This is interesting, and worth a serious look, IMO.
Abstract:
Quote
To date, 17 states have passed medical marijuana laws, yet very little is known
about their effects. The current study examines the relationship between the
legalization of medical marijuana and traffic fatalities, the leading cause of death
among Americans ages 5 through 34. The first full year after coming into effect,
legalization is associated with an 8 to 11 percent decrease in traffic fatalities. The
impact of legalization on traffic fatalities involving alcohol is larger and estimated
with more precision than its impact on traffic fatalities that do not involve alcohol.
Legalization is also associated with sharp decreases in the price of marijuana and
alcohol consumption, a pattern of results consistent with the hypothesis that
marijuana and alcohol are substitutes. Because alternative mechanisms cannot be
ruled out, the negative relationship between legalization and alcohol-related
traffic fatalities does not necessarily imply that driving under the influence of
marijuana is safer than driving under the influence of alcohol.
Full paper:
http://pages.uoregon.edu/bchansen/MML_Alcohol_Consumption.pdf
So, I think it's bullshit that this board has an entire topic that directly affects many of our lives, and is more or less
afraid to discuss because one member insists on hijacking every conversation about it. Since I and a number of other people live in states where marijuana, medical or otherwise, is legal, I'd like to be able to simply share and talk about these findings and what they may mean. With that in mind, I would like to ask RWHN to please just leave this thread alone, or, if you must post, please refrain from endlessly repeating your disagreements merely to disagree, and provide citations for your assertions. The rest of you, I would ask you to please refrain from baiting, taunting, or mocking RWHN in this thread.
Thank you.
Not sure if the difference is caused by
1. People aren't as impaired by marijuana (doubtful, but I don't know), or
2. People aren't as inclined to go places when they're stoned (more likely, in my opinion).
But an 8-11% drop is pretty damn significant. I am assuming that injuries have also declined. I am wondering, aside from the human cost of these accidents, what sort of financial differences exist?
Just went through the paper again, and the difference when only impaired accidents are considered is pretty damn huge.
Also, this:
QuoteThese results help explain why the California Beer & Beverage Distributors donated $10,000 to Public Safety First, a committee organized to oppose a recent California initiative legalizing marijuana (Grim 2010).
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 11, 2013, 10:57:01 PM
Just went through the paper again, and the difference when only impaired accidents are considered is pretty damn huge.
Also, this:
QuoteThese results help explain why the California Beer & Beverage Distributors donated $10,000 to Public Safety First, a committee organized to oppose a recent California initiative legalizing marijuana (Grim 2010).
The idea that alcohol is sometimes used as a substitute for marijuana is one that I was aware of, and I know a number of people who only drink when pot is for some reason unavailable to them, but I don't know if there is previous data to support that. It will be interesting to see what happens to alcohol consumption in states where marijuana is legalized for recreational use.
I'm also interested in what factors might be contributing to the decrease in fatal alcohol-related accidents. Is it that fewer people are drinking and driving because they're getting high instead, and high people are less likely to drive? Is it safer to drive under the influence of marijuana than alcohol? Is it that people are consuming both alcohol and pot, and, as above, choosing not to drive? SO many unanswered questions.
If it does turn out that marijuana legalization takes a significant bite out of the alcohol market share, we can expect to see the alcohol companies really pouring money into anti-legalization campaigns.
Interesting. I can't endorse driving high, but extensive personal and anecdotal experience tells me that it's nowhere near as bad as driving drunk.
I'm more likely to believe that when pot is legally available, more people choose to spend their discretionary income on that rather than on alcohol which, if nothing else, would logically correspond to a decrease in alcohol-related accidents. Whether or not they're less likely to drive impaired than someone who's drunk, I don't know.
My own observations suggest that alcohol makes you take more risks and marijuana makes you more inert. If youre drunk youre more likely to say lets in somewhere and do something moronic but he youre high you want to sit around listen to music and talk about what seem to be the deep thoughts youre having.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 11, 2013, 11:42:07 PM
My own observations suggest that alcohol makes you take more risks and marijuana makes you more inert. If youre drunk youre more likely to say lets in somewhere and do something moronic but he youre high you want to sit around listen to music and talk about what seem to be the deep thoughts youre having.
I've seen that too, so anecdotally that's an indication that there's maybe something there, but the neat thing about some states legalizing it is that there can be actual data collection that allows us to see what's going on, rather than just speculating.
