http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/23/19644154-nbcwsj-poll-faith-in-dc-hits-a-low-83-percent-disapprove-of-congress?lite
This article clearly describes why America is retarded. It is not the government, incidentally, or either political party.
Everybody is blaming somebody else for their mistakes.
We the people voted these assholes in, and now we're wondering what's going wrong.
The zimmerman bit?
QuoteBut there's a twist: Two-thirds of self-described liberals believe the court is too conservative, and nearly seven-in-10 self-described conservatives see it as too liberal.
Why is this a "twist"?
This isn't very hilarious, just confusing.
Quote from: Suu on July 24, 2013, 05:52:40 PM
Everybody is blaming somebody else for their mistakes.
We the people voted these assholes in, and now we're wondering what's going wrong.
DING DING DING.
Also, we're demanding that they stop fucking around, and start fucking around. :lulz:
I used to fight it when the Dok said individuals could be rational but groups couldn't be... I should have listened. Over and over again I should have listened. It's so fucking clear its like Delta Burke splashed across a windscreen. Not sure how I missed it.
It reminds me of the uncontrollable urge to view our own feces... my feces, my feces is a work of art, but YOURS... yours is disgusting shit. Is that similar? Probably not... but it feels like it correlates to me, and really... nowadays, feelings are all that matter, right? Not funny things like, oh... FACTS. Facts are suspect.
I felt like I had a point when I hit "reply".
Quote from: Hoopla on July 24, 2013, 06:57:41 PM
I used to fight it when the Dok said individuals could be rational but groups couldn't be... I should have listened. Over and over again I should have listened. It's so fucking clear its like Delta Burke splashed across a windscreen. Not sure how I missed it.
It reminds me of the uncontrollable urge to view our own feces... my feces, my feces is a work of art, but YOURS... yours is disgusting shit. Is that similar? Probably not... but it feels like it correlates to me, and really... nowadays, feelings are all that matter, right? Not funny things like, oh... FACTS. Facts are suspect.
I felt like I had a point when I hit "reply".
It's really simple, Hoops. We're going to take those OTHER guys and send them home with a fucking rupture. We're going to SHOW THEM ALL. We never stop to consider that there's more to the legislative process than what is essentially internet flame wars & trolling.
Arizona has pioneered this, and now the rest of America has it. You'll have it soon, too.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 07:05:15 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on July 24, 2013, 06:57:41 PM
I used to fight it when the Dok said individuals could be rational but groups couldn't be... I should have listened. Over and over again I should have listened. It's so fucking clear its like Delta Burke splashed across a windscreen. Not sure how I missed it.
It reminds me of the uncontrollable urge to view our own feces... my feces, my feces is a work of art, but YOURS... yours is disgusting shit. Is that similar? Probably not... but it feels like it correlates to me, and really... nowadays, feelings are all that matter, right? Not funny things like, oh... FACTS. Facts are suspect.
I felt like I had a point when I hit "reply".
It's really simple, Hoops. We're going to take those OTHER guys and send them home with a fucking rupture. We're going to SHOW THEM ALL. We never stop to consider that there's more to the legislative process than what is essentially internet flame wars & trolling.
Arizona has pioneered this, and now the rest of America has it. You'll have it soon, too.
If not already... Canada is circling the bowl, just like everywhere else.
Quote from: Hoopla on July 24, 2013, 07:15:44 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 07:05:15 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on July 24, 2013, 06:57:41 PM
I used to fight it when the Dok said individuals could be rational but groups couldn't be... I should have listened. Over and over again I should have listened. It's so fucking clear its like Delta Burke splashed across a windscreen. Not sure how I missed it.
It reminds me of the uncontrollable urge to view our own feces... my feces, my feces is a work of art, but YOURS... yours is disgusting shit. Is that similar? Probably not... but it feels like it correlates to me, and really... nowadays, feelings are all that matter, right? Not funny things like, oh... FACTS. Facts are suspect.
I felt like I had a point when I hit "reply".
It's really simple, Hoops. We're going to take those OTHER guys and send them home with a fucking rupture. We're going to SHOW THEM ALL. We never stop to consider that there's more to the legislative process than what is essentially internet flame wars & trolling.
Arizona has pioneered this, and now the rest of America has it. You'll have it soon, too.
If not already... Canada is circling the bowl, just like everywhere else.
No, see, I go to Canada pretty frequently, and you guys are sane. So the level of weirdness you are experiencing SEEMS horrendous. To properly understand the forces at work HERE, you have to BE here. Reading about it or watching it on TV is like watching Private Ryan and assuming you have a good feel for the Normandy landings.
It's actually insane, Hoops, and the most horrormirthy part about it is that we have become so acclimatized to it that it has become PREDICTABLE or at least NOT SURPRISING. We hear another legislator harping about how women's reproductive rights are the same as the Boston Bombing, and we just giggle a bit.
I suspect the UK is the same way, but I don't ever go there, so I don't know.
That bit about the women's reproductive rights isn't hyperbole, by the way. Wendy Davis has been branded a "terrorist" for opposing the new Texas bill.
Not compared to one. Directly called one, by the rest of the Texas legislature.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 07:19:28 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on July 24, 2013, 07:15:44 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 07:05:15 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on July 24, 2013, 06:57:41 PM
I used to fight it when the Dok said individuals could be rational but groups couldn't be... I should have listened. Over and over again I should have listened. It's so fucking clear its like Delta Burke splashed across a windscreen. Not sure how I missed it.
It reminds me of the uncontrollable urge to view our own feces... my feces, my feces is a work of art, but YOURS... yours is disgusting shit. Is that similar? Probably not... but it feels like it correlates to me, and really... nowadays, feelings are all that matter, right? Not funny things like, oh... FACTS. Facts are suspect.
I felt like I had a point when I hit "reply".
It's really simple, Hoops. We're going to take those OTHER guys and send them home with a fucking rupture. We're going to SHOW THEM ALL. We never stop to consider that there's more to the legislative process than what is essentially internet flame wars & trolling.
Arizona has pioneered this, and now the rest of America has it. You'll have it soon, too.
If not already... Canada is circling the bowl, just like everywhere else.
No, see, I go to Canada pretty frequently, and you guys are sane. So the level of weirdness you are experiencing SEEMS horrendous. To properly understand the forces at work HERE, you have to BE here. Reading about it or watching it on TV is like watching Private Ryan and assuming you have a good feel for the Normandy landings.
It's actually insane, Hoops, and the most horrormirthy part about it is that we have become so acclimatized to it that it has become PREDICTABLE or at least NOT SURPRISING. We hear another legislator harping about how women's reproductive rights are the same as the Boston Bombing, and we just giggle a bit.
I suspect the UK is the same way, but I don't ever go there, so I don't know.
Well that was a level of horror I wasn't prepared to digest today.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 07:21:09 PM
That bit about the women's reproductive rights isn't hyperbole, by the way. Wendy Davis has been branded a "terrorist" for opposing the new Texas bill.
Not compared to one. Directly called one, by the rest of the Texas legislature.
Yeah I saw one of them tweeted that a terrorist was interrupting the democratic process, or some shit like that.
Quote from: Hoopla on July 24, 2013, 07:22:34 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 07:21:09 PM
That bit about the women's reproductive rights isn't hyperbole, by the way. Wendy Davis has been branded a "terrorist" for opposing the new Texas bill.
Not compared to one. Directly called one, by the rest of the Texas legislature.
