Egalitarianism

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

For me it is more individual behavior than social critique or even political statement. I will not conduct myself in a way that gives consideration to stereotypes or prejudice, and I won't tolerate those around me doing that either. Beyond that, I try to spread that position. It is enough work examining myself and my own actions and eliminating those behaviors.

Yes, but without critiquing society, how are you supposed to change some of the more subtle parts of your behavior or call out people who do those self-same things? I have no idea whether or not the pussy/cunt discussion changed your opinion of the words, but would you have thought of it if someone else hadn't brought it up?

That has merely illustrated - once again, because I'm a slow learner - that the moment a Discordian allows ANYTHING to offend him/her, that Discordian has allowed society (even inside of Discordianism) to jam a steering wheel up his/her ass, to be driven hither and yon.

Personally, I've decided to not use a few words.  But I also learned about the steering wheel again, and I saw first hand who had one up their colon, and who didn't.  I did.  I don't now.

So I see precisely no value in this.

I disagree with this, and it sounds like butthurt.

But it is, alternately, possible that I am wrong, and that it is time for Discordianism and I to part ways because it doesn't fit me or my objectives anymore.

THIS.  Things have got pretty heated recently here, and the range from passive aggressive snarking to butthurt and repeating and rephrasing myself until I'm blue in the fucking face is tiring and ultimately boring, as I can get exactly the same responses when I point out in IRL that rape jokes that mock survivors of sexual assault can trigger PTSD in those people and that I don't find that funny. The cries of "your censoring meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" from people who would recoil in horror at a openly hostile racist joke to "I was only joking, god your humourless!" weak assed weaksauce excuses for not actually thinking about the shit that comes out of your mouth and the effect or impressions it will leave on another.  This was not the response I expected from PeeDee.

Being told that "the world is full of assholes, deal with it" is not part of my Discordia.  All me, Nigel and Garbo have been saying is that "this shit sucks, lets talk about it and become more aware of it.".  You cannot change a damned thing by not thinking about something and being dismissive or butthurt. My Discordia hates apathy with the power of 1000 suns going supernova.

If we can't discuss things without kneejerking and not attempt at reaching an understanding of the other person's point then maybe we're all fucking deluding ourselves about being the bipedal superior mutants.

and sadly, that is not My Discordia.

[Faust]

This isn't so much about the content, but the user audience. Before the handover from Lauren the site was completely not work safe, offensive, with a lot of stuff that would upset the current audience.
It's a tradeoff between complete posting liberty and having a wider audience, we're no longer using that model. I haven't explicitly seen any rape jokes here but they don't really mesh.

The initial mission plan after the handover was complete posting liberty as long as what is read is worksafe and legal. As time has gone by it's become more complex with some other rules added.

We would rather the site remain self policing, if someone makes a rape joke for example they should be called on it by others, preferrably not mods, its not something we should have a rule against. For more blatently shocking stuff that could get people into trouble we will intervene but we would rather not have to.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

This isn't so much about the content, but the user audience. Before the handover from Lauren the site was completely not work safe, offensive, with a lot of stuff that would upset the current audience.
It's a tradeoff between complete posting liberty and having a wider audience, we're no longer using that model. I haven't explicitly seen any rape jokes here but they don't really mesh.

The initial mission plan after the handover was complete posting liberty as long as what is read is worksafe and legal. As time has gone by it's become more complex with some other rules added.

We would rather the site remain self policing, if someone makes a rape joke for example they should be called on it by others, preferrably not mods, its not something we should have a rule against. For more blatently shocking stuff that could get people into trouble we will intervene but we would rather not have to.

I was using rape jokes as an example, I wasn't complaining about people making rape jokes at the expense of the victim on peedee.

it's the reactions that I'm making the point on,  because by and large it has been the same kind of response I get from a lot of people when in IRL I make the point about rape jokes when we were talking about gendered insults. I was trying to draw a parallel.

Am I really being so vague that what I am trying to say is unclear? it didn't seem so in the Reddit Rapist thread.


Oh, and I've just rephrased my point for the 100th time.

Fuck this shit, it seems pretty futile.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Being told that "the world is full of assholes, deal with it" is not part of my Discordia.  All me, Nigel and Garbo have been saying is that "this shit sucks, lets talk about it and become more aware of it.".  You cannot change a damned thing by not thinking about something and being dismissive or butthurt. My Discordia hates apathy with the power of 1000 suns going supernova.

