Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Think for Yourself, Schmuck! => Horrorology => Topic started by: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 06:44:54 pm

Title: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 06:44:54 pm
In describing the coming present weird times, and the study of horror that defines the Doktor's role in life, I think we have to nail down some terminology.  I'd like to propose the following definitions:

1.  Fear:  The sensation that something bad in the natural order of things is about to happen to you.  Example:  A dog approaches you, snarling and growling.  Your reaction is fear; something very bad is potentially about to happen.  Your fight or flight reflex kicks in, and you drop down a few neural circuits.  Another example:  You are a soldier on the front line, and someone starts to shoot at you.  This is part of the natural order of things for that environment, and causes fear rather than any other emotion.  How you REACT to fear will vary from person to person and event to event, and isn't really relevant to the definition (at least for our purposes here).

2.  Loathing::  The knowledge and distaste of something undesirable about the natural order of things, but isn't a direct, fear-causing condition (though anxiety is definitely part of it).  Example:  The knowledge that the next door neighbor owns a mean dog that occasionally menaces you, but isn't doing so at the moment...Or the soldier on furlough from the front, who knows that he is due to return to the fighting soon.  Displeasure, hatred, and anxiety are the root emotions, and again, the reaction may vary (see above).

3.  Horror:  The sensation of being confronted with something utterly outside of your perception of the natural order of things.  Example:  Same dog confronts you and starts singing Elton John tunes.  Or the soldier wakes up to find that his entire unit has pulled back in the night, leaving him to die (He has been ingrained with the belief that no man gets left behind).

Consider:  An infant is only afraid of two things...Loud noises and heights.  He hasn't yet had enough experience with the world to view anything else as a scary part of the natural order.  As adults, we know that there are demented people who like to molest and/or harm infants...This is a disgusting thing, but part of the natural order of how the world works, so we loathe it.  A child has no idea of this, and when the concept is introduced as part of the natural order of things, the child feels horror.  Once the child becomes accustomed to this new view, loathing kicks in...And a parent who loses track of her child at a crowded department store knows the natural order of things, and is directly confronted with the potential that someone has done something with her child, and you're back to fear.

So as we study the present century, and the events that lead up to it, we can distinguish between direct threats, bad things we know for certain will occur, and new things that increase our knowledge of the natural order of the world in ways that will be undesirable.  The first two have been studied (and if we worry about them, then we'll never get anything done), the third is our purview:  The Weird.  

It's a weird century, and we Doktors are Strangehunters.  Don't tell me about war, I know about war.  Tell me the new or at least previously unknown stuff.  We can predict those things based on fear and loathing, what we need to research is the horror.

Okay for now,
Dok




Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Adios on August 13, 2010, 06:51:34 pm
So, how do we research this unknown horror?
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 06:53:36 pm
So, how do we research this unknown horror?

That will be covered in the next few bits.  I wanted to nail the terminology down first.

I plan to do an obscene amount of work on this for the next 2 weeks, then get offended by something and fuck off on a tantrum for a while, only to return to it a week or so later.

Dok,
Is learning to plan around his ideosyncracies.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: President Television on August 13, 2010, 07:03:31 pm
What do we call it when we are repulsed by a part of someone else's perception of the natural order? Like, say, racism? Would this fall under Horror? Or does Horror exclusively refer to that which has not been encountered before?
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 07:05:25 pm
What do we call it when we are repulsed by a part of someone else's perception of the natural order? Like, say, racism? Would this fall under Horror? Or does Horror exclusively refer to that which has not been encountered before?

Horror consists of new, undesirable additions to your perception of the natural order.  Racism is a loathing thing, except for the odd hippy who thinks it's dead and gone, and then witnesses a teabagger rally.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Cramulus on August 13, 2010, 07:07:26 pm
:mittens:

I love it - HORROR: reaction to the unknown unknown, the thing which comes from outside your mental model of the world, thereby shattering it

EGADS! IT'S ALIVE!!
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 07:16:18 pm
:mittens:

I love it - HORROR: reaction to the unknown unknown, the thing which comes from outside your mental model of the world, thereby shattering it

EGADS! IT'S ALIVE!!

Yep.  That can be good or bad, depending on both what that change in perception is, and how you yourself react to change.  Some people have a positive reaction to ALL change (which is kinda sick), some people have a positive reaction to some change, and a bad reaction to others, and some people have a bad reaction to ALL change (most of humanity).

Horror doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing.  HP Lovecraft said that the essence of horror was walking into your garden and finding that your roses are singing.  I'd kind of dig that, even though it would definitely make my hair stand on end.

On the other hand, I've had experience with homocides, and they're frequently far worse than what you hear on TV.  Finding out that some people like to rub one out in their victim's wound(s), or even give the wound a little lovin' (I wish I was joking about this) alters your perception of reality in a way that is DEFINITELY NOT enjoyable, and in fact leaves scars in your mind.

Both are horror.  Obviously, the former is preferable to the latter.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: President Television on August 13, 2010, 07:17:22 pm
What do we call it when we are repulsed by a part of someone else's perception of the natural order? Like, say, racism? Would this fall under Horror? Or does Horror exclusively refer to that which has not been encountered before?

Horror consists of new, undesirable additions to your perception of the natural order.  Racism is a loathing thing, except for the odd hippy who thinks it's dead and gone, and then witnesses a teabagger rally.


Yeah, that occurred to me as I was typing the post but I wasn't sure how to put it in so I left it out.
Anyway, I'm liking the new terminology.

Horror: NAMBLA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association) for many people. I'd say a major sign of horror is that your initial reaction, upon hearing of it, is "that can't be true." Right?
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 07:31:17 pm
Thanks, BB.  I'll split that out later (in it's entirety), when I get this ball rolling this weekend.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Jenne on August 13, 2010, 07:37:38 pm
I like this--gels nicely with what I've experienced and observed.  I look forward to your reports on your experiments, Herr Doktor.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 07:39:00 pm
I like this--gels nicely with what I've experienced and observed.  I look forward to your reports on your experiments, Herr Doktor.

I'm going to begin with some methodology first, then begin some "field work", alongside some observations garnered from the news, etc.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Dysfunctional Cunt on August 13, 2010, 07:43:14 pm
I'm really looking forward to this. 

Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Jasper on August 13, 2010, 08:00:47 pm
This is genius. 
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Telarus on August 13, 2010, 08:07:21 pm
Good stuff.


