Recent movies like Star Trek and The Lone Ranger feature as one of their main characters someone doing the face of someone of another race. On SNL Fred Armisen will often play anyone of any race including the president. In Star Trek Zoe Saldana plays a black character and in The Lone Ranger Johnny Depp plays a Native American. With the history of Black-face in America it can be easy to just condemn this kind of activity outright as racist and messed up but in discussing it with a friend he seems to not understand what is so bad about it. His argument was that if it is an actor's job to play people who they aren't like space captains and wizards, why cant they transcend race barriers in their acting as well. If Zoe isn't doing anything terrible in Star Trek, then she isn't really doing anything racist or wrong. I personally find it a bit distasteful (which may have to do with me being black and him being white). What do you guys think?
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 03:48:23 AM
Recent movies like Star Trek and The Lone Ranger feature as one of their main characters someone doing the face of someone of another race. On SNL Fred Armisen will often play anyone of any race including the president. In Star Trek Zoe Saldana plays a black character and in The Lone Ranger Johnny Depp plays a Native American. With the history of Black-face in America it can be easy to just condemn this kind of activity outright as racist and messed up but in discussing it with a friend he seems to not understand what is so bad about it. His argument was that if it is an actor's job to play people who they aren't like space captains and wizards, why cant they transcend race barriers in their acting as well. If Zoe isn't doing anything terrible in Star Trek, then she isn't really doing anything racist or wrong. I personally find it a bit distasteful (which may have to do with me being black and him being white). What do you guys think?
Blackface was offensive not so much because of the facepaint, but because they were enacting the stereotypes of black people, laughing at the stereotypes of black people, and reinforcing the stereotypes of black people.
I'm not black though. I'm just an uppity feminazi queer he/she. What do I know?
Can you explain to me why you find it offensive?
I mean, it seems like black people ought to be acted by black people...if nothing else to give black actors more gigs, and to get people used to the idea that black people, and First Nations people as well, are actually people. That does seem to be a problem with some sectors of the anglo populace.
And keep in mind I don't watch tv much.
( I watch it at the GF's where it is all murders, all the time. She likes Investigation Discovery a LOT. So I get to make out to murder cases. Hey, I get to make out, that's the important part.)
I'm not sure if it's wrong or not. Maybe it has something to do with the quality of the acting. Maybe it has something to do with portraying the character in a positive light?
Ultimately, being causation, I'm sure it's not my place to say.
I do, however, fully support whiteface: http://www.hulu.com/watch/10356
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on June 21, 2013, 04:15:47 AM
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 03:48:23 AM
Recent movies like Star Trek and The Lone Ranger feature as one of their main characters someone doing the face of someone of another race. On SNL Fred Armisen will often play anyone of any race including the president. In Star Trek Zoe Saldana plays a black character and in The Lone Ranger Johnny Depp plays a Native American. With the history of Black-face in America it can be easy to just condemn this kind of activity outright as racist and messed up but in discussing it with a friend he seems to not understand what is so bad about it. His argument was that if it is an actor's job to play people who they aren't like space captains and wizards, why cant they transcend race barriers in their acting as well. If Zoe isn't doing anything terrible in Star Trek, then she isn't really doing anything racist or wrong. I personally find it a bit distasteful (which may have to do with me being black and him being white). What do you guys think?
Blackface was offensive not so much because of the facepaint, but because they were enacting the stereotypes of black people, laughing at the stereotypes of black people, and reinforcing the stereotypes of black people.
I'm not black though. I'm just an uppity feminazi queer he/she. What do I know?
Can you explain to me why you find it offensive?
I mean, it seems like black people ought to be acted by black people...if nothing else to give black actors more gigs, and to get people used to the idea that black people, and First Nations people as well, are actually people. That does seem to be a problem with some sectors of the anglo populace.
And keep in mind I don't watch tv much.
( I watch it at the GF's where it is all murders, all the time. She likes Investigation Discovery a LOT. So I get to make out to murder cases. Hey, I get to make out, that's the important part.)
Maybe it's not so much offensive but knowing that really racist history of acting out stereotypes and generally portraying black people in a terrible light, it just puts a creep in my stomach you know. I feel uncomfortable seeing it and I feel like it's kind of messed up. Because these characters aren't always acting out stereotypes then maybe it isn't in itself wrong. That doesn't stop it makin my stomach crawl.
Quote from: Bu☆ns on June 21, 2013, 04:19:30 AM
I'm not sure if it's wrong or not. Maybe it has something to do with the quality of the acting. Maybe it has something to do with portraying the character in a positive light?
Ultimately, being causation, I'm sure it's not my place to say.
I do, however, fully support whiteface: http://www.hulu.com/watch/10356
That I really don't know what to feel. Lemme sleep on it.
Why do you say that Zoe Saldana is not black, or imply she isn't? She looks black, and not just her skin tone. Wikipedia suggests that her dad is Dominican.
This is just something that is bugging me, and nobody has to get hostile with the response, because I am well aware I'm derpy as hell in this subject.
I just think that Tom Cruise playing "The Last Samurai" and Brad Pitt playing Achilles is much of an asshole move.
No, guy, Japanese and Greek heroes did not have American faces, please.
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on June 21, 2013, 04:45:52 AM
Why do you say that Zoe Saldana is not black, or imply she isn't? She looks black, and not just her skin tone. Wikipedia suggests that her dad is Dominican.
This is just something that is bugging me, and nobody has to get hostile with the response, because I am well aware I'm derpy as hell in this subject.
