Looks like Turkey isn't the only place where people are pissed off and have had enough:
Quote from: BBCProtests against bus and underground fare rises in the Brazilian city of Sao Paulo have turned violent. Police fired rubber-coated bullets and tear gas, and detained more than 200 people. Police say they seized petrol bombs, knives and drugs. Violence has also been reported at protests in Rio de Janeiro. An estimated 5,000 protesters converged on the streets of Sao Paulo's central area on Thursday – the fourth day of the protests.
QuoteAs many as 200,000 people have marched through the streets of Brazil's biggest cities, as protests over rising public transport costs and the expense of staging the 2014 World Cup have spread.
The biggest demonstrations were in Rio de Janeiro, where 100,000 people joined a mainly peaceful march.
In the capital, Brasilia, people breached security at the National Congress building and scaled its roof.
The protests are the largest seen in Brazil for more than 20 years.
Sao Paulo is, of course, infamous for its wealth disparities:
(http://heckeranddecker.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/sao-paolo-slum-cmp.jpg)
And the rest of Brazil is not much better, thanks to an ingrained culture of political corruption (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensal%C3%A3o_scandal).
Greece, again (http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2013/06/greek-politics):
QuoteGreece was back in protest mode after Antonis Samaras, the centre-right prime minister, broke ranks with his coalition partners and high-handedly closed the state broadcaster on June 11th without first securing their agreement. As sacked employees of ERT (Hellenic Radio and Television) continued to occupy the Greek state broadcaster's headquarters, streaming live coverage of their plight over the internet, scores of former colleagues peacefully set up camp in a park outside the ERT building in Agia Paraskevi, a suburb of Athens.
Paramilitary police officers have shut down and seized control of the ERT headquarters, and the intent is to dissolve the agency entirely.
Naturally, this has nothing to do with saving money and everything to do with shutting down political criticism of the ruling coalition (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/17/1216716/-Chronicling-the-Greek-Government-s-Shutdown-of-ERT):
QuoteGiannis Stournaras, the unelected Greek finance minister whose ministry overtook control of ERT to oversee its dissolution, sent a written warning to radio and television stations, informing them that they would face consequences if they rebroadcast ERT's protest broadcast. Sto Kokkino 105.5 FM, a radio station in Athens owned by the left-wing Syriza political party, was threatened with closure after it rebroadcast portions of ERT's broadcast. More egregiously, 902 TV, a television station owned by the Communist Party of Greece (KKE) had its signal repeatedly taken off the air by DIGEA, a private company which operates the network of digital over-the-air transmitters used by Greece's national private television networks.
Malaysia (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2013/05/2013525163148127523.html):
QuoteTens of thousands of people held a rally near Malaysia's capital against alleged electoral fraud, further raising the political temperature after divisive recent polls. The latest in a series of protest rallies over the May 5 elections – which the opposition says were won fraudulently by the 56-year-old ruling coalition – saw a large crowd gather in an open field outside Kuala Lumpur Saturday night.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/SEA-01-290513.html
QuoteThe UMNO-dominated ruling coalition, which has held power consecutively since 1955, had not lost the popular vote since 1969. That result was followed by race riots between ethnic Chinese and Malays, paving the way for two years of emergency rule and an intra-party coup which installed Najib's father, Abdul Razak Hussein, as the country's second prime minister since independence from colonial rule.
Najib faces a different type of crisis as allegations of fraud and irregularities in campaigning, polling and vote counting have raised widespread questions about the legitimacy of the May 5 polls. Led by former deputy prime minister and finance minister Anwar Ibrahim, the opposition Pakatan Rakyat (PR) coalition has rejected outright the election result and organized massive rallies with protestors clad in black to mourn the "death of democracy".
So far, 10 rallies have been held across various states, attracting crowds ranging from 20,000 to 120,000. Black T-shirts emblazoned with "505" (the date of the polls) and "blackout", a reference to the mysterious power outages that occurred in the vote-tallying centers of a number of constituencies, have featured prominently at the multi-ethnic rallies.
Instead of permanently occupying strategic sites, protestors have returned home after the rallies. Nonetheless, the spreading protests are taking the initial shape of a so-called "color revolution", similar to the ones seen in places like Georgia, Kyrgyzstan and Ukraine. Images of mass protests also hark to the early phases of the Arab Spring demonstrations that overthrew authoritarian regimes in the Middle East and North Africa.
Opposition and civil society leaders have so far denied any intention of overthrowing Najib's government in a similar type of "Malaysian Spring." But some analysts believe UMNO's own anxieties about the protests may eventually turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy, particularly if current levels of repression are intensified.
Bulgaria (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/06/2013616191238106874.html):
QuotePolice said on Sunday that about 15,000 people took part in a rally outside the government building in the capital Sofia to demand a new election. Protesters also gathered outside parliament and in other Bulgarian cities. Prime Minister Plamen Oresharski's decision to appoint 32-year-old media mogul Delyan Peevski as chief of the powerful national security agency DANS and parliament's rapidity in rubber stamping the nomination angered many people.
I believe our very own Dalek has given us a good amount of background information on the political situation in Bulgaria.
And there are protests going on in Peru (over privatization of education), Yemen (over security force brutality), Thailand (counter-protestors against Thaskin's Red Shirt movement), Japan (nuclear power), Indonesia (fuel price rises), China (in favour of Edward Snowden and Xuchang county protests over coal mining), Canada (employment insurance) and Egypt (everything).
Holy shit. Glad I've got nothing planned today, the world's getting fun again.
That picture, Wow. How can it not fuck with you a lot when you're looking out onto a slum from your swimming pool balcony?
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 18, 2013, 09:57:14 AM
Holy shit. Glad I've got nothing planned today, the world's getting fun again.
That picture, Wow. How can it not fuck with you a lot when you're looking out onto a slum from your swimming pool balcony?
I know, it totally ruins the view.
Note, I'm not trying to make a one liner there, just show that it's probably not a concern for them. Will also see if I can read this a bit after the boss man goes home. (I'm leaving for work shortly).
Shit's going down, change is afoot
but I have a feeling it's going to get a lot worse (in the States, at least) before it gets better.
WOOO, I'm going to be In Kuala Lumpur on Saturday. I have nothing but the best timing.
Quote from: The Twid on June 18, 2013, 03:42:29 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 18, 2013, 09:57:14 AM
Holy shit. Glad I've got nothing planned today, the world's getting fun again.
That picture, Wow. How can it not fuck with you a lot when you're looking out onto a slum from your swimming pool balcony?
I know, it totally ruins the view.
:golfclap:
But I do agree with the original sentiment-that photo's stunning.
Damn, I miss a good protest, stomping around in righteous indignation with a large number of other righteously indignant people is outrageously fun.
Not sure it actually works to get anything done in this country.
(suddenly distracted by an ambitious little spider that seems to be intent on building a web in front of my computer monitor....oooh...)
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on June 18, 2013, 05:15:19 PM
Shit's going down, change is afoot
but I have a feeling it's going to get a lot worse (in the States, at least) before it gets better.
That's my take, also.
...Why do you think that is?
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on June 18, 2013, 05:15:19 PM
Shit's going down, change is afoot
but I have a feeling it's going to get a lot worse (in the States, at least) before it gets better.
You might be surprised. Industry is beginning to return to the USA, because that's where the fuel is, right now (shale), and if the American public starts looking at reasonably secure employment, they will put up with ANYTHING.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2013, 06:34:22 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on June 18, 2013, 05:15:19 PM
Shit's going down, change is afoot
but I have a feeling it's going to get a lot worse (in the States, at least) before it gets better.
You might be surprised. Industry is beginning to return to the USA, because that's where the fuel is, right now (shale), and if the American public starts looking at reasonably secure employment, they will put up with ANYTHING.
I dunno, economically the 60's were one of our best decades.
The 60s were very different ideologically though, in that there was an articulated program for alternative means of governance and a method of action behind them ie; Communism, the New Left, New Agers etc.
Now there is, as we are so often reminded, no alternative. And none is being articulated. Therefore, discontent is articulated exists entirely within the malfunction of the current arrangement, and as soon as the primary reasons for that discontent are removed (the lack of jobs), then the status quo, in America at least, will be much more secure.
I mean, realistically, jobs aside, there is no difference in the economic conditions of today, five years ago, ten years ago or twenty years ago. The discontent does not come from the operation of the system itself, but in how it affects one personally.
I spent a good chunk of Friday yelling at buildings. Not enough of us showed up. It's pretty fucking sad hearing passers-by excuse the government for shitting all over the bill of rights.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:14:14 PM
I spent a good chunk of Friday yelling at buildings. Not enough of us showed up. It's pretty fucking sad hearing passers-by excuse the government for shitting all over the bill of rights.
So what else can we do?
...Other than getting everyone you know to file FOIA requests, and I doubt that will do anything serious...
It's merely the one shoe I can think of to throw in the works.
...So, seriously, I see the shit, but I don't know how to stop it.
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on June 18, 2013, 09:21:39 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:14:14 PM
I spent a good chunk of Friday yelling at buildings. Not enough of us showed up. It's pretty fucking sad hearing passers-by excuse the government for shitting all over the bill of rights.
