There is no "war on drugs", there is drug policy, and there is reasonable debate on how we approach drug policy. However, legalizing pot does nothing to help our issues with addiction, and will indeed exacerbate them while lining the pockets of, mostly, wealthy white males.
Oh, no, this is fine. :lulz:
Quote from: /b/earman on February 22, 2014, 01:57:26 AM
Dear Nostalgia assbags,
We don't fucking care how "hard" your life was, or how the "good old days" were better. Go fuck yourself hard for trying to convince me that two world wars, Jim Crow laws, and not having the internet connecting me to the rest or the world and having access to free information in a matter of seconds is better.
There is nothing amazing about reading porno by candle light, and small pox.
One last thing, the Beatles fucking sucked get over it.
Sincerely, 2014
Seriously, I am with you. Nostalgia is stupid, and I hate it.
All the people who are all, yeah everything was awesome BEFORE I GOT OLD. Dudes, you are conflating you being NOT OLD with things being awesome. Shit, yeah, it was awesome being young FOR YOU, because you were young and privileged, that doesn't mean things were awesome for everyone else who wasn't privileged. It's not like being young was awesome BECAUSE gays couldn't hold hands in public.
Oh yeah, being young was awesome because when I was young black people couldn't buy property outside of the King neighborhood, right? Therefore, I got older because of the dissolusion of Portland's Red Line.
Quote from: /b/earman on February 22, 2014, 08:40:35 AM
My hatred is the assbags who go on and on about real men, and women sitting down and being a lady.
YEAH
When I was young women knew their place, therefore my becoming older is a result of women becoming independent.
A variation: I would be getting laid if women knew their place.
Another variation: If it weren't for feminism, I would be an alpha male.
AKA: if it weren't for feminism, I would be having sex.
AKA: I don't believe that natural selection applies to me at all.
Quote from: /b/earman on February 22, 2014, 09:00:43 AM
Women like giant monster trucks right? I mean if she doesn't dig this barbed wire tattoo it's because she's gay, or is bad in bed.
Or a slut.
I've got no problem with nostalgia, I've got a brain full of cool memories of the past. They're fun to remember, occasionally relive or whatever but ranking these on a greater or less than scale, in comparison to the present or (even more ridiculously) an unknown potential future?
There has never been a better time than now. There never will be.
Let's hit another common "traditionalist". He lives with his parents, drives a car full/made of garbage, works a minimum wage job with horrific hours, refuses to eat anything that isn't junk/meat and treats women like second class citizens. He never has any relationship last more than a month or two if he dates at all, but this has to be the woman's fault for not having "traditional values" like him.
He uses his "traditional values" to justify his pathetic life choices and demands that you respect him for waving the "tradition" flag. Expect him to rage if you remotely mention anything near feminism. Some even rage at just egalitarianism. Women paying bills/handing money? FEMNAZIS! She doesn't want kids? OMGGTFO!
While we're at it: FUCK STEAMPUNK.
Steampunk = people who are nostalgia-blinded by the Victorian era yet are too scared to leave their computers behind.
Where cyberpunk at least has the grace to look to the future, steampunk looked at the future, wet itself, and decided to pretend it's over 100 years ago. Then they slapped brass gears and some fake wood panelling on an Ipad so they can pretend it's "alternate universe tech" because they just can't live without youtube. Yes, we really were better off with mass social and sexual repression, women being treated as second-class citizens unable to even vote, rampant Syphilis outbreaks, zero labor laws, and coal smoke blotting out the sun. Great choice.
Bonus points: there's a large overlap between the guys in my first paragraph and Steampunks. I'm pretty sure it's not a coincidence.
I think I'm going to like you, new person.
To be fair, all that sexual repression did give birth to the vibrator.
Quote from: Alty on February 23, 2014, 07:34:29 PM
To be fair, all that sexual repression did give birth to the vibrator.
Good things should come out of bad eras. If they don't, then it means we've been wasting our time and should get around to fixing the crap parts of our time period to better our lives.
Focusing on the bad parts and pretending that they're good or even acceptable by current standards (or any standards at all in some cases) is like putting gold dust on a turd and pretending it's a gold nugget. You're only wasting valuable time and resources to fool yourself and everyone around you will think you're a jackass for doing it.
