In describing the coming present weird times, and the study of horror that defines the Doktor's role in life, I think we have to nail down some terminology. I'd like to propose the following definitions:
1. Fear: The sensation that something bad in the natural order of things is about to happen to you. Example: A dog approaches you, snarling and growling. Your reaction is fear; something very bad is potentially about to happen. Your fight or flight reflex kicks in, and you drop down a few neural circuits. Another example: You are a soldier on the front line, and someone starts to shoot at you. This is part of the natural order of things for that environment, and causes fear rather than any other emotion. How you REACT to fear will vary from person to person and event to event, and isn't really relevant to the definition (at least for our purposes here).
2. Loathing:: The knowledge and distaste of something undesirable about the natural order of things, but isn't a direct, fear-causing condition (though anxiety is definitely part of it). Example: The knowledge that the next door neighbor owns a mean dog that occasionally menaces you, but isn't doing so at the moment...Or the soldier on furlough from the front, who knows that he is due to return to the fighting soon. Displeasure, hatred, and anxiety are the root emotions, and again, the reaction may vary (see above).
3. Horror: The sensation of being confronted with something utterly outside of your perception of the natural order of things. Example: Same dog confronts you and starts singing Elton John tunes. Or the soldier wakes up to find that his entire unit has pulled back in the night, leaving him to die (He has been ingrained with the belief that no man gets left behind).
Consider: An infant is only afraid of two things...Loud noises and heights. He hasn't yet had enough experience with the world to view anything else as a scary part of the natural order. As adults, we know that there are demented people who like to molest and/or harm infants...This is a disgusting thing, but part of the natural order of how the world works, so we loathe it. A child has no idea of this, and when the concept is introduced as part of the natural order of things, the child feels horror. Once the child becomes accustomed to this new view, loathing kicks in...And a parent who loses track of her child at a crowded department store knows the natural order of things, and is directly confronted with the potential that someone has done something with her child, and you're back to fear.
So as we study the present century, and the events that lead up to it, we can distinguish between direct threats, bad things we know for certain will occur, and new things that increase our knowledge of the natural order of the world in ways that will be undesirable. The first two have been studied (and if we worry about them, then we'll never get anything done), the third is our purview: The Weird.
It's a weird century, and we Doktors are Strangehunters. Don't tell me about war, I know about war. Tell me the new or at least previously unknown stuff. We can predict those things based on fear and loathing, what we need to research is the horror.
Okay for now,
Dok
So, how do we research this unknown horror?
Quote from: Charley Brown on August 13, 2010, 06:51:34 PM
So, how do we research this unknown horror?
That will be covered in the next few bits. I wanted to nail the terminology down first.
I plan to do an obscene amount of work on this for the next 2 weeks, then get offended by something and fuck off on a tantrum for a while, only to return to it a week or so later.
Dok,
Is learning to plan around his ideosyncracies.
What do we call it when we are repulsed by a part of someone else's perception of the natural order? Like, say, racism? Would this fall under Horror? Or does Horror exclusively refer to that which has not been encountered before?
Quote from: Doktor Plague on August 13, 2010, 07:03:31 PM
What do we call it when we are repulsed by a part of someone else's perception of the natural order? Like, say, racism? Would this fall under Horror? Or does Horror exclusively refer to that which has not been encountered before?
Horror consists of new, undesirable additions to your perception of the natural order. Racism is a loathing thing, except for the odd hippy who thinks it's dead and gone, and then witnesses a teabagger rally.
:mittens:
I love it - HORROR: reaction to the unknown unknown, the thing which comes from outside your mental model of the world, thereby shattering it
EGADS! IT'S ALIVE!!
Quote from: Cramulus on August 13, 2010, 07:07:26 PM
:mittens:
I love it - HORROR: reaction to the unknown unknown, the thing which comes from outside your mental model of the world, thereby shattering it
EGADS! IT'S ALIVE!!
Yep. That can be good or bad, depending on both what that change in perception is, and how you yourself react to change. Some people have a positive reaction to ALL change (which is kinda sick), some people have a positive reaction to some change, and a bad reaction to others, and some people have a bad reaction to ALL change (most of humanity).
Horror doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. HP Lovecraft said that the essence of horror was walking into your garden and finding that your roses are singing. I'd kind of dig that, even though it would definitely make my hair stand on end.
On the other hand, I've had experience with homocides, and they're frequently far worse than what you hear on TV. Finding out that some people like to rub one out in their victim's wound(s), or even give the wound a little lovin' (I wish I was joking about this) alters your perception of reality in a way that is DEFINITELY NOT enjoyable, and in fact leaves scars in your mind.
Both are horror. Obviously, the former is preferable to the latter.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 07:05:25 PM
Quote from: Doktor Plague on August 13, 2010, 07:03:31 PM
What do we call it when we are repulsed by a part of someone else's perception of the natural order? Like, say, racism? Would this fall under Horror? Or does Horror exclusively refer to that which has not been encountered before?
Horror consists of new, undesirable additions to your perception of the natural order. Racism is a loathing thing, except for the odd hippy who thinks it's dead and gone, and then witnesses a teabagger rally.
Yeah, that occurred to me as I was typing the post but I wasn't sure how to put it in so I left it out.
Anyway, I'm liking the new terminology.
Horror: NAMBLA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association) for many people. I'd say a major sign of horror is that your initial reaction, upon hearing of it, is "that can't be true." Right?
Thanks, BB. I'll split that out later (in it's entirety), when I get this ball rolling this weekend.
I like this--gels nicely with what I've experienced and observed. I look forward to your reports on your experiments, Herr Doktor.
Quote from: Jenne on August 13, 2010, 07:37:38 PM
I like this--gels nicely with what I've experienced and observed. I look forward to your reports on your experiments, Herr Doktor.
I'm going to begin with some methodology first, then begin some "field work", alongside some observations garnered from the news, etc.
I'm really looking forward to this.
This is genius.
Good stuff.
Testing out the terminology: Lovecraft wrote athiest Horror stories, because the existing theological-based 'horror-stories' stopped inspiring Horror, just dredging up existing Fears.
Quote from: Telarus on August 13, 2010, 08:07:21 PM
Good stuff.
Testing out the terminology: Lovecraft wrote athiest Horror stories, because the existing theological-based 'horror-stories' stopped inspiring Horror, just dredging up existing Fears.
Correct. That's also why he tried to convey "the unknowable" (badly), and made use of devices like "alien geometry". He was trying to convey horror as strangeness, not just tentacles and gills.
Nice! looking forward to your studies, Dok!
When you said 'horror doesn't have to be a bad thing', is it still understood that there is inherent discomfort in it? e.g. the singing roses.... they certainly aren't dangerous (until they find out that you're a common mobile vulgaris) but it does mean a turbulent rearrangement of your view on things is in order...
Although i enjoyed HPL, i always was amused by his descriptions starting out with the words 'utterly indescribable in human language' and then proceeding to use about 3/4 of said language to nail the subject down to a T.
(also I'll do my damnedest to give someone else a shot at saying the wrong thing, this time. :wink:)
Quote from: Iptuous on August 13, 2010, 08:27:05 PM
When you said 'horror doesn't have to be a bad thing', is it still understood that there is inherent discomfort in it? e.g. the singing roses.... they certainly aren't dangerous (until they find out that you're a common mobile vulgaris) but it does mean a turbulent rearrangement of your view on things is in order...
Absolutely. And that's where the emotion "horror" comes in. It's the feeling of having your worldview broken, for good or for ill. Mostly for ill.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 08:32:08 PM
Quote from: Iptuous on August 13, 2010, 08:27:05 PM
When you said 'horror doesn't have to be a bad thing', is it still understood that there is inherent discomfort in it? e.g. the singing roses.... they certainly aren't dangerous (until they find out that you're a common mobile vulgaris) but it does mean a turbulent rearrangement of your view on things is in order...
Absolutely. And that's where the emotion "horror" comes in. It's the feeling of having your worldview broken, for good or for ill. Mostly for ill.
Horror: the feeling of having your worldview broken, usually for ill.
What I like about these terms is that they match up to my own experiences so cleanly. I can easily recall moments of horror and fear and loathing as distinct emotional states that are rarely ambiguous.
Introduce us to hell, Dok. I am ready for it.
