Read this today about issues with feminism being exclusionary to newcomers which touches on a number of "WELL FINE I WON'T BE A FEMINIST IF YOU WON'T LET ME" issues that we've run into in conversations here.
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/10/09/guest-blog-reflections-on-contemporary-feminist-censuring/
So I'm thinking today about how to communicate feminist ideas and encourage communication of those ideas without tone policing or running afoul of the trope in which people rejecting the "women should know their place, be polite about things or shut up" meme are told to present their objections in a polite way or shut up.
My full response to the person who Faceblag'd this follows but contains a lot of hierarchy explanation which is already pretty well covered here. Also, I made a nod to PD but overstated the existence of hierarchy here to support my point (as well as making up what PD's purpose is). Don't freak out.
QuoteI think it's an issue you run into in any community/discipline. And excuse me if any of this long ramble accidentally mansplain feminist concepts, I'm trying to just focus on conflict within disciplines. As soon as a subject has enough specialist knowledge, jargon, memes which are only accessible to those who are well read on it, it becomes very easy for a hierarchy to emerge within it based on who knows, or seems to know, the most.
There are hierarchies in Atheism, hierarchies in Anarchism. I contribute to a community whose purpose is, superficially, to identify bias and status hierarchies and modify how we communicate ideas taking these into account and there's a "who is best at observing hierarchies" hierarchy.
Especially within intensely academic contexts, *it feels good to show that you know lots of stuff* and I think eventually it naturally follows that you can use things others don't know to highlight the knowledge you have which is extra valuable. You build a little collection of tidbits that you can share with people who don't have those facts in their collection. It's an adversarial way to interact with one another, but in most cases IRL that conflict is disguised under layers of civility. Less so on the internet. And this is where, I think, the appearance of knowledge becomes important because if you can effectively shut down another speaker on the subject, you can improve your perception of your own status and coax from your brain the pleasant chemicals which come along with that... and feminism has an arsenal of opportunities to tell someone they're using the wrong word or not taking an affected minority into consideration which, while very important subjects for education on, can also be used destructively.
Feminist discussion has had a lot of time to build up a history that newcomers may not be aware of. There are a number of feminist tropes which are based on common reactions to feminism and there's a danger that because the more educated party has dealt with these so many times and is well-learned on the reasons why certain reactions are inappropriate, for them to react with frustration at people who don't seem to get it because they aren't working with the same knowledge-base.
I think it's especially upsetting in feminism because criticisms based in "why didn't you already know this thing I know" ignore the fact that we're talking about a system which is largely invisible to those we're explaining it to and that if your first experience learning about the impact of this system is a hostile interaction on the internet, you're likely to be less receptive to it in future. There's the added complication of needing to be careful not to tell people who are negatively impacted by patriarchy every day to present their opinions of it in a user-friendly way. It's a matter of finding a balance between (totally justifiable) outrage and communicating the reasons for it to those for whom these effects aren't their lived experience.
Yep. Everyone is judged by the company the keep. When feminists create a caste system within themselves and also shit on women Feminism fails. I believe Roger said something about them being too busy smelling their own farts to care anymore.
Yes, there's that increasing status within the group concept again.
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 07:41:00 AM
Yep. Everyone is judged by the company the keep. When feminists create a caste system within themselves and also shit on women Feminism fails. I believe Roger said something about them being too busy smelling their own farts to care anymore.
I never bitched about feminists doing that. I bitched about zealots doing that, and the subject of their zealotry doesn't really matter. There's a light year of difference between Garbo and Nigel, for example.
Garbo is there to show the rest of the pack her enflamed ass.
Nigel is there to maybe not get shat on, and maybe have her daughters get shat on less than she was.
I'm there because I believe in a level playing field.
I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.
I don't know any actual feminists that act that way. I know lots of zealot hipsters that do, though.
You have bought the Rush Limbaugh definition of feminist.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.
I don't know any actual feminists that act that way. I know lots of zealot hipsters that do, though.
You have bought the Rush Limbaugh definition of feminist.
I have around my age. The ones who aren't are around the 15-21 age, or 30-40. Feels weird though. Watching the caste system in the group. OMG HOW CAN YOU NOT NOW THAT!
Isn't Rush's version of a feminist any woman who won't have sex with him?
Also a factor? Texas??
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:38:54 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.
I don't know any actual feminists that act that way. I know lots of zealot hipsters that do, though.
You have bought the Rush Limbaugh definition of feminist.
I have around my age. The ones who aren't are around the 15-21 age, or 30-40. Feels weird though. Watching the caste system in the group. OMG HOW CAN YOU NOT NOW THAT!
Isn't Rush's version of a feminist any woman who won't have sex with him?
Nope. Feminism = egalitarianism. Rush Limbaugh's definition: Castrating bitches who hate men. Which is kind of counter to the whole thing.
A woman wants equal pay for equal work. Your opinion?
-
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:45:30 PM
2.)Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.
How about, "experience being equal, no gap at all"?
1.)
Ok then I see it more clearly.
2.)Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.
