Safe Spaces?

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

It is stunting people's ability to speak freely,

The only objection I have is that the above never solves anything.  Ever.  It generates internal policing by self-appointed "community guardians" who spend their time looking for violations.

The farther you go from free speech, the closer you come to The Monkey.  And The Monkey only understands pack mentality, and their climb in status in said pack.

In addition, silence implies consent in the minds of most people, especially people who have something to validate.  Whereas I can see an exclusive support group (mothers only or even young mothers only) as being beneficial, an environment where criticism cannot be offered even by your peers (group-wise) has pretty horrific possibilities.

It can--but I think understanding that you're in a safe space rather than a support group can prevent that. You go in knowing that people have consented to silence, not to what you are saying.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I work in a place where people diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenia can meet up and have discussions/conversations:

*They are stigmatized daily if not frequently because of their diagnosis in school/work/relationships.

In that place they can feel safe or, have a "safe space" to talk about things that would be minimized in any other place, like "OH, that makes you feel bad? You such pussy" or that would reinforce the stigma "What do you mean? You're crazy, you shouldnt be allowed to live in X way."... but it also isnt all flowers and sunshine, because they can discuss between each other what is reasonable and what isn't, like, being called out on what is actually just their delirium or paranoia rather than facts.

So ideally a "safe space" should provide support and feedback, while not creating a cult that validates any and all thoughts and behaviours.

Best way to do that, in my experience as a member of one of these groups, is a "closed group".  IE, people affected by whatever it is, and the counselors.  Nobody else.  You restrict access, not speech.

how do you do that on the interbutts? I'm thinking that some of the Safe Space thing might be simply a reaction to that dilema?

The same way TCC did. Impose mod law and throw out the dissenters. Which was totally a knee-jerk reaction to someone coming into their forum and shitting all over it. But it was so dead for so long it had taken on a kind of niche mentality.

That's when it's done wrong. I've seen forums (usually more serious ones) where there's good moderation but there's still definitive rules to what you can talk about. Discussing actual methods of self harm or suicide ideas on a mental health forum, for example.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

I work in a place where people diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenia can meet up and have discussions/conversations:

*They are stigmatized daily if not frequently because of their diagnosis in school/work/relationships.

In that place they can feel safe or, have a "safe space" to talk about things that would be minimized in any other place, like "OH, that makes you feel bad? You such pussy" or that would reinforce the stigma "What do you mean? You're crazy, you shouldnt be allowed to live in X way."... but it also isnt all flowers and sunshine, because they can discuss between each other what is reasonable and what isn't, like, being called out on what is actually just their delirium or paranoia rather than facts.

So ideally a "safe space" should provide support and feedback, while not creating a cult that validates any and all thoughts and behaviours.

Best way to do that, in my experience as a member of one of these groups, is a "closed group".  IE, people affected by whatever it is, and the counselors.  Nobody else.  You restrict access, not speech.

how do you do that on the interbutts? I'm thinking that some of the Safe Space thing might be simply a reaction to that dilema?

The same way TCC did. Impose mod law and throw out the dissenters. Which was totally a knee-jerk reaction to someone coming into their forum and shitting all over it. But it was so dead for so long it had taken on a kind of niche mentality.

That's when it's done wrong. I've seen forums (usually more serious ones) where there's good moderation but there's still definitive rules to what you can talk about. Discussing actual methods of self harm or suicide ideas on a mental health forum, for example.

Very true. I can't think of a sure-fire way to create Roger's restricted-access/free-speech idea online that doesn't involve problematic screening methods. Or Matrix-like rabbit hole.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

My main issue is that it tends to lead to some people getting totally caught up in their self-victimization and making them even less able to function outside the safe space. They log off the internet, go outside, and spend the entire time spazzing out because someone looked at them funny or laughed at their hairstyle.

But pointing this out, however gently, gets you thrown out of the safe space.

Unless the object is confessional in nature.

Perhaps you think *things*, and if you tell those things to a psychologist/counselor or whatever, you have to worry what sort of pills that person is going to force feed you or what authorities they're going to call.

And if you tell it to a support group, that group's going to point out how sick-wrong or irrational they are the things that you are thinking. Or worse yet, you tell it to a support group of yes-men and they actively reinforce those things and tell you how rational and not sick-wrong they are.

And if you keep it inside, even though you know how sick-wrong or irrational it is, it just kind of consumes your head to the point that you yourself start to feel sick-wrong or irrational...otoh if you have a space where you can just speak it to someone and just get it out, then there's a big sigh of relief and you move on--better able to function because you're not carrying the baggage of whatever the fuck was killing your head in it's unspoken state.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

I've always heard of "safe spaces" in the context that it is not a physical space, but a communication environment.

For example, a forum where it is not ok to be a man and post about getting emotional and crying would not be a safe space for that communication because people would mock and belittle that.

There are forums where being openly female or gay is not safe because people will harass you.

Safe spaces, in that context, exist both online and in face-to-face interactions, but they're not tied to a geographical location.

The Red and Black Cafe advertises itself as a safe space.