So what else can we do?
...Other than getting everyone you know to file FOIA requests, and I doubt that will do anything serious...
It's merely the one shoe I can think of to throw in the works.
...So, seriously, I see the shit, but I don't know how to stop it.
Call representatives and senators now, and in two weeks, and two weeks after that, and a month after that. They have short attention spans.
There are a lot of July 4th protesty things planned around the country, I would recommend finding or starting one locally for your stomping pleasure. No guarantee it will change anything, but you can't bitch if you don't try, right?
Quote from: The Twid on June 18, 2013, 03:44:36 PM
Note, I'm not trying to make a one liner there, just show that it's probably not a concern for them. Will also see if I can read this a bit after the boss man goes home. (I'm leaving for work shortly).
This. I've seen similar views from up-scale housing colonies in India. Worse, actually - Indian slums are fucking horrifying, and the horror is compounded by the fact that they are
everywhere. And yet, the middle and upper classes who live in those colonies can't, or won't, see it. They actually get angry when foreigners come to India and talk about all the poverty.
Quote from: deadfong on June 18, 2013, 09:28:45 PM
Quote from: The Twid on June 18, 2013, 03:44:36 PM
Note, I'm not trying to make a one liner there, just show that it's probably not a concern for them. Will also see if I can read this a bit after the boss man goes home. (I'm leaving for work shortly).
This. I've seen similar views from up-scale housing colonies in India. Worse, actually - Indian slums are fucking horrifying, and the horror is compounded by the fact that they are everywhere. And yet, the middle and upper classes who live in those colonies can't, or won't, see it. They actually get angry when foreigners come to India and talk about all the poverty.
The fuck? Is this kind of like the "I don't see race" thing, but "I don't see poverty"?
It may be that the wealth divide is not that drastic in the UK, and I've seen relatively little of non-western countries but I really doubt I could sleep with that as my view. From either direction. Fuck no.
Parts of London are like that. Shoreditch isn't far from Dalton, and Southwark has gated compounds next to some of the most violent and crime-ridden council estates in the UK.
Because they can lock it out and not deal with the consequences, they don't have to care about it. Somebody Else's Problem.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:28:22 PM
There are a lot of July 4th protesty things planned around the country, I would recommend finding or starting one locally for your stomping pleasure.
All the ones we have here are protesting the fact that a Black man became president, when you get right down to brass tacks.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2013, 09:37:17 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:28:22 PM
There are a lot of July 4th protesty things planned around the country, I would recommend finding or starting one locally for your stomping pleasure.
All the ones we have here are protesting the fact that a Black man became president, when you get right down to brass tacks.
Up here we're too busy arguing over whether recommending a dress code is too exclusionary and also did you know that getting the stink eye is a hate crime now?
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:41:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2013, 09:37:17 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:28:22 PM
There are a lot of July 4th protesty things planned around the country, I would recommend finding or starting one locally for your stomping pleasure.
All the ones we have here are protesting the fact that a Black man became president, when you get right down to brass tacks.
Up here we're too busy arguing over whether recommending a dress code is too exclusionary and also did you know that getting the stink eye is a hate crime now?
A dress code? You're SHITTING me.
And when *I* do the stink eye, it's a Goddamn CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. Tell those bastards to straighten up before I have to come out there.
Quote from: Cain on June 18, 2013, 09:36:03 PM
Parts of London are like that. Shoreditch isn't far from Dalton, and Southwark has gated compounds next to some of the most violent and crime-ridden council estates in the UK.
Because they can lock it out and not deal with the consequences, they don't have to care about it. Somebody Else's Problem.
I've not seen many of these kind of things though, they seem to be a newer choice for developers. Again, I don't get the idea as it's a total fucking illusion of safety. It's not like the gates rival Troy and there's a SWAT team in the basement.
Probably over-estimating humans again thinking they'd actually do something about the problem they see out of their window every day. At least, in any long term way the changes the system.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:41:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2013, 09:37:17 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:28:22 PM
There are a lot of July 4th protesty things planned around the country, I would recommend finding or starting one locally for your stomping pleasure.
All the ones we have here are protesting the fact that a Black man became president, when you get right down to brass tacks.
Up here we're too busy arguing over whether recommending a dress code is too exclusionary and also did you know that getting the stink eye is a hate crime now?
Please tell me this is something along the lines of "No tea party shit"
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 18, 2013, 09:45:55 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:41:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2013, 09:37:17 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:28:22 PM
There are a lot of July 4th protesty things planned around the country, I would recommend finding or starting one locally for your stomping pleasure.
All the ones we have here are protesting the fact that a Black man became president, when you get right down to brass tacks.
Up here we're too busy arguing over whether recommending a dress code is too exclusionary and also did you know that getting the stink eye is a hate crime now?
Please tell me this is something along the lines of "No tea party shit"
Or no hipsters. Or New England snobs not wanting to be seen with young people.
THIS IS NOT CANADA. NO. WE DO NOT NEED A TIE TO YELL AT PEOPLE.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2013, 09:42:58 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:41:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2013, 09:37:17 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:28:22 PM
There are a lot of July 4th protesty things planned around the country, I would recommend finding or starting one locally for your stomping pleasure.
All the ones we have here are protesting the fact that a Black man became president, when you get right down to brass tacks.
Up here we're too busy arguing over whether recommending a dress code is too exclusionary and also did you know that getting the stink eye is a hate crime now?
A dress code? You're SHITTING me.
And when *I* do the stink eye, it's a Goddamn CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. Tell those bastards to straighten up before I have to come out there.
True, but when mere mortals do it and someone literally calls it a hate crime :horrormirth:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2013, 09:48:30 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 18, 2013, 09:45:55 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:41:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2013, 09:37:17 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:28:22 PM
There are a lot of July 4th protesty things planned around the country, I would recommend finding or starting one locally for your stomping pleasure.
All the ones we have here are protesting the fact that a Black man became president, when you get right down to brass tacks.
Up here we're too busy arguing over whether recommending a dress code is too exclusionary and also did you know that getting the stink eye is a hate crime now?
Please tell me this is something along the lines of "No tea party shit"
Or no hipsters. Or New England snobs not wanting to be seen with young people.
THIS IS NOT CANADA. NO. WE DO NOT NEED A TIE TO YELL AT PEOPLE.
You misunderstand.
"No tea party shit" excludes likely tea-party supporters. And at a protest like this they're going to be fucking insufferable. Some of that random rhetoric had a chunk of truth, kind of, and you
will fucking hear about it.
All. Damn. Day.
But hey, on your head. Just trying to save your brain from melting here.
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 18, 2013, 09:52:31 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2013, 09:48:30 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 18, 2013, 09:45:55 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:41:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 18, 2013, 09:37:17 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 18, 2013, 09:28:22 PM
There are a lot of July 4th protesty things planned around the country, I would recommend finding or starting one locally for your stomping pleasure.
All the ones we have here are protesting the fact that a Black man became president, when you get right down to brass tacks.
Up here we're too busy arguing over whether recommending a dress code is too exclusionary and also did you know that getting the stink eye is a hate crime now?
Please tell me this is something along the lines of "No tea party shit"
Or no hipsters. Or New England snobs not wanting to be seen with young people.
THIS IS NOT CANADA. NO. WE DO NOT NEED A TIE TO YELL AT PEOPLE.
You misunderstand.
"No tea party shit" excludes likely tea-party supporters. And at a protest like this they're going to be fucking insufferable. Some of that random rhetoric had a chunk of truth, kind of, and you will fucking hear about it.
All. Damn. Day.
But hey, on your head. Just trying to save your brain from melting here.
But that's all I have left. :(
I'm taking my cue from Nigel on this; in these matters her advice is nearly of Redman quality.
I am going to go tell them what.
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 18, 2013, 09:34:03 PM
Quote from: deadfong on June 18, 2013, 09:28:45 PM
Quote from: The Twid on June 18, 2013, 03:44:36 PM
Note, I'm not trying to make a one liner there, just show that it's probably not a concern for them. Will also see if I can read this a bit after the boss man goes home. (I'm leaving for work shortly).
This. I've seen similar views from up-scale housing colonies in India. Worse, actually - Indian slums are fucking horrifying, and the horror is compounded by the fact that they are everywhere. And yet, the middle and upper classes who live in those colonies can't, or won't, see it. They actually get angry when foreigners come to India and talk about all the poverty.
The fuck? Is this kind of like the "I don't see race" thing, but "I don't see poverty"?
It may be that the wealth divide is not that drastic in the UK, and I've seen relatively little of non-western countries but I really doubt I could sleep with that as my view. From either direction. Fuck no.
I think much of the reason rampant poverty is so tolerated/ignored in India is the caste system. It's such a rigid hierarchy, and so huge, that there's almost always going to be someone below you and someone above you, and the culture really enforces the belief that that's how it should be. And caste is something you're born into - no matter what you do, even if you manage to make it big somehow, your caste never changes. It
cannot change. BIP, indeed.