Quote from: Sigmatic on August 14, 2010, 03:06:06 AM
What I like about these terms is that they match up to my own experiences so cleanly. I can easily recall moments of horror and fear and loathing as distinct emotional states that are rarely ambiguous.
^This right here^
Great idea, Dok.
:mittens:
:mittens: for the OP. These are really good definitions, IMO, and will probably influence the way I use these terms in the future.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 08:09:13 PM
Quote from: Telarus on August 13, 2010, 08:07:21 PM
Good stuff.
Testing out the terminology: Lovecraft wrote athiest Horror stories, because the existing theological-based 'horror-stories' stopped inspiring Horror, just dredging up existing Fears.
Correct. That's also why he tried to convey "the unknowable" (badly), and made use of devices like "alien geometry". He was trying to convey horror as strangeness, not just tentacles and gills.
I think this sums up pretty damned well why so many modern mythos fics suck. We all know Cthulu by now, there's no Horror anymore.
Posting to stay posted
Edit: Is it possible to be in a state where horror is not possible anymore, and everything goes under fear and loathing? I guess what I'm saying is that I haven't really experienced horror to my recollection, anytime in the past couple of years at least, and I'm wondering if this would hamper any attempts to study horrorology, or if there's just a lot I haven't encountered yet...
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on August 16, 2010, 01:45:11 AM
Posting to stay posted
Edit: Is it possible to be in a state where horror is not possible anymore, and everything goes under fear and loathing? I guess what I'm saying is that I haven't really experienced horror to my recollection, anytime in the past couple of years at least, and I'm wondering if this would hamper any attempts to study horrorology, or if there's just a lot I haven't encountered yet...
I feel kind of similarly, and the bolded portion is my take on it. I think what happens is that, early on in one's study of horrorology, one learns to accept that Horror is going to happen to you, that Horror is a part of life.
But when it stares you right in the face, you still feel it strong as ever... I found that out a little over a week ago, when I was threatened with death from some random stranger in a car while I was walking home at night in what I always (and by "always" I mean since like toddlerhood) thought of as a very safe and quiet residential neighborhood. The idea that someone might actually seek to do me harm without provocation on my part was as Horrifying as it was Fear-inducing, since my previous worldview told me that that sort of thing doesn't happen around here. Indeed, I'd never been threatened like that before, anywhere.
P.S. For those curious, I escaped unharmed by judicious application of my Wimp-Fu skillz: I hid in someone's bushes until the person threatening me lost interest and left.
From what I understand, Discordians have rather flexible worldviews. "It is my firm belief that it is a mistake to hold firm beliefs." Thus, by getting rid of all firm beliefs, would one not be able to rid oneself of the ability to experience horror? I'm talking about cultivating an ultimate acceptance of whatever the universe throws at you, so that nothing is unexpected simply because nothing is expected. If that makes sense. :|
Also, I'm going to infer from the above that the younger one is, the more often one will experience horror, as the young have narrow worldviews and thus can't quite avoid making generalizations about everything else that will often be toppled with horror. Thus, can horror be said to be a necessary part of building worldviews?
Well, not a necessary part but it is a response, and a natural one, so shouldn't it serve some purpose other than paralyzing us and making people stress out?
I think nothing less than Rapid onset Cataleptic Disassociation, or Retro-Cognitive Asphasia would be sufficient to cause an actual immunity to Horror. However the level of awareness the subject is experiencing, must be carefully mapped by MRS+CAT Brainscans, before, and during any exposure to Horror.
Horror perception is usually localised, within the Medulla Oblongata. However, in 97% of test cases, when the Medulla region has been surgically removed, increased Alpha activity in the Pineal gland has been observed. Whether this activity has any cognitive resonance in the frontal, or even pre-frontal lobe area is open to speculation.
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 02:33:07 AM
From what I understand, Discordians have rather flexible worldviews. "It is my firm belief that it is a mistake to hold firm beliefs." Thus, by getting rid of all firm beliefs, would one not be able to rid oneself of the ability to experience horror? I'm talking about cultivating an ultimate acceptance of whatever the universe throws at you, so that nothing is unexpected simply because nothing is expected. If that makes sense. :|
Yeah, but good luck trying not to have expectations. As long as one has a worldview, one will have expectations. The best one can do, IMO, is learn to cope with these expectations being shattered.
You're not wrong, per se, it's just an implausible scenario.
Quote
Also, I'm going to infer from the above that the younger one is, the more often one will experience horror, as the young have narrow worldviews and thus can't quite avoid making generalizations about everything else that will often be toppled with horror. Thus, can horror be said to be a necessary part of building worldviews?
Well, not a necessary part but it is a response, and a natural one, so shouldn't it serve some purpose other than paralyzing us and making people stress out?
Being young myself, I may not be in a position of authority, but I'm gonna say yes to this. Once you experience Horror (that is, if you don't try to blot it out of your mind because it's too Horrible), it changes your worldview. It's all part of learning and living, Horrifying though it may be.
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.
The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.
I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 03:23:39 AM
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.
The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.
I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.
That, I believe, is what makes one a Doktor of Horror.
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 03:23:39 AM
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.
The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.
I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.
Laughter
is the primate response to Horror. The mind only draws the distinction between the highest levels of Horror and Samadhi/Illumination after the fact (after the chemicals have already hit your system and as they're burning off), in an attempt to integrate the experience into the personal narrative. You seem to have an emotional bias towards the word, and may be using it in a different context from the one Dok Howl intended (which to me doesn't draw those distinctions because he's defining scientific variables and part of the definition includes: Fear =/= Horror, but they can be found together.)
Quote from: Telarus on August 16, 2010, 03:46:50 AM
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 03:23:39 AM
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.
The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.
I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.
Laughter is the primate response to Horror. The mind only draws the distinction between the highest levels of Horror and Samadhi/Illumination after the fact (after the chemicals have already hit your system and as they're burning off), in an attempt to integrate the experience into the personal narrative. You seem to have an emotional bias towards the word, and may be using it in a different context from the one Dok Howl intended (which to me doesn't draw those distinctions because he's defining scientific variables and part of the definition includes: Fear =/= Horror, but they can be found together.)
Horror is a form of aversion, that may bring on horrormirth, or may overlap with Fear, or both, yes?
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 03:23:39 AM
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
Telarus and Twiddleton did a better job of replying to this, but allow me to be blunt:
Because some stuff is pretty awful, and knowing it leaves a bad taste in your brain no matter how hard you try to appreciate the learning experience. Think of Horror (capital "H", to denote Doktor Howl's specific use of the word) as the 'darker side' of Enlightenment...
...and then realize that that's a false dichotomy yadda yadda blah blah.
I am tired and should not be trying to discuss these things right now.
Quote from: Cainad on August 16, 2010, 04:22:01 AM
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 03:23:39 AM
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
Telarus and Twiddleton did a better job of replying to this, but allow me to be blunt:
Because some stuff is pretty awful, and knowing it leaves a bad taste in your brain no matter how hard you try to appreciate the learning experience. Think of Horror (capital "H", to denote Doktor Howl's specific use of the word) as the 'darker side' of Enlightenment...
...and then realize that that's a false dichotomy yadda yadda blah blah.
I am tired and should not be trying to discuss these things right now.
Ah, Endarkenment. I've had Endarkenment. If my interpretation here is correct, I am ready to become a Doktor.
As a bit of fleshing that thought out, something happened, it was unexpected, and it led to Rage, pure Rage, and I realized I could not possibly act on it with out consequences. Then I got this cold feeling, realizing that this person would someday be shit in a hole, just as I would, and it didn't matter, and it caused me to laugh, just thinking that. That what this person did to enrage me, just didn't fucking matter.
I called it Endarkenment at the time.
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on August 16, 2010, 04:29:06 AM
As a bit of fleshing that thought out, something happened, it was unexpected, and it led to Rage, pure Rage, and I realized I could not possibly act on it with out consequences. Then I got this cold feeling, realizing that this person would someday be shit in a hole, just as I would, and it didn't matter, and it caused me to laugh, just thinking that. That what this person did to enrage me, just didn't fucking matter.
I called it Endarkenment at the time.
