out, with positive reinforcement only, which allows them to burrow deeper into that fantasy life with the full support of the people around them.
I've attended some VA group counseling, back during my dark days (1996-1999), but there was never any "safe space" aspect to it. If what you said was bullshit, you got called on it. The idea was to bring you back to functionality, not tell you what a darling little snowflake you are.
1 People with genuine multiple personalities are almost NEVER aware of the multiple personalities. It is also the number one faked or fantasy mental illness. Don't like yourself? Just pretend to be a crowd!
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 07:36:40 PM
I've always heard of "safe spaces" in the context that it is not a physical space, but a communication environment.
For example, a forum where it is not ok to be a man and post about getting emotional and crying would not be a safe space for that communication because people would mock and belittle that.
There are forums where being openly female or gay is not safe because people will harass you.
Safe spaces, in that context, exist both online and in face-to-face interactions, but they're not tied to a geographical location.
I wrote some things and then decided that this was better.
Quote from: Pixie on April 18, 2013, 07:38:59 PM
Safe space is a term defined here,
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space
So, it's sort of an enforced SHUT UP.
We just throw that sort of person who would misbehave in that manner out of the group.
One other "safe space" thing I've done was a mommy support group where you were allowed to say things about how much being a mom blows, which I think is an important one because moms don't get a lot of safe spaces for that kind of thing. It's a voluntary, temporary agreement: go in, bitch and moan and get it out of your system, then go back to the real world where people will call you on your bullshit and also judge you for every little thing you do ever. I can see how that can ultimately result in fart-huffing, but I think as a temporary thing hiding out in blanket forts every once in a while can be a positive experience.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 07:44:51 PM
What bothers me about this whole thing is the whole climbing under the blanket and huffing each other's farts part of it. The above examples are PERFECT.
What you have is a few people who have decided that they are MPS or whatever you call it, and they can play this fantasy1 out, with positive reinforcement only, which allows them to burrow deeper into that fantasy life with the full support of the people around them.
I've attended some VA group counseling, back during my dark days (1996-1999), but there was never any "safe space" aspect to it. If what you said was bullshit, you got called on it. The idea was to bring you back to functionality, not tell you what a darling little snowflake you are.
I guess that's the other edge of the sword.
A safe space for PTSD victims would be one where some schmuck who thinks "all'a these sissies just need to be told what's what, and suck it up" is not permitted to put his two cents in the conversation. Because fuck that guy.
ETA: or sufferers of clinical depression, etc. All of those mental disorders in which a lot of yahoos feel the need to "help" by weighing in with their folksy tough-love wisdom.
This thread is super interesting to me. Mostly, I deal with people who can't hack it for one reason or another. Seeing other examples is awesome. It also reminds me I need to get out more. :P
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 07:49:31 PM
One other "safe space" thing I've done was a mommy support group where you were allowed to say things about how much being a mom blows, which I think is an important one because moms don't get a lot of safe spaces for that kind of thing. It's a voluntary, temporary agreement: go in, bitch and moan and get it out of your system, then go back to the real world where people will call you on your bullshit and also judge you for every little thing you do ever. I can see how that can ultimately result in fart-huffing, but I think as a temporary thing hiding out in blanket forts every once in a while can be a positive experience.
Dude the amount of guilt and shaming mothers go through is ridiculous. I can see the support group being a good thing.
the potential for fart huffing is why I come here, to check my head.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 07:49:31 PM
One other "safe space" thing I've done was a mommy support group where you were allowed to say things about how much being a mom blows, which I think is an important one because moms don't get a lot of safe spaces for that kind of thing. It's a voluntary, temporary agreement: go in, bitch and moan and get it out of your system, then go back to the real world where people will call you on your bullshit and also judge you for every little thing you do ever. I can see how that can ultimately result in fart-huffing, but I think as a temporary thing hiding out in blanket forts every once in a while can be a positive experience.
I see it as a control mechanism and a fart huffing device.
I can see it being very useful in therapy, particularly for recent victims. Done outside of a medical environment, I see it
at best as amateur psychology hour, and at worst, a method of telling people to SHUT UP and accept whatever is put in front of them.
I wonder if there are two kinds of safe spaces? Like one happened because people are genuinely affected by some shit that people can type at them on the internet, like "triggers" as I keep hearing about (I think I get the rough gist without necessarily identifying)
Then there's a bunch of fuckheads with dumb ideas who have been trolled and constantly get the piss ripped out of them for ... whatever.
Maybe certain negative tendencies from the latter have potential to manifest in the former?
Quote from: Cainad on April 18, 2013, 07:49:54 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 07:44:51 PM
What bothers me about this whole thing is the whole climbing under the blanket and huffing each other's farts part of it. The above examples are PERFECT.
What you have is a few people who have decided that they are MPS or whatever you call it, and they can play this fantasy1 out, with positive reinforcement only, which allows them to burrow deeper into that fantasy life with the full support of the people around them.
I've attended some VA group counseling, back during my dark days (1996-1999), but there was never any "safe space" aspect to it. If what you said was bullshit, you got called on it. The idea was to bring you back to functionality, not tell you what a darling little snowflake you are.
I guess that's the other edge of the sword.
A safe space for PTSD victims would be one where some schmuck who thinks "all'a these sissies just need to be told what's what, and suck it up" is not permitted to put his two cents in the conversation. Because fuck that guy.
ETA: or sufferers of clinical depression, etc. All of those mental disorders in which a lot of yahoos feel the need to "help" by weighing in with their folksy tough-love wisdom.
Actually, we kind of let anyone say whatever they wanted. Probably 33% thought, at least initially, that it was all sissy and they were fine. This was allowed to be conveyed, and then questioned by the two group psychologists. The end result was that the idea was brought into the light and discredited, rather than surpressed to fester.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 07:52:23 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 07:49:31 PM
One other "safe space" thing I've done was a mommy support group where you were allowed to say things about how much being a mom blows, which I think is an important one because moms don't get a lot of safe spaces for that kind of thing. It's a voluntary, temporary agreement: go in, bitch and moan and get it out of your system, then go back to the real world where people will call you on your bullshit and also judge you for every little thing you do ever. I can see how that can ultimately result in fart-huffing, but I think as a temporary thing hiding out in blanket forts every once in a while can be a positive experience.
