Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Literate Chaotic => Topic started by: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 09, 2018, 05:52:43 pm

Title: Incel
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 09, 2018, 05:52:43 pm
How sad it must be
to be a flower
that has never known the touch
of a woman or a girl

To never be taken in soft finger tips
and feel the brush of her nose
the gentle kiss of her breath
as she takes in your scent

To wilt away in obscurity
never seeing a quiet smile
cross her pretty face
to be carried away into the world

How sad
and how utterly normal
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 09, 2018, 05:56:00 pm
dang  :lulz:
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on July 09, 2018, 08:56:38 pm
I like that it's a totally different poem if you don't read the title
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on December 02, 2019, 06:02:41 am
(https://i.imgur.com/o9G5NSo.jpg)
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Fujikoma on December 02, 2019, 08:46:35 am
It's great, but I must add that most of these jackasses do everything they can to ensure they'll never be worthy of the love and affection of another, then they blame chad or stacy, completely ignoring their own toxic ignorance.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Cramulus on December 04, 2019, 02:45:36 pm
:mittens:

I love what you've done there.


It reminds me of the Contrapoints video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD2briZ6fB0) about Incels. She approaches with a soft touch - an attempt to understand, rather than mock. And to recognize that all this hateful behavior is fueled by an inner pain - and maybe the key to getting the incels to soften up is to recognize and understand that pain, rather than just dismissing it. Because we're all living in this 21st century Death Machine together, and it's grinding all of us in different ways.

I like how in this piece, you recognize the pain, and then disenchant it.

Because for those suffering that pain, they've rationalized it and justified it. Now they identify with it, just like all of us begin to identify with the ways we're crucified by the Empire. And they think that suffering makes them unique or noble, it lets them see things "how they really are".

But it is not the pain of the martyr

these are not the trials of the revolutionary, the messianic figure.

It is an every day pain
an every day loneliness


and if they recognized that
maybe it wouldn't transform them
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Faust on December 04, 2019, 03:25:32 pm
I love that contrapoints video, I've only really started watching her videos a couple of months back, was my RPG group introduced me to them.

I doubt they will be able to recognise that their pain isn't the pain of the leading man in some kind of Holywood drama.
Because the alternative, that that loneliness is every day, is normal and mundane, is horrifying to them because the only way to quell it, is to be comfortable and abide in that state.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: altered on December 04, 2019, 03:55:47 pm
Really just want to say that ContraPoints should be handled at arms length and with great reluctance.

She got caught supporting Buck Angel, a trans man who is insanely misogynistic.

A sampler: stalked, harassed and outed a trans woman in the hopes (he said this) that she would be murdered. No remorse.

This was before ContraPoints included him in one of her videos, by the by.

Also she shits all over non-binary people and pretends theyíre just going through a phase, so, you know, awful person from a few different angles. Best you could say is she probably knows her subject matter, being a horrible person like those she talks about.

Shun her.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Faust on December 04, 2019, 04:30:02 pm
Her videos are really well made, clear to understand from a non-trans persons point of view and shows really rounded critical thinking, and they are entertaining and funny.

I wont be shunning her for the same reason I would have preferred Kevin Spacey to be in the final season of House of Cards.
Because I enjoy it.

I'm not disputing any of what you have said null, but unless I was directly involved in or exposed to those things it is not my experience of her.

I no longer subscribe to Cancel Culture and use the same approach for all artists: if she has something interesting to say in a way I like I will continue to do so until she does not.

Faust: Listening to Gary Glitters Rock And Roll Part 2 since that movie last month because it's an awesome song, but would likely beat him within an inch of his life if ever put in a room with him.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 04, 2019, 04:32:54 pm
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Cramulus on December 04, 2019, 04:37:42 pm
I linked to her because I think the posture / attitude she uses to discuss contentious issues and the cultural rift is really effective


and QGs excellent writing felt like it was part of the same chord
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: altered on December 04, 2019, 06:02:31 pm
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.

This, basically.

A lot of people arenít really aware of what is bad about ContraPoints, so I definitely am trying to give them information they can use to make that decision themselves.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 04, 2019, 06:26:05 pm
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.

This, basically.

A lot of people arenít really aware of what is bad about ContraPoints, so I definitely am trying to give them information they can use to make that decision themselves.

I gotta go with Faust on this one, though.  I will still listen to David Bowie, for example, though if he were alive, I would never want to meet him.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: altered on December 04, 2019, 07:13:43 pm
Sure, and thatís your thing, and thatís fine.

My point was more ďhere are reasons not toĒ. I donít expect to change anyoneís mind here, this isnít a place to evangelize, unless youíre using your ass to do it. I may have come across more forceful than that, but I think my reasons and my history explain why that would be the case. The intent was milder and Iím not going to call you all shitgoblins for not following my lead.