Testing out the terminology: Lovecraft wrote athiest Horror stories, because the existing theological-based 'horror-stories' stopped inspiring Horror, just dredging up existing Fears.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 08:09:13 pm
Good stuff.


Testing out the terminology: Lovecraft wrote athiest Horror stories, because the existing theological-based 'horror-stories' stopped inspiring Horror, just dredging up existing Fears.

Correct.  That's also why he tried to convey "the unknowable" (badly), and made use of devices like "alien geometry".  He was trying to convey horror as strangeness, not just tentacles and gills.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Elder Iptuous on August 13, 2010, 08:27:05 pm
Nice!  looking forward to your studies, Dok!

When you said 'horror doesn't have to be a bad thing', is it still understood that there is inherent discomfort in it?  e.g. the singing roses.... they certainly aren't dangerous (until they find out that you're a common mobile vulgaris) but it does mean a turbulent rearrangement of your view on things is in order...

Although i enjoyed HPL, i always was amused by his descriptions starting out with the words 'utterly indescribable in human language' and then proceeding to use about 3/4 of said language to nail the subject down to a T.

(also I'll do my damnedest to give someone else a shot at saying the wrong thing, this time.  :wink:)
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 08:32:08 pm
When you said 'horror doesn't have to be a bad thing', is it still understood that there is inherent discomfort in it?  e.g. the singing roses.... they certainly aren't dangerous (until they find out that you're a common mobile vulgaris) but it does mean a turbulent rearrangement of your view on things is in order...

Absolutely.  And that's where the emotion "horror" comes in.  It's the feeling of having your worldview broken, for good or for ill.  Mostly for ill.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Kai on August 13, 2010, 09:23:49 pm
When you said 'horror doesn't have to be a bad thing', is it still understood that there is inherent discomfort in it?  e.g. the singing roses.... they certainly aren't dangerous (until they find out that you're a common mobile vulgaris) but it does mean a turbulent rearrangement of your view on things is in order...

Absolutely.  And that's where the emotion "horror" comes in.  It's the feeling of having your worldview broken, for good or for ill.  Mostly for ill.


Horror: the feeling of having your worldview broken, usually for ill.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Jasper on August 14, 2010, 03:06:06 am
What I like about these terms is that they match up to my own experiences so cleanly.  I can easily recall moments of horror and fear and loathing as distinct emotional states that are rarely ambiguous.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Adios on August 14, 2010, 04:53:49 am
Introduce us to hell, Dok. I am ready for it.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Hoser McRhizzy on August 14, 2010, 09:37:50 pm
What I like about these terms is that they match up to my own experiences so cleanly.  I can easily recall moments of horror and fear and loathing as distinct emotional states that are rarely ambiguous.

^This right here^

Great idea, Dok.

 :mittens:
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on August 14, 2010, 09:57:07 pm
:mittens: for the OP. These are really good definitions, IMO, and will probably influence the way I use these terms in the future.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Requia ☣ on August 16, 2010, 01:41:10 am
Good stuff.


Testing out the terminology: Lovecraft wrote athiest Horror stories, because the existing theological-based 'horror-stories' stopped inspiring Horror, just dredging up existing Fears.

Correct.  That's also why he tried to convey "the unknowable" (badly), and made use of devices like "alien geometry".  He was trying to convey horror as strangeness, not just tentacles and gills.

I think this sums up pretty damned well why so many modern mythos fics suck.  We all know Cthulu by now, there's no Horror anymore.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on August 16, 2010, 01:45:11 am
Posting to stay posted

Edit: Is it possible to be in a state where horror is not possible anymore, and everything goes under fear and loathing? I guess what I'm saying is that I haven't really experienced horror to my recollection, anytime in the past couple of years at least, and I'm wondering if this would hamper any attempts to study horrorology, or if there's just a lot I haven't encountered yet...
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on August 16, 2010, 02:17:01 am
Posting to stay posted

Edit: Is it possible to be in a state where horror is not possible anymore, and everything goes under fear and loathing? I guess what I'm saying is that I haven't really experienced horror to my recollection, anytime in the past couple of years at least, and I'm wondering if this would hamper any attempts to study horrorology, or if there's just a lot I haven't encountered yet...

I feel kind of similarly, and the bolded portion is my take on it. I think what happens is that, early on in one's study of horrorology, one learns to accept that Horror is going to happen to you, that Horror is a part of life.

But when it stares you right in the face, you still feel it strong as ever... I found that out a little over a week ago, when I was threatened with death from some random stranger in a car while I was walking home at night in what I always (and by "always" I mean since like toddlerhood) thought of as a very safe and quiet residential neighborhood. The idea that someone might actually seek to do me harm without provocation on my part was as Horrifying as it was Fear-inducing, since my previous worldview told me that that sort of thing doesn't happen around here. Indeed, I'd never been threatened like that before, anywhere.




P.S. For those curious, I escaped unharmed by judicious application of my Wimp-Fu skillz: I hid in someone's bushes until the person threatening me lost interest and left.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 02:33:07 am
From what I understand, Discordians have rather flexible worldviews. "It is my firm belief that it is a mistake to hold firm beliefs." Thus, by getting rid of all firm beliefs, would one not be able to rid oneself of the ability to experience horror? I'm talking about cultivating an ultimate acceptance of whatever the universe throws at you, so that nothing is unexpected simply because nothing is expected. If that makes sense.  :|

Also, I'm going to infer from the above that the younger one is, the more often one will experience horror, as the young have narrow worldviews and thus can't quite avoid making generalizations about everything else that will often be toppled with horror. Thus, can horror be said to be a necessary part of building worldviews?

Well, not a necessary part but it is a response, and a natural one, so shouldn't it serve some purpose other than paralyzing us and making people stress out?
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: BadBeast on August 16, 2010, 02:50:44 am
I think nothing less than Rapid onset Cataleptic Disassociation, or Retro-Cognitive Asphasia would be sufficient to cause an actual immunity to Horror. However the level of awareness the subject is experiencing, must be carefully mapped by MRS+CAT Brainscans, before, and during any exposure to Horror.
Horror perception is usually localised, within the Medulla Oblongata. However, in  97% of test cases, when the Medulla region has been surgically removed, increased Alpha activity in the Pineal gland has been observed. Whether this activity has any cognitive resonance in the frontal, or even pre-frontal lobe area is open to speculation.  
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on August 16, 2010, 02:54:02 am
From what I understand, Discordians have rather flexible worldviews. "It is my firm belief that it is a mistake to hold firm beliefs." Thus, by getting rid of all firm beliefs, would one not be able to rid oneself of the ability to experience horror? I'm talking about cultivating an ultimate acceptance of whatever the universe throws at you, so that nothing is unexpected simply because nothing is expected. If that makes sense.  :|

Yeah, but good luck trying not to have expectations. As long as one has a worldview, one will have expectations. The best one can do, IMO, is learn to cope with these expectations being shattered.