Dude the amount of guilt and shaming mothers go through is ridiculous. I can see the support group being a good thing.
I understand support groups.
I don't see them as being the same as "safe places" as described in this thread and at the links.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 07:59:41 PM
Quote from: Cainad on April 18, 2013, 07:49:54 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 07:44:51 PM
What bothers me about this whole thing is the whole climbing under the blanket and huffing each other's farts part of it. The above examples are PERFECT.
What you have is a few people who have decided that they are MPS or whatever you call it, and they can play this fantasy1 out, with positive reinforcement only, which allows them to burrow deeper into that fantasy life with the full support of the people around them.
I've attended some VA group counseling, back during my dark days (1996-1999), but there was never any "safe space" aspect to it. If what you said was bullshit, you got called on it. The idea was to bring you back to functionality, not tell you what a darling little snowflake you are.
I guess that's the other edge of the sword.
A safe space for PTSD victims would be one where some schmuck who thinks "all'a these sissies just need to be told what's what, and suck it up" is not permitted to put his two cents in the conversation. Because fuck that guy.
ETA: or sufferers of clinical depression, etc. All of those mental disorders in which a lot of yahoos feel the need to "help" by weighing in with their folksy tough-love wisdom.
Actually, we kind of let anyone say whatever they wanted. Probably 33% thought, at least initially, that it was all sissy and they were fine. This was allowed to be conveyed, and then questioned by the two group psychologists. The end result was that the idea was brought into the light and discredited, rather than surpressed to fester.
Point taken.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 07:57:17 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 07:49:31 PM
One other "safe space" thing I've done was a mommy support group where you were allowed to say things about how much being a mom blows, which I think is an important one because moms don't get a lot of safe spaces for that kind of thing. It's a voluntary, temporary agreement: go in, bitch and moan and get it out of your system, then go back to the real world where people will call you on your bullshit and also judge you for every little thing you do ever. I can see how that can ultimately result in fart-huffing, but I think as a temporary thing hiding out in blanket forts every once in a while can be a positive experience.
I see it as a control mechanism and a fart huffing device.
I can see it being very useful in therapy, particularly for recent victims. Done outside of a medical environment, I see it at best as amateur psychology hour, and at worst, a method of telling people to SHUT UP and accept whatever is put in front of them.
Never
ever go roaming on Tumblr.
Or, if you do, at least screenshot the outrage for the rest of us.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:00:36 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 07:52:23 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 07:49:31 PM
One other "safe space" thing I've done was a mommy support group where you were allowed to say things about how much being a mom blows, which I think is an important one because moms don't get a lot of safe spaces for that kind of thing. It's a voluntary, temporary agreement: go in, bitch and moan and get it out of your system, then go back to the real world where people will call you on your bullshit and also judge you for every little thing you do ever. I can see how that can ultimately result in fart-huffing, but I think as a temporary thing hiding out in blanket forts every once in a while can be a positive experience.
Dude the amount of guilt and shaming mothers go through is ridiculous. I can see the support group being a good thing.
I understand support groups.
I don't see them as being the same as "safe places" as described in this thread and at the links.
Having a space where no one is allowed to give you shit or advice as a mom is totally a Safe Space IMO. It is stunting people's ability to speak freely, but it's done to serve the purpose of the group and is entered into voluntarily. There is a difference between a Safe Space that's just about working through this shit so you can get on (support groups or group therapy) and a Safe Space that is for doing other things but we won't talk about X or Y because someone will get triggered/upset.
Quote from: Cain on April 18, 2013, 08:08:22 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 07:57:17 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 07:49:31 PM
One other "safe space" thing I've done was a mommy support group where you were allowed to say things about how much being a mom blows, which I think is an important one because moms don't get a lot of safe spaces for that kind of thing. It's a voluntary, temporary agreement: go in, bitch and moan and get it out of your system, then go back to the real world where people will call you on your bullshit and also judge you for every little thing you do ever. I can see how that can ultimately result in fart-huffing, but I think as a temporary thing hiding out in blanket forts every once in a while can be a positive experience.
I see it as a control mechanism and a fart huffing device.
I can see it being very useful in therapy, particularly for recent victims. Done outside of a medical environment, I see it at best as amateur psychology hour, and at worst, a method of telling people to SHUT UP and accept whatever is put in front of them.
Never ever go roaming on Tumblr.
Or, if you do, at least screenshot the outrage for the rest of us.
Will do. I love me some amateur psychology gurus.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 08:08:40 PM
It is stunting people's ability to speak freely,
The only objection I have is that the above never solves anything. Ever. It generates internal policing by self-appointed "community guardians" who spend their time looking for violations.
The farther you go from free speech, the closer you come to The Monkey. And The Monkey only understands pack mentality, and their climb in status in said pack.
In addition, silence implies consent in the minds of most people, especially people who have something to validate. Whereas I can see an exclusive support group (mothers only or even young mothers only) as being beneficial, an environment where criticism cannot be offered even by your peers (group-wise) has pretty horrific possibilities.
I also have an issue with the concept of "safe", but it's kinda complicated and far more complex than the usual "man up, sissy" objection, so I think I need some time to write it.
My main issue is that it tends to lead to some people getting totally caught up in their self-victimization and making them even less able to function outside the safe space. They log off the internet, go outside, and spend the entire time spazzing out because someone looked at them funny or laughed at their hairstyle.
But pointing this out, however gently, gets you thrown out of the safe space.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 08:23:31 PM
My main issue is that it tends to lead to some people getting totally caught up in their self-victimization and making them even less able to function outside the safe space. They log off the internet, go outside, and spend the entire time spazzing out because someone looked at them funny or laughed at their hairstyle.
But pointing this out, however gently, gets you thrown out of the safe space.