Oh god damn it. Sorry for the misquoting, and deleting.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:47:19 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:45:30 PM
2.)Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.
How about, "experience being equal, no gap at all"?
Yes equal pay for sure.
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:45:30 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:41:18 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:38:54 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.
I don't know any actual feminists that act that way. I know lots of zealot hipsters that do, though.
You have bought the Rush Limbaugh definition of feminist.
I have around my age. The ones who aren't are around the 15-21 age, or 30-40. Feels weird though. Watching the caste system in the group. OMG HOW CAN YOU NOT NOW THAT!
Isn't Rush's version of a feminist any woman who won't have sex with him?
Nope. Feminism = egalitarianism. Rush Limbaugh's definition: Castrating bitches who hate men. Which is kind of counter to the whole thing.
Ok then I see it more clearly.
A woman wants equal pay for equal work. Your opinion? Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.
you included a qualifier that is not important to the question. the assumption is that all things being equal should women be paid the same as men.
The easy you framed your answer is the same as "we sure I think poc deserve equal pau, unless there is an experience gap" that's weasel word racist just like predicating equal pay on equal experience with regards to men and women. the question had no meaning without that assumption of equal experience.
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 09, 2013, 08:50:43 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:45:30 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:41:18 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:38:54 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.
I don't know any actual feminists that act that way. I know lots of zealot hipsters that do, though.
You have bought the Rush Limbaugh definition of feminist.
I have around my age. The ones who aren't are around the 15-21 age, or 30-40. Feels weird though. Watching the caste system in the group. OMG HOW CAN YOU NOT NOW THAT!
Isn't Rush's version of a feminist any woman who won't have sex with him?
Nope. Feminism = egalitarianism. Rush Limbaugh's definition: Castrating bitches who hate men. Which is kind of counter to the whole thing.
Ok then I see it more clearly.
A woman wants equal pay for equal work. Your opinion? Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.
you included a qualifier that is not important to the question. the assumption is that all things being equal should women be paid the same as men.
The easy you framed your answer is the same as "we sure I think poc deserve equal pau, unless there is an experience gap" that's weasel word racist just like predicating equal pay on equal experience with regards to men and women. the question had no meaning without that assumption of equal experience.
I don't think I did. Equal base pay unless someone has more work experience under their belt for the same position.
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:00:18 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 09, 2013, 08:50:43 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:45:30 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:41:18 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:38:54 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.
I don't know any actual feminists that act that way. I know lots of zealot hipsters that do, though.
You have bought the Rush Limbaugh definition of feminist.
I have around my age. The ones who aren't are around the 15-21 age, or 30-40. Feels weird though. Watching the caste system in the group. OMG HOW CAN YOU NOT NOW THAT!
Isn't Rush's version of a feminist any woman who won't have sex with him?
Nope. Feminism = egalitarianism. Rush Limbaugh's definition: Castrating bitches who hate men. Which is kind of counter to the whole thing.
Ok then I see it more clearly.
A woman wants equal pay for equal work. Your opinion? Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.
you included a qualifier that is not important to the question. the assumption is that all things being equal should women be paid the same as men.
The easy you framed your answer is the same as "we sure I think poc deserve equal pau, unless there is an experience gap" that's weasel word racist just like predicating equal pay on equal experience with regards to men and women. the question had no meaning without that assumption of equal experience.
I don't think I did. Equal base pay unless someone has more work experience under their belt for the same position.
and it is an necessary qualifier to the answer to DOUR's original question.
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 09, 2013, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:00:18 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 09, 2013, 08:50:43 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:45:30 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:41:18 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:38:54 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.
I don't know any actual feminists that act that way. I know lots of zealot hipsters that do, though.
You have bought the Rush Limbaugh definition of feminist.
I have around my age. The ones who aren't are around the 15-21 age, or 30-40. Feels weird though. Watching the caste system in the group. OMG HOW CAN YOU NOT NOW THAT!
Isn't Rush's version of a feminist any woman who won't have sex with him?
Nope. Feminism = egalitarianism. Rush Limbaugh's definition: Castrating bitches who hate men. Which is kind of counter to the whole thing.
Ok then I see it more clearly.
A woman wants equal pay for equal work. Your opinion? Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.
you included a qualifier that is not important to the question. the assumption is that all things being equal should women be paid the same as men.
The easy you framed your answer is the same as "we sure I think poc deserve equal pau, unless there is an experience gap" that's weasel word racist just like predicating equal pay on equal experience with regards to men and women. the question had no meaning without that assumption of equal experience.
I don't think I did. Equal base pay unless someone has more work experience under their belt for the same position.
and it is an necessary qualifier to the answer to DOUR's original question.
Well, he DID draw a conclusion that was not part of the data presented (ie, the need for a qualifier concerning experience, which is another way of saying "I don't really want to commit to this answer without an escape hatch).
On the other hand, he isn't actively hostile to the proposition of egilatarianism, so he's part of the pool of "people who agree but don't seem to completely understand the situation", which means that biting his head off is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE and accomplishes nothing except establishing your own street cred.
If you know what I mean.
Just a thought.