From what I've seen, stoned drives tend to be excessively cautious. They are the guys you see hugging the curb and going 20 mph. While obnoxious and not terribly safe, it's significantly less dangerous than alcohol impaired driving. (entirely anecdotal, YMMV, etc.)
a decrease in traffic fatalities could be due to an increase in non-fatal traffic accidents.
i.e. there may be just as many (or more) accidents, but now they are less severe because stoned drivers are more cautions than drunk drivers.
I believe there are many people who drink excessively because they can't use marijuana out of fear of losing their jobs.
Just anecdotal, but when I did drive a car I really hated driving without being high. Most people I know drive high, whilst smoking even.
It's nowhere near the same as driving drunk.
Driving drunk impairs your ability to drive, every time. Weed does not.
It does not because it does not completely rob you of judgement, nor does it have the same effect on balance and coordination.
Stoned drivers are not necissarily cautious, imo. It simply doesn't interfere with the process the same way.
Sure, you take someone who never smokes weed, give em a big ol dose, and they'll probably hug the curb and be dumbasses. But most stoners are fully capable of functioning in just about any condition, generally.
I know lots and lots of stoners, pretty much everyone in my social circle. The idea that none of them would drive when high is silly.
Quote from: Alty on October 12, 2013, 12:05:20 AM
But most stoners are fully capable of functioning in just about any condition, generally.
Not me. One hit of Toledo Windowbox garbage and I'm a walking fuckup for hours.
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 11, 2013, 11:23:13 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 11, 2013, 10:57:01 PM
Just went through the paper again, and the difference when only impaired accidents are considered is pretty damn huge.
Also, this:
QuoteThese results help explain why the California Beer & Beverage Distributors donated $10,000 to Public Safety First, a committee organized to oppose a recent California initiative legalizing marijuana (Grim 2010).
The idea that alcohol is sometimes used as a substitute for marijuana is one that I was aware of, and I know a number of people who only drink when pot is for some reason unavailable to them, but I don't know if there is previous data to support that. It will be interesting to see what happens to alcohol consumption in states where marijuana is legalized for recreational use.
I'm also interested in what factors might be contributing to the decrease in fatal alcohol-related accidents. Is it that fewer people are drinking and driving because they're getting high instead, and high people are less likely to drive? Is it safer to drive under the influence of marijuana than alcohol? Is it that people are consuming both alcohol and pot, and, as above, choosing not to drive? SO many unanswered questions.
If it does turn out that marijuana legalization takes a significant bite out of the alcohol market share, we can expect to see the alcohol companies really pouring money into anti-legalization campaigns.
Speaking from first hand knowledge, and having direct conversations with them, they aren't worried about competition and market share. They are pissed about the "weed is safer than alcohol"'meme.
And I do have an opinion about the OP, but due to a lack of time, I will hang back for now.
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 12, 2013, 12:09:38 AM
Speaking from first hand knowledge, and having direct conversations with them, they aren't worried about competition and market share. They are pissed about the "weed is safer than alcohol"'meme.
Because it effects their advertizing (and thus market share), or because they are true believers in their product?
A. I somehow don't think it would be a safe bet to take the alcohol lobby's stated motivations at face value.
B. As far as all medical evidence so far suggests, weed is, in fact, safer than alcohol. How is that controversial? Potentially detrimental to the alcohol industry's bottom line in areas where marijuana is legal, certainly, but hardly controversial.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 12, 2013, 12:10:37 AM
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 12, 2013, 12:09:38 AM
Speaking from first hand knowledge, and having direct conversations with them, they aren't worried about competition and market share. They are pissed about the "weed is safer than alcohol"'meme.
Because it effects their advertizing (and thus market share), or because they are true believers in their product?
It's more, in their eyes, about MPP talking smack about their products. Which certainly could impact sales, but they said that legalization hasn't impacted them at all from a strict competition point of view.
They believe it is an irrelevant comparison. I agree with them, but for different reasons.
Not because their product is safe, and they know where I stand on that. But because it distracts and obscures the real, documented dangers of marijuana, on its own merits.
The research does not find it to be more dangerous, it finds it to be less dangerous.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2004.00744.x/abstract;jsessionid=666938BD281BE43AB94884B0CD7FC02D.f01t04?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
(Gable, on the study: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/12/19/should-teenagers-get-high-instead-of-drunk/marijuana-is-far-less-toxic-than-alcohol-or-cocaine)
http://eeg.sagepub.com/content/40/1/31.short
http://jop.sagepub.com/content/early/2011/09/03/0269881111414751
That is just the tip of the iceburg of very solid studies.
