Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Apple Talk => Topic started by: Golden Applesauce on November 17, 2013, 11:10:56 am

Title: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Golden Applesauce on November 17, 2013, 11:10:56 am
I've finally put my finger on what pisses me off about "holistic healers" or whatever they call themselves. It's that they understand the problem: modern/western/capitalist/whatever doctors elevating diseases in their particular specialty over the people who have them. And they understand the solution: treat the whole person.

And after having both of those insights what they actually do is crystal-flavored drivel. It is entirely fair to criticize psychiatrists that try to solve every problem by throwing drugs at it, regardless of what the problem actually is. But the exact same criticism applies to so-called healers who try to blast everything with spirit energy. The drug obsessed shrink is reducing all of his human patients to a puddle of chemicals, the holist is reducing his patients to waves of colored aura. Both refuse to recognize or treat any aspect of the patient that wasn't already their specialty.

Where are all the people who say, "I believe in treating the whole person. That's why I have thorough training in psychology, psychiatry, special needs education, endocrinology, regular education, relationship counseling, physical therapy, gynecology, career counseling, oncology, nutrition, and the top seven most common religions in my area." ???

I really don't want to have to pioneer this shit. Becoming a polymath sounds suspiciously like work.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on November 17, 2013, 11:52:18 am
People really are puddles of chemicals, though. Modern medicine has the right idea, it's just incredibly clumsy about it. "Auras," on the other hand, are not a medical reality. Besides, even if a disease is ultimately some kind of soul frustration, you're not going to fix it by following a strict regimen of ridiculous Westernized corruption of poorly understood traditions from cultures where people have no concept of repetitive 8-hour workdays or food that's digested more before you eat it than after. What pisses me off about holistic "medicine" is that it takes plain common sense "eat healthy food and live healthy habits" advice and dresses it up in so much hogwash that feeding your kids mind altering drugs actually looks like a good idea by comparison.

As for being a specialist in everything, any two week course in any trade at all will make you more qualified than most of the holistic "healers" out there.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 17, 2013, 02:09:39 pm
People aren't just chemicals, they're also the sum of their experiences and their internal narrative of self. A proper holistic approach to treating mental illness would be therapy AND drugs (as needed) AND exercise AND diet AND accessing environmental problems AND, yes, a dash of woo, because woo is actually pretty effective at some mental health problems and pain management. The problem is the current crop of morons are ALL WOO and very little else. and refuse to acknowledge that what they're doing is woo and that woo is only effective in a very narrow scope of cases. Woo will not cure your damn cancer, but it may help you get through chemo happier, and that's a valuable thing.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Cain on November 17, 2013, 03:03:15 pm
Quote
People aren't just chemicals, they're also the sum of their experiences and their internal narrative of self.

Which are also the result of chemicals.

Not that I'm disagreeing.  Evidence seems to show that, for example, a good beside manner, positive mental attitude and placebos (maybe) are beneficial in treating someone and improving quality of life while undergoing treatment.

But just because the physical processes by which those occur are ill-understood and not well studied it does not mean they are not occuring on a physical level somehow.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 17, 2013, 03:34:51 pm
Quote
People aren't just chemicals, they're also the sum of their experiences and their internal narrative of self.

Which are also the result of chemicals.

Not that I'm disagreeing.  Evidence seems to show that, for example, a good beside manner, positive mental attitude and placebos (maybe) are beneficial in treating someone and improving quality of life while undergoing treatment.

But just because the physical processes by which those occur are ill-understood and not well studied it does not mean they are not occuring on a physical level somehow.

This. One of the reasons I'm interested in neuroscience is because while taking psychology I became keenly aware that our perceptions of our experiences are the result of complex chemical workings in our bodies and brains; we are our biology, which is incredibly complex chemistry. Ultimately, it is all material.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 17, 2013, 03:48:28 pm
Regarding the OP, the NIH is way ahead of you. They've been promoting an interdisciplinary approach to biomedical research and medical treatment for several years, but you have to recognize that thorough training along the lines of your statement would take... let's see...

 "I believe in treating the whole person. That's why I have thorough training in psychology, psychiatry, special needs education, endocrinology, regular education, relationship counseling, physical therapy, gynecology, career counseling, oncology, nutrition, and the top seven most common religions in my area."

For "thorough" training in all those areas, you'd be talking about 36 years of school, if I'm being generous. So you probably will never see that kind of practitioner, at least not without some serious modification to the human lifespan. You have what, three medical specialties listed that typically take eight to ten years of training each? Even if you knock those back to four and only allot one year each to career counseling and nutrition, it's still kind of impossible for a person with a normal life span.

But even being more realistic, MDs and PhDs who are currently receiving the interdisciplinary training that the NIH considers vital for the future of medicine are probably, optimistically, six to ten years from graduation. And that's just the first wave; all  the oldschool practitioners are still going to be around for a while, and most medical schools haven't even started shifting their programs to adapt to the new paradigm yet. I would anticipate 20 to 30 years before the change is fully effected. In the meantime, though, at least the earliest waves of research should be emerging and helping to change the way the old guard thinks about medicine and health.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Golden Applesauce on November 17, 2013, 08:07:19 pm
Regarding the OP, the NIH is way ahead of you. They've been promoting an interdisciplinary approach to biomedical research and medical treatment for several years, but you have to recognize that thorough training along the lines of your statement would take... let's see...

 "I believe in treating the whole person. That's why I have thorough training in psychology, psychiatry, special needs education, endocrinology, regular education, relationship counseling, physical therapy, gynecology, career counseling, oncology, nutrition, and the top seven most common religions in my area."

For "thorough" training in all those areas, you'd be talking about 36 years of school, if I'm being generous. So you probably will never see that kind of practitioner, at least not without some serious modification to the human lifespan. You have what, three medical specialties listed that typically take eight to ten years of training each? Even if you knock those back to four and only allot one year each to career counseling and nutrition, it's still kind of impossible for a person with a normal life span.

