So, how do we research this unknown horror?
What do we call it when we are repulsed by a part of someone else's perception of the natural order? Like, say, racism? Would this fall under Horror? Or does Horror exclusively refer to that which has not been encountered before?
:mittens:
I love it - HORROR: reaction to the unknown unknown, the thing which comes from outside your mental model of the world, thereby shattering it
EGADS! IT'S ALIVE!!
What do we call it when we are repulsed by a part of someone else's perception of the natural order? Like, say, racism? Would this fall under Horror? Or does Horror exclusively refer to that which has not been encountered before?
Horror consists of new, undesirable additions to your perception of the natural order. Racism is a loathing thing, except for the odd hippy who thinks it's dead and gone, and then witnesses a teabagger rally.
I like this--gels nicely with what I've experienced and observed. I look forward to your reports on your experiments, Herr Doktor.
Good stuff.
Testing out the terminology: Lovecraft wrote athiest Horror stories, because the existing theological-based 'horror-stories' stopped inspiring Horror, just dredging up existing Fears.
When you said 'horror doesn't have to be a bad thing', is it still understood that there is inherent discomfort in it? e.g. the singing roses.... they certainly aren't dangerous (until they find out that you're a common mobile vulgaris) but it does mean a turbulent rearrangement of your view on things is in order...
When you said 'horror doesn't have to be a bad thing', is it still understood that there is inherent discomfort in it? e.g. the singing roses.... they certainly aren't dangerous (until they find out that you're a common mobile vulgaris) but it does mean a turbulent rearrangement of your view on things is in order...
Absolutely. And that's where the emotion "horror" comes in. It's the feeling of having your worldview broken, for good or for ill. Mostly for ill.
What I like about these terms is that they match up to my own experiences so cleanly. I can easily recall moments of horror and fear and loathing as distinct emotional states that are rarely ambiguous.
Good stuff.
Testing out the terminology: Lovecraft wrote athiest Horror stories, because the existing theological-based 'horror-stories' stopped inspiring Horror, just dredging up existing Fears.
Correct. That's also why he tried to convey "the unknowable" (badly), and made use of devices like "alien geometry". He was trying to convey horror as strangeness, not just tentacles and gills.
Posting to stay posted
Edit: Is it possible to be in a state where horror is not possible anymore, and everything goes under fear and loathing? I guess what I'm saying is that I haven't really experienced horror to my recollection, anytime in the past couple of years at least, and I'm wondering if this would hamper any attempts to study horrorology, or if there's just a lot I haven't encountered yet...
From what I understand, Discordians have rather flexible worldviews. "It is my firm belief that it is a mistake to hold firm beliefs." Thus, by getting rid of all firm beliefs, would one not be able to rid oneself of the ability to experience horror? I'm talking about cultivating an ultimate acceptance of whatever the universe throws at you, so that nothing is unexpected simply because nothing is expected. If that makes sense. :|
Also, I'm going to infer from the above that the younger one is, the more often one will experience horror, as the young have narrow worldviews and thus can't quite avoid making generalizations about everything else that will often be toppled with horror. Thus, can horror be said to be a necessary part of building worldviews?
Well, not a necessary part but it is a response, and a natural one, so shouldn't it serve some purpose other than paralyzing us and making people stress out?
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.
The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.
I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.
The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.
I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.
The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.
I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.
Laughter is the primate response to Horror. The mind only draws the distinction between the highest levels of Horror and Samadhi/Illumination after the fact (after the chemicals have already hit your system and as they're burning off), in an attempt to integrate the experience into the personal narrative. You seem to have an emotional bias towards the word, and may be using it in a different context from the one Dok Howl intended (which to me doesn't draw those distinctions because he's defining scientific variables and part of the definition includes: Fear =/= Horror, but they can be found together.)
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
Telarus and Twiddleton did a better job of replying to this, but allow me to be blunt:
Because some stuff is pretty awful, and knowing it leaves a bad taste in your brain no matter how hard you try to appreciate the learning experience. Think of Horror (capital "H", to denote Doktor Howl's specific use of the word) as the 'darker side' of Enlightenment...