Quote from: Cain on June 18, 2013, 09:07:56 PM
The 60s were very different ideologically though, in that there was an articulated program for alternative means of governance and a method of action behind them ie; Communism, the New Left, New Agers etc.
Now there is, as we are so often reminded, no alternative. And none is being articulated. Therefore, discontent is articulated exists entirely within the malfunction of the current arrangement, and as soon as the primary reasons for that discontent are removed (the lack of jobs), then the status quo, in America at least, will be much more secure.
I mean, realistically, jobs aside, there is no difference in the economic conditions of today, five years ago, ten years ago or twenty years ago. The discontent does not come from the operation of the system itself, but in how it affects one personally.
Do you think a new or alternative ideology has the strength to change that? Could such a thing occur? Or is No Alternative without and alternative?
Well, so far, fascism and Islam are presented as alternatives, but both have bad PR and one is culturally alien to the current global powers.
I suppose there's communism too, but the PR isn't great there either.
Quote from: deadfong on June 18, 2013, 10:05:08 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 18, 2013, 09:34:03 PM
Quote from: deadfong on June 18, 2013, 09:28:45 PM
Quote from: The Twid on June 18, 2013, 03:44:36 PM
Note, I'm not trying to make a one liner there, just show that it's probably not a concern for them. Will also see if I can read this a bit after the boss man goes home. (I'm leaving for work shortly).
This. I've seen similar views from up-scale housing colonies in India. Worse, actually - Indian slums are fucking horrifying, and the horror is compounded by the fact that they are everywhere. And yet, the middle and upper classes who live in those colonies can't, or won't, see it. They actually get angry when foreigners come to India and talk about all the poverty.
The fuck? Is this kind of like the "I don't see race" thing, but "I don't see poverty"?
It may be that the wealth divide is not that drastic in the UK, and I've seen relatively little of non-western countries but I really doubt I could sleep with that as my view. From either direction. Fuck no.
I think much of the reason rampant poverty is so tolerated/ignored in India is the caste system. It's such a rigid hierarchy, and so huge, that there's almost always going to be someone below you and someone above you, and the culture really enforces the belief that that's how it should be. And caste is something you're born into - no matter what you do, even if you manage to make it big somehow, your caste never changes. It cannot change. BIP, indeed.
As (little)as I understand it, changing one's station was considered to be bad Karma, so rather like a sin.
The protests in Rio:
(http://i.imgur.com/xlzchou.gif)
Quote from: Cain on June 19, 2013, 12:48:11 PM
The protests in Rio:
(http://i.imgur.com/xlzchou.gif)
Shit, that's incredible.
I live in Canada, and I hadn't heard about the EI protests. All the ones here seem to be over shale gas drilling and the oil pipeline. In New Brunswick, judging by the papers, there seems to be a general attitude that we're too poor for fancy government services like a social safety net, and all we need is to cut the fat and whore out our natural resources to bring in business. A while ago, there were some Idle No More protests, but those seem to have died out over the winter. It's really depressing. I get the impression that the spirit of the province has been utterly broken.
Quote from: Cain on June 19, 2013, 12:48:11 PM
The protests in Rio:
(http://i.imgur.com/xlzchou.gif)
WOW...
'Murica ?
(http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/a9dd7zo_700b_v1.jpg)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22992410
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/68268000/gif/_68268218_busburnrhs_624afp(2).gif)
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/8446_482305451846392_1842982889_n.jpg)
Rubber bullet. They shot it at the kid's face through the mask.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 21, 2013, 03:10:08 PM
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/8446_482305451846392_1842982889_n.jpg)
Rubber bullet. They shot it at the kid's face through the mask.
He's lucky to be alive.
Very lucky. I've seen a ton of injury reports including lost eyes. Fatalities are unconfirmed but it sounds like 10+ so far.
Massive corruption in Portland's public transportation system has recently been uncovered (I keep telling people that Portland city agencies are corrupt as hell, nobody listens) and what's happening here?
Marches against GMO.
Protests in Egypt:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23115821
QuoteHuge protests across Egypt calling for the resignation of President Mohammed Morsi have taken place through the night, with some outbreaks of violence.
In the capital, Cairo, tens of thousands of people massed in Tahrir Square and outside the presidential palace in the biggest demonstration there since the 2011 revolution.
At least one person was killed in clashes at Cairo's headquarters of Mr Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood movement.
Four others died in clashes elsewhere.
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/68469000/jpg/_68469794_018501074-1.jpg)
QuoteAs darkness fell, the opposition National Salvation Front (NSF) released what it called "Revolution Statement 1", calling on protesters across Egypt to "maintain their peaceful [rallies] in all the squares and streets and villages and hamlets of the country... until the last of this dictatorial regime falls".
The NSF is among liberal and secular opposition groups which have endorsed a petition organised by the grassroots movement Tamarod (Rebellion), which calls for a snap election. Opposition activists say more than 22 million people have signed it.
There was also some evidence of anti-American and anti-Israeli feeling among the protesters, with one flag portraying President Morsi inside a Star of David.
Not looking to settle in the near future I'd guess. Egyptians know that this shit can work if kept up long enough. The problem is now finding someone who can carry popular sentiment and get enough time to enact meaningful change. This guy didn't do himself many favours either on some occasions so the writing was on the wall either way, I just doubt he thought it was coming this quickly.
The BBC is, of course, only giving half the story here.
The NSF is an umbrella group of secular "liberals", many of whom are openly yearing for a secular military dictatorship. Their funding and support comes from media tycoons who made their fortunes under Murbarak and are his cronies...a fact that has caused some of the socialist groups and many of the youth groups to shy away from the NSF.
Said media tycoons are responsible for the identification of Morsi with US and Israeli interests - painting the Muslim Brotherhood as the handpicked successor of Mubarak (it wasn't) and Morsi himself as an Israeli sympathizer (he prefers Hamas).
No doubt there are still serious problems in Egypt, but the leading opposition are hardly the solution.
Quote from: BBC NewsAnti-government protesters in Egypt have stormed the national headquarters of President Mohammed Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in the capital, Cairo.
People ransacked the building in the Moqattam area and set parts on fire
Well, shit.
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2013, 03:27:50 PM
Quote from: BBC NewsAnti-government protesters in Egypt have stormed the national headquarters of President Mohammed Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in the capital, Cairo.
People ransacked the building in the Moqattam area and set parts on fire
Well, shit.
...FUN!
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2013, 03:27:50 PM
Quote from: BBC NewsAnti-government protesters in Egypt have stormed the national headquarters of President Mohammed Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in the capital, Cairo.
People ransacked the building in the Moqattam area and set parts on fire
Well, shit.
I am beginning to develop a serious soft spot for Egyptians.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 01, 2013, 05:14:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2013, 03:27:50 PM
Quote from: BBC NewsAnti-government protesters in Egypt have stormed the national headquarters of President Mohammed Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in the capital, Cairo.
People ransacked the building in the Moqattam area and set parts on fire
Well, shit.
I am beginning to develop a serious soft spot for Egyptians.
Who knows, if this goes on long enough something good might finally catch on. I bet they'll let the next guy get away with less shit too.
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 01, 2013, 06:53:38 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 01, 2013, 05:14:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2013, 03:27:50 PM
Quote from: BBC NewsAnti-government protesters in Egypt have stormed the national headquarters of President Mohammed Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in the capital, Cairo.
People ransacked the building in the Moqattam area and set parts on fire
Well, shit.
I am beginning to develop a serious soft spot for Egyptians.
Who knows, if this goes on long enough something good might finally catch on. I bet they'll let the next guy get away with less shit too.
There's a downside to that. Eventually, you have governments collapsing because they didn't fix a half-century of fuckups in a week.
I doubt it, Junk. The next guy, if the protestors get their way, will be a friendly face for military rule. That's the explicit game plan here, turning Egypt into Turkey.
Morsi is hardly fantastic, but this is essentially an Egyptian version of the Tea Party - billionaire, plutocrat backers funding a "populist" revolt in order to protect their own wealth and privileges. That Morsi's government has also been investigating Murbarak era corruption and violence, and that all these plutocrats made their money by sucking up to Mubarak is, of course, entirely a coincidence and certainly doesn't suggest they have something to hide.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 01, 2013, 07:00:13 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 01, 2013, 06:53:38 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 01, 2013, 05:14:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2013, 03:27:50 PM
Quote from: BBC NewsAnti-government protesters in Egypt have stormed the national headquarters of President Mohammed Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in the capital, Cairo.
People ransacked the building in the Moqattam area and set parts on fire
Well, shit.
I am beginning to develop a serious soft spot for Egyptians.
Who knows, if this goes on long enough something good might finally catch on. I bet they'll let the next guy get away with less shit too.
There's a downside to that. Eventually, you have governments collapsing because they didn't fix a half-century of fuckups in a week.
You say downside, but that just sounds like wonderful to watch. In this age of advancing instant media, there is no longer time for regimes to rise and fall. Takeover-enact change-deposed within a working day is the future of the media. Rulers will no longer have names, just a record of how long they lasted.
Sure, there's horror galore, but look at the
ratings.