Which is what I was trying to say above, concerning stunted freedom of speech.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:24:28 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 08:23:31 PM
My main issue is that it tends to lead to some people getting totally caught up in their self-victimization and making them even less able to function outside the safe space. They log off the internet, go outside, and spend the entire time spazzing out because someone looked at them funny or laughed at their hairstyle.
But pointing this out, however gently, gets you thrown out of the safe space.
Which is what I was trying to say above, concerning stunted freedom of speech.
Sorry, went to get a sammich in between starting my post and finishing the post, and didn't see you'd already made the point.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 08:27:41 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:24:28 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 08:23:31 PM
My main issue is that it tends to lead to some people getting totally caught up in their self-victimization and making them even less able to function outside the safe space. They log off the internet, go outside, and spend the entire time spazzing out because someone looked at them funny or laughed at their hairstyle.
But pointing this out, however gently, gets you thrown out of the safe space.
Which is what I was trying to say above, concerning stunted freedom of speech.
Sorry, went to get a sammich in between starting my post and finishing the post, and didn't see you'd already made the point.
No worries. It was a perfect illustration of what I was trying to say.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 07:36:40 PM
I've always heard of "safe spaces" in the context that it is not a physical space, but a communication environment.
For example, a forum where it is not ok to be a man and post about getting emotional and crying would not be a safe space for that communication because people would mock and belittle that.
There are forums where being openly female or gay is not safe because people will harass you.
Safe spaces, in that context, exist both online and in face-to-face interactions, but they're not tied to a geographical location.
The Red and Black Cafe advertises itself as a safe space.
If you are "safe" in the context of safe spaces then you are vulnerable. Do safe spaces nurture vulnerability?
I was in a safe space, like an IRL safe space this one time. Well, a couple times actually, I'm a slow learner :oops: Initially it helped but I very quickly became institutionalised. Coming out the artificial safe space, into the real world again became harder and harder the longer I was in there.
I work in a place where people diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenia can meet up and have discussions/conversations:
*They are stigmatized daily if not frequently because of their diagnosis in school/work/relationships.
In that place they can feel safe or, have a "safe space" to talk about things that would be minimized in any other place, like "OH, that makes you feel bad? You such pussy" or that would reinforce the stigma "What do you mean? You're crazy, you shouldnt be allowed to live in X way."... but it also isnt all flowers and sunshine, because they can discuss between each other what is reasonable and what isn't, like, being called out on what is actually just their delirium or paranoia rather than facts.
So ideally a "safe space" should provide support and feedback, while not creating a cult that validates any and all thoughts and behaviours.
Quote from: The Johnny on April 18, 2013, 08:29:35 PM
I work in a place where people diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenia can meet up and have discussions/conversations:
*They are stigmatized daily if not frequently because of their diagnosis in school/work/relationships.
In that place they can feel safe or, have a "safe space" to talk about things that would be minimized in any other place, like "OH, that makes you feel bad? You such pussy" or that would reinforce the stigma "What do you mean? You're crazy, you shouldnt be allowed to live in X way."... but it also isnt all flowers and sunshine, because they can discuss between each other what is reasonable and what isn't, like, being called out on what is actually just their delirium or paranoia rather than facts.
So ideally a "safe space" should provide support and feedback, while not creating a cult that validates any and all thoughts and behaviours.
Best way to do that, in my experience as a member of one of these groups, is a "closed group". IE, people affected by whatever it is, and the counselors. Nobody else. You restrict access, not speech.
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on April 18, 2013, 08:28:34 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 07:36:40 PM
I've always heard of "safe spaces" in the context that it is not a physical space, but a communication environment.
For example, a forum where it is not ok to be a man and post about getting emotional and crying would not be a safe space for that communication because people would mock and belittle that.
There are forums where being openly female or gay is not safe because people will harass you.
Safe spaces, in that context, exist both online and in face-to-face interactions, but they're not tied to a geographical location.
The Red and Black Cafe advertises itself as a safe space.
Either:
1. It's in a dangerous neighborhood, or
2. They have found a label to associate with, that doesn't cost them any money but causes people to connect them to whatever cause they themselves espouse.
It's cynical as hell, but...
:bob:
APPROVED :bob:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:31:37 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on April 18, 2013, 08:29:35 PM
I work in a place where people diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenia can meet up and have discussions/conversations:
*They are stigmatized daily if not frequently because of their diagnosis in school/work/relationships.
In that place they can feel safe or, have a "safe space" to talk about things that would be minimized in any other place, like "OH, that makes you feel bad? You such pussy" or that would reinforce the stigma "What do you mean? You're crazy, you shouldnt be allowed to live in X way."... but it also isnt all flowers and sunshine, because they can discuss between each other what is reasonable and what isn't, like, being called out on what is actually just their delirium or paranoia rather than facts.
So ideally a "safe space" should provide support and feedback, while not creating a cult that validates any and all thoughts and behaviours.
Best way to do that, in my experience as a member of one of these groups, is a "closed group". IE, people affected by whatever it is, and the counselors. Nobody else. You restrict access, not speech.
This actually happens in an open space where there is relatively numerous transit and anyone can get closer to participate or just listen, also, part of it is a live radio transmission.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:31:37 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on April 18, 2013, 08:29:35 PM
I work in a place where people diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenia can meet up and have discussions/conversations:
*They are stigmatized daily if not frequently because of their diagnosis in school/work/relationships.
In that place they can feel safe or, have a "safe space" to talk about things that would be minimized in any other place, like "OH, that makes you feel bad? You such pussy" or that would reinforce the stigma "What do you mean? You're crazy, you shouldnt be allowed to live in X way."... but it also isnt all flowers and sunshine, because they can discuss between each other what is reasonable and what isn't, like, being called out on what is actually just their delirium or paranoia rather than facts.
So ideally a "safe space" should provide support and feedback, while not creating a cult that validates any and all thoughts and behaviours.
Best way to do that, in my experience as a member of one of these groups, is a "closed group". IE, people affected by whatever it is, and the counselors. Nobody else. You restrict access, not speech.
how do you do that on the interbutts? I'm thinking that some of the Safe Space thing might be simply a reaction to that dilema?
