Well, this is going to affect my belief system...

[P3nT4gR4m]

Apart from precognition I've had some extreme "psychic" experiences including OOB, remote viewing, seeing ghosts and visionary stuff, whilst under the influence of psillocybin. I credit that compound as playing a very large role in a quantum leap of self awareness I made in my late teens. The fact that I was tripping off my tits on shrooms in no way invalidates the insights I had into the nature of mind and perception but I firmly believe that some (if not all) of those effects could have been stimulated (probably even spontaneously) without the aid of a fungal agent (temporal lobe seizure for instance). If that had been the case and I didn't have the mushies to "blame" fuck knows what I would have thought. As it was I immediately began investigating "spooky" options, although I quite quickly discounted most of these.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The details didn't seem to leave room for possibility two, but that's in retrospect, and life leaves a lot of room for illusion.

[Triple Zero]

no offense taken.  
that's why i brought it up here.  it's a community with healthy skepticism that isn't afraid to call bullshit.

i can't say that i've made up my mind about what happened, but i find it hard to maintain doubt that something happened beyond bullshit.

i don't mean to give the impression that i'm recalcitrant on any points though...

Yeah, I'm with Nigel. Reason being that I find it really hard to carry on conversations along these lines without becoming sarcastic or insulting. I've never heard of any psychic phenomenon that doesn't have at least a dozen really straightforward alternative explanations and, having never seen any evidence myself I find it impossible to buy into any such tale. Let's agree to disagree and at least that way we wont fall out.

I think the point of this thread is that he wants you to convince him of that [no offense, Ippy].

It's obvious Iptuous doesn't really want to believe the supernatural explanation. And given the info he got from his wife [trusting her] he has trouble reconciling it with his own rational belief system. I think he'd like to hear an explanation that could rationally explain this story, and preferably an explanation that wouldn't somehow dismiss his wife.

Taking the story strictly at face value, both the supernatural explanation and the cold-reading explanation are possible.

If one believes these kinds of supernatural things are possible, just possible, the cold-reading explanation becomes kind of far-fetched and occam's razor suggests the supernatural option.

On the other hand, one could simply rule out the supernatural explanation, because, say, science has never been able to test these clairvoyant events in any sort of controlled manner. 

The latter the position I'd prefer to take. And in that case, I'd say it's (probably unintentional) cold-reading, the fact that this was a very powerful experience for his wife, and (also very important) the fact that he got it from second hand and perhaps she left out some details she didn't get right (she probably didn't even register them, while this was going on). She probably really wanted to help this fellow, and getting this first positive signal possibly got her into a feedback loop, but I don't know, it's just guesswork.

But that's my preference. From just the story itself, I can't say, "oh that's how she did it".

I really hate these kinds of stories, though, cause they never seem to happen when I'm around. Even though I've sort of been looking for it for quite a while.

[Elder Iptuous]

thanks, Trip. 

[Telarus]

I find this thread super interesting, and while I won't comment on the 'authenticity' of the event (I leave the possibility open), I do want to add this to the discussion:

Researchers find neural signature of 'mental time travel'
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-07-neural-signature-mental.html

Almost everyone has experienced one memory triggering another, but explanations for that phenomenon have proved elusive. Now, University of Pennsylvania researchers have provided the first neurobiological evidence that memories formed in the same context become linked, the foundation of the theory of episodic memory.

The research was conducted by professor Michael Kahana of the Department of Psychology in the School of Arts and Sciences and graduate student Jeremy R. Manning, of the Neuroscience Graduate Group in Penn's Perelman School of Medicine. They collaborated with Gordon Baltuch and Brian Litt of the departments of Neurology and Psychology at the medical school and Sean M. Polyn of Vanderbilt University.

Their research was published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

"Theories of episodic memory suggest that when I remember an event, I retrieve its earlier context and make it part of my present context," Kahana said.  "When I remember my grandmother, for example, I pull back all sorts of associations of a different time and place in my life; I'm also remembering living in Detroit and her Hungarian cooking. It's like mental time travel. I jump back in time to the past, but I'm still grounded in the present."

To investigate the neurobiological evidence for this theory, the Penn team combined a centuries-old psychological research technique — having subjects memorize and recall a list of unrelated words — with precise brain activity data that can only be acquired via neurosurgery.

The study's participants were all epilepsy patients who had between 50 and 150 electrodes implanted throughout their brains. This was in an effort to pinpoint the region of the brain where their seizures originated. Because doctors had to wait for seizures to naturally occur in order to study them, the patients lived with the implanted electrodes for a period of weeks.

"We can do direct brain recordings in monkeys or rats, but with humans one can only obtain these recordings when neurosurgical patients, who require implanted electrodes for seizure mapping, volunteer to participate in memory experiments," Kahana said. "With these recordings, we can relate what happens in the memory experiment on a millisecond-by-millisecond basis to what's changing in the brain."