You're not wrong, per se, it's just an implausible scenario.

Quote
Also, I'm going to infer from the above that the younger one is, the more often one will experience horror, as the young have narrow worldviews and thus can't quite avoid making generalizations about everything else that will often be toppled with horror. Thus, can horror be said to be a necessary part of building worldviews?

Well, not a necessary part but it is a response, and a natural one, so shouldn't it serve some purpose other than paralyzing us and making people stress out?

Being young myself, I may not be in a position of authority, but I'm gonna say yes to this. Once you experience Horror (that is, if you don't try to blot it out of your mind because it's too Horrible), it changes your worldview. It's all part of learning and living, Horrifying though it may be.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 03:23:39 am
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."

The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.

The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.

I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on August 16, 2010, 03:33:10 am
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."

The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.

The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.

I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.


That, I believe, is what makes one a Doktor of Horror.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Telarus on August 16, 2010, 03:46:50 am
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."

The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.

The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.

I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.

Laughter is the primate response to Horror. The mind only draws the distinction between the highest levels of Horror and Samadhi/Illumination after the fact (after the chemicals have already hit your system and as they're burning off), in an attempt to integrate the experience into the personal narrative. You seem to have an emotional bias towards the word, and may be using it in a different context from the one Dok Howl intended (which to me doesn't draw those distinctions because he's defining scientific variables and part of the definition includes: Fear =/= Horror, but they can be found together.)
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on August 16, 2010, 04:05:25 am
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."

The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.

The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.

I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.

Laughter is the primate response to Horror. The mind only draws the distinction between the highest levels of Horror and Samadhi/Illumination after the fact (after the chemicals have already hit your system and as they're burning off), in an attempt to integrate the experience into the personal narrative. You seem to have an emotional bias towards the word, and may be using it in a different context from the one Dok Howl intended (which to me doesn't draw those distinctions because he's defining scientific variables and part of the definition includes: Fear =/= Horror, but they can be found together.)

Horror is a form of aversion, that may bring on horrormirth, or may overlap with Fear, or both, yes?
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on August 16, 2010, 04:22:01 am
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."

Telarus and Twiddleton did a better job of replying to this, but allow me to be blunt:

Because some stuff is pretty awful, and knowing it leaves a bad taste in your brain no matter how hard you try to appreciate the learning experience. Think of Horror (capital "H", to denote Doktor Howl's specific use of the word) as the 'darker side' of Enlightenment...

...and then realize that that's a false dichotomy yadda yadda blah blah.


I am tired and should not be trying to discuss these things right now.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on August 16, 2010, 04:26:57 am
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."

Telarus and Twiddleton did a better job of replying to this, but allow me to be blunt:

Because some stuff is pretty awful, and knowing it leaves a bad taste in your brain no matter how hard you try to appreciate the learning experience. Think of Horror (capital "H", to denote Doktor Howl's specific use of the word) as the 'darker side' of Enlightenment...

...and then realize that that's a false dichotomy yadda yadda blah blah.


I am tired and should not be trying to discuss these things right now.

Ah, Endarkenment. I've had Endarkenment. If my interpretation here is correct, I am ready to become a Doktor.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on August 16, 2010, 04:29:06 am
As a bit of fleshing that thought out, something happened, it was unexpected, and it led to Rage, pure Rage, and I realized I could not possibly act on it with out consequences. Then I got this cold feeling, realizing that this person would someday be shit in a hole, just as I would, and it didn't matter, and it caused me to laugh, just thinking that. That what this person did to enrage me, just didn't fucking matter.

I called it Endarkenment at the time.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Telarus on August 16, 2010, 06:30:44 am
As a bit of fleshing that thought out, something happened, it was unexpected, and it led to Rage, pure Rage, and I realized I could not possibly act on it with out consequences. Then I got this cold feeling, realizing that this person would someday be shit in a hole, just as I would, and it didn't matter, and it caused me to laugh, just thinking that. That what this person did to enrage me, just didn't fucking matter.

I called it Endarkenment at the time.

The Buddhist Sutra of Mindfulness speaks about the meditation on the corpse: meditate on the decomposition of the body, how the body bloats and turns violet, how it is eaten by worms until only bits of blood and flesh still cling to the bones, meditate up to the point where only white bones remain, which in turn are slowly worn away and turn into dust. Meditate like that, knowing that your own body will undergo the same process. Meditate on the corpse until you are calm and at peace, until your mind and heart are light and tranquil and a smile appears on your face. Thus, by overcoming revulsion and fear, life will be seen as infinitely precious, every second of it worth living.  --Thich Nhat Hanh, on the 10 Mediations on the Asubas (Foul Objects)

The 10 Asubas are:

1. Uddhumataka: a rotten, bloated corpse, its body all swollen and its features distended out of shape.
2. Vinilaka: a livid corpse, with patchy discoloration -- greenish, reddish, yellowish -- from the decomposition of the blood.
3. Vipubbaka: a festering corpse, oozing lymph and pus from its various orifices.
4. Vichiddaka: a corpse falling apart, the pieces scattered about, radiating their stench.
5. Vikkhayittaka: a corpse that various animals, such as dogs, are gnawing, or that vultures are picking at, or that crows are fighting over, pulling it apart in different directions.
6. Vikkhittaka: corpses scattered about, i.e., unclaimed bodies that have been thrown together in a pile -- face up, face down, old bones and new scattered all over the place.
7. Hatavikkhittaka: the corpse of a person violently murdered, slashed and stabbed with various weapons, covered with wounds -- short, long, shallow, deep -- some parts hacked so that they're almost detached.
8. Lohitaka: a corpse covered with blood, like the hands of a butcher, all red and raw-smelling.
9. Puluvaka: a corpse infested with worms: long worms, short worms, black, green, and yellow worms, squeezed into the ears, eyes, and mouth; squirming and squiggling about, filling the various parts of the body like a net full of fish that has fallen open.
10. Atthika: a skeleton, some of the joints already separated, others not yet, the bones -- whitish, yellowish, discolored -- scattered near and far all over the place.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on August 16, 2010, 06:33:50 am
But is this relevant to Horror?

ie, was my Endarkenment a recognition of Horror?
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Freeky on August 16, 2010, 06:37:52 am
These definitions are awesome, Dok. I look forward to reading more. :D
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Triple Zero on August 16, 2010, 07:31:00 am
Dok, I'm echoing the praise earlier in this thread, very intriguing!

