Meanwhile, I see things are getting interesting in Turkey.
Gezi Park is the focal point of the protests and is, in a sense, the straw that broke the camel's back. This (http://hughpope.com/2013/06/01/a-ringside-seat-as-istanbul-protests/) is quite good at explaining why:
QuoteThe demonstrations are already about a lot more than sympathy for condemned trees in a street-widening scheme at the Gezi Park, and have taken on a distinctly anti-government tone. Reasons for the protests I've heard from friends over the past 48 hours include: a reaction to the ruling party's focus on building shopping centers everywhere, even in Istanbul's last patches of green, like the future mall planned for Gezi Park; how the half of the population that didn't vote for the government resents what it sees as its increasingly high-handed, majoritarian, we-know-best style; among secularists, a sense that the ruling party revealed a Islamist agenda that could infringe its lifestyle with sudden new regulations this month on alcohol consumption (my blog on that here (http://hughpope.com/2013/05/23/moral-rectitude-intrigue-dodgy-licenses-and-turkeys-anti-alcohol-campaign/)); among the 10 per cent Alevi minority, anger at this month's choice of Ottoman Sultan Selim the Grim's name for a third bridge over the Bosphorus, since he killed many Alevis; the general feeling that there is little transparency in what the government plans and does, and that the media is under great pressure not to discuss real events or who benefits financially from projects (one mainstream TV program during last night's was about radiation on Mars!); and above all, a sense of powerlessness, and frustration at the inadequacy of the main political opposition parties, which have left the bulk of secularists of Istanbul with a feeling that they've had no real political representation for years.
The Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, condemned the demonstrators as "extremists running wild".
According to the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/01/turkey-protests-second-day):
QuoteThe Turkish Doctors' Association said nearly 1,000 people had been injured in Istanbul on Friday, including six who lost eyes after being hit by gas canisters.
Ozturk Turkdogan, the head of the Turkish Human Rights Association, said hundreds of people in several cities had been injured in the police crackdown and a few hundred people had been arrested. The Dogan news agency said 81 demonstrators were detained in Istanbul.
Turkish police have previously been accused of excessive use of teargas and violence to stop demonstrations, including at this year's May Day rally.
Turkdogan said: "The use of gas at such proportions is unacceptable. It is a danger to public health and as such is a crime. Unfortunately, there isn't a prosecutor brave enough to stand up to police. The people are standing up against Erdogan who is trying to monopolise power and is meddling in all aspects of life."
And (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/01/turkey-istanbul-erdogan-demo-protests):
QuoteTurkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, was facing the biggest challenge to his 10-year rule this weekend as parts of Istanbul turned into a war zone. Violent clashes took place between riot police and tens of thousands of demonstrators outraged at the heavy-handed response of authorities to an environmental protest on Friday.
The eruption of frustration with Erdogan's government spread to a dozen other Turkish cities overnight and supporters gathered worldwide in Boston, London, Barcelona and Amsterdam to voice solidarity with the protesters.
Police eventually withdrew from the city's central Taksim Square early on Saturday evening, bringing an end to the clashes. By late night thousands of people were celebrating there. "This is it, we won, Gezi Park is ours again", said Burcu Kurhan, 33, one protester who joined the crowds in the inner-city park where peaceful protests started on Monday. "But we hope that Tayyip will have to go!"
Several overturned police and municipal vehicles were covered in graffiti demanding the government resigns.
QuoteThe US has expressed concern over the way the Turkish government is handling the situation, and the British consulate in Istanbul took the unusual step of publicly rebuking the government for overreacting after a teargas canister landed in the consulate gardens.
"Our government actively supports the Syrian opposition, and they constantly call for more democratic rights in Syria. But look what they do to those who oppose their own ideas and policies – they try to shut us up with teargas and violence," said Nejla Gulten, a 32-year-old sociologist. "When the prime minister speaks about women, he never speaks about the problem of violence against women, but only about how many children we should have. He shapes every issue in Turkey to suit himself."
On the one hand, I can definitely understand not liking the ruling party in Turkey. Erdogan has distinct authoritarian and personality cult tendencies, which, when mixed in with both Islam and Neoliberalism, create some highly disturbing vibes.
However, historically, secular forces within Turkey have been quite content with authoritarianism, in the name of protecting the state from Islamists and other loonies (usually covertly supported by said secular forces, to justify their rule).
As such, Erdogan has a lot of enemies, in the west and his own military, who would gladly see him crash and burn. He's been on the UK and US shit list for a while, over Iraq and other things, which explains why both countries have rebuked his conduct and not, say, the Bahraini Monarchy.
I hope the protestors can score a victory here without being used by outside powers and then discarded the moment they no longer benefit said powers agendas...but it's not so often that happens. At the very least, weakening Erdogan will undermine his chances at obtaining the Presidency, where he could do even more damage to the political institutions of the republic, so there is that.
First thoughts go to the region at large. With Syria still fucking things up, I can see this as a nice excuse to get some friendly boots on the ground next door.Just in case.Will get into it tomorrow when fresh.
There was a thing on imgur, yesterday, about the media blackout of the protests and how everyone should Tweet and raise a ruckus and all that jazz to try and get the protesters some help. And then a few hours later it was all about how people were being killed and shit had gotten crazy.
The narrative I've been seeing on twitter is that the after the peaceful protest, the gov't announced it wouldn't destroy that particular park, and then sent in an army of cops to tear gas, beat and kill the protesters that it had publically agreed with. 48 hours later, people are still being gassed, beaten, and killed. Presumably, the protesters that are now outdoors and being beaten are there to protest the treatment of protesters + the government in general more than anything else.
(by "on twitter" I mean "tweets re-tweeted by Neil Gaiman.")
Whoooo, Hail Eris, there are Golden Apples flying everywhere here!