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 18, 2013, 08:40:21 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:31:37 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on April 18, 2013, 08:29:35 PM
I work in a place where people diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenia can meet up and have discussions/conversations:
*They are stigmatized daily if not frequently because of their diagnosis in school/work/relationships.
In that place they can feel safe or, have a "safe space" to talk about things that would be minimized in any other place, like "OH, that makes you feel bad? You such pussy" or that would reinforce the stigma "What do you mean? You're crazy, you shouldnt be allowed to live in X way."... but it also isnt all flowers and sunshine, because they can discuss between each other what is reasonable and what isn't, like, being called out on what is actually just their delirium or paranoia rather than facts.
So ideally a "safe space" should provide support and feedback, while not creating a cult that validates any and all thoughts and behaviours.
Best way to do that, in my experience as a member of one of these groups, is a "closed group". IE, people affected by whatever it is, and the counselors. Nobody else. You restrict access, not speech.
how do you do that on the interbutts? I'm thinking that some of the Safe Space thing might be simply a reaction to that dilema?
The same way TCC did. Impose mod law and throw out the dissenters. Which was totally a knee-jerk reaction to someone coming into their forum and shitting all over it. But it was so dead for so long it had taken on a kind of niche mentality.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:14:13 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 08:08:40 PM
It is stunting people's ability to speak freely,
The only objection I have is that the above never solves anything. Ever. It generates internal policing by self-appointed "community guardians" who spend their time looking for violations.
The farther you go from free speech, the closer you come to The Monkey. And The Monkey only understands pack mentality, and their climb in status in said pack.
In addition, silence implies consent in the minds of most people, especially people who have something to validate. Whereas I can see an exclusive support group (mothers only or even young mothers only) as being beneficial, an environment where criticism cannot be offered even by your peers (group-wise) has pretty horrific possibilities.
It can--but I think understanding that you're in a safe space rather than a support group can prevent that. You go in knowing that people have consented to silence, not to what you are saying.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 08:42:56 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 18, 2013, 08:40:21 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:31:37 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on April 18, 2013, 08:29:35 PM
I work in a place where people diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenia can meet up and have discussions/conversations:
*They are stigmatized daily if not frequently because of their diagnosis in school/work/relationships.
In that place they can feel safe or, have a "safe space" to talk about things that would be minimized in any other place, like "OH, that makes you feel bad? You such pussy" or that would reinforce the stigma "What do you mean? You're crazy, you shouldnt be allowed to live in X way."... but it also isnt all flowers and sunshine, because they can discuss between each other what is reasonable and what isn't, like, being called out on what is actually just their delirium or paranoia rather than facts.
So ideally a "safe space" should provide support and feedback, while not creating a cult that validates any and all thoughts and behaviours.
Best way to do that, in my experience as a member of one of these groups, is a "closed group". IE, people affected by whatever it is, and the counselors. Nobody else. You restrict access, not speech.
how do you do that on the interbutts? I'm thinking that some of the Safe Space thing might be simply a reaction to that dilema?
The same way TCC did. Impose mod law and throw out the dissenters. Which was totally a knee-jerk reaction to someone coming into their forum and shitting all over it. But it was so dead for so long it had taken on a kind of niche mentality.
That's when it's done wrong. I've seen forums (usually more serious ones) where there's good moderation but there's still definitive rules to what you can talk about. Discussing actual methods of self harm or suicide ideas on a mental health forum, for example.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 18, 2013, 08:48:25 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 08:42:56 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 18, 2013, 08:40:21 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:31:37 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on April 18, 2013, 08:29:35 PM
I work in a place where people diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenia can meet up and have discussions/conversations:
*They are stigmatized daily if not frequently because of their diagnosis in school/work/relationships.
In that place they can feel safe or, have a "safe space" to talk about things that would be minimized in any other place, like "OH, that makes you feel bad? You such pussy" or that would reinforce the stigma "What do you mean? You're crazy, you shouldnt be allowed to live in X way."... but it also isnt all flowers and sunshine, because they can discuss between each other what is reasonable and what isn't, like, being called out on what is actually just their delirium or paranoia rather than facts.
So ideally a "safe space" should provide support and feedback, while not creating a cult that validates any and all thoughts and behaviours.
Best way to do that, in my experience as a member of one of these groups, is a "closed group". IE, people affected by whatever it is, and the counselors. Nobody else. You restrict access, not speech.
how do you do that on the interbutts? I'm thinking that some of the Safe Space thing might be simply a reaction to that dilema?
The same way TCC did. Impose mod law and throw out the dissenters. Which was totally a knee-jerk reaction to someone coming into their forum and shitting all over it. But it was so dead for so long it had taken on a kind of niche mentality.
That's when it's done wrong. I've seen forums (usually more serious ones) where there's good moderation but there's still definitive rules to what you can talk about. Discussing actual methods of self harm or suicide ideas on a mental health forum, for example.
Very true. I can't think of a sure-fire way to create Roger's restricted-access/free-speech idea online that doesn't involve problematic screening methods. Or Matrix-like rabbit hole.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 08:23:31 PM
My main issue is that it tends to lead to some people getting totally caught up in their self-victimization and making them even less able to function outside the safe space. They log off the internet, go outside, and spend the entire time spazzing out because someone looked at them funny or laughed at their hairstyle.
But pointing this out, however gently, gets you thrown out of the safe space.
Unless the object is confessional in nature.
Perhaps you think
*things*, and if you tell those things to a psychologist/counselor or whatever, you have to worry what sort of pills that person is going to force feed you or what authorities they're going to call.
And if you tell it to a support group, that group's going to point out how sick-wrong or irrational they are the things that you are thinking. Or worse yet, you tell it to a support group of yes-men and they actively reinforce those things and tell you how rational and not sick-wrong they are.