TGRR,
Knows you don't bring people around to your way of thinking by screaming. Especially if they were already there.
I was clarifying my answer.
Roger's answer was a yes/no question.
My answer was Yes, but with a "but".
I hope I didn't confuse anyone.
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:15:05 PM
I was clarifying my answer.
Roger's answer was a yes/no question.
My answer was Yes, but with a "but".
I hope I didn't confuse anyone.
And if the woman has more experience than the man, she should get paid more, right?
So there's no "but".
I see now my "but" is already included in the question, or is a given.
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:17:40 PM
I see now my "but" is already included in the question, or is a given.
Well, sure. I could have phrased it better, ie, "All things being equal..."
But the funny thing is, whenever I ask that question, the FIRST thing most people (not just guys, either) do is throw qualifiers and/or disclaimers all over it.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:13:36 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 09, 2013, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:00:18 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 09, 2013, 08:50:43 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:45:30 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:41:18 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:38:54 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 08:22:51 PM
I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.
I don't know any actual feminists that act that way. I know lots of zealot hipsters that do, though.
You have bought the Rush Limbaugh definition of feminist.
I have around my age. The ones who aren't are around the 15-21 age, or 30-40. Feels weird though. Watching the caste system in the group. OMG HOW CAN YOU NOT NOW THAT!
Isn't Rush's version of a feminist any woman who won't have sex with him?
Nope. Feminism = egalitarianism. Rush Limbaugh's definition: Castrating bitches who hate men. Which is kind of counter to the whole thing.
Ok then I see it more clearly.
A woman wants equal pay for equal work. Your opinion? Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.
you included a qualifier that is not important to the question. the assumption is that all things being equal should women be paid the same as men.
The easy you framed your answer is the same as "we sure I think poc deserve equal pau, unless there is an experience gap" that's weasel word racist just like predicating equal pay on equal experience with regards to men and women. the question had no meaning without that assumption of equal experience.
I don't think I did. Equal base pay unless someone has more work experience under their belt for the same position.
and it is an necessary qualifier to the answer to DOUR's original question.
Well, he DID draw a conclusion that was not part of the data presented (ie, the need for a qualifier concerning experience, which is another way of saying "I don't really want to commit to this answer without an escape hatch).
On the other hand, he isn't actively hostile to the proposition of egilatarianism, so he's part of the pool of "people who agree but don't seem to completely understand the situation", which means that biting his head off is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE and accomplishes nothing except establishing your own street cred.
If you know what I mean.
Just a thought.
TGRR,
Knows you don't bring people around to your way of thinking by screaming. Especially if they were already there.
I see that. Thanks pointing out my monkey moment.
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 09, 2013, 09:20:38 PM
I see that. Thanks pointing out my monkey moment.
Everyone gets 'em. :lulz:
DOUR,
Prone to them, myself.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:19:10 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:17:40 PM
I see now my "but" is already included in the question, or is a given.
Well, sure. I could have phrased it better, ie, "All things being equal..."
But the funny thing is, whenever I ask that question, the FIRST thing most people (not just guys, either) do is throw qualifiers and/or disclaimers all over it.
It felt like a shot in the dark to me, but a small monkey in my head was yelling Read the question again, and also I was scrolling up to see if posted anything before that made me come off as anti- woman.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:24:10 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 09, 2013, 09:20:38 PM
I see that. Thanks pointing out my monkey moment.
Everyone gets 'em. :lulz:
DOUR,
Prone to them, myself.
All that Punk Rock music, and Miley Cyrus.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:30:58 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:26:04 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:24:10 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 09, 2013, 09:20:38 PM
I see that. Thanks pointing out my monkey moment.
Everyone gets 'em. :lulz:
DOUR,
Prone to them, myself.
All that Punk Rock music, and Miley Cyrus.
And that debbil marrywanna.
Kraft Cheese.
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:35:06 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:30:58 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:26:04 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:24:10 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 09, 2013, 09:20:38 PM
I see that. Thanks pointing out my monkey moment.
Everyone gets 'em. :lulz:
DOUR,
Prone to them, myself.
All that Punk Rock music, and Miley Cyrus.
And that debbil marrywanna.
Kraft Cheese.
I am a hopeless addict. :sad:
-
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:36:27 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:35:06 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:30:58 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:26:04 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:24:10 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 09, 2013, 09:20:38 PM
I see that. Thanks pointing out my monkey moment.
Everyone gets 'em. :lulz:
DOUR,
Prone to them, myself.
All that Punk Rock music, and Miley Cyrus.
And that debbil marrywanna.
Kraft Cheese.
I am a hopeless addict. :sad:
I have to whore out to get a slice of Queso. Not the good authentic stuff like in Maine though.
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 09:39:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 08:44:17 PM
Sadly, the tumblr feminist subculture has quite a few people who self-identify as "misandrists" and claim men are inherently violent, men cannot be raped or subject to physical abuse, that all men are potential rapists etc.
Now, quite a few of these blogs are parody blogs, or blogs run by unstable children looking for attention, even if its negative. I'm also fairly sure the larger tumblr feminist culture is quite sane and rational. But they do, unfortunately exist, and frequently get linked to by Reddit etc (http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/) because of their insane and outrageous opinions.