Either:

1.  It's in a dangerous neighborhood, or

2.  They have found a label to associate with, that doesn't cost them any money but causes people to connect them to whatever cause they themselves espouse.

It's cynical as hell, but...

APPROVED

Definitely 2. They hold a once-monthly open house for activist recruitment. I haven't been to one, but I'd love to see what happens if diametrically opposed groups were both there recruiting at the same time.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I work in a place where people diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenia can meet up and have discussions/conversations:

*They are stigmatized daily if not frequently because of their diagnosis in school/work/relationships.

In that place they can feel safe or, have a "safe space" to talk about things that would be minimized in any other place, like "OH, that makes you feel bad? You such pussy" or that would reinforce the stigma "What do you mean? You're crazy, you shouldnt be allowed to live in X way."... but it also isnt all flowers and sunshine, because they can discuss between each other what is reasonable and what isn't, like, being called out on what is actually just their delirium or paranoia rather than facts.

So ideally a "safe space" should provide support and feedback, while not creating a cult that validates any and all thoughts and behaviours.

Best way to do that, in my experience as a member of one of these groups, is a "closed group".  IE, people affected by whatever it is, and the counselors.  Nobody else.  You restrict access, not speech.

how do you do that on the interbutts? I'm thinking that some of the Safe Space thing might be simply a reaction to that dilema?

The same way TCC did. Impose mod law and throw out the dissenters. Which was totally a knee-jerk reaction to someone coming into their forum and shitting all over it. But it was so dead for so long it had taken on a kind of niche mentality.

That's when it's done wrong. I've seen forums (usually more serious ones) where there's good moderation but there's still definitive rules to what you can talk about. Discussing actual methods of self harm or suicide ideas on a mental health forum, for example.

Very true. I can't think of a sure-fire way to create Roger's restricted-access/free-speech idea online that doesn't involve problematic screening methods. Or Matrix-like rabbit hole.

On one hand you've got this fucking dilemma where you have no idea if someone is a genuine something or other and on the other hand you've got this great communication medium where it's much easier to get together with people in the same boat and this can be really therapeutic and shit but the only way to set up the security is by letting everyone in and then kicking them out if they tend to be piss takers or something even more sinister.

Unfortunately the only way of setting this up carries a risk of over zealous censorship and the whole thing devolving into a virtual gulag.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

It is stunting people's ability to speak freely,

The only objection I have is that the above never solves anything.  Ever.  It generates internal policing by self-appointed "community guardians" who spend their time looking for violations.

The farther you go from free speech, the closer you come to The Monkey.  And The Monkey only understands pack mentality, and their climb in status in said pack.

In addition, silence implies consent in the minds of most people, especially people who have something to validate.  Whereas I can see an exclusive support group (mothers only or even young mothers only) as being beneficial, an environment where criticism cannot be offered even by your peers (group-wise) has pretty horrific possibilities.

It can--but I think understanding that you're in a safe space rather than a support group can prevent that. You go in knowing that people have consented to silence, not to what you are saying.

oh, I can dissent and criticise in HFC's discussion group, I can't go about it in the knock down drag-out fights we have here. ad hominem is generally frowned upon, and we have a code of conduct and shit.

what isn't on is victim blaming, racism and so on. different safe spaces are more or less tolerant of dissent/argument/trolls. A victim blaming troll - probably an insta-ban, other things are shouted down or pointed out as not on, and maybe a warning given.

Like I can talk about my brush with crazy with the feminist spaces I hang out in (mostly peeps I know IRL) and not be scared of being pushed away or marginalised. it has it's advantages, but it also has its downsides, but mostly due to interpersonal differences in styles of communication and relating to others in the group... The moderation policy has caused some controversy recently, and it's up for discussion at the next meeting. I'm going for "if we have to be strict we have to be transparent about it"

an aside, I went to a house party with those peeps at the weekend. We had a slew of different sexualities, different gender identities, and there were quite a few graphic discussions of sex.

None of them felt creepy, not one fucking bit. Noone really feels that they have to be guarded, and to be honest it's probably one of the most comfortable parties I have been to where I have been able to talk about sex without it getting squicky or feeling uncomfortable.

One of my friends is a rape survivor and got told some horrible shit at Uni from some of the guys there that was kind of victim-blaming, and they got to vent to us,m get some support and advice on getting her Uni to deal with the assholes.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

As an internet space for women, PD IS pretty much the safest non-feminist space I can think of that still exists that I have visited, but our knock down drag it out and screech style can be intimidating for some. I'd only recommend PD to one or 2 people from my activist group. (both of the dudes, actually hehe, oh and maybe Quinn, my non-binary friend from Pompey, who I get on with really well with)

The rest of the internet varies, The UK board Mumsnet is mostly women, and that can get pretty hostile sometimes, but no-one will ask you for pics of your bewbs.

I'm not sure about other places online,  but I've seen some wretchedly horrible places in the past.

[Bu🤠ns]

the potential for fart huffing is why I come here, to check my head.

This, imo, is doing it right.  and "here" being any place to balance out the other.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Occasionally, like earlier I end up asking others to check they heads and explaining why, so, it's an exchange both ways..