Thought she was spanish. The wiki page says she claims pride in being Latina.
Quote from: The Johnny on June 21, 2013, 05:04:28 AM
I just think that Tom Cruise playing "The Last Samurai" and Brad Pitt playing Achilles is much of an asshole move.
No, guy, Japanese and Greek heroes did not have American faces, please.
The Last Samurai was more objectionable for its trotting out of the "White Guy saves primitives" storyline which is racist in itself and featured in other things like Avatar.
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 05:07:53 AM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on June 21, 2013, 04:45:52 AM
Why do you say that Zoe Saldana is not black, or imply she isn't? She looks black, and not just her skin tone. Wikipedia suggests that her dad is Dominican.
This is just something that is bugging me, and nobody has to get hostile with the response, because I am well aware I'm derpy as hell in this subject.
Thought she was spanish. The wikipage says she claims pride in being Latina.
-shrug- I am not Latin or Black, so I have no idea there. As far as job applications go, though, being Latina is different from being Black or White or Asian or anything else.
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 03:48:23 AM
Recent movies like Star Trek and The Lone Ranger feature as one of their main characters someone doing the face of someone of another race. On SNL Fred Armisen will often play anyone of any race including the president. In Star Trek Zoe Saldana plays a black character and in The Lone Ranger Johnny Depp plays a Native American. With the history of Black-face in America it can be easy to just condemn this kind of activity outright as racist and messed up but in discussing it with a friend he seems to not understand what is so bad about it. His argument was that if it is an actor's job to play people who they aren't like space captains and wizards, why cant they transcend race barriers in their acting as well. If Zoe isn't doing anything terrible in Star Trek, then she isn't really doing anything racist or wrong. I personally find it a bit distasteful (which may have to do with me being black and him being white). What do you guys think?
I hope I'm wrong, but it's like they're skating on the edge of something really, really disgusting and they're going to push it further until we're all the way back to fucking Amos and Andy.
Zoe's Dominican and Puerto Rican (just googled) and so there's more than likely some African ancestry there. Depp claims some Native (might be a Cherohonkey though.) So they have an out. Sort of.
If we had a less appallingly fucked up racial track record, it wouldn't be a big deal. It's acting. Play anybody you want. But this shit says "We're not even sorry and we're not even TRYING to make amends or get things on track or any of that. Fuck you."
Like that Washington Redskins logo. Everybody's been trying to get rid of that for decades.
REALLY, REALLY not comfortable with ANY of this.
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 05:07:53 AM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on June 21, 2013, 04:45:52 AM
Why do you say that Zoe Saldana is not black, or imply she isn't? She looks black, and not just her skin tone. Wikipedia suggests that her dad is Dominican.
This is just something that is bugging me, and nobody has to get hostile with the response, because I am well aware I'm derpy as hell in this subject.
Thought she was spanish. The wiki page says she claims pride in being Latina.
Caribbian people generally identify as Latina/Latino. But lot of them are near indistinguishable from Black people until they start speaking. Lots of African ancestry as a rule, so kind of a blurry line. But I've only heard one refer to herself as Black. Ever.
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on June 21, 2013, 04:45:52 AM
Why do you say that Zoe Saldana is not black, or imply she isn't? She looks black, and not just her skin tone. Wikipedia suggests that her dad is Dominican.
This is just something that is bugging me, and nobody has to get hostile with the response, because I am well aware I'm derpy as hell in this subject.
Dominicans generally consider themselves Latino. And since the Haitians are black and NOBODY on earth hates any other group of people like Dominicans hate Haitians, I could see that reinforcing the Dominicanos cultural affiliation with the "Latinsphere" at the expense of the fact that many if not most of them have African lineage in their background as well.
Just a supposition on my part, but a reasonably informed one (I'd like to think).
And why is TONTO even being resurrected?
I have no moral judgement on the issue, to paraphrase Bebek Sincap Ratatosk, I don't see race, i just see genes going around in a circle :)
But this reminds me of the first time i found out about the dutch "christmas" tradition of "Zwarte Piet" (black peter), dutch santa's little helpers :?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet
I was shocked because I saw the dutch as extremely tolerant and non-racist people. When confronted some of them with the (i thought then) obvious issue with this, they were either shocked: "what? i never saw it like that! he's just from spain!" :lulz: or they were all like "yeah yeah, i've been told before but it's you that thinks that". Occassionally one would say "yeah, i guess you're right but I never saw it like that". I dunno...i mean the dutch did elect wilders, but on the other hand everyone i talked to seemed pretty honest in their ignorance of that image. Then again, i am a VERY poor judge of honesty - i tend to accept things literally. :? :?
Quote from: Balls Wellington on June 21, 2013, 06:41:23 AM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on June 21, 2013, 04:45:52 AM
Why do you say that Zoe Saldana is not black, or imply she isn't? She looks black, and not just her skin tone. Wikipedia suggests that her dad is Dominican.
This is just something that is bugging me, and nobody has to get hostile with the response, because I am well aware I'm derpy as hell in this subject.
Dominicans generally consider themselves Latino. And since the Haitians are black and NOBODY on earth hates any other group of people like Dominicans hate Haitians, I could see that reinforcing the Dominicanos cultural affiliation with the "Latinsphere" at the expense of the fact that many if not most of them have African lineage in their background as well.
Just a supposition on my part, but a reasonably informed one (I'd like to think).
Yeah. This.