Whether you deal with it or not, the world is still full of assholes.

Regardless of how much you talk about it or how aware of it you are, the world is still full of assholes

Speaking personally, I'm hyper aware of the assholes thing already, I'm bored talking about it but, if and when you're done with the talking and the awareness thing, come and have a chat about how to deal with the asshole problem. Oh wait, that's right, you're not interested in dealing, just talking and being aware, right?

Personally I'm more interested in pissing off assholes using the power of my middle finger than arguing over taxonomy but it's a free country. Have your burger however you want it.

[The Johnny]

Faust, i dont think anyone is making a case for censorship of ideas and expressions.

Thats all im going to say.

[Faust]

This isn't so much about the content, but the user audience. Before the handover from Lauren the site was completely not work safe, offensive, with a lot of stuff that would upset the current audience.
It's a tradeoff between complete posting liberty and having a wider audience, we're no longer using that model. I haven't explicitly seen any rape jokes here but they don't really mesh.

The initial mission plan after the handover was complete posting liberty as long as what is read is worksafe and legal. As time has gone by it's become more complex with some other rules added.

We would rather the site remain self policing, if someone makes a rape joke for example they should be called on it by others, preferrably not mods, its not something we should have a rule against. For more blatently shocking stuff that could get people into trouble we will intervene but we would rather not have to.

I was using rape jokes as an example, I wasn't complaining about people making rape jokes at the expense of the victim on peedee.

it's the reactions that I'm making the point on,  because by and large it has been the same kind of response I get from a lot of people when in IRL I make the point about rape jokes when we were talking about gendered insults. I was trying to draw a parallel.

Am I really being so vague that what I am trying to say is unclear? it didn't seem so in the Reddit Rapist thread.


Oh, and I've just rephrased my point for the 100th time.

Fuck this shit, it seems pretty futile.

Sorry if I misunderstood,
I think I get it, the focus on the reactions people give when confronted on as you called them gendered insults, most people automatically get on the defensive. The argument they make is often as you said self sensorship and the distain for it.

I'm I getting closer now?

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Being told that "the world is full of assholes, deal with it" is not part of my Discordia.  All me, Nigel and Garbo have been saying is that "this shit sucks, lets talk about it and become more aware of it.".  You cannot change a damned thing by not thinking about something and being dismissive or butthurt. My Discordia hates apathy with the power of 1000 suns going supernova.

Whether you deal with it or not, the world is still full of assholes.

Regardless of how much you talk about it or how aware of it you are, the world is still full of assholes

Speaking personally, I'm hyper aware of the assholes thing already, I'm bored talking about it but, if and when you're done with the talking and the awareness thing, come and have a chat about how to deal with the asshole problem. Oh wait, that's right, you're not interested in dealing, just talking and being aware, right?

Personally I'm more interested in pissing off assholes using the power of my middle finger than arguing over taxonomy but it's a free country. Have your burger however you want it.

who says I'm not interested in fixing shit? where have I demonstrated or said that? You cannot understand what needs fixing and why without a discussion though, especially if it is not something that is in yours or someone close to you's direct experience.

Telling Garbo to hack her own head is fine, but if you stop there and don't call your friends out on creepy behaviour so we don't always HAVE to second guess our instincts and we can all get laid with respectful impunity later down the line.   Not understanding how something works leads to trying to fix a puncture with a stiletto knife.

When someone "fixes" an issue without actually taking into account the experience of the people on the receiving end of it you get all the shit with ATOS and disability and sickness benefits, where you get an arbitrary score that decides how much money or help you get, with no nuance or understanding of conditions that fluctuate, and people being deemed fit to work whilst they are in fucking comas, or having their money being taken away because they were in hospital having spinal surgery, and some asshat didn't send the documented proof to the right person.  You can't fix something unless you understand how it is broken, and the needs of the people that experience that broken piece of the social ecosystem.

Gah, I wish I could make all dudes women for a year on their 25th birthday, and have them report back on how it feels to walk a mile in crippling heels. Because the playing with the boobs thing would probably get old after the first couple weeks, and maybe it would help some.

actually fuck this noise. I'm going around in circles and I could probably be enjoying something else instead of getting frustrated.

I'll just go back to posting emoticons, one liners and mittens, and having someone moan that we have no content.

