Why has Feminism become a Dirty Word? and Other Misogyny on the Internet.

[Don Coyote]

Also: I got into it with one of Garbo's FB people RE: the giant fucking parasite that is the Women's Image Industry.
I was flabbergasted that any woman would feel that men are held to the same standard of appearances that women are because "Men are expected to be in-shape in out society" or similar garbage.

How? How could a woman think that? You go to any newsstand in the US, or most places I imagine, the amount of magazine covers with picture perfect bodies and hair featuring women is staggering compared to...well, say, car magazines? They're about even there. Those with men with 200 million abs and pecs that reach the sun exist, of course, but the simple numbers are, well, beyond debate, really.

Not to mention men are expected to be fit and muscular. Women are expected to be skinny. This expectation seems to come from other women. The expectation from men, generally, seems to be a certain kind of proportion with Sumptuous Hourglass at the top of the list. Either way, they do not allow for the myriad of bodytypes hardwired into your average human.

What I want to know is why in the hell would a woman, in the 21st Century, who is NOT a Fundamentalist not realize this? Why would you want to assume that this is an equal expectation between genders.

I remember that, that chick was special.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

(snagged from Facebook)

SPOT ON.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think you need to be more critical in your analysis. There are a number of professions which are heavily female-dominated, largely for reasons pertaining to gender-role differentiation. It might not surprise you to find that most nannies are female. However, that has mostly to do with the fact that for many years, these were the only professions that were open to women, and in fact, males wishing to enter these professions faced a stigma (also highly unfair, and a fantastic example of how restricting women's endeavors also oppresses men). Even so, sadly, on average males earn more in these female-dominated jobs than females do, when averaged for experience and skill.

I agree with everything you said, including that the historical reason for this is the oppression of women - Garbo just asked for an example of a situation where men faced a stigma that women did not. (And as she pointed out, this specific scenario is not at all representative of women in the workforce.)

The place where I want you to be more critical is in your assumption that the fact that a field is female-dominated automatically means that males who enter it face stigma. Unfortunately, the evidence, as I pointed out, indicates that males in female-dominated fields are rewarded above their female counterparts, so your example is in error.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'd like to say something about "Lesbian" porn. It's a misnomer. A more accurate way to put it would be Woman on Woman porn. I mean, have you ever watched that stuff and seen anything but the same exact type of women who are in all the other "normal" porn out there? Have you ever seen a slim, short-haired, androgynous or male-expressive woman on one end? I'm not saying all lesbian couples have this gender expression, I'm just saying that the term Lesbian Porn is just a marketing term. They just leave the dudes out and use the same women, and it is very much a part of same cycle.

We can't pretend the porn industry, generally, has any interest in pushing feminist interests, and I think we can agree that that most lesbians are at least somewhat concerned with those very interests. It sets yet another ridiculous standard for women, it is just another Candybar Wrapper for people to chew them up and spit them out, and brings the issue of gender expression and all its complexity down to something well and truly stupid or ignores it completely. It's a little thing, but it bugs the fuck out of me.
***
As for workplace stigma, being a male LMT is extremely difficult.
The reason most people want a massage from a woman is because A)they're male and do not want a man touching them for, well, I'm guessing a heap of sexual repression and/or projection (saying to themselves "I would want to do something inappropriate, so he must".) or B) they're female and they don't want a man to touch them. The latter I understand more, but is still frustrating. I do not, however, blame them. I blame a prudish society that obviously doesn't take care of itself enough to take steps to prevent the things that happen to women that make them afraid that someone who is paid to make them feel good is going to take advantage of them.

I've tried to focus a practice working with gay men only, but you can imagine how that turned out...which was a shame.

Now, this is definitely an field in which it seems that women have the advantage... although, I also wonder how heavily that's affected by working in Alaska, and also how closely the experience of female massage therapists in Alaska doing massage on straight men mirrors your experiences doing massage on gay men.

Also I am regretting not asking you for a backrub while you were here, because my back is a mess all the time and I can't afford a damn massage.

[Salty]

I'd like to say something about "Lesbian" porn. It's a misnomer. A more accurate way to put it would be Woman on Woman porn. I mean, have you ever watched that stuff and seen anything but the same exact type of women who are in all the other "normal" porn out there? Have you ever seen a slim, short-haired, androgynous or male-expressive woman on one end? I'm not saying all lesbian couples have this gender expression, I'm just saying that the term Lesbian Porn is just a marketing term. They just leave the dudes out and use the same women, and it is very much a part of same cycle.

