Feminists are Scary.

[Pæs]

Read this today about issues with feminism being exclusionary to newcomers which touches on a number of "WELL FINE I WON'T BE A FEMINIST IF YOU WON'T LET ME" issues that we've run into in conversations here.

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/10/09/guest-blog-reflections-on-contemporary-feminist-censuring/

So I'm thinking today about how to communicate feminist ideas and encourage communication of those ideas without tone policing or running afoul of the trope in which people rejecting the "women should know their place, be polite about things or shut up" meme are told to present their objections in a polite way or shut up.

My full response to the person who Faceblag'd this follows but contains a lot of hierarchy explanation which is already pretty well covered here. Also, I made a nod to PD but overstated the existence of hierarchy here to support my point (as well as making up what PD's purpose is). Don't freak out.

I think it's an issue you run into in any community/discipline. And excuse me if any of this long ramble accidentally mansplain feminist concepts, I'm trying to just focus on conflict within disciplines. As soon as a subject has enough specialist knowledge, jargon, memes which are only accessible to those who are well read on it, it becomes very easy for a hierarchy to emerge within it based on who knows, or seems to know, the most.

There are hierarchies in Atheism, hierarchies in Anarchism. I contribute to a community whose purpose is, superficially, to identify bias and status hierarchies and modify how we communicate ideas taking these into account and there's a "who is best at observing hierarchies" hierarchy.

Especially within intensely academic contexts, *it feels good to show that you know lots of stuff* and I think eventually it naturally follows that you can use things others don't know to highlight the knowledge you have which is extra valuable. You build a little collection of tidbits that you can share with people who don't have those facts in their collection. It's an adversarial way to interact with one another, but in most cases IRL that conflict is disguised under layers of civility. Less so on the internet. And this is where, I think, the appearance of knowledge becomes important because if you can effectively shut down another speaker on the subject, you can improve your perception of your own status and coax from your brain the pleasant chemicals which come along with that... and feminism has an arsenal of opportunities to tell someone they're using the wrong word or not taking an affected minority into consideration which, while very important subjects for education on, can also be used destructively.

Feminist discussion has had a lot of time to build up a history that newcomers may not be aware of. There are a number of feminist tropes which are based on common reactions to feminism and there's a danger that because the more educated party has dealt with these so many times and is well-learned on the reasons why certain reactions are inappropriate, for them to react with frustration at people who don't seem to get it because they aren't working with the same knowledge-base.

I think it's especially upsetting in feminism because criticisms based in "why didn't you already know this thing I know" ignore the fact that we're talking about a system which is largely invisible to those we're explaining it to and that if your first experience learning about the impact of this system is a hostile interaction on the internet, you're likely to be less receptive to it in future. There's the added complication of needing to be careful not to tell people who are negatively impacted by patriarchy every day to present their opinions of it in a user-friendly way. It's a matter of finding a balance between (totally justifiable) outrage and communicating the reasons for it to those for whom these effects aren't their lived experience.

[Ben Shapiro]

Yep. Everyone is judged by the company the keep. When feminists create a caste system within themselves and also shit on women Feminism fails. I believe Roger said something about them being too busy smelling their own farts to care anymore.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yes, there's that increasing status within the group concept again.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yep. Everyone is judged by the company the keep. When feminists create a caste system within themselves and also shit on women Feminism fails. I believe Roger said something about them being too busy smelling their own farts to care anymore.

I never bitched about feminists doing that.  I bitched about zealots doing that, and the subject of their zealotry doesn't really matter.  There's a light year of difference between Garbo and Nigel, for example.

Garbo is there to show the rest of the pack her enflamed ass.

Nigel is there to maybe not get shat on, and maybe have her daughters get shat on less than she was.

I'm there because I believe in a level playing field.

[Ben Shapiro]

I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.

I don't know any actual feminists that act that way.  I know lots of zealot hipsters that do, though.

You have bought the Rush Limbaugh definition of feminist.

[Ben Shapiro]

I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.

I don't know any actual feminists that act that way.  I know lots of zealot hipsters that do, though.

You have bought the Rush Limbaugh definition of feminist.

I have around my age. The ones who aren't are around the 15-21 age, or 30-40. Feels weird though. Watching the caste system in the group. OMG HOW CAN YOU NOT NOW THAT!

Isn't Rush's version of a feminist any woman who won't have sex with him?

Also a factor? Texas??

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.

I don't know any actual feminists that act that way.  I know lots of zealot hipsters that do, though.

You have bought the Rush Limbaugh definition of feminist.

I have around my age. The ones who aren't are around the 15-21 age, or 30-40. Feels weird though. Watching the caste system in the group. OMG HOW CAN YOU NOT NOW THAT!

Isn't Rush's version of a feminist any woman who won't have sex with him?

Nope.  Feminism = egalitarianism.  Rush Limbaugh's definition:  Castrating bitches who hate men.  Which is kind of counter to the whole thing.

A woman wants equal pay for equal work.  Your opinion?

[Cain]

-

[The Good Reverend Roger]

2.)Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.

How about, "experience being equal, no gap at all"?

[Ben Shapiro]

1.)
Ok then I see it more clearly.

2.)Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.

[Ben Shapiro]

Oh god damn it. Sorry for the misquoting, and deleting.

[Ben Shapiro]

2.)Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.

How about, "experience being equal, no gap at all"?

Yes equal pay for sure.

[Don Coyote]

I stand corrected then. I still hate the smug feminist hostility towards women who want to understand the system, and I'm glad people are both more aware, and vocal about it.

I don't know any actual feminists that act that way.  I know lots of zealot hipsters that do, though.

You have bought the Rush Limbaugh definition of feminist.

I have around my age. The ones who aren't are around the 15-21 age, or 30-40. Feels weird though. Watching the caste system in the group. OMG HOW CAN YOU NOT NOW THAT!

Isn't Rush's version of a feminist any woman who won't have sex with him?

Nope.  Feminism = egalitarianism.  Rush Limbaugh's definition:  Castrating bitches who hate men.  Which is kind of counter to the whole thing.

Ok then I see it more clearly.

A woman wants equal pay for equal work.  Your opinion? Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.

you included a qualifier that is not important to the question.  the assumption is that all things being equal should women be paid the same as men.
The easy you framed your answer is the same as "we sure I think poc deserve equal pau, unless there is an experience gap" that's weasel word racist just like predicating equal pay on equal experience with regards to men and women.  the question had no meaning without that assumption of equal experience.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

2.)Of course unless work experience is factor then the pay shouldn't be a massive gap.

How about, "experience being equal, no gap at all"?

Yes equal pay for sure.

Then you're a feminist.