[P3nT4gR4m]

In my experience none of these things ever make it past the planning stage. Something about being too busy arguing about what the problem is, who's to blame and how best to go about solving it. These arguments go round in circles, on earth just as it is in internets and nothing changes and, lo and behold, the world is still full of assholes.

So I'm sorry but no, I'm not interested in dialogue and establishing just exactly what flavour of indignant butthurt everyone is operating with and how diddums can't hold up their middle finger cos they hurted it.

If hacking your own head is difficult, hacking a planet full of heads that don't want to be hacked is the last word in futility.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

This isn't so much about the content, but the user audience. Before the handover from Lauren the site was completely not work safe, offensive, with a lot of stuff that would upset the current audience.
It's a tradeoff between complete posting liberty and having a wider audience, we're no longer using that model. I haven't explicitly seen any rape jokes here but they don't really mesh.

The initial mission plan after the handover was complete posting liberty as long as what is read is worksafe and legal. As time has gone by it's become more complex with some other rules added.

We would rather the site remain self policing, if someone makes a rape joke for example they should be called on it by others, preferrably not mods, its not something we should have a rule against. For more blatently shocking stuff that could get people into trouble we will intervene but we would rather not have to.

I was using rape jokes as an example, I wasn't complaining about people making rape jokes at the expense of the victim on peedee.

it's the reactions that I'm making the point on,  because by and large it has been the same kind of response I get from a lot of people when in IRL I make the point about rape jokes when we were talking about gendered insults. I was trying to draw a parallel.

Am I really being so vague that what I am trying to say is unclear? it didn't seem so in the Reddit Rapist thread.


Oh, and I've just rephrased my point for the 100th time.

Fuck this shit, it seems pretty futile.

Sorry if I misunderstood,
I think I get it, the focus on the reactions people give when confronted on as you called them gendered insults, most people automatically get on the defensive. The argument they make is often as you said self sensorship and the distain for it.

I'm I getting closer now?

Pretty much, but where it falls down is that self-censorship isn't really censorship, it's just thinking before you open your fat gob on whether what you are going to say will make you seem like an asshole.

In my experience none of these things ever make it past the planning stage. Something about being too busy arguing about what the problem is, who's to blame and how best to go about solving it. These arguments go round in circles, on earth just as it is in internets and nothing changes and, lo and behold, the world is still full of assholes.

So I'm sorry but no, I'm not interested in dialogue and establishing just exactly what flavour of indignant butthurt everyone is operating with and how diddums can't hold up their middle finger cos they hurted it.

If hacking your own head is difficult, hacking a planet full of heads that don't want to be hacked is the last word in futility.

And coming across as a patronising and condescending jerkass doesn't help the situation either.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Pretty much, but where it falls down is that self-censorship isn't really censorship, it's just thinking before you open your fat gob on whether what you are going to say will make you seem like an asshole.

Yes. This plus whether you want to seem like an asshole to whomever. I won't use the C-word in front of someone I judge as being nice and likely to be offended by it. I don't want to offend some people. Other people? Assholes, f'rinstance - hell yeah, I want to make their ears bleed. That shit is just plain funny. Horses for courses.

Usually it's pretty straightforward - I'll use a word, because it's one that I use regularly and someone will ask me not to cos it bugs them. Will I use it again? Depends how they ask. If they're polite about it, and put it to me as a request then, yeah I can respect that. I'll try to stop saying it while I'm around them. If they get all condescendy and lectury and go off on some hobby horse about how I'm what's wrong with the world then it's middle finger time.

[Freeky]

So I'm sorry but no, I'm not interested in dialogue and establishing just exactly what flavour of indignant butthurt everyone is operating with and how diddums can't hold up their middle finger cos they hurted it.

Congratulations on achieving greyface, pent. Or possibly French citizenship.

[P3nT4gR4m]

So I'm sorry but no, I'm not interested in dialogue and establishing just exactly what flavour of indignant butthurt everyone is operating with and how diddums can't hold up their middle finger cos they hurted it.

Congratulations on achieving greyface, pent. Or possibly French citizenship.

Thanks. Better to be compared to the French than the fucking Cambodians.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

For me, its all about fixing myself. Just like any other aspect of my life. Self-analysis and modification of my BiP. If I happen to be able to encourage a change in someone elses BiP, great... if not, well its their prison, I can't force it to change. Critiquing society is something that I see as core to Discordianism. I see two critiques of society in this discussion. The first is using words that may unintentionally offend others. The second is getting offended by words, rather than actions.