Cain, sounds like that "moderate cresecent" idea kicking in again here. Could outside influences be waiting for the right kind of government to come along before giving it "support" to help "stabilize the future of Egypt"? I never really saw big international support for Morsi, so I'd guess other Nations reactions to potential leaders could be useful at looking at the future here.
Seems related:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23142248
QuoteSixty-eight Islamists in the United Arab Emirates have been jailed over allegations of a plot to overthrow the government.
Many of those convicted were imprisoned for at least seven years. Another 26, including 13 women, were acquitted.
The 94 defendants were accused of trying to seize power in the Emirates.
The verdict ended a trial criticised by human rights groups, which said the judge failed to investigate "credible" allegations of torture of defendants.
The defendants included human rights lawyers, university lecturers and students.
A majority of those convicted were given jail sentences between seven and 10 years, reports said.
Eight defendants no longer in the country were sentenced to 15 years.
QuoteThe trial which began in March has been strongly criticised by global human rights advocates, who have said the proceedings were in "flagrant disregard of fair trial guarantees".
Most of the defendants were arrested in July and August 2012. Their families were denied visitation rights during pre-trial detention.
Human rights groups also alleged that some of the inmates were tortured during their detention.
But the UAE attorney general has rejected the claims, saying the prisoners were being "dealt with according to the law".
The 68 who were convicted have no right of appeal.
The UAE like other Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) countries has cracked down hard on dissidents and social media activists.
Two more were arrested on Monday night for tweeting in support of the 94, including the brother of a prominent detainee, a local activist told the BBC. He said they were being held in an unknown location.
The activist described the detainees as "singing Islamic songs and chanting God is great" when the verdicts were announced in court.
Possibly worth watching?
Whoopsie.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/03/19261466-supporters-of-egyptian-president-say-military-coup-is-underway?lite
To be honest, I don't quite mind this. Then again, I've only been hearing the Western World side of the story.
I have no idea what to think about Egypt at this point. I hope they get whatever they want, and that whatever it is isn't too :horrormirth:
Annnnnnnnnd...
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/03/19261466-egyptian-military-says-it-has-ousted-morsi-crowds-celebrate-in-cairo?lite
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2013, 07:00:22 PM
I doubt it, Junk. The next guy, if the protestors get their way, will be a friendly face for military rule. That's the explicit game plan here, turning Egypt into Turkey.
Horrifically, many Turks would be very happy with military rule compared to the current situation. Then again, the current government is kinda horrific and the alternate parties are kinda horrific.
This seems to be a running theme in most of the countries in the region, do you want the crazy guy and half the country disagree with, the crazy guy that the other half of the country disagrees with, a military coup or some other crazy guy that everyone's kinda wary about.
Actually, that seems to fit with the current Israeli political potions too... maybe its the weather around here, or the water.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 03, 2013, 10:02:14 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2013, 07:00:22 PM
I doubt it, Junk. The next guy, if the protestors get their way, will be a friendly face for military rule. That's the explicit game plan here, turning Egypt into Turkey.
Horrifically, many Turks would be very happy with military rule compared to the current situation. Then again, the current government is kinda horrific and the alternate parties are kinda horrific.
This seems to be a running theme in most of the countries in the region, do you want the crazy guy and half the country disagree with, the crazy guy that the other half of the country disagrees with, a military coup or some other crazy guy that everyone's kinda wary about.
Actually, that seems to fit with the current Israeli political potions too... maybe its the weather around here, or the water.
In the long run, or even in the medium run, military rule is the second-worst form of government, as you are taking people who live in a microcosm that works, and expecting them to make that system work in general; they are not trained to rule civilians, they are trained to maintain discipline among soldiers.
But it always LOOKS appealing, when the civilian rulers are incompetent. See: Argentina.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 04, 2013, 03:25:24 AM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 03, 2013, 10:02:14 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 01, 2013, 07:00:22 PM
I doubt it, Junk. The next guy, if the protestors get their way, will be a friendly face for military rule. That's the explicit game plan here, turning Egypt into Turkey.
Horrifically, many Turks would be very happy with military rule compared to the current situation. Then again, the current government is kinda horrific and the alternate parties are kinda horrific.
This seems to be a running theme in most of the countries in the region, do you want the crazy guy and half the country disagree with, the crazy guy that the other half of the country disagrees with, a military coup or some other crazy guy that everyone's kinda wary about.
Actually, that seems to fit with the current Israeli political potions too... maybe its the weather around here, or the water.
In the long run, or even in the medium run, military rule is the second-worst form of government, as you are taking people who live in a microcosm that works, and expecting them to make that system work in general; they are not trained to rule civilians, they are trained to maintain discipline among soldiers.
But it always LOOKS appealing, when the civilian rulers are incompetent. See: Argentina.
Absolutely.
In Turkey, it really boils down to which side of the conservative religious/secular fight you are on. If you're secular, the history of military coup/rule is appealing because the military is very secular and was designed at the beginning of the republic to act as a control, in case the government started going the wrong way. In the past, the military has overthrown the government, taken control, held elections and handed power back to the newly elected government. The real downside is if you were on the conservative/religious/dissenting minority (like the kurds) side... then the military control was not at all good for you. Additionally, as was discussed on PD before, there has been all sorts of deep government//military connections going on under the covers 'that wasn't supposed to happen'.
When I first started talking to people here about the military and how they had overthrown the government multiple times in the past, I was shocked. My western brain though "OMGZ THAT IS A VERY BAD THING". However, here in the heart of secular Turkey, the military is the hero, the keepers of Ataturk's dream and cause. If you travel into the heart of Anatolia, or into the Kurdish regions, you get a very different version. Therein lies the absurdity of the Turkish system.
This was the Ottoman empire, the land of Suleiman the Great. The world head of Islam. The guys that smacked the shit (literally) out of European Christian armies...
Then they were the Ottoman Empire, slowly crumbling with a military that was woefully behind the times... So the Sultan cut a deal with the Germans and brought them in to help revive their military. The Germans cut a sly deal for mutual defense and then started WWI dragging the Ottomans into it with them. By the end, the Ottomans had lost the war, lost their morale, lost their faith in a great sense... and the European nations began to split the empire up among themselves. Not to mention a military coup in the middle of it all where the Sultan fell under the control of his own military.
Along comes Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, he pulls together an army, defies the Sultan and the death sentence waiting for him in Istanbul... He kicks the ass of pretty much every occupying army and topples the Ottoman Empire. Then, based off of the Western model, he implements a completely secular government, creates the Liek law (separation of Church and State), makes a Republic and starts dragging Turkey into the modern world (he dumps the arabic alphabet and replaces it with the western, he dumps centuries of focus on the Arab/Muslim East and points everyone to the West)... and he builds his army to not only defend the borders, but defend the republic.
He built the military coup concept into the fabric of the Republic. Jefferson said "The tree of liberty must be watered with blood". Ataturk built the fucking sprinkler system. Ataturk didn't build a Republic for 'the majority', he built a Republic based on his vision of a secular state in a nation where the majority are religious and he built the military to make sure it stayed that way.
Is military rule worse than democratically elected rule? Here, it depends on who you ask and what they believe.
Its a really cool story and a really fucked up kind of system...
Then again, you don't have elected officials trying to tell people they should pray to god for forgiveness of the nation (which is also pretty fucked up for the American secular government).
:lulz: :horrormirth: :lulz:
The US government claiming to be secular always struck me as the most hilarious fiction. If you believe in the mumbo jumbo then you defer to god. Who tells you what god thinks? That's right - the clergy. So you have one secular government, under god with liberty and justice for everyone the bible deems not to be a sinner :lulz:
Classic Luttwak. Who said that The Art of Coup D'etat was no longer a relevant book?
Watching the US scrabble around to justify the coup as being not a coup is hilarious. So the Army appointed some lawyer to front for their thuggish toppling of the Morsi regime, who gives a fuck? The operative words here are "military" and "topple". But I suppose giving billions to a bunch of junta-addicted colonels might tarnish the US's reputation in the region or something (hah). I suppose it was just coincidence the head of the Egyptian military was in DC as his troops took power.
I wonder what Morsi was thinking? He had to know that the Muslim Brotherhood is always the cat's paw, not the designated successor. Since the 1950s, MI6 and the CIA have been regularly shipping bags of money to Muslim Brotherhood groups. And yet, exactly how many Muslim Brotherhood governments have there been, in all of history? Oh yeah, Morsi's.
That the official reason and the justification is the economic crisis in Egypt just makes this an even worse choice than a normal military coup is. The military is appointing a civilian, technocratic government, almost certainly made up of plutocratic elements from Mubarak's days, or being backed by said plutocrats. Technocrats backed by plutocrats tend to settle on austerity as the solution to all political ills. So there will be even more pissed off, jobless Egyptians, and a significant number of Islamists who feel their birthright was robbed by secularists in the military and their allies in the West.
Fun times, and all that.
Ok, that's more like it. I was only hearing the "this is a good thing" side of it for a while, and I knew there must have been more. Didn't know about the head of the military was in DC at the time. Odd "coincidence", that.