Yeah I saw one of them tweeted that a terrorist was interrupting the democratic process, or some shit like that.
Yes, because "interrupting the democratic process" now means anything other than "getting the rubber stamp out".
No shit.
The Obama administration has attempted to read the riot act to a congressman, for suggesting that the NSA might have better things to do than to listen in on our phone conversations.
So it's not just one party anymore. The system is so off balance that the horror cascades along no matter WHO is in. It's self-generating, now.
WOOOO WOOOOOOOOOO!
Quote from: Hoopla on July 24, 2013, 07:21:51 PM
Well that was a level of horror I wasn't prepared to digest today.
Further proof that you are Canadian.
WE, sir, are up for
any program!ETA: Or pogrom.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: Suu on July 24, 2013, 05:52:40 PM
Everybody is blaming somebody else for their mistakes.
We the people voted these assholes in, and now we're wondering what's going wrong.
DING DING DING.
Also, we're demanding that they stop fucking around, and start fucking around. :lulz:
The "democracy" we're offered is the problem. We are only given the option to vote for whoever is groomed and presented to us by big money sponsorship, so we can hardly blame the voters when the bastards who run are the bastards that get in, now can we? Because the third option is not to vote, and oh my do I remember a shitstorm when I announced that I wasn't voting.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, because the process itself is fucked, and no matter who you vote for, you end up with a creep, a shill, or a charlatan in office.
There are a very, very few exceptions, but for the most part, all politicians have their primary allegiance with Capitalism, which means that their motives are to "boost the economy" by increasing revenue flow to the richest at the expense of everyone else.
(http://staging.hq.isafe.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/spn_names.png)
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 24, 2013, 07:26:31 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: Suu on July 24, 2013, 05:52:40 PM
Everybody is blaming somebody else for their mistakes.
We the people voted these assholes in, and now we're wondering what's going wrong.
DING DING DING.
Also, we're demanding that they stop fucking around, and start fucking around. :lulz:
The "democracy" we're offered is the problem. We are only given the option to vote for whoever is groomed and presented to us by big money sponsorship, so we can hardly blame the voters when the bastards who run are the bastards that get in, now can we? Because the third option is not to vote, and oh my do I remember a shitstorm when I announced that I wasn't voting.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, because the process itself is fucked, and no matter who you vote for, you end up with a creep, a shill, or a charlatan in office.
There are a very, very few exceptions, but for the most part, all politicians have their primary allegiance with Capitalism, which means that their motives are to "boost the economy" by increasing revenue flow to the richest at the expense of everyone else.
The funny part about that is, what they're doing is AWFUL for capitalism. Worst thing that ever happened to capitalism was the fall of communism, I say.
Anyway, it's not about politicians. As I said above, the horror has become self-generating; the level of insanity in the United States has reached the point where the craziest idea is best, and the poll linked in the OP shows that. They all want congress to function, but then say that the things they want it to do are the SAME THINGS THAT GOT US WHERE WE ARE NOW.
It's the population that's insane, Nigel. The politicians are just a display on the thermometer. Increasingly, this is also true of our "Captains of Industry".
I mean, look around; Capitalism has become SO BLOATED that it is now indistinguishable from Soviet Communism in 1985.
We don't have to wait in line for toilet paper, this is true...We just can't afford it.
We don't burn books - or "offensive" magazine covers - we just take them off the shelves.
We don't have secret arrests and trials...Um, wait. Yeah, we do.
We don't have secret police. Wait, sorry, I was all 20th century for a moment there.
We don't have a politburo. Instead, we have a completely ineffectual congress.
Our leaders and captains of industry drive Western automobiles. We have Zils. Our leaders eat caviar, we hope there are enough potatos.
I'm happy to be a kulak. True capitalism in our lifetime!
The above begs a rewrite of Yakov Smirnoff's routine.
In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!
Or something. There's jokes here, lots of them.
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
The above begs a rewrite of Yakov Smirnoff's routine.
In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!
Or something. There's jokes here, lots of them.
I GOT SO MANY JOKES, I DON'T WANT TO WRITE ANY MORE STORIES. BECAUSE THEY ALL COME TRUE.
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!
Yeah, the American public was just asking for it over the course of 30 years and the wealthy elite quietly and steadily complied. There was nothing predatory, systematic, or conspiratorial about it, and if there was, it was mostly the fault of the people harmed by it. Hmmm...
:roll:
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!
Yeah, the American public was just asking for it over the course of 30 years and the wealthy elite quietly and steadily complied. There was nothing predatory, systematic, or conspiratorial about it, and if there was, it was mostly the fault of the people harmed by it. Hmmm...
:roll:
Who screamed to be protected - made "safe" - at all costs?
Who screamed for the government to "get tough on crime"?
Who supported the bizarre invasion of Iraq with an 81-87% majority?
Who calls bank reform "communism"?
(fun fact: http://www.gallup.com/poll/127448/Banking-Reform-Sells-Better-Wall-Street-Mentioned.aspx 43% of Americans oppose bank reform)
Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.
Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!
Yeah, the American public was just asking for it over the course of 30 years and the wealthy elite quietly and steadily complied. There was nothing predatory, systematic, or conspiratorial about it, and if there was, it was mostly the fault of the people harmed by it. Hmmm...
:roll:
There's almost an argument for exactly that really. If you don't stop someone fucking you over, you will get fucked over.
Also, yes. That's exactly what I said. You've totally not had an understanding bypass of the joke at all.
ETA - Yes. Madonna drinks Coke and you can too. It's all about the aspiration and thinking that you're making a positive choice while shitting your pants.
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
The above begs a rewrite of Yakov Smirnoff's routine.
In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!
Or something. There's jokes here, lots of them.
:lulz: :horrormirth: :lulz: :horrormirth:
As I can tell you very well, just because something ain't your fault, doesn't mean it's not your problem.
And life's not fair, so you get to fix problems that aren't your fault...that's just the way it fucking is.
...I think we've been denying that our country, our culture, our society is a collective endeavor for long enough that it's all gone to shit.
Personal responsibility is good, but that doesn't mean there's no such thing as COLLECTIVE responsibility.
Part of our electorate denies there IS such a thing!
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:16:38 PM
Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.
Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.
What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?
What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 07:29:46 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 24, 2013, 07:26:31 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: Suu on July 24, 2013, 05:52:40 PM
Everybody is blaming somebody else for their mistakes.
We the people voted these assholes in, and now we're wondering what's going wrong.
DING DING DING.
Also, we're demanding that they stop fucking around, and start fucking around. :lulz:
The "democracy" we're offered is the problem. We are only given the option to vote for whoever is groomed and presented to us by big money sponsorship, so we can hardly blame the voters when the bastards who run are the bastards that get in, now can we? Because the third option is not to vote, and oh my do I remember a shitstorm when I announced that I wasn't voting.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, because the process itself is fucked, and no matter who you vote for, you end up with a creep, a shill, or a charlatan in office.
There are a very, very few exceptions, but for the most part, all politicians have their primary allegiance with Capitalism, which means that their motives are to "boost the economy" by increasing revenue flow to the richest at the expense of everyone else.
The funny part about that is, what they're doing is AWFUL for capitalism. Worst thing that ever happened to capitalism was the fall of communism, I say.
Anyway, it's not about politicians. As I said above, the horror has become self-generating; the level of insanity in the United States has reached the point where the craziest idea is best, and the poll linked in the OP shows that. They all want congress to function, but then say that the things they want it to do are the SAME THINGS THAT GOT US WHERE WE ARE NOW.