Re-enactment loophole: If you are accepting the good AND bad parts of an era you are emulating while acknowledging that the bad parts are still bad and shouldn't be in this era, but are including them anyway in order to keep perspective then you're good in my book. It's the people who whitewash/ignore the bad parts or even pretend they aren't bad that deserve ire!
Quote from: Red on February 23, 2014, 07:36:10 AM
Let's hit another common "traditionalist". He lives with his parents, drives a car full/made of garbage, works a minimum wage job with horrific hours, refuses to eat anything that isn't junk/meat and treats women like second class citizens. He never has any relationship last more than a month or two if he dates at all, but this has to be the woman's fault for not having "traditional values" like him.
He uses his "traditional values" to justify his pathetic life choices and demands that you respect him for waving the "tradition" flag. Expect him to rage if you remotely mention anything near feminism. Some even rage at just egalitarianism. Women paying bills/handing money? FEMNAZIS! She doesn't want kids? OMGGTFO!
While we're at it: FUCK STEAMPUNK.
Steampunk = people who are nostalgia-blinded by the Victorian era yet are too scared to leave their computers behind.
Where cyberpunk at least has the grace to look to the future, steampunk looked at the future, wet itself, and decided to pretend it's over 100 years ago. Then they slapped brass gears and some fake wood panelling on an Ipad so they can pretend it's "alternate universe tech" because they just can't live without youtube. Yes, we really were better off with mass social and sexual repression, women being treated as second-class citizens unable to even vote, rampant Syphilis outbreaks, zero labor laws, and coal smoke blotting out the sun. Great choice.
Bonus points: there's a large overlap between the guys in my first paragraph and Steampunks. I'm pretty sure it's not a coincidence.
Steampunk is horribly superficial. It tends not to examine its core eras of the time and is explicitly form over function to a comedic degree: Clockwork guns etc.
However, there is something odd about them. We invaded a steam punkforum about six or seven years ago now. We tried trolling them, we just found that they were really nice about the whole thing. They live in their own world blissfully unaware of those around them including those that wish to upset them, so in that regard I'd say leave them off.
Steampunk has always seemed to me to be comprised of people who would FUCKING LOVE to go to a renaissance fair but got sick of being challenged on anachronisms and inaccurately constructed technology so were like "Y'KNOW WHAT, YOUR HIGHNESS? FUCK YOU. I HAVE A LAZOR POWERED BY GEARS NOW."
Quote from: Pæs on February 23, 2014, 08:38:44 PM
Steampunk has always seemed to me to be comprised of people who would FUCKING LOVE to go to a renaissance fair but got sick of being challenged on anachronisms and inaccurately constructed technology so were like "Y'KNOW WHAT, YOUR HIGHNESS? FUCK YOU. I HAVE A LAZOR POWERED BY GEARS NOW."
That's probably it, the anything goes attitude kind of makes them all really laid back and willing to accept each others crazy concepts.
I dont know, steampunk i always have reserved judgement or at least benefit of the doubt... i never quite have understood what they are all about nor have the interest to find out, kind of like more aesthetically and nerdy oriented juggalos, i would say.
Quote from: The Johnny on February 23, 2014, 09:14:33 PM
I dont know, steampunk i always have reserved judgement or at least benefit of the doubt... i never quite have understood what they are all about nor have the interest to find out, kind of like more aesthetically and nerdy oriented juggalos, i would say.
That's pretty much all there is to them. Scratch the surface and that's all you've got, an aesthetic and nothing more. That's why I think it's very superficial, but if it makes them happy I guess they don't need anything more.
Quote from: The Johnny on February 23, 2014, 09:14:33 PM
I dont know, steampunk i always have reserved judgement or at least benefit of the doubt... i never quite have understood what they are all about nor have the interest to find out, kind of like more aesthetically and nerdy oriented juggalos, i would say.
I do like their music better than juggalo stuff
Does the same apply to those who yearn for the "simple life", communes, etc?
Quote from: monad on February 23, 2014, 09:48:13 PM
Does the same apply to those who yearn for the "simple life", communes, etc?
No, because they yearn for a simple life, and steampunks are just simple.
Quote from: Faust on February 23, 2014, 10:09:08 PM
Quote from: monad on February 23, 2014, 09:48:13 PM
Does the same apply to those who yearn for the "simple life", communes, etc?
No, because they yearn for a simple life, and steampunks are just simple.
I meant more with regards to nostalgia in general.