But even being more realistic, MDs and PhDs who are currently receiving the interdisciplinary training that the NIH considers vital for the future of medicine are probably, optimistically, six to ten years from graduation. And that's just the first wave; all  the oldschool practitioners are still going to be around for a while, and most medical schools haven't even started shifting their programs to adapt to the new paradigm yet. I would anticipate 20 to 30 years before the change is fully effected. In the meantime, though, at least the earliest waves of research should be emerging and helping to change the way the old guard thinks about medicine and health.

Well that makes me hopeful. I've definitely seen doctors complaining about other doctors in field Y making mistakes that were solved years ago in field X, so I knew the establishment was aware of the problem, but I hadn't heard that there were any plans to seriously emphasize interdisciplinary training beyond just throwing seminars at it.

For the massive time investment required - yeaaaah forty years is probably being optimistic for that much stuff. What I'd really like to see is more cross-discipline teamwork. Right now, if you're lucky, your general practitioner, your therapist, and the specialist treating you for your specific physical ailment might pass notes to each other if you're lucky. It'd be cool if instead of a practice that had 6 different dentists or whatever, individual practices would have doctors from a variety of fields that all collaborated on everything.

People aren't just chemicals, they're also the sum of their experiences and their internal narrative of self. A proper holistic approach to treating mental illness would be therapy AND drugs (as needed) AND exercise AND diet AND accessing environmental problems AND, yes, a dash of woo, because woo is actually pretty effective at some mental health problems and pain management. The problem is the current crop of morons are ALL WOO and very little else. and refuse to acknowledge that what they're doing is woo and that woo is only effective in a very narrow scope of cases. Woo will not cure your damn cancer, but it may help you get through chemo happier, and that's a valuable thing.

Just wanted to emphasize the social relationships under "environment" category. If someone is depressed because they're actively being abused at home, no amount of SSRIs is going to solve their problem.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Salty on November 17, 2013, 08:21:18 pm
Quote
People aren't just chemicals, they're also the sum of their experiences and their internal narrative of self.

Which are also the result of chemicals.

Not that I'm disagreeing.  Evidence seems to show that, for example, a good beside manner, positive mental attitude and placebos (maybe) are beneficial in treating someone and improving quality of life while undergoing treatment.

But just because the physical processes by which those occur are ill-understood and not well studied it does not mean they are not occuring on a physical level somehow.

That last bit is so important to keep in mind, especially when offering or using any service that operates at that level. To allow the mind to wander into fuzzy speculation about how these things work is exactly how people get hurt, or fleeced, or both.
It seems even "open minded" people are just terrified about the possibility they understand very little about pretty much anything.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Salty on November 17, 2013, 08:31:37 pm
The only method for uncovering the useful and repeatable and practical benefits of holistic methods....actuall wait.

Let's look at that word. I spent ten years with the words Holistic Therpaist like a neon sign on the inside of my brain, trying to project it out. And that word gets to me.

The whole is more than the sum, ja? Cool. Let's take an example of an undeniably holsitic, perhaps the pinnacle of here in the 20th 21st Century.

You get your chakra attuned to an energy frequency that is all-healing, whole-making.

God, I nearly gagged writing that. Anyway, when those chakras get opened, what's supposed to come out? Reiki, life force, super prana, whatever. What ELSE can come out? The whole being sort of  vital here, that must surely include all the really terrible shit out there.

Holsitic medicine, such as it is, is entwined with the newage industy. And that industry is just that. The term newage comes from a publishing company (late 60s/early70s?) called New Age Book (or something).

Any holsitic method for health  useful or no, is hopelessly mired in newage fictions, cultural appropriation, snake oil, and bullshit.

Which is why it's important to weed out the non-science minded by creating a large rocket, putting all the WRONG PEOPLE in it and launch it into the sun.

Which, in a holsitic sense, would be beautiful.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Salty on November 17, 2013, 08:34:47 pm
The way around specialization is a sort of community of health practitioners and medically trained specialists working together towars a common good. Fortunately, insurance companies protect us from such things.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Golden Applesauce on November 17, 2013, 10:43:51 pm
Which is why it's important to weed out the non-science minded by creating a large rocket, putting all the WRONG PEOPLE in it and launch it into the sun.

Which, in a holistic sense, would be beautiful.

 :lulz:
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Golden Applesauce on November 18, 2013, 12:16:13 am
So, I've been doing some heavy reading on the treatment of trauma recently. There's obviously a lot of literature in psychotherapy about it, but what really struck me was how non-psychological fields dealt with the issue.

Take therapeutic massage / bodywork. "How do you massage someone who has traumatic memories of being raped?" is an important issue in that field. So is "What do you do when a client has a massive emotional meltdown on your table?" I've seen (not yet read) books and articles targeted towards people doing professional therapeutic bodywork that advance the position that they should learn more about the mind-body interface, but from the dust jackets they seem not to be required reading to become an LMT. The standard advice seems to be "remember that you are a physical therapist, not a psychologist, and respect your professional boundaries." And that's true - playing at being a doctor (or playing at being a different kind of doctor) will harm your patients. In particular there are an awful lot of ways that you can do serious harm to someone in the vulnerable state of having dissociated and started to relive memories of being raped and tortured. Problem: doing nothing, or trying ignore the abreaction, is one of those things.

At the other end, we have psychologists treating patients who have been so abused that they can't understand touching a human being in any way but sexually. Problem: they still have the the basic human drive for reassuring physical contact. The therapist can't let them hug him, because they start grinding or groping. But they still want (need?) to be held as they work through all of their experiences, and they definitely need to desensitize themselves to touch at some point. If only there was a class of professionals who specialized in therapeutic and rigorously non-sexual touch who might be able to help... But that would mean at least two professionals from different backgrounds collaboratingone one patient, and that's just silly.

Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 18, 2013, 05:58:15 am
So, I've been doing some heavy reading on the treatment of trauma recently. There's obviously a lot of literature in psychotherapy about it, but what really struck me was how non-psychological fields dealt with the issue.