It was probably a courtesy call. Still, my guess is that the White House and Pentagon did not exactly object to this course of action, due to it actually happening while he was present.
Also, think about what is happening in Turkey right now. Religious nutter with significant anti-Israeli and sometimes anti-American slant, coming under fire from his own military and secualarists, some genuine liberals, some nationalistic Kemalist nutbags, agitating for a change in regime.
Sound familiar?
US and British policy in the Middle East revolves around four planks:
1) Israel - main strategic ally in,
2) Preventing pan-Arab or Pan-Islamic unity, as to
3) Keep the oil flowing from as many multiple sources as possible, and
4) Keep the Saudis sweet and investing oil money in the UK and USA.
Islamists threaten unity under a Caliphate, and also tend to threaten oil profits with their anti-Western stances. However, Islamists are useful against Shiite Muslims and secular nationalists, where the latter also threaten oil profits (see ya Mossedegh, Nasser). So Islamists get a seat at the planning table when their interests coincide with US and British ones, even if those groups are violently opposed to the US or UK in general terms. Only the planning table, however. Once the government has fallen, they have served their purpose and it's time to put a more reliable puppet in power...a conservative with royal blood was the preferred method historically, nowadays a "secular, modernising reformer" is the preferred option.
Quotenowadays a "secular, modernising reformer" is the preferred option
Ahem: (Random BBC article, but illustrates the framing of the guy)
QuoteOn Thursday the head of Egypt's constitutional court, Adly Mahmud Mansour, was sworn in as interim head of state, and he promised to hold elections soon.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23202096
This leads me to increasingly suspect anyone described in these terms as a puppet with little actual power beyond their brand.
QuoteHaving served as deputy head of the Constitutional Court since 1992, Mr Mansour was appointed as its president in May 2013. He only took up his post on 1 July.
So he was the deputy head of the Rubber Stamp Committee for Constitutional Rulings when Murbarak was President, in other words.
Told ya. This is a counter-revolution. The Muslim Brotherhood did what they were needed to do, and now the military is mopping up the resistance:
QuoteEgyptian troops have opened fire on protesters marching in support of ousted President Mohammed Morsi, killing three and wounding dozens.
And Egyptian soldiers are now using live ammunition on protestors.
And there is going to be another election, all legitimate like. Morsi may even take part, if he can be found and retrieved from whatever hole he is currently in "protective custody" for.
Hooray, democracy etc.
Quote from: Cain on July 05, 2013, 08:47:32 PM
QuoteHaving served as deputy head of the Constitutional Court since 1992, Mr Mansour was appointed as its president in May 2013. He only took up his post on 1 July.
So he was the deputy head of the Rubber Stamp Committee for Constitutional Rulings when Murbarak was President, in other words.
Told ya. This is a counter-revolution. The Muslim Brotherhood did what they were needed to do, and now the military is mopping up the resistance:
QuoteEgyptian troops have opened fire on protesters marching in support of ousted President Mohammed Morsi, killing three and wounding dozens.
So, to put this in Detroit football terms, this is like finally replacing Matt Millen as Lions GM with Martin Mayew (Matt Millen's former vice GM). Only with far more serious consequences for the people than shitty draft picks.
Oh, joy!
"But hey, at least it's Mooslim-on-Mooslim violence, right?"
\
:redneck2:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23434809
QuoteEgypt's army chief has called for demonstrations on Friday to give the military a mandate to confront "violence and potential terrorism".
Abdel Fattah al-Sisi said he was not calling for public unrest and wanted national reconciliation.
Supporters of Mohammed Morsi have been protesting against the army intervention which removed him as president of Egypt on 3 July.
But the Muslim Brotherhood dismissed Gen Sisi's call as a "threat".
Essam El-Erian, deputy chairman of the Brotherhood's political wing, the Freedom and Justice Party (FJP), said: "Your threat will not stop the millions from continuing to gather."
He called Gen Sisi "a coup leader who kills women, children and those at prayer".
Wouldn't it be great if there was a system which allowed for public support to be expressed in a manner which would confer legitimacy on political actions by showing how they are preferred by the majority. Maybe by voting for political parties with clearly expressed political views which people could freely select from. We could call such a system "democracy".
Then the Egyptian military wouldn't have to call for protests to confer legitimacy on their actions.
The Egyptian military are continuing their efforts to bring democracy and freedom to Egypt, from the barrel of a gun:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23474645
QuoteMore than 100 people are reported to have been killed in Cairo at a protest held by supporters of ousted Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi.
Running battles are taking place around the Rabaa al-Adawiya mosque and there is blood on the streets, says the BBC's Quentin Sommerville at the scene.
A doctor at a field hospital said more than 1,000 had been injured.
Early on Saturday, Interior Minister Mohammed Ibrahim vowed to end the sit-in at the mosque.
He said local residents had complained about the encampment and that the protest would be "brought to an end soon and in a legal manner".
Incidentally, Morsi is still in a military prison somewhere.
Greg Djerejian, has some excellent analysis (http://www.belgraviadispatch.com/2013/07/a_coup_that_will_resonate_far.html):
QuoteWhy should we care? These going-ons are taking place in far-away Arab lands, and summer entertainment might be more easily had by the pitiable Carlos Danger's vying for ink for sexting near-minors and such, like incredibly needy cretins. Well, for one, Egypt represents the beating epicenter of the entire Arab world and is the paramount, central actor in the denouement of the Arab Spring, such as it is. The enthusiasm by which Riyadh turned on the dollar spigot to Sisi's gang should tell us all we need to know regarding the reactive forces at play. As blood spills, trumped up charges that are bogus in the extreme are lobbed at Morsi, and the crack-down intensifies in general, is the risk of mass Islamic disenchantment during the most high profile episode of the Arab uprisings not manifestly clear?
Of course, this is a mug's game, and whatever the U.S. did (or didn't) each side will be dissatisfied. But the singular implications of the Egyptian uprising all but demanded a more robust American reaction defending the integrity of the ballot-box, even if just pretending to muster some spine, rather than speaking of a naked coup as constituting some enlightened "second chance" for the revolution. How is an effective putsch to accomplish that, no matter how Westernized the technocrats that will preen about the instrumentalities of government power looking to unlock IMF funds, while Sisi and the Army control the real levers?
Foggy Bottom, the Pentagon and the White House will delude themselves that we are retaining 'leverage' over Sisi and will control outcomes, but our supine compliance to date has spoken volumes. The Generals get it, and they are getting on with it. The Islamists, if Egypt doesn't descend into full-bore civil war, will remember, as they go into 'hiding'. Another chapter in Islamist rejection is being written, this time vividly with respect to participatory democracy given their victory was stolen, and while we were never meant to be central players, and indeed must be cautious, there are nonetheless times where fecklessness of this magnitude will backfire to our detriment.
Exactly right. While I have my doubts about the depth of sincerity in regards to the Muslim Brotherhood's adoption of democracy, and how exactly their conception of it aligns with Western norms (percieved and actual), it is nevertheless the case that they were willing to
play along. Their suspect devotion was nevertheless voiced, and they played more or less according to the rules.
And then they were overthrown. Tel Aviv and Riyadh were complicit in the coup, to some degree, and while I don't think this was the outcome Washington was angling for, that these two are allies of Washington, and that Washington meekly stood aside and let the coup occur, and would not even bring themselves to call it a coup, will be remembered.
The Muslim Brotherhood won't make that mistake again. The next time they come to power, expect purges. Lots of them.
Helluva good point, Cain. The long game sort of insists that a democratic election should be treated as sacrosanct, inasmuch that if the people voted, they can vote AGAIN to rid themselves of it. Shifting the norm away from violence towards politics is ultimately a healthier choice.
QuoteThe Muslim Brotherhood won't make that mistake again. The next time they come to power, expect purges. Lots of them.
Just thinking about this point, could that be part of the strategy? If/when/where the next place they get some kind of power and they act like that then it's pretty much the perfect PR to go in guns blazing.
Chances of a Muslim Brotherhood influenced government in Syria? Not 0 by my guesses. I'd guess it to be almost inevitable at some point in a few African countries.
Cain, is there any country in Africa that has a large Chinese economic presence that could/does have a government that is/shares sympathies with the MB? If so that sounds like the perfect place for disruption and a proxy war.
Maybe Sudan. But I'm not sure exactly how large the Chinese presence is there, and it's not so much the MB as it is Islamists generally.
Anyway, I know people are concerned about the spiralling violence and killings in Egypt. Well, I am here to put you at ease.
QuoteIn the wake of Wednesday's violence, the interior ministry says police have been authorised to use live ammunition "within a legal framework".
It's worth noting, underreported as it is in the press, that while the Egyptian government is killing MB members, the MB is killing Coptic Christians. Not quite at the same level as is being inflicted on them, but then the Brotherhood doesn't exactly have a government's resources.
I'm sure this will help matters
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/18/egypt-clashes-muslim-brotherhood-ban
QuoteEgypt is braced for more demonstrations on Sunday, after the military-backed government signalled plans to outlaw the Muslim Brotherhood, while troops cleared a Cairo mosque of Brotherhood supporters who were protesting against the removal of President Mohamed Morsi last month.
