The Deciders

[Juana]

I am really motherfucking tired of arguing with you over your ridiculous quibbling, RWHN.

Ultimate Deciders are, yes, the wealthy white men who run our society from top to bottom.

But Deciders (in again, broad cultural strokes, a point you have conceded) are still SWM. When you enfranchise the rest of us, we can fucking talk.

most women find that their male coworkers, especially white male coworkers, have a tendency to simply take over. They think they're helping, and they're just doing what they have been indoctrinated to do since childhood; they're fulfilling a gender role given to them by society.

Not so sold on this, tho. I'm not ruling it out completely, just thinking about the testosterone-factor which I think figures in there as well. In an all male environment, all things equal, the biggest, loudest one will generally take charge.

I'm not sure what the point of this comment is, Pent.

[P3nT4gR4m]

most women find that their male coworkers, especially white male coworkers, have a tendency to simply take over. They think they're helping, and they're just doing what they have been indoctrinated to do since childhood; they're fulfilling a gender role given to them by society.

Not so sold on this, tho. I'm not ruling it out completely, just thinking about the testosterone-factor which I think figures in there as well. In an all male environment, all things equal, the biggest, loudest one will generally take charge.

I'm not sure what the point of this comment is, Pent.

What I'm getting at is that, even without whatever ammount of indoctrination, I think men would try to take over anyway. i'm not arguing that there is no cultural element at play, just that I think at least part of it is down to the way men are wired.

[Juana]

Men are wired that way by our culture, not by some sort of innate biology.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Men are wired that way by our culture, not by some sort of innate biology.

Yes. That's what I'm arguing against. I think it's a mixture of both.

[LMNO]

I think I see what's up.  The biology is there, but it's encouraged and enforced by culture.  In a culture that did not reward that kind of behavior, the hormonal drives would be channeled into a behavior that IS rewarded.

Or something.

[Juana]

No.

I can't remember the name of the group, but there's one where the man/woman roles are 100% reversed. Men are supposed to be "soft", women are supposed to be stoic and aggressive.
It's cultural wiring. Not the shit you're born with (in fact, your culture is the thing that does a lot of the wiring in the first place).

[P3nT4gR4m]

I think I see what's up.  The biology is there, but it's encouraged and enforced by culture.  In a culture that did not reward that kind of behavior, the hormonal drives would be channeled into a behavior that IS rewarded.

Or something.

Zing! How do you think the culture got that way in the first place? It's chicken and egg. This is an important thing to get straight because I suspect the solution will be quite different in both cases.

[Juana]

Seriously. No.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Seriously. No.

Empirically?

[Juana]

Seriously. No.

Empirically?

Empirically.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100803113150.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Latest+Science+News%29 (taken from a legit journal)
http://www.cordeliafine.com/delusions_of_gender.html (some elements of this book need to be read critically, though)
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=girl-brain-boy-brain

[P3nT4gR4m]

Seriously. No.

Empirically?

Empirically.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100803113150.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Latest+Science+News%29 (taken from a legit journal)
http://www.cordeliafine.com/delusions_of_gender.html (some elements of this book need to be read critically, though)
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=girl-brain-boy-brain

So your contention is that biology has no effect on behaviour? It's all culturally programmed? is that right?

[Juana]

No, it does, to some extent. BUT the idea that "men are aggressive because nature makes them so" isn't accurate. They're aggressive because that's how society wants them.

[AFK]

Again, as a broad cultural discussion it is one thing, but when you are actually talking to and addressing the cohort of SWMs, you WILL alienate those who don't actually have the life experience and privilege you are ascribing to them.

In other words, we need to not tell straight white males that we find some of their behaviors alienating, because it will alienate them?

I think you are illustrating my point very well, RWHN.

Sure, if a SWM is alienating you with their behavior call em out on it.  But I don't think it is fair to call out the entire demographic nor is it fair to infer they are something they are not, that being someone who has power and influence when they feel very powerless and uninfluential due to their life circumstances.

[P3nT4gR4m]

No, it does, to some extent. BUT the idea that "men are aggressive because nature makes them so" isn't accurate. They're aggressive because that's how society wants them.

I can't get my head around that. Why does society want them that way? Society happened because of us, not the other way around.

[AFK]

I am really motherfucking tired of arguing with you over your ridiculous quibbling, RWHN.

Ultimate Deciders are, yes, the wealthy white men who run our society from top to bottom.

But Deciders (in again, broad cultural strokes, a point you have conceded) are still SWM. When you enfranchise the rest of us, we can fucking talk.

Oh, so now we have two levels of Deciders?


Which one is the poor SWM?