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 06:42:57 AM
I have no moral judgement on the issue, to paraphrase Bebek Sincap Ratatosk, I don't see race, i just see genes going around in a circle :)
But this reminds me of the first time i found out about the dutch "christmas" tradition of "Zwarte Piet" (black peter), dutch santa's little helpers :?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet
I was shocked because I saw the dutch as extremely tolerant and non-racist people. When confronted some of them with the (i thought then) obvious issue with this, they were either shocked: "what? i never saw it like that! he's just from spain!" :lulz: or they were all like "yeah yeah, i've been told before but it's you that thinks that". Occassionally one would say "yeah, i guess you're right but I never saw it like that". I dunno...i mean the dutch did elect wilders, but on the other hand everyone i talked to seemed pretty honest in their ignorance of that image. Then again, i am a VERY poor judge of honesty - i tend to accept things literally. :? :?
A lot of weird shit flies in Europe that gives us the fucking willies. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-07/masked-good-friday-penitents-march-in-italy/3937514
I realize this might be an unpopular idea, but Johnny Depp can play any damn thing he wants imo.
Quote from: Bu☆ns on June 21, 2013, 07:03:11 AM
I realize this might be an unpopular idea, but Johnny Depp can play any damn thing he wants imo.
There is this to consider.
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 06:42:57 AMI don't see race
You understand that this is a ridiculous thing to say and something that could ONLY be said by someone in a position of extreme privilege, right?
Quote from: Balls Wellington on June 21, 2013, 08:26:10 AM
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 06:42:57 AMI don't see race
You understand that this is a ridiculous thing to say and something that could ONLY be said by someone in a position of extreme privilege, right?
Fucking THIS. So much this. I find those who "don't see race" are the least likely to notice subconscious racism in themselves.
As for caribbean folks what about jamaica, barbados, and the ex commonwealth places? you've got the spanish speaking, the english speaking and the french speaking islands and I would consider that they would all identify differently(?) anyway, latina/ latino can run the gamut from pasty assed white to black and everything in between.
Quote from: Balls Wellington on June 21, 2013, 06:41:23 AM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on June 21, 2013, 04:45:52 AM
Why do you say that Zoe Saldana is not black, or imply she isn't? She looks black, and not just her skin tone. Wikipedia suggests that her dad is Dominican.
This is just something that is bugging me, and nobody has to get hostile with the response, because I am well aware I'm derpy as hell in this subject.
Dominicans generally consider themselves Latino. And since the Haitians are black and NOBODY on earth hates any other group of people like Dominicans hate Haitians, I could see thareinforcing the Dominicanos cultural affiliation with the "Latinsphere" at the expense of the fact that many if not most of them have African lineage in their background as well.
Just a supposition on my part, but a reasonably informed one (I'd like to think).
Thanks, dude. I was hoping someone could come and shed a bit of light on this who has better info than Wikipedia to go on.
I still say that Zoe Saldana is legit for the part of Uhura. That's pretty much my only beef with the OP.
Sometimes a bit distasteful, but it depends a lot on the context. I mean, for instance, in the case of Stark Trek, Khan was originally envisaged as a Nordic white supremacist anyway, and was only changed in order to help Gene Rodeberry reconnect with an old buddy from his military days, who happened to be a Sikh. Plus, you know, the whole "genetically engineered ubermensch" thing. Ricardo Montalban was a Mexican born of Spanish parents anyway, so the "original" Khan was also of European background - if a bit more tanned than Cumberbatch (not that this is a hard feat to accomplish).
I suppose it depends a lot on how critical the race of the character is to the character themselves. Again, using the Khan example, his race is really incidental - it's his intelligence, his drive for power and his pursuit of revenge that mark him as the character he is. So, eh, whatever. Cumberbatch would probably not have been my first choice for the villain, but there is no doubt he plays the role superbly, and has some experience with portraying those type of characters (how far away is Khan from Sherlock? Not very). Same goes for the whole "Black Human Torch" debacle (http://badassdigest.com/2013/05/02/5-reasons-a-black-human-torch-is-no-big-deal/).
Quote from: Balls Wellington on June 21, 2013, 08:26:10 AM
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 06:42:57 AMI don't see race
You understand that this is a ridiculous thing to say and something that could ONLY be said by someone in a position of extreme privilege, right?
I was sort of waiting on her to return and respond...
But I thought the joke afterward was important to the meaning....
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 06:42:57 AM
I have no moral judgement on the issue, to paraphrase Bebek Sincap Ratatosk, I don't see race, i just see genes going around in a circle :)
In reality we were down to about 20,000 breeding pairs of humans 70,000 years ago. This population bottleneck left us pretty homogenized as a species.
So race is a social construct, with real social penalties for not having skin privilege. That's real.
It's also real that we're all really closely frickin' related. Race may have social reality, but genetic? not so much.
Quote from: Pixie on June 21, 2013, 10:19:05 AM
Quote from: Balls Wellington on June 21, 2013, 08:26:10 AM
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 06:42:57 AMI don't see race
You understand that this is a ridiculous thing to say and something that could ONLY be said by someone in a position of extreme privilege, right?
Fucking THIS. So much this. I find those who "don't see race" are the least likely to notice subconscious racism in themselves.
