an argument for a deflationary policy in the You Ess of Heeeeey

[Doktor Howl]

I think Pickle could work his way past the whole rags-to-riches for everyone thing, see where his thinking is flawed.  I really think he can do it.  Obviously, it'll take time and help, but still, he's smart enough.

Smart has nothing to do with it.  It's a primate thing, it's not connected to cognitive thinking at all.  He's found his religion, and odds are overwhelmingly in favor of him sticking to it no matter what.

[Disco Pickle]

Being born smarter than some of the other monkeys is luck, too. I know it's not popular when I say this, but if you consider that most people are "average" and then examine what that means, well, after the vomiting and shaking stops you had damn well better thank your FUCKING LUCKY-ASS stars that you're a little bit smarter. Because I can guarantee you that every monkey on this board is smarter than average, probably by a fair bit, and that means that our ability to find patterns, make associations, plan for contingencies, solve problems in creative ways, and to learn in general is, through no real doing of our own, significantly better than the average monkey.

It might sound like elitism, but the bottom line for me is that when I realized that, rather than looking down on the poor fucks who didn't win the brain lottery, I feel holy shit lucky as hell. Because if I'm struggling, they would be doomed, and I've seen people go down in flames - losing their home, job, losing custody of their kids - simply from making decisions I could clearly see from the outset were strategically very very flawed.

Yeah, no, I totally agree smartness is luck.  And I feel lucky, but I see Pickle saying that his success is all down to him working hard, and that is what is most offensive to me, really, is that he doesn't get it at all.

I agree with you completely.

He thinks that if he did it, anyone can. He no doubt sees himself as starting "with nothing", but isn't acknowledging that he actually had some pretty major advantages. Starting with brains, which are not distributed equally. Basic nutrition and early childhood nurturing have an affect on intelligence, so he probably wasn't starved or neglected as an infant or toddler. He's male and white, which are fairly significant advantages.

In short, he's not accurately representative of "anyone". Or even of "any American".

I'm also dashingly handsome, charming, and modest to boot.  That helps.  

But yeah, I get what you're saying.  I'm ignoring the advantages of the genetic lottery.  

[Freeky]

I think Pickle could work his way past the whole rags-to-riches for everyone thing, see where his thinking is flawed.  I really think he can do it.  Obviously, it'll take time and help, but still, he's smart enough.

Smart has nothing to do with it.  It's a primate thing, it's not connected to cognitive thinking at all.  He's found his religion, and odds are overwhelmingly in favor of him sticking to it no matter what.

But he is here, and this board if nothing else is good at tearing sweet and merciful illusions away.

[Disco Pickle]

I think Pickle could work his way past the whole rags-to-riches for everyone thing, see where his thinking is flawed.  I really think he can do it.  Obviously, it'll take time and help, but still, he's smart enough.

Smart has nothing to do with it.  It's a primate thing, it's not connected to cognitive thinking at all.  He's found his religion, and odds are overwhelmingly in favor of him sticking to it no matter what.

But he is here, and this board if nothing else is good at tearing sweet and merciful illusions away.

It is at that.

[Freeky]

I'm also dashingly handsome, charming, and modest to boot.  That helps.  

But yeah, I get what you're saying.  I'm ignoring the advantages of the genetic lottery.  

That may be what she's saying, but not what all of us are saying.  You didn't just win the genetic lottery, you won the cosmic one too.  

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Being born smarter than some of the other monkeys is luck, too. I know it's not popular when I say this, but if you consider that most people are "average" and then examine what that means, well, after the vomiting and shaking stops you had damn well better thank your FUCKING LUCKY-ASS stars that you're a little bit smarter. Because I can guarantee you that every monkey on this board is smarter than average, probably by a fair bit, and that means that our ability to find patterns, make associations, plan for contingencies, solve problems in creative ways, and to learn in general is, through no real doing of our own, significantly better than the average monkey.

It might sound like elitism, but the bottom line for me is that when I realized that, rather than looking down on the poor fucks who didn't win the brain lottery, I feel holy shit lucky as hell. Because if I'm struggling, they would be doomed, and I've seen people go down in flames - losing their home, job, losing custody of their kids - simply from making decisions I could clearly see from the outset were strategically very very flawed.

Yeah, no, I totally agree smartness is luck.  And I feel lucky, but I see Pickle saying that his success is all down to him working hard, and that is what is most offensive to me, really, is that he doesn't get it at all.

I agree with you completely.

He thinks that if he did it, anyone can. He no doubt sees himself as starting "with nothing", but isn't acknowledging that he actually had some pretty major advantages. Starting with brains, which are not distributed equally. Basic nutrition and early childhood nurturing have an affect on intelligence, so he probably wasn't starved or neglected as an infant or toddler. He's male and white, which are fairly significant advantages.