The memory experiment consisted of patients memorizing lists of 15 unrelated words. After seeing a list of the words in sequence, the subjects were distracted by doing simple arithmetic problems. They were then asked to recall as many words as they could in any order. Their implanted electrodes measured their brain activity at each step, and each subject read and recalled dozens of lists to ensure reliable data.

"By examining the patterns of brain activity recorded from the implanted electrodes," Manning said, "we can measure when the brain's activity is similar to a previously recorded pattern. When a patient recalls a word, their brain activity is similar to when they studied the same word.   In addition, the patterns at recall contained traces of other words that were studied prior to the recalled word."

"What seems to be happening is that when patients recall a word, they bring back not only the thoughts associated with the word itself but also remnants of thoughts associated with other words they studied nearby in time," he said.

The findings provide a brain-based explanation of a memory phenomenon that people experience every day.

"This is why two friends you met at different points in your life can become linked in your memory," Kahana said. "Along your autobiographical timeline, contextual associations will exist at every time scale, from experiences that take place over the course of years to experiences that take place over the course of minutes, like studying words on a list."

If your wife's experience had been verbally mediated (by that, I mean she 'talked him through it' in order to prompt him for the visual imagery she saw), I would call her experience a very good NLP session. If she can intuit visual imagery that another person is having (the above context-carrying memory functions) from body-language cues and cold-reading... that's pretty neat.

[Suu]

All I can suggest to you is, despite what anyone will tell you, or what you want to believe, the most important thing you can do is support your wife.

[BabylonHoruv]

no offense taken.  
that's why i brought it up here.  it's a community with healthy skepticism that isn't afraid to call bullshit.

i can't say that i've made up my mind about what happened, but i find it hard to maintain doubt that something happened beyond bullshit.

i don't mean to give the impression that i'm recalcitrant on any points though...

Yeah, I'm with Nigel. Reason being that I find it really hard to carry on conversations along these lines without becoming sarcastic or insulting. I've never heard of any psychic phenomenon that doesn't have at least a dozen really straightforward alternative explanations and, having never seen any evidence myself I find it impossible to buy into any such tale. Let's agree to disagree and at least that way we wont fall out.

I think the point of this thread is that he wants you to convince him of that [no offense, Ippy].

It's obvious Iptuous doesn't really want to believe the supernatural explanation. And given the info he got from his wife [trusting her] he has trouble reconciling it with his own rational belief system. I think he'd like to hear an explanation that could rationally explain this story, and preferably an explanation that wouldn't somehow dismiss his wife.

Taking the story strictly at face value, both the supernatural explanation and the cold-reading explanation are possible.

If one believes these kinds of supernatural things are possible, just possible, the cold-reading explanation becomes kind of far-fetched and occam's razor suggests the supernatural option.

On the other hand, one could simply rule out the supernatural explanation, because, say, science has never been able to test these clairvoyant events in any sort of controlled manner. 

The latter the position I'd prefer to take. And in that case, I'd say it's (probably unintentional) cold-reading, the fact that this was a very powerful experience for his wife, and (also very important) the fact that he got it from second hand and perhaps she left out some details she didn't get right (she probably didn't even register them, while this was going on). She probably really wanted to help this fellow, and getting this first positive signal possibly got her into a feedback loop, but I don't know, it's just guesswork.

But that's my preference. From just the story itself, I can't say, "oh that's how she did it".

I really hate these kinds of stories, though, cause they never seem to happen when I'm around. Even though I've sort of been looking for it for quite a while.

This is definitely the approach I'd suggest if you want to keep your worldview intact.

[Elder Iptuous]

All I can suggest to you is, despite what anyone will tell you, or what you want to believe, the most important thing you can do is support your wife.

Agreed.  she has been struggling with the notion of our mortality for a good while, having no beliefs to assuage her. and with the recent loss of loved ones, she's been broken to an extent.  this experience seems to have, if not healed her to some degree, at least stopped the bleeding.  so, even if it was entirely a fiction, it was a useful one.

Babylon, i have no particular attachment to my current worldview, other than it seems to make some sense to me.  it's a pretty scant framework anyways...
further, if this were to be taken as evidence that some aspect of personal agency lingers beyond our physical form, it would only modify my beliefs from 'we exist beyond death through the results of our actions and our children' to add 'some aspect of us seems to exists beyond death in a way that can influence the world'.  a change to be sure, but not one that would pull the rug out from under me.
also, there are several possibilities other than that, beyond a 'simple' unintentional cold reading.