Take therapeutic massage / bodywork. "How do you massage someone who has traumatic memories of being raped?" is an important issue in that field. So is "What do you do when a client has a massive emotional meltdown on your table?" I've seen (not yet read) books and articles targeted towards people doing professional therapeutic bodywork that advance the position that they should learn more about the mind-body interface, but from the dust jackets they seem not to be required reading to become an LMT. The standard advice seems to be "remember that you are a physical therapist, not a psychologist, and respect your professional boundaries." And that's true - playing at being a doctor (or playing at being a different kind of doctor) will harm your patients. In particular there are an awful lot of ways that you can do serious harm to someone in the vulnerable state of having dissociated and started to relive memories of being raped and tortured. Problem: doing nothing, or trying ignore the abreaction, is one of those things.

At the other end, we have psychologists treating patients who have been so abused that they can't understand touching a human being in any way but sexually. Problem: they still have the the basic human drive for reassuring physical contact. The therapist can't let them hug him, because they start grinding or groping. But they still want (need?) to be held as they work through all of their experiences, and they definitely need to desensitize themselves to touch at some point. If only there was a class of professionals who specialized in therapeutic and rigorously non-sexual touch who might be able to help... But that would mean at least two professionals from different backgrounds collaboratingone one patient, and that's just silly.

Why would that be silly? I'd rather two specialists working on me in tandem rather than a generalist taking the whole thing on. In medical professions you sometimes have teams of doctors. Why should psychology be any different? What about someone who is a POW priest victim with an eating disorder? I don't suspect that happens often but why would three different specialists be silly at that point?
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Golden Applesauce on November 18, 2013, 02:39:09 pm
Sorry, that was sarcarsm.

What about someone who is a POW priest victim with an eating disorder? I don't suspect that happens often but why would three different specialists be silly at that point?

Here's the really crushing thing: it's not all that uncommon. Eating disorders frequently accompany child abuse. Everything from the oral stimulation of eating triggering associations with being forced to perform fellatio, to victims of forced pornography and prostitution needing to maintain an specific figure or else they'll be handed over to even more sadistic clients, to mundane relational abuse that incorporates body image as just one more way in which the child is worthless trash.

The other thing is that we're learning that trauma is, statistically, normal. The DSM-III was wrong when it defined trauma as "outside the realm of normal experience." Humanity has had a war going on somewhere at any given time for longer than we have recorded history. Psychologists have just had the luxury of living in a not-war-zone for a while, until having to treat all the Vietnam War vets made them sit up and pay attention. The priest abuse scandal is similar: it used to be really easy for people to dismiss stories of child abuse as delusional, attention-seeking fantasy, especially if the person is already crazy enough to be in psychiatric treatment. A big argument in the recovered memory controversy was that doctors were allegedly "uncovering" child abuse victims at a much higher rate than there could possibly be child abuse. If there were that many adults going around abusing children, surely we'd have heard of more cases? And the priest scandal comes out, along with some other nasty scandals involving institutional abuse, and suddenly anonymous phone surveys are putting the rates of child abuse and incest at 15%, minimum. It turns out that all along it was easier to believe in the existence of one attention seeking liar than to admit the existence of all of the good people who would have had to turn a blind eye to people raping and torturing children. It's starting to look like child abuse is more common than, for instance, homosexuality.

Sorry, my head is in a really depressing place right now.

Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Hoopla! on November 18, 2013, 02:52:32 pm

Where are all the people who say, "I believe in treating the whole person. That's why I have thorough training in psychology, psychiatry, special needs education, endocrinology, regular education, relationship counseling, physical therapy, gynecology, career counseling, oncology, nutrition, and the top seven most common religions in my area." ???

That sounds like some serious schooling.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 18, 2013, 03:07:59 pm
People aren't just chemicals, they're also the sum of their experiences and their internal narrative of self. A proper holistic approach to treating mental illness would be therapy AND drugs (as needed) AND exercise AND diet AND accessing environmental problems AND, yes, a dash of woo, because woo is actually pretty effective at some mental health problems and pain management. The problem is the current crop of morons are ALL WOO and very little else. and refuse to acknowledge that what they're doing is woo and that woo is only effective in a very narrow scope of cases. Woo will not cure your damn cancer, but it may help you get through chemo happier, and that's a valuable thing.

If I have strep throat, I don't need any woo or any counseling.  The "whole person" approach is a waste of time.

If I have heart disease, then I probably need everything including my own brand of woo (which does NOT include "Chinese traditional medicine").

If I have stage 4 pancreatic cancer, then I need the clergy.  And morphine.  Lots and lots of morphine.

So, yeah, the "whole person" approach is sometimes useful.  "Holistic medicine", taken literally, is not a bad thing, if by "holistic" you mean "all facets approach" and not "some filthy hippie shit".  Unfortunately, when people say "holistic", they almost certainly mean the latter.


Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 18, 2013, 03:45:12 pm
People really are puddles of chemicals, though.

I reject this on account of Papa Hemmingway and Rudyard Kipling.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 18, 2013, 06:32:04 pm
People aren't just chemicals, they're also the sum of their experiences and their internal narrative of self. A proper holistic approach to treating mental illness would be therapy AND drugs (as needed) AND exercise AND diet AND accessing environmental problems AND, yes, a dash of woo, because woo is actually pretty effective at some mental health problems and pain management. The problem is the current crop of morons are ALL WOO and very little else. and refuse to acknowledge that what they're doing is woo and that woo is only effective in a very narrow scope of cases. Woo will not cure your damn cancer, but it may help you get through chemo happier, and that's a valuable thing.

If I have strep throat, I don't need any woo or any counseling.  The "whole person" approach is a waste of time.

If I have heart disease, then I probably need everything including my own brand of woo (which does NOT include "Chinese traditional medicine").

If I have stage 4 pancreatic cancer, then I need the clergy.  And morphine.  Lots and lots of morphine.