The Buddhist Sutra of Mindfulness speaks about the meditation on the corpse: meditate on the decomposition of the body, how the body bloats and turns violet, how it is eaten by worms until only bits of blood and flesh still cling to the bones, meditate up to the point where only white bones remain, which in turn are slowly worn away and turn into dust. Meditate like that, knowing that your own body will undergo the same process. Meditate on the corpse until you are calm and at peace, until your mind and heart are light and tranquil and a smile appears on your face. Thus, by overcoming revulsion and fear, life will be seen as infinitely precious, every second of it worth living. --Thich Nhat Hanh, on the 10 Mediations on the Asubas (Foul Objects)
The 10 Asubas are:
1. Uddhumataka: a rotten, bloated corpse, its body all swollen and its features distended out of shape.
2. Vinilaka: a livid corpse, with patchy discoloration -- greenish, reddish, yellowish -- from the decomposition of the blood.
3. Vipubbaka: a festering corpse, oozing lymph and pus from its various orifices.
4. Vichiddaka: a corpse falling apart, the pieces scattered about, radiating their stench.
5. Vikkhayittaka: a corpse that various animals, such as dogs, are gnawing, or that vultures are picking at, or that crows are fighting over, pulling it apart in different directions.
6. Vikkhittaka: corpses scattered about, i.e., unclaimed bodies that have been thrown together in a pile -- face up, face down, old bones and new scattered all over the place.
7. Hatavikkhittaka: the corpse of a person violently murdered, slashed and stabbed with various weapons, covered with wounds -- short, long, shallow, deep -- some parts hacked so that they're almost detached.
8. Lohitaka: a corpse covered with blood, like the hands of a butcher, all red and raw-smelling.
9. Puluvaka: a corpse infested with worms: long worms, short worms, black, green, and yellow worms, squeezed into the ears, eyes, and mouth; squirming and squiggling about, filling the various parts of the body like a net full of fish that has fallen open.
10. Atthika: a skeleton, some of the joints already separated, others not yet, the bones -- whitish, yellowish, discolored -- scattered near and far all over the place.
But is this relevant to Horror?
ie, was my Endarkenment a recognition of Horror?
These definitions are awesome, Dok. I look forward to reading more. :D
Dok, I'm echoing the praise earlier in this thread, very intriguing!
There's one bit that kept nagging at me while reading the thread though, until I realized what was about it, Telarus touched upon it for a little bit already:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 06:44:54 PMConsider: An infant is only afraid of two things...Loud noises and heights. He hasn't yet had enough experience with the world to view anything else as a scary part of the natural order. As adults, we know that there are demented people who like to molest and/or harm infants...This is a disgusting thing, but part of the natural order of how the world works, so we loathe it. A child has no idea of this, and when the concept is introduced as part of the natural order of things, the child feels horror.
See, I don't remember this. Maybe because when my parents told me about such people I just categorized them with the Wicked Witch and the Big Bad Wolf from the fairytales. But that's not exactly it ...
Then I remembered part of a documentary I saw more than a decade ago. This was before the time of CGI and other video trickery. Well, there was video trickery of course, but people didn't automatically instantly suspect it, like today's hordes of YouTube commenters calling everything "FAKE!!!".
What happened was this: They showed a person holding a brick. The person let go of the brick. The brick fell
upwards.
I suppose this falls somewhere in line with Dok's "roses singing" example. The interesting part of the experiment was of course when they filmed people's reaction to seeing this video:
An adult would frown, trying to understand, not liking that he couldn't. (Then probably concluding it must be some kind of trick)
A child would laugh.
That was it. Show a child something that doesn't fit their current worldview and they will laugh. Say, a magic trick, make something appear or disappear. The child will laugh. The adult will instinctively try to figure it out--unless they are smart and know that in order to fully enjoy the magic show they have to suspend their skepticism for a while and willingly choose to go along for the ride. (as far as my understanding goes it is the latter kind of mental state that mentalists/hypnotists exploit in their subjects)
The obvious hypothesis-explanation is of course that the young child still has to learn a lot about the world. So, encountering something unexpected, something that lies outside of the path of their current world-model, is a
positive experience for them (not talking about molesters here, but singing roses), because it provides them with an
opportunity to learn.
There is something in adult behaviour that makes this a relatively negative experience for them, it's probably something really obvious, but I can't come up with it right now (anyone?).
Something about Discordians is the desire to preserve this child-like laughter and joy at the unknown. RAW called it neophilia.
Then there is Horrormirth. As Dok said in his 4th post ITT (reply to Cram), it can be a perverted joy in anything that is new and terrible (and if you're addicted to the new, you can find a lot of it in the terrible), but it can also be more balanced. A break with the bliss-ninny hippie views, that not all novel experiences are singing roses or DMT elves, and that focusing just on those provides a lopsided tunnel-vision of Reality, no matter how open-minded you are, even an infinite multitude of observations can be biased if you consistently ignore the bad stuff.
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 03:23:39 AM
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment?
1. What's intrinsically unhappy about horror?
2. Happy is an appropriate emotion for some situations involving horror, but not others.
3. I can have my notions as to the natural order of things changed without achieving enlightenment.
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 03:23:39 AM
Yes, but why Horror as opposed to a happier feeling, such as, er, Enlightenment? This is how I look at it: horror is not the cause of a changed worldview but a reaction to it. 1) something unexpected happens, thus challenging your worldview. 2) Your reaction is a feeling of horror.
Yet it seems like for #2, it's usually horror (which is unpleasant to experience) as opposed to a feeling of "I'm glad I am aware of that now."
The obvious answer to that is that people have some inherent desire for beliefs that they can trust, convictions, faiths... and so quite naturally they are devastated when these beliefs fall away. It's like shaking the foundations of a building. And this is because people always embrace belief at first; belief is instinctive and distrust is inherited.
The obvious answer does not satisfy me because I don't want it to be that way, even if it is that way. It comes down to this: we don't always see things right the first time, and even if we do, the world changes. And what makes humans different from other animals is that we don't always adapt. For animals, adaptation comes first. For us, it's conviction. Horror is natural for us and normal for us and an overreaction to the reality of things. So we were wrong. No big deal.
I think I digressed a bit, but what I was trying to say is that horror doesn't help us build our worldviews; instead, it makes it a more painful experience and it makes people paranoid or blind. It wraps the search for Truth in barbed wire. It doesn't help us embrace reality. I much prefer the Discordian way of doing it: 1) something changes your worldview. 2) you tilt your head, understand, and laugh.
I already replied to this last night, but I've had more time to think about it and feel it should be further expounded upon, to drive the point home.
My cousin came back recently from a semester of school in South Africa, where she worked with various nursing and healthcare programs, including AIDS clinics.
Stories she brought back were things that I had not known about, and which changed my worldview. Some of them caused me to experience a feeling of Horror.
For example, AIDS is so heavily stigmatized among poor South Africans (who live mainly in townships, the ramshackle slums) that women will sometimes refuse to be tested for it. Even though clinics are available and subsidized by the SA government, they're too afraid of social rejection to get tested. This leads to pregnant women giving birth to HIV-positive babies, even though it is medically possible to reduce the chance of transmission to the newborn child to nearly zero.
Another example: we take knowledge about the truth of HIV and AIDS for granted, but over there, there is a persistent urban legend that one can cure oneself of HIV by having sex with a virgin. My cousin told me a story of an adorable little 7-year-old girl she saw in a clinic who was being treated for AIDS because she'd been raped by a man who thought he could cure himself of the disease that way.
The burn wards there are also filled with children: the most cost-effective way for these people to cook their food is with paraffin stoves... which have the unfortunate habit of exploding and spraying burning paraffin all over the kid who's doing the cooking while the parents are out.
Learning these things created a sense of Horror, because it wasn't part of my worldview before. I don't feel particularly "Enlightened" knowing these things.
Thanks Dok, thanks Cainad for the explanations.
Hm... Dok, are you sure the word Horror is good for this? Based on your definition, it doesn't have to be a negative emotion at all; yet the word Horror has mostly negative connotations and is connected to Loathing and Fear. Based on your definition, is is connected also in the same way to Enlightenment and Love. (The latter two I think is what Triple Zero's theoretical child was feeling in his post, quoted below. Well, maybe not enlightenment, but the child laughs because he/she loves the magic trick.)
Eh. The word just seems misleading, although I guess that's why you posted a definition. I'm sorry.