...and then realize that that's a false dichotomy yadda yadda blah blah.
I am tired and should not be trying to discuss these things right now.
As a bit of fleshing that thought out, something happened, it was unexpected, and it led to Rage, pure Rage, and I realized I could not possibly act on it with out consequences. Then I got this cold feeling, realizing that this person would someday be shit in a hole, just as I would, and it didn't matter, and it caused me to laugh, just thinking that. That what this person did to enrage me, just didn't fucking matter.
I called it Endarkenment at the time.
Consider: An infant is only afraid of two things...Loud noises and heights. He hasn't yet had enough experience with the world to view anything else as a scary part of the natural order. As adults, we know that there are demented people who like to molest and/or harm infants...This is a disgusting thing, but part of the natural order of how the world works, so we loathe it. A child has no idea of this, and when the concept is introduced as part of the natural order of things, the child feels horror.
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment?
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.
The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.
I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.
What happened was this: They showed a person holding a brick. The person let go of the brick. The brick fell upwards.
I suppose this falls somewhere in line with Dok's "roses singing" example. The interesting part of the experiment was of course when they filmed people's reaction to seeing this video:
An adult would frown, trying to understand, not liking that he couldn't. (Then probably concluding it must be some kind of trick)
A child would laugh.
That was it. Show a child something that doesn't fit their current worldview and they will laugh. Say, a magic trick, make something appear or disappear. The child will laugh. The adult will instinctively try to figure it out--unless they are smart and know that in order to fully enjoy the magic show they have to suspend their skepticism for a while and willingly choose to go along for the ride. (as far as my understanding goes it is the latter kind of mental state that mentalists/hypnotists exploit in their subjects)
The obvious hypothesis-explanation is of course that the young child still has to learn a lot about the world. So, encountering something unexpected, something that lies outside of the path of their current world-model, is a positive experience for them (not talking about molesters here, but singing roses), because it provides them with an opportunity to learn.
There is something in adult behaviour that makes this a relatively negative experience for them, it's probably something really obvious, but I can't come up with it right now (anyone?).
Thanks Dok, thanks Cainad for the explanations.
Hm... Dok, are you sure the word Horror is good for this? Based on your definition, it doesn't have to be a negative emotion at all; yet the word Horror has mostly negative connotations and is connected to Loathing and Fear. Based on your definition, is is connected also in the same way to Enlightenment and Love.
What happened was this: They showed a person holding a brick. The person let go of the brick. The brick fell upwards.
I suppose this falls somewhere in line with Dok's "roses singing" example. The interesting part of the experiment was of course when they filmed people's reaction to seeing this video:
An adult would frown, trying to understand, not liking that he couldn't. (Then probably concluding it must be some kind of trick)
A child would laugh.
That was it. Show a child something that doesn't fit their current worldview and they will laugh. Say, a magic trick, make something appear or disappear. The child will laugh. The adult will instinctively try to figure it out--unless they are smart and know that in order to fully enjoy the magic show they have to suspend their skepticism for a while and willingly choose to go along for the ride. (as far as my understanding goes it is the latter kind of mental state that mentalists/hypnotists exploit in their subjects)
The obvious hypothesis-explanation is of course that the young child still has to learn a lot about the world. So, encountering something unexpected, something that lies outside of the path of their current world-model, is a positive experience for them (not talking about molesters here, but singing roses), because it provides them with an opportunity to learn.
There is something in adult behaviour that makes this a relatively negative experience for them, it's probably something really obvious, but I can't come up with it right now (anyone?).
Eh, good point. Learningis goodmeans new reward chemical pathways, unlearningbadmeans fighting against existing reward chemical pathways. Makes sense.
1. Fear: The sensation that something bad in the natural order of things is about to happen to you. Example: A dog approaches you, snarling and growling. Your reaction is fear; something very bad is potentially about to happen. Your fight or flight reflex kicks in, and you drop down a few neural circuits. Another example: You are a soldier on the front line, and someone starts to shoot at you. This is part of the natural order of things for that environment, and causes fear rather than any other emotion. How you REACT to fear will vary from person to person and event to event, and isn't really relevant to the definition (at least for our purposes here).