So, yeah, the "whole person" approach is sometimes useful.  "Holistic medicine", taken literally, is not a bad thing, if by "holistic" you mean "all facets approach" and not "some filthy hippie shit".  Unfortunately, when people say "holistic", they almost certainly mean the latter.

One of the places that the traditional Western approach to medicine fails is that not only do we tend to compartmentalize people and illnesses into body parts and categories of disease, but we are, functionally, disease fetishists. We don't tend to focus on how to be healthy, we focus on how to treat disease, and all too often we treat it as if the rest of the person is not connected to the diseased part. A patient with strep throat does call for a holistic approach, and there's nothing woo about that. Strep throat can cause, or be caused by, health issues that affect the whole body.

The focus is gradually shifting, as it should, toward preventing disease, and toward wellness care. There is a growing awareness that a patient's strep throat might actually HAVE a connection to their heart disease. It's taking too long, but it's happening.

Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 18, 2013, 06:39:21 pm
Quote
The focus is gradually shifting, as it should, toward preventing disease, and toward wellness care. There is a growing awareness that a patient's strep throat might actually HAVE a connection to their heart disease. It's taking too long, but it's happening.

Is there any significant shift yet towards incorporating mental health into run of the mill diagnoses? "You've got strep throat, that's sorted. How's work and the family?" kind of thing. I've seen a more of it in the UK approach in the last 10 years or so, while I don't think it's always going to catch anything it does occasionally get something (usually depression) from time to time.

With the general fuckup that is the USA attitude to mental health, I somehow doubt it but that could potentially do a lot to lower all sorts of bad shit. Catching one guy pre-shooting-spree would probably make it worthwhile and I suspect you'd stop more than one guy.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Reginald Ret on November 18, 2013, 06:47:32 pm
Antibiotics are a good subject when discussing holistic medicine.
They are too often used to fight something that is at most an annoyance, and which would clear up in one to two weeks anyway.
In these cases the disregard for the effect of antibiotics on mouth, skin and intestinal biota is really really stupid. Antibiotics do horrible, horrible things to the poor little E. Coli and his friends. Won't someone think of our little dependents? Especially when you are treating someone who had his appendix cut out. From what i hear that functions as a seedbank for the cool shitty bacteria.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 18, 2013, 06:48:47 pm
Antibiotics are a good subject when discussing holistic medicine.
They are too often used to fight something that is at most an annoyance, and which would clear up in one to two weeks anyway.

Can you give me an example?
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 18, 2013, 06:55:12 pm
Scratch that.  Never mind.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Reginald Ret on November 18, 2013, 07:12:36 pm
Antibiotics are a good subject when discussing holistic medicine.
They are too often used to fight something that is at most an annoyance, and which would clear up in one to two weeks anyway.

Can you give me an example?
Regular throat infections. They tend to clear up in 7-14 days. Of course, if you have pervious experience that indicates that yours never clear up in that timeframe, by all means commit bacterial genocide. as soon as you want (Oh, and go to a doctor anyway, don't mess around with your health).
On average people do not benefit from antibiotics in such instances, but you and i both know how averages do not apply to everyone.
Oh. and don't take risks if you have other risk factors.

My source (Dutch, sorry):
This Blog from a Doctor (http://www.nicovanduijn.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15:antibiotica&catid=12:dokteren&Itemid=10)
Where he mentions the Dutch College of General Practitioners Guidelines (https://www.nhg.org/standaarden/volledig/nhg-standaard-acute-keelpijn). (Also Dutch, sorry again. Maybe Google-Translate won't garble it too much?)
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Golden Applesauce on November 18, 2013, 10:24:30 pm
Building on what Regret said - I'm one of the "other risk factors" exception. The drugs I take stop my arthritis from eating my finger bones are immunosuppressants. So I'd definitely need to consult with my rheumatologist. She'd probably yank me off the immunosuppressants, maybe switch me to something else for the duration, or something. That's within the amount of overhead that I as a patient can manage, but it's still a pain in the butt and it would be nice and less error-prone if I didn't have to do that manually.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 18, 2013, 10:25:01 pm
Quote
The focus is gradually shifting, as it should, toward preventing disease, and toward wellness care. There is a growing awareness that a patient's strep throat might actually HAVE a connection to their heart disease. It's taking too long, but it's happening.

Is there any significant shift yet towards incorporating mental health into run of the mill diagnoses? "You've got strep throat, that's sorted. How's work and the family?" kind of thing. I've seen a more of it in the UK approach in the last 10 years or so, while I don't think it's always going to catch anything it does occasionally get something (usually depression) from time to time.

With the general fuckup that is the USA attitude to mental health, I somehow doubt it but that could potentially do a lot to lower all sorts of bad shit. Catching one guy pre-shooting-spree would probably make it worthwhile and I suspect you'd stop more than one guy.

Yes, that's happening, but it's gradual and the problem with implementation is that doctors are often pushed to move patients through rapidly without adequate time talking to them about their lives. Making matters worse, some insurance companies have figured out that they can cut expenses by eliminating the specialist-referral system, so many patients can make appointments with specialists without ever seeing their GP. Specialists NEVER ask those kinds of questions.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 18, 2013, 10:28:43 pm
Antibiotics are a good subject when discussing holistic medicine.
They are too often used to fight something that is at most an annoyance, and which would clear up in one to two weeks anyway.
In these cases the disregard for the effect of antibiotics on mouth, skin and intestinal biota is really really stupid. Antibiotics do horrible, horrible things to the poor little E. Coli and his friends. Won't someone think of our little dependents? Especially when you are treating someone who had his appendix cut out. From what i hear that functions as a seedbank for the cool shitty bacteria.