And if you keep it inside, even though you know how sick-wrong or irrational it is, it just kind of consumes your head to the point that you yourself start to feel sick-wrong or irrational...otoh if you have a space where you can just speak it to someone and just get it out, then there's a big sigh of relief and you move on--better able to function because you're not carrying the baggage of whatever the fuck was killing your head in it's unspoken state.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:33:21 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on April 18, 2013, 08:28:34 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 07:36:40 PM
I've always heard of "safe spaces" in the context that it is not a physical space, but a communication environment.
For example, a forum where it is not ok to be a man and post about getting emotional and crying would not be a safe space for that communication because people would mock and belittle that.
There are forums where being openly female or gay is not safe because people will harass you.
Safe spaces, in that context, exist both online and in face-to-face interactions, but they're not tied to a geographical location.
The Red and Black Cafe advertises itself as a safe space.
Either:
1. It's in a dangerous neighborhood, or
2. They have found a label to associate with, that doesn't cost them any money but causes people to connect them to whatever cause they themselves espouse.
It's cynical as hell, but...
:bob: APPROVED :bob:
Definitely 2. They hold a once-monthly open house for activist recruitment. I haven't been to one, but I'd love to see what happens if diametrically opposed groups were both there recruiting at the same time.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 08:53:29 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 18, 2013, 08:48:25 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 08:42:56 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 18, 2013, 08:40:21 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:31:37 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on April 18, 2013, 08:29:35 PM
I work in a place where people diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenia can meet up and have discussions/conversations:
*They are stigmatized daily if not frequently because of their diagnosis in school/work/relationships.
In that place they can feel safe or, have a "safe space" to talk about things that would be minimized in any other place, like "OH, that makes you feel bad? You such pussy" or that would reinforce the stigma "What do you mean? You're crazy, you shouldnt be allowed to live in X way."... but it also isnt all flowers and sunshine, because they can discuss between each other what is reasonable and what isn't, like, being called out on what is actually just their delirium or paranoia rather than facts.
So ideally a "safe space" should provide support and feedback, while not creating a cult that validates any and all thoughts and behaviours.
Best way to do that, in my experience as a member of one of these groups, is a "closed group". IE, people affected by whatever it is, and the counselors. Nobody else. You restrict access, not speech.
how do you do that on the interbutts? I'm thinking that some of the Safe Space thing might be simply a reaction to that dilema?
The same way TCC did. Impose mod law and throw out the dissenters. Which was totally a knee-jerk reaction to someone coming into their forum and shitting all over it. But it was so dead for so long it had taken on a kind of niche mentality.
That's when it's done wrong. I've seen forums (usually more serious ones) where there's good moderation but there's still definitive rules to what you can talk about. Discussing actual methods of self harm or suicide ideas on a mental health forum, for example.
Very true. I can't think of a sure-fire way to create Roger's restricted-access/free-speech idea online that doesn't involve problematic screening methods. Or Matrix-like rabbit hole.
On one hand you've got this fucking dilemma where you have no idea if someone is a genuine something or other and on the other hand you've got this great communication medium where it's much easier to get together with people in the same boat and this can be really therapeutic and shit but the only way to set up the security is by letting everyone in and then kicking them out if they tend to be piss takers or something even more sinister.
Unfortunately the only way of setting this up carries a risk of over zealous censorship and the whole thing devolving into a virtual gulag.
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on April 18, 2013, 08:46:05 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:14:13 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 08:08:40 PM
It is stunting people's ability to speak freely,
The only objection I have is that the above never solves anything. Ever. It generates internal policing by self-appointed "community guardians" who spend their time looking for violations.
The farther you go from free speech, the closer you come to The Monkey. And The Monkey only understands pack mentality, and their climb in status in said pack.
In addition, silence implies consent in the minds of most people, especially people who have something to validate. Whereas I can see an exclusive support group (mothers only or even young mothers only) as being beneficial, an environment where criticism cannot be offered even by your peers (group-wise) has pretty horrific possibilities.
It can--but I think understanding that you're in a safe space rather than a support group can prevent that. You go in knowing that people have consented to silence, not to what you are saying.
oh, I can dissent and criticise in HFC's discussion group, I can't go about it in the knock down drag-out fights we have here. ad hominem is generally frowned upon, and we have a code of conduct and shit.
what isn't on is victim blaming, racism and so on. different safe spaces are more or less tolerant of dissent/argument/trolls. A victim blaming troll - probably an insta-ban, other things are shouted down or pointed out as not on, and maybe a warning given.
Like I can talk about my brush with crazy with the feminist spaces I hang out in (mostly peeps I know IRL) and not be scared of being pushed away or marginalised. it has it's advantages, but it also has its downsides, but mostly due to interpersonal differences in styles of communication and relating to others in the group... The moderation policy has caused some controversy recently, and it's up for discussion at the next meeting. I'm going for "if we have to be strict we have to be transparent about it"
an aside, I went to a house party with those peeps at the weekend. We had a slew of different sexualities, different gender identities, and there were quite a few graphic discussions of sex.
None of them felt creepy, not one fucking bit. Noone really feels that they have to be guarded, and to be honest it's probably one of the most comfortable parties I have been to where I have been able to talk about sex without it getting squicky or feeling uncomfortable.
One of my friends is a rape survivor and got told some horrible shit at Uni from some of the guys there that was kind of victim-blaming, and they got to vent to us,m get some support and advice on getting her Uni to deal with the assholes.
As an internet space for women, PD IS pretty much the safest non-feminist space I can think of that still exists that I have visited, but our knock down drag it out and screech style can be intimidating for some. I'd only recommend PD to one or 2 people from my activist group. (both of the dudes, actually hehe, oh and maybe Quinn, my non-binary friend from Pompey, who I get on with really well with)
The rest of the internet varies, The UK board Mumsnet is mostly women, and that can get pretty hostile sometimes, but no-one will ask you for pics of your bewbs.
I'm not sure about other places online, but I've seen some wretchedly horrible places in the past.
Quote from: Pixie on April 18, 2013, 07:54:26 PM
the potential for fart huffing is why I come here, to check my head.