2. Loathing:: The knowledge and distaste of something undesirable about the natural order of things, but isn't a direct, fear-causing condition (though anxiety is definitely part of it). Example: The knowledge that the next door neighbor owns a mean dog that occasionally menaces you, but isn't doing so at the moment...Or the soldier on furlough from the front, who knows that he is due to return to the fighting soon. Displeasure, hatred, and anxiety are the root emotions, and again, the reaction may vary (see above).
3. Horror: The sensation of being confronted with something utterly outside of your perception of the natural order of things. Example: Same dog confronts you and starts singing Elton John tunes. Or the soldier wakes up to find that his entire unit has pulled back in the night, leaving him to die (He has been ingrained with the belief that no man gets left behind).
For a child, encountering something unexpected is a chance to learn something new, which is pleasant. To an adult, it means they have to unlearn something old, which is always unpleasant, regardless of Machines and social conditioning.
For a child, encountering something unexpected is a chance to learn something new, which is pleasant. To an adult, it means they have to unlearn something old, which is always unpleasant, regardless of Machines and social conditioning.
Why?
Why is it always unpleasant?
Don't get me wrong, I can feel it is unpleasant, I agree it usually is, but why is that?
It's almost so intuitively unpleasant, you look straight past it without realising it doesn't actually make sense, why would adapting, unlearning, changing our world-view automatically be something unpleasant?
Isn't that one of the lessons you can take from Discordia, the neophilic one? New stuff is awesome, smash your reality tunnel, and all that?
Why?> But it has to be done, and you'll feel better afterwards.
Why is it always unpleasant?
Don't get me wrong, I can feel it is unpleasant, I agree it usually is, but why is that?
It's almost so intuitively unpleasant, you look straight past it without realising it doesn't actually make sense, why would adapting, unlearning, changing our world-view automatically be something unpleasant?
Isn't that one of the lessons you can take from Discordia, the neophilic one? New stuff is awesome, smash your reality tunnel, and all that?
Debugging a program that was working fine just a moment ago is unpleasant, because it's hard work. But it has to be done, and you'll feel better afterwards.
The Buddhist Sutra of Mindfulness speaks about the meditation on the corpse: meditate on the decomposition of the body, how the body bloats and turns violet, how it is eaten by worms until only bits of blood and flesh still cling to the bones, meditate up to the point where only white bones remain, which in turn are slowly worn away and turn into dust...
1) Horror relates to something outside of our field of knowledge about the natural world. Assuming I have interpreted the previous posts correctly, would miracles, then, be included into horror? Unless one accepts what the universe throws at them, as mentioned from earlier responses, an act of God would in fact shake one's understanding of their environment and thus horror comes into play. Am I right on this statement?
Here's two things I don't quite get yet:
1) Horror relates to something outside of our field of knowledge about the natural world. Assuming I have interpreted the previous posts correctly, would miracles, then, be included into horror? Unless one accepts what the universe throws at them, as mentioned from earlier responses, an act of God would in fact shake one's understanding of their environment and thus horror comes into play. Am I right on this statement?
2) If fear is the feeling that something bad is about to happen, then what is courage? Would courage be simply the "fight" response to any fear-inducing scenario? If so, then everyone would have fear and that the term "fight your fears" would be questioned. Now that I think about it, what does it truly mean to use the "fight" response to fear?
All right, Phox. I might have missed something in this thread.
Oh, duh. How did I miss that? Okay, that answers my questions.
Now I'm thinking about horror flics. I guess from this logic, not all movies in that genre are actually horror.
So, if it forces me to unlearn something, this means the appropriate response is horror?... Sure, I get a little ticked about the inconvenience, but I've gotten pretty used to it by now... Still, the fear of the unknown does seem to strike some people rather deeply.
!= means "does not equal".
Just saying.
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
No, they experience fear.
I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
No, they experience fear.
I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.
I must admit I am a B horror movie nut. :cry:
Pray for me.
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
No, they experience fear.
I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.
I must admit I am a B horror movie nut. :cry:
Pray for me.
Oh dear Gods Charley, you and I hold something in common....