There's one bit that kept nagging at me while reading the thread though, until I realized what was about it, Telarus touched upon it for a little bit already:

Consider:  An infant is only afraid of two things...Loud noises and heights.  He hasn't yet had enough experience with the world to view anything else as a scary part of the natural order.  As adults, we know that there are demented people who like to molest and/or harm infants...This is a disgusting thing, but part of the natural order of how the world works, so we loathe it.  A child has no idea of this, and when the concept is introduced as part of the natural order of things, the child feels horror.

See, I don't remember this. Maybe because when my parents told me about such people I just categorized them with the Wicked Witch and the Big Bad Wolf from the fairytales. But that's not exactly it ...

Then I remembered part of a documentary I saw more than a decade ago. This was before the time of CGI and other video trickery. Well, there was video trickery of course, but people didn't automatically instantly suspect it, like today's hordes of YouTube commenters calling everything "FAKE!!!".

What happened was this: They showed a person holding a brick. The person let go of the brick. The brick fell upwards.

I suppose this falls somewhere in line with Dok's "roses singing" example. The interesting part of the experiment was of course when they filmed people's reaction to seeing this video:

An adult would frown, trying to understand, not liking that he couldn't. (Then probably concluding it must be some kind of trick)

A child would laugh.

That was it. Show a child something that doesn't fit their current worldview and they will laugh. Say, a magic trick, make something appear or disappear. The child will laugh. The adult will instinctively try to figure it out--unless they are smart and know that in order to fully enjoy the magic show they have to suspend their skepticism for a while and willingly choose to go along for the ride. (as far as my understanding goes it is the latter kind of mental state that mentalists/hypnotists exploit in their subjects)

The obvious hypothesis-explanation is of course that the young child still has to learn a lot about the world. So, encountering something unexpected, something that lies outside of the path of their current world-model, is a positive experience for them (not talking about molesters here, but singing roses), because it provides them with an opportunity to learn.
There is something in adult behaviour that makes this a relatively negative experience for them, it's probably something really obvious, but I can't come up with it right now (anyone?).

Something about Discordians is the desire to preserve this child-like laughter and joy at the unknown. RAW called it neophilia.

Then there is Horrormirth. As Dok said in his 4th post ITT (reply to Cram), it can be a perverted joy in anything that is new and terrible (and if you're addicted to the new, you can find a lot of it in the terrible), but it can also be more balanced. A break with the bliss-ninny hippie views, that not all novel experiences are singing roses or DMT elves, and that focusing just on those provides a lopsided tunnel-vision of Reality, no matter how open-minded you are, even an infinite multitude of observations can be biased if you consistently ignore the bad stuff.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 16, 2010, 08:03:03 pm
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment?

1.  What's intrinsically unhappy about horror?

2.  Happy is an appropriate emotion for some situations involving horror, but not others.

3.  I can have my notions as to the natural order of things changed without achieving enlightenment.

Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on August 16, 2010, 08:06:21 pm
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."

The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.

The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.

I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.


I already replied to this last night, but I've had more time to think about it and feel it should be further expounded upon, to drive the point home.

My cousin came back recently from a semester of school in South Africa, where she worked with various nursing and healthcare programs, including AIDS clinics.

Stories she brought back were things that I had not known about, and which changed my worldview. Some of them caused me to experience a feeling of Horror.

For example, AIDS is so heavily stigmatized among poor South Africans (who live mainly in townships, the ramshackle slums) that women will sometimes refuse to be tested for it. Even though clinics are available and subsidized by the SA government, they're too afraid of social rejection to get tested. This leads to pregnant women giving birth to HIV-positive babies, even though it is medically possible to reduce the chance of transmission to the newborn child to nearly zero.

Another example: we take knowledge about the truth of HIV and AIDS for granted, but over there, there is a persistent urban legend that one can cure oneself of HIV by having sex with a virgin. My cousin told me a story of an adorable little 7-year-old girl she saw in a clinic who was being treated for AIDS because she'd been raped by a man who thought he could cure himself of the disease that way.

The burn wards there are also filled with children: the most cost-effective way for these people to cook their food is with paraffin stoves... which have the unfortunate habit of exploding and spraying burning paraffin all over the kid who's doing the cooking while the parents are out.


Learning these things created a sense of Horror, because it wasn't part of my worldview before. I don't feel particularly "Enlightened" knowing these things.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 10:56:16 pm
Thanks Dok, thanks Cainad for the explanations.
Hm... Dok, are you sure the word Horror is good for this? Based on your definition, it doesn't have to be a negative emotion at all; yet the word Horror has mostly negative connotations and is connected to Loathing and Fear. Based on your definition, is is connected also in the same way to Enlightenment and Love. (The latter two I think is what Triple Zero's theoretical child was feeling in his post, quoted below. Well, maybe not enlightenment, but the child laughs because he/she loves the magic trick.)
Eh. The word just seems misleading, although I guess that's why you posted a definition. I'm sorry.


What happened was this: They showed a person holding a brick. The person let go of the brick. The brick fell upwards.

I suppose this falls somewhere in line with Dok's "roses singing" example. The interesting part of the experiment was of course when they filmed people's reaction to seeing this video:

An adult would frown, trying to understand, not liking that he couldn't. (Then probably concluding it must be some kind of trick)

A child would laugh.

That was it. Show a child something that doesn't fit their current worldview and they will laugh. Say, a magic trick, make something appear or disappear. The child will laugh. The adult will instinctively try to figure it out--unless they are smart and know that in order to fully enjoy the magic show they have to suspend their skepticism for a while and willingly choose to go along for the ride. (as far as my understanding goes it is the latter kind of mental state that mentalists/hypnotists exploit in their subjects)

The obvious hypothesis-explanation is of course that the young child still has to learn a lot about the world. So, encountering something unexpected, something that lies outside of the path of their current world-model, is a positive experience for them (not talking about molesters here, but singing roses), because it provides them with an opportunity to learn.
There is something in adult behaviour that makes this a relatively negative experience for them, it's probably something really obvious, but I can't come up with it right now (anyone?).

I think that last part may be what I was getting at (in a more confused way).