Quote from: monad on February 23, 2014, 10:13:18 PM
Quote from: Faust on February 23, 2014, 10:09:08 PM
Quote from: monad on February 23, 2014, 09:48:13 PM
Does the same apply to those who yearn for the "simple life", communes, etc?
No, because they yearn for a simple life, and steampunks are just simple.
I meant more with regards to nostalgia in general.
Ah ok. We don't have too many of those in Ireland so I'll pass this up to someone who has some experience with the Amish or something
There's a difference between "I want a simple life on a commune" and "The world was better before vaccines and electricity."
Quote from: monad on February 23, 2014, 09:48:13 PM
Does the same apply to those who yearn for the "simple life", communes, etc?
Most people who seek simplicity, which I take to mean less dependence on technology, creature comforts, etc, do so because they enjoy the tasks which modern living takes care of, but at a cost. Global supply chains, dependence on large organization which may meet our needs, have a measure of quality we have little control over.
Then there are those who simply do it to reject the common culture they are born in for a vairety of reasons, of which nostalgia must certainly be one.
As for geared ipads...I dunno, I think a lot of times people just prefer certain designs. If they take anything away from the Victorian era, let it be design!
Quote from: Pæs on February 23, 2014, 10:19:20 PM
There's a difference between "I want a simple life on a commune" and "The world was better before vaccines and electricity."
They could easily be interpreted as analogous.
I mean, I am not seeing people pining for those times in the way people do for the 50s.
The 21st Century is one of cherry picking your way through history, for better or worse.
Quote from: monad on February 23, 2014, 10:35:45 PM
Quote from: Pæs on February 23, 2014, 10:19:20 PM
There's a difference between "I want a simple life on a commune" and "The world was better before vaccines and electricity."
They could easily be interpreted as analogous.
One is an expression of personal preference based on a value judgment the individual is free to make; the other more commonly linked to judgement of the lives of others.
"I like growing my own food" vs "Kids these days aren't as good because they don't have the same experiences I had."
The Amish are wonderful. They're nonviolent, grow great organic veggies that theyvwill happily sell, brew great homemade wine that they will sometimes share, and they aren't interested in casting judgement on others.
They don't reject technology out of hand, but they are selective bout it's use, which is something I think we could all learn from.
Pæs: In an ideal world, perhaps everyone who made a decision for themselves would understand that the same decision might not be the best for other people. It doesn't seem to be the case that it is. I imagine even the Amish believe that everyone else is going to hell. That is a value judgement. I am not trying to say you are wrong, just that both interpretations are valid.
Quote from: Red on February 23, 2014, 07:36:10 AM
While we're at it: FUCK STEAMPUNK.
Steampunk = people who are nostalgia-blinded by the Victorian era yet are too scared to leave their computers behind.
Where cyberpunk at least has the grace to look to the future, steampunk looked at the future, wet itself, and decided to pretend it's over 100 years ago. Then they slapped brass gears and some fake wood panelling on an Ipad so they can pretend it's "alternate universe tech" because they just can't live without youtube. Yes, we really were better off with mass social and sexual repression, women being treated as second-class citizens unable to even vote, rampant Syphilis outbreaks, zero labor laws, and coal smoke blotting out the sun. Great choice.
Bonus points: there's a large overlap between the guys in my first paragraph and Steampunks. I'm pretty sure it's not a coincidence.
I wouldn't mind steampunk if it weren't so historically denialist. The Victorian era has great potential as a setting for horror and dark fantasy, but the steampunk kids love to sweep that shit under the rug in favour of a world where everyone's a lovable, happy-go-lucky street urchin or an eccentric inventor with an airship and goggles. I think Dishonoured's the only steampunk thing I've seen that had the stones not to romanticize its setting.
Quote from: Alty on February 23, 2014, 10:36:46 PM
I mean, I am not seeing people pining for those times in the way people do for the 50s.
...............
If they take anything away from the Victorian era, let it be design!
Then you are lucky, friend! I go to conventions and like to listen to people talk. It makes me feel sick inside when two guys of the brass gear and leather set are talking about how life was better when women couldn't vote and saying that women are best subservient. They then start bragging about how under their thumb "their women" are. I have also caught ones who are anti-vaccination, want to see business deregulated, and some that even think a return to slavery is a good idea. They weren't roleplaying: with the costumes off they were exactly the same. I saw a few "fashion only" steampunks get repulsed.