I have some friends trapped in the Konak district of Izmir, police violence has continued to escalate here. Last night, police were shooting canisters of tear gas into people's homes, because they were giving refuge to the protesters. Fortunately, here in our village things are quiet and safe. We were drinking with the local cops Saturday night and asked them what they thought and they basically said that there's no way in hell that they would use tear gas, pepper spray or anything else on the locals. (Yes, us and the cops, drinking well past 10 PM... ah Turkey!)
The videos coming out of Izmir, Adana, Ankara, Istanbul and elsewhere are very graphic and there are very obvious examples of police brutality. Reports yesterday indicated that some in the military came out to help the protesters and came under attack by the police forces. In Izmir, the local military base and the military police were handing out gas masks to the protesters.
Cain's point about the secular Kemalists is correct. Both sides are authoritarian. Under the Kemalists, for example, women were forbidden from wearing a head scarf in public schools and universities or at any government job. On the other hand, Erdogan, pushes through capitalistic and conservative policies without any input from the public. However, thats how this particular republic works... people don't get a vote on issues, just a vote on representatives.
On the upside, once the police violence started, Kurds, Conservatives, Liberals, ultranationalists etc etc have all come together. For all its faults, Turks back each other up when the shit hits the fan. This will very likely hurt the AKP in the next election.
Ironically, my passport and new residence visa are at the Immigration Police office in Izmir waiting for me to pick them up... the whole area, though, is surrounded by protesters and cops and the roads are shut down.
Discord, Confusion, Strife... Eris is out in force here.
I also understand that, while a lot of the people dealing with the social media for the protestors
do tend to be liberal secularists, the Kemalists have a rather large presence in the background. I see the MHP, jumped up fascists that they are, are taking advantage of the situation in Parliament.
For those unfamiliar with the Turkish political situation, Craig Murray is a solid starting point (http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/talking-turkey/):
QuoteFor every secular liberal in Istanbul there are two secular ultra-nationalist militarists. To westerners they stress the secular bit and try to hide the rest, and this works on the uncurious (being uncurious is a required attribute to get employed by the mainstream media). Of course there are decent, liberal, environmentalist protestors and the media will have no difficulty, now they have finally noticed something is happening, in filling our screens with beautiful young women who fit that description, to interview. But that is not all of what is going on here.
There certainly was no more freedom in Turkey before the AKP came to power. Government for decades had been either by the Kemalist military in dictatorship or occasionally by civilian governments they tolerated and controlled. People suddenly have short memories if they think protest was generally tolerated pre-Erdogan, and policy towards the Kurds was massively more vicious.
The military elite dominated society and through corruption they dominated commerce and the economy. The interests of a protected and generally fascist urban upper middle class were the only interests that counted at all. The slightest threat to those interests brought a military coup – again, and again, and again. Religion was barely tolerated, and they allied closely with Israel and the United States.
When Erdogan first came to power it was the best thing that had happened to Turkey for decades. The forgotten people of the Anatolian villages, and the lower middle class of the cities, had a voice and a position in the state for the first time. In individual towns and villages, the military and their clients who had exercised absolute authority had their power suddenly diminished. I witnessed this and it was a new dawn, and it felt joyous.
Then of course Erdogan gradually got sucked in to power, to money, to NATO, to the corruption of his Black Sea mafia and to arrogance. It all went very wrong, as it always seems to. That is where we are now.
Yes of course I want those pretty, genuinely liberal environmentalist girls in the park to take power. But they won't. Look at the hard-eyed fascists behind them. Look at the western politicians licking their lips thinking about the chance to get a nice very right wing, anti-Muslim and pro-Israel government into power.
You can also look at one of my rants about the Turkish "deep state" done a few years back - that should fill you in nicely on what the Kemalists considered an acceptable political system.
On the nose as usual, Cain.
It's really a battle between two hardline positions, while most of the citizens are much more moderate. The Anatolian middle class felt repressed when they couldn't wear head scarves and were discriminated against in job selection because of their overt Islamic dress (still 'moderate' by most ME Islamic standards). The kruds opression under the ultranationalists wasn't because they were Kurds, as much as it was because they wanted to retain their Kurdish culture, language, laws, beliefs etc. For Kurds that integrated with Turkish society, they had no problems. The Kemalists see "Turkish First" as the ONLY mantra to manage this society of many cultures. You join in with everyone else, or else.
Erdogan, when he came to power worked hard to broker deals and roll back the anti-religious laws. Over the past two years, though, he's ramped up the "moral legislation" and its been a heyday for the secularists to wave like a banner of 'fascism'. Often, he seems to make completely absurd statements, just to rouse support from his base while pissing off all of the moderates and secularists. He still had a lot of support though.
However, after this weekend, with youtube and twitter videos and pictures of obvious police brutality, everyone is very upset. The village I live in is one of the most conservative in the Aegean region (which isn't saying much actually). The villagers are very moderate, but cling to some conservative dress etc. Here, few were against Erdogan/AKP, and few were against the CHP/MHP. This weekend and today, though, everyone is very angry. Busloads of people left from the local town and went to join the protests in Izmir. Most of the people I've talked to aren't being pro-CHP/MHP they're just freaking out because, no matter what their political/religious views, they see the protesters are brothers and sisters and they can't believe the level of violence.
There are always protests in Turkey, often the police respond with a heavy hand. The difference, this time, was the wide visibility due to the Internet and social media. Additionally, while news agencies are not covering the mess... major actors, tv personalities etc are in the streets.
One of the most popular shows on tv here is a long running drama about Sultan Suleiman. There are photos all over turkish facebook of the lead actor (the guy that plays the Sultan) arm and arm with others in the streets. One of their most popular late night talk show hosts, Okan Bayulgen, a outspoken political philosopher has been ranting for days about whats happening. This has thrown a spotlight on stuff thats been ignored for the past couple years.