It's a relatively negative experience for adults because adults already have worldviews and already have firm beliefs. They have faith in things now, think that they know a lot about the world already as opposed to a child who starts out with nothing, and thus, when their firm beliefs are challenged, they just feel insecure.

This might have something to do with The Machine - the Machine tells them how society works and is supposed to work, and tells them to get to work. No time for learning more things about the world; this is the world and this is how you fit in the system. Adults get this message, and so their learning ends. So they just want the world to stay how they were told it is (how they think it is) so they can get on with their lives... or something like that. It's like something (from the Illuminatus!, I think) about how people go to college not to actually learn but to get a piece of paper that allows them to qualify for certain jobs. It explains why adults hate the unexpected instead of being delighted by it. Perhaps society is structured to make people feel that way.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on August 17, 2010, 03:21:07 pm
Thanks Dok, thanks Cainad for the explanations.
Hm... Dok, are you sure the word Horror is good for this? Based on your definition, it doesn't have to be a negative emotion at all; yet the word Horror has mostly negative connotations and is connected to Loathing and Fear. Based on your definition, is is connected also in the same way to Enlightenment and Love.

I'm not arguing about this all fucking week in an effort to satisfy a pedant.

NOT THE FUCKING POINT.

That is all.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Lord Cataplanga on August 17, 2010, 04:37:39 pm
What happened was this: They showed a person holding a brick. The person let go of the brick. The brick fell upwards.

I suppose this falls somewhere in line with Dok's "roses singing" example. The interesting part of the experiment was of course when they filmed people's reaction to seeing this video:

An adult would frown, trying to understand, not liking that he couldn't. (Then probably concluding it must be some kind of trick)

A child would laugh.

That was it. Show a child something that doesn't fit their current worldview and they will laugh. Say, a magic trick, make something appear or disappear. The child will laugh. The adult will instinctively try to figure it out--unless they are smart and know that in order to fully enjoy the magic show they have to suspend their skepticism for a while and willingly choose to go along for the ride. (as far as my understanding goes it is the latter kind of mental state that mentalists/hypnotists exploit in their subjects)

The obvious hypothesis-explanation is of course that the young child still has to learn a lot about the world. So, encountering something unexpected, something that lies outside of the path of their current world-model, is a positive experience for them (not talking about molesters here, but singing roses), because it provides them with an opportunity to learn.
There is something in adult behaviour that makes this a relatively negative experience for them, it's probably something really obvious, but I can't come up with it right now (anyone?).

For a child, encountering something unexpected is a chance to learn something new, which is pleasant. To an adult, it means they have to unlearn something old, which is always unpleasant, regardless of Machines and social conditioning.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Cosine 5 on August 19, 2010, 01:05:42 am
Eh, good point. Learning is good, unlearning bad. Makes sense.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Telarus on August 20, 2010, 01:01:39 am
Eh, good point. Learning is good means new reward chemical pathways, unlearning bad means fighting against existing reward chemical pathways. Makes sense.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: The Johnny on August 21, 2010, 02:38:38 am
1.  Fear:  The sensation that something bad in the natural order of things is about to happen to you.  Example:  A dog approaches you, snarling and growling.  Your reaction is fear; something very bad is potentially about to happen.  Your fight or flight reflex kicks in, and you drop down a few neural circuits.  Another example:  You are a soldier on the front line, and someone starts to shoot at you.  This is part of the natural order of things for that environment, and causes fear rather than any other emotion.  How you REACT to fear will vary from person to person and event to event, and isn't really relevant to the definition (at least for our purposes here).

2.  Loathing::  The knowledge and distaste of something undesirable about the natural order of things, but isn't a direct, fear-causing condition (though anxiety is definitely part of it).  Example:  The knowledge that the next door neighbor owns a mean dog that occasionally menaces you, but isn't doing so at the moment...Or the soldier on furlough from the front, who knows that he is due to return to the fighting soon.  Displeasure, hatred, and anxiety are the root emotions, and again, the reaction may vary (see above).

3.  Horror:  The sensation of being confronted with something utterly outside of your perception of the natural order of things.  Example:  Same dog confronts you and starts singing Elton John tunes.  Or the soldier wakes up to find that his entire unit has pulled back in the night, leaving him to die (He has been ingrained with the belief that no man gets left behind).

Its interesting to note that, Jacques Derrida in "The postal card" paraphrases Freud's "Beyond the Pleasure Principle" about the onset of traumatic neurosis which need be distinguished in three forms:

1. Fear: provoked by the prescense of a dangerous, determinate and known object.

2. Angst: provoked by an unknown danger and indeterminate (which prepares the person for danger, but more against traumatism, and is the cause of repression)

3. Fright/Scare: which is a danger that is unknown and indeterminate - which causes traumatism. (From which angst was unable to protect us from.

I found the parallels to be interesting.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Triple Zero on August 23, 2010, 12:33:55 pm
For a child, encountering something unexpected is a chance to learn something new, which is pleasant. To an adult, it means they have to unlearn something old, which is always unpleasant, regardless of Machines and social conditioning.

Why?

Why is it always unpleasant?

Don't get me wrong, I can feel it is unpleasant, I agree it usually is, but why is that?

It's almost so intuitively unpleasant, you look straight past it without realising it doesn't actually make sense, why would adapting, unlearning, changing our world-view automatically be something unpleasant?

Isn't that one of the lessons you can take from Discordia, the neophilic one? New stuff is awesome, smash your reality tunnel, and all that?
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Lord Cataplanga on August 25, 2010, 03:04:57 pm
For a child, encountering something unexpected is a chance to learn something new, which is pleasant. To an adult, it means they have to unlearn something old, which is always unpleasant, regardless of Machines and social conditioning.

Why?

Why is it always unpleasant?

Don't get me wrong, I can feel it is unpleasant, I agree it usually is, but why is that?

It's almost so intuitively unpleasant, you look straight past it without realising it doesn't actually make sense, why would adapting, unlearning, changing our world-view automatically be something unpleasant?

Isn't that one of the lessons you can take from Discordia, the neophilic one? New stuff is awesome, smash your reality tunnel, and all that?

Debugging a program that was working fine just a moment ago is unpleasant, because it's hard work. But it has to be done, and you'll feel better afterwards.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: LuciferX on November 24, 2010, 02:50:34 am
Why?

Why is it always unpleasant?

Don't get me wrong, I can feel it is unpleasant, I agree it usually is, but why is that?