I might call Cramulus a shitgoblin anyway, but thatís for the Eastern Terror of 2019 more than for his opinions. I canít be expected to forget the entire truck of radioactive Ďstache catching fire or the subsequent mutant Buddhists climbing buildings and howling for the end of dukkha. Nor can I be expected to FORGIVE.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Frontside Back on December 04, 2019, 07:18:11 pm
So is this too a toxic internet community that will ruin my mental health?
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 04, 2019, 07:18:57 pm
Sure, and thatís your thing, and thatís fine.

My point was more ďhere are reasons not toĒ. I donít expect to change anyoneís mind here, this isnít a place to evangelize, unless youíre using your ass to do it. I may have come across more forceful than that, but I think my reasons and my history explain why that would be the case. The intent was milder and Iím not going to call you all shitgoblins for not following my lead.

I might call Cramulus a shitgoblin anyway, but thatís for the Eastern Terror of 2019 more than for his opinions. I canít be expected to forget the entire truck of radioactive Ďstache catching fire or the subsequent mutant Buddhists climbing buildings and howling for the end of dukkha. Nor can I be expected to FORGIVE.

Forgiving Cramulus is just another way of saying "To Cramulus is okay."  It's permission.  The Cramulus will say that he has changed, that he has turned over a new leaf.

But if he HAD, he wouldn't be Cramulus.  He'd be someone else entirely.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 04, 2019, 07:19:22 pm
So is this too a toxic internet community that will ruin my mental health?

Sort of gilding the lily, though.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: The Johnny on December 04, 2019, 07:34:38 pm
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.

This, basically.

A lot of people arenít really aware of what is bad about ContraPoints, so I definitely am trying to give them information they can use to make that decision themselves.

I gotta go with Faust on this one, though.  I will still listen to David Bowie, for example, though if he were alive, I would never want to meet him.

What about David Bowie?
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 04, 2019, 07:36:45 pm
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.

This, basically.

A lot of people arenít really aware of what is bad about ContraPoints, so I definitely am trying to give them information they can use to make that decision themselves.

I gotta go with Faust on this one, though.  I will still listen to David Bowie, for example, though if he were alive, I would never want to meet him.

What about David Bowie?

During his coke years, he slept with a girl after a concert, who turned out to be 15, as I understand it.  I am told by a certain type of person that this means I cannot listen to his music anymore.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on December 04, 2019, 08:25:28 pm
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.

This, basically.

A lot of people arenít really aware of what is bad about ContraPoints, so I definitely am trying to give them information they can use to make that decision themselves.

I gotta go with Faust on this one, though.  I will still listen to David Bowie, for example, though if he were alive, I would never want to meet him.

What about David Bowie?

During his coke years, he slept with a girl after a concert, who turned out to be 15, as I understand it.  I am told by a certain type of person that this means I cannot listen to his music anymore.

The overt nazi period is also An Issue.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Cramulus on December 04, 2019, 08:26:27 pm
Sure, and thatís your thing, and thatís fine.

My point was more ďhere are reasons not toĒ. I donít expect to change anyoneís mind here, this isnít a place to evangelize, unless youíre using your ass to do it. I may have come across more forceful than that, but I think my reasons and my history explain why that would be the case. The intent was milder and Iím not going to call you all shitgoblins for not following my lead.

I might call Cramulus a shitgoblin anyway, but thatís for the Eastern Terror of 2019 more than for his opinions. I canít be expected to forget the entire truck of radioactive Ďstache catching fire or the subsequent mutant Buddhists climbing buildings and howling for the end of dukkha. Nor can I be expected to FORGIVE.

Forgiving Cramulus is just another way of saying "To Cramulus is okay."  It's permission.  The Cramulus will say that he has changed, that he has turned over a new leaf.

But if he HAD, he wouldn't be Cramulus.  He'd be someone else entirely.

100 years from now, a tractor-feed printer next to your brain-vat will print out

10 I was just obeying Cramulus' mind control
20 Goto 10


this will be a valid legal defense because the entire legal system will be based on my mind control



Title: Re: Incel
Post by: altered on December 04, 2019, 08:32:43 pm
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.

This, basically.

A lot of people arenít really aware of what is bad about ContraPoints, so I definitely am trying to give them information they can use to make that decision themselves.

I gotta go with Faust on this one, though.  I will still listen to David Bowie, for example, though if he were alive, I would never want to meet him.

What about David Bowie?

During his coke years, he slept with a girl after a concert, who turned out to be 15, as I understand it.  I am told by a certain type of person that this means I cannot listen to his music anymore.

The overt nazi period is also An Issue.

Thereís something I need to write someday about how the belief that there is no value in the output of a terrible person is incorrect and actively harmful.

For one thing, itís another way of pretending they arenít human, and thus that we couldnít have possibly turned out Just Like Them.

For another, itís another bullshit psychological bias like ďonly ugly people are badĒ and so forth.