This, imo, is
doing it right. and "here" being any place to balance out the other.
Occasionally, like earlier I end up asking others to check they heads and explaining why, so, it's an exchange both ways..
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:09:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 18, 2013, 08:08:22 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 07:57:17 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 07:49:31 PM
One other "safe space" thing I've done was a mommy support group where you were allowed to say things about how much being a mom blows, which I think is an important one because moms don't get a lot of safe spaces for that kind of thing. It's a voluntary, temporary agreement: go in, bitch and moan and get it out of your system, then go back to the real world where people will call you on your bullshit and also judge you for every little thing you do ever. I can see how that can ultimately result in fart-huffing, but I think as a temporary thing hiding out in blanket forts every once in a while can be a positive experience.
I see it as a control mechanism and a fart huffing device.
I can see it being very useful in therapy, particularly for recent victims. Done outside of a medical environment, I see it at best as amateur psychology hour, and at worst, a method of telling people to SHUT UP and accept whatever is put in front of them.
Never ever go roaming on Tumblr.
Or, if you do, at least screenshot the outrage for the rest of us.
Will do. I love me some amateur psychology gurus.
Everything about Tumblr rubs me up the wrong way. It's like a perfect storm of idiot teenagers, fanfiction readers, genderqueer special snowflakes, amateur self-diagnosing psychologists and social liberal slacktivists, by and large. It also has a seriously overdeveloped outrage gland.
Quote from: Cain on April 18, 2013, 10:06:40 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 08:09:18 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 18, 2013, 08:08:22 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 07:57:17 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 07:49:31 PM
One other "safe space" thing I've done was a mommy support group where you were allowed to say things about how much being a mom blows, which I think is an important one because moms don't get a lot of safe spaces for that kind of thing. It's a voluntary, temporary agreement: go in, bitch and moan and get it out of your system, then go back to the real world where people will call you on your bullshit and also judge you for every little thing you do ever. I can see how that can ultimately result in fart-huffing, but I think as a temporary thing hiding out in blanket forts every once in a while can be a positive experience.
I see it as a control mechanism and a fart huffing device.
I can see it being very useful in therapy, particularly for recent victims. Done outside of a medical environment, I see it at best as amateur psychology hour, and at worst, a method of telling people to SHUT UP and accept whatever is put in front of them.
Never ever go roaming on Tumblr.
Or, if you do, at least screenshot the outrage for the rest of us.
Will do. I love me some amateur psychology gurus.
Everything about Tumblr rubs me up the wrong way. It's like a perfect storm of idiot teenagers, fanfiction readers, genderqueer special snowflakes, amateur self-diagnosing psychologists and social liberal slacktivists, by and large. It also has a seriously overdeveloped outrage gland.
It's kind of an amazingly awful place. If anyone wants to see the kind of behavior we were talking about a little while ago, with activists whose primary motivation is getting Likes from people who already agree with them, there is literally no better place I can think of.
Outrage is a social commodity there. Anything that you can spin into an ALLCAPS RAGEHATE SOCIAL JUSTICE post, preferably styled as if you were delivering a verbal beatdown to an imaginary bigot, is solid gold for getting attention.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 07:47:52 PM
Quote from: Pixie on April 18, 2013, 07:38:59 PM
Safe space is a term defined here,
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space
So, it's sort of an enforced SHUT UP.
We just throw that sort of person who would misbehave in that manner out of the group.
Some people use it like that.
However, it's more commonly used in situations like support forums and IRL support groups or therapy groups, for instance I was on one for that whole hysterectomy situation, and when I was younger I went to group therapy for childhood sexual abuse and in a situation like that, it's really important that no-one pop off and call anyone a little whore or tell them they must have asked for it/liked it. Both of which I've heard, and both of which are pretty detrimental to a person's healing process.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 11:11:23 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 07:47:52 PM
Quote from: Pixie on April 18, 2013, 07:38:59 PM
Safe space is a term defined here,
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space
So, it's sort of an enforced SHUT UP.
We just throw that sort of person who would misbehave in that manner out of the group.
Some people use it like that.
However, it's more commonly used in situations like support forums and IRL support groups or therapy groups, for instance I was on one for that whole hysterectomy situation, and when I was younger I went to group therapy for childhood sexual abuse and in a situation like that, it's really important that no-one pop off and call anyone a little whore or tell them they must have asked for it/liked it. Both of which I've heard, and both of which are pretty detrimental to a person's healing process.
that's the ideal aim of a safe space, but sometimes monkeybrains and all. Hence why I'm trying to fight for a transparent moderation on the HFC spaces.
Sometimes the Tumblr echo chamber forgets this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc
and sometimes I forget it when I'm pissy or not believed about, say, street harassment or shit is minimised.
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on April 18, 2013, 08:28:34 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 07:36:40 PM
I've always heard of "safe spaces" in the context that it is not a physical space, but a communication environment.
For example, a forum where it is not ok to be a man and post about getting emotional and crying would not be a safe space for that communication because people would mock and belittle that.
There are forums where being openly female or gay is not safe because people will harass you.
Safe spaces, in that context, exist both online and in face-to-face interactions, but they're not tied to a geographical location.
The Red and Black Cafe advertises itself as a safe space.
And it would still be a safe space if it moved to another location, or opened multiple locations, but that building would likely cease to be a safe space if it went out of business and re-opened as a dive bar, because what is making the space safe is the communication environment, not the building it's in.
What I am trying to say is that safe spaces are not like drug-free zones, where everywhere within 1000 feet of a school has extra penalties for drug use whether the people in it agree to that or not. They are more like a support group meeting, where the group session creates a safe space whether it's in conference room A or conference room G. The people who enter that "safe space" are agreeing to abide by the guidelines for it, by virtue of going there.
Quote from: Pixie on April 18, 2013, 09:25:56 PM
As an internet space for women, PD IS pretty much the safest non-feminist space I can think of that still exists that I have visited, but our knock down drag it out and screech style can be intimidating for some. I'd only recommend PD to one or 2 people from my activist group. (both of the dudes, actually hehe, oh and maybe Quinn, my non-binary friend from Pompey, who I get on with really well with)
The rest of the internet varies, The UK board Mumsnet is mostly women, and that can get pretty hostile sometimes, but no-one will ask you for pics of your bewbs.