Do you have any research that shows that it is more dangerous?
Here is a website, for starters, that is researched and cited that pushes back against the myths of marijuana being safe and harmless.
http://www.ndsu.edu/alcoholinfo/students/marijuana_myths_facts/
I recently had an article published that lays out other facts, but of course newspapers don't print the footnotes, but when I'm back in thr office I can dig those out as I don't have it saved on my iPhone.
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 12, 2013, 01:11:49 AM
Here is a website, for starters, that is researched and cited that pushes back against the myths of marijuana being safe and harmless.
http://www.ndsu.edu/alcoholinfo/students/marijuana_myths_facts/
I recently had an article published that lays out other facts, but of course newspapers don't print the footnotes, but when I'm back in thr office I can dig those out as I don't have it saved on my iPhone.
Hmm, that isn't an academic study, and it doesn't say anything about relative risk. If you have any academic studies that are published in peer-reviewed journals I am interested in seeing them.
If you cannot provide sources to support your assertions, I will again ask that you refrain from posting claims of fact in this thread.
In other words, I am not OK with this thread being hijacked as a "Marijuana is bad" thread. That is not what this thread is for. You have had enough of those threads, this does not need to be another one of those threads. If you cannot stay on the topic of relative risk, please do not post in this thread.
Thread split by request.
Quote from: Alty on October 12, 2013, 12:05:20 AM
Just anecdotal, but when I did drive a car I really hated driving without being high. Most people I know drive high, whilst smoking even.
It's nowhere near the same as driving drunk.
Driving drunk impairs your ability to drive, every time. Weed does not.
It does not because it does not completely rob you of judgement, nor does it have the same effect on balance and coordination.
Stoned drivers are not necissarily cautious, imo. It simply doesn't interfere with the process the same way.
Sure, you take someone who never smokes weed, give em a big ol dose, and they'll probably hug the curb and be dumbasses. But most stoners are fully capable of functioning in just about any condition, generally.
I know lots and lots of stoners, pretty much everyone in my social circle. The idea that none of them would drive when high is silly.
Almost all of my interactions with stoners and casual users was in the college experimentation phase. Do you think that might explain the difference in our experiences?
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 12, 2013, 12:40:18 PM
Quote from: Alty on October 12, 2013, 12:05:20 AM
Just anecdotal, but when I did drive a car I really hated driving without being high. Most people I know drive high, whilst smoking even.
It's nowhere near the same as driving drunk.
Driving drunk impairs your ability to drive, every time. Weed does not.
It does not because it does not completely rob you of judgement, nor does it have the same effect on balance and coordination.
Stoned drivers are not necissarily cautious, imo. It simply doesn't interfere with the process the same way.
Sure, you take someone who never smokes weed, give em a big ol dose, and they'll probably hug the curb and be dumbasses. But most stoners are fully capable of functioning in just about any condition, generally.
I know lots and lots of stoners, pretty much everyone in my social circle. The idea that none of them would drive when high is silly.
Almost all of my interactions with stoners and casual users was in the college experimentation phase. Do you think that might explain the difference in our experiences?
Probably. There's this social thing, people act the way they think high people are supposed to act. Which is always Very Silly. And pretty much everyone starts out getting loopy. Most people that do smoke a lot and drive started smoking well before or at about the same time they learned to drive.
:lulz:
The first time I drove very high it felt like my arms were on sticks I was propping up. I drove super slow, probably should not have driven at all.
But that was, like, 11 years ago. I'm not saying people should do it, merely that it's different from alcohol. You don't get a giant leap of false confidence and emotional burst mixed with poor control over your body the after a couple of bong hits the same as as many dirty martinis.
Yeah, basically you might forget whether you just turned right or left but your vision and reflexes are still fine.
Uhm, are we talking about driving while having smoked weed but still feeling fine or are we talking about driving stoned out of your gourd? Because the latter sounds like a really stupid idea.
The sneaky thing with alcohol is that even a small amount will increase your reactiontime, usually without you noticing.
I don't think anyone said it was a good idea, but people do it and it seems as though most peoples' experience is that even though it's not a good idea, it's still a whole lot less dangerous than driving while impaired on alcohol. Which is, I believe, what this thread is about.