It may be that the MHP or CHP are manipulating the situation, but Erdogan is not helping matters. This weekend he accused all the protesters of being drunks. He said that no matter what "we have decided" what to do with the park and no protest will change that. He threatened "if they bring 100,000 protesters, we can call 500,000 supporters". He said that new direction had been given to the cops about how to handle the situation, yet some of the worst police brutality has happened since then.
In Istanbul, the police herded hundreds of protesters into a subway station, shut down the service, closed the doors then launched tear gas into the station. Yesterday, for the first time they used real bullets and some protesters are dead (not to mention the ones dead from direct hits with water canons, being shot in the head with tear gas canisters and run over by panzers). Today, he left the country for a four day trip to North Africa and basically said in an interview that the protesters should STFU, because nothing was going to change and that he wasn't a dictator and no violence was used against the protesters.
I was supposed to go to Izmir today to get my passport and visa back from the immigration police. The taxi driver apologized and said we can't get near the place and this morning a taxi cab had a tear gas canister shot into the vehicle.
So, I'm gonna stay here at the beach where everything is quiet.
ETA: And for some real humor:
Syria is advising its citizens to avoid visiting Turkey because its too dangerous. :horrormirth:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/03/world/meast/syria-turkey-travel-warning/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 (http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/03/world/meast/syria-turkey-travel-warning/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)
For such a big supporter of the "Arab Spring", Erdogan doesn't seem to realise it was the economic conditions created by the kind of policies he supports , that led to the initial unrest, and that heavy-handed police action was the catalyst for wider political disruption.
He's playing such a dangerous game here, and doesn't even seem to realise it.
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 03, 2013, 12:34:43 AM
First thoughts go to the region at large. With Syria still fucking things up, I can see this as a nice excuse to get some friendly boots on the ground next door.Just in case.Will get into it tomorrow when fresh.
Just started to see what's up with this. Way off base with this I think.
Would this fall under the generic "Arab Spring" markers yet?
This:
QuoteThen of course Erdogan gradually got sucked in to power, to money, to NATO, to the corruption of his Black Sea mafia and to arrogance. It all went very wrong, as it always seems to. That is where we are now.
Yes of course I want those pretty, genuinely liberal environmentalist girls in the park to take power. But they won't. Look at the hard-eyed fascists behind them. Look at the western politicians licking their lips thinking about the chance to get a nice very right wing, anti-Muslim and pro-Israel government into power.
means I've got a lot more reading to do really.
It may be factoring in. Turkey has taken a strong line against Assad's regime, but is it strong enough for the Neocons? No, of course not, nothing ever is.
That said, you may want to check out the leaked State Department cables from Ankara (http://wikileaks.org/origin/186_0.html). They are, of course, from an American POV, so remember your pinch of salt, but they are nevertheless quite interesting. Some refer to the corruption within the Turkish state, but I've not found those cables on a cursory search thus far.
Ah, here's a relevant one (http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/11/09ANKARA1691.html):
QuoteThe past six months have seen an increase in cases where the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) has used legal and extraordinary channels to intimidate, coerce or attack its political opponents or those who might present a check on its power. Most of these cases highlighted by the media seem to be within the law or regulation, as the AKP is quick to assert. However, Turkey's system of government has few checks and balances in place to prevent the abuse of government structures by the executive branch for political objectives, and the AKP is using this to its maximum advantage. The problem in assessing the impact of all of this, as in the Ergenekon case, is that the "targets" of the AKP -- such as the TGS and the "deep state" themselves -- long exploited the system's authoritarian, weak checks-and-balances nature for their own advantage. END SUMMARY.
Erdogan believes he has majority support and majority support = democracy and whatever he says, as the democratically elected leader is right and just. I don't know if he's lost his mind, become corrupt with power or is really naive enough to believe what he's saying. Meanwhile President Gul is basically arguing that democracy means more than just elections and that the people should have a right to protest. Since he and Erdogan have been very close allies, this is an interesting development.
Realistically, life in Turkey is good, the economy is good, most people live very free lives (secular or conservative). Just a few months ago, Erdogan actually cut a deal with the PKK to end the violence and bring more freedom to the Kurds. The situation here is far more liberal than in Syria or Lebanon or life under Qaddafi. This would not have happened if the police had not acted so extremely in Istanbul. That extreme behavior is what drove the national response, and once the response started, it brought up everything people didn't like about Erdogan. His new laws on alcohol, his infrastructure projects (which boil down to "I'm gonna pave X and replace it with a shopping mall, new condos etc and you can STFU if you don't like it"), his conservative pro-religious comments... all of it. If the police had not become so violent, the protest would have been confined to a few hundred hippies trying to protect some trees in Istanbul.
Nice cable links also Cain, those definitely hit the nail on the head. On the Syria situation, a large number of the country want to see more action from Ankara to end the mess in Syria, another large group blame AKP for the recent Syrian attacks on the Turks (car bombs) in the east and believe he should NOT be supplying arms to the rebels. Only a very few of his core base has supported his current position on Syria.
Its just another explosive issue among many that Taksim square has been the fuse for.
I don't know if its cognitive dissonance on Erdogan's part, or if he really thinks he is in the right. Either way, I think this will have a long term impact on the AKP in the upcoming elections. For the first time, I have some doubts about him winning the election next year (his term as PM is up, but he's going to run for President).
The Kurds have been very supportive of the AKP, but in an interview with an elderly Kurdish lady in conservative dress today, they asked what she thought and she replied "I want to kill him, give me a bomb and I will shove it up his ass". I don't think this is going the way he thought it would.
The mayors of Antayla and Izmir have ordered that no water be given to the police to refill their water cannon vehicles. These are generally liberal/secular areas, but its quickly pitting the police against everyone.
