Israel : security/intel coup on the question of Iran?

[Verbal Mike]

I might be missing something here, but my impression is that Minister of Defense Barak is basically working together with Bibi this whole time on the Iran thing. Voices in the military itself have been much more cautious than those two assclowns'.

[Kai]

I might be missing something here, but my impression is that Minister of Defense Barak is basically working together with Bibi this whole time on the Iran thing. Voices in the military itself have been much more cautious than those two assclowns'.

Oh, so not the ministry, then, just the military. Do you expect Barak and Bibi to come down hard on the military for that?

[The Wizard Joseph]

Hmm. Any more questions?

Possibly many.  It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance VERBL. 

What do you think accounts for the dramatic schism in perceived Left/Right politics among American Jews? How did it get that way do you think?

In Israel is there any push for a more representative government? 

Also, are Palestinians considered Israeli citizens legally? I never was too clear on that.

[The Wizard Joseph]

So it would seem to you that the whole reference may be about their own MASSIVE egos and a messianic complex of sorts then? Interesting. 

I asked because I've had a lot of firsthand experience within the American Christian right and several close, personal American Jewish contacts (sadly, no Isreali nationals as yet) that would seem extremely left politically here, but are hardline Israeli nationalists.  There is a bit of religious crazy that runs through both groups.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like at the very least 50% of the whole Middle Eastern clusterfuck is religious crazy.  1

It's all about getting the temple rebuilt in Jerusalem.  It's almost never talked about in open politics. 

Christianity is essentially waiting for the temple to be rebuilt so their whole prophetic end-times scenario can get rolling and Jesus will come back.
AFAICT many Israelis are more than willing to accept fundie money from Chrisitan groups because they want the temple too, but for reasons that seem far more political and cultural to me.

This has always puzzled me because american Jews IME are horribly offended by evangelicals and the whole "Jesus is coming back and the world is gonna end and all the Jews will be converted" thing, they try to maintain a sense of shared identity with the rest of the diaspora and Israel can usually do no wrong as far as they'e concerned. Taking money from Christian groups would imply some obligation to said Christian groups, so is it a case of the ends justifying the means? 2

1 Unfortunately, putting a reasonable estimate on the numbers of "religious crazy" is impossible.  My personal opinion is that it's a REALLY considerable number though. I can definitely attest to the strong grip that the idea has on the folks I've met.

2 I do suspect that it's a cool pragmatism on the part of the Jewish folks involved and an overheated sense of duty from the evangelicals.  Both sides also have tended toward an unhealthy, almost disdainful outlook on the other.
*****
Fundie: "All right, Israel is a nation again! This fulfills prophecy, and the end is near.  What else has to happen Pastor?"

Pastor: "Well according to the writings of this dead guy in chapter such and such the temple has to be rebuilt so the antichrist can declare his godhood in the middle of the tribulation (Don't worry we'll all be raptured-up by then for certain) and set the stage for the trumpet judgements and Armageddon.  The best part is that 144,000 Jewish apostates will gain their salvation! 

Fundie: "Oh glory, glory to the Highest! Pastor I'd give up every last cent of my low, worldly wealth to see that wonderful day. Please tell me what I can do!

Pastor: "Really.. er I mean Hallelujah brother!  I'll just make some phone calls and get a guest speaker as soon as I can."

*****

Pastor: "Right so this first one makes us even and right Rabbi?"

Rabbi: "Sure thing!  Say, do you think we could work this into a continuing education sort of thing?  Seems like there's a lot to be gained by both of our people here...

Pastor: "Sure! We could even set up to make a video series... 50/50 split on the copyrights?"

Rabbi: "Woah, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I'll have legal send over a contract draft and synopsis for you."




I don't think it's ALL about the money and pragmatism. It's also about the crazy, but how many crazies and how far gone they are is hard to tell.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

 

I don't know. I stopped trying to estimate the crazy somewhere between Hagee and JFJ.

[The Wizard Joseph]

I don't know. I stopped trying to estimate the crazy somewhere between Hagee and JFJ.

Glad you liked it! Who is JFJ? I'll google Hagee.

[Verbal Mike]

Oh, so not the ministry, then, just the military. Do you expect Barak and Bibi to come down hard on the military for that?