We can't pretend the porn industry, generally, has any interest in pushing feminist interests, and I think we can agree that that most lesbians are at least somewhat concerned with those very interests. It sets yet another ridiculous standard for women, it is just another Candybar Wrapper for people to chew them up and spit them out, and brings the issue of gender expression and all its complexity down to something well and truly stupid or ignores it completely. It's a little thing, but it bugs the fuck out of me.
***
As for workplace stigma, being a male LMT is extremely difficult.
The reason most people want a massage from a woman is because A)they're male and do not want a man touching them for, well, I'm guessing a heap of sexual repression and/or projection (saying to themselves "I would want to do something inappropriate, so he must".) or B) they're female and they don't want a man to touch them. The latter I understand more, but is still frustrating. I do not, however, blame them. I blame a prudish society that obviously doesn't take care of itself enough to take steps to prevent the things that happen to women that make them afraid that someone who is paid to make them feel good is going to take advantage of them.

I've tried to focus a practice working with gay men only, but you can imagine how that turned out...which was a shame.

Now, this is definitely an field in which it seems that women have the advantage... although, I also wonder how heavily that's affected by working in Alaska, and also how closely the experience of female massage therapists in Alaska doing massage on straight men mirrors your experiences doing massage on gay men.

Also I am regretting not asking you for a backrub while you were here, because my back is a mess all the time and I can't afford a damn massage.

From what I've gathered it's not quite the same. Gay men sort of casually expect sexual services because, HEY IT'S JUST US GUYS. Straight men are probably up for that most of the time, but too afraid to make the first move, unless they're real pigs. But women get hired a lot more in places that are obviously strictly therapeutic massage, sometimes regardless of skill level, thus eliminating the inevitbale awkwardness of in-home work. I imagine the experience would be similar inhome with both sexes, but I have yet to encounter a female LMT up here who does in home work. With good reason.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Porn is no different from any other entertainment medium - most of it is complete shit. Most music sucks. Most movies suck. Most books suck. Most porn doesn't swallow.

"I'm gonna watch some porn. OOOH, that's hot. Hey, what's that one on the edge of the pile moaning and groaning for? She's not even getting anything. Were those track marks I just saw? This is depressing...EEEEEW, what's the point of giving a blowjob to a strap-on? Hey, here comes a guy! Cool. Oh wait, never mind...FUCK, he's ugly. Why do they always pull it out and jizz all over everybody? Fuck this. Sad world when people have to do that shit. Fuck sex. I guess I'll do the dishes now."

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

ILU FREEKY.


Please provide me with a situation where "female privilege" would exist, Dingo (I'm looking for stats on your assertion regarding the "bi/homosexual females are less likely to be assaulted for being queer" and I gotta tell you, the results are not supporting it. And that's not even including the rape statistics).

In Ohio women are FAR more likely to get custody of children in divorce cases or breakups of non-marriage relationships.

That's the most stark case of female privilege I have seen.  The anecdotal evidence I have that it is not always justified is my co-worker, he works full time, doesn't do drugs or break the law, the only mark against him is that he is heavily tattooed.  His ex GF meanwhile is a regular drug user who keeps being arrested for breaking and entering.  The only reason my co-worker currently has custody of his daughter is because his ex is actually in jail, and as soon as she gets out she gets her back.

There is ample research into this phenomenon and you might be interested to know that the primary reason women are overwhelmingly awarded custody is because men, overwhelmingly, do not contest it. In cases where fathers do petition for custody, they are, statistically speaking, extremely likely to win it.

As in GA's example, I really have to point out that voluntary non-participation does not equal lack of privilege.

[Kai]

If I could find the Unicorn of Non-Exploitative Porn, I'd stop fapping to Literotica.

This to fifty million.

[Juana]

Also: I got into it with one of Garbo's FB people RE: the giant fucking parasite that is the Women's Image Industry.
I was flabbergasted that any woman would feel that men are held to the same standard of appearances that women are because "Men are expected to be in-shape in out society" or similar garbage.

How? How could a woman think that? You go to any newsstand in the US, or most places I imagine, the amount of magazine covers with picture perfect bodies and hair featuring women is staggering compared to...well, say, car magazines? They're about even there. Those with men with 200 million abs and pecs that reach the sun exist, of course, but the simple numbers are, well, beyond debate, really.

Not to mention men are expected to be fit and muscular. Women are expected to be skinny. This expectation seems to come from other women. The expectation from men, generally, seems to be a certain kind of proportion with Sumptuous Hourglass at the top of the list. Either way, they do not allow for the myriad of bodytypes hardwired into your average human.

What I want to know is why in the hell would a woman, in the 21st Century, who is NOT a Fundamentalist not realize this? Why would you want to assume that this is an equal expectation between genders.