Blindly forsaking the entire output of anyone who has ever been bad only leaves a person culturally impoverished and easier to manipulate.

Thatís not to say there is no value in leaving behind shit made by terrible people, but one must be aware of the reasons theyíre doing that.

Even saying ďmy innate psychological biases make it difficult for me to enjoy nowĒ is enough of a reason. Just be conscious of it, for fuckís sake.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: The Johnny on December 04, 2019, 08:44:45 pm

I just have friends that really like him, and i personally enjoy "The Man Who Sold the World" album... thanks for the input Dok, QGP.

And Null, practically nobody knows what they're doing and they're contradictory and incoherent, and from that perspective, bad people can do good things and good people can do bad things...

Maybe I could elaborate, but that's pretty much the fundamentals of it.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on December 04, 2019, 08:55:43 pm
There's a difference between "we should not give this person money" and "everything this person touched in any way is irredeemably tainted," too. That's where I tend to put my energy. I don't think we should sweep the bad things popular people have done under the rug, and I do think people should be held to account, but I'm not, for example, pulling Bowie off all my playlists.

Kevin Spacey I actually have more opinions on. We met once briefly on the House of Cards set, he was extremely busy between takes working remotely on the "I'm The Captain" movie, but he and the husband got on great. And later, well, we all found things out. The plot the husband and I worked on was centered on the low ranking shlubs who were trying and destined to fail at taking his character down. When you're doing that (or at least when my crazy ass does) you can't help but get invested. And they tell you from go "This show is about the Underwoods, they will always win," but it still breaks your heart a bit. You get kicked in the balls enough and eventually you just don't want to play anymore.

Then you find out the guy kicking you in the balls is an asshole IRL, too. And it starts to feel less like the game you signed up for. And then you have to confront the fact that your labor and investment and love have built up something that enriches an asshole, giving him more power and influence and straight up cash.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Doktor Howl on December 04, 2019, 09:15:26 pm
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.

This, basically.

A lot of people arenít really aware of what is bad about ContraPoints, so I definitely am trying to give them information they can use to make that decision themselves.

I gotta go with Faust on this one, though.  I will still listen to David Bowie, for example, though if he were alive, I would never want to meet him.

What about David Bowie?

During his coke years, he slept with a girl after a concert, who turned out to be 15, as I understand it.  I am told by a certain type of person that this means I cannot listen to his music anymore.

The overt nazi period is also An Issue.

Thereís something I need to write someday about how the belief that there is no value in the output of a terrible person is incorrect and actively harmful.

For one thing, itís another way of pretending they arenít human, and thus that we couldnít have possibly turned out Just Like Them.

For another, itís another bullshit psychological bias like ďonly ugly people are badĒ and so forth.

Blindly forsaking the entire output of anyone who has ever been bad only leaves a person culturally impoverished and easier to manipulate.

Thatís not to say there is no value in leaving behind shit made by terrible people, but one must be aware of the reasons theyíre doing that.

Even saying ďmy innate psychological biases make it difficult for me to enjoy nowĒ is enough of a reason. Just be conscious of it, for fuckís sake.

It ALSO means that you have to write of 99% of the world's art.  Because, strangely enough, damn near every major artist/author/musician was a complete shit in some manner.
Title: Re: Incel
Post by: Faust on December 04, 2019, 10:41:14 pm
There's a difference between "we should not give this person money" and "everything this person touched in any way is irredeemably tainted," too. That's where I tend to put my energy. I don't think we should sweep the bad things popular people have done under the rug, and I do think people should be held to account, but I'm not, for example, pulling Bowie off all my playlists.

Kevin Spacey I actually have more opinions on. We met once briefly on the House of Cards set, he was extremely busy between takes working remotely on the "I'm The Captain" movie, but he and the husband got on great. And later, well, we all found things out. The plot the husband and I worked on was centered on the low ranking shlubs who were trying and destined to fail at taking his character down. When you're doing that (or at least when my crazy ass does) you can't help but get invested. And they tell you from go "This show is about the Underwoods, they will always win," but it still breaks your heart a bit. You get kicked in the balls enough and eventually you just don't want to play anymore.

Then you find out the guy kicking you in the balls is an asshole IRL, too. And it starts to feel less like the game you signed up for. And then you have to confront the fact that your labor and investment and love have built up something that enriches an asshole, giving him more power and influence and straight up cash.

That's a really cool headtrip to be in, just watching the show you simultaneously want him to get his comeuppance and wanting to see how he gets out of the ever escalating gambit.
I can't even imagine what the emotional investment in playing those characters would be like, and then watching him get embroiled in real life scandal.
When people talk about separating the art from the artist it was one where I couldn't do that at all: That was the ending for me, conflated reality merging of the characters with the show giving a conclusion that married the themes of that entitlement, he got caught and that was the ending for me, no more tension in the show.