It's almost so intuitively unpleasant, you look straight past it without realising it doesn't actually make sense, why would adapting, unlearning, changing our world-view automatically be something unpleasant?

Isn't that one of the lessons you can take from Discordia, the neophilic one? New stuff is awesome, smash your reality tunnel, and all that?


Debugging a program that was working fine just a moment ago is unpleasant, because it's hard work. But it has to be done, and you'll feel better afterwards.
> But it has to be done, and you'll feel better afterwards.
Some actually enjoy eating bugs.
Bugs can fortify others.
Some lose.
Some win.
Others can fortify bugs.
Some bugs enjoy eating people
Others eat other bugs.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Xieante Antitheus on November 28, 2010, 04:53:27 am
The Buddhist Sutra of Mindfulness speaks about the meditation on the corpse: meditate on the decomposition of the body, how the body bloats and turns violet, how it is eaten by worms until only bits of blood and flesh still cling to the bones, meditate up to the point where only white bones remain, which in turn are slowly worn away and turn into dust...

A fantastic post.
There is a beauty in coming to terms with what most would consider to be the ultimate horror. Beyond any shocking revelation, bending of perception, or catastrophic event that could unfold to put us in such a state. There is something to be said when one of the most horrific of ideas is a simple fact. Death and decomposition over the decades has become so taboo most don't even acknowledge its existence until forced to confront it.

So horror then can be caused by even something well known, not unusual, not strange, nothing new...

Irrational- phobia?

But not regarded as being irrational...

I think I may be typing in circles here, I must apologize for that. However taking into consideration that 100 years really is not an obscene amount of time in the grand scheme of things; and at that point in time a family would clean, dress, and show their own recently deceased family members. It provides an interesting place to start looking at the developments and transitions we as humans go through that alter our perspectives of what is or is not horrifying.

Not 100% on my whole point, thanks for joining in the dysfunction of my mind as it drools on my computer screen...
Just as well I know great ideas can spawn from even the most redundant/silly of thoughts, so have at it.

Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Kansai on December 26, 2010, 11:15:00 pm
Here's two things I don't quite get yet:

1)  Horror relates to something outside of our field of knowledge about the natural world.  Assuming I have interpreted the previous posts correctly, would miracles, then, be included into horror?  Unless one accepts what the universe throws at them, as mentioned from earlier responses, an act of God would in fact shake one's understanding of their environment and thus horror comes into play.  Am I right on this statement?

2)  If fear is the feeling  that something bad is about to happen, then what is courage?  Would courage be simply the "fight" response to any fear-inducing scenario?  If so, then everyone would have fear and that the term "fight your fears" would be questioned.  Now that I think about it, what does it truly mean to use the "fight" response to fear?
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: BadBeast on December 26, 2010, 11:28:55 pm
1) No

2) Sphincter control.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Requia ☣ on December 27, 2010, 12:12:19 am
1)  Horror relates to something outside of our field of knowledge about the natural world.  Assuming I have interpreted the previous posts correctly, would miracles, then, be included into horror?  Unless one accepts what the universe throws at them, as mentioned from earlier responses, an act of God would in fact shake one's understanding of their environment and thus horror comes into play.  Am I right on this statement?

Depends on the person I think.  For people who think miracles happen all the time, no, not horror at all.  For one of the new atheists on the other hand, horror would be pretty expected (but not as much as if the concept of miracles wasn't in our culture).
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Phox on December 27, 2010, 12:17:23 am
Here's two things I don't quite get yet:

1)  Horror relates to something outside of our field of knowledge about the natural world.  Assuming I have interpreted the previous posts correctly, would miracles, then, be included into horror?  Unless one accepts what the universe throws at them, as mentioned from earlier responses, an act of God would in fact shake one's understanding of their environment and thus horror comes into play.  Am I right on this statement?

2)  If fear is the feeling  that something bad is about to happen, then what is courage?  Would courage be simply the "fight" response to any fear-inducing scenario?  If so, then everyone would have fear and that the term "fight your fears" would be questioned.  Now that I think about it, what does it truly mean to use the "fight" response to fear?


Take it from a Doktor, the answers are all there in the OP. Read it again.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Kansai on December 27, 2010, 03:13:12 am
All right, Phox.  I might have missed something in this thread.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2010, 03:13:59 am
All right, Phox.  I might have missed something in this thread.

Um, yeah.  Both of your questions were answered in the OP.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Kansai on December 27, 2010, 03:18:05 am
Oh, duh.  How did I miss that?  Okay, that answers my questions.

Now I'm thinking about horror flics.  I guess from this logic, not all movies in that genre are actually horror.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2010, 03:20:53 am
Oh, duh.  How did I miss that?  Okay, that answers my questions.

Now I'm thinking about horror flics.  I guess from this logic, not all movies in that genre are actually horror.

Wrong kind of "horror".
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Kansai on December 27, 2010, 03:24:07 am
I know that.  I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean.  It's just kind of funny to me.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Fujikoma on December 27, 2010, 01:59:17 pm
So, if it forces me to unlearn something, this means the appropriate response is horror?... Sure, I get a little ticked about the inconvenience, but I've gotten pretty used to it by now... Still, the fear of the unknown does seem to strike some people rather deeply.

Rereading the stuff I've written, or observing my older drawings always gives me this sick feeling, it's something I prefer not to do... I suppose the concept of death is quite unpleasant, but it doesn't scare me as much as the possibility of being maimed for the rest of my life. I suppose that's as close to "horror" as I get these days, except for the occasional spooky phantom (or ghost, or whatever) sighting, or glowing eyes in the dark. Change is the only thing I've found to be a constant in life, and for ghosts, there are cats (who's eyes have odd reflective properties and freak me out a little anyway).

Also, telephone calls to or from relatives almost always result in a deep sense of dread. It's not that I don't like them, I just don't like the things they often want to talk to me about.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2010, 04:11:01 pm
So, if it forces me to unlearn something, this means the appropriate response is horror?... Sure, I get a little ticked about the inconvenience, but I've gotten pretty used to it by now... Still, the fear of the unknown does seem to strike some people rather deeply.

Horror != Fear != Loathing.

Goddammit.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Adios on December 27, 2010, 04:53:04 pm
My shrink told me I was abused as a child!
Horror + Fear + Loathing.


I just found out my shrink lied to get a grant!
Horror + Fear + Loathing.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2010, 05:08:59 pm
!= means "does not equal".

Just saying.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Adios on December 27, 2010, 05:10:45 pm
!= means "does not equal".