Quote from: Triple Zero on August 16, 2010, 07:31:00 AM
What happened was this: They showed a person holding a brick. The person let go of the brick. The brick fell upwards.
I suppose this falls somewhere in line with Dok's "roses singing" example. The interesting part of the experiment was of course when they filmed people's reaction to seeing this video:
An adult would frown, trying to understand, not liking that he couldn't. (Then probably concluding it must be some kind of trick)
A child would laugh.
That was it. Show a child something that doesn't fit their current worldview and they will laugh. Say, a magic trick, make something appear or disappear. The child will laugh. The adult will instinctively try to figure it out--unless they are smart and know that in order to fully enjoy the magic show they have to suspend their skepticism for a while and willingly choose to go along for the ride. (as far as my understanding goes it is the latter kind of mental state that mentalists/hypnotists exploit in their subjects)
The obvious hypothesis-explanation is of course that the young child still has to learn a lot about the world. So, encountering something unexpected, something that lies outside of the path of their current world-model, is a positive experience for them (not talking about molesters here, but singing roses), because it provides them with an opportunity to learn.
There is something in adult behaviour that makes this a relatively negative experience for them, it's probably something really obvious, but I can't come up with it right now (anyone?).
I think that last part may be what I was getting at (in a more confused way).
It's a relatively negative experience for adults because adults already have worldviews and already have firm beliefs. They have faith in things now, think that they know a lot about the world already as opposed to a child who starts out with nothing, and thus, when their firm beliefs are challenged, they just feel insecure.
This might have something to do with The Machine - the Machine tells them how society works and is supposed to work, and tells them to get to work. No time for learning more things about the world; this is the world and this is how you fit in the system. Adults get this message, and so their learning ends. So they just want the world to stay how they were told it is (how they think it is) so they can get on with their lives... or something like that. It's like something (from the Illuminatus!, I think) about how people go to college not to actually learn but to get a piece of paper that allows them to qualify for certain jobs. It explains why adults hate the unexpected instead of being delighted by it. Perhaps society is structured to make people feel that way.
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 10:56:16 PM
Thanks Dok, thanks Cainad for the explanations.
Hm... Dok, are you sure the word Horror is good for this? Based on your definition, it doesn't have to be a negative emotion at all; yet the word Horror has mostly negative connotations and is connected to Loathing and Fear. Based on your definition, is is connected also in the same way to Enlightenment and Love.
I'm not arguing about this all fucking week in an effort to satisfy a pedant.
NOT THE FUCKING POINT.
That is all.
Quote from: Triple Zero on August 16, 2010, 07:31:00 AM
What happened was this: They showed a person holding a brick. The person let go of the brick. The brick fell upwards.
I suppose this falls somewhere in line with Dok's "roses singing" example. The interesting part of the experiment was of course when they filmed people's reaction to seeing this video:
An adult would frown, trying to understand, not liking that he couldn't. (Then probably concluding it must be some kind of trick)
A child would laugh.
That was it. Show a child something that doesn't fit their current worldview and they will laugh. Say, a magic trick, make something appear or disappear. The child will laugh. The adult will instinctively try to figure it out--unless they are smart and know that in order to fully enjoy the magic show they have to suspend their skepticism for a while and willingly choose to go along for the ride. (as far as my understanding goes it is the latter kind of mental state that mentalists/hypnotists exploit in their subjects)
The obvious hypothesis-explanation is of course that the young child still has to learn a lot about the world. So, encountering something unexpected, something that lies outside of the path of their current world-model, is a positive experience for them (not talking about molesters here, but singing roses), because it provides them with an opportunity to learn.
There is something in adult behaviour that makes this a relatively negative experience for them, it's probably something really obvious, but I can't come up with it right now (anyone?).
For a child, encountering something unexpected is a chance to learn something new, which is pleasant. To an adult, it means they have to
unlearn something old, which is always unpleasant, regardless of Machines and social conditioning.
Eh, good point. Learning is good, unlearning bad. Makes sense.
Quote from: Cosine 5 on August 19, 2010, 01:05:42 AM
Eh, good point. Learning is good means new reward chemical pathways, unlearning bad means fighting against existing reward chemical pathways. Makes sense.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 13, 2010, 06:44:54 PM
1. Fear: The sensation that something bad in the natural order of things is about to happen to you. Example: A dog approaches you, snarling and growling. Your reaction is fear; something very bad is potentially about to happen. Your fight or flight reflex kicks in, and you drop down a few neural circuits. Another example: You are a soldier on the front line, and someone starts to shoot at you. This is part of the natural order of things for that environment, and causes fear rather than any other emotion. How you REACT to fear will vary from person to person and event to event, and isn't really relevant to the definition (at least for our purposes here).
2. Loathing:: The knowledge and distaste of something undesirable about the natural order of things, but isn't a direct, fear-causing condition (though anxiety is definitely part of it). Example: The knowledge that the next door neighbor owns a mean dog that occasionally menaces you, but isn't doing so at the moment...Or the soldier on furlough from the front, who knows that he is due to return to the fighting soon. Displeasure, hatred, and anxiety are the root emotions, and again, the reaction may vary (see above).
3. Horror: The sensation of being confronted with something utterly outside of your perception of the natural order of things. Example: Same dog confronts you and starts singing Elton John tunes. Or the soldier wakes up to find that his entire unit has pulled back in the night, leaving him to die (He has been ingrained with the belief that no man gets left behind).
Its interesting to note that, Jacques Derrida in "The postal card" paraphrases Freud's "Beyond the Pleasure Principle" about the onset of traumatic neurosis which need be distinguished in three forms:
1. Fear: provoked by the prescense of a dangerous, determinate and known object.
2. Angst: provoked by an unknown danger and indeterminate (which prepares the person for danger, but more against traumatism, and is the cause of repression)
3. Fright/Scare: which is a danger that is unknown and indeterminate - which causes traumatism. (From which angst was unable to protect us from.
I found the parallels to be interesting.
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on August 17, 2010, 04:37:39 PM
For a child, encountering something unexpected is a chance to learn something new, which is pleasant. To an adult, it means they have to unlearn something old, which is always unpleasant, regardless of Machines and social conditioning.
Why?
Why is it always unpleasant?
Don't get me wrong, I can
feel it is unpleasant, I agree it usually is, but why is that?
It's almost so intuitively unpleasant, you look straight past it without realising it doesn't actually make sense, why would adapting, unlearning, changing our world-view automatically be something unpleasant?
Isn't that one of the lessons you can take from Discordia, the neophilic one? New stuff is awesome, smash your reality tunnel, and all that?
Quote from: Triple Zero on August 23, 2010, 12:33:55 PM
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on August 17, 2010, 04:37:39 PM
For a child, encountering something unexpected is a chance to learn something new, which is pleasant. To an adult, it means they have to unlearn something old, which is always unpleasant, regardless of Machines and social conditioning.
Why?
Why is it always unpleasant?
Don't get me wrong, I can feel it is unpleasant, I agree it usually is, but why is that?
It's almost so intuitively unpleasant, you look straight past it without realising it doesn't actually make sense, why would adapting, unlearning, changing our world-view automatically be something unpleasant?
Isn't that one of the lessons you can take from Discordia, the neophilic one? New stuff is awesome, smash your reality tunnel, and all that?
Debugging a program that was working fine just a moment ago is unpleasant, because it's hard work. But it has to be done, and you'll feel better afterwards.
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on August 25, 2010, 03:04:57 PM
Why?
Why is it always unpleasant?
Don't get me wrong, I can feel it is unpleasant, I agree it usually is, but why is that?
It's almost so intuitively unpleasant, you look straight past it without realising it doesn't actually make sense, why would adapting, unlearning, changing our world-view automatically be something unpleasant?
Isn't that one of the lessons you can take from Discordia, the neophilic one? New stuff is awesome, smash your reality tunnel, and all that?
Debugging a program that was working fine just a moment ago is unpleasant, because it's hard work. But it has to be done, and you'll feel better afterwards.
> But it has to be done, and you'll feel better afterwards.
Some actually enjoy eating bugs.
Bugs can fortify others.
Some lose.
Some win.
Others can fortify bugs.
Some bugs enjoy eating people
Others eat other bugs.