Imgur has a gallery of some of the crowd control weapons being used
http://imgur.com/gallery/1Xung
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 03, 2013, 03:00:01 PM
Erdogan believes he has majority support and majority support = democracy and whatever he says, as the democratically elected leader is right and just. I don't know if he's lost his mind, become corrupt with power or is really naive enough to believe what he's saying. Meanwhile President Gul is basically arguing that democracy means more than just elections and that the people should have a right to protest. Since he and Erdogan have been very close allies, this is an interesting development.
Realistically, life in Turkey is good, the economy is good, most people live very free lives (secular or conservative). Just a few months ago, Erdogan actually cut a deal with the PKK to end the violence and bring more freedom to the Kurds. The situation here is far more liberal than in Syria or Lebanon or life under Qaddafi. This would not have happened if the police had not acted so extremely in Istanbul. That extreme behavior is what drove the national response, and once the response started, it brought up everything people didn't like about Erdogan. His new laws on alcohol, his infrastructure projects (which boil down to "I'm gonna pave X and replace it with a shopping mall, new condos etc and you can STFU if you don't like it"), his conservative pro-religious comments... all of it. If the police had not become so violent, the protest would have been confined to a few hundred hippies trying to protect some trees in Istanbul.
Nice cable links also Cain, those definitely hit the nail on the head. On the Syria situation, a large number of the country want to see more action from Ankara to end the mess in Syria, another large group blame AKP for the recent Syrian attacks on the Turks (car bombs) in the east and believe he should NOT be supplying arms to the rebels. Only a very few of his core base has supported his current position on Syria.
Its just another explosive issue among many that Taksim square has been the fuse for.
I don't know if its cognitive dissonance on Erdogan's part, or if he really thinks he is in the right. Either way, I think this will have a long term impact on the AKP in the upcoming elections. For the first time, I have some doubts about him winning the election next year (his term as PM is up, but he's going to run for President).
The Kurds have been very supportive of the AKP, but in an interview with an elderly Kurdish lady in conservative dress today, they asked what she thought and she replied "I want to kill him, give me a bomb and I will shove it up his ass". I don't think this is going the way he thought it would.
You had to say that, I'm guessing.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 03, 2013, 03:17:43 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 03, 2013, 03:00:01 PM
Erdogan believes he has majority support and majority support = democracy and whatever he says, as the democratically elected leader is right and just. I don't know if he's lost his mind, become corrupt with power or is really naive enough to believe what he's saying. Meanwhile President Gul is basically arguing that democracy means more than just elections and that the people should have a right to protest. Since he and Erdogan have been very close allies, this is an interesting development.
Realistically, life in Turkey is good, the economy is good, most people live very free lives (secular or conservative). Just a few months ago, Erdogan actually cut a deal with the PKK to end the violence and bring more freedom to the Kurds. The situation here is far more liberal than in Syria or Lebanon or life under Qaddafi. This would not have happened if the police had not acted so extremely in Istanbul. That extreme behavior is what drove the national response, and once the response started, it brought up everything people didn't like about Erdogan. His new laws on alcohol, his infrastructure projects (which boil down to "I'm gonna pave X and replace it with a shopping mall, new condos etc and you can STFU if you don't like it"), his conservative pro-religious comments... all of it. If the police had not become so violent, the protest would have been confined to a few hundred hippies trying to protect some trees in Istanbul.
Nice cable links also Cain, those definitely hit the nail on the head. On the Syria situation, a large number of the country want to see more action from Ankara to end the mess in Syria, another large group blame AKP for the recent Syrian attacks on the Turks (car bombs) in the east and believe he should NOT be supplying arms to the rebels. Only a very few of his core base has supported his current position on Syria.
Its just another explosive issue among many that Taksim square has been the fuse for.
I don't know if its cognitive dissonance on Erdogan's part, or if he really thinks he is in the right. Either way, I think this will have a long term impact on the AKP in the upcoming elections. For the first time, I have some doubts about him winning the election next year (his term as PM is up, but he's going to run for President).
The Kurds have been very supportive of the AKP, but in an interview with an elderly Kurdish lady in conservative dress today, they asked what she thought and she replied "I want to kill him, give me a bomb and I will shove it up his ass". I don't think this is going the way he thought it would.
You had to say that, I'm guessing.
?
No, that's what I get from talking to the Turks. Journalists/politicians/etc have been tossed in jail, but the average Turk hasn't had any problems. IT hasn't been 'repressive' like many of the countries where Arab Spring has hit. Its certainly not America, but its been "good" for Turks compared to previous regimes... until now, of course.
But this is how it seems to be here... every time one side overthrows the other side, stuff gets better for the repressed... then eventually, it gets worse for the other side. It's like a continual flip flop between oppressing the secularists or oppressing the religious. They need a party that can balance both... but there isn't currently a party like that.
I mean, when you're a secularist living near extremist Islamic countries, you fear any action that looks like its going towards Islamism... but if you're religious, you fear any action that is headed toward nationalism/Kemalism. If you're in the middle, you're generally OK because neither side directly affects you.
Under the nationalists, you could be Muslim or Kurd... as long as you were a Turk above all, as long as you were willing to compromise your ethnic or religious views to uphold the Nation first. Under the AKP, you can be secular, but you have to deal with laws that are leaning more and more toward conservative religious views.
"You can't buy liquor at the store after 10 PM", "If college students want to wear a headscarf, they are allowed" etc.
Kemalists see the above laws as becoming more Islamic. The religious see them as reducing oppression (well the second one anyway). The liquor law that everyone is so pissed about isn't much different than in many states and European countries.
It's really absurd.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 03, 2013, 03:10:35 PM
The mayors of Antayla and Izmir have ordered that no water be given to the police to refill their water cannon vehicles. These are generally liberal/secular areas, but its quickly pitting the police against everyone.