I've never bought into the idea that we could 'fix' people through Discordianism. I think people have to fix themselves. Discordianism provides a nice set of props and memes and ideas that can be used to discuss, jar or encourage changes in others, but I think that's about as far as it goes. I feel similarly about Egalitarianism. I know how I want to see the world and I will spend my life trying my best to see the world that way. I hope that my world view is contagious and other people choose to do the same, but I don't think its something I can enforce. I would love to see some Discordian writings on some of the topics we've discussed. I think they'd make excellent content for Discordian literature. They might even help some poor spag that reads them.

On the topic of butthurt and being disappointed in Discordianism... welcome to the world of Discordianism. Some people think that ideas like magic (the psychology), drugs, libertarian philosophy, anarchism etc etc are all important topics in their Discordianism. Sometimes they find other Discordians that agree, sometimes they find Discordians that poomp on such ideas. That's Discordianism. Hell, that we got 50 pages without devolving into a shouting match and dozens of pictures or bad porn trying to get people to STFU seems like a huge win in my book.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

For me it is more individual behavior than social critique or even political statement. I will not conduct myself in a way that gives consideration to stereotypes or prejudice, and I won't tolerate those around me doing that either. Beyond that, I try to spread that position. It is enough work examining myself and my own actions and eliminating those behaviors.

Yes, but without critiquing society, how are you supposed to change some of the more subtle parts of your behavior or call out people who do those self-same things? I have no idea whether or not the pussy/cunt discussion changed your opinion of the words, but would you have thought of it if someone else hadn't brought it up?

Yes but in critiquing society, can we not do so without eating the menu? Is it possible to see broad inequality, remedy those to the extent that each us as individuals can, without getting bogged down in the "appropriate" verbiage to use when interacting with Lesbian Midget Eskimo Albinos?

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

For me it is more individual behavior than social critique or even political statement. I will not conduct myself in a way that gives consideration to stereotypes or prejudice, and I won't tolerate those around me doing that either. Beyond that, I try to spread that position. It is enough work examining myself and my own actions and eliminating those behaviors.

Yes, but without critiquing society, how are you supposed to change some of the more subtle parts of your behavior or call out people who do those self-same things? I have no idea whether or not the pussy/cunt discussion changed your opinion of the words, but would you have thought of it if someone else hadn't brought it up?

That has merely illustrated - once again, because I'm a slow learner - that the moment a Discordian allows ANYTHING to offend him/her, that Discordian has allowed society (even inside of Discordianism) to jam a steering wheel up his/her ass, to be driven hither and yon.

Personally, I've decided to not use a few words.  But I also learned about the steering wheel again, and I saw first hand who had one up their colon, and who didn't.  I did.  I don't now.

So I see precisely no value in this.

THIS!

Forgive me for taking what I consider to be great life advice from an 80's thrash band but:

Just cause you don't understand what's going on
...don't mean it don't make no sense
And just cause you don't like it,
...don't mean it ain't no good
And let me tell you something
Before you go taking a walk in my world,
...you better take a look at the real world
Cause this ain't no Mr. Rogers Neighborhood
Can you say "feel like shit?"
Yea maybe sometimes I do feel like shit
I ain't happy about it, but I'd rather feel like shit
...than be full of shit!
And if I offended you, Oh I'm sorry
But, maybe you needed to be offended
But here's my apology and one more thing...Fuck you!
Cause you can't bring me down

What appears to me to be the proper friction in all these threads is the lack of an acknowledgement that the signal is independent from the receiver. If the signal offends you, that's YOUR OFFENSE. The signal is not offensive, the sender is not offending you, you have offense...that's it. Discordianism, to my mind, places a clear distinction between what's out there and how each us takes what's out there.

Egalitarianism to me means, quite simply, I'm responsible for what I put out, I'm responsible for how I receive what's put out, I'm responsible for my mind for my self, and fuck the rest. I respect others to be quite the same and if they tell me they think I'm being an asshole I weigh it and say, "Good point, I'll stop," or "Fuck off."

Does that mean inequality's all in our head? Fuck no. It simply means that inequality's not going to be remedied by toeing any lines. It's only going to be remedied when each all every one of us does what the fuck we want...and when that is the whole of the law.