Just saying.

Well, fuck.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Epimetheus on December 27, 2010, 09:24:51 pm
I know that.  I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean.  It's just kind of funny to me.

I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.

ETA: Of course, most "horror movies" would more accurately be called "fear movies," by the definitions in the OP.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2010, 09:26:16 pm
I know that.  I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean.  It's just kind of funny to me.

I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.

No, they experience fear.

I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Adios on December 27, 2010, 09:30:59 pm
I know that.  I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean.  It's just kind of funny to me.

I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.

No, they experience fear.

I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.


I must admit I am a B horror movie nut.  :cry:
Pray for me.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 27, 2010, 09:34:31 pm
I know that.  I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean.  It's just kind of funny to me.

I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.

No, they experience fear.

I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.


I must admit I am a B horror movie nut.  :cry:
Pray for me.


Oh dear Gods Charley, you and I hold something in common....

Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Adios on December 27, 2010, 09:35:09 pm
I know that.  I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean.  It's just kind of funny to me.

I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.

No, they experience fear.

I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.


I must admit I am a B horror movie nut.  :cry:
Pray for me.


Oh dear Gods Charley, you and I hold something in common....



Damn. Is it 2012 yet?  :lulz:
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2010, 09:40:48 pm
I know that.  I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean.  It's just kind of funny to me.

I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.

No, they experience fear.

I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.


I must admit I am a B horror movie nut.  :cry:
Pray for me.

Oh, I'm down with "Night of the Lepus" and "Them", but I find the various "Friday the Thirteenth, Part XXXIV" chop flicks to be devoid of any valuable content, Buldada-wise or not.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Adios on December 27, 2010, 09:54:17 pm
I know that.  I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean.  It's just kind of funny to me.

I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.

No, they experience fear.

I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.


I must admit I am a B horror movie nut.  :cry:
Pray for me.


Oh dear Gods Charley, you and I hold something in common....



Bad Sci-fi is also a favorite. Every time I stop on the sy-fy channel Terri moans. For a very short time I thought it was turning her on.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Kansai on December 28, 2010, 08:19:37 pm
I'm not a fan of the more recent horror flics.  It's not because I'm scared of them (I'm scared, regardless).  It's just that there's no structure.  It's just a long quiet pause with some bloody child jumping out of a closet screaming his or her head off.  I mean some movies, like Frailty and Creepshow (creepshow isn't scary, but the concepts in the story is) had something that I would say are, without hesitance to say, scary.  We need better horror movies.

50 suspence scenes != 1 good horror movie.

Kudos, Roger, for speaking my language.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Phox on December 28, 2010, 08:20:45 pm
Roger speaks the universal language of hate.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: LMNO on December 28, 2010, 08:22:44 pm
We need better horror movies.

Wishes, commands, et al...


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419RBC6J4JL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 28, 2010, 08:23:44 pm
Roger speaks the universal language of hate.

In person, I just make these weird guttural noises, and everything around me warps and distorts.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Phox on December 28, 2010, 08:24:13 pm
We need better horror movies.

Wishes, commands, et al...


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419RBC6J4JL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

CANNOT UNSEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 22, 2011, 05:55:01 pm
I've come to a rather unusual place in my internal undoings. Though I must admit its seems quite familiar in a de ja vu/ lucid dream type way but Im awake.

I don't really ever seem to experience fear anymore. I mean I get the natural impulse's not to touch hot shit and apply pressure to the brakes in my car as needed.
But I cannot see myself being afraid of anything.

Ill run down a short list.

FEAR:

Disease------ no cause Ill just die eventually and it won't really be all that bad anyway since it will eventually end.

A world wide corporate fascist state taking over and herding us into death camps etc,etc,etc. Were all familiar with these types of scenarios Im sure".------   Na doesn't bother me, It'd give me a chance to act out on my Mad Max beyond thunder dome fantasies.

Death of family friend or beloved pets------- Na I mean I love them and all but na not afraid just a slightly disappointed acceptance.

Afraid of the fukushima world wide radio active rain,tsunamis,earthquakes,asteroids, hurricanes. Na Im pretty sure I don't mind such things at all The world does need to rinse itself off once in a while.

Dont get me wrong If I see people or animals who are hurt or need help I'll be the first one there.   But I really just can't get riled up about the impermanence of well being. :)
................................................. ...

LOATHING-  I can see in remnants of what I used to have loathsome feelings towards in the past like George Bush,Obama,the drug war or any other war,Basically any machination or representative of the state or religion.
Loathsome of shitty music ,movies,tv shows, etc etc etc. Its all a divine comedy expertly designed and carried out for a pretty spectacularly ironic audience.

I just don't feel loathing for anything anymore. Other than the initial kneejerk dying out of old reaction patterns to such stimuli. I remember that its all 1 infinite presence playing discordian type jokes with perceptions that same 1 infinite presence gave fruit of in the first place.
Like its playing peekaboo with itself and having jab fests with itself in a divine ass puppet show for its own amusement.

.........................................

Horror- As I'm thinking about this right now it stands to reason that If I cannot really muster the imagination to feel fear or loathing at this point what could ever foreseeably ever happen for me to feel genuine horror?

I'm drawing a blank.

On a sidenote I found out that the guys from MST3K have a new project called RiffTrax. Im sure some of you knew this already I just thought I'd throw it out there :)

http://www.rifftrax.com/




Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 23, 2011, 11:51:05 pm

I don't really ever seem to experience fear anymore.

I just don't feel loathing for anything anymore.

Horror- As I'm thinking about this right now it stands to reason that If I cannot really muster the imagination to feel fear or loathing at this point what could ever foreseeably ever happen for me to feel genuine horror?


So, in short, you're a food tube.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 12:45:32 am

I don't really ever seem to experience fear anymore.

I just don't feel loathing for anything anymore.

Horror- As I'm thinking about this right now it stands to reason that If I cannot really muster the imagination to feel fear or loathing at this point what could ever foreseeably ever happen for me to feel genuine horror?


So, in short, you're a food tube.

I suppose someone like you could define it like that and think its funny.

It's had many many names.

None really do it justice.

But I'm Just some dumb hippy that listens to death metal and reads silly new age books that he thinks are ridiculous.

You've had me pegged all along.

Your sharp ;)


Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2011, 12:47:06 am

I don't really ever seem to experience fear anymore.

I just don't feel loathing for anything anymore.