As for caribbean folks what about jamaica, barbados, and the ex commonwealth places? you've got the spanish speaking, the english speaking and the french speaking islands and I would consider that they would all identify differently(?) anyway, latina/ latino can run the gamut from pasty assed white to black and everything in between.
well, i don't know if it seems ridiculous to you now, i meant that i do not have a scientific definition of "race" as i accept that the variation of genes within "races" is larger than the variation of genes between the "races". I therefore see "race" as something purely cultural. And cultural things are VERY COMPLICATED to me, i have enough trouble figuring out MY OWN mixed culture, not only the ones provided by my "different race" parents but the cultures of the ethnicities and of the individuals that i incorporated so far in my life.
PS- Not accepting the term "race" as a genetic thing does not mean that i don't think racism exists - that would be ridiculous indeed.
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on June 21, 2013, 10:58:58 AM
Quote from: Balls Wellington on June 21, 2013, 08:26:10 AM
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 06:42:57 AMI don't see race
You understand that this is a ridiculous thing to say and something that could ONLY be said by someone in a position of extreme privilege, right?
I was sort of waiting on her to return and respond...
But I thought the joke afterward was important to the meaning....
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 06:42:57 AM
I have no moral judgement on the issue, to paraphrase Bebek Sincap Ratatosk, I don't see race, i just see genes going around in a circle :)
In reality we were down to about 20,000 breeding pairs of humans 70,000 years ago. This population bottleneck left us pretty homogenized as a species.
So race is a social construct, with real social penalties for not having skin privilege. That's real.
It's also real that we're all really closely frickin' related. Race may have social reality, but genetic? not so much.
:D exactly!
And in fact - ever since i learned about this human genetic homogeneity, i see noses and ears of people i know on other people's heads, and they appear in the most weird combinations of height,colour, size, gender, whathaveyou. I know that this could be just an illusion of mine and that genes may work differently but it appears realistic and it is very amusing :D
I see race. I see weight, I see hair colour, height, clothes, uniform. If I had to describe someone who was black, I'd say he was a black guy. I ain't going to fuck about with african-scotsman or person of colour or whatever euphemistical bullshit I'm supposed to. By the same token I aint going to decide that, just since the dude is chinese or an albino or a midget that he's ... something other than that colour or height.
If Johnny Depp wants to play a native american, hell if anyone wants to. Isn't it being equally fucking racist to tell them they cant, just because they're the wrong race? Yeah, forgive me for not being able to take your hypocritical bullshit even remotely seriously.
Considering the fact that what is probably going to happen is he's going to make it look like native americans are the coolest motherfuckers ever, what's the grave offence exactly?
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 21, 2013, 12:38:14 PM
I see race. I see weight, I see hair colour, height, clothes, uniform. If I had to describe someone who was black, I'd say he was a black guy. I ain't going to fuck about with african-scotsman or person of colour or whatever euphemistical bullshit I'm supposed to. By the same token I aint going to decide that, just since the dude is chinese or an albino or a midget that he's ... something other than that colour or height.
If Johnny Depp wants to play a native american, hell if anyone wants to. Isn't it being equally fucking racist to tell them they cant, just because they're the wrong race? Yeah, forgive me for not being able to take your hypocritical bullshit even remotely seriously.
Considering the fact that what is probably going to happen is he's going to make it look like native americans are the coolest motherfuckers ever, what's the grave offence exactly?
Certainly that's a point of view I can understand. I wasn't saying it's wrong in itself but that it creeps me out to see it. Maybe I should just suck it up and stop worrying about it because the times they are a changin.
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 06:42:57 AM
I have no moral judgement on the issue, to paraphrase Bebek Sincap Ratatosk, I don't see race, i just see genes going around in a circle :)
Easy for you to say, paleface.
On Johnny Depp: we're working with a group of Navajo who've had their shit fucked up from irresponsible Uranium mining on their land, Depp has ponied up for them and I know throwing money at causes doesn't make everything okay, but they've given us the impression that he's not so much a "Cherohonkey" as it was put earlier in the thread. That said, major concerns about how the character is written.
People dont see race only if its one white person talking to another white person.
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 05:07:53 AM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on June 21, 2013, 04:45:52 AM
Why do you say that Zoe Saldana is not black, or imply she isn't? She looks black, and not just her skin tone. Wikipedia suggests that her dad is Dominican.
This is just something that is bugging me, and nobody has to get hostile with the response, because I am well aware I'm derpy as hell in this subject.
Thought she was spanish. The wiki page says she claims pride in being Latina.
Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a race, so there are lots of Black Hispanics.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 21, 2013, 03:00:02 PM
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 06:42:57 AM
I have no moral judgement on the issue, to paraphrase Bebek Sincap Ratatosk, I don't see race, i just see genes going around in a circle :)
Easy for you to say, paleface.
:lulz: i'm just going to say the obvious about how do you make assumptions about my skin colour. Unless paleface has some sort of an uknown to me cultural meaning :lulz: I also refer you to my previous answer and to:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1893020/
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 21, 2013, 12:38:14 PM
I see race. I see weight, I see hair colour, height, clothes, uniform. If I had to describe someone who was black, I'd say he was a black guy. I ain't going to fuck about with african-scotsman or person of colour or whatever euphemistical bullshit I'm supposed to. By the same token I aint going to decide that, just since the dude is chinese or an albino or a midget that he's ... something other than that colour or height.
Is skin colour what makes a person of a certain race? That's an interesting definition :lulz:
I would use skin colour, weight, hairstyle, etc also to describe a person. But i think black could be nigerian or north american or indian, etc, yellow could be chinese, latin american, north american, etc, white could be new zealander, swedish, italian, etc. So the skin colour alone doesn't say much to me. Unless you're green. Then you're martian scum :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: The Twid on June 21, 2013, 04:15:32 PM
People dont see race only if its one white person talking to another white person.
all generalisations are wrong :D
Yes, skin color and ancestral geographic origin are the only things that defines race.