Because nothing says "democracy" quite like outlawing the political party of the previous President.
There's a lot of talk about civil war...which is very possible, for a given definition of civil war. Usually, a civil war requires both sides be armed, not one side slaughtering the other. So far, the Muslim Brotherhood have only seemed inclined to use violence against Coptic Christians...who tend to not be heavily armed, unlike the Egyptian Army, and so vulnerable to the sophisticated military weaponry known as "fire" and "beatings with sticks".
Can we call it a coup yet?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/egyptian-government-admits-killing-islamists-in-custody/article13835825/
QuoteThe Egyptian government acknowledged that its security forces killed 36 Islamists in its custody Sunday, as the military leaders and the country's Islamists vowed to keep up their fight over Egypt's future.
The news of the deaths came on a day in which there appeared to be a pause in the street battles that have claimed more than 1,000 lives in recent days, most of them Islamists and their supporters gunned down by security forces. The Islamists took measures Sunday to avoid confrontations, including canceling several protests over the ouster of a democratically elected Islamist-led government.
While confirming the killings of the detainees Sunday, the Ministry of the Interior said the deaths were the consequence of an escape attempt by Islamist prisoners. But officials of the main Islamist movement, the Muslim Brotherhood, described the deaths as "assassinations," and said the victims, which it said numbered 52, had been shot and tear-gassed through the windows of the locked prison van.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/egypt-militants-execute-at-least-25-policemen-in-northern-sinai-as-exdictator-mubarak-set-to-be-freed-8773852.html
QuoteBloody violence has continued today as Egyptian security officials say suspected militants have ambushed two police minibuses in northern Sinai, firing rocket-propelled grenades at the vehicles.
The attack is believed to have been carried out as the two vehicles were driving through a village near the border town of Rafah in the volatile Sinai Peninsula, located in the strategic region bordering the Gaza Strip and Israel.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/hosni-mubarak-to-be-freed-as-army-tightens-its--grip-on-egypt-8775237.html
Quote
Hosni Mubarak, the man whose 30-year tyranny as Egypt's leader triggered a revolt which shook the Middle East, will be freed from prison by the end of the week, his lawyer claimed.
Many Egyptians, plagued by violence and insecurity, will welcome the return of the former President; others will greet his release with indifference. For some, the development will mark the most obvious confirmation yet that the military establishment still reigns supreme and the gains of the Egyptian revolution are being lost.
Well fuck. That's a big pile of "not going to end well".
I don't think that was going to end well in any case. If the Muslim Brotherhood had retained control, it would have gone bad. If the army had pulled off a coup it would have gone bad. If every Egyptian had just told the whole government to pound sand and began a whole new culture based on selling ancient artifacts on a Pawn Stars-like TV show, it would have gone bad.
Seems to be the case for the whole region. No matter which group controls Egypt, its bad. No matter which group controls Turkey, its bad. No matter which group controls Iraq, its bad. No matter which group controls Israel, its bad. No matter which group controls ...
Sometimes I hope its just growing pains we're seeing.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 20, 2013, 10:41:01 AM
I don't think that was going to end well in any case. If the Muslim Brotherhood had retained control, it would have gone bad. If the army had pulled off a coup it would have gone bad. If every Egyptian had just told the whole government to pound sand and began a whole new culture based on selling ancient artifacts on a Pawn Stars-like TV show, it would have gone bad.
Seems to be the case for the whole region. No matter which group controls Egypt, its bad. No matter which group controls Turkey, its bad. No matter which group controls Iraq, its bad. No matter which group controls Israel, its bad. No matter which group controls ...
Sometimes I hope its just growing pains we're seeing.
Look for the common factor in such cases.
It may be the climate. It may be the soil type. It may be a cultural thing. It may be that there is always a group that controls.
There is something fundamentally flawed with the 'SUBMIT or i beat you' approach to making the world a better place.
Monkey see and monkey do and all that.
Quote from: :regret: on August 20, 2013, 12:15:45 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 20, 2013, 10:41:01 AM
I don't think that was going to end well in any case. If the Muslim Brotherhood had retained control, it would have gone bad. If the army had pulled off a coup it would have gone bad. If every Egyptian had just told the whole government to pound sand and began a whole new culture based on selling ancient artifacts on a Pawn Stars-like TV show, it would have gone bad.
Seems to be the case for the whole region. No matter which group controls Egypt, its bad. No matter which group controls Turkey, its bad. No matter which group controls Iraq, its bad. No matter which group controls Israel, its bad. No matter which group controls ...
Sometimes I hope its just growing pains we're seeing.
Look for the common factor in such cases.
It may be the climate. It may be the soil type. It may be a cultural thing. It may be that there is always a group that controls.
There is something fundamentally flawed with the 'SUBMIT or i beat you' approach to making the world a better place.
Monkey see and monkey do and all that.
This! Humans have a real bee in their bonnets about controlling things. Short-term, control is possible but it requires massive effort and eventually it becomes impossible to maintain. Aneristic illlusion - perfectly fucking illustrated. Still, there's massive profits to be made selling control maintenance equipment to all the control freak factions, fighting for their own little slice of righteous domination, so it aint all bad.
I wonder if the problem could be that so many of them think there is an invisible man telling them what to do. Don't get me wrong, that's a fault that America is no stranger to, but at least our invisible man stopped ordering decapitations a (relatively short) while ago. Apparently "kill the unbelievers" isn't just satire to these guys.
I used to think that way, Vex, given that a large percentage of conflict past and present can be traced either directly or indirectly to fairytale dumbfuckery but I think the honest truth is, if everyone suddenly woke up and realised they were living in cloud cuckoo land, they'd just find another reason (fictional or otherwise) to kill each other.
Murdering your fellow primate is a basic human drive, same as eating and fucking. In fact it's probably closely related to both of those impulses.
I'm just saying, I have never seen a bunch of atheists wanting to murder people for any reason, not just belief/lack of belief reasons. Well, okay, there are the assholes on Facebook, but they don't count because none of them are old enough to buy guns.
I don't think you could ever fix religious violence by depriving people of religion, but there's something that happens to people when they stop believing in God that causes them to understand the pettiness of a lot of things.
Ground rules: You may not refer to Stalin or Mao in whatever discussion comes after this post.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 20, 2013, 01:56:01 PM
I used to think that way, Vex, given that a large percentage of conflict past and present can be traced either directly or indirectly to fairytale dumbfuckery but I think the honest truth is, if everyone suddenly woke up and realised they were living in cloud cuckoo land, they'd just find another reason (fictional or otherwise) to kill each other.
Murdering your fellow primate is a basic human drive, same as eating and fucking. In fact it's probably closely related to both of those impulses.
Oh great, now i have this new image of a stereotypical human: A man raping the corpse of his latest victim while eating the brains that are spilling out of the bashed-in skull. Weeping while doing so, thinking 'Why does no one love me?'
Thanks for that horrifying image Pent. I can't stop seeing it now.
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 02:05:29 PM
I'm just saying, I have never seen a bunch of atheists wanting to murder people for any reason, not just belief/lack of belief reasons. Well, okay, there are the assholes on Facebook, but they don't count because none of them are old enough to buy guns.
I don't think you could ever fix religious violence by depriving people of religion, but there's something that happens to people when they stop believing in God that causes them to understand the pettiness of a lot of things.
Ground rules: You may not refer to Stalin or Mao in whatever discussion comes after this post.
Maybe it is not the lack of religion but
the willingness to change their worldview when confronted with new information that correlates with not killing people?
Easily tested, put some atheists together and let them breed for a few generations.
The new generation should have the same homicidal tendencies as the religious ones.
Quote from: :regret: on August 20, 2013, 02:12:07 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 20, 2013, 01:56:01 PM
I used to think that way, Vex, given that a large percentage of conflict past and present can be traced either directly or indirectly to fairytale dumbfuckery but I think the honest truth is, if everyone suddenly woke up and realised they were living in cloud cuckoo land, they'd just find another reason (fictional or otherwise) to kill each other.
Murdering your fellow primate is a basic human drive, same as eating and fucking. In fact it's probably closely related to both of those impulses.
Oh great, now i have this new image of a stereotypical human: A man raping the corpse of his latest victim while eating the brains that are spilling out of the bashed-in skull. Weeping while doing so, thinking 'Why does no one love me?'
Thanks for that horrifying image Pent. I can't stop seeing it now.
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 02:05:29 PM
I'm just saying, I have never seen a bunch of atheists wanting to murder people for any reason, not just belief/lack of belief reasons. Well, okay, there are the assholes on Facebook, but they don't count because none of them are old enough to buy guns.
I don't think you could ever fix religious violence by depriving people of religion, but there's something that happens to people when they stop believing in God that causes them to understand the pettiness of a lot of things.
Ground rules: You may not refer to Stalin or Mao in whatever discussion comes after this post.
Maybe it is not the lack of religion but the willingness to change their worldview when confronted with new information that correlates with not killing people?
Easily tested, put some atheists together and let them breed for a few generations.