Quote from: Telarus on August 16, 2010, 06:30:44 AM
The Buddhist Sutra of Mindfulness speaks about the meditation on the corpse: meditate on the decomposition of the body, how the body bloats and turns violet, how it is eaten by worms until only bits of blood and flesh still cling to the bones, meditate up to the point where only white bones remain, which in turn are slowly worn away and turn into dust...
A fantastic post.
There is a beauty in coming to terms with what most would consider to be the ultimate horror. Beyond any shocking revelation, bending of perception, or catastrophic event that could unfold to put us in such a state. There is something to be said when one of the most horrific of ideas is a
simple fact. Death and decomposition over the decades has become so taboo most don't even acknowledge its existence until forced to confront it.
So horror then can be caused by even something well known, not unusual, not strange, nothing new...
Irrational- phobia?
But not regarded as being irrational...
I think I may be typing in circles here, I must apologize for that. However taking into consideration that 100 years really is not an obscene amount of time in the grand scheme of things; and at that point in time a family would clean, dress, and show their own recently deceased family members. It provides an interesting place to start looking at the developments and transitions we as humans go through that alter our perspectives of what is or is not horrifying.
Not 100% on my whole point, thanks for joining in the dysfunction of my mind as it drools on my computer screen...
Just as well I know great ideas can spawn from even the most redundant/silly of thoughts, so have at it.
Here's two things I don't quite get yet:
1) Horror relates to something outside of our field of knowledge about the natural world. Assuming I have interpreted the previous posts correctly, would miracles, then, be included into horror? Unless one accepts what the universe throws at them, as mentioned from earlier responses, an act of God would in fact shake one's understanding of their environment and thus horror comes into play. Am I right on this statement?
2) If fear is the feeling that something bad is about to happen, then what is courage? Would courage be simply the "fight" response to any fear-inducing scenario? If so, then everyone would have fear and that the term "fight your fears" would be questioned. Now that I think about it, what does it truly mean to use the "fight" response to fear?
1) No
2) Sphincter control.
Quote from: Mind King on December 26, 2010, 11:15:00 PM
1) Horror relates to something outside of our field of knowledge about the natural world. Assuming I have interpreted the previous posts correctly, would miracles, then, be included into horror? Unless one accepts what the universe throws at them, as mentioned from earlier responses, an act of God would in fact shake one's understanding of their environment and thus horror comes into play. Am I right on this statement?
Depends on the person I think. For people who think miracles happen all the time, no, not horror at all. For one of the new atheists on the other hand, horror would be pretty expected (but not as much as if the concept of miracles wasn't in our culture).
Quote from: Mind King on December 26, 2010, 11:15:00 PM
Here's two things I don't quite get yet:
1) Horror relates to something outside of our field of knowledge about the natural world. Assuming I have interpreted the previous posts correctly, would miracles, then, be included into horror? Unless one accepts what the universe throws at them, as mentioned from earlier responses, an act of God would in fact shake one's understanding of their environment and thus horror comes into play. Am I right on this statement?
2) If fear is the feeling that something bad is about to happen, then what is courage? Would courage be simply the "fight" response to any fear-inducing scenario? If so, then everyone would have fear and that the term "fight your fears" would be questioned. Now that I think about it, what does it truly mean to use the "fight" response to fear?
Take it from a Doktor, the answers are all there in the OP. Read it again.
All right, Phox. I might have missed something in this thread.
Quote from: Mind King on December 27, 2010, 03:13:12 AM
All right, Phox. I might have missed something in this thread.
Um, yeah. Both of your questions were answered in the OP.
Oh, duh. How did I miss that? Okay, that answers my questions.
Now I'm thinking about horror flics. I guess from this logic, not all movies in that genre are actually horror.
Quote from: Mind King on December 27, 2010, 03:18:05 AM
Oh, duh. How did I miss that? Okay, that answers my questions.
Now I'm thinking about horror flics. I guess from this logic, not all movies in that genre are actually horror.
Wrong kind of "horror".
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
So, if it forces me to unlearn something, this means the appropriate response is horror?... Sure, I get a little ticked about the inconvenience, but I've gotten pretty used to it by now... Still, the fear of the unknown does seem to strike some people rather deeply.
Rereading the stuff I've written, or observing my older drawings always gives me this sick feeling, it's something I prefer not to do... I suppose the concept of death is quite unpleasant, but it doesn't scare me as much as the possibility of being maimed for the rest of my life. I suppose that's as close to "horror" as I get these days, except for the occasional spooky phantom (or ghost, or whatever) sighting, or glowing eyes in the dark. Change is the only thing I've found to be a constant in life, and for ghosts, there are cats (who's eyes have odd reflective properties and freak me out a little anyway).
Also, telephone calls to or from relatives almost always result in a deep sense of dread. It's not that I don't like them, I just don't like the things they often want to talk to me about.
Quote from: Fujikoma on December 27, 2010, 01:59:17 PM
So, if it forces me to unlearn something, this means the appropriate response is horror?... Sure, I get a little ticked about the inconvenience, but I've gotten pretty used to it by now... Still, the fear of the unknown does seem to strike some people rather deeply.
Horror != Fear != Loathing.
Goddammit.
My shrink told me I was abused as a child!
Horror + Fear + Loathing.
I just found out my shrink lied to get a grant!
Horror + Fear + Loathing.
!= means "does not equal".
Just saying.
Quote from: Mind King on December 27, 2010, 03:24:07 AM
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
ETA: Of course, most "horror movies" would more accurately be called "fear movies," by the definitions in the OP.
Quote from: Epimetheus on December 27, 2010, 09:24:51 PM
Quote from: Mind King on December 27, 2010, 03:24:07 AM
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
No, they experience fear.
I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2010, 09:26:16 PM
Quote from: Epimetheus on December 27, 2010, 09:24:51 PM
Quote from: Mind King on December 27, 2010, 03:24:07 AM
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
No, they experience fear.
I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.
I must admit I am a B horror movie nut. :cry:
Pray for me.
Quote from: Charley Brown on December 27, 2010, 09:30:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2010, 09:26:16 PM
Quote from: Epimetheus on December 27, 2010, 09:24:51 PM
Quote from: Mind King on December 27, 2010, 03:24:07 AM
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
No, they experience fear.
I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.
I must admit I am a B horror movie nut. :cry:
Pray for me.
Oh dear Gods Charley, you and I hold something in common....
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 27, 2010, 09:34:31 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on December 27, 2010, 09:30:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2010, 09:26:16 PM
Quote from: Epimetheus on December 27, 2010, 09:24:51 PM
Quote from: Mind King on December 27, 2010, 03:24:07 AM
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
No, they experience fear.
I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.
I must admit I am a B horror movie nut. :cry:
Pray for me.
Oh dear Gods Charley, you and I hold something in common....
Damn. Is it 2012 yet? :lulz:
Quote from: Charley Brown on December 27, 2010, 09:30:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2010, 09:26:16 PM
Quote from: Epimetheus on December 27, 2010, 09:24:51 PM
Quote from: Mind King on December 27, 2010, 03:24:07 AM
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
No, they experience fear.
I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.
I must admit I am a B horror movie nut. :cry:
Pray for me.
Oh, I'm down with "Night of the Lepus" and "Them", but I find the various "Friday the Thirteenth, Part XXXIV" chop flicks to be devoid of any valuable content, Buldada-wise or not.
Quote from: Ratatosk on December 27, 2010, 09:34:31 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on December 27, 2010, 09:30:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 27, 2010, 09:26:16 PM
Quote from: Epimetheus on December 27, 2010, 09:24:51 PM
Quote from: Mind King on December 27, 2010, 03:24:07 AM
I know that. I mean that the terms fear and horror are jumbled back and forth in the media without regard to what they mean. It's just kind of funny to me.
I think what you mean is that as a member of the movie audience, "horror" does not apply to your experience, because you are just watching what you know is fiction.
But horror movie means that the events in the movie are horror-filled. And the victims experience horror.
That justifies the use of the term to me.
No, they experience fear.
I, on the other hand, experience loathing by watching those cinematic horse droppings.
I must admit I am a B horror movie nut. :cry:
Pray for me.
Oh dear Gods Charley, you and I hold something in common....
Bad Sci-fi is also a favorite. Every time I stop on the sy-fy channel Terri moans. For a very short time I thought it was turning her on.