It's the population that's insane, Nigel. The politicians are just a display on the thermometer. Increasingly, this is also true of our "Captains of Industry".
I don't agree... I think the population has been slowly pushed into a situation of greater and greater stress, this is true, but greed by the those in power is the controlling factor, not the people demanding it. Eating what they're sold because policy-makers tell them it's what's good for them, true, but that's a slightly different story.
I have to go to work now, I'll jump back in later.
QuoteWhat are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?
Everything and nothing. That's the hilarity.
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:16:38 PM
Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.
Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.
What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?
What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?
Oh, they're guilty as sin. They've been using social engineering since Reagan's day, and very effectively. But to say that it is ALL their fault is to say that humans have no volition. Frankly, I can't decide which option is worse.
They sold it, but the American people bought it, in a decades-long fit of utter stupidity.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 07:38:19 PM
I mean, look around; Capitalism has become SO BLOATED that it is now indistinguishable from Soviet Communism in 1985.
We don't have to wait in line for toilet paper, this is true...We just can't afford it.
We don't burn books - or "offensive" magazine covers - we just take them off the shelves.
We don't have secret arrests and trials...Um, wait. Yeah, we do.
We don't have secret police. Wait, sorry, I was all 20th century for a moment there.
We don't have a politburo. Instead, we have a completely ineffectual congress.
Our leaders and captains of industry drive Western automobiles. We have Zils. Our leaders eat caviar, we hope there are enough potatos.
I'm happy to be a kulak. True capitalism in our lifetime!
Why you whine like dog who fur is too tight for its arsehole, hah? Is sound glorious to Enrico, is more and more like sweet homeland of Salazore every tuna smelling day! Rejoice faggots!
When Enrico first step foot onto Amerikan soil in year of 252 (1986 to you faggots), Lucille Ball say to him (she and me had on again off again sausage party for over 30 year... her speaking voice sound like Lambchop puppeto before Enrico come to call, yes.) that he would be disgust influence on Amerikan people and country, and slowly it turn into Salazore, as if by osmondis. Is truly beautiful, it bring tear to Enrico's glass eye.
So, question is... when Enrico can start roll razorwire onto beach?
Yours truly,
in good times and hairy,
your friend,
still waterproof after all these years,
Enrico.
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 08:28:38 PM
QuoteWhat are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?
Everything and nothing. That's the hilarity.
A man selling stolen goods is guilty. So is the man who buys it.
A man selling stolen goods back to the people he stole if from is guilty, the man who buys it back is just an IDIOT.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!
Yeah, the American public was just asking for it over the course of 30 years and the wealthy elite quietly and steadily complied. There was nothing predatory, systematic, or conspiratorial about it, and if there was, it was mostly the fault of the people harmed by it. Hmmm...
:roll:
Who screamed to be protected - made "safe" - at all costs?
Who screamed for the government to "get tough on crime"?
Who supported the bizarre invasion of Iraq with an 81-87% majority?
Who calls bank reform "communism"?
(fun fact: http://www.gallup.com/poll/127448/Banking-Reform-Sells-Better-Wall-Street-Mentioned.aspx 43% of Americans oppose bank reform)
You have to remember that every single one of those examples was backed by massively funded PR campaigns to influence public opinion, and advertising works. Even on smart people. Especially when they don't know it's advertising, but even when they do.
Quote from: Enrico Salazar on July 24, 2013, 08:29:39 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 07:38:19 PM
I mean, look around; Capitalism has become SO BLOATED that it is now indistinguishable from Soviet Communism in 1985.
We don't have to wait in line for toilet paper, this is true...We just can't afford it.
We don't burn books - or "offensive" magazine covers - we just take them off the shelves.
We don't have secret arrests and trials...Um, wait. Yeah, we do.
We don't have secret police. Wait, sorry, I was all 20th century for a moment there.
We don't have a politburo. Instead, we have a completely ineffectual congress.
Our leaders and captains of industry drive Western automobiles. We have Zils. Our leaders eat caviar, we hope there are enough potatos.
I'm happy to be a kulak. True capitalism in our lifetime!
Why you whine like dog whose fur is too tight for it's arsehole, hah? Is sound glorious to Enrico, is more and more like sweet homeland of Salazore every tuna smelling day! Rejoice faggots!
When Enrico first step foot onto Amerikan soil in year of 252 (1986 to you faggots), Lucille Ball say to him (she and me had one again off again sausage party for over 30 years... her speaking voice sound like Lambchop puppeto before Enrico came to call, yes.) that he would be disgusting influence on Amerikan people and country, and slowly it turn into Salazore, as if by osmondis. Is truly beautiful, it bring tear to Enrico's glass eye.
So, question is... when Enrico can start rolling razorwire onto beaches?
Yours truly,
in good times and hairy,
your friend,
still waterproof after all these years,
Enrico.
Enrico: He doesn't make an economic wasteland; he makes the economic wasteland
better.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 24, 2013, 08:30:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!
Yeah, the American public was just asking for it over the course of 30 years and the wealthy elite quietly and steadily complied. There was nothing predatory, systematic, or conspiratorial about it, and if there was, it was mostly the fault of the people harmed by it. Hmmm...
:roll:
Who screamed to be protected - made "safe" - at all costs?
Who screamed for the government to "get tough on crime"?
Who supported the bizarre invasion of Iraq with an 81-87% majority?
Who calls bank reform "communism"?
(fun fact: http://www.gallup.com/poll/127448/Banking-Reform-Sells-Better-Wall-Street-Mentioned.aspx 43% of Americans oppose bank reform)
You have to remember that every single one of those examples was backed by massively funded PR campaigns to influence public opinion, and advertising works. Even on smart people. Especially when they don't know it's advertising, but even when they do.
Yes, this is 169% true. See my above post. The people doing this are in fact guilty as sin.
But I know people who DON'T buy it. You. Net. Me. LMNO. Cain. Many, many others. I can't explain why some people buy it and some people don't, except for maybe the Nenslo Principle.
I used to think it was because the people that buy it are too exhausted from the treadmill to think, but that doesn't explain you, for example. You haven't stopped moving since I met you, and you are more often capable of thinking this shit through than I am.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 24, 2013, 08:26:48 PM
I don't agree... I think the population has been slowly pushed into a situation of greater and greater stress, this is true, but greed by the those in power is the controlling factor, not the people demanding it. Eating what they're sold because policy-makers tell them it's what's good for them, true, but that's a slightly different story.
I have to go to work now, I'll jump back in later.
I can buy that. But they're still eating it.
Enrico is back! You glorious faggot!
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:16:38 PM
Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.
Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.
What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?
What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?
Running a giant multigenerational confidence scheme.
Another thing: This recent wave of racism that's hit over the Zimmerman case is a shink-wrapped product sold to the public.
"It isn't YOU that ruined America. It wasn't you demanding a 20% return on your investments, it wasn't you demanding cheap crap, cheap. It wasn't you screeching about your 401K, or mistaking the stock market for the economy. It wasn't you standing there at your tea party, dipping tea bags in tea cups because you were afraid to break the park rules. It wasn't you masturbating publicly in the Occupy General Assembly, for the adoration of your fans. It wasn't you screeching about taxes that you don't actually pay. No, it was none of these things. It was a 17 year old boy in a hoodie, with his pockets full of Skittles and Arizona Ice Tea."