I have more to say on the acting topic but I have to go to work now. BACK LATER YOU SPAGS.
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 04:22:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 21, 2013, 03:00:02 PM
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 06:42:57 AM
I have no moral judgement on the issue, to paraphrase Bebek Sincap Ratatosk, I don't see race, i just see genes going around in a circle :)
Easy for you to say, paleface.
:lulz: i'm just going to say the obvious about how do you make assumptions about my skin colour. Unless paleface has some sort of an uknown to me cultural meaning :lulz: I also refer you to my previous answer and to:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1893020/
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 21, 2013, 12:38:14 PM
I see race. I see weight, I see hair colour, height, clothes, uniform. If I had to describe someone who was black, I'd say he was a black guy. I ain't going to fuck about with african-scotsman or person of colour or whatever euphemistical bullshit I'm supposed to. By the same token I aint going to decide that, just since the dude is chinese or an albino or a midget that he's ... something other than that colour or height.
Is skin colour what makes a person of a certain race? That's an interesting definition :lulz:
I would use skin colour, weight, hairstyle, etc also to describe a person. But i think black could be nigerian or north american or indian, etc, yellow could be chinese, latin american, north american, etc, white could be new zealander, swedish, italian, etc. So the skin colour alone doesn't say much to me. Unless you're green. Then you're martian scum :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: The Twid on June 21, 2013, 04:15:32 PM
People dont see race only if its one white person talking to another white person.
all generalisations are wrong :D
Depends on what youre generalizing. People have an inherent tendency to recognize obvious differences between themselves and others. In western societies white is considered the default skin color. You only have to turn on your tv to notice this. Unless youre white at which point you wont notice until its pointed out to you.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on June 21, 2013, 03:08:32 PM
On Johnny Depp: we're working with a group of Navajo who've had their shit fucked up from irresponsible Uranium mining on their land, Depp has ponied up for them and I know throwing money at causes doesn't make everything okay, but they've given us the impression that he's not so much a "Cherohonkey" as it was put earlier in the thread. That said, major concerns about how the character is written.
It's great that he did that, but we don't know the motivation. Worst case scenario, advance damage control re: the Tonto thing.
And I haven't seen the movie, maybe it totally skewers the whole Lone Ranger thing. Tonto was a fink who was totally up the Lone Ranger's ass and didn't give a flying fuck at a donut hole about his people, right? That NEEDS to be mocked. There's a slim, slim, SLIM chance this thing could redeem itself. Maybe.
And I thought Granny Smith had to be joking, too. But a quick skim read looks like a digging in of heels. :x Going to re-read.
As far as the acting thing goes its not like the actress playing uhura is putting on facepaint for the role. For native americans a lot of them also have european ancestry so what percentage of background is acceptable? What about antonio banderas playing an arab?
Quote from: The Twid on June 21, 2013, 05:35:29 PM
As far as the acting thing goes its not like the actress playing uhura is putting on facepaint for the role. For native americans a lot of them also have european ancestry so what percentage of background is acceptable? What about antonio banderas playing an arab?
The 13th Warrior was an exercise in suck, anyway. :lulz:
I'd stay away from the blood quantum thing, for the most part. The thing with Depp is, as a casual observer I've never seen him particularly involved with Native things on any level, and now that he's playing Tonto he's got "ancestry".
Well if its level of involvement what about someone who is exactly half navajo but has never been involved in navajo activities? What about the guy who played chakotay? If i recall hes mexican american.
Robert beltran i think his name is
Quote from: The Twid on June 21, 2013, 06:05:17 PM
Well if its level of involvement what about someone who is exactly half navajo but has never been involved in navajo activities? What about the guy who played chakotay? If i recall hes mexican american.
I don't have the answers, Twid, just my opinion and the lines are blurred and inconsistent. (Look at the blood quantum laws as opposed to the "one drop" law they used to have for Black people :x )
Personally, I'd have to take into account whether he was uninvolved because he didn't even LIKE Navajo culture, or if he was a paper genocide baby raised outside the culture.
Chakotay guy, IDK. Need to look into this.
No worries. Im merely posing questions for consideration. I dont know much of anything about native issues. Ive only known one native american and i didnt know he was one until he told me. I figured he was latino or something.
Robert Beltram's parents were Mexican-Americans, though with some indigenous ancestery somewhere. He considers his ethnic background to be Latindio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tis_people_%28United_States%29).
Johnny Depp's an interesting case, as he has in fact been adopted by the Comanche tribe, and while Indian culture is tribal, my understanding is that doesn't extend to ethnic background. While some Comanche have considered his honorary membership to be brown-nosing (not unfairly, I might add), he is effectively part of the tribe regardless.
Quote from: Cain on June 21, 2013, 06:24:45 PM
Robert Beltram's parents were Mexican-Americans, though with some indigenous ancestery somewhere. He considers his ethnic background to be Latindio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tis_people_%28United_States%29).
Johnny Depp's an interesting case, as he has in fact been adopted by the Comanche tribe, and while Indian culture is tribal, my understanding is that doesn't extend to ethnic background. While some Comanche have considered his honorary membership to be brown-nosing (not unfairly, I might add), he is effectively part of the tribe regardless.