Steampunk is already getting "lifestylers". Sure, some are reasonable folks who are just trying to strip down to a more homespun lifestyle, but then you get the people who see Steampunk as "Victorian Modern" with all the ugliness that comes with the Victorian era. And then you get the nostalgia-goggled manifestos where they think that the lifestyle had back in the 1800's was more sustainable than our current one (http://2008.gogbot.nl/thema/) or it feels they are just doing it because they feel the future is empty plastic (http://steampunkworkshop.com/california-steampunk-convention-keynote) and prefer to look back at the past.
In the manifestos there is some talk of freedom of information, self-reliance and freedom to tinker/create, and Cyberpunk has those things as well, however, Cyberpunk doesn't nostalgia-goggle! Ok, so the "bleak future" of cyberpunk is why people went for the softer, fluffier imagined world of 100+ years ago, but the bleakness of cyberpunk was meant as a call to arms to get you to wake up and make this era better. It's message is not to withdraw but to connect, create, and fight for something better. I just don't see that drive in steampunk.
At least we can all agree that the designs can be quite nice. Art Nouveau can be quite lovely and I enjoy playing with the style sometimes, however, I generally prefer Art Deco. If it weren't for the Victorian era styling neither would have existed! :)
Quote from: President Television on February 23, 2014, 11:01:57 PM
I wouldn't mind steampunk if it weren't so historically denialist. The Victorian era has great potential as a setting for horror and dark fantasy, but the steampunk kids love to sweep that shit under the rug in favour of a world where everyone's a lovable, happy-go-lucky street urchin or an eccentric inventor with an airship and goggles. I think Dishonoured's the only steampunk thing I've seen that had the stones not to romanticize its setting.
Also, this. Yeah... it drives me CRAZY, too.
Quote from: monad on February 23, 2014, 10:13:18 PM
Quote from: Faust on February 23, 2014, 10:09:08 PM
Quote from: monad on February 23, 2014, 09:48:13 PM
Does the same apply to those who yearn for the "simple life", communes, etc?
No, because they yearn for a simple life, and steampunks are just simple.
I meant more with regards to nostalgia in general.
There's an alternate version out here called "going country". Some people genuinely just want to go farm, and then there's the people who think life will get better just because they went and bought a farm. The later are the "going country" crowd.
If you really want to farm or manage wildlife, go ahead and move out there and get started. There's nothing wrong with having a genuine desire for these things. If you're "going country" for any other reason you're going to quickly find out that a smaller community doesn't tend to make things better. If anything, the prejudices and demand for being "just like them" skyrockets when you have a small number of people as they all know eachother and will want eachother's approval. All it takes is one deciding you're an "outsider" and popular opinion turns as everyone else will join in order to not get targeted. Even worse: if something happens like, oh, the outsider gets robbed or has a tree fall on his house NOBODY will help you. In a city at least you can find unbiased help!
I haven't been on a commune yet, but as communes generally seem to be choosy about who gets to move in, I bet most people wanting to join from sheer nostalgia for a "better" past get turned away. Anyone out here try a commune in the last decade or two? Some of them look very interesting and most of them (that I have seen, anyway) don't seem to be nostalgia-blinded.
Quote from: Red on February 23, 2014, 11:22:53 PM
Quote from: Alty on February 23, 2014, 10:36:46 PM
I mean, I am not seeing people pining for those times in the way people do for the 50s.
...............
If they take anything away from the Victorian era, let it be design!
Then you are lucky, friend! I go to conventions and like to listen to people talk. It makes me feel sick inside when two guys of the brass gear and leather set are talking about how life was better when women couldn't vote and saying that women are best subservient. They then start bragging about how under their thumb "their women" are. I have also caught ones who are anti-vaccination, want to see business deregulated, and some that even think a return to slavery is a good idea. They weren't roleplaying: with the costumes off they were exactly the same. I saw a few "fashion only" steampunks get repulsed.
Steampunk is already getting "lifestylers". Sure, some are reasonable folks who are just trying to strip down to a more homespun lifestyle, but then you get the people who see Steampunk as "Victorian Modern" with all the ugliness that comes with the Victorian era. And then you get the nostalgia-goggled manifestos where they think that the lifestyle had back in the 1800's was more sustainable than our current one (http://2008.gogbot.nl/thema/) or it feels they are just doing it because they feel the future is empty plastic (http://steampunkworkshop.com/california-steampunk-convention-keynote) and prefer to look back at the past.