I asked her about the other people present, and she said that most left when he became scared and started crying, as it became uncomfortable.  the only one who was part of the conversation from that point was Indian Bob, and he was in and out due to a conflict with his significant other.  I'd like to get his take on it, but he will probably be cynical, as he thinks the guy is a sadsac creating his own hell.  He's tried to help the guy for a couple years and has become frustrated with him.  We'll see.  perhaps it will be illuminating regarding the guys sincerity seeing whether there is any change in his behaviour from this point.  (if he was sincere, i can't imagine he would continue seeing the hooker, after his dead grandmother told him she's watching... )

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't disbelieve in spirits or psychic phenomena, but I do choose the skeptical approach for the sake of sanity. Alcohol can trigger temporal lobe seizures. Has your wife ever had a concussion? There is a strong link between temporal lobe epilepsy and concussion, especially in childhood.

[Elder Iptuous]

I try to take the same tack, Nigel.
I would assume we've all had concussions of some degree, but i don't know of her having had a serious one at any point.
it would have to have been early in life, because one of her more significant episodes occurred when she was, like, five.

She was staying the night, along with her older brother, at her biological father's house (who, iirc, was either passed out or not present) and they were sleeping in the living room.  she had a dream where an older man with his head bashed in came stumbling through the door, and started screaming bloody murder.  her brother, woken by the tumult, woke her up and tried to pacify her, but she was unable to say anything, and was pointing at the front door. he opened the door, and the guy was there, head bashed in (grey matter visible), and a wire coat hanger wrapped around his wrists.  he stumbles in with the help of her brother just as she dreamed and pushed his way into the bathroom. (he was embarrassed because he had crapped himself, go figure)

turns out the guy was robbed and tortured.  i think she said he lived, though.

her brother, who was older at the time (i believe he was nine) agrees to the sequence of events.
-they were sleeping
-she screams in her sleep
-he wakes up
-he wakes her up
-she points to the door
-he investigates, and the event that she just dreamed occurred.

[Phox]

I try to take the same tack, Nigel.
I would assume we've all had concussions of some degree, but i don't know of her having had a serious one at any point.
it would have to have been early in life, because one of her more significant episodes occurred when she was, like, five.

She was staying the night, along with her older brother, at her biological father's house (who, iirc, was either passed out or not present) and they were sleeping in the living room.  she had a dream where an older man with his head bashed in came stumbling through the door, and started screaming bloody murder.  her brother, woken by the tumult, woke her up and tried to pacify her, but she was unable to say anything, and was pointing at the front door. he opened the door, and the guy was there, head bashed in (grey matter visible), and a wire coat hanger wrapped around his wrists.  he stumbles in with the help of her brother just as she dreamed and pushed his way into the bathroom. (he was embarrassed because he had crapped himself, go figure)

turns out the guy was robbed and tortured.  i think she said he lived, though.

her brother, who was older at the time (i believe he was nine) agrees to the sequence of events.
-they were sleeping
-she screams in her sleep
-he wakes up
-he wakes her up
-she points to the door
-he investigates, and the event that she just dreamed occurred.

Well, there's a funny thing about memory. It tends to mix up the details, especially in high stress situations. And for the record, it's relatively easy to convince someone that events happened in a way slightly different than they remember.

Then there's the problem with dreams, but I don't think it's necessary to go into that.

Suffice it to say, if my bestest best mate told me this story, I'd say "What actually happened is she had a nightmare, screamed, woke her brother. Brother woke her up, she heard a sound outside the door, and still half asleep mixed dream and reality, and pointed to the door. Brother did not hear sound but went to investigate as she pointed out. The rest happens as told. The whole ordeal shocks her fully awake and pushes most of the nightmare out of her mind, and her memory fills in the details of the dream with the half-awake perception of the events that just occurred. "

Small child + vivid nightmare + vivid nightmare-like experience = unreliable details.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Or, she got up and answered the door while still in a semi-sleeping state, then screamed and ran back to bed. And, again, sleepwalking or partial-sleep is related to temporal lobe epilepsy.

I hate to keep bringing it back to that, but it's a thing I know about that happens to match some of the circumstances rather well.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Or, it is also readily explained by just being a sleepy, irrational 5-year-old who just opened the door and saw something utterly terrifying.

[Elder Iptuous]

That's what i've always operated under the assumption with. 
that's the reason eye witness testimony should be held with much more suspicion than it is...
of course, it is my understanding that the man also said that her brother is the one that opened the door, so it would have to be the case of her convincing her brother of the sequence of events. (which is entirely possible, from the way she's told it, i guess)

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The man's brains were dashed in. What are the odds that he remembers everything accurately?

Her brother would have been woken up by her screaming if she ran back into the bedroom, so that's where his recollection would begin.

Like I said, I don't disbelieve in psychic phenomena, it's just that one is way too easy to pick apart and find a mundane and wholly rational explanation for.

Also, five-year-olds. I mean, just. They are not entirely lucid.