Many people can automatically count on getting a secondary infection as soon as the antibiotics run their course, too. Women in particular are prone to outbreaks of candidiasis or other forms of vaginosis, and antibiotics can set off a yo-yo of infections that can take years to correct.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Golden Applesauce on November 18, 2013, 10:39:59 pm
People aren't just chemicals, they're also the sum of their experiences and their internal narrative of self. A proper holistic approach to treating mental illness would be therapy AND drugs (as needed) AND exercise AND diet AND accessing environmental problems AND, yes, a dash of woo, because woo is actually pretty effective at some mental health problems and pain management. The problem is the current crop of morons are ALL WOO and very little else. and refuse to acknowledge that what they're doing is woo and that woo is only effective in a very narrow scope of cases. Woo will not cure your damn cancer, but it may help you get through chemo happier, and that's a valuable thing.

If I have strep throat, I don't need any woo or any counseling.  The "whole person" approach is a waste of time.

If I have heart disease, then I probably need everything including my own brand of woo (which does NOT include "Chinese traditional medicine").

If I have stage 4 pancreatic cancer, then I need the clergy.  And morphine.  Lots and lots of morphine.

So, yeah, the "whole person" approach is sometimes useful.  "Holistic medicine", taken literally, is not a bad thing, if by "holistic" you mean "all facets approach" and not "some filthy hippie shit".  Unfortunately, when people say "holistic", they almost certainly mean the latter.

That's another often overlooked point. You can't specialize in one kind of woo and then expect to be able to bend your patients to fit it. Someone who was actually serious about woo as a component of holistic therapy would learn as many different styles & traditions of it as they could, figure out the core structural elements, and be able to produce a woo-system tailored to each specific patient's expectations and needs. I.e., treat the specific patient in front of you instead of the disease in your book, which exactly the thing they accuse the establishment of not doing. But that requires the ability to distinguish between "stuff that works" and "stuff that is true" and critical thinking skills, so I'm not going to hold my breath.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 18, 2013, 10:41:41 pm
That's another often overlooked point. You can't specialize in one kind of woo and then expect to be able to bend your patients to fit it.

Um, my woo would come from the clergy, and they most certainly do specialize.

Mostly in listening to outrageous death bed confessions to EVERYTHING.

If you have late stage pancreatic cancer, that's all you have left.  To fuck with people on the way out the door.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Junkenstein on November 18, 2013, 10:49:17 pm
Quote
The focus is gradually shifting, as it should, toward preventing disease, and toward wellness care. There is a growing awareness that a patient's strep throat might actually HAVE a connection to their heart disease. It's taking too long, but it's happening.

Is there any significant shift yet towards incorporating mental health into run of the mill diagnoses? "You've got strep throat, that's sorted. How's work and the family?" kind of thing. I've seen a more of it in the UK approach in the last 10 years or so, while I don't think it's always going to catch anything it does occasionally get something (usually depression) from time to time.

With the general fuckup that is the USA attitude to mental health, I somehow doubt it but that could potentially do a lot to lower all sorts of bad shit. Catching one guy pre-shooting-spree would probably make it worthwhile and I suspect you'd stop more than one guy.

Yes, that's happening, but it's gradual and the problem with implementation is that doctors are often pushed to move patients through rapidly without adequate time talking to them about their lives. Making matters worse, some insurance companies have figured out that they can cut expenses by eliminating the specialist-referral system, so many patients can make appointments with specialists without ever seeing their GP. Specialists NEVER ask those kinds of questions.

Nigel, appreciate that, thanks. I've got thoughts coming about mental health and insurance companies but it's late and I'm not thinking too well.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Golden Applesauce on November 18, 2013, 11:00:38 pm

Where are all the people who say, "I believe in treating the whole person. That's why I have thorough training in psychology, psychiatry, special needs education, endocrinology, regular education, relationship counseling, physical therapy, gynecology, career counseling, oncology, nutrition, and the top seven most common religions in my area." ???

That sounds like some serious schooling.

I'll admit I was thinking of the comic book character Dr. McNinja, who earned a Ph.D. in every field except Agriculture by cloning himself (with the help of Ben Franklin), having each clone get a different doctorate, and then merging them all together. (The clone with the doctorate in Agriculture was late to the merging party, and decided to live on a farm instead, calling himself "Old McNinja".) That absurd level of education, in one person, is clearly fantasy.

On the other hand, a lot of regular folks are in school from 4 to 24. That's twenty years of schooling, but you can't really claim that results in twenty years of education. A high school diploma means nothing, and you'd hardly call someone a "scholar" just for attaining a 4 year degree. There's room for improvement here.

The other thing is that we suck at educating adults. Once you've acquired enough job skills to get hired, there's little to none institutional support for continued education. If you're lucky your job gives you time off to attend seminars and workshops. But if your'e working 40-60 hours a week, when are you supposed to make time to practice new skills and do exploratory learning?
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on November 19, 2013, 01:29:47 am
I had the chance to do some research on Traditional Chinese Medicine a while back, and while i admit that there's a lot of shit within the wider world of holistic medicine that can be dismissed as hippy bullshit (as much as I hate pill-happy psychiatrists, i immediately discount any herbalist that would tell me that EVERYTHING can be solved with herbs),what I managed to take away from it was this:
TCM(and disciplines like it) aren't scientific, but they can still prove valuable. Practices like herbalism, yinyangism, or chakras came about thousands of years before there was  much in the way of an established scientific method as we know it today. So, instead of an organized methodology for forming and testing hypotheses, TCM owes its roots to more of a cultural tradition of trial and error. Basically, a healer had what he'd been told worked from whoever trained him, he tried it out on whoever he was called upon to heal, and if it worked, he kept on doing it, if it didn't, well... less so. As a result, you got tons of differing accounts of what things were good for what, and broader theories about the body were made to explain the things they observed, which is why it's still considered healthy in china to eat according to ones chi(is it warm, or cool? wet or dry?). And while it has lead to a number of fallacies (spoiler:ground tiger dong does nothing for virility) modern science has found some claims that hold true. There are some nuggets of useful knowledge there, it's just a matter of how much hippie bullshit you wanna wade through in order to find them
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 01:31:48 am
TCM(and disciplines like it) aren't scientific, but they can still prove valuable. Practices like herbalism, yinyangism, or chakras came about thousands of years before there was  much in the way of an established scientific method as we know it today. So, instead of an organized methodology for forming and testing hypotheses, TCM owes its roots to more of a cultural tradition of trial and error.