Fox News and Townhall.com are pushing this shit as hard as they can, with everyone from Allen West to Ann Coulter spewing raw sewage out of their mouths to whip up the 20% of America that desperately needs to hear these things. And that 20%, once they have received this validation, are very, very loud...Which makes people think it's the majority view.
Also, this utter shit:
http://www.examiner.com/article/trayvon-s-skittles-arizona-tea-and-something-called-purple-drank
Which ought to make RWHN happy.
ETA: Same site's next article: UFOs visit US Air Force in Florida
Also, quotes rashmanly.com and urbandictionary.com as sources.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on July 24, 2013, 08:35:58 PM
Enrico is back! You glorious faggot!
Is Enrico's decade, you fabulous slut.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 24, 2013, 08:30:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!
Yeah, the American public was just asking for it over the course of 30 years and the wealthy elite quietly and steadily complied. There was nothing predatory, systematic, or conspiratorial about it, and if there was, it was mostly the fault of the people harmed by it. Hmmm...
:roll:
Who screamed to be protected - made "safe" - at all costs?
Who screamed for the government to "get tough on crime"?
Who supported the bizarre invasion of Iraq with an 81-87% majority?
Who calls bank reform "communism"?
(fun fact: http://www.gallup.com/poll/127448/Banking-Reform-Sells-Better-Wall-Street-Mentioned.aspx 43% of Americans oppose bank reform)
You have to remember that every single one of those examples was backed by massively funded PR campaigns to influence public opinion, and advertising works. Even on smart people. Especially when they don't know it's advertising, but even when they do.
That advertising sticks though. Part of the value of massive brands is in the Awareness of the product to the general populace. It's embeded and generational as well I would guess to a large degree. Parents building positive associations at young ages (Fast food=treat) with certain brands will probably be passed on. I'd guess this could apply negatively as well, but those cases are much rarer.
I think what I'm getting at is there seems to be a large chunk of people who will not alter their opinions unless seriously shocking evidence is presented to them. In these instances (Twin towers=Islam bad for example) or any of those listed in the polls, these were hot topic news stories for some reason or other. Anything which gives an "unsafe" vibe automatically sets a lot of people into a very conservative mindset. A scared monkey seems easier to control and shape the opinions of than a calm, thinking monkey.
I would suggest a lot more people are actually much more conservative than they can comfortably admit to themselves which is why you get shit like this happening all the time. Look at Texas. Wasn't there some vote recently that would fuck over at least 50% of the people living there? Probably a bad example, but if that was up at a federal level again now, would you not be worried?
If it was open to some kind of mass vote where everyone gets a say on it, would you not be terrified?
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 08:47:17 PM
I would suggest a lot more people are actually much more conservative than they can comfortably admit to themselves which is why you get shit like this happening all the time
McCain and Palin were sort of betting on that, too.
So was Romney and the muppet.
I would in fact state that most Americans are terrified of the monster they created. They just don't know how to stop it. Meanwhile, the monster is being hyped by the media, because the media is part of the fucking monster in the first place.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:53:56 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 08:47:17 PM
I would suggest a lot more people are actually much more conservative than they can comfortably admit to themselves which is why you get shit like this happening all the time
McCain and Palin were sort of betting on that, too.
So was Romney and the muppet.
You know, I half wonder what would happen if one year the US election strategy was "Fuck EVERYWHERE else, just convince Ohio"
Probably not the path to power, but I'd be interested to see what the results would be. I doubt it'd be a total wipeout, left/right politics is probably one of the most ingrained things to people who intend to vote anyway.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:28:57 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:16:38 PM
Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.
Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.
What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?
What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?
Oh, they're guilty as sin. They've been using social engineering since Reagan's day, and very effectively. But to say that it is ALL their fault is to say that humans have no volition. Frankly, I can't decide which option is worse.
They sold it, but the American people bought it, in a decades-long fit of utter stupidity.
People aren't nearly as morally culpable for getting ripped off as the people running the scam.
I guess I don't understand the thinking behind why victims of fraud deserve remotely the same level of blame as the plutocratic scum that consciously and systematically takes people for everything they're worth.
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 09:04:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:28:57 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:16:38 PM
Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.
Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.
What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?
What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?
Oh, they're guilty as sin. They've been using social engineering since Reagan's day, and very effectively. But to say that it is ALL their fault is to say that humans have no volition. Frankly, I can't decide which option is worse.
They sold it, but the American people bought it, in a decades-long fit of utter stupidity.
People aren't nearly as morally culpable for getting ripped off as the people running the scam.
I guess I don't understand the thinking behind why victims of fraud deserve remotely the same level of blame as the plutocratic scum that consciously and systematically takes people for everything they're worth.
Sure. We are shouting past each other, here.
What I'm saying is that voting out or getting rid of any politician or even entire groups of politicians will not solve the problem in any meaningful way. The target audience here is the American public, and the weapons used by the opposition are memes, specifically "pre-rich" and "blame the minorities".
And they're damn effective. In all but a couple of West Coast cities, the Occupy movement was squashed like a bug (albeit with some help from junior league wannabe demagogues) by the media, the memes in that case being "HAW HAW, THEY'RE USING CORPORATE GOODS LIKE IPHONES TO HELP THEM PROTEST CORPORATIONS!" (which, as Nigel pointed out, is like criticizing a slave for running away in the pants his master provided), and "LOOK AT THESE FILTHY HIPPIES", and "OMG, THERE WAS A RAPE AT OCCUPY" (while true, this was - in context with the number of people involved in Occupy - the lowest rape rate of any population or organization in American history).
So if you want to fix things, you have to interfere at the point where communications pass from the people desseminating the memes to the American public. Occupy tried this, but failed for various reasons.
Because until you do that, there can be no reform of any lasting nature.
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 09:04:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:28:57 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:16:38 PM
Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.
Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.
What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?
What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?
Oh, they're guilty as sin. They've been using social engineering since Reagan's day, and very effectively. But to say that it is ALL their fault is to say that humans have no volition. Frankly, I can't decide which option is worse.
They sold it, but the American people bought it, in a decades-long fit of utter stupidity.
People aren't nearly as morally culpable for getting ripped off as the people running the scam.
I guess I don't understand the thinking behind why victims of fraud deserve remotely the same level of blame as the plutocratic scum that consciously and systematically takes people for everything they're worth.
Exactly.
You could blame them more for being dupes, but EVERYTHING is geared towards duping them.
The rich people have their own brain worm: "I earned this, I deserve this."
...They deserve it in the same way a tick deserves blood.
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 08:47:17 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 24, 2013, 08:30:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!
Yeah, the American public was just asking for it over the course of 30 years and the wealthy elite quietly and steadily complied. There was nothing predatory, systematic, or conspiratorial about it, and if there was, it was mostly the fault of the people harmed by it. Hmmm...
:roll:
Who screamed to be protected - made "safe" - at all costs?
Who screamed for the government to "get tough on crime"?
Who supported the bizarre invasion of Iraq with an 81-87% majority?
Who calls bank reform "communism"?
(fun fact: http://www.gallup.com/poll/127448/Banking-Reform-Sells-Better-Wall-Street-Mentioned.aspx 43% of Americans oppose bank reform)
You have to remember that every single one of those examples was backed by massively funded PR campaigns to influence public opinion, and advertising works. Even on smart people. Especially when they don't know it's advertising, but even when they do.
That advertising sticks though. Part of the value of massive brands is in the Awareness of the product to the general populace. It's embeded and generational as well I would guess to a large degree. Parents building positive associations at young ages (Fast food=treat) with certain brands will probably be passed on. I'd guess this could apply negatively as well, but those cases are much rarer.