I'm not a fan of the more recent horror flics. It's not because I'm scared of them (I'm scared, regardless). It's just that there's no structure. It's just a long quiet pause with some bloody child jumping out of a closet screaming his or her head off. I mean some movies, like Frailty and Creepshow (creepshow isn't scary, but the concepts in the story is) had something that I would say are, without hesitance to say, scary. We need better horror movies.
50 suspence scenes != 1 good horror movie.
Kudos, Roger, for speaking my language.
Roger speaks the universal language of hate.
Quote from: Mind King on December 28, 2010, 08:19:37 PM
We need better horror movies.
Wishes, commands,
et al...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419RBC6J4JL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Quote from: Doktor Phox on December 28, 2010, 08:20:45 PM
Roger speaks the universal language of hate.
In person, I just make these weird guttural noises, and everything around me warps and distorts.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on December 28, 2010, 08:22:44 PM
Quote from: Mind King on December 28, 2010, 08:19:37 PM
We need better horror movies.
Wishes, commands, et al...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/419RBC6J4JL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
CANNOT UNSEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
I've come to a rather unusual place in my internal undoings. Though I must admit its seems quite familiar in a de ja vu/ lucid dream type way but Im awake.
I don't really ever seem to experience fear anymore. I mean I get the natural impulse's not to touch hot shit and apply pressure to the brakes in my car as needed.
But I cannot see myself being afraid of anything.
Ill run down a short list.
FEAR:
Disease------ no cause Ill just die eventually and it won't really be all that bad anyway since it will eventually end.
A world wide corporate fascist state taking over and herding us into death camps etc,etc,etc. Were all familiar with these types of scenarios Im sure".------ Na doesn't bother me, It'd give me a chance to act out on my Mad Max beyond thunder dome fantasies.
Death of family friend or beloved pets------- Na I mean I love them and all but na not afraid just a slightly disappointed acceptance.
Afraid of the fukushima world wide radio active rain,tsunamis,earthquakes,asteroids, hurricanes. Na Im pretty sure I don't mind such things at all The world does need to rinse itself off once in a while.
Dont get me wrong If I see people or animals who are hurt or need help I'll be the first one there. But I really just can't get riled up about the impermanence of well being. :)
....................................................
LOATHING- I can see in remnants of what I used to have loathsome feelings towards in the past like George Bush,Obama,the drug war or any other war,Basically any machination or representative of the state or religion.
Loathsome of shitty music ,movies,tv shows, etc etc etc. Its all a divine comedy expertly designed and carried out for a pretty spectacularly ironic audience.
I just don't feel loathing for anything anymore. Other than the initial kneejerk dying out of old reaction patterns to such stimuli. I remember that its all 1 infinite presence playing discordian type jokes with perceptions that same 1 infinite presence gave fruit of in the first place.
Like its playing peekaboo with itself and having jab fests with itself in a divine ass puppet show for its own amusement.
.........................................
Horror- As I'm thinking about this right now it stands to reason that If I cannot really muster the imagination to feel fear or loathing at this point what could ever foreseeably ever happen for me to feel genuine horror?
I'm drawing a blank.
On a sidenote I found out that the guys from MST3K have a new project called RiffTrax. Im sure some of you knew this already I just thought I'd throw it out there :)
http://www.rifftrax.com/
Quote from: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 22, 2011, 05:55:01 PM
I don't really ever seem to experience fear anymore.
I just don't feel loathing for anything anymore.
Horror- As I'm thinking about this right now it stands to reason that If I cannot really muster the imagination to feel fear or loathing at this point what could ever foreseeably ever happen for me to feel genuine horror?
So, in short, you're a food tube.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 23, 2011, 11:51:05 PM
Quote from: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 22, 2011, 05:55:01 PM
I don't really ever seem to experience fear anymore.
I just don't feel loathing for anything anymore.
Horror- As I'm thinking about this right now it stands to reason that If I cannot really muster the imagination to feel fear or loathing at this point what could ever foreseeably ever happen for me to feel genuine horror?
So, in short, you're a food tube.
I suppose someone like you could define it like that and think its funny.
It's had many many names.
None really do it justice.
But I'm Just some dumb hippy that listens to death metal and reads silly new age books that he thinks are ridiculous.
You've had me pegged all along.
Your sharp ;)
Quote from: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 12:45:32 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 23, 2011, 11:51:05 PM
Quote from: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 22, 2011, 05:55:01 PM
I don't really ever seem to experience fear anymore.
I just don't feel loathing for anything anymore.
Horror- As I'm thinking about this right now it stands to reason that If I cannot really muster the imagination to feel fear or loathing at this point what could ever foreseeably ever happen for me to feel genuine horror?
So, in short, you're a food tube.
I suppose someone like you could define it like that and think its funny.
It's had many many names.
None really do it justice.
But I'm Just some dumb hippy that listens to death metal and reads silly new age books that he thinks are ridiculous.
You've had me pegged all along.
Your sharp ;)
"You're".
You're welcome.
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok? He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!
Quote from: Jenkem and SPACE/TIME on July 24, 2011, 01:29:49 AM
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok? He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!
I was bitter about education my first day of kindergarten.
Alright everyone get in a single file.
Fuck This!
The American education system is a fucking sham.
In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.
I did pretty well.
The stoners who would cut class to come out to the woods and hang out with me and learn about what I was reading would get credits for it.
My principal and guidance counselor thought pretty highly of me.
I aced the state required testing and graduated without ever sitting in a classroom ;)
Quote from: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 01:46:12 AM
In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.
I did pretty well.
Yes, that Wilhelm Reich Orgone technology has made you the man you are today.
Quote from: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 01:46:12 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and SPACE/TIME on July 24, 2011, 01:29:49 AM
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok? He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!
I was bitter about education my first day of kindergarten.
Alright everyone get in a single file.
Fuck This!
The American education system is a fucking sham.
In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.
I did pretty well.
The stoners who would cut class to come out to the woods and hang out with me and learn about what I was reading would get credits for it.
My principal and guidance counselor thought pretty highly of me.
I aced the state required testing and graduated without ever sitting in a classroom ;)
I dropped out of third grade and taught myself under conditions of poverty, deprivation, abuse, and neglect. I had a bicycle and a library card... the library was five miles away.
Yet, miraculously, I STILL learned critical thinking.
Lol.
For a guy who doesn't care what anyone here thinks of him, he seems mighty desperate to impress, what with his tales about his big-breasted Norwegian girlfriend and his autodidactic prowess.
Quote from: Nigel on July 24, 2011, 01:57:56 AM
Quote from: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 01:46:12 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and SPACE/TIME on July 24, 2011, 01:29:49 AM
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok? He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!
I was bitter about education my first day of kindergarten.
Alright everyone get in a single file.
Fuck This!
The American education system is a fucking sham.
In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.
I did pretty well.
The stoners who would cut class to come out to the woods and hang out with me and learn about what I was reading would get credits for it.
My principal and guidance counselor thought pretty highly of me.
I aced the state required testing and graduated without ever sitting in a classroom ;)
I dropped out of third grade and taught myself under conditions of poverty, deprivation, abuse, and neglect. I had a bicycle and a library card... the library was five miles away.
Yet, miraculously, I STILL learned critical thinking.
But you know NOTHING of monopole magnets and perpetual motion! NOTHING!
Quote from: Cain on July 24, 2011, 02:00:27 AM
Lol.
For a guy who doesn't care what anyone here thinks of him, he seems mighty desperate to impress, what with his tales about his big-breasted Norwegian girlfriend and his autodidactic prowess.
Important note: She cooks for him. Don't forget that.
Quote from: Cain on July 24, 2011, 02:00:27 AM
Lol.
For a guy who doesn't care what anyone here thinks of him, he seems mighty desperate to impress, what with his tales about his big-breasted Norwegian girlfriend and his autodidactic prowess.
They really are very nice titties. She's a pretty good cook too.
Did I ever tell you about the time I proved Einstein's theory of relativity wrong? Funny story.
;)
:troll:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2011, 01:47:47 AM
Quote from: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 01:46:12 AM
In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.
I did pretty well.
Yes, that Wilhelm Reich Orgone technology has made you the man you are today.