The bold - Just like in real life.
Also:
QuoteIt may be that the MHP or CHP are manipulating the situation, but Erdogan is not helping matters. This weekend he accused all the protesters of being drunks. He said that no matter what "we have decided" what to do with the park and no protest will change that. He threatened "if they bring 100,000 protesters, we can call 500,000 supporters". He said that new direction had been given to the cops about how to handle the situation, yet some of the worst police brutality has happened since then.
I'm fairly sure the police are carrying out their new directions as instructed. Situations like this there's usual the public order to the cops "Don't hurt them and be nice" with the unspoken order in the barracks of "Go to town boys. Go. To. Town." I occasionally like to imagine a "Yee-hah!" after that, it seems to go with the mentality of pretty much every nationality of cop.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/600638_10201252268937571_2049095200_n.jpg)
:lulz:
Expected update:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22767622
QuoteTurkey's Deputy PM Bulent Arinc has apologised to protesters injured in demonstrations opposing the demolition of an Istanbul park.
The original protests over the redevelopment of Gezi Park were "just and legitimate", he said, offering to meet the organisers.
He called for the protests to end, saying they had been taken over by "terrorist elements".
The protests have escalated into five days of unrest in cities across Turkey.
"The use of excessive force shown against the people who initially started this protest with the motive of protecting the environment was wrong. And it was unfair. So I apologise to those citizens," Mr Arinc said at a news conference in Ankara.
However, he added: "I do not think we need to apologise to those who create destruction of public property in the streets and who try to prevent the freedom of the people in the streets."
I wonder if he's got the testicular fortitude to include the police in that assessment. I doubt it. Police never hurt anyone, right?
Protests are continuing and getting closer. A protest has been announced in the town nearest us... so 45 minutes away has turned into 5 minutes away.
NTV has issued an apology for failing to cover the original protests and is now covering the situation in detail. They stated that their viewers felt betrayed and many of their employees have resigned in protest there are some videos of NTV employees leaving the building to join protesters. Several other TV channels are now covering the protests as well.
In Istanbul last night, some police joined protesters in their pro-Turkey/pro-republic chants ("Red, White, Red White" - the colors of the Turkish flag).
Meanwhile, 24 people have been arrested in Izmir for posting on social media. Most of the major news outlets are covering this in a negative way though, so its likely that they'll soon be released.
In other news, Erdogan showed up for a planned meeting with the PM of Morocco. The PM of Morocco refused to meet with him. In some of the regions where Erdogan won strong support during the election, people are holding signs apologizing for their votes, others are holding signs saying "You say you're holding back 50%, but we're already here." Thats a reference to Erdogan saying that he was holding back his supporters and if he gacve the word they would come out and 'end the protesters'. Dunno what kind of leader threatens half his population with the other half, but it appears that his comments may have actually eroded his base somewhat.
In Gezi Park, protesters are now celebrating with buffets of free food and exercise programs. The police have fallen back completely around Taksim Square/Gezi Park.
Even though the violence has calmed, the protests continue to grow in size, the protest in our local town was in the thousands of attendees and the police stood by and cheered.
Should be an interesting next few days.
ETA: Apparently Erdogan's next stop on his North Africa tour was Tunis. The Tunisians are also boycotting him and the groups invited to a state dinner with him have declined the invite.
:lulz:
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 05, 2013, 11:56:24 AM
NTV has issued an apology for failing to cover the original protests and is now covering the situation in detail. They stated that their viewers felt betrayed and many of their employees have resigned in protest there are some videos of NTV employees leaving the building to join protesters. Several other TV channels are now covering the protests as well.
In Istanbul last night, some police joined protesters in their pro-Turkey/pro-republic chants ("Red, White, Red White" - the colors of the Turkish flag).
Meanwhile, 24 people have been arrested in Izmir for posting on social media. Most of the major news outlets are covering this in a negative way though, so its likely that they'll soon be released.
In other news, Erdogan showed up for a planned meeting with the PM of Morocco. The PM of Morocco refused to meet with him. In some of the regions where Erdogan won strong support during the election, people are holding signs apologizing for their votes, others are holding signs saying "You say you're holding back 50%, but we're already here." Thats a reference to Erdogan saying that he was holding back his supporters and if he gacve the word they would come out and 'end the protesters'. Dunno what kind of leader threatens half his population with the other half, but it appears that his comments may have actually eroded his base somewhat.
In Gezi Park, protesters are now celebrating with buffets of free food and exercise programs. The police have fallen back completely around Taksim Square/Gezi Park.
Even though the violence has calmed, the protests continue to grow in size, the protest in our local town was in the thousands of attendees and the police stood by and cheered.
Should be an interesting next few days.
ETA: Apparently Erdogan's next stop on his North Africa tour was Tunis. The Tunisians are also boycotting him and the groups invited to a state dinner with him have declined the invite.
:lulz:
That could get interesting.
Quote from: :regret: on June 05, 2013, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 05, 2013, 11:56:24 AM
NTV has issued an apology for failing to cover the original protests and is now covering the situation in detail. They stated that their viewers felt betrayed and many of their employees have resigned in protest there are some videos of NTV employees leaving the building to join protesters. Several other TV channels are now covering the protests as well.
In Istanbul last night, some police joined protesters in their pro-Turkey/pro-republic chants ("Red, White, Red White" - the colors of the Turkish flag).
Meanwhile, 24 people have been arrested in Izmir for posting on social media. Most of the major news outlets are covering this in a negative way though, so its likely that they'll soon be released.