I think what I'm getting at is there seems to be a large chunk of people who will not alter their opinions unless seriously shocking evidence is presented to them. In these instances (Twin towers=Islam bad for example) or any of those listed in the polls, these were hot topic news stories for some reason or other. Anything which gives an "unsafe" vibe automatically sets a lot of people into a very conservative mindset. A scared monkey seems easier to control and shape the opinions of than a calm, thinking monkey.
I would suggest a lot more people are actually much more conservative than they can comfortably admit to themselves which is why you get shit like this happening all the time. Look at Texas. Wasn't there some vote recently that would fuck over at least 50% of the people living there? Probably a bad example, but if that was up at a federal level again now, would you not be worried?
If it was open to some kind of mass vote where everyone gets a say on it, would you not be terrified?
Seeing what we've collectively done to ourselves is enough to almost question democracy (3 wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner). What I'd rather have in its place, I got no clue. Even an Irkan system where the tallest person on the planet is put in charge of everything seems like it might be better. Although we would totally find a way to fuck that up too.
I think there is plenty of blame to go around both with the haves and the have nots. However I do think that having a nation of people who work more hours than medieval serfs plays a role too. A lot of folks are just so damn happy to get off work and have a cigarette that they don't bring themselves to look too deeply at their beliefs.
And when they do get angry enough they look for a route of attack from a preapproved list. One of which is voting folks out of office.
Also you guys type really really fast. I'm not sure if this is topical. Long story short: Its all of our faults but some a lot more than others.
Quote from: McGrupp on July 24, 2013, 09:15:43 PM
Seeing what we've collectively done to ourselves is enough to almost question democracy (3 wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner). What I'd rather have in its place, I got no clue. Even an Irkan system where the tallest person on the planet is put in charge of everything seems like it might be better. Although we would totally find a way to fuck that up too.
Of course we would. It's an "easy answer", which is basically the same shit the extreme right pushes.
Oh, and for those of you in California, stop paying attention to your imploding economy, and worry about this shit:
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/23/19643715-prop-8-backers-refuse-to-give-up
This is another prong of the attack. Pick an unpopular sector of the public, and shit all over them, grunting and straining loud enough that everyone talks about THAT, and not what's being done to them.
In this particular case, screech about how prop 8 is still valid (read the article for a new definition of circular reasoning), to revive a dead argument against Gays, so that people get polarized by that issue.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 09:10:36 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 09:04:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:28:57 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:16:38 PM
Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.
Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.
What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?
What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?
Oh, they're guilty as sin. They've been using social engineering since Reagan's day, and very effectively. But to say that it is ALL their fault is to say that humans have no volition. Frankly, I can't decide which option is worse.
They sold it, but the American people bought it, in a decades-long fit of utter stupidity.
People aren't nearly as morally culpable for getting ripped off as the people running the scam.
I guess I don't understand the thinking behind why victims of fraud deserve remotely the same level of blame as the plutocratic scum that consciously and systematically takes people for everything they're worth.
Sure. We are shouting past each other, here.
What I'm saying is that voting out or getting rid of any politician or even entire groups of politicians will not solve the problem in any meaningful way. The target audience here is the American public, and the weapons used by the opposition are memes, specifically "pre-rich" and "blame the minorities".
And they're damn effective. In all but a couple of West Coast cities, the Occupy movement was squashed like a bug (albeit with some help from junior league wannabe demagogues) by the media, the memes in that case being "HAW HAW, THEY'RE USING CORPORATE GOODS LIKE IPHONES TO HELP THEM PROTEST CORPORATIONS!" (which, as Nigel pointed out, is like criticizing a slave for running away in the pants his master provided), and "LOOK AT THESE FILTHY HIPPIES", and "OMG, THERE WAS A RAPE AT OCCUPY" (while true, this was - in context with the number of people involved in Occupy - the lowest rape rate of any population or organization in American history).
So if you want to fix things, you have to interfere at the point where communications pass from the people desseminating the memes to the American public. Occupy tried this, but failed for various reasons.
Because until you do that, there can be no reform of any lasting nature.
So glad I bothered.
You know what? Fuck this noise. I'm out.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 09:10:36 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 09:04:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:28:57 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:16:38 PM
Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.
Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.
What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?
What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?
Oh, they're guilty as sin. They've been using social engineering since Reagan's day, and very effectively. But to say that it is ALL their fault is to say that humans have no volition. Frankly, I can't decide which option is worse.
They sold it, but the American people bought it, in a decades-long fit of utter stupidity.
People aren't nearly as morally culpable for getting ripped off as the people running the scam.
I guess I don't understand the thinking behind why victims of fraud deserve remotely the same level of blame as the plutocratic scum that consciously and systematically takes people for everything they're worth.
Sure. We are shouting past each other, here.
What I'm saying is that voting out or getting rid of any politician or even entire groups of politicians will not solve the problem in any meaningful way. The target audience here is the American public, and the weapons used by the opposition are memes, specifically "pre-rich" and "blame the minorities".
And they're damn effective. In all but a couple of West Coast cities, the Occupy movement was squashed like a bug (albeit with some help from junior league wannabe demagogues) by the media, the memes in that case being "HAW HAW, THEY'RE USING CORPORATE GOODS LIKE IPHONES TO HELP THEM PROTEST CORPORATIONS!" (which, as Nigel pointed out, is like criticizing a slave for running away in the pants his master provided), and "LOOK AT THESE FILTHY HIPPIES", and "OMG, THERE WAS A RAPE AT OCCUPY" (while true, this was - in context with the number of people involved in Occupy - the lowest rape rate of any population or organization in American history).
So if you want to fix things, you have to interfere at the point where communications pass from the people desseminating the memes to the American public. Occupy tried this, but failed for various reasons.
Because until you do that, there can be no reform of any lasting nature.
I agree with you here.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 09:29:37 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 09:10:36 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 09:04:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:28:57 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:16:38 PM
Fun thing is, the wealthy elite SOLD it, and the American people lined up to BUY it.
Mostly, I think, due to the "pre-rich" meme.
What socio-economic problem in America ISN'T the people's fault?
What are plutocrats and multi-national profiteers culpable FOR, if anything?
Oh, they're guilty as sin. They've been using social engineering since Reagan's day, and very effectively. But to say that it is ALL their fault is to say that humans have no volition. Frankly, I can't decide which option is worse.
They sold it, but the American people bought it, in a decades-long fit of utter stupidity.
People aren't nearly as morally culpable for getting ripped off as the people running the scam.
I guess I don't understand the thinking behind why victims of fraud deserve remotely the same level of blame as the plutocratic scum that consciously and systematically takes people for everything they're worth.
Sure. We are shouting past each other, here.
What I'm saying is that voting out or getting rid of any politician or even entire groups of politicians will not solve the problem in any meaningful way. The target audience here is the American public, and the weapons used by the opposition are memes, specifically "pre-rich" and "blame the minorities".
And they're damn effective. In all but a couple of West Coast cities, the Occupy movement was squashed like a bug (albeit with some help from junior league wannabe demagogues) by the media, the memes in that case being "HAW HAW, THEY'RE USING CORPORATE GOODS LIKE IPHONES TO HELP THEM PROTEST CORPORATIONS!" (which, as Nigel pointed out, is like criticizing a slave for running away in the pants his master provided), and "LOOK AT THESE FILTHY HIPPIES", and "OMG, THERE WAS A RAPE AT OCCUPY" (while true, this was - in context with the number of people involved in Occupy - the lowest rape rate of any population or organization in American history).
