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You've gone too far, eh?

Started by Hoser McRhizzy, April 26, 2011, 10:16:39 PM

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Thurnez Isa

#60
April 28, 2011, 07:28:17 PM Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 07:31:18 PM by Thurnez Isa
Quote from: ch3mist on April 28, 2011, 06:54:36 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 28, 2011, 06:31:32 PM
Quote from: ch3mist on April 28, 2011, 06:22:34 PM

What I do have experience with that's relevant to the conversation is inorganic catalysis, a field which often produces radical changes in what is industrially feasible and what is not.

Yeah, that's the field I work in.

So, without industrial or refining experience, from what experience DO you draw these wonderful ideas about generating enough power to reliably run a refinery given a shortage of available fuel that is somehow also infinite in quantity?

You already said where you work, and it was noted.

You may be using the term in a more general sense, but I'm not talking about refining hydrocarbons. I'm talking about synthetic generation of them. The idea comes from the goal of creating catalysts that convert combustion byproducts (CO and CO2) to hydrocarbons at temperatures < 300 C and pressures < 100 atm, reaction conditions that I hope we can both agree could be produced from industrial waste heat. I know Yamasaki has stated the goal, but I'm not sure if he originally set it. He's working on Manganese nanotunnel catalysts that could serve this purpose and while the approach is unique he certainly isn't alone in his goal.

Given that the problem is one of efficiency rather than possibility, the notion that we'll run out of biologically derived hydrocarbons before being able to supplant them commercially with synthetic hydrocarbons seems little more than a fanciful disaster scenario on par with Y2K or 2012.

Without getting into the practicalities of this, to which my initial feelings are that of Roger, I have heard about this, but know next to nothing. Can you link up some research journals? I can get access to a good portion through the university.
Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.
Dante

Telarus

#61
April 28, 2011, 07:30:14 PM
 :drama1:
Telarus, KSC,
.__.  Keeper of the Contradictory Cephalopod, Zenarchist Swordsman,
(0o)  Tender to the Edible Zen Garden, Ratcheting Metallic Sex Doll of The End Times,
/||\   Episkopos of the Amorphous Dreams Cabal

Join the Doll Underground! Experience the Phantasmagorical Safari!

hooplala

#62
April 28, 2011, 07:39:18 PM
Perhaps it's time we get back to the important topic...




cellophane wrapped bananas!
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)" — Walt Whitman

Freeky

#63
April 28, 2011, 07:46:13 PM
dAMN YOU SPAGS AND YOUR HIGH FALOOTIN' SCIENCE TALK!!  OBAMA WAS SUPPOSED TO PUT A STOP TO THIS SHIT

ch3mist

#64
April 28, 2011, 07:46:56 PM
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on April 28, 2011, 07:28:17 PM
Without getting into the practicalities of this, to which my initial feelings are that of Roger, I have heard about this, but know next to nothing. Can you link up some research journals? I can get access to a good portion through the university.

NP. I have pdfs of most of these if you don't have access. I tried to grab a decently diverse number of approaches to the problem with these but stuck with ACS publications since they tend to be both well respected and commonly available.


The first couple are chapters from books presented at ACS symposium, that provides a decent general background:
CO2 Conversion and Utilization: An Overview
Chunshan Song
Chapter DOI: 10.1021/bk-2002-0809.ch001
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bk-2002-0809.ch001

Effective Conversion of CO2 to Valuable Compounds by Using Multifunctional Catalysts
Tomoyuki Inui
Chapter 9, pp 130–152
Chapter DOI: 10.1021/bk-2002-0809.ch009
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/bk-2002-0809.ch009

Formation of Hydrocarbons from the Reduction of Aqueous CO2 by Zero-Valent Iron
Leslie I. Hardy and Robert W. Gillham
Environ. Sci. Technol., 1995, 30 (1), pp 57–65
DOI: 10.1021/es950054m
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es950054m

Chemical Recycling of Carbon Dioxide to Methanol and Dimethyl Ether: From Greenhouse Gas to Renewable, Environmentally Carbon Neutral Fuels and Synthetic Hydrocarbons
George A. Olah, Alain Goeppert and G. K. Surya Prakash
J. Org. Chem., 2009, 74 (2), pp 487–498
DOI: 10.1021/jo801260f
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo801260f

Conversion of Greenhouse Gases to Synthesis Gas and Higher Hydrocarbons
Kui Zhang, Ulrich Kogelschatz, and Baldur Eliasson
Energy Fuels, 2001, 15 (2), pp 395–402
DOI: 10.1021/ef000161o
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ef000161o

Direct Conversion of Greenhouse Gases to Synthesis Gas and C4 Hydrocarbons over Zeolite HY Promoted by a Dielectric-Barrier Discharge
Kui Zhang, Baldur Eliasson, and Ulrich Kogelschatz
Ind. Eng. Chem. Res., 2002, 41 (6), pp 1462–1468
DOI: 10.1021/ie0105021
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie0105021

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The Good Reverend Roger

#65
April 28, 2011, 07:50:39 PM
He posted links?

This one might actually be a biped.  Maybe.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

hooplala

#66
April 28, 2011, 07:53:18 PM
People... really...