In other news, Erdogan showed up for a planned meeting with the PM of Morocco. The PM of Morocco refused to meet with him. In some of the regions where Erdogan won strong support during the election, people are holding signs apologizing for their votes, others are holding signs saying "You say you're holding back 50%, but we're already here." Thats a reference to Erdogan saying that he was holding back his supporters and if he gacve the word they would come out and 'end the protesters'. Dunno what kind of leader threatens half his population with the other half, but it appears that his comments may have actually eroded his base somewhat.
In Gezi Park, protesters are now celebrating with buffets of free food and exercise programs. The police have fallen back completely around Taksim Square/Gezi Park.
Even though the violence has calmed, the protests continue to grow in size, the protest in our local town was in the thousands of attendees and the police stood by and cheered.
Should be an interesting next few days.
ETA: Apparently Erdogan's next stop on his North Africa tour was Tunis. The Tunisians are also boycotting him and the groups invited to a state dinner with him have declined the invite.
:lulz:
That could get interesting.
Yep.. I have to say I am very impressed with the Turkish people. They have always struck me as nearly as passive as Americans, but this kind of response is something we'll probably never see in America in a similar situation. I doubt the Tea Party or the Republican voters would join with Democrats over police brutality, but here even old conservative grandmothers are taking to the streets, with scarves on their heads and signs in their hands.
Erdogan has made a major miscalculation.
TRT (Turkish Radio and Television) which is the government run broadcasting company just released a statement saying that they are being forced to run untrue news stories and not cover the protests. They also stated that they are "fed up" and can no longer support this kind of censorship.
If Erdogan can't hold on to TRT, he's really screwed the pooch.
Below is one of the reports TRT is now saying they were forced to report.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2013-06/05/c_132432958.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2013-06/05/c_132432958.htm)
That's a twist. I know journalism in Turkey tends to be a dangerous occupation, and the AKP in particular seem to focus heavily on trying to dominate the media narrative through whatever coercion and threats they can make.
A state backed institution breaking ranks also suggests they are getting support from elsewhere to allow them to do this. Kemalists in the Army, perhaps? State institutions are usually more, not less responsive to government pressure, which suggests countervailing pressure from elsewhere.
Quote from: Cain on June 05, 2013, 02:07:49 PM
That's a twist. I know journalism in Turkey tends to be a dangerous occupation, and the AKP in particular seem to focus heavily on trying to dominate the media narrative through whatever coercion and threats they can make.
A state backed institution breaking ranks also suggests they are getting support from elsewhere to allow them to do this. Kemalists in the Army, perhaps? State institutions are usually more, not less responsive to government pressure, which suggests countervailing pressure from elsewhere.
Well, most of the news agencies have been inundated with protesters and even guests on news shows have been making comments or wearing t-shirts with penguins. The penguin thing was because one of the news agencies were running stories on penguins while this was going down and has become a symbol of the failure of the media. So they've been trying to run some unrelated story with a guest and the guest basically makes fun of them and redirects the conversation.
At this point, I think they're afraid that they'll lose all credibility.
I mean, up to this point, news agencies have censored themselves about running anti-government stories, and they've dropped tv shows that are anti-government, but they've still been covering the news. This is really the first time they were ordered to ignore or report lies and I think it was a bridge too far for most of them. I was very surprised that they've come out like this, but it may be that they see this as a turning point and want to make sure they're on the winning side.
Then again, it could be that the government wants them to play it this way (if I were conspiracy minded). If no one trusts the media, then they won't trust them with the next load of bull either. If they use this as a "see we're on your side" kind of move, it might restore some credibility.
Given that many employees have left, many of their actors are in the streets and social media is exposing everything, maybe they felt real pressure from that... I just don't know.
There's also a lot of covert pressure on news organizations to toe the line, this interview gives a few examples
http://istanbulian.blogspot.com/2013/03/on-turkish-media-what-i-told-al-jazeera.html
QuoteBecause after coming to power, it seems that Erdogan systematized all his moves against media freedoms. So, his sentimental attitude against media has been transformed into a strategy for the pursuit of full control over not only in politics, but also over the whole society. It is now a norm that in developing countries, especially if the government has authoritarian tendencies, authorities tend to use all financial instruments of the state to redesign the society according to their interests. It's a common method to victimize one of the major players in a social sector to menace the others, giving them a message to behave. Such bullying doesn't support media freedoms, but undermine them. Now academics estimate that 70 percent of Turkey's media now backs the government, which is a picture that contradicts with democracy.
QuoteWith the current government, some prosecutors developed a nasty habit of arresting journalists as terror suspects. Nonetheless, we fail to see any material proof to link most of them to any violent acts. Most of the "evidence" against them was either their published news stories or book drafts. Let's not forget that dictators like Bashar Assad, Moammar Qaddafi and Husnu Mubarak were also referring to the democratic opposition as terrorists.
He does say that:
QuotePolyphony is in its cultural DNA. Neither Ottoman sultans nor military generals had been able to suppress it completely in the past. So, although it's clear that the current government pushing hard for more control over the public discourse, I believe that the polyphony will persist. In such a poliphony, it would be wrong to generalize what you call "editorial red lines." Each news outlet, even each editor, may have different editorial red lines. A major national newspaper won't have the same editorial policies with a local television in Black Sea region or an Armenian newspaper in Istanbul.
But nevertheless, there has been a strong trend towards "making an example" of one company or person, in order to intimidate the others.
I wonder if this is going to spur on the creation of the new security force (http://www.taraf.com.tr/haber/rejim-muhafizlari-geliyor.htm) that the Interior Ministry seems to want.
A gameshow has been cancelled. They give a clue and the contestant must guess the word. For the past few days the puzzles have been things like "democratic breathing apparatus" the answer was "gas mask".
:lulz:
So on the way to pick up my passport and visa today I talked with the taxi driver about his political views, I think he summed it up beautifully:
"With AKP, laik yok (there is no secular governmemt) . Islamist... problem"
"With CHP, economy problem"
"With MHP, terrorist problem"
"All together, BOK!" (Shit!)