So if you want to fix things, you have to interfere at the point where communications pass from the people desseminating the memes to the American public. Occupy tried this, but failed for various reasons.
Because until you do that, there can be no reform of any lasting nature.
So glad I bothered.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 09:32:24 PM
You know what? Fuck this noise. I'm out.
:?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 09:32:24 PM
You know what? Fuck this noise. I'm out.
I don't think anyone's fundamentally disagreeing with you, Dok.
...Something I've noticed:
Assigning blame isn't fixing the problem. In fact, it's counterproductive a lot of the time.
They sold it. We collectively bought it.
That's not fixing it.
Assigning blame works for making sure it doesn't happen again...sometimes.
It wasn't disagreement.
It was the fact that I restated my argument 3 times, for a total of 4 statements. Each time, I was misunderstood, and more or less accused of blaming the victim. Each time I restated it to accomodate that, because I feel that it is important that we try to identify the mechanism by which the public is convinced to basically swallow poisonous feces and smile about it.
And when I had done, it was ignored. You can imagine my frustration.
In any case, we can either compete to see who is the most socially progressive ape, or we can try to figure out the exact mechanism by which intelligent people are convinced to accept this sort of shit.
I mean, the basic psychology isn't a mystery. The means of delivery is right there. We just have to stop screeching and posturing and look.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 10:09:15 PM
It wasn't disagreement.
It was the fact that I restated my argument 3 times, for a total of 4 statements. Each time, I was misunderstood, and more or less accused of blaming the victim. Each time I restated it to accomodate that, because I feel that it is important that we try to identify the mechanism by which the public is convinced to basically swallow poisonous feces and smile about it.
And when I had done, it was ignored. You can imagine my frustration.
Beg your pardon.
I have a partial answer, though: for a critical mass of people, TV constantly stimulates greed...or more specifically, wanting. Selfish wanting.
Those commercials aren't just the noise you put up with, oh no.
...Check this out.
I'm always finding good shit in the trash.
In fact I've not been dumpster-diving, because I currently just have enough shit.
People throw away good, useable items all the time.
...it's because they have been taught via every commercial they have ever seen or heard "Happiness comes in the form of stuff."
...So they keep buying stuff.
And then throwing it out, because it didn't actually make them happy.
Does that sound correct?
All these commercials stimulate, constantly, selfishness and greed.
The thing is, indulging in selfishness and greed really only makes full sociopaths happy.
The rest of us crave connection, not stuff.
We keep trying and failing to jam stuff into the hole left by our lack of connection.
That's part of it.
I'll think about more of it when I get back, I have to go get the Discord from the shop.
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on July 24, 2013, 10:03:06 PM
...Something I've noticed:
Assigning blame isn't fixing the problem. In fact, it's counterproductive a lot of the time.
They sold it. We collectively bought it.
That's not fixing it.
Assigning blame works for making sure it doesn't happen again...sometimes.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
They stole our houses, our schools, and our privacy, but I'm sure we can fix it as long as we don't hold them accountable.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 10:09:15 PM
It wasn't disagreement.
It was the fact that I restated my argument 3 times, for a total of 4 statements. Each time, I was misunderstood, and more or less accused of blaming the victim. Each time I restated it to accomodate that, because I feel that it is important that we try to identify the mechanism by which the public is convinced to basically swallow poisonous feces and smile about it.
And when I had done, it was ignored. You can imagine my frustration.
It wasn't ignored. I have other obligations and can't respond as quickly as I'd like to.
I do appreciate your persistence in making yourself clear.
And it did appear that you and Junkenstein were blaming the victim. I still don't know where he's coming from on this, but I'm glad you took the time to put it in a way that I can understand.
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 10:28:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 10:09:15 PM
It wasn't disagreement.
It was the fact that I restated my argument 3 times, for a total of 4 statements. Each time, I was misunderstood, and more or less accused of blaming the victim. Each time I restated it to accomodate that, because I feel that it is important that we try to identify the mechanism by which the public is convinced to basically swallow poisonous feces and smile about it.
And when I had done, it was ignored. You can imagine my frustration.
It wasn't ignored. I have other obligations and can't respond as quickly as I'd like to.
I do appreciate your persistence in making yourself clear.
And it did appear that you and Junkenstein were blaming the victim. I still don't know where he's coming from on this, but I'm glad you took the time to put it in a way that I can understand.
I'm not blaming society, so much as pointing out that society has been completely co-opted. To deny that society has become complicit in their own downfall is impossible, it is to ignore the world the way it really is. Instead, as I say, we should be trying to figure out HOW this complicity is being inculcated, and then to figure out a means to counteract it.
Occupy didn't work. There are reasons for that. If we don't drag those reasons out into the light of day, then we'll just keep attempting a failed effort.
The problem is, by even SAYING that, hackles go up because it is taken as "they didn't try" or "their hearts weren't in it", neither of which is true of the vast majority of the people involved. But the problem I have is that when I try to discuss this with anyone involved is that it is taken as WRONG because nobody wants to admit that a promising idea collapsed, because they feel - incorrectly - that it is a criticism of the members of Occupy, or that Occupy itself was meaningless.
ETA: There comes a time when you have to admit that failure, and analyze it. And then put a great big fucking rock in your fist for the next go-round.
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on July 24, 2013, 10:03:06 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 09:32:24 PM
You know what? Fuck this noise. I'm out.
I don't think anyone's fundamentally disagreeing with you, Dok.
...Something I've noticed:
Assigning blame isn't fixing the problem. In fact, it's counterproductive a lot of the time.
They sold it. We collectively bought it.
That's not fixing it.
Assigning blame works for making sure it doesn't happen again...sometimes.
Actually, failing to assign blame where it is due is not constructive at all.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 09:10:36 PM
So if you want to fix things, you have to interfere at the point where communications pass from the people desseminating the memes to the American public. Occupy tried this, but failed for various reasons.
Because until you do that, there can be no reform of any lasting nature.
Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand and it seems important.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:33:36 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 24, 2013, 08:30:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!
Yeah, the American public was just asking for it over the course of 30 years and the wealthy elite quietly and steadily complied. There was nothing predatory, systematic, or conspiratorial about it, and if there was, it was mostly the fault of the people harmed by it. Hmmm...
:roll:
Who screamed to be protected - made "safe" - at all costs?
Who screamed for the government to "get tough on crime"?
Who supported the bizarre invasion of Iraq with an 81-87% majority?
Who calls bank reform "communism"?
(fun fact: http://www.gallup.com/poll/127448/Banking-Reform-Sells-Better-Wall-Street-Mentioned.aspx 43% of Americans oppose bank reform)
You have to remember that every single one of those examples was backed by massively funded PR campaigns to influence public opinion, and advertising works. Even on smart people. Especially when they don't know it's advertising, but even when they do.
Yes, this is 169% true. See my above post. The people doing this are in fact guilty as sin.
But I know people who DON'T buy it. You. Net. Me. LMNO. Cain. Many, many others. I can't explain why some people buy it and some people don't, except for maybe the Nenslo Principle.
I used to think it was because the people that buy it are too exhausted from the treadmill to think, but that doesn't explain you, for example. You haven't stopped moving since I met you, and you are more often capable of thinking this shit through than I am.
The fnords lose their power once you can see them. I'm exhausted, but I'm very, very pissed off, and that's why I put so much energy into trying to learn to understand what's really going on, and how people work.