They are, in many respects, doing Limbaugh's work for him.
Thanks for bringing that point to the table Cain. It's quite interesting how people allegedly of an opposing political opinion are willing to do the dirty work of their enemy, and I certainly won't scroll past it like you had posted nothing at all for the next hour.
Didn't you post something like this before? Don't take anything on Tumblr serious ever? I'm just following orders.
Also maybe I'm getting the shitnecks of feminism because I live in Texas.
-
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 09:46:09 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:42:21 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 09:39:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 08:44:17 PM
Sadly, the tumblr feminist subculture has quite a few people who self-identify as "misandrists" and claim men are inherently violent, men cannot be raped or subject to physical abuse, that all men are potential rapists etc.
Now, quite a few of these blogs are parody blogs, or blogs run by unstable children looking for attention, even if its negative. I'm also fairly sure the larger tumblr feminist culture is quite sane and rational. But they do, unfortunately exist, and frequently get linked to by Reddit etc (http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/) because of their insane and outrageous opinions.
They are, in many respects, doing Limbaugh's work for him.
Thanks for bringing that point to the table Cain. It's quite interesting how people allegedly of an opposing political opinion are willing to do the dirty work of their enemy, and I certainly won't scroll past it like you had posted nothing at all for the next hour.
Didn't you post something like this before? Don't take anything on Tumblr serious ever? I'm just following orders.
Also maybe I'm getting the shitnecks of feminism because I live in Texas.
Well excuse me for trying to take part in a fucking conversation.
Excuse me for taking your advice from previous posts. Don't listen to dumbasses on tumbler unless making fun of them.
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 09:39:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 08:44:17 PM
Sadly, the tumblr feminist subculture has quite a few people who self-identify as "misandrists" and claim men are inherently violent, men cannot be raped or subject to physical abuse, that all men are potential rapists etc.
Now, quite a few of these blogs are parody blogs, or blogs run by unstable children looking for attention, even if its negative. I'm also fairly sure the larger tumblr feminist culture is quite sane and rational. But they do, unfortunately exist, and frequently get linked to by Reddit etc (http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/) because of their insane and outrageous opinions.
They are, in many respects, doing Limbaugh's work for him.
Thanks for bringing that point to the table Cain. It's quite interesting how people allegedly of an opposing political opinion are willing to do the dirty work of their enemy, and I certainly won't scroll past it like you had posted nothing at all for the next hour.
My bad, dude.
-
-
Well, FB is just as bad. #fuckcismales is good for a fucking laugh, and for the same reason.
You basically have the Garbo Effect going. Nobody's there to fix anything, they're there to establish cred under that particular blanket.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:19:10 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:17:40 PM
I see now my "but" is already included in the question, or is a given.
But the funny thing is, whenever I ask that question, the FIRST thing most people (not just guys, either) do is throw qualifiers and/or disclaimers all over it.
This was a pretty good example of how not to get caught up on a miscommunication, or a relative newcomer to the subject tripping over a trope (or even just appearing to, by acting in a way which is close enough to the trope). Here, it plays out like this, usually.
In other circles, he could become "that sexist who says 'women should be equal BUT'" and the conversation is over... It's similar to someone entering PD and their first post reading like pinealism or libertarianism... The kinds of things that if you plugged into a naive bayesian classifier, to judge the probability of someone not being worth engaging with based on isolated traits, would swing the likelihood towards "irredeemable douchepolisher" pretty quickly. It's a combination of issues with pattern-matching, issues with the newcomer digging their heels in and issues with the community rejecting them.
Quote from: Pæs on October 09, 2013, 10:34:57 PM
In other circles, he could become "that sexist who says 'women should be equal BUT'" and the conversation is over...
And these are the circles that make everything WORSE while they congratulate themselves on how militant they are.
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 09:39:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 08:44:17 PM
Sadly, the tumblr feminist subculture has quite a few people who self-identify as "misandrists" and claim men are inherently violent, men cannot be raped or subject to physical abuse, that all men are potential rapists etc.
Now, quite a few of these blogs are parody blogs, or blogs run by unstable children looking for attention, even if its negative. I'm also fairly sure the larger tumblr feminist culture is quite sane and rational. But they do, unfortunately exist, and frequently get linked to by Reddit etc (http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/) because of their insane and outrageous opinions.
They are, in many respects, doing Limbaugh's work for him.
Thanks for bringing that point to the table Cain. It's quite interesting how people allegedly of an opposing political opinion are willing to do the dirty work of their enemy, and I certainly won't scroll past it like you had posted nothing at all for the next hour.
I was asleep, so can't really take any responsibility for ignoring you.
Yeah, there are definitely a collection of "radfems" with the positions you describe. If you look hard enough, you can find people espousing the belief that "men are, ipso facto, rapists, whether or not they ever 'technically' rape anyone" or "the balance of power in the patriarchy is such that a woman CANNOT consent to sex without being a victim of it."