His body of work it quite a bit larger than the topic of orgone energy. I would have assumed such a scholarly lad such as yourself would have known that.
Here is one of my favorites from his catalog.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mass_Psychology_of_Fascism
Quote from: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 02:11:52 AM
Did I ever tell you about the time I proved Einstein's theory of relativity wrong? Funny story.
Jesus Christ. :lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2011, 02:22:18 AM
Quote from: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 02:11:52 AM
Did I ever tell you about the time I proved Einstein's theory of relativity wrong? Funny story.
Jesus Christ. :lulz:
;)
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 24, 2011, 02:01:18 AM
Quote from: Nigel on July 24, 2011, 01:57:56 AM
Quote from: SmokeyMcChickenson on July 24, 2011, 01:46:12 AM
Quote from: Jenkem and SPACE/TIME on July 24, 2011, 01:29:49 AM
You just don't GET IT, do you, Dok? He doesn't care, and is bitter about his education!
I was bitter about education my first day of kindergarten.
Alright everyone get in a single file.
Fuck This!
The American education system is a fucking sham.
In high school I cut every class and went to the library and out to the woods and educated myself.
I did pretty well.
The stoners who would cut class to come out to the woods and hang out with me and learn about what I was reading would get credits for it.
My principal and guidance counselor thought pretty highly of me.
I aced the state required testing and graduated without ever sitting in a classroom ;)
I dropped out of third grade and taught myself under conditions of poverty, deprivation, abuse, and neglect. I had a bicycle and a library card... the library was five miles away.
Yet, miraculously, I STILL learned critical thinking.
But you know NOTHING of monopole magnets and perpetual motion! NOTHING!
:lulz:
Ehhm, I remember this album by one of those hipety-hopety djs that equated the horror with the passage of time.
It was terrifically funny. :x
Then I was like, what about the confirmation bias? If having to integrate horror is difficult on a neuro-chemical level, because of having to work against dominant feed-back loops, is this not the same as explaining things from the perceptual level?
Dopamine feeds that seeking behavior that rewards recognition over loss.
The confirmation bias supports recognizing things that already conform to a worldview over whatever horrible truth that may threaten it.
Recognition is the monster...
Quote from: LuciferX on October 03, 2011, 10:33:01 PM
Recognition is the monster...
Sounds fucking fine but this cognitive shrink I like to sodomize reminds me a little of the Semmelweis reflex. Really, you should look her up.
:pwned:
I put a piece of cantaloupe
Underneath the microscope.
I saw a million strange things sleepin',
I saw a zillion weird things creepin',
I saw some green things twist and bend–
I won't eat cantaloupe again.
-Shel Silverstein
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GyVx28R9-s
Quote from: Fujikoma on April 03, 2019, 08:01:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GyVx28R9-s
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? :crankey:
Here Dok, for the removal of the rancid flavor
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_tLNXSuF9kg
Also I just think you'd like this but haven't yet found a good place to drop it anywhere, it's been weeks, I'm just leaving it here
LMFAO, I don't know why I linked that.
I want to return to this with a special addendum.
The end result of horror is rejection of a natural order existing at all. Nothing is impossible, or if it is, some dumb bastard will bring it to your world real soon anyway. After a certain point, you no longer fall into the is-ought fallacy because there is no "ought". There is, there is not, and there normally would be if Jennifer from Idaho hadn't cocked this whole fucking thing up for you again. Ought is not a part of our world except in the minds of idealists, morons, and politicians.
QGP and my other activist friends may be quick to ask about my activism. That isn't an "ought", it is a "this is the logical outcome of what you profess to stand for" and a "this is how it's GOING to be one fine day if I get my fucking way."
Ought is for non-Doktors.
Quote from: nullified on November 25, 2019, 03:05:28 AM
I want to return to this with a special addendum.
The end result of horror is rejection of a natural order existing at all. Nothing is impossible, or if it is, some dumb bastard will bring it to your world real soon anyway.
I would disagree, at least in the general sense. Almost everything is impossible. The number of impossible things is
infinite.
To paraphrase the OP's definition, horror is when you discover that the line between possible and impossible doesn't lie where you thought it does; either something you thought impossible happens, or something you took for granted turns out to be impossible. Experience horror often enough, and you may learn that the exact boundary is unknowable, but that doesn't mean you can't make a fair guess.
Of course, I'm talking from a viewpoint of physical determinism (no perpetual motion machines allowed). You
can't make a "fair guess" regarding anything like a limit on the human capacity for evil (or stupidity), which makes humans a prodigious source of high-quality horror (which is I think is part of what you were getting at).
Nope.
If it's physically impossible, some mad bastard will find a way to AT LEAST convincingly fake it. Even if it's just bad signal. Witness the faster than light neutrino. Witness the flat earth movement. Even the physically impossible is meaningless, nothing but a never ending source of horror.
Once you stop being surprised, you've either decided that physics is STAYING THIS WAY FUCK YOU or you just start to admit that yes, technically speaking a grown cat can just materialize from nowhere in a locked safe, and no matter how improbable that is, there is no reason to believe that any particularly unlikely event is more unlikely in our lifespans than in someone else's. So fuck it. Let's just bask in this bullshit while we have it.
We know nothing for certain and will in fact never know anything for certain, that's the truth of things.
There's a bright side to horror, one the goddess has seen fit to show me. To the rest of you, this may seem to be a dark side. I assure you, the color pink is going to come into style with a vengeance befitting its long lack of acknowledgement, and Trump is going to thoroughly exhaust every kind of stupid ever thought, and a few which yet remain unmentioned, before packing up like the salesman from "the star-bellied sneeches" and moving on, leaving everyone feeling thoroughly foolish and naked. On the upside he'll be packing for hell, because he will be the first sitting president to be lawfully executed.
Quote from: nullified on November 25, 2019, 04:44:08 AM
Nope.
If it's physically impossible, some mad bastard will find a way to AT LEAST convincingly fake it. Even if it's just bad signal. Witness the faster than light neutrino.
That was a problem with a loose cable. They found it, and fixed it. This is how science works. This is normal.
Quote
Witness the flat earth movement.
There is no convincing fakery or mad bastards there; just some poor mundanes trying to make themselves feel special.
Quote
Even the physically impossible is meaningless, nothing but a never ending source of horror.
Physically impossible things don't happen. That's quite meaningful. Things we
think are physically impossible happen occasionally. This cuts into the development budget.
Quote
Once you stop being surprised,
Saying that everything is possible, and you can't be surprised anymore is the same as saying that the universe now makes sense to you. And since it makes sense, and
everything is horror, you're now ready for anything, right? Feels good?
But it doesn't work that way. Your brain is a pattern-matching engine made of meat, and although you can train it to laugh at horror, there will always be some combination of inputs that will
fucking freak you out, and there's nothing you can do to prevent that.
Quote
you've either decided that physics is STAYING THIS WAY FUCK YOU
Physics is staying the way it is. Our understanding of it isn't.
Quote
or you just start to admit that yes, technically speaking a grown cat can just materialize from nowhere in a locked safe, and no matter how improbable that is, there is no reason to believe that any particularly unlikely event is more unlikely in our lifespans than in someone else's.
My third-year materials-science professor, while lecturing on quantum tunneling, claimed that it was possible for a car to spontaneously tunnel through a wall. Then he went to the blackboard to compute how likely that was to happen, and
sweet goddess that was a large negative exponent.
Quote
We know nothing for certain and will in fact never know anything for certain, that's the truth of things.
Holy Nonsense, pg. 145, "There is a Moon (https://qgpennyworth.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/HolyNonsense2017-Online.pdf)". Don't rely on your memory of what it says; go and read it. When you come back, I'll be waiting.
With the Moon.
The point of flat earth is to show that monkeys are bad at understanding physical reality in an intuitive sense. The point of the neutrino thing is to show that we will be given surprises that make us go "HEY WAIT A SECOND THERE" even if we lock this shit down somehow.
Combine the two, and the result is that if someone pulls off a convincing enough magic trick and then dies, we end up only guessing.
Also, "physically impossible" can only ever mean "to the limits of our understanding of physics". This makes the distinction between "physically impossible" and "we think is physically impossible" functionally meaningless. It just keeps being horror.