I think it's probably really important that I didn't go to school, after third grade, as a child, and when I did go to school I went to a hippie school that encouraged talking back. That means I completely avoided twelve years of conditioning that would have made it a lot harder to see bullshit when it's fed to me by an "authority".
In my experience, people who are very smart have an easier time with critical thinking and sorting through bullshit. That's a real blessing. But people who are tired, and conditioned, and within one or two standard deviations of average intelligence, are going to have a much, much harder time avoiding buying into the ad campaigns.
It wasn't the people who came up with Weapons of Mass Destruction, or the War on Drugs, or being Tough on Crime. Those were very, very engineered. We the People trust in our democracy, we trust our elected officials to represent and lead us, and our policy-makers to be acting in our best interests, so when we hear rhetoric on TV we look to see whether our officials support or reject the rhetoric. When they support it, we agree with it on opinion polls. When they reject it, we reject it on opinion polls.
It is important to not mistake the opinion polls for being the cause, rather than the outcome, of PR campaigns that shape public policy.
When the PR campaigns fail and we reject the policies our elected officials support, there becomes this disconnect between what the policy makers are doing and what the people are demanding. That's when you get low approval ratings, protests, and poll responses that seem internally contradictory. There are a lot of people who don't really know how to form a cogent argument for what they DO want, and they are waiting for someone else to articulate it so they can agree.
That part right there is where you and I come along with our loudmouth ideas. It's a dangerous fact of human nature, that most people would rather agree with someone else's ideas than come up with their own. That doesn't make them bad, but it does make them exploitable.
Quote from: McGrupp on July 24, 2013, 11:21:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 09:10:36 PM
So if you want to fix things, you have to interfere at the point where communications pass from the people desseminating the memes to the American public. Occupy tried this, but failed for various reasons.
Because until you do that, there can be no reform of any lasting nature.
Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand and it seems important.
In any communication network, there is the point at which the idea moves. Usually this is television, but the internet has also sped up the process, both by bombarding people with truisms, and by allowing private boards and pages where people huddle under blankets and sniff their own farts.
To disrupt communication is to disrupt the opposition, no matter what type of confict you are in. You can't attack the means of communication, because then you're just another domestic terrorist for the machine to dangle in front of the general population.
Instead, you have to figure out which point in the system is best for derailing, co-opting, or culture-jamming the message of your opponent.
And if Discordians can't do THAT, then we may as well hang it up. Being a walking glitch is more than just boasting about shit.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 24, 2013, 11:25:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:33:36 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 24, 2013, 08:30:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 24, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
In Democracy American, You vote to fuck Self in ass!
Yeah, the American public was just asking for it over the course of 30 years and the wealthy elite quietly and steadily complied. There was nothing predatory, systematic, or conspiratorial about it, and if there was, it was mostly the fault of the people harmed by it. Hmmm...
:roll:
Who screamed to be protected - made "safe" - at all costs?
Who screamed for the government to "get tough on crime"?
Who supported the bizarre invasion of Iraq with an 81-87% majority?
Who calls bank reform "communism"?
(fun fact: http://www.gallup.com/poll/127448/Banking-Reform-Sells-Better-Wall-Street-Mentioned.aspx 43% of Americans oppose bank reform)
You have to remember that every single one of those examples was backed by massively funded PR campaigns to influence public opinion, and advertising works. Even on smart people. Especially when they don't know it's advertising, but even when they do.
Yes, this is 169% true. See my above post. The people doing this are in fact guilty as sin.
But I know people who DON'T buy it. You. Net. Me. LMNO. Cain. Many, many others. I can't explain why some people buy it and some people don't, except for maybe the Nenslo Principle.
I used to think it was because the people that buy it are too exhausted from the treadmill to think, but that doesn't explain you, for example. You haven't stopped moving since I met you, and you are more often capable of thinking this shit through than I am.
The fnords lose their power once you can see them. I'm exhausted, but I'm very, very pissed off, and that's why I put so much energy into trying to learn to understand what's really going on, and how people work.
I think it's probably really important that I didn't go to school, after third grade, as a child, and when I did go to school I went to a hippie school that encouraged talking back. That means I completely avoided twelve years of conditioning that would have made it a lot harder to see bullshit when it's fed to me by an "authority".
In my experience, people who are very smart have an easier time with critical thinking and sorting through bullshit. That's a real blessing. But people who are tired, and conditioned, and within one or two standard deviations of average intelligence, are going to have a much, much harder time avoiding buying into the ad campaigns.
It wasn't the people who came up with Weapons of Mass Destruction, or the War on Drugs, or being Tough on Crime. Those were very, very engineered. We the People trust in our democracy, we trust our elected officials to represent and lead us, and our policy-makers to be acting in our best interests, so when we hear rhetoric on TV we look to see whether our officials support or reject the rhetoric. When they support it, we agree with it on opinion polls. When they reject it, we reject it on opinion polls.
It is important to not mistake the opinion polls for being the cause, rather than the outcome, of PR campaigns that shape public policy.
When the PR campaigns fail and we reject the policies our elected officials support, there becomes this disconnect between what the policy makers are doing and what the people are demanding. That's when you get low approval ratings, protests, and poll responses that seem internally contradictory. There are a lot of people who don't really know how to form a cogent argument for what they DO want, and they are waiting for someone else to articulate it so they can agree.
That part right there is where you and I come along with our loudmouth ideas. It's a dangerous fact of human nature, that most people would rather agree with someone else's ideas than come up with their own. That doesn't make them bad, but it does make them exploitable.
All very good points, especially your opening statement.
There's something important smacking me right in the face. Printing this off to look at it when people aren't hollering at me. There is, right now, a totally different set of monkey business going on in my immediate vicinity, which has more to do with tearing the bottom out of the lifeboat to make clubs to beat on people for disagreeing which direction the lifeboat should be pointed.
Specifically, Princess Lilly's temporary monarchy ends on Monday, and she has started trying to flex, at the expense of my crew. She wanted to suspend half of my crew today for coming off of break 5 minutes late, while at the same time asking why I can't do 3 extra projects.
We don't have time for this bullshit. We're stretched to the breaking point, and some vast and mighty forces in the company are watching our progress very closely at the moment, due to the compression of 5 years of expansions being compressed into 9 months.
So the obvious thing to do is start a fucking witch hunt to show how big the family jewels are.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 11:40:12 PM
Quote from: McGrupp on July 24, 2013, 11:21:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 09:10:36 PM
So if you want to fix things, you have to interfere at the point where communications pass from the people desseminating the memes to the American public. Occupy tried this, but failed for various reasons.
Because until you do that, there can be no reform of any lasting nature.
Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand and it seems important.
In any communication network, there is the point at which the idea moves. Usually this is television, but the internet has also sped up the process, both by bombarding people with truisms, and by allowing private boards and pages where people huddle under blankets and sniff their own farts.
To disrupt communication is to disrupt the opposition, no matter what type of confict you are in. You can't attack the means of communication, because then you're just another domestic terrorist for the machine to dangle in front of the general population.
Instead, you have to figure out which point in the system is best for derailing, co-opting, or culture-jamming the message of your opponent.
And if Discordians can't do THAT, then we may as well hang it up. Being a walking glitch is more than just boasting about shit.
I think that we already have, right here, a tremendously promising propaganda machine, and a huge part of disrupting communication is issuing ideas that will cause conflict with the ideas coming out of the establishment.