Yeah, that powdered Rhinoceros horn gets my dick good & hard.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on November 19, 2013, 01:48:47 am
Yea, that's exactly my point. because the field itself isn't scientific, it puts the impetus upon you, the patient, to do your research into what you're about to do; much in the way that not wanting to eat GMOs means you're probably gonna hafta buy your veggies from a farmer's market at twice the price.

You can either read up on which herbs are natural mood balancers and discover which ones work for your own personal body chemistry through trial and error, or you can take some prescription antidepressant that takes away your lows, and also your highs.

or some third thing. whatever floats your boat.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 01:49:59 am
Yea, that's exactly my point. because the field itself isn't scientific, it puts the impetus upon you, the patient, to do your research into what you're about to do; much in the way that not wanting to eat GMOs means you're probably gonna hafta buy your veggies from a farmer's market at twice the price.

You can either read up on which herbs are natural mood balancers and discover which ones work for your own personal body chemistry through trial and error, or you can take some prescription antidepressant that takes away your lows, and also your highs.

or some third thing. whatever floats your boat.

Outstanding.  I believe that I will also become an expert automotive mechanic before I go to get my oil changed.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on November 19, 2013, 01:57:20 am
Some people like fixing their own cars. And even when they don't, don't you check out if a mechanic is any good before you bring your car to him?

That's actually not a bad metaphor for alternative medicine practioners. Some will fix the engine, some will insist on putting in a brand new engine, and that your motor elf has worn out and a new one must be ordered from the shores of Avalon.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 19, 2013, 01:57:24 am
Yea, that's exactly my point. because the field itself isn't scientific, it puts the impetus upon you, the patient, to do your research into what you're about to do; much in the way that not wanting to eat GMOs means you're probably gonna hafta buy your veggies from a farmer's market at twice the price.

You can either read up on which herbs are natural mood balancers and discover which ones work for your own personal body chemistry through trial and error, or you can take some prescription antidepressant that takes away your lows, and also your highs.

or some third thing. whatever floats your boat.

Outstanding.  I believe that I will also become an expert automotive mechanic before I go to get my oil changed.

I gotta say dude. Your There Are Four Lights avatar is making some of your posts pure gold.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 01:59:57 am
Some people like fixing their own cars. And even when they don't, don't you check out if a mechanic is any good before you bring your car to him?

That's actually not a bad metaphor for alternative medicine practioners. Some will fix the engine, some will insist on putting in a brand new engine, and that your motor elf has worn out and a new one must be ordered from the shores of Avalon.  :lulz:

How about "allowing a self-taught, non-regulated random schmoe poke around in my car's fuel system"?
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 02:00:40 am
Yea, that's exactly my point. because the field itself isn't scientific, it puts the impetus upon you, the patient, to do your research into what you're about to do; much in the way that not wanting to eat GMOs means you're probably gonna hafta buy your veggies from a farmer's market at twice the price.

You can either read up on which herbs are natural mood balancers and discover which ones work for your own personal body chemistry through trial and error, or you can take some prescription antidepressant that takes away your lows, and also your highs.

or some third thing. whatever floats your boat.

Outstanding.  I believe that I will also become an expert automotive mechanic before I go to get my oil changed.

I gotta say dude. Your There Are Four Lights avatar is making some of your posts pure gold.

It's my favorite avatar to date, I think.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 19, 2013, 02:01:16 am
Some people like fixing their own cars. And even when they don't, don't you check out if a mechanic is any good before you bring your car to him?

That's actually not a bad metaphor for alternative medicine practioners. Some will fix the engine, some will insist on putting in a brand new engine, and that your motor elf has worn out and a new one must be ordered from the shores of Avalon.  :lulz:

How about "allowing a self-taught, non-regulated random schmoe poke around in my car's fuel system"?


"Um.... hmmmm. It might be the alternator"

Twid,
Doesn't actually know what an alternator does, or what it looks like. Just knows it exists.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 02:02:01 am
Some people like fixing their own cars. And even when they don't, don't you check out if a mechanic is any good before you bring your car to him?

That's actually not a bad metaphor for alternative medicine practioners. Some will fix the engine, some will insist on putting in a brand new engine, and that your motor elf has worn out and a new one must be ordered from the shores of Avalon.  :lulz:

How about "allowing a self-taught, non-regulated random schmoe poke around in my car's fuel system"?


"Um.... hmmmm. It might be the alternator"

Twid,
Doesn't actually know what an alternator does, or what it looks like. Just knows it exists.

It's the thing that keeps your tires evenly inflated by alternating the chi between them.

Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 19, 2013, 02:03:36 am
Some people like fixing their own cars. And even when they don't, don't you check out if a mechanic is any good before you bring your car to him?

That's actually not a bad metaphor for alternative medicine practioners. Some will fix the engine, some will insist on putting in a brand new engine, and that your motor elf has worn out and a new one must be ordered from the shores of Avalon.  :lulz:

How about "allowing a self-taught, non-regulated random schmoe poke around in my car's fuel system"?


"Um.... hmmmm. It might be the alternator"

Twid,
Doesn't actually know what an alternator does, or what it looks like. Just knows it exists.

It's the thing that keeps your tires evenly inflated by alternating the chi between them.

Cool. I'll tell Pat he can get back in the office because I got this.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 02:04:38 am
Some people like fixing their own cars. And even when they don't, don't you check out if a mechanic is any good before you bring your car to him?

That's actually not a bad metaphor for alternative medicine practioners. Some will fix the engine, some will insist on putting in a brand new engine, and that your motor elf has worn out and a new one must be ordered from the shores of Avalon.  :lulz:

How about "allowing a self-taught, non-regulated random schmoe poke around in my car's fuel system"?