Fortunately, the consensus of the feminists I associate with is "Those People are a bit nuts". It pays to keep in mind that these same fringes of feminism also hold beliefs that directly conflict with those of the core of the movement. There's a lot of "trans women are imposters and perverts", "trans men are traitors to womanhood", while the centre of feminism is all about acceptance of the right to self-determine gender identity.
So yeah, the extremist feminist exists but I (getting into a number of discussions on the subject) haven't encountered any. Probably because I only use tumblr for lols. It's loosely comparable to the preference of some media to use extreme religious fringes to dismiss the centre of those movements.
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 08:44:17 PM
Sadly, the tumblr feminist subculture has quite a few people who self-identify as "misandrists" and claim men are inherently violent, men cannot be raped or subject to physical abuse, that all men are potential rapists etc.
Now, quite a few of these blogs are parody blogs, or blogs run by unstable children looking for attention, even if its negative. I'm also fairly sure the larger tumblr feminist culture is quite sane and rational. But they do, unfortunately exist, and frequently get linked to by Reddit etc (http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/) because of their insane and outrageous opinions.
They are, in many respects, doing Limbaugh's work for him.
My daughter is involved in the Tumblr feminist scene, which was concerning at first but luckily she has a pretty level head on her shoulders and a tendency to remind people that men are people with feelings and that people don't know what they haven't learned yet.
Hopefully she'll stay that way.
I deeply dislike the attention-whoring militant misandrist crowd. I always find myself wondering what proportion of them are actually misogynistic shills out to make a mockery of feminism, but then I remember, humans, and I realize it's teeth-grindingly few.
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 09, 2013, 10:54:41 PM
and that people don't know what they haven't learned yet.
And THIS is the fucking part I've been hollering about for the last 18 months. THAT, RIGHT THERE.
Thank your daughter for me. She's smarter than my old ass, and managed to word in one phrase what I've been trying to say since 2011.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 10:36:13 PM
Quote from: Pæs on October 09, 2013, 10:34:57 PM
In other circles, he could become "that sexist who says 'women should be equal BUT'" and the conversation is over...
And these are the circles that make everything WORSE while they congratulate themselves on how militant they are.
They're in an interesting position which I don't know how to approach. I like to be conscious of how it looks to a feminist community to have a dude come in and tell them what-for and why they're DOING IT WRONG. Wish me luck not tripping over any established tropes with THAT approach. They're also (quite understandably, IMO) reacting and perceiving themselves to be reacting to a system that
attacked them first.For me, it's a matter of balancing that understanding with an interest in helping to communicate the pretty important message they've got.
Quote from: Pæs on October 09, 2013, 10:57:51 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 10:36:13 PM
Quote from: Pæs on October 09, 2013, 10:34:57 PM
In other circles, he could become "that sexist who says 'women should be equal BUT'" and the conversation is over...
And these are the circles that make everything WORSE while they congratulate themselves on how militant they are.
They're in an interesting position which I don't know how to approach. I like to be conscious of how it looks to a feminist community to have a dude come in and tell them what-for and why they're DOING IT WRONG. Wish me luck not tripping over any established tropes with THAT approach. They're also (quite understandably, IMO) reacting and perceiving themselves to be reacting to a system that attacked them first.
For me, it's a matter of balancing that understanding with an interest in helping to communicate the pretty important message they've got.
I don't even try. I am convinced that most, if not all, of them are out to have the biggest, smelliest farts under the communal blanket, and they don't give a fuck what it does to the rest of the "community". It's not about feminism or anything else, other than LOOK AT MEEEEEEEE!
So to hell with them. As far as I'm concerned, their pretty important message is "them"...and if there's more to it, it DOESN'T MATTER, because they are UNABLE AND/OR UNWILLING TO COMMUNICATE with people who aren't already converted.
And if they are "just reacting to a system that attacked them first", well, FUCK THEM. Because I didn't attack them, my father certainly didn't attack them, and if they REALLY think that ALL men attacked them, then they aren't fucking up to the task at hand.
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."
- Al Capone
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 09:39:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 08:44:17 PM
Sadly, the tumblr feminist subculture has quite a few people who self-identify as "misandrists" and claim men are inherently violent, men cannot be raped or subject to physical abuse, that all men are potential rapists etc.
Now, quite a few of these blogs are parody blogs, or blogs run by unstable children looking for attention, even if its negative. I'm also fairly sure the larger tumblr feminist culture is quite sane and rational. But they do, unfortunately exist, and frequently get linked to by Reddit etc (http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/) because of their insane and outrageous opinions.
They are, in many respects, doing Limbaugh's work for him.
Thanks for bringing that point to the table Cain. It's quite interesting how people allegedly of an opposing political opinion are willing to do the dirty work of their enemy, and I certainly won't scroll past it like you had posted nothing at all for the next hour.
I agree with what Cain said Cain said.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 10:57:03 PM
Thank your daughter for me. She's smarter than my old ass, and managed to word in one phrase what I've been trying to say since 2011.
She has a remarkable way of distilling fairly complex concepts down to a few simple words that make perfect sense.