I'm not sure about other places online, but I've seen some wretchedly horrible places in the past.
PD is pretty fucking "safe", in terms of being populated by people who will call out racism/sexism/homophobia and also are open to re-evaluating their attitudes on issues though intelligent, challenging discussion. It's one of the safest spaces on my internet, actually.
Quote from: Pixie on April 18, 2013, 11:15:35 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 11:11:23 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 18, 2013, 07:47:52 PM
Quote from: Pixie on April 18, 2013, 07:38:59 PM
Safe space is a term defined here,
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space
So, it's sort of an enforced SHUT UP.
We just throw that sort of person who would misbehave in that manner out of the group.
Some people use it like that.
However, it's more commonly used in situations like support forums and IRL support groups or therapy groups, for instance I was on one for that whole hysterectomy situation, and when I was younger I went to group therapy for childhood sexual abuse and in a situation like that, it's really important that no-one pop off and call anyone a little whore or tell them they must have asked for it/liked it. Both of which I've heard, and both of which are pretty detrimental to a person's healing process.
that's the ideal aim of a safe space, but sometimes monkeybrains and all. Hence why I'm trying to fight for a transparent moderation on the HFC spaces.
Sometimes the Tumblr echo chamber forgets this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc
and sometimes I forget it when I'm pissy or not believed about, say, street harassment or shit is minimised.
Yep.
Give humans a good idea, and they WILL fuck it up. :lol:
I'm thinking that where things turn ugly is when "safe" gets conflated with "total conflict aversion."
PD.com is "safe," but even typing the phrase "conflict aversion" caused my browser to laugh at me.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 11:21:58 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on April 18, 2013, 08:28:34 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 07:36:40 PM
I've always heard of "safe spaces" in the context that it is not a physical space, but a communication environment.
For example, a forum where it is not ok to be a man and post about getting emotional and crying would not be a safe space for that communication because people would mock and belittle that.
There are forums where being openly female or gay is not safe because people will harass you.
Safe spaces, in that context, exist both online and in face-to-face interactions, but they're not tied to a geographical location.
The Red and Black Cafe advertises itself as a safe space.
And it would still be a safe space if it moved to another location, or opened multiple locations, but that building would likely cease to be a safe space if it went out of business and re-opened as a dive bar, because what is making the space safe is the communication environment, not the building it's in.
What I am trying to say is that safe spaces are not like drug-free zones, where everywhere within 1000 feet of a school has extra penalties for drug use whether the people in it agree to that or not. They are more like a support group meeting, where the group session creates a safe space whether it's in conference room A or conference room G. The people who enter that "safe space" are agreeing to abide by the guidelines for it, by virtue of going there.
^this^
Quote from: Cainad on April 18, 2013, 11:33:02 PM
I'm thinking that where things turn ugly is when "safe" gets conflated with "total conflict aversion."
PD.com is "safe," but even typing the phrase "conflict aversion" caused my browser to laugh at me.
Also this.
managing the safe space vs ability to question/ dissent is a balancing act for those spaces. It comes out wrong sometimes, well in others, and works in a kind of fucked up way that isn't for the faint hearted, here at PD.
Ting is, at PD we wouldn't have it any other way.
One time, I tried to avert a conflict on PD.com
I woke up three days later stuffed in my own closet, smelling strongly of fish, and a very expensive exorcism bill taped to my door.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 11:29:07 PM
Quote from: Pixie on April 18, 2013, 09:25:56 PM
As an internet space for women, PD IS pretty much the safest non-feminist space I can think of that still exists that I have visited, but our knock down drag it out and screech style can be intimidating for some. I'd only recommend PD to one or 2 people from my activist group. (both of the dudes, actually hehe, oh and maybe Quinn, my non-binary friend from Pompey, who I get on with really well with)
The rest of the internet varies, The UK board Mumsnet is mostly women, and that can get pretty hostile sometimes, but no-one will ask you for pics of your bewbs.
I'm not sure about other places online, but I've seen some wretchedly horrible places in the past.
PD is pretty fucking "safe", in terms of being populated by people who will call out racism/sexism/homophobia and also are open to re-evaluating their attitudes on issues though intelligent, challenging discussion. It's one of the safest spaces on my internet, actually.
IS WHY YOU SPAG'S AREN'T GETTING RID OF ME COMPLETELY ANY POINT SOON.
Actually the BIP stuff and understading the term privilege in social justice speak (I reframe it as shit I don't have to worry about because I'm white, cisgendered, ect**) and changing the bars pretty much go together. Think of "checking your privilege" as like trying to get a small glimpse of the world through someone else's cell.
Make sense?
**(don't get all bugfuck over the word, please, folks. if you can find a better word to define "not -trans*" that isn't just average or normal, then fill your boots. I don't think I can, so i don't really give a shit if it helps frame a discussion for the trans* peeps. )
Quote from: Cainad on April 18, 2013, 11:44:21 PM
One time, I tried to avert a conflict on PD.com
I woke up three days later stuffed in my own closet, smelling strongly of fish, and a very expensive exorcism bill taped to my door.
BWHAHAHAHA!
Quote from: Cainad on April 18, 2013, 11:33:02 PM
I'm thinking that where things turn ugly is when "safe" gets conflated with "total conflict aversion."
PD.com is "safe," but even typing the phrase "conflict aversion" caused my browser to laugh at me.
Fuck yeah. Sometimes it's cathartic or therapeutic or just downright fun to "yell" and rant at someone for saying something that's complete shit. It's a cool feeling. (Even when later it turns out I'm wrong).
The good thing I think (hope) is that the people I respect the most on this board (and IRL, for that matter) are quite capable of losing the plot and calling me the dumbest piece of shit imaginable (even if it later turns out I'm right) but, once the conflict has been resolved, there remains a mutual respect and/or something approaching a friendship.