"Ben yazik, Ataturk. Ben yazik, Turkeyie " (I pity/am sorry for Ataturk/Turkey)
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 05, 2013, 10:00:08 PM
A gameshow has been cancelled. They give a clue and the contestant must guess the word. For the past few days the puzzles have been things like "democratic breathing apparatus" the answer was "gas mask".
:lulz:
:lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2013, 04:47:44 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 05, 2013, 10:00:08 PM
A gameshow has been cancelled. They give a clue and the contestant must guess the word. For the past few days the puzzles have been things like "democratic breathing apparatus" the answer was "gas mask".
:lulz:
:lulz:
There were 70 puzzles including:
The person who is trying to actualize his/her ideas, thoughts: CAPULCU (LOOTER which is what the Prime Minister called the protesters)
The person who does not allow freedoms to people they rule: DESPOT
A person that concentrates all political power: DICTATOR
To voluntarily give up a position: RESIGN
The person Mustafa Kemal Ataturk said should "write his/her thoughts freely:" JOURNALIST
The thing that is referred to in Article 28th of the Turkish Constitution as "Free and Cannot be Censored":PRESS
The totality of qualities that one should abide by or avoid in occupations like media: ETHICS
:lulz:
Full list:http://technosociology.org/?p=1297 (http://technosociology.org/?p=1297)
It is very seldom that a large group of humans impresses me but this is outstanding! Faith in humanity, partially restored.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 06, 2013, 05:38:17 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 06, 2013, 04:47:44 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 05, 2013, 10:00:08 PM
A gameshow has been cancelled. They give a clue and the contestant must guess the word. For the past few days the puzzles have been things like "democratic breathing apparatus" the answer was "gas mask".
:lulz:
:lulz:
There were 70 puzzles including:
The person who is trying to actualize his/her ideas, thoughts: CAPULCU (LOOTER which is what the Prime Minister called the protesters)
The person who does not allow freedoms to people they rule: DESPOT
A person that concentrates all political power: DICTATOR
To voluntarily give up a position: RESIGN
The person Mustafa Kemal Ataturk said should "write his/her thoughts freely:" JOURNALIST
The thing that is referred to in Article 28th of the Turkish Constitution as "Free and Cannot be Censored":PRESS
The totality of qualities that one should abide by or avoid in occupations like media: ETHICS
:lulz:
Full list:http://technosociology.org/?p=1297 (http://technosociology.org/?p=1297)
Those question writers need some love.That list is great!
Personal favourites:
The ability to make decisions according to correct, meaningful interpretation: COMMON SENSE
An action that means the same thing as approval: SILENCE
The state of being able to resist power or injustice but being quiet: COWARDICE
Naked power: VIOLENCE
I strongly approve of this bold new direction for gameshows.
That could easily be a quite awesome crossword.
Update:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22809430
QuoteTurkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has called for protests across the country to end immediately.
At Istanbul airport he told crowds of supporters who were welcoming him home from a four-day North Africa tour that the protests bordered on illegality.
But as he spoke, thousands of anti-government protesters were also rallying in Istanbul's Taksim Square.
QuoteSpeaking in Tunis earlier, Mr Erdogan acknowledged that police had used "excessive force" against activists at the original sit-in. But he said that a small group was now manipulating what had started as an environmental protest.
"Among the protesters there are extremists, some of them implicated in terrorism," he told reporters.
Mr Erdogan also defended the urban development plan for Gezi Park.
Turkey's stock market dropped nearly 5% after his remarks.
I'm beginning to think "Terrorism" will be the punchline to a lot of 22-23 century jokes.
To be fair, the MHP and military are implicated in terrorist acts and coup plots, and are involved in the protests.
But it is like saying that all people in the UK who want the Afghan war to end are followers of Anjem Choudry.
Quote from: Cain on June 07, 2013, 04:15:58 PM
To be fair, the MHP and military are implicated in terrorist acts and coup plots, and are involved in the protests.
But it is like saying that all people in the UK who want the Afghan war to end are followers of Anjem Choudry.
That's very true. Recent evidence indicates that a previous nationalist/military coup was responsible for poisoning a previous PM. The MHP is generally supported by the Kurds and has 'some' connection with the PKK, which has been responsible for much of the 'terrorism' in the southeast. The socialist political side has been tainted by connection with the group that recently set of a bomb outside the American embassy.
However, MOST of the protesters seem to be Turks protesting actual issues... Erdogan is attempting to use a very broad brush to hide legitimate concerns by legitimate protesters.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22844461
QuoteTurkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is to meet the organisers of ongoing protests against his government on Wednesday, says his deputy.
Bulent Arinc said Mr Erdogan would "listen to their thoughts", but added that illegal protests would not be allowed.
This is going to be a productive meeting.
QuoteMore than 5,000 people have been injured and three people have died since the protests began.
Mr Arinc, speaking after a long meeting between Mr Erdogan and his cabinet, said the government would follow the guidance of the courts over Gezi Park. The protesters say plans to redevelop of the park are in violation of a court ruling.
But Mr Arinc also sounded a warning.
"Illegal demonstrations will not be allowed anymore in Turkey," he said.
"All necessary actions against illegal acts will have been completed, and we will see this all together, by the weekend.''
Is this guy just trying to make sure people remember to protest at the weekend?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/world/europe/disputed-square-in-istanbul-turkey.html?partner=MYWAY&ei=5065&_r=1&
Some HA HA
QuoteHuseyin Avni Mutlu, the governor of Istanbul, said in a Twitter message that the police would remove banners and posters. He said the activists who have been occupying Gezi Park for more than two weeks would not be affected.
"Gezi Park and Taksim will never be touched," he said. "This morning you are in the safe hands of your police brothers."