Horror- As I'm thinking about this right now it stands to reason that If I cannot really muster the imagination to feel fear or loathing at this point what could ever foreseeably ever happen for me to feel genuine horror?


So, in short, you're a food tube.

I suppose someone like you could define it like that and think its funny.

It's had many many names.

None really do it justice.

But I'm Just some dumb hippy that listens to death metal and reads silly new age books that he thinks are ridiculous.

You've had me pegged all along.

Your sharp ;)




"You're".

You're welcome.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Freeky on July 24, 2011, 01:29:49 am
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok?  He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 01:46:12 am
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok?  He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!

I was bitter about education my first day of kindergarten.

Alright everyone get in a single file.

Fuck This!

The American education system is a fucking sham.

In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.

I did pretty well.

The stoners who would cut class to come out to the woods and hang out with me and learn about what I was reading would get credits for it.

My principal and guidance counselor thought pretty highly of me.

I aced the state required testing and graduated without ever sitting in a classroom ;)











Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2011, 01:47:47 am

In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.

I did pretty well.


Yes, that Wilhelm Reich Orgone technology has made you the man you are today.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 24, 2011, 01:57:56 am
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok?  He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!

I was bitter about education my first day of kindergarten.

Alright everyone get in a single file.

Fuck This!

The American education system is a fucking sham.

In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.

I did pretty well.

The stoners who would cut class to come out to the woods and hang out with me and learn about what I was reading would get credits for it.

My principal and guidance counselor thought pretty highly of me.

I aced the state required testing and graduated without ever sitting in a classroom ;)


I dropped out of third grade and  taught myself under conditions of poverty, deprivation, abuse, and neglect. I had a bicycle and a library card... the library was five miles away.

Yet, miraculously, I STILL learned critical thinking.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Cain on July 24, 2011, 02:00:27 am
Lol.

For a guy who doesn't care what anyone here thinks of him, he seems mighty desperate to impress, what with his tales about his big-breasted Norwegian girlfriend and his autodidactic prowess.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2011, 02:01:18 am
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok?  He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!

I was bitter about education my first day of kindergarten.

Alright everyone get in a single file.

Fuck This!

The American education system is a fucking sham.

In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.

I did pretty well.

The stoners who would cut class to come out to the woods and hang out with me and learn about what I was reading would get credits for it.

My principal and guidance counselor thought pretty highly of me.

I aced the state required testing and graduated without ever sitting in a classroom ;)


I dropped out of third grade and  taught myself under conditions of poverty, deprivation, abuse, and neglect. I had a bicycle and a library card... the library was five miles away.

Yet, miraculously, I STILL learned critical thinking.

But you know NOTHING of monopole magnets and perpetual motion!  NOTHING!
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2011, 02:03:03 am
Lol.

For a guy who doesn't care what anyone here thinks of him, he seems mighty desperate to impress, what with his tales about his big-breasted Norwegian girlfriend and his autodidactic prowess.

Important note:  She cooks for him.  Don't forget that.
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 02:11:52 am
Lol.

For a guy who doesn't care what anyone here thinks of him, he seems mighty desperate to impress, what with his tales about his big-breasted Norwegian girlfriend and his autodidactic prowess.

They really are very nice titties. She's a pretty good cook too.

Did I ever tell you about the time I proved Einstein's theory of relativity wrong?  Funny story.

;)


 
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Pæs on July 24, 2011, 02:19:10 am
 :troll:
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 02:20:02 am

In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.

I did pretty well.


Yes, that Wilhelm Reich Orgone technology has made you the man you are today.

His body of work it quite a bit larger than the topic of orgone energy. I would have assumed such a scholarly lad such as yourself would have known that.

Here is one of my favorites from his catalog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mass_Psychology_of_Fascism

Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2011, 02:22:18 am

Did I ever tell you about the time I proved Einstein's theory of relativity wrong?  Funny story.


Jesus Christ.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 02:30:54 am

Did I ever tell you about the time I proved Einstein's theory of relativity wrong?  Funny story.


Jesus Christ.   :lulz:

;)
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 24, 2011, 06:10:54 pm
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok?  He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!

I was bitter about education my first day of kindergarten.

Alright everyone get in a single file.

Fuck This!

The American education system is a fucking sham.

In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.

I did pretty well.

The stoners who would cut class to come out to the woods and hang out with me and learn about what I was reading would get credits for it.

My principal and guidance counselor thought pretty highly of me.

I aced the state required testing and graduated without ever sitting in a classroom ;)


I dropped out of third grade and  taught myself under conditions of poverty, deprivation, abuse, and neglect. I had a bicycle and a library card... the library was five miles away.

Yet, miraculously, I STILL learned critical thinking.

But you know NOTHING of monopole magnets and perpetual motion!  NOTHING!

 :lulz:
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: LuciferX on October 03, 2011, 10:33:01 pm
Ehhm, I remember this album by one of those hipety-hopety djs that equated the horror with the passage of time.
It was terrifically funny. :x

Then I was like, what about the confirmation bias?  If having to integrate horror is difficult on a neuro-chemical level, because of having to work against dominant feed-back loops, is this not the same as explaining things from the perceptual level?

Dopamine feeds that seeking behavior that rewards recognition over loss.
The confirmation bias supports recognizing things that already conform to a worldview over whatever horrible truth that may threaten it.

Recognition is the monster...
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: axod on October 04, 2011, 08:47:09 am
Recognition is the monster...
Sounds fucking fine but this cognitive shrink I like to sodomize reminds me a little of the Semmelweis reflex.  Really, you should look her up. 
 :pwned:
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Epimetheus on November 15, 2012, 04:09:37 am
I put a piece of cantaloupe

Underneath the microscope.

I saw a million strange things sleepin’,

I saw a zillion weird things creepin’,

I saw some green things twist and bend–

I won’t eat cantaloupe again.



-Shel Silverstein
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Fujikoma on April 03, 2019, 08:01:28 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GyVx28R9-s
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Doktor Howl on April 03, 2019, 10:01:16 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GyVx28R9-s

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?  :crankey:
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: nullified on April 03, 2019, 10:08:17 pm
Here Dok, for the removal of the rancid flavor

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_tLNXSuF9kg

Also I just think you’d like this but haven’t yet found a good place to drop it anywhere, it’s been weeks, I’m just leaving it here
Title: Re: Fear, Loathing, and Horror.
Post by: Fujikoma on April 03, 2019, 10:10:47 pm
LMFAO, I don't know why I linked that.