Because people like truisms so much, I like to make my own, but have them be true. Like, "kids these days are so much better than when I was a kid", for instance. People love this, they eat it up; people love to think of themselves as badasses, as punk kids, and those who were not punk kids remember those punk kids with resentment. So, most people agree almost reflexively, and then... you're in their brains as someone they agree with.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 11:40:12 PM
Quote from: McGrupp on July 24, 2013, 11:21:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 09:10:36 PM
So if you want to fix things, you have to interfere at the point where communications pass from the people desseminating the memes to the American public. Occupy tried this, but failed for various reasons.
Because until you do that, there can be no reform of any lasting nature.
Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand and it seems important.
In any communication network, there is the point at which the idea moves. Usually this is television, but the internet has also sped up the process, both by bombarding people with truisms, and by allowing private boards and pages where people huddle under blankets and sniff their own farts.
To disrupt communication is to disrupt the opposition, no matter what type of confict you are in. You can't attack the means of communication, because then you're just another domestic terrorist for the machine to dangle in front of the general population.
Instead, you have to figure out which point in the system is best for derailing, co-opting, or culture-jamming the message of your opponent.
And if Discordians can't do THAT, then we may as well hang it up. Being a walking glitch is more than just boasting about shit.
Ah, I see. Placing the monkey wrench in the right place. Thank you.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 10:40:49 PM
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 10:28:05 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2013, 10:09:15 PM
It wasn't disagreement.
It was the fact that I restated my argument 3 times, for a total of 4 statements. Each time, I was misunderstood, and more or less accused of blaming the victim. Each time I restated it to accomodate that, because I feel that it is important that we try to identify the mechanism by which the public is convinced to basically swallow poisonous feces and smile about it.
And when I had done, it was ignored. You can imagine my frustration.
It wasn't ignored. I have other obligations and can't respond as quickly as I'd like to.
I do appreciate your persistence in making yourself clear.
And it did appear that you and Junkenstein were blaming the victim. I still don't know where he's coming from on this, but I'm glad you took the time to put it in a way that I can understand.
I'm not blaming society, so much as pointing out that society has been completely co-opted. To deny that society has become complicit in their own downfall is impossible, it is to ignore the world the way it really is. Instead, as I say, we should be trying to figure out HOW this complicity is being inculcated, and then to figure out a means to counteract it.
Occupy didn't work. There are reasons for that. If we don't drag those reasons out into the light of day, then we'll just keep attempting a failed effort.
The problem is, by even SAYING that, hackles go up because it is taken as "they didn't try" or "their hearts weren't in it", neither of which is true of the vast majority of the people involved. But the problem I have is that when I try to discuss this with anyone involved is that it is taken as WRONG because nobody wants to admit that a promising idea collapsed, because they feel - incorrectly - that it is a criticism of the members of Occupy, or that Occupy itself was meaningless.
ETA: There comes a time when you have to admit that failure, and analyze it. And then put a great big fucking rock in your fist for the next go-round.
Society has definitely been complicit in it's own downfall and I do think it's absolutely vital to suss out precisely how that happens.
Occupy didn't have much direct effect on the problems it originally focused on, I agree. By that measure I'd admit it's a failure, but I don't view protests as a method in and of themselves to bring about change. They're a rallying point. A catalyst. A credible threat. Not the mechanism for the change itself.
Occupy did succeed in bringing disparate groups of people together and I'm still inspired by the diversity and number of voices I heard. If people don't feel that progress is viable they won't look for ways to make it happen and a self-fulfilling cycle of failure spins people into bitter apathy. There was that spark and initial momentum, you have to give Occupy that. CEO's were scrambling for concealed carry permits and personal body guards.
We all choked on the next steps though—what are the root causes and what are the most practical ways to address them? And then, perhaps even without much help from agent provocateurs or a hostile media narrative, the whole thing splintered into identity politics and pet topics.
My hypothesis about the dissolution of Occupy is that people did not have the time, intellectual perseverence, or humility to learn about the incredibly byzantine horrorshow we were protesting in the first place. Instead, many people who wanted protester "cred" more than actual change dropped the 99% slogans and reverted to the topics they felt knowledgable about.
Actually, based on a conversation with Kalera, I am for the moment backing off on the word "failed". More on this after I bounce it around in my head a bit.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 25, 2013, 03:20:58 AM
Actually, based on a conversation with Kalera, I am for the moment backing off on the word "failed". More on this after I bounce it around in my head a bit.
I am eager to see how you end up refining it. I think you have something good here, it just needs to be tweaked.
Net, what I aw was that Occupy got a lot of people involved, who then moved forward post-Occupy to work on specific points of reform, like healthcare, foreclosure assistance, ending prisons-for-profit, re-examining mandatory minimum sentencing, and affordable education. Some of those things we have seen movement on, and some of them I think will take several years to see movement on, but I am optimistic because people are working on them. The protests helped trigger rapid growth for the Working Families Party in Oregon and elsewhere, and I find that very encouraging.
Quote from: Net on July 24, 2013, 10:19:04 PM
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on July 24, 2013, 10:03:06 PM
...Something I've noticed:
Assigning blame isn't fixing the problem. In fact, it's counterproductive a lot of the time.
They sold it. We collectively bought it.
That's not fixing it.
Assigning blame works for making sure it doesn't happen again...sometimes.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
They stole our houses, our schools, and our privacy, but I'm sure we can fix it as long as we don't hold them accountable.
Nah, we SHOULD hold them accountable.
It's just that if we're too busy figuring out who's to blame, we're not fixing the problem...
(At this point my car is still fucking up and I don't know why, so I am taking a temporary vacation in a few VERY stiff drinks...and I DON'T DRINK...I have had this bottle of whiskey since LAST YEAR... )
Personally, my inner caveperson would love to go rampaging with a baseball bat and a 12-gauge right now, because my life is so fucking frustrating, and the reason it's fucking frustrating is
I'm not fucking making a fucking living wage while working 40 fucking hours a week.I'm not a greedy bastard, I don't want much for myself.
I just want to not constantly be running on duct tape and fucking adrenaline because I
am just barely scraping by.I want to be able to afford to call off work when I am really sick...right now my motto is "If I fall over, I can go home."
I want to actually be able to put my car in a shop and get it repaired by someone who knows what the hell they are doing.
I want to be able to do this, and pay rent...right now I live out in bumfuck Egypt because I get a free place this way.
That's right, I don't pay rent and I STILL CAN'T AFFORD TO HAVE MY FUCKING CAR FIXED...and
I make 3$ an hour over minimum wage.So while I know I have it way better than some, this is STILL fucked up.
What I meant was (shit, need more whiskey) what I meant was...
holding people accountable is part of the overall action of stopping it and making sure it doesn't happen again.It's subordinate to stopping it.
I thought Dok was blaming the victim, he wasn't.
He was looking for the mechanism of victimization.
Part of that's advertising, of course. Part of that's the old Horatio Alger bullshit, people think they TOO can be rich, and yanno what?
Nope. The creation of one ultra-rich person means that lots of other people have to be poor.
...Finite resources.
Capitalism presupposes infinite resources,
but we know that is a crock of shit.
In addendum, I would like to add, I love you all.
More than the Canadian Mist whiskey I am getting merrily sauced on.
I adore every fucking one of you.
You are all beautiful fuckers; never forget it.
Especially Nigel, who specializes in busting asses...because sometimes that's important.
Aw good goddamn, you people are out to pump me up tonight! Thank you. :)