The police also tried to calm protesters. "Young people, please, stop hurling stones," a police officer announced over a loudspeaker. "We are not going to touch Gezi Park."
Yeah, we're totally not going to do what we have stated several times we will do regardless of protest.
Change you can believe in.
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/lawyers-istanbul-under-attack-protest-taksim
QuoteThings are not getting any better in Turkey. At 12.30PM today – the 15th day since the Gezi Park resistance exploded into a nationwide protest against the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) – lawyers congregated in Caglayan Courthouse, central Istanbul. Once inside the main hall, they issued a press statement pledging support to the social uprising and started to chant: "Everywhere is Taksim, everywhere is resistance!" It was the third time they'd congregated there in the last two weeks, but evidently the police were operating a "three strikes and you're out" policy. Special Forces officers arrived and flooded into Caglayan, in a pre-planned swoop.
After two lawyers were mercilessly picked off and carried outside, the 100 or so remaining lawyers tried to protest by holding a sit in. At this point, the police – aided by courthouse security, and on the command of the Attorney General – began forcefully dragging people away, in some cases striking the lawyers and kicking them along the ground. A spokesperson for the Istanbul Bar Association told VICE that the number of detained lawyers was 45. This afternoon, dozens of lawyers waited outside the police station, calling for their colleagues to be released. Tomorrow, the lawyers of Istanbul will again express their support for the protesters, and workers in the legal profession will hold marches in solidarity with the uprising in cities across Turkey.
Unusual incidence of Lawyers acting like humans. Once again, Turkey impresses me.
I'd imagine that if you're a copper, one of the last people you'd want to get heavy handed with would be a lawyer
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-06/24/turkish-protest-drone-shot-down
QuoteA civilian camera drone in Istanbul has been shot down by the police while it was monitoring the large Turkish anti-government protests.
Operated by a "drone journalist" using the Twitter handle @Jenk1907, the quadcopter was shot down a week ago over Gezi Park, the centre of the Turkish protest movement.
It had been capturing footage of the protests in the Turkish capital, and you can see some of its videos on Vimeo. According to Geek.com, the total value of the drone and camera was around $1650.
Jenk wrote under the final video it captured before being shot: "Tuesday afternoon on June 11th 2013, Police was violently attacking peaceful protestors. Police fired guns at one of our RC drone during the protests in Taksim square, Istanbul. Police aimed directly at the camera."
"Due to the impact on the camera (it did have a housing) the last video was not saved properly on the SD card. The camera and drone were both broken. Managed to keep the SD card. Here is the footage from that camera! This footage you are about to see is from the prior flights minutes before the incident."
While it's not unusual for protesters to monitor the police -- in the UK, the Forward Intelligence Teams who take photos and videos of activists are in turn photographed and recorded by " FITwatchers" -- this latest incident is probably indicative of what we all can expect from the future of social movements.
Seems important.
Edit to add - Civilian drones are rapidly getting to be quite affordable. Drone laws are going to be pain. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more restrictive countries to effectively ban civilians from using them outright.
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 13, 2013, 10:45:45 AM
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/lawyers-istanbul-under-attack-protest-taksim
QuoteThings are not getting any better in Turkey. At 12.30PM today – the 15th day since the Gezi Park resistance exploded into a nationwide protest against the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) – lawyers congregated in Caglayan Courthouse, central Istanbul. Once inside the main hall, they issued a press statement pledging support to the social uprising and started to chant: "Everywhere is Taksim, everywhere is resistance!" It was the third time they'd congregated there in the last two weeks, but evidently the police were operating a "three strikes and you're out" policy. Special Forces officers arrived and flooded into Caglayan, in a pre-planned swoop.
After two lawyers were mercilessly picked off and carried outside, the 100 or so remaining lawyers tried to protest by holding a sit in. At this point, the police – aided by courthouse security, and on the command of the Attorney General – began forcefully dragging people away, in some cases striking the lawyers and kicking them along the ground. A spokesperson for the Istanbul Bar Association told VICE that the number of detained lawyers was 45. This afternoon, dozens of lawyers waited outside the police station, calling for their colleagues to be released. Tomorrow, the lawyers of Istanbul will again express their support for the protesters, and workers in the legal profession will hold marches in solidarity with the uprising in cities across Turkey.
Unusual incidence of Lawyers acting like humans. Once again, Turkey impresses me.
You might be surprised by how many lawyers start out as activists.
I probably would be. I can't say I've met many. One thing this hopefully will do is create a whole bunch of activist lawyers. Or at least give more people access to them in an affordable way. Solidarity through the law, may be worth a shot.
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/talking-to-turkeys-kurds-at-occupy-gezi
QuoteThe fallout from the protests in Turkey isn't all bad. Unthinkable only three weeks ago, the demonstrations have begun to unite Turkey's Kurds – both those in Istanbul and travelling there from the east of the country – with a broad cross-section of Turkish society, all under a collective banner of anger against the government and its prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Years of clashing with riot police in the east of the country has taught the Kurds a couple of things about protest tactics, and their know-how came in handy the weekend before last when Gezi Park was forcibly evicted.
Sidenç is a Kurdish 20-something from Diyarbakir, the major city in the Kurdish part of Turkey. "Most English-speaking people call me Angel, so call me that," she said. And the name is fitting; she's a strikingly beautiful girl from the eastern heartlands of Turkey's Kurdish population who's flown in with her equally striking friends to support the anti-government occupation.
The day before Gezi Park was evicted, we were all crouched under a tarpaulin, smoking cigarettes. "We're here to support this revolution, despite 30 years of problems, pressures and no recognition for the Kurds," Angel told me. "We're here in solidarity with the Turks in Istanbul. Now they [predominantly young, middle class, first time protesters] know what Kurds have been experiencing all these years."
Hopefully the start of something lasting.