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
No, they experience fear.
I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.
I must admit I am a B horror movie nut. :cry:
Pray for me.
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
No, they experience fear.
I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.
I must admit I am a B horror movie nut. :cry:
Pray for me.
Oh dear Gods Charley, you and I hold something in common....
We need better horror movies.
Roger speaks the universal language of hate.
We need better horror movies.
Wishes, commands, et al...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419RBC6J4JL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I don't really ever seem to experience fear anymore.
I just don't feel loathing for anything anymore.
Horror- As I'm thinking about this right now it stands to reason that If I cannot really muster the imagination to feel fear or loathing at this point what could ever foreseeably ever happen for me to feel genuine horror?
I don't really ever seem to experience fear anymore.
I just don't feel loathing for anything anymore.
Horror- As I'm thinking about this right now it stands to reason that If I cannot really muster the imagination to feel fear or loathing at this point what could ever foreseeably ever happen for me to feel genuine horror?
So, in short, you're a food tube.
I don't really ever seem to experience fear anymore.
I just don't feel loathing for anything anymore.
Horror- As I'm thinking about this right now it stands to reason that If I cannot really muster the imagination to feel fear or loathing at this point what could ever foreseeably ever happen for me to feel genuine horror?
So, in short, you're a food tube.
I suppose someone like you could define it like that and think its funny.
It's had many many names.
None really do it justice.
But I'm Just some dumb hippy that listens to death metal and reads silly new age books that he thinks are ridiculous.
You've had me pegged all along.
Your sharp ;)
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok? He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!
In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.
I did pretty well.
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok? He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!
I was bitter about education my first day of kindergarten.
Alright everyone get in a single file.
Fuck This!
The American education system is a fucking sham.
In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.
I did pretty well.
The stoners who would cut class to come out to the woods and hang out with me and learn about what I was reading would get credits for it.
My principal and guidance counselor thought pretty highly of me.
I aced the state required testing and graduated without ever sitting in a classroom ;)
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok? He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!
I was bitter about education my first day of kindergarten.
Alright everyone get in a single file.
Fuck This!
The American education system is a fucking sham.
In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.
I did pretty well.
The stoners who would cut class to come out to the woods and hang out with me and learn about what I was reading would get credits for it.
My principal and guidance counselor thought pretty highly of me.
I aced the state required testing and graduated without ever sitting in a classroom ;)
I dropped out of third grade and taught myself under conditions of poverty, deprivation, abuse, and neglect. I had a bicycle and a library card... the library was five miles away.
Yet, miraculously, I STILL learned critical thinking.
Lol.
For a guy who doesn't care what anyone here thinks of him, he seems mighty desperate to impress, what with his tales about his big-breasted Norwegian girlfriend and his autodidactic prowess.
Lol.
For a guy who doesn't care what anyone here thinks of him, he seems mighty desperate to impress, what with his tales about his big-breasted Norwegian girlfriend and his autodidactic prowess.
In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.
I did pretty well.
Yes, that Wilhelm Reich Orgone technology has made you the man you are today.
Did I ever tell you about the time I proved Einstein's theory of relativity wrong? Funny story.
Did I ever tell you about the time I proved Einstein's theory of relativity wrong? Funny story.
Jesus Christ. :lulz:
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok? He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!
I was bitter about education my first day of kindergarten.
Alright everyone get in a single file.
Fuck This!
The American education system is a fucking sham.
In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.
I did pretty well.
The stoners who would cut class to come out to the woods and hang out with me and learn about what I was reading would get credits for it.
My principal and guidance counselor thought pretty highly of me.
I aced the state required testing and graduated without ever sitting in a classroom ;)
I dropped out of third grade and taught myself under conditions of poverty, deprivation, abuse, and neglect. I had a bicycle and a library card... the library was five miles away.
Yet, miraculously, I STILL learned critical thinking.
But you know NOTHING of monopole magnets and perpetual motion! NOTHING!
Recognition is the monster...Sounds fucking fine but this cognitive shrink I like to sodomize reminds me a little of the Semmelweis reflex. Really, you should look her up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GyVx28R9-s