The new generation should have the same homicidal tendencies as the religious ones.
I see no reason to put my assertions under the stress of scientific review.
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 02:05:29 PM
I'm just saying, I have never seen a bunch of atheists wanting to murder people for any reason, not just belief/lack of belief reasons. Well, okay, there are the assholes on Facebook, but they don't count because none of them are old enough to buy guns.
I don't think you could ever fix religious violence by depriving people of religion, but there's something that happens to people when they stop believing in God that causes them to understand the pettiness of a lot of things.
Ground rules: You may not refer to Stalin or Mao in whatever discussion comes after this post.
The best way to stamp out religious violence is killing religious people. I don't have a moral issue with this, I mean they believe in a magical afterlife fairy kingdom, right? So all the guy with his finger on the trigger would be doing is pushing them up the queue.
Of course the ones actually starting the wars, I very much doubt they believe in it. The one who's running the scam isn't the one who's eating the bait, it'd be a fucking idiotic con-job if they did.
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 02:05:29 PM
I'm just saying, I have never seen a bunch of atheists wanting to murder people for any reason, not just belief/lack of belief reasons. Well, okay, there are the assholes on Facebook, but they don't count because none of them are old enough to buy guns.
I don't think you could ever fix religious violence by depriving people of religion, but there's something that happens to people when they stop believing in God that causes them to understand the pettiness of a lot of things.
Ground rules: You may not refer to Stalin or Mao in whatever discussion comes after this post.
Well, then, the standard gets a bit easier then, doesn't it?
Likewise, Christians have never murdered anyone. Ground Rules: You may not refer to Native Americans, Jews, Muslims, or weird sub-sects of Christianity in whatever discussion comes after this post.
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 02:05:29 PM
I'm just saying, I have never seen a bunch of atheists wanting to murder people for any reason, not just belief/lack of belief reasons. Well, okay, there are the assholes on Facebook, but they don't count because none of them are old enough to buy guns.
I don't think you could ever fix religious violence by depriving people of religion, but there's something that happens to people when they stop believing in God that causes them to understand the pettiness of a lot of things.
Ground rules: You may not refer to Stalin or Mao in whatever discussion comes after this post.
Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens.
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 01:50:44 PM
I wonder if the problem could be that so many of them think there is an invisible man telling them what to do. Don't get me wrong, that's a fault that America is no stranger to, but at least our invisible man stopped ordering decapitations a (relatively short) while ago. Apparently "kill the unbelievers" isn't just satire to these guys.
Given most of the Middle East was pretty fucked up at a time when secularism and lack of belief in Islam were pretty high, I'm going to go with "nope".
Maybe, just maybe it has something to do with the last 100 years of Middle Eastern history being dominated by oil. Oil that western powers increasingly needed to fuel their economic growth and their rapidly modernizing militaries. Perhaps those countries meddled, continually, in the Middle East, arming dangerous and fanatical factions and propping up dictators with ridiculous moustaches who destroyed civil society - at western demand - lest it form some kind of opposition to their natural resources being exploited by foreigners and by fat sheikhs whose aristocratic credentials were mostly the invention of imperialist powers in the first place. And maybe, just maybe, those powers tacitly promote and instigate violence in that region to this day, because it stops any one central regional power dominating it, and thus potentially having the resources and power to diminish western financial interests in the region.
Nah, that's just crazy talk. It must be HERP DERP MUSLIMS HUR HUR.
Quote from: Cain on August 20, 2013, 04:31:42 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 01:50:44 PM
I wonder if the problem could be that so many of them think there is an invisible man telling them what to do. Don't get me wrong, that's a fault that America is no stranger to, but at least our invisible man stopped ordering decapitations a (relatively short) while ago. Apparently "kill the unbelievers" isn't just satire to these guys.
Given most of the Middle East was pretty fucked up at a time when secularism and lack of belief in Islam were pretty high, I'm going to go with "nope".
Maybe, just maybe it has something to do with the last 100 years of Middle Eastern history being dominated by oil. Oil that western powers increasingly needed to fuel their economic growth and their rapidly modernizing militaries. Perhaps those countries meddled, continually, in the Middle East, arming dangerous and fanatical factions and propping up dictators with ridiculous moustaches who destroyed civil society - at western demand - lest it form some kind of opposition to their natural resources being exploited by foreigners and by fat sheikhs whose aristocratic credentials were mostly the invention of imperialist powers in the first place. And maybe, just maybe, those powers tacitly promote and instigate violence in that region to this day, because it stops any one central regional power dominating it, and thus potentially having the resources and power to diminish western financial interests in the region.
Nah, that's just crazy talk. It must be HERP DERP MUSLIMS HUR HUR.
No, not "herp derp muslims hur hur." Just religion in general. Although I think :regret: is closer to the point than I was with the willingness to question or change one's beliefs when presented with conflicting information. Religion isn't the root cause of any of this, but it's a key player in making sure nobody tries to rise above it.
Utopian control freaks use whatever tools come to hand to enforce their Utopias, religion included, and atheism is one of them.
Are we allowed to mention Pol pot, Kim Jong Il, Mussolini, Jim Jones, or Than Shwe? Or are they off-limits too, on account of atheism being unimpeachable as long as you censor stuff?
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 20, 2013, 04:45:00 PM
Utopian control freaks use whatever tools come to hand to enforce their Utopias, religion included, and atheism is one of them.
Are we allowed to mention Pol pot, Kim Jong Il, Mussolini, Jim Jones, or Than Shwe? Or are they off-limits too, on account of atheism being unimpeachable as long as you censor stuff?
I have also decided that Andrew Jackson was a fine man, as long as you fuckers don't RUIN IT by bringing up Native Americans.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 20, 2013, 04:47:20 PM
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 20, 2013, 04:45:00 PM
Utopian control freaks use whatever tools come to hand to enforce their Utopias, religion included, and atheism is one of them.
Are we allowed to mention Pol pot, Kim Jong Il, Mussolini, Jim Jones, or Than Shwe? Or are they off-limits too, on account of atheism being unimpeachable as long as you censor stuff?
I have also decided that Andrew Jackson was a fine man, as long as you fuckers don't RUIN IT by bringing up Native Americans.
I can prove ANY point now, if we're playing by these rules! :lol: You are disallowed to consider any inconvenient contradictory facts.
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 20, 2013, 04:45:00 PM
Utopian control freaks use whatever tools come to hand to enforce their Utopias, religion included, and atheism is one of them.
Are we allowed to mention Pol pot, Kim Jong Il, Mussolini, Jim Jones, or Than Shwe? Or are they off-limits too, on account of atheism being unimpeachable as long as you censor stuff?
I think I've made it clear that my statement is unassailable, morally, logically, and historically. You may choose to disagree, as long as you do so quietly. I don't censor anything, though. I encourage all constructive conversation that contributes to overall acceptance of what I have said.
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 04:50:55 PM
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 20, 2013, 04:45:00 PM
Utopian control freaks use whatever tools come to hand to enforce their Utopias, religion included, and atheism is one of them.
Are we allowed to mention Pol pot, Kim Jong Il, Mussolini, Jim Jones, or Than Shwe? Or are they off-limits too, on account of atheism being unimpeachable as long as you censor stuff?
I think I've made it clear that my statement is unassailable, morally, logically, and historically. You may choose to disagree, as long as you do so quietly. I don't censor anything, though. I encourage all constructive conversation that contributes to overall acceptance of what I have said.
Personally, I find that claiming documentation supports my case. Then I don't post any, and 5 pages later say that I have posted documentation
ad nauseum, and it just gets ignored. To remain honest, though, I post one cite that comes from a source that has a financially vested interest in my point of view.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 20, 2013, 04:53:58 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 04:50:55 PM
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 20, 2013, 04:45:00 PM
Utopian control freaks use whatever tools come to hand to enforce their Utopias, religion included, and atheism is one of them.
Are we allowed to mention Pol pot, Kim Jong Il, Mussolini, Jim Jones, or Than Shwe? Or are they off-limits too, on account of atheism being unimpeachable as long as you censor stuff?
I think I've made it clear that my statement is unassailable, morally, logically, and historically. You may choose to disagree, as long as you do so quietly. I don't censor anything, though. I encourage all constructive conversation that contributes to overall acceptance of what I have said.
Personally, I find that claiming documentation supports my case. Then I don't post any, and 5 pages later say that I have posted documentation ad nauseum, and it just gets ignored. To remain honest, though, I post one cite that comes from a source that has a financially vested interest in my point of view.
It's dangerous to even
use the word "documentation" until it has been safely redefined to mean "the idea that proof must exist somewhere, but is too much work to find."
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 04:37:44 PM
No, not "herp derp muslims hur hur." Just religion in general. Although I think :regret: is closer to the point than I was with the willingness to question or change one's beliefs when presented with conflicting information. Religion isn't the root cause of any of this, but it's a key player in making sure nobody tries to rise above it.
Nice job at completely ignoring the point, that 100 years of covert chicanery designed to promote conflict in the pursuit of cheap oil is the main contributing factor to Middle East violence.