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 09:39:12 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 08:44:17 PM
Sadly, the tumblr feminist subculture has quite a few people who self-identify as "misandrists" and claim men are inherently violent, men cannot be raped or subject to physical abuse, that all men are potential rapists etc.
Now, quite a few of these blogs are parody blogs, or blogs run by unstable children looking for attention, even if its negative. I'm also fairly sure the larger tumblr feminist culture is quite sane and rational. But they do, unfortunately exist, and frequently get linked to by Reddit etc (http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/) because of their insane and outrageous opinions.
They are, in many respects, doing Limbaugh's work for him.
Thanks for bringing that point to the table Cain. It's quite interesting how people allegedly of an opposing political opinion are willing to do the dirty work of their enemy, and I certainly won't scroll past it like you had posted nothing at all for the next hour.
The misandry thing (Aside from the all men are abusers and cannot be subject to abuse thing) is mostly a joke, and a reaction to MRA's, from what I can tell. I actually do not know any IRL feminists that i spend time with who do any of this shit.
I actually made a resolution a while back to give 101 links to people new to concepts in feminism and get them to read more rather than getting stressed with them. if they fail to read more I just fucking ignore them. Pretty simple and avoids the hostility backlash. if they come back to me with actual questions and a need for clarification or whatever then I'm cool.
Quote from: Pixie on October 09, 2013, 11:45:29 PM
The misandry thing (Aside from the all men are abusers and cannot be subject to abuse thing) is mostly a joke, and a reaction to MRA's, from what I can tell. I actually do not know any IRL feminists that i spend time with who do any of this shit.
I don't know any IRL feminists like that either, but I know an awful lot of internet ones. And I don't think they're joking.
QuoteI actually made a resolution a while back to give 101 links to people new to concepts in feminism and get them to read more rather than getting stressed with them. if they fail to read more I just fucking ignore them. Pretty simple and avoids the hostility backlash. if they come back to me with actual questions and a need for clarification or whatever then I'm cool.
That's a damn good idea.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 10, 2013, 12:01:47 AM
Quote from: Pixie on October 09, 2013, 11:45:29 PM
The misandry thing (Aside from the all men are abusers and cannot be subject to abuse thing) is mostly a joke, and a reaction to MRA's, from what I can tell. I actually do not know any IRL feminists that i spend time with who do any of this shit.
I don't know any IRL feminists like that either, but I know an awful lot of internet ones. And I don't think they're joking.
QuoteI actually made a resolution a while back to give 101 links to people new to concepts in feminism and get them to read more rather than getting stressed with them. if they fail to read more I just fucking ignore them. Pretty simple and avoids the hostility backlash. if they come back to me with actual questions and a need for clarification or whatever then I'm cool.
That's a damn good idea.
It's a political school of thought that has a 100+ year history, so, if you aren't willing to actually read about shit rather than rely on stereotypes then it's like a creationist trying to argue with an evolutionary biologist. The creationist is going to look like an eejit. You can't really engage with a largely academic topic without going through some basics. If people aren't willing to catch up to speed and actually come to me on a level closer to my understanding rather than trotting out the hairy lesbian manhater trope (I am hairy, lesbianism is not a bad thing and I only hate on douchebags) then they are wasting my precious time and are not really worth the effort. Telling them this is incredibly effective when dealing with SGITRS.
Feminism doesn't need a rebrand, it needs people to actually know what the political thought is rather than relying on the Pat Robertson and Rush Limbaughs of this world.
Quote from: Pixie on October 10, 2013, 12:21:13 AM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 10, 2013, 12:01:47 AM
Quote from: Pixie on October 09, 2013, 11:45:29 PM
The misandry thing (Aside from the all men are abusers and cannot be subject to abuse thing) is mostly a joke, and a reaction to MRA's, from what I can tell. I actually do not know any IRL feminists that i spend time with who do any of this shit.
I don't know any IRL feminists like that either, but I know an awful lot of internet ones. And I don't think they're joking.
QuoteI actually made a resolution a while back to give 101 links to people new to concepts in feminism and get them to read more rather than getting stressed with them. if they fail to read more I just fucking ignore them. Pretty simple and avoids the hostility backlash. if they come back to me with actual questions and a need for clarification or whatever then I'm cool.
That's a damn good idea.
It's a political school of thought that has a 100+ year history, so, if you aren't willing to actually read about shit rather than rely on stereotypes then it's like a creationist trying to argue with an evolutionary biologist. The creationist is going to look like an eejit. You can't really engage with a largely academic topic without going through some basics. If people aren't willing to catch up to speed and actually come to me on a level closer to my understanding rather than trotting out the hairy lesbian manhater trope (I am hairy, lesbianism is not a bad thing and I only hate on douchebags) then they are wasting my precious time and are not really worth the effort. Telling them this is incredibly effective when dealing with SGITRS.
Feminism doesn't need a rebrand, it needs people to actually know what the political thought is rather than relying on the Pat Robertson and Rush Limbaughs of this world.
Needs to be reclaimed, IMO.