Cool thanks cain. Thats also interesting about depp
Something else to consider which I think has only been said by one other person in this thread is how activities of this nature, particularly stuff that people like Fred Armisen do, sets up barriers for entry for people of other races who are up and coming. Why hire a black actor to do something when you could get a racial monkey wrench like Armisen to do it. Why hire anyone else of any race when you can get a couple of tan white people to cover all the ethnic bases. I'm not passing a moral judgement here really, but it is perhaps something else to discuss.
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 07:26:00 PM
Why hire a black actor to do something when you could get a racial monkey wrench like Armisen to do it.
A what, now?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 21, 2013, 07:27:30 PM
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 07:26:00 PM
Why hire a black actor to do something when you could get a racial monkey wrench like Armisen to do it.
A what, now?
Someone who can passably play anyone of any race. Fred Armisen often does this.
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 07:35:23 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 21, 2013, 07:27:30 PM
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 07:26:00 PM
Why hire a black actor to do something when you could get a racial monkey wrench like Armisen to do it.
A what, now?
Someone who can passably play anyone of any race. Fred Armisen often does this.
I see.
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 07:26:00 PM
Something else to consider which I think has only been said by one other person in this thread is how activities of this nature, particularly stuff that people like Fred Armisen do, sets up barriers for entry for people of other races who are up and coming. Why hire a black actor to do something when you could get a racial monkey wrench like Armisen to do it. Why hire anyone else of any race when you can get a couple of tan white people to cover all the ethnic bases. I'm not passing a moral judgement here really, but it is perhaps something else to discuss.
It could be a problem.
Except look at all the free publicity a movie gets when it casts someone of
not-the-expected-ethnicity. That seems to work regardless of the ethnicity in question. In fact, it seems to garner more interest when a non-white actor gets a part that is considered normally a white person's role, than the other way around.
And yet when they cast Michael Douglas and Matt Damon as Liberace and his lover, I didn't hear much about why they couldn't find two actually gay actors to play the roles.
Wait, there are non-gay actors?
Quote from: Cain on June 21, 2013, 08:06:01 PM
Wait, there are non-gay actors?
:spittake:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Isn't Lou Diamond Phillips Filpino or something? I've seen him play Mexicans and I think Natives...
I grew up around people who changed their haircolor way too often so i am now incapable of remembering haircolor, it is just not an identifying mark to me.
Maybe if everybody changed skincolor as often as possible a similar effect could be triggered in society as a whole?
Finally the make-up industry can be used for something worthwhile.
Lol.
That reminds me- granny apple- are you now or have you ever been a white person?You said dok made an assumption. I now want to know if there was a legitimate reason for you to say that or if you were just trying to deflect and hoped it went away.
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 07:26:00 PM
Something else to consider which I think has only been said by one other person in this thread is how activities of this nature, particularly stuff that people like Fred Armisen do, sets up barriers for entry for people of other races who are up and coming. Why hire a black actor to do something when you could get a racial monkey wrench like Armisen to do it. Why hire anyone else of any race when you can get a couple of tan white people to cover all the ethnic bases. I'm not passing a moral judgement here really, but it is perhaps something else to discuss.
I was basically going to come back and say this, so instead of saying it, I will simply agree vehemently:
THIS THIS THIS.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 21, 2013, 07:27:30 PM
Quote from: Wolfgang Absolutus on June 21, 2013, 07:26:00 PM
Why hire a black actor to do something when you could get a racial monkey wrench like Armisen to do it.
A what, now?
Someone racially "adjustable". Like a monkey wrench.
Quote from: stelz on June 21, 2013, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: The Twid on June 21, 2013, 05:35:29 PM
As far as the acting thing goes its not like the actress playing uhura is putting on facepaint for the role. For native americans a lot of them also have european ancestry so what percentage of background is acceptable? What about antonio banderas playing an arab?
The 13th Warrior was an exercise in suck, anyway. :lulz:
I'd stay away from the blood quantum thing, for the most part. The thing with Depp is, as a casual observer I've never seen him particularly involved with Native things on any level, and now that he's playing Tonto he's got "ancestry".
I'm not particularly involved with Native things, other than walking around being Native all the time and occasionally high-fiving with other Natives. Because that's totally a thing we do.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on June 21, 2013, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: stelz on June 21, 2013, 05:51:50 PM
Quote from: The Twid on June 21, 2013, 05:35:29 PM
As far as the acting thing goes its not like the actress playing uhura is putting on facepaint for the role. For native americans a lot of them also have european ancestry so what percentage of background is acceptable? What about antonio banderas playing an arab?
The 13th Warrior was an exercise in suck, anyway. :lulz:
I'd stay away from the blood quantum thing, for the most part. The thing with Depp is, as a casual observer I've never seen him particularly involved with Native things on any level, and now that he's playing Tonto he's got "ancestry".
I'm not particularly involved with Native things, other than walking around being Native all the time and occasionally high-fiving with other Natives. Because that's totally a thing we do.
:lol:
I think "Native all the time" is key here. I never HEARD about any ancestry or adoption - or anything - in connection with Depp until this movie started happening.
So maybe it was "all the time" and nobody bothered to notice*, which would be sad, but it happens. Or maybe it's all something that was started because of this movie, which would be squick.
ETA: *In spite of Depp being in the public eye forever and every OTHER little detail being duly reported on.
This McSweeney pretty much says everything I was thinking: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-open-letter-to-johnny-depps-tonto
It happened, according to Wikipedia, after he landed the role. Basically, the Comanche chief or leader or spokesperson or whatever wanted to hitch their flag to Depp for the purposes of....I dunno, greater publicity or something? Improved media access? Whatever. Anyway, the sequence of events was: get the role -> honourary adoption.