In my lay assessment, highly unlikely. The military has a higher status in Israeli society than any other institution in the world. This is reflected in Yair Lapid, a popular journalist/entertainer on his way into (centrist) politics, who has otherwise voiced criticism of many things, announcing a few months ago on his Facebook page that "when he's in government", he'll accept whatever the military recommends or observes, since the military knows best. (One may hope he crashes and burns before elections; when they were looking to come soon, he was expected to get some 15% of the vote, just on the force of his character, since he doesn't have a clear program so far.)

What do you think accounts for the dramatic schism in perceived Left/Right politics among American Jews? How did it get that way do you think?

I'm not really sure. You should look up Peter Beinart's columns and book, if you want a more comprehensive view. But my hunch is that American Jews were true lefties in the middle of the 20th century, when Israel was founded. The founding of Israel was seen as a true humanitarian/progressive cause, which it was, if you ignore the forceful displacement of the indigenous population, which the founding generals were never very vocal about for obvious reasons. So anyway, with time, defending Israel's right to exist became entrenched as a humanitarian cause, and since it's so far away, most did not make any connection between the reality in Israel and the ideals those American Jews held in their day-to-day politics. A very revealing fact, I think, is that many American Jews make sure to visit Israel, even often, but there are still about twice as many Jews in America as in Israel. Israel claims to represent the Jews of the world while only a minority - less than a third - choose to make that place their home. But I digress, and should be quick about this and get to work.

In Israel is there any push for a more representative government? 

How do you mean more representative? The system is pretty good, actually, as far as representative democracies go. The problem is much more in the political culture.

Also, are Palestinians considered Israeli citizens legally? I never was too clear on that.

There are different groups.
There are the Palestinians who were still within Israel when the Nakba (Arabic for "catastrophe"; aka Israel's War of Independence) ended, who were given Israeli citizenship. They were then subjected to almost 20 years of military law, i.e. no civil rights. Since the mid-1960's they have all the rights that I do, on paper, except that in practice they really don't, and there are probably a few laws that discriminate against them as well really. (Because the Knesset usually wants to look like it's not that racist, there's the trick of making laws about "those who have a right to citizenship according to the Law of Return", which is an indirect way of saying "Jews". In some cases, non-citizen Jews have rights that citizen non-Jews don't.)

Then there are the Palestinians who lived in East Jerusalem, which is actually a small part of the city and a huge area to the north, east, and south, which was unilaterally annexed after the Six-Day War in 1967. They have a permanent residency with an option to become citizens. If they don't become citizens they enjoy, in theory, all the rights of citizens except for voting and being elected on the national level. In practice they don't even receive basic municipal services and are generally not given permits to build anything. They mostly don't become citizens because they don't want to be part of Israel at all, or something like that.

Even though some 20% of Israel's citizens are Arabs, they don't really have any way of affecting the politics, because there's an unspoken agreement amongst Jewish parties never to allow an Arab party into the coalition. There's only one join Jewish-Arab party, but they're communists, support the Assad regime, and are pretty marginal.

Then there are the millions of occupied Palestinians, and refugees outside of Israel, all of whom have no citizenship anywhere. The Israeli Right likes to blame the Arab countries around Israel for consistently refusing to naturalize the refugees, and they have a point, but so do the Arab states in saying the Palestinians shouldn't be their problem since they didn't try to conquer anything.


As for the fundie connection, I think you're forgetting the role that power plays in these things... The fundies in America want the Presidency and their allies in Israel want the Premiership, so that they can rule like the Left did until 1977 (when the Right first came to power, i.e. when elections changed something in Israel for the first time), meaning in the favor of their backers and at the expense of everyone else. There are some crazy ideologies involved in justifying certain plans and ideas, for sure, but ultimately power and money seem to me like much bigger factors.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I don't know. I stopped trying to estimate the crazy somewhere between Hagee and JFJ.

Glad you liked it! Who is JFJ? I'll google Hagee.

"Jews" For Jesus.

[The Wizard Joseph]

Thank you for your replies VERBL.  I'll do some homework and give thoughtful responses as soon as I can.  Will be away from my computer due to travel through the weekend.  You are right though, I forgot the power part. If knowledge is power education is warfare eh?


AMB, I recognized Hagee's face right away.  I've heard of JFJ as an organization, but never really studied them closely. I sure will now!