Relevant discussion of conflict in social justice communities: https://medium.com/gender-justice-feminism/505879072fdc
Quote from: Pæs on October 10, 2013, 03:37:27 AM
Relevant discussion of conflict in social justice communities: https://medium.com/gender-justice-feminism/505879072fdc
Um, that's a monologue, not a discussion. But still.
Anyway, the thing is, Bearman walked in here with a view on feminism that has been manufactured by reactionaries and furthered by people who are more interested in being militant than they are in the thing they are militant about.
One simple question later, he seems to have a slightly different view.
When someone asks about feminism, it is not required to start with Susan B Anthony. When someone asks "what the hell is CIS?", it is not required to tell them what a shitbag they are for being CIS (which we have seen, here at this very forum).
It all comes down to "what kind of world do you want?"
If you want a world with a little justice in it, you have to communicate the ideas of justice. You don't do that with #fuckcismales or some putrid hipster ranting about why it's okay to bray hatred at people he doesn't even know. That is ANTI-COMMUNICATION. So is that stupid fucking "Fuck you for not including me" mockery "argument", so is that "CIS Man-tears" shit, and so is fucking hollering at people for asking a question...And most CERTAINLY is telling people with no education on the subject that they're "part of the problem".
You know what that shit is? That's taking a cheap fucking shot at someone who wants to help, to score a few points under the fart blanket. It makes the world worse.
And the world's bad enough already.
So, yeah, still carrying a little baggage from 2012, here. The whole death threats thing talked about in that article sort of brought it all back.
Quote from: Pæs on October 10, 2013, 03:37:27 AM
Relevant discussion of conflict in social justice communities: https://medium.com/gender-justice-feminism/505879072fdc
YES!
Seriously, between 2 people who actually like and respect each other from a privilege vs non-privileged status, shit like this conversation between Gabe and Sophie are the (best possible outcome) way things go. there is something about Twitter that is NOT GOOD for a proper discussion and unpacking of complex concepts of gender, or, well anything complex. Gabe is a pretty good example of a privileged person who kneejerks first and thinks later if at all (ref Dickwolves, google that). Also I guess in a lot of online spaces associated with SJ that the ones that didn't get handed life on easy mode are frustrated and are basically getting their rant on. (the Tumblr stuff is very much so this from what I see).It's like when black women give white middle class feminists a hard time for racefails. I've seen it, and it got real ugly just last week in fact (long and short of it, the white women were not listening,and even sent messages harassing WOC via PM, it was not pretty and the suggestion that "we just didn't talk about racism" came up waaay too often).
It's like when the Really Real Discordians shit on our collective porch, we tend to give them short shrift. When the same shit is repeated and you have to start from basics *again* hence my tactic of here, have a link, shut up and come back when you've read it.
Quote from: Pixie on October 10, 2013, 04:02:24 AM
and you have to start from basics *again* hence my tactic of here, have a link, shut up and come back when you've read it.
Which, now that I think about it, isn't communication
either.
I think in a lot of cases that the internets are kind of hostile to those who are openly women/QUILTBAG/POC or other than the Default Narrative of Straight White Cis Dude and a lot of the conversations I have had online are far, far different in tone to the ones I have had IRL.
Some of that hostility Bear and Roger have mentioned from SJ folks is a defense mechanism. There was a campaign about having a woman on a banknote (other than Liz) in the UK and the organiser got rape threats. In the case of the Tropes Vs Women in gaming kickstarter, Anita Sarkeesian got a whole out there raft of bullshit. Unfortunately, not enough dudes call out their bros on their shit, so they have been given a free pass (that the douchenozzles think, anyhoo) to go around threatening people. Reasonable didn't work with the facebook policies condoning sexual assault, or Anita Sarkeesian, or the banknote thing, or the thing before that, and that (it gets to be long if you have been in the news loop for more than 6 months on the social justice internets) and all these things are fresh in the minds of the communities who are maybe coming across as radical for the sake of it. Frustration can turn the previously reasonable into ARGH FUCK GET OFF MY LAWN.
it can be fucking hostile out there if you stick your head above the parapet and My Steam account and trolling/anti-fascism accounts are gender neutral as I really don't want to deal with that shit.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 10, 2013, 04:05:11 AM
Quote from: Pixie on October 10, 2013, 04:02:24 AM
and you have to start from basics *again* hence my tactic of here, have a link, shut up and come back when you've read it.
Which, now that I think about it, isn't communication either.
ok, I was using shorthand in that particular statement. but having to cover the same ground over and over with the misconceptions is for me, energy that'd be better spent (for my own sanity and health) asking people to educate themselves and ask me about finer points that need clarifying rather than feeling like I'm banging my head against the same bullshit over and over and over again.
Quote from: Pixie on October 10, 2013, 04:26:46 AM
ok, I was using shorthand in that particular statement. but having to cover the same ground over and over with the misconceptions is for me, energy that'd be better spent (for my own sanity and health) asking people to educate themselves and ask me about finer points that need clarifying rather than feeling like I'm banging my head against the same bullshit over and over and over again.