The ones who keep talking shit and nothing but will generally succumb to our core group of angry monkeys and find it an unpleasant shithole. Moderation the right way - ignore or abuse the twats til they fuck off.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on April 18, 2013, 07:52:23 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 18, 2013, 07:49:31 PM
One other "safe space" thing I've done was a mommy support group where you were allowed to say things about how much being a mom blows, which I think is an important one because moms don't get a lot of safe spaces for that kind of thing. It's a voluntary, temporary agreement: go in, bitch and moan and get it out of your system, then go back to the real world where people will call you on your bullshit and also judge you for every little thing you do ever. I can see how that can ultimately result in fart-huffing, but I think as a temporary thing hiding out in blanket forts every once in a while can be a positive experience.
Dude the amount of guilt and shaming mothers go through is ridiculous. I can see the support group being a good thing.
Yeah, it's off the scale. I mean, if you aren't ready to leave work at the drop of a hat whether your boss is fed up or not, so some teacher can tell you your kid SAID A BAD WORD IN CLASS, you're NEGLECTFUL.
OTOH, while blanket forts probably feel good for awhile, they don't change anything.
I think moms (and most especially SINGLE MOMS who are raked over the coals DAILY for not being able to be in several places at once, not having spare cash every time the (so-called "public") school DEMANDS it and "should have never opened their legs") need to collectively start telling people to SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Quote from: Cainad on April 18, 2013, 11:44:21 PM
One time, I tried to avert a conflict on PD.com
I woke up three days later stuffed in my own closet, smelling strongly of fish, and a very expensive exorcism bill taped to my door.
That was the fucking discount/student rate. You have any idea how hard that shit is?
And then there's the overhead. The hydraulic jack alone costs $125/day.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 18, 2013, 11:56:23 PM
The good thing I think (hope) is that the people I respect the most on this board (and IRL, for that matter) are quite capable of losing the plot and calling me the dumbest piece of shit imaginable
I don't know anyone that does that. :?
I think i did, once
Quote from: Pixie on April 19, 2013, 12:56:21 AM
I think i did, once
Not me. I'm a regular fucking Emily Post.
:lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 19, 2013, 12:52:46 AM
Quote from: Cainad on April 18, 2013, 11:44:21 PM
One time, I tried to avert a conflict on PD.com
I woke up three days later stuffed in my own closet, smelling strongly of fish, and a very expensive exorcism bill taped to my door.
That was the fucking discount/student rate. You have any idea how hard that shit is?
And then there's the overhead. The hydraulic jack alone costs $125/day.
Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful and the work done was top-notch, but couldn't even get the Hardly-Any-Questions-Asked partial reimbursement that my plan is supposed to cover. Fucking bean counters fed me some bullshit line about "unreasonable obscenity policies."
Quote from: Cainad on April 19, 2013, 01:02:52 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 19, 2013, 12:52:46 AM
Quote from: Cainad on April 18, 2013, 11:44:21 PM
One time, I tried to avert a conflict on PD.com
I woke up three days later stuffed in my own closet, smelling strongly of fish, and a very expensive exorcism bill taped to my door.
That was the fucking discount/student rate. You have any idea how hard that shit is?
And then there's the overhead. The hydraulic jack alone costs $125/day.
Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful and the work done was top-notch, but couldn't even get the Hardly-Any-Questions-Asked partial reimbursement that my plan is supposed to cover. Fucking bean counters fed me some bullshit line about "unreasonable obscenity policies."
They're always telling professionals how to do their fucking jobs. :argh!:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 19, 2013, 01:04:47 AM
Quote from: Cainad on April 19, 2013, 01:02:52 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 19, 2013, 12:52:46 AM
Quote from: Cainad on April 18, 2013, 11:44:21 PM
One time, I tried to avert a conflict on PD.com
I woke up three days later stuffed in my own closet, smelling strongly of fish, and a very expensive exorcism bill taped to my door.
That was the fucking discount/student rate. You have any idea how hard that shit is?
And then there's the overhead. The hydraulic jack alone costs $125/day.
Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful and the work done was top-notch, but couldn't even get the Hardly-Any-Questions-Asked partial reimbursement that my plan is supposed to cover. Fucking bean counters fed me some bullshit line about "unreasonable obscenity policies."
They're always telling professionals how to do their fucking jobs. :argh!:
It all worked out in the end, though. I've already regained 40% of my color vision, and I haven't needed any time in the hyperbaric chamber in over a month. All's well that ends well.
"Safe Space" is inherently temporary. It's a fragile bubble that is incredibly useful when needed. Overuse engenders suffocation and asshattery.
Lets face it-- we all need to bitch without recrimination sometimes. When we want to vent without explaining ourselves. Without thread jacking over minimal shit.
Then, we dust ourselves off, and get back into the ring.
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on April 18, 2013, 08:28:34 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 07:36:40 PM
I've always heard of "safe spaces" in the context that it is not a physical space, but a communication environment.
For example, a forum where it is not ok to be a man and post about getting emotional and crying would not be a safe space for that communication because people would mock and belittle that.
There are forums where being openly female or gay is not safe because people will harass you.
Safe spaces, in that context, exist both online and in face-to-face interactions, but they're not tied to a geographical location.
The Red and Black Cafe advertises itself as a safe space.
It certainly isn't safe from bad hygiene and shitty fashion choices.
Quote from: Balls Wellington on April 19, 2013, 07:19:30 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on April 18, 2013, 08:28:34 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 18, 2013, 07:36:40 PM
I've always heard of "safe spaces" in the context that it is not a physical space, but a communication environment.
For example, a forum where it is not ok to be a man and post about getting emotional and crying would not be a safe space for that communication because people would mock and belittle that.
There are forums where being openly female or gay is not safe because people will harass you.
Safe spaces, in that context, exist both online and in face-to-face interactions, but they're not tied to a geographical location.
The Red and Black Cafe advertises itself as a safe space.
It certainly isn't safe from bad hygiene and shitty fashion choices.
:lulz: