A thought on sluts

[Phox]

Relevant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk

The SlutWalk protest marches began on April 3, 2011,[1] in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and became a movement of rallies across the world.[2] Participants protest against explaining or excusing rape by referring to any aspect of a woman's appearance.[3] The rallies began when Constable Michael Sanguinetti, a Toronto Police officer, suggested that to remain safe, "women should avoid dressing like sluts."[4][5] The protest takes the form of a march, mainly by young women, where some dress provocatively, like sluts. There are also speaker meetings and workshops.[6] Some objectors have remarked that this approach is an example of women defining their sexuality in male terms.[7]

I went to one. I even got to lead the chanting once. One of the chants was "Hey hey, ho ho, 100110". <= Not at all relevant, but funny.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

It's a game. It's TOTALLY a game. Winners get laid, losers go onto the next round.

Truth.

I emphatically encourage everyone who likes this game to find the nearest cleaver and fornicates with it.  I fucking despise this game, because as much of a gamer as I am I resent that you can lose at having sex with an interested party, and I don't understand the rules, and some people cheat at it.

Fuck this shit.

Aw, Freeky, if you both stay interested, you still do it.
No game would = no seduction. Just:

"Hi."
"Hi."
"You wanna fuck?"
"Yeah, I guess so."
"OK let's go."

Bullshit.

"Hey."
"Hey."
"Holy jesus I think you are the hottest shit ever."
"Really?  I was thinking the same about you!"
"GET IN MAH PANCE NAO."
"K. "

Just because there aren't any games doesn't mean there doesn't have to be any passion.

Several ways that could go horribly, horribly wrong, that have nothing to do with any kind of perceived "feminine virtue":

1) He looks hot now, but what happens after you know him a little more? Is he borderline retarded? Is he going to install himself on your couch and try to send you to food pantries? WHO IS THIS MOTHERFUCKER?

2) Guys who rush things, whether it's sex or a "serious relationship", are often abusive and almost always controlling. Even if it's just a casual fuckbuddies thing, he's going to think he has some kind of hold on you and can just pop in and knock off a chunk whenever he happens to feel like it. Even if you haven't seen him in a couple of years and you've forgotten him and it's TOTALLY THE WRONG TIME.

3) Next time you're in a so-called serious relationship, look back at the whole thing - what was the best part? The early days. The seduction and then the sex when it was still new. Why not stretch the fun part out as long as you can before everthing gets routine?

4) The fact that he could be one of THOSE GUYS. If you really like him and he turns out to be one of those assholes who thinks you're a jackrag because you put out, you KNOW he's the asshole who's at fault, but it still stings.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

OK, that last one has to do with "perceived feminine virtue"...but it's all in people's heads.

A lot of SEX is in peoples heads, I think. (Shut up with the skullfuck jokes, haha) Anticipation is great.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Aw, Freeky, if you both stay interested, you still do it.
No game would = no seduction. Just:

"Hi."
"Hi."
"You wanna fuck?"
"Yeah, I guess so."
"OK let's go."

sounds good to me.

I'm getting a feeling a lot of people consider suspense and romance and all that disposable.

I LIKE romance. I am not such a huge fan of suspense. The most successful couples I know personally didn't bother with the jerking-each-other-around-emotionally portion of the game... they liked each other, they had sex, they continued to like each other, and the thrill came from getting to know each other and doing things that make each other feel good. Bam. There's your fucking romance! And your romantic fucking.

The people who need the endless up-and-down of suspense and anxiety and not knowing where they stand?

DIVORCEVILLE. Trust me; I'm a three-timer. Thousands of dollars in therapy to figure out what I needed to fix, and I'm not, at this point, confident that it's fixed. I think the main reason people get divorced these days is because of unrealistic societal expectations for what being "in love" looks like. Look at absolutely any romance movie for examples of this.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I heard it defined a little differently, though. I've actually been told that there are "four ranks of women". The person who told me this said he "didn't think that way" but "it's how men think".

Meaning:  He thinks that way, and believes that everyone secretly believes what HE secretly believes.

There are two ranks of people, period.

And WE aren't EITHER ONE.

THIS.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

ETA: I should probably clarify, her behavior is fucked up because it's malicious, not because it's sexual.

This.  "Manipulative jackass" is a better, more accurate term.

Yep.

The most interesting part is that the people she is including in her accusation of slut-shaming her, including myself, are some of the most sex-positive and sexually promiscuous people we know. We just, y'know, try to be RESPONSIBLE WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S FEELINGS while we're fucking whoever we want to fuck, who mutually wants to fuck us.

I do not care for the word "slut" as a pejorative in any sense. Much as you stated earlier, re-defining it to mean "a bad person" is much the same as redefining "nigger" to mean "a low person", and I am, both in the case of the former and in the case of the latter, in favor of reclaiming those words like the queer community has reclaimed "queer".

Among the few people I hold a grudge against are those who have used either the word or the concept of "slut" against me pejoratively. In my opinion, if you hold such a view of women that you will hold their exercise of sexuality against them as an excuse for dismissing them as equal and valid human beings, then you are not a full person and are not worth even a small fraction of my respect, until/unless you can develop enough awareness to realize that you were wrong, and make an appropriate apology.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Aw, Freeky, if you both stay interested, you still do it.
No game would = no seduction. Just:

"Hi."
"Hi."
"You wanna fuck?"
"Yeah, I guess so."
"OK let's go."

sounds good to me.

I'm getting a feeling a lot of people consider suspense and romance and all that disposable.

I LIKE romance. I am not such a huge fan of suspense. The most successful couples I know personally didn't bother with the jerking-each-other-around-emotionally portion of the game... they liked each other, they had sex, they continued to like each other, and the thrill came from getting to know each other and doing things that make each other feel good. Bam. There's your fucking romance! And your romantic fucking.

The people who need the endless up-and-down of suspense and anxiety and not knowing where they stand?

DIVORCEVILLE. Trust me; I'm a three-timer. Thousands of dollars in therapy to figure out what I needed to fix, and I'm not, at this point, confident that it's fixed. I think the main reason people get divorced these days is because of unrealistic societal expectations for what being "in love" looks like. Look at absolutely any romance movie for examples of this.

Probably should have been clearer, I meant suspense during the getting to know each other stage. When you're *just* worried enough to get that SQUEEEEE! feeling when the phone rings. 

Suspense and anxiety after that stage would suck. It's no fun without the brain chemicals. 

And yeah, movies. "Soul mates". 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Another observation I find interesting; "slut" is almost exclusively used to describe a woman who has multiple partners at once, regardless of lifetime number of partners or frequency of finding new partners, rather than to describe serial monogamists. " I have been called a slut by a woman who burned through boyfriends at a mind-boggling rate, despite having fewer new partners in a year's span, because I didn't padlock myself to one guy's dick at a time.

"Slut" seems mostly to mean "Doesn't automatically, reflexively hand control of her vagina to the man she's sleeping with".

I am not at all opposed to monogamy; in fact, I prefer it when I'm in a relationship where monogamy is warranted, which is definitely not defined merely by "is having sex with someone". If/when the relationship moves to a stage when it's time to ask for that level of mutual acknowledgment and commitment, I'm all over it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Relevant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk

The SlutWalk protest marches began on April 3, 2011,[1] in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and became a movement of rallies across the world.[2] Participants protest against explaining or excusing rape by referring to any aspect of a woman's appearance.[3] The rallies began when Constable Michael Sanguinetti, a Toronto Police officer, suggested that to remain safe, "women should avoid dressing like sluts."[4][5] The protest takes the form of a march, mainly by young women, where some dress provocatively, like sluts. There are also speaker meetings and workshops.[6] Some objectors have remarked that this approach is an example of women defining their sexuality in male terms.[7]

Slutwalk was HUGE here this year! Fantastic. My daughter, who is a "virgin" (we'll talk more about that concept at some point) wants to attend next year. I heart my tiny radical!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's a game. It's TOTALLY a game. Winners get laid, losers go onto the next round.

Truth.

I emphatically encourage everyone who likes this game to find the nearest cleaver and fornicates with it.  I fucking despise this game, because as much of a gamer as I am I resent that you can lose at having sex with an interested party, and I don't understand the rules, and some people cheat at it.

Fuck this shit.

Aw, Freeky, if you both stay interested, you still do it.
No game would = no seduction. Just:

"Hi."
"Hi."
"You wanna fuck?"
"Yeah, I guess so."
"OK let's go."

Bullshit.

"Hey."
"Hey."
"Holy jesus I think you are the hottest shit ever."
"Really?  I was thinking the same about you!"
"GET IN MAH PANCE NAO."
"K. "

Just because there aren't any games doesn't mean there doesn't have to be any passion.

Several ways that could go horribly, horribly wrong, that have nothing to do with any kind of perceived "feminine virtue":

1) He looks hot now, but what happens after you know him a little more? Is he borderline retarded? Is he going to install himself on your couch and try to send you to food pantries? WHO IS THIS MOTHERFUCKER?

2) Guys who rush things, whether it's sex or a "serious relationship", are often abusive and almost always controlling. Even if it's just a casual fuckbuddies thing, he's going to think he has some kind of hold on you and can just pop in and knock off a chunk whenever he happens to feel like it. Even if you haven't seen him in a couple of years and you've forgotten him and it's TOTALLY THE WRONG TIME.

3) Next time you're in a so-called serious relationship, look back at the whole thing - what was the best part? The early days. The seduction and then the sex when it was still new. Why not stretch the fun part out as long as you can before everthing gets routine?

4) The fact that he could be one of THOSE GUYS. If you really like him and he turns out to be one of those assholes who thinks you're a jackrag because you put out, you KNOW he's the asshole who's at fault, but it still stings.

1. Then you stop sleeping with him. No harm, no foul.

2. Guys who rush into sex are horny and into you. Guys who try to push sex, or relationships, or commitments are more likely to be abusive/manipulative. Make the distinction. If he starts acting like a jackass, then you stop sleeping with him. No harm, no foul.

3. If the early days are the best part, you probably did it wrong. The early days were, biologically and neurologically speaking, the most EXCITING part, and the excitement/adrenaline is partly because of the lack of security. But long-term couples report being just as much in love as they were in the beginning, and actually report being MORE happy in the relationship over time, once they get through the inevitable crisis points within the first eight years when they experience their first two relationship cycles. Happily, neuroscience backs this up; these couples actually DO have the kind of activation in the particular parts of their brains that signifies romantic love as people who are newly in love.

4. He could turn out to be that jackrag whether or not you have sex with him. So, uh, I guess I'm not seeing the connection.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The ONE valid reason I can think of to hold off on sex is because sex activates bonding hormones, and makes it more likely that you'll end up falling in love with a person who is bad for you.

Which is also an argument for maintaining a few steady lovers until you find one you know is right to make a long-term partnership with, so that you're not deprived of sex and intimacy, are less likely to make a bad choice, and have the comfort and support of another lover if someone you had high hopes for goes south.

[Pope Lecherous]

In my neighborhood we'd say that a man would call a woman a slut because he was mad she would fuck everyone but him, very much in the spirit of the 1st post.  What would i call a slut? A woman who uses sex to achieve ends or station vice pleasure or romance, or to "buy in" as if it were something to be bartered or offered up in lieu of some trait or quality that is inherently valuable. 

[Freeky]

The ONE valid reason I can think of to hold off on sex is because sex activates bonding hormones, and makes it more likely that you'll end up falling in love with a person who is bad for you.

Which is also an argument for maintaining a few steady lovers until you find one you know is right to make a long-term partnership with, so that you're not deprived of sex and intimacy, are less likely to make a bad choice, and have the comfort and support of another lover if someone you had high hopes for goes south.

I agree with both of these.

Stella, the "Hey, hey" in my situational thingy could be the place where you get to know someone.  Or not.

I hate hate hate not knowing where I stand.  Hate hate hate.  I can't go on long enough about how much being jerked about emotionally pisses me off, especially since I don't do that to other people.  I'm awkward at being up front with what I want and need as it is, I don't need another layer to deal with stupid sex games.

[EK WAFFLR]

ETA: I should probably clarify, her behavior is fucked up because it's malicious, not because it's sexual.