The Muslim Brotherhood wouldn't even exist, if not for the CIA and MI6 mailing them bags of money, arranging safe havens for them in Saudi Arabia etc. Hell, Saudi Arabia only exists because al-Saud got mercenaries paid for by American oil interests during the Saudi Civil War. Who funds the Egyptian military? Who funded SAVAK? Who supported Saddam to the hilt, while covertly arming the Ayatollahs? Who unleashed the mujahideen on the world? Who decided to use radical Islam as a bulwark against Communism and socialism?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 20, 2013, 04:53:58 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 04:50:55 PM
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 20, 2013, 04:45:00 PM
Utopian control freaks use whatever tools come to hand to enforce their Utopias, religion included, and atheism is one of them.
Are we allowed to mention Pol pot, Kim Jong Il, Mussolini, Jim Jones, or Than Shwe? Or are they off-limits too, on account of atheism being unimpeachable as long as you censor stuff?
I think I've made it clear that my statement is unassailable, morally, logically, and historically. You may choose to disagree, as long as you do so quietly. I don't censor anything, though. I encourage all constructive conversation that contributes to overall acceptance of what I have said.
Personally, I find that claiming documentation supports my case. Then I don't post any, and 5 pages later say that I have posted documentation ad nauseum, and it just gets ignored. To remain honest, though, I post one cite that comes from a source that has a financially vested interest in my point of view.
:lulz:
OMG CRAZY RELIGIONISTS
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/world/middleeast/morsi-spurned-deals-to-the-end-seeing-the-military-as-tamed.html?_r=0
QuoteAs President Mohamed Morsi huddled in his guard's quarters during his last hours as Egypt's first elected leader, he received a call from an Arab foreign minister with a final offer to end a standoff with the country's top generals, senior advisers with the president said.
The foreign minister said he was acting as an emissary of Washington, the advisers said, and he asked if Mr. Morsi would accept the appointment of a new prime minister and cabinet, one that would take over all legislative powers and replace his chosen provincial governors.
The aides said they already knew what Mr. Morsi's answer would be. He had responded to a similar proposal by pointing at his neck. "This before that," he had told his aides, repeating a vow to die before accepting what he considered a de facto coup and thus a crippling blow to Egyptian democracy.
His top foreign policy adviser, Essam el-Haddad, then left the room to call the United States ambassador, Anne W. Patterson, to say that Mr. Morsi refused. When he returned, he said he had spoken to Susan E. Rice, the national security adviser, and that the military takeover was about to begin, senior aides said.
"Mother just told us that we will stop playing in one hour," an aide texted an associate, playing on a sarcastic Egyptian expression for the country's Western patron, "Mother America."
...
Mr. Morsi's advisers had meetings with Ms. Patterson and her deputy as well as a phone call with Ms. Rice, the national security adviser. Mr. Morsi's advisers argued that ousting the president would be "a long term disaster" for Egypt and the Arab world because people would "lose faith in democracy." They said it would set off an explosion in the streets that they could not control.
And they argued that the United States was implicated: "Nobody who knows Egypt is going to believe a coup could go forward without a green light from the Americans."
BOY IT SURE IS A GOOD THING RELIGION, AND NOT GEOPOLITICAL CHICANERY BY THE USA, IS THE "KEY PLAYER" IN VIOLENCE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, OR V3X WOULD LOOK REAL FUCKING STUPID RIGHT NOW.
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 04:56:54 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 20, 2013, 04:53:58 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 04:50:55 PM
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 20, 2013, 04:45:00 PM
Utopian control freaks use whatever tools come to hand to enforce their Utopias, religion included, and atheism is one of them.
Are we allowed to mention Pol pot, Kim Jong Il, Mussolini, Jim Jones, or Than Shwe? Or are they off-limits too, on account of atheism being unimpeachable as long as you censor stuff?
I think I've made it clear that my statement is unassailable, morally, logically, and historically. You may choose to disagree, as long as you do so quietly. I don't censor anything, though. I encourage all constructive conversation that contributes to overall acceptance of what I have said.
Personally, I find that claiming documentation supports my case. Then I don't post any, and 5 pages later say that I have posted documentation ad nauseum, and it just gets ignored. To remain honest, though, I post one cite that comes from a source that has a financially vested interest in my point of view.
It's dangerous to even use the word "documentation" until it has been safely redefined to mean "the idea that proof must exist somewhere, but is too much work to find."
:lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: Cain on August 20, 2013, 05:21:35 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 04:37:44 PM
No, not "herp derp muslims hur hur." Just religion in general. Although I think \:regret\: is closer to the point than I was with the willingness to question or change one's beliefs when presented with conflicting information. Religion isn't the root cause of any of this, but it's a key player in making sure nobody tries to rise above it.
Nice job at completely ignoring the point, that 100 years of covert chicanery designed to promote conflict in the pursuit of cheap oil is the main contributing factor to Middle East violence.
The Muslim Brotherhood wouldn't even exist, if not for the CIA and MI6 mailing them bags of money, arranging safe havens for them in Saudi Arabia etc. Hell, Saudi Arabia only exists because al-Saud got mercenaries paid for by American oil interests during the Saudi Civil War. Who funds the Egyptian military? Who funded SAVAK? Who supported Saddam to the hilt, while covertly arming the Ayatollahs? Who unleashed the mujahideen on the world? Who decided to use radical Islam as a bulwark against Communism and socialism?
Yeah, actually I'm not trying to sidestep your remarks. I'm just having a hard time putting on my serious face today and should probably stay out of threads like this. Having said that, I think we're talking past each other here. You're making a valid point that's on topic for this thread, and I'm trailing off into nowhere and trying to make fun of theists.
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 05:33:04 PM
Quote from: Cain on August 20, 2013, 05:21:35 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 20, 2013, 04:37:44 PM
No, not "herp derp muslims hur hur." Just religion in general. Although I think \:regret\: is closer to the point than I was with the willingness to question or change one's beliefs when presented with conflicting information. Religion isn't the root cause of any of this, but it's a key player in making sure nobody tries to rise above it.
Nice job at completely ignoring the point, that 100 years of covert chicanery designed to promote conflict in the pursuit of cheap oil is the main contributing factor to Middle East violence.
The Muslim Brotherhood wouldn't even exist, if not for the CIA and MI6 mailing them bags of money, arranging safe havens for them in Saudi Arabia etc. Hell, Saudi Arabia only exists because al-Saud got mercenaries paid for by American oil interests during the Saudi Civil War. Who funds the Egyptian military? Who funded SAVAK? Who supported Saddam to the hilt, while covertly arming the Ayatollahs? Who unleashed the mujahideen on the world? Who decided to use radical Islam as a bulwark against Communism and socialism?
Yeah, actually I'm not trying to sidestep your remarks. I'm just having a hard time putting on my serious face today and should probably stay out of threads like this. Having said that, I think we're talking past each other here. You're making a valid point that's on topic for this thread, and I'm trailing off into nowhere and trying to make fun of theists.
As I thought, you were trolling.
I don't think it's specifically religion. Consider Assad in Syria, Saddam in Iraq, the CHP in Turkey... All mostly 'secular' but still pretty terrible leaders. I think it probably has more to do with the cultural artefacts like inequality of the sexes, races and subcultures. If you see women, Kurds, Shiites, Palistinans, conservative religious or liberal secularists as lesser beings, then it's easy to run over them without a second thought. See also the US in dealing with Native Americans, Africans, the Irish, Mexicans, Japanese Americans ad nausea.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 21, 2013, 03:10:08 PM
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/8446_482305451846392_1842982889_n.jpg)
Rubber bullet. They shot it at the kid's face through the mask.
Facebook has lost this photo and I can't find it on my hard drive anywhere. It's a boy, maybe 10 or 11, holding a guy fawkes mask with a hole in it and bleeding from his face. My google-fu is weak. If anyone can help me find it, I would be endlessly grateful.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 16, 2016, 06:59:12 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 21, 2013, 03:10:08 PM
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/8446_482305451846392_1842982889_n.jpg)
Rubber bullet. They shot it at the kid's face through the mask.
Facebook has lost this photo and I can't find it on my hard drive anywhere. It's a boy, maybe 10 or 11, holding a guy fawkes mask with a hole in it and bleeding from his face. My google-fu is weak. If anyone can help me find it, I would be endlessly grateful.
This one?
(https://new3.fjcdn.com/comments/From+21+jun+2013+_bf680946108e2794e1596e34e5222a84.jpg)
Quote from: Random Probability on February 17, 2016, 11:41:23 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 16, 2016, 06:59:12 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on June 21, 2013, 03:10:08 PM
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/8446_482305451846392_1842982889_n.jpg)
Rubber bullet. They shot it at the kid's face through the mask.
Facebook has lost this photo and I can't find it on my hard drive anywhere. It's a boy, maybe 10 or 11, holding a guy fawkes mask with a hole in it and bleeding from his face. My google-fu is weak. If anyone can help me find it, I would be endlessly grateful.
This one?
(https://new3.fjcdn.com/comments/From+21+jun+2013+_bf680946108e2794e1596e34e5222a84.jpg)
Thank you!!!