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on October 13, 2013, 07:48:42 PM
I don't think anyone said it was a good idea, but people do it and it seems as though most peoples' experience is that even though it's not a good idea, it's still a whole lot less dangerous than driving while impaired on alcohol. Which is, I believe, what this thread is about.
True.
Tolerance is very much different between the two. What is the measure of tolerance and how do they compare?
No matter how tolerant to alcohol you are, there is usually a very hard and fast limit to what you body can physically handle. At some point it will kill you. Before that happens there is a large grey area of how human beings are actually affected by it.
For example, I do not ever drink and drive, but I never really lose my shit when drinking. I keep pretty good control, I might get a little more mouthy, but I'm plenty mouthy without booze. That doesn't keep me from falling over if I have too much, or being racked with pain the next day.
These physical effects are harsh and severe.
Weed tolerance is a very different thing. It takes an awful lot of weed to make me feel overwhelmed by my environment, or overly giggly, or to lose my grip on where I'm at and what I'm doing. By that point the very last thing I want in the world is to be in a car, mostly because while driving you are subject to The Man's Iron Fist a lot more than when not in a car.
How do you measure the effect of weed in the body as being dangerous? Too impaired to drive? Blood/Alcohol may be accurate, depending on the machine and the cop, no doubt. Sobriety tests for weed would look like...?
"Sir, could you please watch C-Span without either falling asleep or punching walls? Sir, I'm gonna have to insist."
I've known plenty of people who stopped ruining their lives with alcohol by switching to weed. This study shows that that's good for public safety generally, which is cool.
I just ran into a family member who lives in town, I never see him because he's a drunk. Stole whiskey from me once. But he's totally fine with a single beer, and then a bunch of smoking. He's got a stable job cooking at a hospital.
In his thick Hungarian accent he says, "In winter what else there...but smoke and pornography?" He shrugs. It's nice when people stop using their bodies as an alcohol disposal unit.
I'm glad this is getting serious research. I remember posting some links about this a while back, something about states next to states which had legal MMJ having lower drunk driving fatalities. Can't find where I posted those right now, because googleing for "site:principiadiscordia.com driving cannabis" turn up nearly every pot thread we have.
-
OH, SHIT. BEAR? WTF ARE YOU UP TO?
Driving while impaired by marijuana creates silly amounts of risk to the driver and, ergo, others on the road.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/02/09/smoke-and-mirrors-driving-while-on-marijuana-doubles-ones-chances-of-a-serious-car-crash/
In addition to the finding that drivers who had recently smoked pot were substantially more likely to be involved in a serious accident, the researchers found that those who had died in these crashes had higher amounts of the drug's compound tetrahydrocannabinol than those who survived.
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 14, 2013, 11:04:41 AM
Driving while impaired by marijuana creates silly amounts of risk to the driver and, ergo, others on the road.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/02/09/smoke-and-mirrors-driving-while-on-marijuana-doubles-ones-chances-of-a-serious-car-crash/
In addition to the finding that drivers who had recently smoked pot were substantially more likely to be involved in a serious accident, the researchers found that those who had died in these crashes had higher amounts of the drug's compound tetrahydrocannabinol than those who survived.
I'm glad to see we all agree that driving stoned is less stupid than driving drunk but still very stupid. I am glad you finally came around.
I don't agree with that premise at all. Driving impaired is driving impaired. Tacitly encouraging people to drive stoned is reckless and irresponsible.
http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html
http://www.borkensteincourse.org/faculty%20documents/DubowskiCrashRisk.pdf
If I'm reading this correctly, acute marijuana use doubles your risk of an accident, while drinking can increase it by as much as 140 times over (after that you're well into alcohol poisoning territory).
Can someone with a better science brain read these things and make sure I'm not being an idiot?
-
IMO, doing ANYTHING to impair your driving is stupid.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that people should drive stoned.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 14, 2013, 03:10:26 PM
IMO, doing ANYTHING to impair your driving is stupid.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that people should drive stoned.
So much THIS. If any causation is involved here, perhaps its that people who are stoned make the more 'paranoid/conservative' decision not to drive, whereas people who are drunk make the more stupid decision to drive impaired.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 14, 2013, 03:14:53 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 14, 2013, 03:10:26 PM
IMO, doing ANYTHING to impair your driving is stupid.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that people should drive stoned.
So much THIS. If any causation is involved here, perhaps its that people who are stoned make the more 'paranoid/conservative' decision not to drive, whereas people who are drunk make the more stupid decision to drive impaired.