This.  "Manipulative jackass" is a better, more accurate term.

Yep.

The most interesting part is that the people she is including in her accusation of slut-shaming her, including myself, are some of the most sex-positive and sexually promiscuous people we know. We just, y'know, try to be RESPONSIBLE WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S FEELINGS while we're fucking whoever we want to fuck, who mutually wants to fuck us.

I do not care for the word "slut" as a pejorative in any sense. Much as you stated earlier, re-defining it to mean "a bad person" is much the same as redefining "nigger" to mean "a low person", and I am, both in the case of the former and in the case of the latter, in favor of reclaiming those words like the queer community has reclaimed "queer".

Among the few people I hold a grudge against are those who have used either the word or the concept of "slut" against me pejoratively. In my opinion, if you hold such a view of women that you will hold their exercise of sexuality against them as an excuse for dismissing them as equal and valid human beings, then you are not a full person and are not worth even a small fraction of my respect, until/unless you can develop enough awareness to realize that you were wrong, and make an appropriate apology.

The book I linked to earlier in the thread is trying to do just that, reclaim the word "slut" as a positive term for, as an example, non- monogamous people of any gender.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

It's a game. It's TOTALLY a game. Winners get laid, losers go onto the next round.

Truth.

I emphatically encourage everyone who likes this game to find the nearest cleaver and fornicates with it.  I fucking despise this game, because as much of a gamer as I am I resent that you can lose at having sex with an interested party, and I don't understand the rules, and some people cheat at it.

Fuck this shit.

Aw, Freeky, if you both stay interested, you still do it.
No game would = no seduction. Just:

"Hi."
"Hi."
"You wanna fuck?"
"Yeah, I guess so."
"OK let's go."

Bullshit.

"Hey."
"Hey."
"Holy jesus I think you are the hottest shit ever."
"Really?  I was thinking the same about you!"
"GET IN MAH PANCE NAO."
"K. "

Just because there aren't any games doesn't mean there doesn't have to be any passion.

Several ways that could go horribly, horribly wrong, that have nothing to do with any kind of perceived "feminine virtue":

1) He looks hot now, but what happens after you know him a little more? Is he borderline retarded? Is he going to install himself on your couch and try to send you to food pantries? WHO IS THIS MOTHERFUCKER?

2) Guys who rush things, whether it's sex or a "serious relationship", are often abusive and almost always controlling. Even if it's just a casual fuckbuddies thing, he's going to think he has some kind of hold on you and can just pop in and knock off a chunk whenever he happens to feel like it. Even if you haven't seen him in a couple of years and you've forgotten him and it's TOTALLY THE WRONG TIME.

3) Next time you're in a so-called serious relationship, look back at the whole thing - what was the best part? The early days. The seduction and then the sex when it was still new. Why not stretch the fun part out as long as you can before everthing gets routine?

4) The fact that he could be one of THOSE GUYS. If you really like him and he turns out to be one of those assholes who thinks you're a jackrag because you put out, you KNOW he's the asshole who's at fault, but it still stings.

1. Then you stop sleeping with him. No harm, no foul.

2. Guys who rush into sex are horny and into you. Guys who try to push sex, or relationships, or commitments are more likely to be abusive/manipulative. Make the distinction. If he starts acting like a jackass, then you stop sleeping with him. No harm, no foul.

3. If the early days are the best part, you probably did it wrong. The early days were, biologically and neurologically speaking, the most EXCITING part, and the excitement/adrenaline is partly because of the lack of security. But long-term couples report being just as much in love as they were in the beginning, and actually report being MORE happy in the relationship over time, once they get through the inevitable crisis points within the first eight years when they experience their first two relationship cycles. Happily, neuroscience backs this up; these couples actually DO have the kind of activation in the particular parts of their brains that signifies romantic love as people who are newly in love.

4. He could turn out to be that jackrag whether or not you have sex with him. So, uh, I guess I'm not seeing the connection.

I'm not gonna throw down the gauntlet. Because Nigel knows her shit, and I might NEED this.

Tell me more about "the inevitable crisis points within the first eight years when they experience their first two relationship cycles"?

Stelz
Is a backwoods yahoo and has been winging it.