I was quite surprised, too, tbh. IDK if she's classify herself as a feminist (it's not something she and I have ever talked about that I can remember) but she's smart enough that I was pretty confused.

I'd like to say something about "Lesbian" porn. It's a misnomer. A more accurate way to put it would be Woman on Woman porn. I mean, have you ever watched that stuff and seen anything but the same exact type of women who are in all the other "normal" porn out there? Have you ever seen a slim, short-haired, androgynous or male-expressive woman on one end? I'm not saying all lesbian couples have this gender expression, I'm just saying that the term Lesbian Porn is just a marketing term. They just leave the dudes out and use the same women, and it is very much a part of same cycle.

We can't pretend the porn industry, generally, has any interest in pushing feminist interests, and I think we can agree that that most lesbians are at least somewhat concerned with those very interests. It sets yet another ridiculous standard for women, it is just another Candybar Wrapper for people to chew them up and spit them out, and brings the issue of gender expression and all its complexity down to something well and truly stupid or ignores it completely. It's a little thing, but it bugs the fuck out of me.
***
As for workplace stigma, being a male LMT is extremely difficult.
The reason most people want a massage from a woman is because A)they're male and do not want a man touching them for, well, I'm guessing a heap of sexual repression and/or projection (saying to themselves "I would want to do something inappropriate, so he must".) or B) they're female and they don't want a man to touch them. The latter I understand more, but is still frustrating. I do not, however, blame them. I blame a prudish society that obviously doesn't take care of itself enough to take steps to prevent the things that happen to women that make them afraid that someone who is paid to make them feel good is going to take advantage of them.

I've tried to focus a practice working with gay men only, but you can imagine how that turned out...which was a shame.

I'm definitely willing to agree with all of this, although there are some deliberately feminist porn producers/magazines out there, which is pretty nice. Many of which seeks to include multiple bodies types for all folk involved, although iirc it's still mostly heterosexual porn (and here's a list because I love PeeDee so!)

Also re: the second part, also I can agree there and would put forth the idea that part of the reluctance to let a dude touch us is due to our training that we're responsible for not being raped (rather than a dude being told "no means no, no matter what or who they are to you" as Waffle's INF pic says).

It's pretty well explained here (tl;dr we have to vigilant at all times, even when it's sort of at the back of your mind. It's really not the dude in question's fault but we also have to be seen as being vigilant. Or else, if it happens, it's our fault.)

Also, yeah, that's super not cool of your gay dude clients.

[Juana]

I think you need to be more critical in your analysis. There are a number of professions which are heavily female-dominated, largely for reasons pertaining to gender-role differentiation. It might not surprise you to find that most nannies are female. However, that has mostly to do with the fact that for many years, these were the only professions that were open to women, and in fact, males wishing to enter these professions faced a stigma (also highly unfair, and a fantastic example of how restricting women's endeavors also oppresses men). Even so, sadly, on average males earn more in these female-dominated jobs than females do, when averaged for experience and skill.

I agree with everything you said, including that the historical reason for this is the oppression of women - Garbo just asked for an example of a situation where men faced a stigma that women did not. (And as she pointed out, this specific scenario is not at all representative of women in the workforce.)

The place where I want you to be more critical is in your assumption that the fact that a field is female-dominated automatically means that males who enter it face stigma. Unfortunately, the evidence, as I pointed out, indicates that males in female-dominated fields are rewarded above their female counterparts, so your example is in error.

Uh-huh. I don't think my dad contested it until I was thirteen or so, and my parents have been divorced since since I was eight.
And he was promptly denied because he's fucking nuts and abusive and was not really capable of supporting three kids at the time anyway, even with child support.

[Phox]

Why? Why is it awkward to be the only person of your gender in a class?

Did their female classmates make fun of them? Ask them why they were in the class? Insinuate things about their body parts or sexual orientation? Treat them poorly in social situations?

Did this treatment translate to the work place?

There doesn't need to be explicit harassment to make minorities feel unwelcome. To the extent that we are socialized in gender-specific ways, there are real differences in the shared experiences that a person would expect to have with another person of the same vs. a different gender. It's always easier to strike up a conversation with someone feel you'll have more in common with. And then there are topics and conversations that are more comfortable to have when it's "just the guys" or "just the girls." People of both genders moderate themselves more or differently in mixed company - and someone of the minority gender picks up on that and feel less included. It might just be that the one guy in the class gets fewer opportunities to bond at a deeper level with his female classmates, or maybe they come to think of him as just one of the girls. Then at least he's included, but the group's acceptance is implicitly conditioned on his not reminding them that he isn't a girl. Even when no one's trying to be sexist, that kind of thing happens.