Different kind of "stop being surprised". Jump scares work on almost everybody, even when they see them coming. There are lions and wolves from hundreds of thousands of years ago in our brains. We find some things innately terrible.
But there is all of that, and then there is the "time to reflect on everything I know" kind of horror, which is what I believe was meant here. You can definitely avoid the longer-lasting horror by simply accepting that yes, these things happen. It's supposed to be really weird but you know, fuck it.
Speaking of that, you also misunderstood my meaning of the cat materialization thing. Unless you claim that we have a privileged place in the universe, nothing favors any given time more than any other given time for really strange shit to happen. So unless someone's going to lose money over it, fuck it. Let's just believe this weird shit.
Finally, There is a Moon is compatible with my worldview. Important notes here: I am not rejecting apparent reality, I am accepting apparent reality even when that apparent reality is impossible by normal operating standards. And I am not trying to argue brain-in-a-jar shit: if the cat is in the safe, it must be in the safe for EVERYONE.
As a result: there is a moon, and it exists for everyone.
I admit that my worldview offers the option for the moon to stop existing for everyone rather spontaneously, but that's the only difference here. Once you realize how hard it is to find things in space, it becomes pretty clear that if something unexpectedly pulled the moon away from Earth it's very possible we would miss it happening.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on November 25, 2019, 01:19:47 PM
Saying that everything is possible, and you can't be surprised anymore is the same as saying that the universe now makes sense to you. And since it makes sense, and everything is horror, you're now ready for anything, right? Feels good?
But it doesn't work that way. Your brain is a pattern-matching engine made of meat, and although you can train it to laugh at horror, there will always be some combination of inputs that will fucking freak you out, and there's nothing you can do to prevent that.
Yoink?
Yeah, that was definitely a good bit.
I think the issue CNO and I are having here is mostly just misinterpretation. I'm not saying there are no physical impossibilities, I'm saying for all practical purposes worrying about the vast majority of them is just asking for Horror and giving up on Fun, because we don't know what they are and some fucker will find a way to trick us if we look hard enough.
That's why I went to the is-ought fallacy. The correct move when confronted with something wrong according to everything you know is not to say "NO! The sun OUGHT to rise in the East." It is to say "Well this is some bullshit and we need to document it so we can horrify the solar energy engineers."
And if/when it ends up being exposed as a fake? You have a laugh and the engineers sob in relief.
Quote from: nullified on November 25, 2019, 02:40:08 PM
Also, "physically impossible" can only ever mean "to the limits of our understanding of physics". This makes the distinction between "physically impossible" and "we think is physically impossible" functionally meaningless. It just keeps being horror.
At a point in history, it was considered impossible to split the atom. There was a doomsday device lurking in the gap between the actual impossible and the apparent impossible. I can't ignore that distinction.
Quote
Different kind of "stop being surprised". Jump scares work on almost everybody, even when they see them coming.
No, I was talking about the same kind of surprise you were. It's about thinking you're prepared for Trump's third elected term in office, not the jaguar lurking in the bushes.
Quote
Important notes here: I am not rejecting apparent reality, I am accepting apparent reality even when that apparent reality is impossible by normal operating standards.
I think that's our disconnect. I don't think it's possible to accept an apparent impossibility without at least a twinge of horror. I can't, anyway. I have a very deterministic worldview, and when my brain-meat encounters something that doesn't obey The Rules, it's not happy. I push through anyway, and rewrite The Rules, and even though Learning is Fun, it's still a mess, whether you call it horror, or enlightenment.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 25, 2019, 09:27:46 PM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on November 25, 2019, 01:19:47 PM
Saying that everything is possible, and you can't be surprised anymore is the same as saying that the universe now makes sense to you. And since it makes sense, and everything is horror, you're now ready for anything, right? Feels good?
But it doesn't work that way. Your brain is a pattern-matching engine made of meat, and although you can train it to laugh at horror, there will always be some combination of inputs that will fucking freak you out, and there's nothing you can do to prevent that.
Yoink?
Do as you will.
I think that is the disconnect, yeah.
I have actually gotten to the point where my reaction no longer really feels like it counts as horror.
Example: I witnessed a man screaming like he was dying in an alley today. His friend is standing next to him like ... slightly concerned.
"Something wrong?"
"It's just, you know, the worms, man? It gets this way sometimes."
And I nodded and wished them a good day, hope it gets better, all that.
Yeah, no, really. This happened. LMNO has probably seen that kind of thing before, maybe Cram too.
I don't think they were psychotic or delusional, I think they were probably talking about something I don't know anything about because it's not my business. I wasn't frightened, just natural human concern and then apparently unnatural acceptance of an apparently unnatural situation.
It's not that I can't be shocked, it's that my reaction to it is "well, what now?" I don't shut down or get existential or say "how".
Now, I used to! And it's perfectly fine to do so. But it's gotten to be so mentally exhausting to put any investment into things working "how they should" that I've rejected that phrase as being meaningful. Not even consciously. Just, as one thing leading to another, every day filled to the brim with "why" and "how". I don't have it in me anymore.
All that means is that your threshold for horror has shifted somewhere way the fuck over there.
I did an experiment and spent hours mocking myself from my other facebook account. Like internet age self mutilation. While doing that, I realized: There actually is a part of me inside that hates me relentlessly, and that fucker is pissed, because I don't let it talk very often. It hates everybody else too, but self censoring prevents it from informing anyone about it. So it does what it can, having only partial control of my body, mind and soul: self sabotage, anxiety attacks, insomnia, to lead me into the hell it things I deserve.
It wills me to suffer because I'm not good enough.
It wills me to die because it's tied in a chair watching shitty film about my miserable life in first person perspective.
I hate it back since that's what the murderous bastard deserves, but since it's still attached to me and I end up hating myself, basically giving it what it wants.
Fucking hell. Make friends with that little fucker. It only wants recognition and a hug.
Oh, maybe I can convince it to hate the others.
Fuck that no, I just found it, and I'm already hateful towards people I've thought of as friends JUST BECAUSE they've done some mean things to me.
That thing starts wars, and I'm already way too attuned to another, infamous of just that.
Eye for an I.
I'm gonna hunt that critter down. rip it out through my ear and store it in a jar.
There's no space for hatred in me right now.
That would totally ruin my revenge.
Quote from: LMNO on November 26, 2019, 06:58:19 PM
Fucking hell. Make friends with that little fucker. It only wants recognition and a hug.
Pliers help with this part.
The part of me that hates me has had its say, and it was not an easy time, nor was it short. Suffice to say it eventually ran out of steam and gave up. I can understand not knowing it's there, despite all the evidence, but it's important to make peace with it and have a "now what" conversation.
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 27, 2019, 06:29:33 AM
The part of me that hates me has had its say, and it was not an easy time, nor was it short. Suffice to say it eventually ran out of steam and gave up. I can understand not knowing it's there, despite all the evidence, but it's important to make peace with it and have a "now what" conversation.
That other you needs to wake up tied to a chair, with a bag over his head, smelling lighter fluid.
Seriously. Fuck that Jiminey Cricket bullshit. There ain't room in this skull for anyone but me. That's something I had to learn. I didn't really fix it, of course. Bastard's still back there, saying shit like "If you'd taken things more seriously, your whole life would have been different," and "Did you really have to take things
that far?
He can suck my ass. I like me the way I am. And yeah, I had to go there. If I didn't, I wouldn't be me. I'd be a damn door mat.
Sorry, Jiminey already did the waterboarding and execution, which I guess brings his lawful-good alignment into question, but he's sick of this shit and is prepared to admit that frequent masturbation is healthy, just not when your sister is watching.
(https://i.imgur.com/IHnvQ32.jpg)
forgot to post this when I finished it
I did another one
(https://i.imgur.com/gvLKSlR.jpg)
I like both. Nicely put into words and shape. Like those "deep" motivational quotes, but actually thought-provoking and relatable.
I know people who have seen shit (Military, Medical, "This was where I got my first PTSD") and can work in bad situations, have fetishes, BDSM, like Horror/Fear... and I saw them in normal situations where those people suddenly froze.
Being around dead people, fine. Hit by whips, fine. Abandoned in a pitch black space without an exit, fine. But eating a doughnut with a mushy consistency? Smelling burned ham? Getting cream in your skin? Hearing a certain ring tone?
Utterly unable to do anything.