You can't really NOT walk around being Native all the time if you're Native. It's not like I can just stop being Native or Black or one of those weird little dwarf viking peace freaks from that cluster of islands in Northern Scotland.
It just isn't relevant most of the time, so it doesn't come up. It's not like I greet people with "How" and wear feathers in my hair. Ever. I mean, how much time out of the day do you spend thinking or talking about being white? I probably spend marginally more time than that thinking or talking about being not-white, because it's not the default so it tends to directly impact me in tangible ways more often, but it still isn't a whole lot of time.
Seriously, that would be pretty weird, if I just walked around being all "here I am, on my way to the store being mixed-race Native and Black" "Now here I am, getting chicken and rice bowl at the food carts, in a mixed-race fashion. I will eat it with a plastic fork, as is the way of my people".
It's more of a passive thing, really.
QuoteI will eat it with a plastic fork, as is the way of my people
That's CULTURAL APPROPRIATION.
Quote from: Cain on June 21, 2013, 11:25:50 PM
It happened, according to Wikipedia, after he landed the role. Basically, the Comanche chief or leader or spokesperson or whatever wanted to hitch their flag to Depp for the purposes of....I dunno, greater publicity or something? Improved media access? Whatever. Anyway, the sequence of events was: get the role -> honourary adoption.
Indian tribes very often honorarily adopt people who work closely with them for a period of time. It's a thing.
Quote from: Cain on June 21, 2013, 11:31:34 PM
QuoteI will eat it with a plastic fork, as is the way of my people
That's CULTURAL APPROPRIATION.
YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT'S IN MY HEART, MUGGLE!
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on June 21, 2013, 11:31:55 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 21, 2013, 11:25:50 PM
It happened, according to Wikipedia, after he landed the role. Basically, the Comanche chief or leader or spokesperson or whatever wanted to hitch their flag to Depp for the purposes of....I dunno, greater publicity or something? Improved media access? Whatever. Anyway, the sequence of events was: get the role -> honourary adoption.
Indian tribes very often honorarily adopt people who work closely with them for a period of time. It's a thing.
Oh yeah, that's true. Depp's a method actor, something I keep forgetting. He's probably being hanging around and asking questions a lot. That + the publicity makes a little more sense.
Epidemiologist up at OHSU worked with the Warm Springs on a project quantifying the relative level of risk of eating their traditional diet including a lot of salmon contaminated with PCBs, vs. adopting Western dietary practices (it turns out that you should eat the contaminated salmon, seriously, it's WAY less bad for you) so they adopted him. And his research assistant.
Go near a reservation and odds are pretty high that, if they weren't already tribe members, they've ceremonially adopted their doctor, schoolteacher, and the mechanic just outside of town.
I mean, some tribe adopted Kevin Costner.
Thats kind of a neat custom. Understandable too. Its more of a part of the community thing.
Quote from: The Twid on June 21, 2013, 11:40:17 PM
Thats kind of a neat custom. Understandable too. Its more of a part of the community thing.
Yeah, I think it's sort of just ritualizing making someone a member of the community. It happens everywhere, there just isn't usually a ritual attached to it.
Of course, the fact that there's a ritual attached to it is reflective of a pretty fucked-up racist colonial history of ongoing race-based policies that are expressly designed to effect genocide, but hey.
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 21, 2013, 11:06:13 AM
i have enough trouble figuring out MY OWN mixed culture, not only the ones provided by my "different race" parents but the cultures of the ethnicities and of the individuals that i incorporated so far in my life.
PS- Not accepting the term "race" as a genetic thing does not mean that i don't think racism exists - that would be ridiculous indeed.
:tldr:
Again, race is a social construct.
It's a social reality.
It has real social penalties if you aren't the privileged race.
Examples...
In England, Indian people are considered black.
In the US, they are generally considered white.
In Japan, if you ain't Japanese, you ain't shit.
I am told Han Chinese discriminate against those who are not Han.
Korea too-people of non Korean ancestry are considered ugly foreigners, not welcome.
In the US, white skin privilege is a real thing.
That doesn't mean actually being white is a real thing.
QuoteOne-third of white Americans, according to some tests, will possess between two and 20 per cent African genes. The majority of black Americans have some European ancestors.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jul/15/usa.genetics
According to the old "one-drop" laws, that would make up to 33% of "white" people black. But they appear white, and think of themselves as white.
Social construct.
Real on the social level, false on the genetic level...
Saying "I don't see race," Is a really tone-deaf thing to say, if that makes any sense, and we should probably Not Go There.
...And all this has nothing to do with actors playing characters, or getting inducted into First Nations tribes, so I'll drop it.
Wouldn't it be more demeaning for a Native American to play Tonto anyway? Maybe something akin to a real black minstrel act? Just a thought.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on June 21, 2013, 11:37:32 PM
Epidemiologist up at OHSU worked with the Warm Springs on a project quantifying the relative level of risk of eating their traditional diet including a lot of salmon contaminated with PCBs, vs. adopting Western dietary practices (it turns out that you should eat the contaminated salmon, seriously, it's WAY less bad for you) so they adopted him. And his research assistant.
Go near a reservation and odds are pretty high that, if they weren't already tribe members, they've ceremonially adopted their doctor, schoolteacher, and the mechanic just outside of town.
I mean, some tribe adopted Kevin Costner.
:horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth:
Quote from: Bu☆ns on June 22, 2013, 04:30:25 AM
Wouldn't it be more demeaning for a Native American to play Tonto anyway? Maybe something akin to a real black minstrel act? Just a thought.
Yeah. He was essentially Step'n Fetchit with tracking skillz, IIRC.
Quote from: Cain on June 21, 2013, 11:25:50 PM
It happened, according to Wikipedia, after he landed the role. Basically, the Comanche chief or leader or spokesperson or whatever wanted to hitch their flag to Depp for the purposes of....I dunno, greater publicity or something? Improved media access? Whatever. Anyway, the sequence of events was: get the role -> honourary adoption.
Look how this fits into the timeline http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/w0012381.html
Quote from: stelz on June 22, 2013, 04:47:35 AM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on June 21, 2013, 11:37:32 PM
Epidemiologist up at OHSU worked with the Warm Springs on a project quantifying the relative level of risk of eating their traditional diet including a lot of salmon contaminated with PCBs, vs. adopting Western dietary practices (it turns out that you should eat the contaminated salmon, seriously, it's WAY less bad for you) so they adopted him. And his research assistant.
Go near a reservation and odds are pretty high that, if they weren't already tribe members, they've ceremonially adopted their doctor, schoolteacher, and the mechanic just outside of town.
I mean, some tribe adopted Kevin Costner.
:horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth:
I had an interesting FB convo with Twidsister a couple of months ago.
She mentioned "Wind That Shakes the Barley" and something something about it being classified as a British movie even though it was about Irish Republicanism.
I pointed out that both the writer and the director were both British nationals, and therefore it was in fact a British film.
She felt foolish and deleted the thread (she's 16). I thought it was good. Not the least of which, I may have killed a bit of prejudice in her. Even if the entire cast was British, well, good on the actors. It's not exactly a comfortable topic. I thought that it was excellent that two subjects of the Queen saw fit to tell a story that said, "We were dicks"
The British left has long had the same conclusions as the Irish republicans - that Northern Ireland is a British colony, as part of a project to dominate and extricate wealth from Ireland as part of a standard pattern of colonial conquest and exploitation.
They may not be keen on the armed struggle, but, well, there was a reason why Blair, who in every other respect was a violent neoimperialist, was the one to negotiate the power-sharing agreement on Good Friday. Labour Party pressure and Clinton's desire for Irish lovin' a legacy, anyway.
Dammit Cain, now I hear Clinton's voice in my head asking if the carpet matches the curtains. :lulz:
hylierandom, great "emoticon"! :lulz: Well, that first sentence of mine that ended up in an irrelevant conversation was my poorly aimed attempt to be funny - as was the generalisations thing..o well, i fully agree with everything and i drop it too :)
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on June 21, 2013, 11:31:55 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 21, 2013, 11:25:50 PM
It happened, according to Wikipedia, after he landed the role. Basically, the Comanche chief or leader or spokesperson or whatever wanted to hitch their flag to Depp for the purposes of....I dunno, greater publicity or something? Improved media access? Whatever. Anyway, the sequence of events was: get the role -> honourary adoption.
Indian tribes very often honorarily adopt people who work closely with them for a period of time. It's a thing.
It's a
great thing, i didn't know that! :)
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 23, 2013, 06:08:38 PM
hylierandom, great "emoticon"! :lulz: Well, that first sentence of mine that ended up in an irrelevant conversation was my poorly aimed attempt to be funny - as was the generalisations thing..o well, i fully agree with everything and i drop it too :)
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on June 21, 2013, 11:31:55 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 21, 2013, 11:25:50 PM
It happened, according to Wikipedia, after he landed the role. Basically, the Comanche chief or leader or spokesperson or whatever wanted to hitch their flag to Depp for the purposes of....I dunno, greater publicity or something? Improved media access? Whatever. Anyway, the sequence of events was: get the role -> honourary adoption.
Indian tribes very often honorarily adopt people who work closely with them for a period of time. It's a thing.
It's a great thing, i didn't know that! :)
What's great about it? :?
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on June 23, 2013, 07:13:22 PM
Quote from: GrannySmith on June 23, 2013, 06:08:38 PM
hylierandom, great "emoticon"! :lulz: Well, that first sentence of mine that ended up in an irrelevant conversation was my poorly aimed attempt to be funny - as was the generalisations thing..o well, i fully agree with everything and i drop it too :)
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on June 21, 2013, 11:31:55 PM
Quote from: Cain on June 21, 2013, 11:25:50 PM
It happened, according to Wikipedia, after he landed the role. Basically, the Comanche chief or leader or spokesperson or whatever wanted to hitch their flag to Depp for the purposes of....I dunno, greater publicity or something? Improved media access? Whatever. Anyway, the sequence of events was: get the role -> honourary adoption.
Indian tribes very often honorarily adopt people who work closely with them for a period of time. It's a thing.
It's a great thing, i didn't know that! :)
What's great about it? :?
"
Great thing", "great "emoticon"", not sure what to make of all that either...
English isn't, as far as I'm aware, GrannySmith's first language.
Quote from: Cain on June 23, 2013, 11:34:00 PM
English isn't, as far as I'm aware, GrannySmith's first language.
Ah OK, that makes more sense then.
True, english is not my first language! By "it's great" I mean "I like that" if that makes more sense :)
What i like about honorary adoption is that (i think) it implies a definition of "tribe" that is not only genetic. I like that a lot.
The emoticon i thought it was funny :)