In the manifestos there is some talk of freedom of information, self-reliance and freedom to tinker/create, and Cyberpunk has those things as well, however, Cyberpunk doesn't nostalgia-goggle! Ok, so the "bleak future" of cyberpunk is why people went for the softer, fluffier imagined world of 100+ years ago, but the bleakness of cyberpunk was meant as a call to arms to get you to wake up and make this era better. It's message is not to withdraw but to connect, create, and fight for something better. I just don't see that drive in steampunk.
At least we can all agree that the designs can be quite nice. Art Nouveau can be quite lovely and I enjoy playing with the style sometimes, however, I generally prefer Art Deco. If it weren't for the Victorian era styling neither would have existed! :)
:aaa: :aaa: :aaa:
...
...
...
:um: :ffs: :treefucker: :nuke2:
What in the actual fuck? You know, there are some perks to being trapped in Alaska.
Thanks for opening my mind to yet another mode of incredibly stupid.
Quote from: /b/earman on February 22, 2014, 08:39:19 AM
Shut me up, or go fuck yourself!™
Might catch on?
Go fuck yourself OR KILL ME.
Quote from: President Television on February 23, 2014, 11:01:57 PM
I wouldn't mind steampunk if it weren't so historically denialist. The Victorian era has great potential as a setting for horror and dark fantasy, but the steampunk kids love to sweep that shit under the rug in favour of a world where everyone's a lovable, happy-go-lucky street urchin or an eccentric inventor with an airship and goggles.
You could say the same thing about [medieval] Fantasy, no?
Me, I don't think steampunk aesthetic is aimed at being historically accurate - more like, assembling a new look out of vintage parts. Reminds me of retro-pin up and burlesque in that sense. Not so much a fuzzy view of the past, but trying to hoist up an ideal that we all accept never actually existed.
For what it's worth, I've never met a steampunk who would actually want to live in Victorian times - usually they just want to wear the corsets.
People who fetishize that period are generally the fringe of the movement - Goths were like that too - you'd get a few people who were really really into Victoriana, but most just liked the look.
Quote from: /b/earman on February 22, 2014, 01:57:26 AM
Dear Nostalgia assbags,
We don't fucking care how "hard" your life was, or how the "good old days" were better. Go fuck yourself hard for trying to convince me that two world wars, Jim Crow laws, and not having the internet connecting me to the rest or the world and having access to free information in a matter of seconds is better.
There is nothing amazing about reading porno by candle light, and small pox.
One last thing, the Beatles fucking sucked get over it.
Sincerely, 2014
Try to convince me that there are better platform games than Megaman 2. Try to convince me that the original zelda doesn't still beat the pants off most of the zelda games ever released. Try to convince me that Twilight was a better movie than Lost Boys. Tell me that chiptunes and 8-bit art style wasn't worth revisiting. Tell me these sweet lies, because I want to believe.
Quote from: monad on February 23, 2014, 10:51:50 PM
Pæs: In an ideal world, perhaps everyone who made a decision for themselves would understand that the same decision might not be the best for other people. It doesn't seem to be the case that it is. I imagine even the Amish believe that everyone else is going to hell. That is a value judgement. I am not trying to say you are wrong, just that both interpretations are valid.
Strawman Alert!
Paes had not mentioned the Amish.
Paes was attempting to have an actual discussion with you regarding the difference between people who prefer small close-knit communities that try to produce as much of their neccesities as possible without relying on Wallmart and people who are woman hating bigots that consider slavery a good thing.
For this I hate you.
You're not alone there.
Quote from: :regret: on February 25, 2014, 07:29:21 PM
Quote from: monad on February 23, 2014, 10:51:50 PM
Pæs: In an ideal world, perhaps everyone who made a decision for themselves would understand that the same decision might not be the best for other people. It doesn't seem to be the case that it is. I imagine even the Amish believe that everyone else is going to hell. That is a value judgement. I am not trying to say you are wrong, just that both interpretations are valid.
Strawman Alert!
Paes had not mentioned the Amish.
Paes was attempting to have an actual discussion with you regarding the difference between people who prefer small close-knit communities that try to produce as much of their neccesities as possible without relying on Wallmart and people who are woman hating bigots that consider slavery a good thing.
For this I hate you.
I had given up on communicating in good faith by the time I read that, but yeah.