[Cain]

One other "safe space" thing I've done was a mommy support group where you were allowed to say things about how much being a mom blows, which I think is an important one because moms don't get a lot of safe spaces for that kind of thing. It's a voluntary, temporary agreement: go in, bitch and moan and get it out of your system, then go back to the real world where people will call you on your bullshit and also judge you for every little thing you do ever. I can see how that can ultimately result in fart-huffing, but I think as a temporary thing hiding out in blanket forts every once in a while can be a positive experience.

I see it as a control mechanism and a fart huffing device.

I can see it being very useful in therapy, particularly for recent victims. Done outside of a medical environment, I see it at best as amateur psychology hour, and at worst, a method of telling people to SHUT UP and accept whatever is put in front of them.

Never ever go roaming on Tumblr.

Or, if you do, at least screenshot the outrage for the rest of us.

Will do.  I love me some amateur psychology gurus.

Everything about Tumblr rubs me up the wrong way.  It's like a perfect storm of idiot teenagers, fanfiction readers, genderqueer special snowflakes, amateur self-diagnosing psychologists and social liberal slacktivists, by and large.  It also has a seriously overdeveloped outrage gland. 

[Cainad (dec.)]

One other "safe space" thing I've done was a mommy support group where you were allowed to say things about how much being a mom blows, which I think is an important one because moms don't get a lot of safe spaces for that kind of thing. It's a voluntary, temporary agreement: go in, bitch and moan and get it out of your system, then go back to the real world where people will call you on your bullshit and also judge you for every little thing you do ever. I can see how that can ultimately result in fart-huffing, but I think as a temporary thing hiding out in blanket forts every once in a while can be a positive experience.

I see it as a control mechanism and a fart huffing device.

I can see it being very useful in therapy, particularly for recent victims. Done outside of a medical environment, I see it at best as amateur psychology hour, and at worst, a method of telling people to SHUT UP and accept whatever is put in front of them.

Never ever go roaming on Tumblr.

Or, if you do, at least screenshot the outrage for the rest of us.

Will do.  I love me some amateur psychology gurus.

Everything about Tumblr rubs me up the wrong way.  It's like a perfect storm of idiot teenagers, fanfiction readers, genderqueer special snowflakes, amateur self-diagnosing psychologists and social liberal slacktivists, by and large.  It also has a seriously overdeveloped outrage gland.

It's kind of an amazingly awful place. If anyone wants to see the kind of behavior we were talking about a little while ago, with activists whose primary motivation is getting Likes from people who already agree with them, there is literally no better place I can think of.

Outrage is a social commodity there. Anything that you can spin into an ALLCAPS RAGEHATE SOCIAL JUSTICE post, preferably styled as if you were delivering a verbal beatdown to an imaginary bigot, is solid gold for getting attention.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Safe space is a term defined here, 

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space

So, it's sort of an enforced SHUT UP.

We just throw that sort of person who would misbehave in that manner out of the group.

Some people use it like that.

However, it's more commonly used in situations like support forums and IRL support groups or therapy groups, for instance I was on one for that whole hysterectomy situation, and when I was younger I went to group therapy for childhood sexual abuse and in a situation like that, it's really important that no-one pop off and call anyone a little whore or tell them they must have asked for it/liked it. Both of which I've heard, and both of which are pretty detrimental to a person's healing process.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Safe space is a term defined here, 

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space

So, it's sort of an enforced SHUT UP.

We just throw that sort of person who would misbehave in that manner out of the group.

Some people use it like that.

However, it's more commonly used in situations like support forums and IRL support groups or therapy groups, for instance I was on one for that whole hysterectomy situation, and when I was younger I went to group therapy for childhood sexual abuse and in a situation like that, it's really important that no-one pop off and call anyone a little whore or tell them they must have asked for it/liked it. Both of which I've heard, and both of which are pretty detrimental to a person's healing process.

that's the ideal aim of a safe space, but sometimes monkeybrains and all. Hence why I'm trying to fight for a transparent moderation on the HFC spaces.

Sometimes the Tumblr echo chamber forgets this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc

and sometimes I forget it when I'm pissy or not believed about, say, street harassment or shit is minimised.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I've always heard of "safe spaces" in the context that it is not a physical space, but a communication environment.

For example, a forum where it is not ok to be a man and post about getting emotional and crying would not be a safe space for that communication because people would mock and belittle that.

There are forums where being openly female or gay is not safe because people will harass you.

Safe spaces, in that context, exist both online and in face-to-face interactions, but they're not tied to a geographical location.

The Red and Black Cafe advertises itself as a safe space.

And it would still be a safe space if it moved to another location, or opened multiple locations, but that building would likely cease to be a safe space if it went out of business and re-opened as a dive bar, because what is making the space safe is the communication environment, not the building it's in.

What I am trying to say is that safe spaces are not like drug-free zones, where everywhere within 1000 feet of a school has extra penalties for drug use whether the people in it agree to that or not. They are more like a support group meeting, where the group session creates a safe space whether it's in conference room A or conference room G. The people who enter that "safe space" are agreeing to abide by the guidelines for it, by virtue of going there.