True, but all of my questions were based explicitly on my first-hand observation of the treatment of women in a certain engineering department with which I am quite familiar. So, I suppose what I'm getting at here, is that while you are correct that there is inequality in numbers in the field of primary education, it does not necessitate discrimination. Personally, if someone feels uncomfortable saying certain things or acting a certain way around a certain gender, then that's THEIR problem. Also, I am not a fan of the "just one of the guys/girls" mentality, as it is both outdated and counterproductive categorization.

To be blunt, I have far less sympathy for men who choose to go into education than I do for women who choose to go into Engineering.

[BabylonHoruv]

Why? Why is it awkward to be the only person of your gender in a class?

Did their female classmates make fun of them? Ask them why they were in the class? Insinuate things about their body parts or sexual orientation? Treat them poorly in social situations?

Did this treatment translate to the work place?

There doesn't need to be explicit harassment to make minorities feel unwelcome. To the extent that we are socialized in gender-specific ways, there are real differences in the shared experiences that a person would expect to have with another person of the same vs. a different gender. It's always easier to strike up a conversation with someone feel you'll have more in common with. And then there are topics and conversations that are more comfortable to have when it's "just the guys" or "just the girls." People of both genders moderate themselves more or differently in mixed company - and someone of the minority gender picks up on that and feel less included. It might just be that the one guy in the class gets fewer opportunities to bond at a deeper level with his female classmates, or maybe they come to think of him as just one of the girls. Then at least he's included, but the group's acceptance is implicitly conditioned on his not reminding them that he isn't a girl. Even when no one's trying to be sexist, that kind of thing happens.

True, but all of my questions were based explicitly on my first-hand observation of the treatment of women in a certain engineering department with which I am quite familiar. So, I suppose what I'm getting at here, is that while you are correct that there is inequality in numbers in the field of primary education, it does not necessitate discrimination. Personally, if someone feels uncomfortable saying certain things or acting a certain way around a certain gender, then that's THEIR problem. Also, I am not a fan of the "just one of the guys/girls" mentality, as it is both outdated and counterproductive categorization.

To be blunt, I have far less sympathy for men who choose to go into education than I do for women who choose to go into Engineering.

My mom  worked in education administration for the majority of my childhood.  There were more female than male teachers, especcially at an elementary level, but the male teachers were in no way victimized by the system.  They had no trouble achieving seniority or pay raises, or positions within the union, they were not harassed at work as far as I am aware, and my mom tended to share all the drama and gossip with me.  Male teachers have nothing to complain about.

[Placid Dingo]

Though male lower primary school teachers I think can have a harder time with getting the lower grades; there's a bit of a practice of putting men in higher grades.

Again, to reiterate, I'm not trying to pull a 'mines worse than yours'.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Though male lower primary school teachers I think can have a harder time with getting the lower grades; there's a bit of a practice of putting men in higher grades.

Again, to reiterate, I'm not trying to pull a 'mines worse than yours'.

What do you mean, "putting" men in higher grades? What are you talking about? Do you work in education, or are you pulling that out of your ass? I know kind of a lot of teachers, both men and women, and it's not like they come out of teacher school and get assigned a grade to teach. They train to teach a certain age range and, if applicable, certain subjects. If a man went to school to become a kindergarten teacher, he wouldn't be arbitrarily forced to teach middle school science classes, nor would a teacher trained to teach high school French be stuck with a bunch of first-graders. At least, that sure as fuck isn't how it works in my state. Teachers here have Masters degrees; they have to. And they specialize. Early childhood education is a specific degree. They aren't interchangeable at the discriminatory whim of administrators.

Maybe things are very very different where you are.

[Placid Dingo]

Yes I work in education. Principals assign teachers to grades. You do specialise but its not a legal prerequisite. I'm a good example; Major in Japanese Minor in English as part of a standard Arts/Education high school teaching degree (13 - 17 year olds). I now teach Japanese in lower primary (11, 12 year olds).

So I never went to seek a primrary degree so maybe in the really early years it's more specialized. But even so, once you're a teacher, with the exception of LOTE and Instrumental, legally you can do pretty much anything in schools. But certainly with male teachers they're more likely to get placed in 5, 6, 7, as opposed to 3, 4 or lower (and I'm pretty sure you don't need a different degree to teach lower).

Double degree batchellor is just one way; The other way to do it is via masters; finish a BA and then add a teaching masters.

So there's not huge differences between the experiences that I know of in education, but there's small things.