"Um.... hmmmm. It might be the alternator"

Twid,
Doesn't actually know what an alternator does, or what it looks like. Just knows it exists.

It's the thing that keeps your tires evenly inflated by alternating the chi between them.

Cool. I'll tell Pat he can get back in the office because I got this.

If that doesn't work, we'll have to resort to acupuncture.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 19, 2013, 02:11:48 am
Some people like fixing their own cars. And even when they don't, don't you check out if a mechanic is any good before you bring your car to him?

That's actually not a bad metaphor for alternative medicine practioners. Some will fix the engine, some will insist on putting in a brand new engine, and that your motor elf has worn out and a new one must be ordered from the shores of Avalon.  :lulz:

How about "allowing a self-taught, non-regulated random schmoe poke around in my car's fuel system"?


"Um.... hmmmm. It might be the alternator"

Twid,
Doesn't actually know what an alternator does, or what it looks like. Just knows it exists.

It's the thing that keeps your tires evenly inflated by alternating the chi between them.

Cool. I'll tell Pat he can get back in the office because I got this.

If that doesn't work, we'll have to resort to acupuncture.  :lulz:

Oh man, tomorrow at practice, if he and Pete start talking cars, I should pull this sort of shit out. Last week I was talking with Villager about the seminar on phages I went to, and Pat was like, "Um.... I fix cars." It would be a nice little reminder to him that just because he fixes cars doesn't mean he's dumb, but rather the opposite (apparently he thinks that he is. I never picked up on it. I did mention to him once that the difference between a mechanic and a doctor was the difference between metal and meat, but that was fairly recent and just before I heard about this).
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 02:15:15 am
Some people like fixing their own cars. And even when they don't, don't you check out if a mechanic is any good before you bring your car to him?

That's actually not a bad metaphor for alternative medicine practioners. Some will fix the engine, some will insist on putting in a brand new engine, and that your motor elf has worn out and a new one must be ordered from the shores of Avalon.  :lulz:

How about "allowing a self-taught, non-regulated random schmoe poke around in my car's fuel system"?


"Um.... hmmmm. It might be the alternator"

Twid,
Doesn't actually know what an alternator does, or what it looks like. Just knows it exists.

It's the thing that keeps your tires evenly inflated by alternating the chi between them.

Cool. I'll tell Pat he can get back in the office because I got this.

If that doesn't work, we'll have to resort to acupuncture.  :lulz:

Oh man, tomorrow at practice, if he and Pete start talking cars, I should pull this sort of shit out. Last week I was talking with Villager about the seminar on phages I went to, and Pat was like, "Um.... I fix cars." It would be a nice little reminder to him that just because he fixes cars doesn't mean he's dumb, but rather the opposite (apparently he thinks that he is. I never picked up on it. I did mention to him once that the difference between a mechanic and a doctor was the difference between metal and meat, but that was fairly recent and just before I heard about this).

Both are real skills that take years to develop.  However, mechanics have a HUGE advantage...Our patient won't die if we leave the job for the day, or fuck something up.

Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 19, 2013, 02:24:08 am
Some people like fixing their own cars. And even when they don't, don't you check out if a mechanic is any good before you bring your car to him?

That's actually not a bad metaphor for alternative medicine practioners. Some will fix the engine, some will insist on putting in a brand new engine, and that your motor elf has worn out and a new one must be ordered from the shores of Avalon.  :lulz:

How about "allowing a self-taught, non-regulated random schmoe poke around in my car's fuel system"?


"Um.... hmmmm. It might be the alternator"

Twid,
Doesn't actually know what an alternator does, or what it looks like. Just knows it exists.

It's the thing that keeps your tires evenly inflated by alternating the chi between them.

Cool. I'll tell Pat he can get back in the office because I got this.

If that doesn't work, we'll have to resort to acupuncture.  :lulz:

Oh man, tomorrow at practice, if he and Pete start talking cars, I should pull this sort of shit out. Last week I was talking with Villager about the seminar on phages I went to, and Pat was like, "Um.... I fix cars." It would be a nice little reminder to him that just because he fixes cars doesn't mean he's dumb, but rather the opposite (apparently he thinks that he is. I never picked up on it. I did mention to him once that the difference between a mechanic and a doctor was the difference between metal and meat, but that was fairly recent and just before I heard about this).

Both are real skills that take years to develop.  However, mechanics have a HUGE advantage...Our patient won't die if we leave the job for the day, or fuck something up.

Damn straight. Though, it seems like your engineering skills usually have some sort of urgency attached due to massive incompetence on the part of your coworkers. :lulz:

Speaking of which, have you brought a radio to Ernie lately?
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 02:28:38 am

Damn straight. Though, it seems like your engineering skills usually have some sort of urgency attached due to massive incompetence on the part of your coworkers. :lulz:

Speaking of which, have you brought a radio to Ernie lately?

Naw.  I've been playing nice with him for political reasons.

Anyway, the thing is, people confuse talent, education, experience, and intelligence.

A competent mechanic must be experienced and intelligent.  Education is also important, but experience is most of that education.  This is why apprenticeships are so important.

Doctors must be educated and intelligent.  Experience can only be gained, really, after practice has begun.

Talent is just aptitude, and applies to both equally.

In other words, you can have an intelligent, uneducated person with experience in a field.

You can have an educated idiot with no talent.

Or you can have that rarest of things, a talented, educated, intelligent person with a ton of experience.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 19, 2013, 02:41:36 am

Damn straight. Though, it seems like your engineering skills usually have some sort of urgency attached due to massive incompetence on the part of your coworkers. :lulz:

Speaking of which, have you brought a radio to Ernie lately?

Naw.  I've been playing nice with him for political reasons.

Anyway, the thing is, people confuse talent, education, experience, and intelligence.

A competent mechanic must be experienced and intelligent.  Education is also important, but experience is most of that education.  This is why apprenticeships are so important.

Doctors must be educated and intelligent.  Experience can only be gained, really, after practice has begun.