Assumes facts not in evidence. My suspicion is that people tend to smoke at home, rather than go out, but there's no data supporting that, or even solid proof that there's causation here at all.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 14, 2013, 03:17:04 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 14, 2013, 03:14:53 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 14, 2013, 03:10:26 PM
IMO, doing ANYTHING to impair your driving is stupid.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that people should drive stoned.
So much THIS. If any causation is involved here, perhaps its that people who are stoned make the more 'paranoid/conservative' decision not to drive, whereas people who are drunk make the more stupid decision to drive impaired.
Assumes facts not in evidence. My suspicion is that people tend to smoke at home, rather than go out, but there's no data supporting that, or even solid proof that there's causation here at all.
Which is why I said 'if' ;-)
As far as I can tell there are lots of conflicting reports on the topic and none of them seem to have anything other than correlation.
Yeah, all we know is that there is a strong and remarkable correlation between legalization of marijuana and a decrease in drunk driving deaths. We don't know WHY. It seems very likely that many people are choosing to smoke pot instead of to drink (confirming that would come back around to finding out whether alcohol sales will drop in states which have legalized marijuana, which we probably won't have firm data on until 2016), and if that is the case, the next step would be to determined whether they are smoking pot and not driving, or smoking pot and driving with less dangerous outcomes than with drinking and driving.
Of course, the interesting questions are - if marijuana becomes legalized the world over - what effect will this have on fatal plane accidents? Is it better to pilot a passenger jet stoned than dead drunk? Does it make airline food more tolerable? These are the hidden upsides the anti-legalization lobby doesn't want you to know about.
-
If we couldn't, I'd like to hear another reason Big Oil has been donating so much money to the anti-legalization movement.
Hemp production largely ceased in 1938. Global warming has skyrocketed in that same period. Coincidence? You decide.
Quote from: Cain on October 14, 2013, 04:49:59 PM
Will we be able to create more environmentally friendly planes powered by weed fumes alone?
It would be irresponsible not to speculate.
Weeeeengs. I wanna ride Weeeeengs Airlines.
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 14, 2013, 12:42:04 PM
Tacitly encouraging people to drive stoned is reckless and irresponsible.
I totally agree!
Hey! i just had a great idea! What if we label all weedbaggies with some 'don't smoke and drive' warning? You know, just like we do with alcohol now!
Quote from: :regret: on October 14, 2013, 10:00:22 PM
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 14, 2013, 12:42:04 PM
Tacitly encouraging people to drive stoned is reckless and irresponsible.
I totally agree!
Hey! i just had a great idea! What if we label all weedbaggies with some 'don't smoke and drive' warning? You know, just like we do with alcohol now!
Do Not Use Around Unpaid-For Bags of Doritos.
Where is the research into driving on salvia? I've never had a crash after smoking a bowl of tripping weed.
I pulled out of my driveway and started off down the road. Then I pulled out of my driveway. Then I pulled out of my driveway. Then I pulled out of my driveway.
And when the buzz wore off, I'd stowed the bong in the glovebox and all of my papers were wet.
WHERE IS THE SCIENCE ON THIS?
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 14, 2013, 12:42:04 PM
I don't agree with that premise at all. Driving impaired is driving impaired. Tacitly encouraging people to drive stoned is reckless and irresponsible.
Why would you provide a source to back up a position you don't hold?
Don't answer that, we all know you only read the parts of articles that support your argument and skim over the rest.
Quote from: Pæs on October 14, 2013, 10:18:47 PM
Where is the research into driving on salvia? I've never had a crash after smoking a bowl of tripping weed.
I pulled out of my driveway and started off down the road. Then I pulled out of my driveway. Then I pulled out of my driveway. Then I pulled out of my driveway.
And when the buzz wore off, I'd stowed the bong in the glovebox and all of my papers were wet.
WHERE IS THE SCIENCE ON THIS?
:lulz:
Quote from: Pæs on October 14, 2013, 10:18:47 PM
Where is the research into driving on salvia? I've never had a crash after smoking a bowl of tripping weed.
I pulled out of my driveway and started off down the road. Then I pulled out of my driveway. Then I pulled out of my driveway. Then I pulled out of my driveway.
And when the buzz wore off, I'd stowed the bong in the glovebox and all of my papers were wet.
WHERE IS THE SCIENCE ON THIS?
:lulz: I miss growing salvia.