In short, he's not accurately representative of "anyone". Or even of "any American".

I'm also dashingly handsome, charming, and modest to boot.  That helps.  

But yeah, I get what you're saying.  I'm ignoring the advantages of the genetic lottery.  

That, and more. Unless you honestly think that regardless of nature or nurture, you are exactly representative of all kids in America, I am saying that you are ignoring myriad advantages which supported your success in changing your situation. Literacy, innate intelligence, a lack of brain damage caused by abuse or neglect... right down to your mother not drinking heavily while she was pregnant with you.

Mind you, I can't stand my mother and it's her fault I was in a shitty situation to begin with. However, I have to recognize that she's also responsible for giving me most of the tools I've used to improve my life. She was a drunk, but she didn't drink while she was pregnant. She's got a shitty personality, but she questions authority. She fed me decent food for the first few years of my life, and she read all the time. Had she been an even worse mother (and there are a lot of even worse mothers out there) I wouldn't have had those tools. That's luck.

[kingyak]

On the subject of luck, has anyone read Malcolm Gladwell? This weekend, a friend was telling me about one of Gladwell's books he'd recently read (I think The Tipping Point, but possibly Outliers) that included several chapters about instances of luck that nobody recognized as luck.

The one I remember details of is about Canadian hockey. Most of the best players are born early in the year (January-March). As it turns out, this because the cut-off date for starting school is in early January. Kids born after that date don't start until the following year. These kids can be up to a year older than their classmates, and that extra growth and development makes them appear more athletic, especially when they're young. As a result, they're groomed and encouraged to practice, which makes them improve even farther beyond other kids of the same age.

There was one about how Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and most of the other innovators in computer technology were born in a very narrow timeframe, but I don't remember the specifics. The gist was that they had to be old enough to have the access and background to screw around with computers, but young enough that they didn't have families to support and could invest the time and money needed to develop their ideas.

Anyway, I think I need to add Gladwell to my reading list, and it seemed kind of pertinent (if only tangentially) to the thread.

[Precious Moments Zalgo]

I think Pickle could work his way past the whole rags-to-riches for everyone thing, see where his thinking is flawed.  I really think he can do it.  Obviously, it'll take time and help, but still, he's smart enough.

Smart has nothing to do with it.  It's a primate thing, it's not connected to cognitive thinking at all.  He's found his religion, and odds are overwhelmingly in favor of him sticking to it no matter what.

I'm not so sure about that.  I once shared that belief -- I once completely bought into the Horatio Alger myth -- but I overcame it, and if I can do that, then anyone can.

[kingyak]

And it would appear that I just killed Steve Jobs.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think Pickle could work his way past the whole rags-to-riches for everyone thing, see where his thinking is flawed.  I really think he can do it.  Obviously, it'll take time and help, but still, he's smart enough.

Smart has nothing to do with it.  It's a primate thing, it's not connected to cognitive thinking at all.  He's found his religion, and odds are overwhelmingly in favor of him sticking to it no matter what.

I'm not so sure about that.  I once shared that belief -- I once completely bought into the Horatio Alger myth -- but I overcame it, and if I can do that, then anyone can.

Masterful.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

On the subject of luck, has anyone read Malcolm Gladwell? This weekend, a friend was telling me about one of Gladwell's books he'd recently read (I think The Tipping Point, but possibly Outliers) that included several chapters about instances of luck that nobody recognized as luck.

The one I remember details of is about Canadian hockey. Most of the best players are born early in the year (January-March). As it turns out, this because the cut-off date for starting school is in early January. Kids born after that date don't start until the following year. These kids can be up to a year older than their classmates, and that extra growth and development makes them appear more athletic, especially when they're young. As a result, they're groomed and encouraged to practice, which makes them improve even farther beyond other kids of the same age.

There was one about how Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and most of the other innovators in computer technology were born in a very narrow timeframe, but I don't remember the specifics. The gist was that they had to be old enough to have the access and background to screw around with computers, but young enough that they didn't have families to support and could invest the time and money needed to develop their ideas.

Anyway, I think I need to add Gladwell to my reading list, and it seemed kind of pertinent (if only tangentially) to the thread.

That sounds like a really, really interesting book.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

And it would appear that I just killed Steve Jobs.

You're cancer? 

[Phox]

And it would appear that I just killed Steve Jobs.

You're cancer? 

He IS from Kentucky.... 

[Precious Moments Zalgo]

I haven't read Gladwell, but those anecdotes make sense.  I know that kids today can't do what I did in the early 90's because university tuition and a dorm room can no longer be afforded on a dishwasher's salary.

[Cain]

Gladwell is a purveyor of trendy, pointdexter pop-sociology in easy to understand terms for New York Times readers.

Which is not to say he is wrong in the particular context of the thread, only that he's an annoying, overgeneralizing and massively overrated writer.