I have come up with a couple of questions that I generally ask, to illustrate things. Saves on long explanations that nobody listens to anyway.
1. If two people have the same skill set and experience, should they be paid the same for the same job?
2. Is there any time a person should be denied their full rights under law without trial?
If the answers are
1. Yes
2. No
They my answer is "congratulations, you're a feminist". Leaves them having the argument in THEIR head, where YOU don't have to listen.
oh i found the Dickwolves timeline!
http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/3041940865/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline
http://debacle.tumblr.com/post/60283610877/the-pratfall-of-penny-arcade-a-timeline-part-2
Might be a bit thread drifty but Gabe has a habit of being a bit of a douche.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 10, 2013, 04:30:40 AM
Quote from: Pixie on October 10, 2013, 04:26:46 AM
ok, I was using shorthand in that particular statement. but having to cover the same ground over and over with the misconceptions is for me, energy that'd be better spent (for my own sanity and health) asking people to educate themselves and ask me about finer points that need clarifying rather than feeling like I'm banging my head against the same bullshit over and over and over again.
I have come up with a couple of questions that I generally ask, to illustrate things. Saves on long explanations that nobody listens to anyway.
1. If two people have the same skill set and experience, should they be paid the same for the same job?
2. Is there any time a person should be denied their full rights under law without trial?
If the answers are
1. Yes
2. No
They my answer is "congratulations, you're a feminist". Leaves them having the argument in THEIR head, where YOU don't have to listen.
Yea when it comes to the finer points of rape culture and victim blaming, however, this is where the nuances come in and i'd prefer someone to be up to speed on what consent is, what it is not and such. it saves me a lot of meds.
I have a virtual bookmark list in my head full of basic introductory level to various SJ topics that I use as a starting point. That's for the more difficult tasks of trying to subvert the bad signal that makes ignorant folks say shitty things to marginalised and possibly abused or victimised people.
The whole idea of militant fart-sniffers in any movement is something that makes perfect sense to me. The way I see it, it begins from a position of feeling powerless. The immediate primate response to this seems to be to try and grab some power back wherever they can. So you see the middleman getting slapped by the manager and handing that down to his underlings. Nothing surprising to me there.
How the fuck do you stop it or get through to them, tho? Calling them stupid doesn't seem to work.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 10, 2013, 08:48:46 AM
The whole idea of militant fart-sniffers in any movement is something that makes perfect sense to me. The way I see it, it begins from a position of feeling powerless. The immediate primate response to this seems to be to try and grab some power back wherever they can. So you see the middleman getting slapped by the manager and handing that down to his underlings. Nothing surprising to me there.
How the fuck do you stop it or get through to them, tho? Calling them stupid doesn't seem to work.
Consent education in schools? The most militant that I know (and, also the least as a one-person outlier, incidentally) have all been sexual assault survivors in the case of people I have met IRL. IDK about the most militant of online folks, but feminism isn't a monolith and has very different connotations if you put the word marxist or socialist or radical or liberal or christian or islamic or blah in front of it.
Spoke to my more reasonable feminist SA survivor friend today.
They totally had a case of the misandry early on after they were assaulted.
anecdote isn't data, but it IS a pattern i recognise in survivors.
Quote from: Pixie on October 10, 2013, 06:53:20 PM
Spoke to my more reasonable feminist SA survivor friend today.
They totally had a case of the misandry early on after they were assaulted.
anecdote isn't data, but it IS a pattern i recognise in survivors.
I can see that as being perfectly reasonable.
But I don't think it explains the
competitive militancy on the internet.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 10, 2013, 06:54:58 PM
Quote from: Pixie on October 10, 2013, 06:53:20 PM
Spoke to my more reasonable feminist SA survivor friend today.
They totally had a case of the misandry early on after they were assaulted.
anecdote isn't data, but it IS a pattern i recognise in survivors.
I can see that as being perfectly reasonable.
But I don't think it explains the competitive militancy on the internet.
it might not be competitive is my thinking. It might just be an echo chamber of rant that they can't do anywhere else.
Quote from: Pixie on October 10, 2013, 06:56:10 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 10, 2013, 06:54:58 PM
Quote from: Pixie on October 10, 2013, 06:53:20 PM
Spoke to my more reasonable feminist SA survivor friend today.
They totally had a case of the misandry early on after they were assaulted.
anecdote isn't data, but it IS a pattern i recognise in survivors.
I can see that as being perfectly reasonable.
But I don't think it explains the competitive militancy on the internet.
it might not be competitive is my thinking. It might just be an echo chamber of rant that they can't do anywhere else.
Who gains the most respect in any FB community (of any kind)?
It's competitive, on the internet. Same as any other cause. Oddly enough, the same people are probably pretty calm and reasonable about things IRL. But IRL, they are probably trying to sell their ideas, rather than their status.
It ain't a feminist thing, it's a primate thing.
Come to think of it, the only people I know that aren't more reasonable IRL are hardcore conservatives.
*ahem* the scots
just sayin
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 10, 2013, 07:05:14 PM
*ahem* the scots
just sayin
I am assuming the ability to reason, ie, "reasonable".