"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)" — Walt Whitman

The Good Reverend Roger

#67
April 28, 2011, 07:54:00 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on April 28, 2011, 07:53:18 PM
People... really...




QUIT JAMMING YOUR BANANA DOWN MY THROAT!

Um.

Wait.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

hooplala

#68
April 28, 2011, 07:54:50 PM
Ritzibottom Salazar's famous last words.

He truly was a poet.
"Soon all of us will have special names" — Professor Brian O'Blivion

"Now's not the time to get silly, so wear your big boots and jump on the garbage clowns." — Bob Dylan?

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)" — Walt Whitman

Freeky

#69
April 28, 2011, 07:56:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 28, 2011, 07:54:00 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on April 28, 2011, 07:53:18 PM
People... really...




QUIT JAMMING YOUR BANANA DOWN MY THROAT!

Um.

Wait.

I'LL TAKE IT IF HE DOESN'T WANT IT

Luna

#70
April 28, 2011, 08:01:10 PM
Death-dealing hormone freak of deliciousness
Pagan-Stomping Valkyrie of the Interbutts™
Rampaging Slayer of Shit-Fountain Habitues

"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know, everybody you see, everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake, and they live in a state of constant, total amazement."

Quote from: The Payne on November 16, 2011, 07:08:55 PM
If Luna was a furry, she'd sex humans and scream "BEASTIALITY!" at the top of her lungs at inopportune times.

Quote from: Nigel on March 24, 2011, 01:54:48 AM
I like the Luna one. She is a good one.

Quote
"Stop talking to yourself.  You don't like you any better than anyone else who knows you."

Hoser McRhizzy

#71
April 28, 2011, 08:16:47 PM
Quote from: PopeTom on April 27, 2011, 12:29:13 AM
Or possibly not far enough!

http://blogs.forbes.com/csr/2011/03/15/del-monte-responds-to-daily-show-criticism-of-individually-wrapped-banana/

:argh!:


Quote from: Jenkem and Tomahawks on April 27, 2011, 05:11:13 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 27, 2011, 12:53:12 AM
Quote from: Jenne on April 27, 2011, 12:51:56 AM
Yeah, I wasn't saying I thought it was necessary--I've seen apples and oranges displayed in vending machines, and they didn't have wrappers.  This was the company's excuse--to make individual servings of the highly spoilable fruit accessible "in ways that they haven't been before" ...or something to that effect.

Because I REALLY couldn't fucking figure it out, before.  Defied logic.  Now, there's SOME logic to that, but well, not REALLY.

Oh, I get where you're coming from.

But America is still retodded.

Retaaahded.  Fo' sho. :lulz:

That is no excuse!  You see this guy right here????



THAT'S MY PRIME MINISTER!

retrod is not a valid defense.  We make em in bulk!  Our Walmart shoppers aspire to be as rolly as yours, our corporations are as sneaky and no one can explain the voting system.  One of our national symbols is a cop, another is a leaf, and we decided these things because we had to celebrate Canadianness with the Queen during a party back in the 60s!  It doesn't get more retarded than Canada.

But we have not yet put individual bananas into special "green" biodegradable plastic baggies to fight obesity.

And that is why you must stop Del Monte or endure the WHOLESOMIZING Canadianization of your Americana!

Don't you see?  It's the only way...
It feels unreal because it's trickling up.

Thurnez Isa

#72
April 28, 2011, 08:18:45 PM
quick question chem and Im willing to be wrong on this...

isn't the energy density of Methanol only around 22 mj/kg, which would mean very higher energy costs needed to synthesize? Not to mention our existing petroleum structure could not be used due to Methanol being corrosive. This would force huge costs in new infrastructure, or worse transportation.
Not to mention Oil is relatively slow in contaminating ground water compared to liquid Methanol, and though Methanol dilutes easier and burns easier and biodegerates it all requires a much quicker response to ground water safety then is in place.

My initial feelings are it could be feasible (I haven't read the articles yet, but will within the next few weeks, I'm only going off of textbook knowledge) on a small local scale, but as energy requirements go up I can't see how with such a low energy density Methanol could be anything more then support to a  petroleum based economy. At least in the near future.


also hoser sorry about the hijack...
Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.
Dante

The Good Reverend Roger

#73
April 28, 2011, 08:19:10 PM
Quote from: Hoser McRhizzy on April 28, 2011, 08:16:47 PM


THAT'S MY PRIME MINISTER!


LOL, Canada, doing Bush 2 years too late.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Thurnez Isa

#74
April 28, 2011, 08:20:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 28, 2011, 08:19:10 PM
Quote from: Hoser McRhizzy on April 28, 2011, 08:16:47 PM


THAT'S MY PRIME MINISTER!


LOL, Canada, doing Bush 2 years too late.

and badly might I add.
Through me the way to the city of woe, Through me the way to everlasting pain, Through me the way among the lost.
Justice moved my maker on high.
Divine power made me, Wisdom supreme, and Primal love.
Before me nothing was but things eternal, and eternal I endure.
Abandon all hope, you who enter here.
Dante
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