Talent is just aptitude, and applies to both equally.

In other words, you can have an intelligent, uneducated person with experience in a field.

You can have an educated idiot with no talent.

Or you can have that rarest of things, a talented, educated, intelligent person with a ton of experience.

A few weeks ago, a friend of mine took a jab at me, Phox, and Coyote for pursuing college education when we decided to call him out on his shit and show his credentials (experience trumps education argument). Dude is also a mechanic who sells insurance on the side. I pointed out that since I'm going into the biology, experience is impossible without the formal training, the internships, etc. so while education may be irrelevant in his field, it is essential in mine. His experience makes him a better mechanic than I. My education makes me a better biologist than him.

Ultimately it was an argument borne out of the fact that he's a former Democrat gone Libertarian telling me that the road maintenance going on right outside my window at midnight was a necessary preventative measure and I decided to laugh at him about that because he hates PPACA and I found that highly ironic.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 02:45:46 am
A few weeks ago, a friend of mine took a jab at me, Phox, and Coyote for pursuing college education when we decided to call him out on his shit and show his credentials (experience trumps education argument).

Apples trump oranges!
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 19, 2013, 02:47:27 am
A few weeks ago, a friend of mine took a jab at me, Phox, and Coyote for pursuing college education when we decided to call him out on his shit and show his credentials (experience trumps education argument).

Apples trump oranges!

Exactly.  :lulz:

It's one of those arguments where you get a brief whiff of insecurity.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 02:49:27 am
A few weeks ago, a friend of mine took a jab at me, Phox, and Coyote for pursuing college education when we decided to call him out on his shit and show his credentials (experience trumps education argument).

Apples trump oranges!

Exactly.  :lulz:

It's one of those arguments where you get a brief whiff of insecurity.

Yeah, Mike the engineer is good for that, only with the argument reversed.  20 years of experience mean nothing without a graduate degree.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 19, 2013, 02:51:46 am
A few weeks ago, a friend of mine took a jab at me, Phox, and Coyote for pursuing college education when we decided to call him out on his shit and show his credentials (experience trumps education argument).

Apples trump oranges!

Exactly.  :lulz:

It's one of those arguments where you get a brief whiff of insecurity.

Yeah, Mike the engineer is good for that, only with the argument reversed.  20 years of experience mean nothing without a graduate degree.

Petroleum engineering is one of those things where you'd want to make sure everyone knew what they were doing, what with it being a volatile chemical and having it all done in a horror house with sapphire bits that would make an Assyrian cringe.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 02:52:39 am
A few weeks ago, a friend of mine took a jab at me, Phox, and Coyote for pursuing college education when we decided to call him out on his shit and show his credentials (experience trumps education argument).

Apples trump oranges!

Exactly.  :lulz:

It's one of those arguments where you get a brief whiff of insecurity.

Yeah, Mike the engineer is good for that, only with the argument reversed.  20 years of experience mean nothing without a graduate degree.

Petroleum engineering is one of those things where you'd want to make sure everyone knew what they were doing, what with it being a volatile chemical and having it all done in a horror house with sapphire bits that would make an Assyrian cringe.

We don't do petroleum.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 19, 2013, 02:53:08 am
A few weeks ago, a friend of mine took a jab at me, Phox, and Coyote for pursuing college education when we decided to call him out on his shit and show his credentials (experience trumps education argument).

Apples trump oranges!

Exactly.  :lulz:

It's one of those arguments where you get a brief whiff of insecurity.

Yeah, Mike the engineer is good for that, only with the argument reversed.  20 years of experience mean nothing without a graduate degree.

Petroleum engineering is one of those things where you'd want to make sure everyone knew what they were doing, what with it being a volatile chemical and having it all done in a horror house with sapphire bits that would make an Assyrian cringe.

We don't do petroleum.

I thought you worked for Big Oil?
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 02:53:51 am
A few weeks ago, a friend of mine took a jab at me, Phox, and Coyote for pursuing college education when we decided to call him out on his shit and show his credentials (experience trumps education argument).

Apples trump oranges!

Exactly.  :lulz:

It's one of those arguments where you get a brief whiff of insecurity.

Yeah, Mike the engineer is good for that, only with the argument reversed.  20 years of experience mean nothing without a graduate degree.

Petroleum engineering is one of those things where you'd want to make sure everyone knew what they were doing, what with it being a volatile chemical and having it all done in a horror house with sapphire bits that would make an Assyrian cringe.

We don't do petroleum.

I thought you worked for Big Oil?

I do, but at a chemical plant.  Think of us as the Igor to the evil madman.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 19, 2013, 02:54:37 am
A few weeks ago, a friend of mine took a jab at me, Phox, and Coyote for pursuing college education when we decided to call him out on his shit and show his credentials (experience trumps education argument).

Apples trump oranges!

Exactly.  :lulz:

It's one of those arguments where you get a brief whiff of insecurity.

Yeah, Mike the engineer is good for that, only with the argument reversed.  20 years of experience mean nothing without a graduate degree.

Petroleum engineering is one of those things where you'd want to make sure everyone knew what they were doing, what with it being a volatile chemical and having it all done in a horror house with sapphire bits that would make an Assyrian cringe.

We don't do petroleum.

I thought you worked for Big Oil?

I do, but at a chemical plant.  Think of us as the Igor to the evil madman.

Ah. Still stands though. Especially with the nasty sapphire stabby bits.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 19, 2013, 02:57:01 am

Ah. Still stands though. Especially with the nasty sapphire stabby bits.

And horrible Ed-flaying quartz material.  Don't forget that.

I know I never will.  :vom:

And I'm not a squeamish guy.
Title: Re: Will the real holistic medicine please stand up?
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on November 19, 2013, 02:58:25 am

Ah. Still stands though. Especially with the nasty sapphire stabby bits.

And horrible Ed-flaying quartz material.  Don't forget that.

I know I never will.  :vom:

And I'm not a squeamish guy.

I did forget that. Eek.